Nah telling Cersei was dumb. Flat out. He could've done everything he was gonna do without clueing in the person who has the most to lose who is known to be vicious.
Revisiting this chapters is painfull because this is the beginning of the end for the Starks and for US 😭😭 after this is just tragedy after tragedy after tragedy Robert, Ned, Yoren, Cat, Robb, 💔💔
Ned’s opinion of King Robert the night he ordered Lady be killed & the butchers boy is run down, Ned’s opinion starts to change. He bankrupted the realm, which had Eddard in a tizzy. He ordered Daenerys’ death, Ned was ready to go home. Not just because of the Lannister’s either. He no longer wants to serve after seeing how the realm is being run.
I commented this on the last podcast video but it's applicable here as well so I'll repeat myself: I strongly suspect Viserys was shepherded towards his death just like Robert was. I think both were given fortified wine by a plant doing someone else's bidding; and the strong wine combined with their hotheaded nature resulted in lethal decisions that wouldn't have otherwise been made. Where Cersei used Lancel to supply the wine to Robert, I think Varys used Doreah to supply the wine to Viserys.
@@GrayArea Yes. I just think Doreah had more of a role in pushing Viserys to his death than she's given credit for. She's presented as this innocent tantric instructor, but she's just as shady as Jorah.
this might actually be the saddest chapter. one of them certainly. robert thinks he's fixed it and you know he hasn't. and then when ned declines renly's offer (even if i wonder if renly had ulterior motives like seizing the throne), it seals his fate.
Every once in a while I pop back to hear your chapter reviews and I love the break downs, interpretations, speculations and viewpoint. As a fan of the show, right up to the disappointing end, I have yet to read the books. Thanks so much for the juice!
This is such a heartbreaking chapter, and especially with hindsight its awful to see all the wrong decisions being made. Yes Renly didn't have the legal claim and probably just wanted the throne for himself, but Ned could have saved a lot of lives by supporting him.
Ned killed Lyanna. His interaction with the dire wolves mimic his actions with the OG She Wolf Lyanna. Ned wants to kill the dire wolf’s pups. Ned wanted to kill Jon but he was saved at the last moment. I always thought that Ned killing Lady foreshadowed Sanaa’s death but listening to this chapter again two things stand out. Two throw away lines that if you blink you would miss it. Little finger says to Ned something about slitting his throat and burying him in a dungeon. I think this is what he did to Lyanna and put her in the crypt. Remember their was no reason why Ned rebelled against tradition to put her there. It is a major Chekov’s gun. Secondly when Ned and Katelyn brief each other he literally equates Sansa pleas to save Lady to Lyanna’s pleas. Lyanna was begging him not to kill her baby. Then you have to ask why would Ned want to kill Jon? For the same reason he killed Lady. To uphold patriarchy, codes of honor bla bla bla. I’m 106% sure Jon was born of incest. B+L=J The first time Jon speaks of fatherhood is with Benjen. Jon has a spiritual connection to Benjen that he even sees Benjen’s death beyond the Wall. Jon is fearful of having sex because he is afraid accidental incest. This is why Ned kills Lyanna because someone must pay for not obeying the patriarchy. The other Chekhov’s gun is “Why is Benjen at the Wall?” At the banquet in Winterfell there is a pong passage stating what younger brothers traditionally do “banner men” etc. so GRRM makes it clear that Benjen being she away was exceptional. It makes no sense. Ned sent Benjen to the Wall and then his son. It was only after Ned killed Lady that he realized he was upholding a lie. The sacrifices he had made for this corrupt kingdom. Notice the parallels of Ned insisting that his sister was buried in the crypt and the same he did with Lady. Ned didn’t die because he was naive he died because he was looking for redemption. Ned died because he wanted to give Cersei the chance he did not give his sister Lyanna. Ned’s growth can be seen in his daughters. He accepts the traditional path of Sansa but also encourages the independent fighting spirit of Arya and gives her fighting lessons.
