What I consider CHEATING in Animation
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2024
- In this video, I talk about my opinions on what is considered Working Smart, Cheating, and the worst of all: Stealing.
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Wow REFERENCE?! Not in MY Animators
Holy crap you're here! Two of my fav art boi's in the same video! 😱
I love your videos mate! Especially how you both do character design and help with stories. Could you do a video on redemption arcs?
:0
Hey, I subbed to your channel. I really like the way you designed your characters...very iconic!
WOAH HI!!
Sometimes the border of being cheater-artist and a true artist is just so bias and the community always make a ridiculous debate about it.
I think cheating is considered when you most likely copy something that someone else drew just so it looks exactly like theirs, just because someone likes how it looks doesn't mean they should copy it to have their own, as for animation it's ok to use a reference since it's nearly impossible to simply come with fluid animation without it.
I find it amusing this debate over "cheating" when historically artists always used the more advanced technologycal tools in their reach at their time, for the practice of their craft, specially in the West, when for long Art was married with scientific practice: the camera obscura for better realism, mirrors to study simetry, the use of math and perspective, optics and color theory , use of grids for copy, developement of better pigments using alchemy and later chemistry, caliphers to measure proportions in sculpture, photography and afterwards video as references, etc, etc.
This "debate" I think is what remains of the ideological Romanticism, when some people suddendly decided that Art came only from internal contemplation, inspiration or delivered by the muses or the gods or something (a view already widely shared by non artists), therefore uncomprehensible, instead of a craft that can be learned and has its own techniques and tools. Anything not adjusted to that view was declared non art.
I think is good time people goes beyond that. The tools may vary but as long as the Artist has an idea of what he wants to create, it doesn't matter the tools used to reach the result he is looking for.
There was a girl (can't remember her name) but she made a full metal alchemist fanart and during her sketch phase she traced just to figure out where the characters would go. She posted the unfinished artwork online and now there are hate videos about her being a cheater. I would say she was just working smart if you go by the definition in this video.
@@PirateOfTheNorth you are talking about Holly brown I believe, I sorta agree (but she is also pretty shitty as a person)
@@justsomeonewholikestodraw6309 I don't know her so can't really comment on her character.
I hate it when people use terms like "cheating" when talking about creative pursuits. Look, we're trying to *make* shit. So what if we can make it faster?
IT MAKES ME JEALOUS THAT YOU FOUND SMARTER WAYS TO DO STUFF WHILE I BROKE MY BACK DOING THE IMPOSSIBLE FOR 12 YEARS SO IM GONNA CRY AND WHINE INSTEAD OF LEARNING FROM YOU CAUSE MY PRIDE IS TO BIG. WHAAAAAAA!!!!!
@@chokichocat3083 This is so accurate
idk man sounds like an art teacher who won't accept the new era
I know! Like dude let me make stuff in peace
Learning a FASTER more EFFICIENT way to animate?? You're cheating!
"A lot of idiots think that reference is cheating"
The best sentence i heard in a while
How
@@billwilliamson783 people think it's like tracing and shit like that
It really boggles my mind how sometimes the community can't see an obvious plagiariser and yet make a big stink about someone having the same idea (without even knowing each other) on like a drawing on instagram
Most people online are loose-knit fans of a particular type of art, medium, theme, style, character, franchise, artist or etc. They aren't artists themselves or in the know. When it comes to art and individual works, they can't recognize the source material, what it may pays homage to or what inspired the work. They only know how it makes them feel as they view it superficially. 3-CPO from Star Wars is inspired by the film "Metropolis" and the machine man character. Most people only see 3-CPO and have no connection to the robot that inspired his design.
There are plenty of Pinterest Boards that are vast collections of art from many different artists that simply spark the user's interest. Even if the boards were to include plagiarized works, most viewers wouldn't even be able to recognize them. Artists may be quick to call them out within their circles, yet the drama doesn't reach most people. In fact, most people may not care and continue to enjoy the plagiarized work. Especially if they came to know and love the plagiarized work before discovering the original work. Look at a film like "A Fist Full Of Dollars", few know its lifted from a film called "Yojimbo". And despite that fact being well known, it's still not common knowledge.
Many creatives are hyper-critical of themselves. If they aren't producing popular and original work, then they feel their time and effort was all for not. Creatives will actively avoid art and media that might tread the same ground as another person's work. So, in the event that their work is similar to another, they have the excuse that they couldn't have possibly drawn inspiration from it or copied it. Still, artists need to be first and/or more popular than the potential "rival-work" by the majority of ignorant viewers. Nothing is worst than being compared to a rival work, called a shameless clone of it (even if its an unfounded claim), and be left in obscurity by the more popular work.
*My Experience*
I had the same experience after writing a story set in the early 1900s. My story was quickly compared to a popular movie that had come out a few weeks before. A movie I had never seen, had actively avoided its trailers and refused to learn any information about. I feared seeing similarities in my work, and knowing I was treading the same ground; even if it was coincidental. I hoped I was only being paranoid. I didn't want to watch it and have to change "My Story" because of "Their Story". Yet, reviews still made the comparison, but without much insight as to why or the details. So, chose to hate the movie, thinking it was the reason my story wasn't doing well. It was because of this inferior movie, in my mind, that my readers thought I had plagiarized my story.
