I don't recall if this was in your original video Matt, but I recall seeing Fort 221's captured by the Russians early on in 2022 with the bolt group having markings for 5.45x39 (I least I think I did).
One wonders if the Ukrainians will emulate the Czechs in enacting equivalent laws to allow private firearms ownership specifically for self defense in light of their experiences following February 2022.
@@terryfaugno9242 that conversation is probably going to be held after the dust settles and the survivors reintegrate back into peacetime life. It really is a shame there's all this war in the world, hopefully we can move towards a more peaceful timeline this decade.
@@terryfaugno9242hahahahah. Good one. Do you think all of the support from the west were merely a gift, a present? Western banks will hold their shares on the rebuilding and restructuring of Ukraine, including participation in their political landscape. EU clearly thinks a population that can defend itself is no good.
The US did receive a limited number of Tavor SAR rifles with the same iron sights as the FORT-221, it was marketed as the Tavor IDF, and equipped with a Meprolight 21M reflex sight, and it has the same polymer mounting boss for a magnifier as the FORT-221. Source: I have one such example in my personal collection.
@@GianmarioScotti At present, that would appear to be the most logical conclusion. Barring more conclusive proof, however, such as documentation or literature from either FORT or IWI, or confirmation from persons with firsthand knowledge, it remains in the realm of speculation.
It is the original Tarvor-21 sight before IWI US made the 2nd gen in US. Original Tarvor-21 SAR also imported with MARS sight. Mepro 21M only comes later.
The SAR-21 with the full length rail did have the rail too low. I had to put the Manticore raised rail on mine. Lost the BUIS but they were pretty marginal at best.
I think that has to do with gaining more and more trust over the years. If (private) collectors trust him with their guns worth tens of thousands (partially even hundreds of thousands) and let him tinker with them and nothing ever disappears or gets broken - the word gets around.
One of these days, We'll see a forgotten weapons upload titled "Chinese Type 63 rifle: Failed replacement of the AK and SKS". There's so little info on those rifles that it really is a "forgotten weapon" outside of the PRC.
I googled that thing. Jesus christ, its like a twin sibling for that bizarro M14 on 7.62x39 that Norinco made. What's up with the Chinese and semi automatic rifles from the 60s?
@@Schrodingers_kid Honestly, at this point it's not. There is a lot of indigenous solutions inside. Arguably one of the better AK conversions there is. I can link you detailed manual-pdf to look at if you(or anyone) want.
@@Woobeone Exactly. From what little info is available about the Malyuk, it appears to have more going for it than it being a simple bullpup conversion stock/chassis, as are available in the US market for some AK pattern rifles. Quite honestly, I think whoever manufactures the Malyuk chassis for the Ukrainian military would be well advised to consider exporting the chassis. There is one Ukrainian company, Kpyk, manufacturing and exporting AKM buttstocks, fore ends and other furniture that address the same market segment that Zenitco sold to in the US and their import partners regularly sell out of them in short order. There are a LOT of US AKM owners who'd happily buy a Malyuk chassis to drop an AKM in and help contribute in some part to Ukraine's war effort.
@@TheGhostOfPatrickHenry They are like turbo boomers that live on government money and government agents that would sell their stuff to iraq or something.
A note on the rear sight of the Tavor - those two little holes on either side of the peep sight appear to be for tritium vials. On top of the sight are two additional small holes, which are likely for inserted the vials, and the MH3 molded in the sight is also seen on a lot of Meprolight sights as well.
Hmm, former plastics process engineer. I suspect that these two receiver clamshells were made on different lines/molds. @ ~8:45, On the border around the take down pin is unembossed on the IWI with an injection or ejection mark of some sort just under it on the Fort the IWI doesn't have. The texture embossing is also more faded on the Fort. I suspect that IWI sold their old injection molding tooling to Fort.
With that level of production there are going to be several moulds. Not unheard of to flick off a mould with only a few thousand cycles left in it if you're making new ones anyway ...
Just a correction, "Fort" doesn't stand for anything, it's just the name of the organization. The full name is Казенне підприємство «Науково-виробниче об'єднання «Форт» , which would translate to "State(financed) enterprise 'Research-production association 'Fort'", so it's not an abbreviation of any kind.