I will never have enough emotional prep time for what’s coming to Ned, and I knew what happened to him before I even saw an episode of GoT *OR* read the ASOIAF books 😩😩😩
I don't think Ned's promise to Lyanna involved fighting for Jon's claim. That's what the Kingsguard was doing in their attempt to stop Ned from entering the tower. That they fought suggests each side wanted something different for the baby. In fact, you could argue Ned's decision not to tell Jon about his mother until after Jon had taken his Watch vows-meaning after Jon renounced all claims to titles and inheritance- indicates Ned never intended to fight for Jon's birthright. I think the promise Ned made to the dying Lyanna was the exact same promise he made to a dying Robert: "I shall guard your children (child) as if they were my own". Interestingly, in a previous Ned chapter, after promising the mother of a King's bastard (Barra's mother) that the child would be looked after, Ned immediately thinks of Jon. I believe that alluded to the promise to Lyanna as well.
The thing is Ned belongs to the time when honour meant something. He, in the books, thinks of Arthur Dayne and other knights with him at the tower of joy and says to self people like him are of the era that is gone (something like this). Ned also believes in that and is willing to die for honour like those great knights did at the tower of joy. It's not that he is dumb, it's that he does not choose to function in an underhanded way
@@GrayArea Aziz is the champion for sure, but you are my Queen. I like to give you and indeepgeek credit for getting me so deep into ASOIAF. Thank you for you hard work over the years!
I am still very confused by killing Robert. Cersei absolutely had to kill him, after talking with Ned, but the plan was frankly horrible. Have a 15 year old to give the king strongwine and hope for an accident. It is a not a high probability assassination, and quite reckless on the part of Cersei. I heard the suppositions that the boar was skinchanged, but how would Cersei plan for this. Here is a description from another book of a king almost having been killed by a boar, which is how I picture it (as I read at a very young age): "Couching his lance, he darted at the boar which, held by the two bloodhounds, could not escape the blow. But at sight of the shining lance it turned to one side, and the weapon, instead of sinking into its breast, glided over its shoulder and blunted itself against the rock to which the animal had run. "A thousand devils!" cried the King. "I have missed him. A spear! a spear!" And bending back, as horsemen do when they are going to take a fence, he hurled his useless lance from him. An outrider advanced and offered him another. But at that moment, as though it foresaw the fate which awaited it, and which it wished to resist, by a violent effort the boar snatched its torn ears from the teeth of the bloodhounds, and with eyes bloody, protruding, hideous, its breath burning like the heat from a furnace, with chattering teeth and lowered head it sprang at the King's horse. Charles was too good a hunter not to have foreseen this. He turned his horse, which began to rear, but he had miscalculated the pressure, and the horse, too tightly reined in, or perhaps giving way to his fright, fell over backwards. The spectators gave a terrible cry: the horse had fallen, and the King's leg was under him. "Your hand, sire, give me your hand," said Henry. The King let go his horse's bridle, seized the saddle with his left hand, and tried to draw out his hunting knife with his right; but the knife, pressed into his belt by the weight of his body, would not come from its sheath. "The boar! the boar!" cried Charles; "it is on me, D'Alençon! on me!" The horse, recovering himself as if he understood his master's danger, stretched his muscles, and had already succeeded in getting up on its three legs, when, at the cry from his brother, Henry saw the Duc François grow frightfully pale and raise the musket to his shoulder, but, instead of striking the boar, which was but two feet from the King, the ball broke the knee of the horse, which fell down again, his nose touching the ground. At that instant the boar, with its snout, tore Charles's boot. "Oh!" murmured D'Alençon with ashy lips, "I suppose that the Duc d'Anjou is King of France, and that I am King of Poland." The boar was about to attack Charles's leg, when suddenly the latter felt someone raise his arm; then he saw the flash of a sharp-pointed blade which was driven into the shoulder of the boar and disappeared up to its guard, while a hand gloved in steel turned aside the head already poked under his clothes."
I'm not so sure, if Joffrey is easy to control, or not. It was Littlefingers whispering, that made Joffrey take Neds head, wasn't it? But either way: Littlefingers goal is to get rid of Ned and Robert, to destabilise the realm, start a war and profit from its spoils. I don't know, if his plan was at this point, to get Harrenhall, Lysa and the Eyrie, but he was in need of a big castle to solidify his power. And with Joffrey on the throne and Stannis knowing of his origin, war was imminent.
To call him ‘dumb’ I think is wrong, it’s being overly dutiful that is his downfall. That’s what makes him more of a tragic character because he will question his actions, but ultimately will always choose his duty/honor over other things
He always underestimates the other players. That is not a sign of his smartness. He does not only take the "right" and honorable choice, but also thinks, that this will kinda work out,although he knows, that no one else plays this game honorably. Except maybe Stannis.