After months, I finally decided to watch the movie and see for myself. To my surprise they were not the same. The reviewers were looking at the superficial details of both works and couldn't separate how they were different. Just because both stories took place in a city at the turn of the century and involved a young protagonist. However, all similarities ended there. Much in the same way that people would compare "ANTZ and "A Bug's Life" or "Stand By Me" and "The Goonies", and not understand how they differ. Neither are a rip off of the other despite the similarities.
I believe that is why plagiarism appears to go unnoticed, but the fear of similar works that may be misconstrue as plagiarism is so high and talked about. Just my $19.99 with shipping and handling.
@@ObiTrev Yeah I can understand the worry of having thought up an idea not knowing something similar was done before it.
@@ObiTrev hah I avoid looking at other people's art too lol!
Oh, you really, really, really wont like deviantart then. I have such a hard time distinguishing trolls from real people at this point, its that bad.
@@Maddiedoggie You're not the only one.
"Copying one person is plagiarism, copying from multiple is research."
-too lazy to search who said.
this comment's replies are an irony, and i like it.
I read in an article sometime ago that it was probably said by Wallace Notestein.
Really great quote
that is, as long as none of the copied material makes it into the final work
@@acorneroftheinternet4179 Id agree with this if its things like artistic choice and angles etc but if I look up how a certain flower looks in winter from multiple searches then thats just life itself. ( For anyone who reads this chain and asks that because yes it HAS somehow happened)
@@XonixDerps thats true, and I guess for small things like that its less of poor practice. Still, someone else took that picture and may not appreciate their work being blatantly copied in some animation. You're still better off using it as reference.
@@acorneroftheinternet4179 it's not possible for "none" of the ref to make it into the final work... it's just as long as theres a spin to it or if drawing a type of flower etc then copying what flower looks is nice too
"cheating" is also known as "oh dang, I never had thought about doing thin and now I'm envious and extremely salty because it turns out I was wasting time and effort".
@@aliasmcgames Heavy reference and rotoscoping are both used all the time in the actual animation industry, where you have to be way more efficient than RUclips animators
@@aliasmcgames Theres a guy known as Kim Jung Gi and most people would assume hes natural talent and his skill is so high he never practices - since it seems like he doesnt. But even he has said on his offtime he practices the human body and such with references from life to keep up to shape. Since if you use it from ya mind to much you'll be bound to mess up soon.
@@aliasmcgames you can't work accurately without referencing... that's the entire point of its existence...
@@aliasmcgames I apologize since this is REALLY off topic, but your name is making think of Duck King from the Fatal Fury/ Real Bout Fatal Fury video game series...
What
Only children say references are cheating! What the hell, that’s the only way you’re going to get better!
Not children...
Idiots
the way to get better is to practice- isn’t it?-
gxranium yeah, and references are used to practice
aren’t they?
gxranium If you practice without reference, you will only build up bad habits. Reference makes sure you’re correctly understanding the shape/form/proportions of the item you’re practicing.
@@kales7884 References aren't just for practice, and professional artist will tell you you need to reference for every. Single. Piece. Reference all the time.
Your little dog characters are so friggin cute I can't stand it. I want a full show with them!!!
Ikr, I absolutely want to see more animations about them!
Like BRO I REALLY WANNA SEE THEM BRO actually yeah they're pretty great
yeah! i really felt bad when they bullied the little shiba at the beginning
Me too it always makes me sad to see this happen.This boy is never going to do art again after this and that awful.
I especially love that retriever guy, he's so adorable!
When I was in animation school I always felt guilty for using video reference, even though I usually recorded own. Some of my classmates had a natural talent for animating and never needed to use any reference. They could create beautiful acting and convincing movements, all in their minds, while I was barely hanging in there with my video reference. While it never felt like I was cheating, it made me feel pretty guilty. Like I wasn't a good enough animator because I needed to use reference.
you're just a normal guy... nothing wrong with that.
For me, I use video reference for a movement I've never animated before, and after that I can do it in different variations without the refrence. Some people can do it when they see it once some needs to see it 10 times, as long as u pushing yourself you 're good👍.
You are more qualified working in a film if you think of animating based on reference. Humans are not perfect in capturing different movements or actions that's why we use reference.
Some people just have better visual memory. It's like that episode of Malcolm in the Middle where Reese memorized a poster on the back of a door and passed his test, and he said "It's like a whole new kind of cheating!"
Not an animator. I copy other artist and poses for study. I break them down and question it. Such as, "why this shape?".
"A lot of hardcore artists think that using economic and smart techniques is cheating, a lot of paper animators think that using a computer is cheating, and a lot of idiots think that using reference is cheating."
True statement right here
*Animate however you want, just don’t plagiarize stuff. The end.*
Yes and no yes be creative but however do not use fucking motion capture just like how a real musician and instrumentalist Will never use a fucking VST they always use a real instrument
@@oldsmlreupload1578 real artists don’t use vst? definitely not true lol
@@oldsmlreupload1578 cringe
@@oldsmlreupload1578 goofy
@@oldsmlreupload1578 silly billy~
To be honest, I hate it when people, “Tweening isn’t animation!” It is animation, the literal definition of animation is, the illusion of movement. Tweening is animation.
tweening is haaaaaardddd. it's extremely impressive what some artists can do with it, and its one of my favorite animation techniques
@@sparkles7111 not really, there's a certain program. But tweening in Adobe and other hard animation program is SURELY HARD 😌👏
@@moo2024 what "certain program" lol?