Ukrainian here. I didn't serve in army in 2014-2022 (especially in procurement department), so I can't tell the full story, but. The main idea at that time was to slowly switch to NATO standards (including replacing a MASSIVE amount of AK / AK-74 with smth in 5.56). And do this without putting to much stress on army that fights actual war and being extremely limited in resources. So 5.56 round was adopted for specialized forces (SpecOps, SBU, GUR, border guard, etc) somwhere around 2017, along with Fort 221/224. To see how it will work out. I don't know numbers, but probably they were in range 10-50k. In 2019 political course had changed and some of reforms were put on pause. And in 2022 full-scale invasion happened and everything plummeted to chaos. I suspect Fort is still manufacturing these, but in what numbers and where do they go - I have no idea
Maluk/Vulkan was a better idea, since it was little more than adding a bullpup kit onto an existing AK. Biggest issue of Ukraine even before the whole clusterfuck of the war was total lack of new rifle barrel production on notable scale. Even after 2014 when new government took power and later on lost the ammunition factory in Luhansk, they didn't build a new factory despite stating that they are at war with Russia. Any European nation could have helped with setting this up. Corruption and inability to do what is right is what kills countries.
@@Max_Da_G I'd argue about "any European country would help" - before 2022 foreign support in military equipment was virtually nonexistent. West would deliver medical kits, protection, etc, but anything with a barrel was a big nono.
I do wonder if you guys could pull a Poland and make an AK in 5.56 as a stopgap rifle? I know that still requires a complete change in standard Service Rifle Caliber, but it would be much easier Logistics, Training, and Manufacturing wise than going full hog on a completely new Rifle at least.
For several years in the army, I never saw FORT 221. I saw them issued for military parades before the war. But I came across some from this channel lol. UK vz. 59, MG3 and PKM in one unit.
I'm guessing - with thousands and thousands of (free) AR rifles from the US and AK-variants from various other nations - there is probably little reason for Ukraine to buy these things from Israel.
@@stanislavczebinski994 The vast majority of brigades still use AK-74s. Old brigades have a reserve and do not require non-standard weapons. Exotics often end up in newly created or territorial defense units, foreign volunteer units. The story with Tavor is another attempt to portray that the army is moving to NATO standards
There's some photos/videos out there of Ukrainian police with Galatz and Negev during training in the mid 2010's. They were definitely in production, the Galatz more so than the Negev. RPC-Fort is owned by the Interior Ministry, which is why prior to '22 these were almost exclusively in the hands of National Guard, National Police, etc. They were also largely parade rifles for years. If you watch Independence Day parades from 2014-2018 you'll see these a lot. IIRC only some components were manufactured in Ukraine, basically the metal bits while the chassis was produced by IWI.
Yep, the National Guards were issued with Tavors UA and police special units. Our military said no to it and instead went with Malyuk (Vulkan-M) developed by ex UA armed forces officer.
In short: They would get supplied with parts from israel and assemble them in Vinnytsia with further plans to manufacture majority of parts in house. But huge orders never came, so they sticked to low volume assembling
I shot forte tavor in 5.45 number xxxx17. That was 2009. They were mostly used by MVD (now defunct). At least 5,000 iwi weapons were made for police/military use. They came with metro light. The one I shot broke the arms mount. It was select fire. The license was rescinded by a Putin/Netanyahu meeting 2016 or so. The galils were mostly 7.62x39. They had a different finish and definitely not full iwi. Guns started as parts and manufacturing was done in Ukraine, I think the barrels were brought in. For negevs only 500 or so. Unfortunately Yanukovichs siloviki stole a lot. THEY WERE MADE IN Ukraine by 2012 or so. Your suspicion is somewhat wrong
Many of these fought in Debatlseva with mvd sf, commander of Azov and defense minister both carried x95s, though inn5.56 using Russian wolf ammo, lol. Ukraine was under western embargo, even friendly countries were prevented from transferring old 5.45 and new 5.56 to Ukraine. Exception was expensive hunting ammo or later GGG/sako type 5.56. The 5.45 was an awesome gun to shoot, the mags were a problem. C-product type things. The one we shot ran fine inn400 rounds mag dumping, but they were the two mags made and serialized to the gun. Others had problems past 25 rounds. Tavor .308 galaxy were around but mostly used by Ukrainian protective services/SBU and few mvd units. Lots of crap dissspeared when Yanukovich fled, he was a gun guy but a real shitty moffia dude. He treated his guys like king pirates
They were produced primarily for interior ministry and definitely in service when I lived there full time by 2009. The army was being downsized, the interior troops were on the rise as Yanukovich was doing Russian bidding. The annual parade always had a few thousand being carried for boss look.
i had that on other plastic parts i serviced moulds, in some cases it's for improving on a second production line or to adjust for slightly different materials being injected. im most cases to cheap out over the production process.