@@ashleyofnaath no, you missed the entire point of his honor. Would Varys, Little Finger, Cat, etc etc etc...make the same decisions as him? I most assuredly feel that they wouldn’t based on what I read. He’s really been one of the only characters to take that route, sometimes it’s been blurred when one duty conflicts with the other; ie: Jon...but truthfully he could have allowed himself a fairly posh life for the times until the Others eventually came down to the world of men if was of the same mind as the others...but he often goes with what he feels is dutiful or honorable. He married CAT...CAT...who admittedly didn’t love him for duty and honorable, and it WAS a SMART decision Hendrik Lippa because they clearly would have ultimately lost without it.
@@ashleyofnaath I do see what you’re saying about his feelings towards the other players...and I do agree to a point, but he often has a fairly decent judgement of others. However, in no way does that make him “dumb”...which I know wasn’t your comment..but was my critic of the OG comment
Hindsight isn’t always 20/20 Robert was who he was and so was Ned. Just because you’re put into a higher position doesn’t mean you’re the right fit. Being true to yourself is great for you but isn’t when everyone wants to rip you apart. Ned didn’t want this at all he was ordered to by his King, had he refused his entire house would have suffered a more severe consequence.
The BIG tragedy is that Ned doesn't see where the REAL threat is... Oh, sure, he remembers the words "Winter is coming"... but he gives no credence to the others, the great other, the white walkers... even Giants. You'd think the Dire wolves coming south of the Wall should have been warning enough for him to revisit the legends of the long night and the others. I actually blame it on Riccard... who brought a southern Maester to Winterfell... and then Ned, in order to make Cat more comfortable, builds a scept and brings in a Septa. Riccard sent him off to the Erie for a good portion of his childhood... so what opportunity was there for the REAL threat to make itself known to Ned down to his bones? The north is better off isolating themselves from the rest of the Westeros... especially if they ALWAYS have be prepared for a coming Winter.
Imagine if people were putting this much time effort research and determination into things that actually matter and aren't a work of fiction that will probably never even see completion lol
People have different passions. It's what makes the world interesting. I get your point, though no one would have entertainment if people only focussed on those "important" things. No tv, no music, no fiction, no nuthin.
Girl, you ain’t doing my man Ned right calling him dumb all the time! 😂 I love me some honorable, naive Ned! 😭😭😭
lol this is hilarious 😂
I'm an honorable and naive. No wait, I'm not not a fool and I'm not naive. I'm just honorable. Have a wonderful day.
He's not dumb, he's naive and honorable. It's easy to call him out since we know in advance that something is gravely wrong.
Nah telling Cersei was dumb. Flat out. He could've done everything he was gonna do without clueing in the person who has the most to lose who is known to be vicious.
Yeah, it’s like Greek drama
Thanks for bringing me on. Always nice to rip on season 8.
Thanks so much for continuing to keeping GOT ‘alive’.
Revisiting this chapters is painfull because this is the beginning of the end for the Starks and for US 😭😭 after this is just tragedy after tragedy after tragedy
Robert, Ned, Yoren, Cat, Robb, 💔💔
Ned’s opinion of King Robert the night he ordered Lady be killed & the butchers boy is run down, Ned’s opinion starts to change. He bankrupted the realm, which had Eddard in a tizzy. He ordered Daenerys’ death, Ned was ready to go home. Not just because of the Lannister’s either. He no longer wants to serve after seeing how the realm is being run.
I commented this on the last podcast video but it's applicable here as well so I'll repeat myself: I strongly suspect Viserys was shepherded towards his death just like Robert was. I think both were given fortified wine by a plant doing someone else's bidding; and the strong wine combined with their hotheaded nature resulted in lethal decisions that wouldn't have otherwise been made. Where Cersei used Lancel to supply the wine to Robert, I think Varys used Doreah to supply the wine to Viserys.
Viserys was def shepherded towards his death.. Illyrio says as much. They knew he would last among the Dothraki
@@GrayArea Yes. I just think Doreah had more of a role in pushing Viserys to his death than she's given credit for. She's presented as this innocent tantric instructor, but she's just as shady as Jorah.