Just don’t tween and then say you did it frame by frame, thats not okay
But tweening by itself is pretty cool
@@moo2024 what program
The rip-off on "suspicious" is an interesting part. If you "rip-off" something very well known, it can easily be considered an homage. For example, nobody would call a nod to the famous akira bike-breaking shot a rip-off as it is so very well known. It has been referenced so many times it has become ubiquitous. If you, however trace something entirely, or make the "stolen" property the core part of what you sell - sure, that IS indeed stealing. Someone on youtube once said that you gotta "steal" from so many different sources, media and art forms, that is meshes together in a new style that it is considered "your" style.
Now it begs the question: What to do with people who only follow tutorials to get work done? Is that cheating? If they follow a blender tutorial on a doughnut, but they create an entirely different kind of baked good.
I know that youtuber you’re referring to. I think his name was Kienan Lafferty. I remember seeing that video and thinking the way he explained it made sense.
Ripping off is also an interesting topic. How obvious should an idea be to not be considered a rip-off done by someone else? A character with a scar? A girl in a Japanese bathhouse full of ghosts? A man with a huge sword? Just think about it, how many artist are out there? A million? Each draws something unique for a year, it makes 365 million ideas. They will inevitably cross. Even very specific ones. It's impossible to stay fresh today, and it's impossible to know all the million artists to not accidentally steal from them.
Well, Akinator is a good symbol of "nothing's new under the sun". 5-10 words describe a character. No combos left unused. Gotta either go for extremely weird details or make a character too complicated with all the differences from the existing ones.
Totally agree with your statement tho. There's also things that need to be considered, such as art for commercial use and for learning. I don't really sure the applience of this with arts that very well known. But, atleast if you took reference or trace especially from a small creator for commercial use, ask permission first, give credit. Even for learning, you should still give a credit (if your work is shared with others of course). What I get from the essence of "giving credit" is that telling other people that your work isn't fully original, you make a reference link to the original creator for the act of respect
Straight up following other people's tutorial in terms of learning, that's fine. But, straight up following other people's tutorial without changing/modifying anything from it for commercial use, that's not fine. Always following other people's tutorial over and over for commercial use and not modifying anything from it, that's just a bast*d son of a b*tch.
@@raytumb it's very debatable statement
"A lot of idiots think using a reference is cheating" wow, had some hate with That one.
It's not like they've ever seen something and wanted to draw it how it originally looked 🙃
They're kinda being hypocrites, and everyone can't remember every single detail of an object, reference is just a part of learning
true tho
Phong Huynh yeah exactly. Don’t remember who said it but there’s really no such thing as “original” art if you think using a reference is cheating. All art stems from each other and we grow with each new generation, each new method or technique that comes from it. (Actually there’s a comment further down by robrobusa that says it better than I have)
Some people also make a distinction between reference shots you take or using other people’s work as reference. But I’m never going to learn how to do specific digital art techniques without looking off another artist. I think some people don’t understand that references are more than just learning how to draw. It can be used for so many different aspects of art and if you don’t use them you’re either gifted or limiting yourself.
That's the truth.
I have a bit of a different take on the "this is a little suspicious" category
If you're tracing either a live action scene, animated scene, or even someone else's drawing just to *practice*, I think it is completely fine as long as you don't post it somewhere saying "look at my amazing thing that I did completely on my own". You're not selling it, you're not making money off of it, and you likely gain important skills from it. My friend's dad is in animation school and his teachers specifically have their classes copy and trace scenes from movies to gain a better understanding of how the human body moves and how gravity affects objects and how to portray that.
the start is a part of the artist comunity in a nutshell
Also,on the unacceptable part i remember those meme animators
(I was refering to meme animators like crystali)
some meme animators actually do original things, it's just a little sad to me that the whole concept behind memes is kinda stealing/copying??? if i make animation memes i never copy anything another animator did, instead make my own animation with only the same music clip. (i like to make sure the music is free to use too... meme animators are notorious for stealing music lol)
Yeah, even some of them called animation meme is tiktok but animation (painful to hear that tbh)
Even though animation meme already in internet since almost a decade ago. As old as the RUclips itself.....
hah i've jumped on that bandwagon as well. good for practice
There is no art community. Unless you consider of group of assholes to be a community. The only time I see artists band together is to rip someone else apart. Or people say things like "wow the art community is so supportive" when it is only the actions of a very small amount of people who just happen to do art.
Meme animator make it WITH the purpose of being copied
Like bases,,,, do it doesnt count
I found an animator who traced over your intro--I called him out on it, but it looks like he's deleted my comment. I wanted to let you know. I'll email the link to you.
Call him out, that’s scummy.
@@MK_2023. I did, he deleted my comment. Which extra pissed me off. I just emailed Toniko. Hopefully he sees the comment and gets the email.
@@Blue_Bird_Animations i saw it!
@@TonikoPantoja k
Go get em
I had a “friend” who would always trace, she credited it rarely and usually never said she traced. She would constantly rip off stories (even some of my own) and gain from it. This went on for nearly a year, I called her out a bit, but nobody noticed.