Probably organized crime. They need to get their guns from somewhere, and if the domestic manufacturing base doesn't really sell to non-government entities, the the weapons will start trickling in from the nearest place with available guns and looser export restrictions.
Fort-222 - with an elongated barrel and bipods Fort-223 is a shortened version Fort-224 - subcompact version and 9 mm submachine gun (length 580 mm, barrel length - 330 mm) there is no separate marking for 5.45 it is also worth noting that for the 5.45 version, magazines are not used from AK (which would be logical, military warehouses are full of them, since 5.45 is the standard caliber in Ukraine) but special magazines, visually very similar to magazines for the AR system
In 1946, Kalashnikov's main competitor was designer Bulkin, and his assault rifle had advantages. But Bulkin was extremely stubborn. The bolt of his rifle had a cylindrical base with a curly cutout that interacted with a transverse pin. (as on Tavor TAR) But the experts of the landfill said that it is impossible to have a force load so close to the axis of rotation of the shutter, this can lead to delays in firing when weapons are contaminated. But Bulkin was stubborn and did not alter the shutter. But Kalashnikov acted differently and always rebuilt the mechanisms of the rifle in accordance with the requirements of GRAO weapons specialists.
YES YES YES I'VE BEEN WAITING SO LONG FOR THIS. I haven't been this excited since the HCAR or the GM-6 Lynx. The only other gun I've NEEDED a ForgottenWeapons video about for years on end is the AA-12. If Ian does more Ukraine content like he promised 2 years ago I would LOVE to see him talk about the Malyuk
I am familiar with Fort weapons. They served me well...when playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl. 😄 BTW: Phew - that iron sight barrel offset makes a P90 or M16 look like a sniper rifle by comparison! Forget a 12 O'clock aim position; more like a high moon position!
The area of the serial numbers shows that a mold from IWI was modified to make the other one - the lettering on the square was milled out, the IWI crest seems to have been milled out and a metal plug inserted with raised sign. The TAVOR appears to be covered by a weld in the form.
When I purchased my SAR-21 the impetus to do so was the eminent availability of a 5.45x39 conversion kit. I was quite disappointed when that was dropped when (I suspect) IWI-US was given early notice of the ATF's intention to ban the 7n6 munition that I was well stacked with. I was eager to pull the trigger on the limited production Galil ACE in 5.45x39 and quite happy that it used AK74 magazines which I am well stacked with as well. The story from IWI-US was that they couldn't source a satisfactory magazine for the 5.45 Tavor which is obvious BS since they source their 9mm Tavor Colt SMG pattern magazines from the manufacturer of the best 5.45 AR magazines in the country.
I don't know what country the parts came from, but I'm very sure the plastic stock part is made using a substantially different mold. The little circle under the pinhole is a hint (could just be wear on the mold) but more importantly, the pinhole itself doesn't have texturing all the way around it on the israeli one, but it does on the Fort. That's a piece of mask they left off when applying texture in the mold. Different mold, probably made under more time pressure. Slightly looser tolerances on and around the ejector pins works fine and saves time on production, but it leaves small circular marks like the one under the pin. Source: experience from working on molds in a plastic injection molding factory.
The original concept for that game was so much more interesting and provocative than the final one though, i LIKE Altis and Stratis and all the CSAT conspiracy junk but the real deal would have made it the most controversial war game ever.
@@gabrielinostroza4989As long as video games don't depict the USA bullying some benevolent state or legitimate freedom fighters into submission, they're all good.
Light google search provides me with this Fort 221 exists in 5,56х45 / 5,45х39 calibers Fort 222 Longer barrel and bipod Fort 223 Short barrel version Fort 224 submachine gun with 9 mm Luger cartridge I hope one day we will more videos about modern Ukrainian weapon here, like Snipex Alligator, Horizon Lord or Zbroyar rifles
Those sights are the same as what was used on the original IWI gen 1 Tavor. The rear sight with the two holes on either side is actually so you can place tridium lamps in them.
I did notice that the circular injection moulding impression are missing on the Israeli body. 9:02, just above the armoury logo and 9:22, just above the bottom screw.