Thank you Gray for always putting out excellent content with people from all over the fandom!! :)
I think Ned is definitely a true friend to Robert. They had some fallings out but all good friends do. Robert and Ned were like brothas from anothas.
this might actually be the saddest chapter. one of them certainly. robert thinks he's fixed it and you know he hasn't. and then when ned declines renly's offer (even if i wonder if renly had ulterior motives like seizing the throne), it seals his fate.
Every once in a while I pop back to hear your chapter reviews and I love the break downs, interpretations, speculations and viewpoint. As a fan of the show, right up to the disappointing end, I have yet to read the books. Thanks so much for the juice!
This is such a heartbreaking chapter, and especially with hindsight its awful to see all the wrong decisions being made. Yes Renly didn't have the legal claim and probably just wanted the throne for himself, but Ned could have saved a lot of lives by supporting him.
Ned killed Lyanna. His interaction with the dire wolves mimic his actions with the OG She Wolf Lyanna.
Ned wants to kill the dire wolf’s pups. Ned wanted to kill Jon but he was saved at the last moment.
I always thought that Ned killing Lady foreshadowed Sanaa’s death but listening to this chapter again two things stand out.
Two throw away lines that if you blink you would miss it.
Little finger says to Ned something about slitting his throat and burying him in a dungeon. I think this is what he did to Lyanna and put her in the crypt. Remember their was no reason why Ned rebelled against tradition to put her there. It is a major Chekov’s gun.
Secondly when Ned and Katelyn brief each other he literally equates Sansa pleas to save Lady to Lyanna’s pleas. Lyanna was begging him not to kill her baby.
Then you have to ask why would Ned want to kill Jon? For the same reason he killed Lady. To uphold patriarchy, codes of honor bla bla bla.
I’m 106% sure Jon was born of incest. B+L=J
The first time Jon speaks of fatherhood is with Benjen. Jon has a spiritual connection to Benjen that he even sees Benjen’s death beyond the Wall. Jon is fearful of having sex because he is afraid accidental incest.
This is why Ned kills Lyanna because someone must pay for not obeying the patriarchy. The other Chekhov’s gun is “Why is Benjen at the Wall?” At the banquet in Winterfell there is a pong passage stating what younger brothers traditionally do “banner men” etc. so GRRM makes it clear that Benjen being she away was exceptional. It makes no sense. Ned sent Benjen to the Wall and then his son.
It was only after Ned killed
Lady that he realized he was upholding a lie. The sacrifices he had made for this corrupt kingdom.
Notice the parallels of Ned insisting that his sister was buried in the crypt and the same he did with Lady.
Ned didn’t die because he was naive he died because he was looking for redemption.
Ned died because he wanted to give Cersei the chance he did not give his sister Lyanna.
Ned’s growth can be seen in his daughters. He accepts the traditional path of Sansa but also encourages the independent fighting spirit of Arya and gives her fighting lessons.
I just got ASOW and AFFC in the mail today so I am very excited to continue reading :) I love keeping up with your chapter breakdowns
"If hindsight was blindness, that was dumb as hell". I lol'd hard at this. I'm loving the GoT content!
Your channel is my favourite GOT channel ❤️
Love From India
Coming back and listening to all the chapters again hoping gray will continue covering the books💙💙💙
Poor Ned, him and everyone close to him couldn’t catch a break
I will never have enough emotional prep time for what’s coming to Ned, and I knew what happened to him before I even saw an episode of GoT *OR* read the ASOIAF books 😩😩😩
I don't think Ned's promise to Lyanna involved fighting for Jon's claim. That's what the Kingsguard was doing in their attempt to stop Ned from entering the tower. That they fought suggests each side wanted something different for the baby. In fact, you could argue Ned's decision not to tell Jon about his mother until after Jon had taken his Watch vows-meaning after Jon renounced all claims to titles and inheritance- indicates Ned never intended to fight for Jon's birthright.
I think the promise Ned made to the dying Lyanna was the exact same promise he made to a dying Robert: "I shall guard your children (child) as if they were my own". Interestingly, in a previous Ned chapter, after promising the mother of a King's bastard (Barra's mother) that the child would be looked after, Ned immediately thinks of Jon. I believe that alluded to the promise to Lyanna as well.
GA!!!
I look forward to these videos every week. Luv ya Gray ❤
I find it interesting that both Ned and Jon have vaguely similar crypt dreams.