Recently she showed a group chat with our friends in it. (Irl friends) and I snapped, I was tired of her stealing others work. I told her that she traced and to credit her bases in the group chat, she denied it and said “this is why I don’t talk to you often.” (She NEVER chats with anybody unless she wants something from them, and I only called her out twice before. It was also sick to deny someone who cares about you so much contact, just because you were too lazy to type a few words.)
I removed her from the chat temporarily just so she would stop and I would calm down, she then messaged me a photo of her sending a traced version of the art and her friend complementing it, just to hurt me.
I messaged her “I’m sorry, I’ll do anything for you, please forgive me I was just jealous of your amazing art skills, I know you didn’t trace.” (I was lying, I was trying to give her a few words before we parted ways.)
She has not responded.
If she dares show, or post another thing that she ripped off again, I am showing the art teachers, because she keeps committing plagiarism. (She also cheats on her homework and posts other’s personal information.)
Sorry if this comment is really long, I just really needed to rant. It was clear she was using me (and currently others) to get stuff, to get gifts, art, stories, homework done, etc. Most of these things she did behind my back, I usually did not let her walk all over me, I am currently trying to get her other “friends” to see what she is like and hopefully get them to try to help her to change.
Wisteria Waves bruh, u should do something about it. Dont kiss her ass.
my other old friend used to trace art from me and another friend and take credit
Same but she was stealing my artstyle which I never give permission to, but she avoided me. So I have no friends, since everyone knows I butt-hurted her ( well, I knew I never had one ) then to clear up situation, I just.. give my artstyle anyways. I always saw she was tracing my base and poses that I draw and using my artstyle ( falling angel, side view. Etc.) I got mad, and absolutely called her in my heart. But I say "can you not? Can you- stop it, get some help pls" then she went mad, and cry. I made everyone cry even though I'm really weak inside lmao, people called me bad and a devil for making my friend cried. My personality didn't match my zodiac lol
You should’ve told your art teachers the second time you called her out on it. She will continue to do it until she gets busted.
Yo did u report her to the real artists? :o
Referencing literally teaches you how things move and how to make those moving things realistic
I like to think there's cheating yourself and cheating others, I don't see a problem with working smart as you call it, but I do think one should properly learn their animation and drawing techniques by working hard before choosing to work smart so they don't limit their abilities, this will allow them to work smarter since now they understand concepts they wouldn't learn otherwise
There's no cheating in art in general because it's not a competition. Being a bad learner, being a liar or plagiarizing are their own issues.
@@matheusrocha5596 Plagiarizing is cheating. Also, art can definitely be a competition when it comes to being graded in a class, applying for a university or a job, and making money in the art market.
@@matheusrocha5596 "cheating" in art sounds like a strange term until you consider what cheating really means. Cheating means you're being unfair to others, bringing others down and putting them behind, purely to forward your own interests. It's bad because not only is it selfish, but it's also short-sighted.
To be fair most smart workers that are up there I would say know the fundamentals and techniques since you kind of need some info on them anyway to really make the cheat work well. So they mostly do it to save time!
@@matheusrocha5596 I also believe there's no cheating in art aslong as your not plagiarizing, I just think that all of the time saving tricks can lead student artists to limit their capabilities, while artists who went through all the trouble to get good can get better results when applying these time saving tricks since now they understand to a deeper level
Heres a question I have; whats considered "overanimating" in animation? I'd love to see a video tackling that subject!
By overanimating, does it imply to 1. Exaggerated animation of certain part, or 2. The amount of animation on the whole scene ?
Hobo Hotel is overanimation lol
I don't think there's such a thing. The amount of animation and motion you can impart to a sequence is almost entirely dependent upon what the desired product is versus the amount of time you can invest. ie, if hired to freelance a piece, you need to work quickly enough to keep the work manageable. The longer you spend on a piece with a fixed budget, the less money you make per hour of labor. That said, I guess 'overanimating' would be at whatever point you've devoted time to a project that you see diminishing returns.
Victor The Collector hobo hotel..?
@@kaymakesthings My definition of over animating is definitely different from yours. Its when the acting and the overall movement is so much that it tends to be distracting. Things like too many key poses, characters moving non stop when they need to be more subtler, and overall control. There is animation that is beautifully animated with a lot of inbetweens and drawings - but so much unnecessary information.
1:06 this... is... the CUTEST INTRO EVER! That is some smooth animation
References aren’t cheating, Tracing is cheating. Most animators and artists use a references! I do agree with you on some things of course.
I don’t think tracing is cheating either as long as you don’t claim the work, tracing can help build muscle memory
@@officialname9817 with respect, to build muscle memory with reference, is by braking it down to first a stick figure to solid shapes. Tracing is making the outline, by following the drawing, very few if not any tend to learn through that way.
@@officialname9817 I agree. Years ago I would trace Sonic the Hedgehog characters that I liked and then brake down the basic shapes of their bodies and whatnot and then applied what I figured out to make my own characters. It also created, as you said, a muscle memory that allowed me draw over and over just from thought the implanted movements of my arm and hand.
uhmm.... and the old masters used the "camara obscura" to project the cityscape on a plane and trace it, before developing the theory of perspective draving... those cheater old masters :)
Disney were the first to use tracing, they were just filming people doing postures and movement they wanted, they called it" Fleischers method" by its inventor
Animators are going to have to start filming themselves drawing to prove they're not copying it, Miyazaki proved this when he made Princess Mononoke. You can see other animators do whole scenes in Japanese animation without the aid of anything, like Yoshinari.