I don't know much about FORT, but I seem to recall hearing that the Tavor didn't function very well with polymer magazines. They seemed to function well with aluminum magazines though.
Back to the folding sights on civilian versions, there were earlier produced tar 21 that came into Canada that was set up very similarly to this firearm and were available for civilian purchase, some also came with an early mepro 21 dot sight that was built in. The Gen 1.5 and Gen 2 versions of the tar 21 came into Canada later on and had a full length lower picatinny rail with fold down iron sights that went flush with the rail itself.
sorry for bad english so basicly those rifles manufactured in Ukraine are made mostly in 5,45 or 7,62x39 which can use original or modern Ak mags. mostly those r used by national guard and SSO (ukranian military spec ops who require best weaponary because usualy they are tasked with the hardest missions possible). Also FORT produced little number of Negev machine copies and single loaded grenade launchers
They were actually not really produced by Fort, it was almost complete parts set gotten from IWI that was finally assembled here. The magazines for 5.56 were standard metal STANAGs and almost the same looking metal ones for 5.45. As far the Tavor hadn't been popuar due to its reliability issues (seems that Fort didn't get the same manufacturing quality), they put the project aside. Nowadays most the manufacturing facilities were moved abroad and there is high demand of other small arms pieces they produce, so no Tavors in production. BTW, there was a tiny batch that came to covilian market at the very beginning of production but they we really expencive and at the same time poorly made, so most of them were returned to manufacturer.
That would explain the substitution of (apparently) common inexpensive zinc galvanized Pjillips head screws oj the Fort where the IMI built and assembled Tavor uses (apparently) higher quality blackened spline drive screws.
Export versions of the Fort-221 were in 5.56, versions for the Ukrainian army and Azov were in 5.45. Special forces used both. Production seems to have ended or is done on a very limited basis. Most of the Tavors seen in Azov's hands were supplied by Israel, not Fort.
I remember when i was a kid every year there was a military "show-room" on the street. Drones, ATGMs, AA-guns, mortars, IFVs etc. The main examples of ukranian small arms were Barret, tuned AKS-74N and variety of Fort rifles and pistols. In my 14 year old´s arms that exact Fort felt like soviet APS, that was shown nearby. Weight almost perfectly sighted on your right arm. The difference with the Ian´s Fort was Eotech with some kind of kill flash on it. Trigger is smooth, but was very light. Maybe because i got used to dummy 1954 AKS that was in our school.
I wonder if the small batch purchase was in order to assist with development with the Malyuk. Obviously the Malyuk is recent and the IWI license was a long time ago but the Malyk has been in development for a long time and the Vepr was a bit of a failure.
Mr Ian, just a request, unrelated to the Ukrainian bullpup, would it be possible when you cover historical weaponry if you could give a conversation for today's dollars when you mention the price of the weapon at the time. Otherwise, great videos, very informative, and you are an excellent presenter. Anyway, that's all I have for you today, thanks for reading.
The Fort 221 uses different (and likely cheaper) screws - note those two shiny Pjillips head screws that look right out of thebscrew bin at the hardware store where the Tavor appears to use black (apparently) spline drive screws.
Interesting thing about fort is that's Ukrainian DShV uses 5.45 version with its own magazines. They looks like standard stanag 5.56 from m16, but little more curved. And this magazines had some reliability issues
So long as it doesn't overstep any laws it would be interesting to know how collections come into possession of a weapon like that. It seems an odd thing to end up with the French. Top video, thanks for the content.
These rifles have been pretty rare to see as the war goes on, but the most I saw at once was actually a warehouse of these captured by the Russians very early in the war, so they actually have a fair amount of them probably.
@@Pointman138 do you know why they were in a warehouse to be captured? Nobody ever uses these. These are terrible. No idea how they perform, but they are terrible to manage as they break constantly without even doing anything. Mags fall out by themselves jsut because they feel like it. If russians ever use them - I will laugh my ass off, as that would mean it was sabotage to give them these.
@@TheKarabanera if I’m remembering correctly it was a warehouse/armory that was in an area overrun very very early by the Russians at the start of the war, I’m talking like first day or two
If I had a dollar for every time there has been a classified document shared on War Thunder forums, I'd have $13. Which isn't a lot of money, but it's weird it has happened THIRTEEN TIMES!
For future posterity in the off-chance someone comes across this and somehow doesn't know; the 'fairly obvious' reason information is hard to find on the weapon is because Russia is currently in the middle of sucking at invading Ukraine so getting information there is pretty low priority compared to actually trying to push the Russians out of their sovereign territory.