Also I wonder if Bran will be the one to revisit Roberts rebellion?
The thing is Ned belongs to the time when honour meant something. He, in the books, thinks of Arthur Dayne and other knights with him at the tower of joy and says to self people like him are of the era that is gone (something like this). Ned also believes in that and is willing to die for honour like those great knights did at the tower of joy. It's not that he is dumb, it's that he does not choose to function in an underhanded way
Sounds like what I am going through today.
Gray Area!!!
I totally agree. I think Ned's an oath breaker, and as he lied to robert he lied to Lyanna
Another great video! Thankyou
My Tin Foil theory is that Ned discovered his inner Warg at the last minute and he's been Ser Ilyn Payne since then . . .
Are you done with the scribbling? Pure Robert. Love it.
✌ it was awesome seeing you on Valar Rereadis, you killed it!
Thank you! It’s easy to kill it when Aziz is leading the way!
@@GrayArea Aziz is the champion for sure, but you are my Queen. I like to give you and indeepgeek credit for getting me so deep into ASOIAF. Thank you for you hard work over the years!
I am still very confused by killing Robert. Cersei absolutely had to kill him, after talking with Ned, but the plan was frankly horrible. Have a 15 year old to give the king strongwine and hope for an accident. It is a not a high probability assassination, and quite reckless on the part of Cersei. I heard the suppositions that the boar was skinchanged, but how would Cersei plan for this. Here is a description from another book of a king almost having been killed by a boar, which is how I picture it (as I read at a very young age): "Couching his lance, he darted at the boar which, held by the two bloodhounds, could not escape the blow. But at sight of the shining lance it turned to one side, and the weapon, instead of sinking into its breast, glided over its shoulder and blunted itself against the rock to which the animal had run.
"A thousand devils!" cried the King. "I have missed him. A spear! a spear!"
And bending back, as horsemen do when they are going to take a fence, he hurled his useless lance from him.
An outrider advanced and offered him another.
But at that moment, as though it foresaw the fate which awaited it, and which it wished to resist, by a violent effort the boar snatched its torn ears from the teeth of the bloodhounds, and with eyes bloody, protruding, hideous, its breath burning like the heat from a furnace, with chattering teeth and lowered head it sprang at the King's horse. Charles was too good a hunter not to have foreseen this. He turned his horse, which began to rear, but he had miscalculated the pressure, and the horse, too tightly reined in, or perhaps giving way to his fright, fell over backwards. The spectators gave a terrible cry: the horse had fallen, and the King's leg was under him.
"Your hand, sire, give me your hand," said Henry.
The King let go his horse's bridle, seized the saddle with his left hand, and tried to draw out his hunting knife with his right; but the knife, pressed into his belt by the weight of his body, would not come from its sheath.
"The boar! the boar!" cried Charles; "it is on me, D'Alençon! on me!"
The horse, recovering himself as if he understood his master's danger, stretched his muscles, and had already succeeded in getting up on its three legs, when, at the cry from his brother, Henry saw the Duc François grow frightfully pale and raise the musket to his shoulder, but, instead of striking the boar, which was but two feet from the King, the ball broke the knee of the horse, which fell down again, his nose touching the ground. At that instant the boar, with its snout, tore Charles's boot.
"Oh!" murmured D'Alençon with ashy lips, "I suppose that the Duc d'Anjou is King of France, and that I am King of Poland."
The boar was about to attack Charles's leg, when suddenly the latter felt someone raise his arm; then he saw the flash of a sharp-pointed blade which was driven into the shoulder of the boar and disappeared up to its guard, while a hand gloved in steel turned aside the head already poked under his clothes."
I'm not so sure, if Joffrey is easy to control, or not. It was Littlefingers whispering, that made Joffrey take Neds head, wasn't it?
But either way: Littlefingers goal is to get rid of Ned and Robert, to destabilise the realm, start a war and profit from its spoils. I don't know, if his plan was at this point, to get Harrenhall, Lysa and the Eyrie, but he was in need of a big castle to solidify his power. And with Joffrey on the throne and Stannis knowing of his origin, war was imminent.
Bring on the juice! The Long Night 🌉 is very long!
Excellent Episode! 👏🏼
Needed this today 🙌 thank you!
Juice Time!!!