I literally film myself to practice turns and stuff, people would think that is cheating if I'm the one I'm taking references from? 👁️👄👁️
@@kamishy_Art of course not. You need to learn how things/bodys move.
Ok....?and?
honestly it's more fun and cool to see!
@@moonshadow1795 it's better to let yourself try to do the movements in order to understand how it works. some animators can even do most of it themselves without too huge of a reference!
I’d never know Toniko would cuss until this very moment.
Really? He swears a lot
[@@koolooc726 ] I'm new to his channel :')
If you watch his older stuff he swears like a sailor haha
Ha, my surprise came with Bonbon "giving the sign of peace" in another video.
Also he swears in his IG stories. Never yet saw his older vids though
my friend traced the keyframes from a 3d animation and then proceeded to do the animation by himself drawing his character. I feel it to be ok if it is to exercise and improve (we just started animation) however I don't know if he gifted it or "sold it" or used it as self promotion. That I do not like.
Was it his 3d animation?
@@Jordan-db2og no
i feel like the only time live action should be accepted is if you filmed the live action yourself, or paid/got rights for the source material
I think there are exceptions to that rule. For example, I'm working on game and wanted to reference a large predation taking down a horse. Fortunately, lions attack zebras on a regular basis. I don't have the money to go on a trip to Africa to follow some lions around waiting for them to attack a zebra. So in that case, its fine to reference the hundreds of other videos of lions hunting zebras. I mean I could just wing it but I won't have the same impact as having a reference.
Honestly, I think nah, now if your ripping off the entire scene or video that's a big deal, but if your using it to learn about certain movements or something else like that, but taking nothing else from it, I dont get the big deal
I think it’s acceptable in the situations you guys mentioned, but also if the artist wanted to recreate the same movements in a video and give credit. If there’s no credit then that’s rude but if there is credit than it’s appropriate, like if it was dance choreography. I’ve seen some animators who use live action choreography and I don’t consider it cheating.
I wouldn't consider it cheating, more like video reference.
Capuchino Sofia well if it’s drawing over a live action video that isn’t yours I’ll have to disagree but if it is just to learn some movements or poses then I’ll agree.
I just noticed he was humming the dragon ball gt theme in the beginning lol
same
I was scrolling through the comments just to see if someone pointed it out
It really is a discussion of plagiarism. "Cheating" has barely any place in the discussion since animation is not a competitive sport. The examples you gave in the middle of the scale were pretty much instances where someone lied, it hadn't much to do with animation per se.
stealing is always shit.
wether it's kevin bao, denzel curry - cosmic or if you are simply tracing over some anime footage like MastarMedia.
Don't do that. Please.
great video toniko, I really appreciate you making a video about it.
Fax
In art school, one of my teachers told me that there is no cheating in drawing as you're learning from everything you draw. He told me to grab a magazine or comic book and trace what I see. Not to steal the artwork but to understand its shapes, its anatomy. If you are capable of drawing another person's drawing/animation then you are adaptable. Don't remember her name but a woman spent a year self inserting in many well known cartoons styles such as Danny Phantom, SpongeBob, etc. and guess who hired her? The same people who she copied styles from.
There is no such thing as pose or color theft so any reference used will always be acceptable since as another teacher told me "Ideas cannot be stolen since anybody can think of it. You just gotta make it your own". Many characters in comics, manga, movies, books,etc. have been inspired from something else. Look at deadpool Marvels biggest rip off of DC's Deathstroke! You telling me the merc with a mouth is cheating or genius?
All this cheating and whatnot is objectively subjective. So as was once told "Ignore what others say just shut up and draw".
Thanks i was contemplating on whether i should quit drawing because i cant draw from imagination and older more experienced artists always say copying is cheating and i dont wanna be labeled as a cheater
Only idiots say drawing from reference is cheating. Regardless of how old they are. (I’m over 30)
To me it matters more that someone puts their own style on things than making them super lifelike. But that’s just my preference. (And drawing lifelike is good for learning)
Tracing is great as practise it gets your muscle memory to remember shapes and proportions.
I know people who will only draw from life, measuring by ruler and eye and their proportions are terrible...
@@user24008 there is no shame in having a similar artstyle or straight up copying the artstyle, because you are always learning and overall it's not bad
Thank you :3 needed this
True but I hope she doesn’t support motion capture even though I agree with most if not everything she says I hope she doesn’t support motion capture or even worse VST‘s because both motion capture and VST‘s need to be abolished
I was just doing my webcomic and I decided to trace a reference image I took from my models because making episodes take me a looong time. I then thought, "Isn't this technically cheating though?" Welp, I'm gonna see what you have to say on this!
No its not cheating lol
Not cheating. I use videos and images.