If I remember correctly didn’t a bunch get destroyed or captured or at least briefly captured when hostomel was initially captured by the VDV. I know Ukraine got it back under control soon after, but I remember seeing pics of a VDV dude next to crates of Fort 221’s.
As an Israeli, I can tell you that as a people, there's no ambivalence nor ambiguity. We're all for Ukraine. Ukraine is a western style nation with democracy and human rights, while Russia is in bed with Iran, which literally wants to kill us all. Politicians were scared to say it too loudly, because there's a large Russian presence in Syria just to our north, but this was a mistake.
i think answer simplest than you think, i'm sure that kind of selling up pre manufactured plastic molds by Tavor, or something dumb like tavor sending cad drawing and then maker won't (can't) make any change in it, then make decision make metal inserts
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for the shout out Ian! Really great to see one of these up close.
Really glad both Jonathan Ferguson and Ian McCollum recognise and promote your briliant channel
@@ch4ndemic thank you! It's great to be part of a community with other great channels.
I don't recall if this was in your original video Matt, but I recall seeing Fort 221's captured by the Russians early on in 2022 with the bolt group having markings for 5.45x39 (I least I think I did).
@@TheArmourersBench my dude, your videos are awesome, please never stop!
@@alexisXcore93 thank you! Too much to cover to stop, no fear there haha
"We don't intend this to become War Thunder forums"
And he does it again, ladies and gentlemen
Challenge Accepted!
Hahahaha class!
Time stamp? I missed it
10:50
TIME TO LEAK SEKRIT DOCUMENTS
Ironically unobtainium in Ukraine due to overall length being too short for it to be legal to own, despite Fort selling firearms to civilian market
One wonders if the Ukrainians will emulate the Czechs in enacting equivalent laws to allow private firearms ownership specifically for self defense in light of their experiences following February 2022.
@@terryfaugno9242 that conversation is probably going to be held after the dust settles and the survivors reintegrate back into peacetime life. It really is a shame there's all this war in the world, hopefully we can move towards a more peaceful timeline this decade.
@@terryfaugno9242hahahahah. Good one. Do you think all of the support from the west were merely a gift, a present? Western banks will hold their shares on the rebuilding and restructuring of Ukraine, including participation in their political landscape. EU clearly thinks a population that can defend itself is no good.
@@MegaWillinator Here's hoping.
@MegaWillinator it's only gonna get worse till jesus comes back. 🙏
The US did receive a limited number of Tavor SAR rifles with the same iron sights as the FORT-221, it was marketed as the Tavor IDF, and equipped with a Meprolight 21M reflex sight, and it has the same polymer mounting boss for a magnifier as the FORT-221.
Source: I have one such example in my personal collection.
Which suggests that the Fort 221 was, likewise, likely made in israel.
@@GianmarioScotti
At present, that would appear to be the most logical conclusion.
Barring more conclusive proof, however, such as documentation or literature from either FORT or IWI, or confirmation from persons with firsthand knowledge, it remains in the realm of speculation.
It is the original Tarvor-21 sight before IWI US made the 2nd gen in US. Original Tarvor-21 SAR also imported with MARS sight. Mepro 21M only comes later.
The SAR-21 with the full length rail did have the rail too low. I had to put the Manticore raised rail on mine. Lost the BUIS but they were pretty marginal at best.
Doesn't have an ITL Mars.
Not gonna make it.
A 'youtuber' getting this kind of acces in France is nothing less than exceptional. A real testament to the quality of this channel.
I think that has to do with gaining more and more trust over the years. If (private) collectors trust him with their guns worth tens of thousands (partially even hundreds of thousands) and let him tinker with them and nothing ever disappears or gets broken - the word gets around.
Ian is not a youtuber, he is an expert and a collector who has written books about the topic.
Waddaya mean, we have a president and a prime minister that both are tiktok creators.
He was only able to sell those books because of his youtube channel.
@@CarrotConsumersold books before youtube. Gun jesus is not a tv saviour
One of these days, We'll see a forgotten weapons upload titled "Chinese Type 63 rifle: Failed replacement of the AK and SKS". There's so little info on those rifles that it really is a "forgotten weapon" outside of the PRC.
August 28.
@@ForgottenWeapons A whuuuuuaaaattttt?????