To call him ‘dumb’ I think is wrong, it’s being overly dutiful that is his downfall. That’s what makes him more of a tragic character because he will question his actions, but ultimately will always choose his duty/honor over other things
He always underestimates the other players. That is not a sign of his smartness. He does not only take the "right" and honorable choice, but also thinks, that this will kinda work out,although he knows, that no one else plays this game honorably. Except maybe Stannis.
I don't think being excessively dutiful and honor bound was Ned's downfall. Assuming everyone else was like that too was his downfall.
@@ashleyofnaath no, you missed the entire point of his honor. Would Varys, Little Finger, Cat, etc etc etc...make the same decisions as him? I most assuredly feel that they wouldn’t based on what I read. He’s really been one of the only characters to take that route, sometimes it’s been blurred when one duty conflicts with the other; ie: Jon...but truthfully he could have allowed himself a fairly posh life for the times until the Others eventually came down to the world of men if was of the same mind as the others...but he often goes with what he feels is dutiful or honorable. He married CAT...CAT...who admittedly didn’t love him for duty and honorable, and it WAS a SMART decision Hendrik Lippa because they clearly would have ultimately lost without it.
@@ashleyofnaath I do see what you’re saying about his feelings towards the other players...and I do agree to a point, but he often has a fairly decent judgement of others. However, in no way does that make him “dumb”...which I know wasn’t your comment..but was my critic of the OG comment
I’ve missed this ❤️🙏🏽
Gray Lady returns
Hindsight isn’t always 20/20 Robert was who he was and so was Ned. Just because you’re put into a higher position doesn’t mean you’re the right fit. Being true to yourself is great for you but isn’t when everyone wants to rip you apart. Ned didn’t want this at all he was ordered to by his King, had he refused his entire house would have suffered a more severe consequence.
It was actually the Hound who holds up Ned's head in the show
I wish we’d seen Illyn Payne and Jaime sword fight training after Jaime lost his hand
Why is everyone having the same dream???, It all involves the cripts of winterfall. Jon bran Ned Dany.
Ned just made so many freaking mistakes in Kings Landing 😭
Yup freekin awesome channel 👏
The BIG tragedy is that Ned doesn't see where the REAL threat is... Oh, sure, he remembers the words "Winter is coming"... but he gives no credence to the others, the great other, the white walkers... even Giants. You'd think the Dire wolves coming south of the Wall should have been warning enough for him to revisit the legends of the long night and the others. I actually blame it on Riccard... who brought a southern Maester to Winterfell... and then Ned, in order to make Cat more comfortable, builds a scept and brings in a Septa. Riccard sent him off to the Erie for a good portion of his childhood... so what opportunity was there for the REAL threat to make itself known to Ned down to his bones? The north is better off isolating themselves from the rest of the Westeros... especially if they ALWAYS have be prepared for a coming Winter.
A telltale game the app was actually really fun. Turns out I’d suck at actually playing the game of thrones.
3 minutes in and im side eyeing 👀 your guest
Most do.
@@bossdoor you seem to think Robert killed the Targ kids.. Made me question if you know about this realm. But it's not my podcast so I digress
This book is just perfection.
I can't believe how they ruined the 8th season, and by that all show...
Ned is a bit dumb huh 😂
Love your content!!!
How about a North and South contrast.
Juice 🧃!
Wait! What happened to Ser Illyn Payne? What book did this happen? I’m rereading the books
He’s referring to the actor not the character.
@@ohhhmindy4380 the actor is actually still alive
I know, but he got extremely ill at the time of the show so had to back out.
Long story short:
Eddard Stark "I'm an Honorable man, I must hold Honor above all else."
Kings of Winter "You a whole BITCH"
Cregan Stark "agreed"
Hellooo Hellooo 🔥
💖💖💖💖💖💖💖
TGIW
🔥🐉🐉🐉
Imagine if people were putting this much time effort research and determination into things that actually matter and aren't a work of fiction that will probably never even see completion lol
People have different passions. It's what makes the world interesting. I get your point, though no one would have entertainment if people only focussed on those "important" things. No tv, no music, no fiction, no nuthin.
Yeah! How dare people enjoy entertainment?! Why aren't they working themselves to the bone 18 hours a day doing something that "matters"? FOH
@@made-line7627 that would be amazing