@Fer D. Well if it's a straight trace then yes but if the trace is for a pose and you then go and put your own character there then no it's not "this is suspicious"
These intros are giving me so much life right now lmao The perfect combo of entertainment and education 🤣👌🏾
To save time I used 3d models and photos for a few elements in the background of my comic. My teacher was fine with it since the majority of it was still drawn by me. When I posted it online I got so much backlash for it. I never claimed that I drew them myself or took credit for the original. Sometimes the art community is so toxic. I ended up having to remove my artwork. People seem to think you're not a real artist if you don't do everything 100% yourself. While it's a great that there are hard workers out there it just isn't feasible when you have deadlines and sometimes you have to cut corners just to get things done. I do agree that if you straight up rip from someone else's work like in the examples you showed then that is cheating.
Your intro to that little dog waving is unbelievably cute xD
If you ever find yourself using “no one will know” as an excuse, you’re probably crossing a line. Great video as always Toniko!
Everyone cheats.... I've seen entire action sequences that were cropped and flopped from American live action movies in Anima
Disney use to constantly trace over action from older films.
That's pretty much what he says in the video. And depends what u mean by "cheats".
But it’s different if the company owns the animation they are tracing from. If the company does not own it and they are stealing it then it’s wrong and I’m guessing it might be illegal (I don’t know that much about legal stuff)
@@ravenpotter3 it's plagiarism if you're taking somebody elses work, editing it and claiming as your own.
@@HiimIny Oh la de da... Rotoscoping you say... You artists and your 5 dollar words.
Oh joel, please turn on the rear projector and fetch me a ream of 12 field...
I'm going to tape down my acme peg bar and go a Rotoscoping.
Oh, well these day's you would pull the clip in to premiere, export line information using the photoshop plug in .
then drag that in to toon boom as a layer and trace to clean up. Be lazy animation is hard. :)
The opening animation short is my favorite part!
As I'm currently working in the creative-tech field (game design) via personal projects- coming from a software development background- this video is great reference for someone who needs a little light shed on some creative considerations concerning reference choices. Thanks for an informative video, Toniko.
Why is cheating being spoken of, its not like you are in a battle about what art is better than others, the only bad thing is stealing, literally copying and tracing, because that person is claiming that art as their own when probably it has a 2% of their work in it
Yea i dont claim the character or anything i just draw it 😄
So I'm not a loser after all so using references and bad it feels like such a relief
I just started to see your channel, and I'm addicted to it!
Your little intro animation where the cute doggy waves literally gives me so much serotonin every time
"I have never seen an angel. Show me an angel, and I'll paint one " - Gustave Courbet
Even historical artists have used references for their art
dude that batman fight !! I had no clue , unbelievable
I'm a very amateur artist, and I'll sometimes try to redraw certain artists work, (not tracing just as reference) but I never post it or claim it as my own I just do it personally, and have found I have slowly improved over the years. It has helped me with issues like prospective and positions
My personal opinion:
- its not copying if you use a reference
- it is copying/cheating if you trace already made characters and things
- it is copying/cheating if you just download or take someone else's animation
I don't consider ANYTHING cheating (if they follow the local copyright laws and/or don't lie), I just consider limiting tools. I don't work in 2d, I work in 3D, but I try to extrapolate what I meant. Years ago, there was a 2d animation website called GoAnimate, you could choose premade characters with premade animations and animate their path and dialoges with very simple tools, is that cheating? I don't think so, but I consider it a VERY limiting software, because you won't be able to customizate many things, or work with perspective. Now, if you use GoAnimate and say that you animated it by hand... That would be cheating.
Next level would be using bones with vector drawings, again I DO NOT consider it cheating, but it is a limiting software, becaus at the time that you want to animate a perspective change, you won't be able to do it.
To me, animating in paper is more limiting than animating in computer. In compute you have unlimited drawing ink and paper, history and non-destructive workflows. Is easier? It might be, mistakes in computer animation are less concerning and destructive than in paper, is it cheating? NO.
Saying that a tool IS cheating is the stupidest thing EVER. If you don't believe me, go ahead, try to make a fire without "cheats", you know, you can't use a lighter or a match... Oh, and doing it in the prehistoric way is also cheating, using a stick or some stones to make fire is cheating, use only your bare hands. /s
EDIT: So, I wrote this mid-vid, just to find out that this is the conclusion of this video: Shame on me.
It's still a good thing to read though, you put it very well.
I hate when people attack others for using reference, like I can't draw a dancer without knowing what dancing looks like
You're a legend mate, thanks for the videos it keeps me on my toes!
1:06 first time I see one of your vidéo, but with this I subscribe instantly. What an incredible animation!
People who say you are “cheating” can’t even draw
lmao 😂😂😂 true
I hate it when people say that digital art, “isn’t art”, and it,” draws for you.”
I have no idea how and why youtube recommended this video to me. Thanks for this awesome video. I've always been conflicted over certain issues and you helped clarify the subject for me. I see myself more as a "smart worker", and before this video it often felt like I was cheating. This this video really enlightened me as to how I've been hard on myself. Thanks for sharing, you just got a new subscriber👍👍👍
The intro was well done , amzing🌹
In my opinion:
You can do anything, as long as you're transparent about the resources you use. I think it's okay to rip something off 1:1 as long as you make a clear statement that you ripped it off from that specific source at the begging of the animation/title without trying to hide it (and what counts as hiding is also purely subjective)
So, for example, if someone were to animate something from absolute scratch and claim they did it that way, then it's perfectly okay, but if someone took heavy inspiration from previous works, nearly matching character's poses 1:1 or the scenery, then they should be transparent about it. There's literally no reason to call them a cheater if they already know that what they're doing, even if looking as good as some high grade words, doesn't make them as much of a skilled artist, and neither should the viewers think that.