This gun was featured in Black Ops: Cold War, but it was semi auto only in-game, unlike its real counterpart
@@ForgottenWeaponsgun Jesus is coming down from the mountain with another piece of forbidden knowledge from the gun gods!
I googled that thing. Jesus christ, its like a twin sibling for that bizarro M14 on 7.62x39 that Norinco made.
What's up with the Chinese and semi automatic rifles from the 60s?
Let us know whenever you get your hands on a Malyuk Ian
I doubt it would be an interesting video, honestly
It's an AK in a different wrapper
@@Schrodingers_kid Honestly, at this point it's not. There is a lot of indigenous solutions inside. Arguably one of the better AK conversions there is. I can link you detailed manual-pdf to look at if you(or anyone) want.
link. @@Woobeone
@@Woobeoneit is still an Ak-74/47 internally.
What they change is the mag release.
@@Woobeone
Exactly. From what little info is available about the Malyuk, it appears to have more going for it than it being a simple bullpup conversion stock/chassis, as are available in the US market for some AK pattern rifles.
Quite honestly, I think whoever manufactures the Malyuk chassis for the Ukrainian military would be well advised to consider exporting the chassis. There is one Ukrainian company, Kpyk, manufacturing and exporting AKM buttstocks, fore ends and other furniture that address the same market segment that Zenitco sold to in the US and their import partners regularly sell out of them in short order. There are a LOT of US AKM owners who'd happily buy a Malyuk chassis to drop an AKM in and help contribute in some part to Ukraine's war effort.
Вітання з України, дякую за твої відео Іане! Greetings from Ukraine, Thanks for your videos Ian!
потужней дякуй :)
It's kinda easy to contact them (RPC Fort), pretty sure they would gladly invite you if you let them know that you exist
They absolutely would.
And they are in one of the safer regions too, so it may be not too far fetched
If a gun manufacturer is unaware of the existence of Gun Jesus, they're not a real gun manufacturer.
@@TheGhostOfPatrickHenry the guy you like so much, mister Browning, is not aware of "Jesus of Guns"
@@TheGhostOfPatrickHenry They are like turbo boomers that live on government money and government agents that would sell their stuff to iraq or something.
@@worldoftancraft thats Gun Joseph Smith, being as he was mormon and all
A note on the rear sight of the Tavor - those two little holes on either side of the peep sight appear to be for tritium vials. On top of the sight are two additional small holes, which are likely for inserted the vials, and the MH3 molded in the sight is also seen on a lot of Meprolight sights as well.
Hmm, former plastics process engineer. I suspect that these two receiver clamshells were made on different lines/molds. @ ~8:45, On the border around the take down pin is unembossed on the IWI with an injection or ejection mark of some sort just under it on the Fort the IWI doesn't have. The texture embossing is also more faded on the Fort. I suspect that IWI sold their old injection molding tooling to Fort.
Makes sense...
With that level of production there are going to be several moulds. Not unheard of to flick off a mould with only a few thousand cycles left in it if you're making new ones anyway ...
As a collector of Warhammer miniatures for 35 years, I can second this. >_< Old cast energy.
Just a correction, "Fort" doesn't stand for anything, it's just the name of the organization. The full name is Казенне підприємство «Науково-виробниче об'єднання «Форт» , which would translate to "State(financed) enterprise 'Research-production association 'Fort'", so it's not an abbreviation of any kind.
Also, Fort means a fort :)
Fort is a Fortnite reference
@@ssneg yup, it's like naming a maker "castle", "citadel" or "chateau". I will be surprised if the latter isn't some local wine brand.
Id love for Ian to hopefully one day come across an APS underwater rifle, definitely a forgotton and unique weapon
Me too!
That would be wild to see Ian shooting it underwater if he got ahold of one.
Wouldn't it be hard what with the whole walking on water thing?
@@joelsoetendorp3279 He can walk on water upside down. Easy.
@@Top_Weeb Gotta be honest, this got me laughing harder than it should have
Ukrainian here. I didn't serve in army in 2014-2022 (especially in procurement department), so I can't tell the full story, but.
The main idea at that time was to slowly switch to NATO standards (including replacing a MASSIVE amount of AK / AK-74 with smth in 5.56). And do this without putting to much stress on army that fights actual war and being extremely limited in resources.
So 5.56 round was adopted for specialized forces (SpecOps, SBU, GUR, border guard, etc) somwhere around 2017, along with Fort 221/224. To see how it will work out. I don't know numbers, but probably they were in range 10-50k.
In 2019 political course had changed and some of reforms were put on pause.
And in 2022 full-scale invasion happened and everything plummeted to chaos. I suspect Fort is still manufacturing these, but in what numbers and where do they go - I have no idea
Maluk/Vulkan was a better idea, since it was little more than adding a bullpup kit onto an existing AK. Biggest issue of Ukraine even before the whole clusterfuck of the war was total lack of new rifle barrel production on notable scale. Even after 2014 when new government took power and later on lost the ammunition factory in Luhansk, they didn't build a new factory despite stating that they are at war with Russia. Any European nation could have helped with setting this up. Corruption and inability to do what is right is what kills countries.
@@Max_Da_G I'd argue about "any European country would help" - before 2022 foreign support in military equipment was virtually nonexistent. West would deliver medical kits, protection, etc, but anything with a barrel was a big nono.
I will say, being captured by & being made an American proxy, is what gets countries killed.
i.e:
Ukraine
Germany
France
UK
Holland
Etc...
@@generalmarkmilleyisbenedic8895 The USSR died 30 years ago and it's never coming back.
I do wonder if you guys could pull a Poland and make an AK in 5.56 as a stopgap rifle? I know that still requires a complete change in standard Service Rifle Caliber, but it would be much easier Logistics, Training, and Manufacturing wise than going full hog on a completely new Rifle at least.
For several years in the army, I never saw FORT 221. I saw them issued for military parades before the war. But I came across some from this channel lol. UK vz. 59, MG3 and PKM in one unit.
I saw a vid with a few boxes with those captured by ruzkies, while battle for Kyiv in 2022.
@@smertrusne3156 Cause territorial defence got some, mostly btw civilian version. If im not mistaken its vepr something or else.
I'm guessing - with thousands and thousands of (free) AR rifles from the US and AK-variants from various other nations - there is probably little reason for Ukraine to buy these things from Israel.
@@stanislavczebinski994 also bullpups aren't a great idea for regular soldiers in trenches. Its more like a specialist weapon now.
@@stanislavczebinski994 The vast majority of brigades still use AK-74s. Old brigades have a reserve and do not require non-standard weapons. Exotics often end up in newly created or territorial defense units, foreign volunteer units.
The story with Tavor is another attempt to portray that the army is moving to NATO standards
The obvious question is "How did les gendarmes get hold of that piece?".
It's a fun story that I am not at liberty to share.
@@ForgottenWeapons sadly.
@@ForgottenWeapons hon hon hon (sadly)
Phillips screws. Flat head screws and some fit and finish differences! But otherwise the same maybe!
The secret ingredient is classified.
There's some photos/videos out there of Ukrainian police with Galatz and Negev during training in the mid 2010's. They were definitely in production, the Galatz more so than the Negev. RPC-Fort is owned by the Interior Ministry, which is why prior to '22 these were almost exclusively in the hands of National Guard, National Police, etc. They were also largely parade rifles for years. If you watch Independence Day parades from 2014-2018 you'll see these a lot. IIRC only some components were manufactured in Ukraine, basically the metal bits while the chassis was produced by IWI.
Yep, the National Guards were issued with Tavors UA and police special units. Our military said no to it and instead went with Malyuk (Vulkan-M) developed by ex UA armed forces officer.
In short: They would get supplied with parts from israel and assemble them in Vinnytsia with further plans to manufacture majority of parts in house. But huge orders never came, so they sticked to low volume assembling
how to hide arms trades and exact numbers while fooling the GRU ;)
Would be great to see you reviewing the Fort 12 and Fort 17 pistols one day, too.
Or the Malyuk, if you ever manage to miraculously obtain one.
Have they been exported?
And, if he does that, I hope he has a CZ-75 on hand to compare them, because they are extremely similar
or one of 14.5x114mm Snipex rifles
Greetings from Odesa, Ukraine! Thank you Ian! I'm a fan of your channel.