“The hard worker, or someone who likes to work hard”
Ah yes the floor here is made out of floor
Lmao I subscribed the moment I saw the adorable dog intro at 1:05 🥺😂😂😂 very insightful vid btw! 🖤
Like the poses/actions,colors, different characters it just helps me
Im trying to teach myself how to draw abd the amount of times people have reamed me out for 'tracing' over a persons stance or even just redrawing a scene from a 3D show into 2D has really discouraged me. People learn in different ways, if a rando learns by copying, let them learn, their style will become independent eventually.
Louder for the people in the back please
the gt humming
There's always so much great information in these videos, but I keep missing it because I get distracted by the cool animation, and I have to play it over again. 🤣
Nice breakdown! I consider myself to fall between the hard worker and the smart worker.
I'll typically copy and paste the basic cranial sphere (aka a circle with crosshairs) in key poses, but only to keep the volume of the head and alignment of facial features consistent.
I’m loving these intros!
“A lot of idiots think using reference is cheating“ this is GOLD. Also, I agree with you on all your points.
I knew you’d mention the ps4 mv in this
THIS. IS. GOLDEN. *Claps like a maniac and slams hand on table because I can't agree more*
I have a small Instagram community with some "beginner" artist (I'm not a professional but they look up to me for some reason even if they're pretty good themselves pfft) that always ask "is it okay to trace" which I reply to "no", but using a reference ALWAYS helps, you CAN trace the reference if that helps you learn it better, but DON'T post it and claim that it's yours, and instead USE WHAT YOU LEARNED, and INTERPRET it into YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. Studying a reference does not mean you trace it and done. It means you can learn from the reference and incorporate in your own way, and create your own art.
So thank you for this video, I learned and relearned a lot from it. *sips tea* Preach it.
Wow, thanks for the guide cause I was panicking about an animation I always wanted to do
I appreciate your channel so much
To me as long as the animation is good it doesn’t matter. Animation takes too damn long to worry about the unnecessary stuff
Animation doesn't take that long when you only trace...
No really, just because something has put effort into it doesn't mean that you should steal work. And in my opinion, that's not an unnecessary point.
@@teekonu well if you trace but not change it and claim it as yours then yes it's stealing
But if you do it for poses and then go back and change the character to yours and make it as different to the characters in the place you referanced/traced from
@@karlbaxter3350 Well, I personally don't trace, especially not from other artwork that isn't intended to be reference material. But I do use references to get the position right. And I personally don't see anything wrong with it. For example: walk cycles. There's just one way like a cat or a dog moves, you can't change that really.
But if you copy each frame of an animation from someone else and just change it to your character, I'd still consider it stealing.
When you use it for reference, I think it's fine but it should really not be shot by shot the same thing.
@@teekonu I completely agree with you I was just looking at it from a still frame/image way not in animation (i cant animate at all) if you use it for just the pose, but if you do, do it frame by frame then yea I do consider that either cheating "too suspicious" and if it's EXACTLY frame by frame even with art style then I think that would be stealing
The intro cracked me up
Thank you for sharing this 😊
The intro with the little yellow dog is the best thing i've ever seen
Whenever I call something a cheat in animation then it's some breakage of form for convenience sake, as long as it's believable and works.
Like your dog character on the left at 0:58, where the mustache and teeth point forward while the skull points to the right side.
Or when muzzles of furry animals retract and expand depending on the angle, like, shrinking back in a 3/4 front view so the cheek isn't obstructed.
I call nothing else cheating.
I think he did that purposely
You caught me. I just got too lazy animating mouth flaps so I just copied and pasted from the consecutive previous shots
@@TonikoPantoja Yeah, I getcha lol. It's not a big deal to me, it was just an example of 'cheat', something that works, and is easier/faster but is technically wrong.
But also, just because it's technically wrong doesn't mean it's always bad. Like that retracting snout in 3/4 views where otherwise a lot of the face might be obscured by muzzle shape, when the artists focus is more on cuteness (which cheeks and smaller snouts indicate more easily) so, the snout has a telescope feature :P
@Miztrali
Yea, most 'cheats' are on purpose ^^ "I can get away with it and it saves time!" etc.
dorkly morkly I see!
I still don't think the full cheater category is all that suspect. Again, it all comes down to expectations and betrayal of parameters. If you use traced animation under the guise of original animation in a portfolio to get a job, that's messed up. But in terms of creating art, like the PS4 lineup, the end result *is* something different and new. People make their own versions of the Mona Lisa all the time. It depends on expectations
That animated intro is simply beautiful 💖
i enjoyed this lawful good take on it Tonikooo
I've personally used live action footage I didn't personally make/film as a reference to get things down. Like.. slowing an action down to the frame rate I'm using and referencing each frame to see a kind of loose guide to how I should draw the key frames of my animation.
A couple times I've used live action footage I didn't make/film for this, though it wasnt from movies or anything of the sort. And sometimes when an action has really specific spacing/timing I will trace over it very loosely.. Like tracing a circle over the head and a couple dots where the hands/feet are but making everything else myself... would this be considered cheating? (i wouldnt do this for anything in a job or that im selling and havent done that for any commercial work in the past)
I guess technically it is cheating but it’s not that bad. I see nothing wrong with it. I guess It’s fine if you do it as long as you are crediting the original video if the animation looks very close to it (especially if you are going to make money off the animation). I’m not a lawyer and I’m only still learning animation so I don’t know if it’s legal or not. But I guess you are fine
What you just described is doing a study. Not only is that not cheating, it's what you should be doing as an artist to get better. It's something you should be doing a lot. It's how we build a visual vocabulary in our mind to pull from later. Unless you're blatantly trying to steal something, don't really focus on the idea of "cheating", focus on building fundamentals and learning, and everything else will follow suit.
The old master painters used to make their students redraw the master's work line for line to teach them the techniques so they could use them in their own work. It's how we learn. If anyone tells you using those things as tools to learn is cheating, they most likely aren't a professional or are very young and don't know what they're talking about. Just focus on learning everyday, and everything else will follow.
Good luck on your journey as an artist!
I guess it would be better if I showed an example of what I mean. Here's the original footage i.imgur.com/s1lUSM6.gif
here's an animation I made by tracing over the leg and head positions i.imgur.com/xqVCVWW.gif
I tried to make it original. It's only loosely based and theres even some frames, positions, and timings I changed because it didnt exactly fit my vision and what i needed for the character.
so what are yall's opinions? Is this cheating or just working smart ?
@@purrpletiger2159 Well taking knowladge from this video i would call this cheating, but what if u took the video on skateboard urself. It would be the same think, i really dont understand toniko point about the fact that tracing from video is cheating
@@mwnf I'm not sure what the difference between rotoscoping like he talked about and this is.. but yeah I think he meant tracing something you didnt make is skipping/cheating out of work you yourself would do (like making the video reference yourself)
Draw from reference is cheating ?
Hmm think again
Why ? Cuz you cant draw something you've never seen before and you need reference for it
This is the best recommendation I ever had this month.
Ikr
That intro got me subbed. So cute.
I think there's a difference, as well, between recording your own live action footage, because you own the copyright for that, compared to using someone else's footage
I didn't know that messing with the layers of the animation to change the colors and to make the animation better is cheating. I mean isn't that the actual point of digital animation. They didn't add hue and saturation for no reason, its for artist and animator that digitally work artwork better.
Great video, Nice dragon transformation clip.
Super interesting, thanks for the video!
I saw the notification, i instant clicked
I do the this is suspicious but I record my self there for I’m not stealing because u can’t steal from ur self
Good synopsis bro!!
Hi, I just wanted to say. I really enjoy your videos. Thank you so much for them. your art is so pleasing to look at. I feel inspired to animate and/or draw when I see some of your art :,3 I hope to buy one of your classes when I can. Have a good day?
Person: *has pride*
Person: This is little maneuver is gonna cost us 51 years.
If i record myself doing the movements and them use my own video to animate its is "This is suspicious"?
Well if its yourself then I think its more towards the "cheating/working smarter" category
It´s literaly called photobashing , It´s a proccess where you build a stage and/or get some pose references (in the form of 3D models, photos or videos) to help you out speed and improve on some animations/drawings by just (mostly) drawing over them while adding your own characters, ideas and details to make them unike and diferent enough from the "references" to be your own. So It souldn´t be cheating, but rather the "working smarter"
4:37 THAT LOOKS AMAZING PLEASE DO A TUTORIAL ON POST-PROCESSING AND AFTER EFFECTS
pls
I can't stop re-watching that super smooth intro
A little thing I'd like to note in the "A Little Suspicious" category: if you film the video yourself, and it's *yours* , then that is acceptable. It's probably bumped back to the neutral spot because you're "cheating" by using heavy reference, but at the very least it's reference you created yourself.
I'm 99% the hard worker and 1% the smart worker. I mostly do things myself but occasionally use software to do things (resize a body part, recolor, etc). I don't want to be a slave to technology and want to be able to do animation on paper without much trouble if need be. Working smart is great for making things fast and effectively. If ya wanna be a pure breed pencil and paper animator without any of the short cuts disney animators used (like photocopying a drawing, resizing the head and reprinting it a tad bigger, and then tracing it onto the animation paper) then feel free to suffer. And BOY... I really hate the "references is cheating" thing. All great artists, animation or not, have studied from life and gained knowledge on how things look or move. If they aren't confident enough in their skill, they'll look at a reference to make sure to get it right. Technology is nothing more than a tool. Drawing on paper or the computer is no different since you're still directly drawing. The differences are things meant to make things go faster, but if you don't want to use rigs or non hand drawn methods, then it's really no different than paper at its core
K
omgg toniko lol the intro
this video just come out to my feed out of nowhere and dem! the dogs is so cute i can't-
why does the brown dog in the beginning look like the nostalgia critic
Artist: trace own art
Dumb people: TRACER!!!
:')
Taking up references to make animations, specially when you are starting it's something essential to get better at it, and even better if you cambine these thing with the knowledge of knowing the tools to reuse your own work when it's needed.
Adding all diverse opinions in a sungle video. Thankyou😄