I shot forte tavor in 5.45 number xxxx17. That was 2009. They were mostly used by MVD (now defunct). At least 5,000 iwi weapons were made for police/military use. They came with metro light. The one I shot broke the arms mount. It was select fire. The license was rescinded by a Putin/Netanyahu meeting 2016 or so. The galils were mostly 7.62x39. They had a different finish and definitely not full iwi. Guns started as parts and manufacturing was done in Ukraine, I think the barrels were brought in. For negevs only 500 or so. Unfortunately Yanukovichs siloviki stole a lot. THEY WERE MADE IN Ukraine by 2012 or so. Your suspicion is somewhat wrong
I have pics, I’ve emailed you before
Not saying more here
Many of these fought in Debatlseva with mvd sf, commander of Azov and defense minister both carried x95s, though inn5.56 using Russian wolf ammo, lol. Ukraine was under western embargo, even friendly countries were prevented from transferring old 5.45 and new 5.56 to Ukraine. Exception was expensive hunting ammo or later GGG/sako type 5.56. The 5.45 was an awesome gun to shoot, the mags were a problem. C-product type things. The one we shot ran fine inn400 rounds mag dumping, but they were the two mags made and serialized to the gun. Others had problems past 25 rounds. Tavor .308 galaxy were around but mostly used by Ukrainian protective services/SBU and few mvd units. Lots of crap dissspeared when Yanukovich fled, he was a gun guy but a real shitty moffia dude. He treated his guys like king pirates
They were produced primarily for interior ministry and definitely in service when I lived there full time by 2009. The army was being downsized, the interior troops were on the rise as Yanukovich was doing Russian bidding. The annual parade always had a few thousand being carried for boss look.
the armourers bench is a great channel.
5:27 That mount can also be used to apply a sight for a grenade launcher. It also appears on the Israeli X-95 variant
even if it's Israeli-made, the injection moulding forms are clearly different (ejection pins are in different places).
i had that on other plastic parts i serviced moulds, in some cases it's for improving on a second production line or to adjust for slightly different materials being injected. im most cases to cheap out over the production process.
Ver Interesting; thank you for the time and effort you put into these videos.
Вітання з України! Ми дивимося Ваші відео.
Да напутал он все, не нахваливайте )))
@@xjax8519 Тебе не питав.
@@installshieldwizard3017 Кто эти "все" ты и твои собаки ??
@@installshieldwizard3017 Як бачиш,ні.
American Gun Owners care about you all in Ukraine
The Gendarmerie seems to have quite the collection of mysterious Eastern bloc weaponry.
I bet some are taken in raids in cooperation with EU Euro-pol against weapons smuggling networks
Probably organized crime. They need to get their guns from somewhere, and if the domestic manufacturing base doesn't really sell to non-government entities, the the weapons will start trickling in from the nearest place with available guns and looser export restrictions.
@@tomhenry897 That, and the fact that the GIGN is also part of the Gendarmerie. They tend to go to a lot of places that regular Gendarmes don't.
Fort-222 - with an elongated barrel and bipods
Fort-223 is a shortened version
Fort-224 - subcompact version and 9 mm submachine gun (length 580 mm, barrel length - 330 mm)
there is no separate marking for 5.45
it is also worth noting that for the 5.45 version, magazines are not used from AK (which would be logical, military warehouses are full of them, since 5.45 is the standard caliber in Ukraine) but special magazines, visually very similar to magazines for the AR system
In 1946, Kalashnikov's main competitor was designer Bulkin, and his assault rifle had advantages. But Bulkin was extremely stubborn. The bolt of his rifle had a cylindrical base with a curly cutout that interacted with a transverse pin. (as on Tavor TAR) But the experts of the landfill said that it is impossible to have a force load so close to the axis of rotation of the shutter, this can lead to delays in firing when weapons are contaminated. But Bulkin was stubborn and did not alter the shutter. But Kalashnikov acted differently and always rebuilt the mechanisms of the rifle in accordance with the requirements of GRAO weapons specialists.
War Thunder Forums reference was based
YES YES YES I'VE BEEN WAITING SO LONG FOR THIS. I haven't been this excited since the HCAR or the GM-6 Lynx. The only other gun I've NEEDED a ForgottenWeapons video about for years on end is the AA-12. If Ian does more Ukraine content like he promised 2 years ago I would LOVE to see him talk about the Malyuk
Finally one of my favorite games got a shout out by Ian! :D
I am familiar with Fort weapons. They served me well...when playing S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl. 😄
BTW: Phew - that iron sight barrel offset makes a P90 or M16 look like a sniper rifle by comparison! Forget a 12 O'clock aim position; more like a high moon position!
Oh good.
I wasn't the only one having flashbacks to taking Major Kuznetsov's Fort-15.
@@LRK-GT - that pistol worked remarkably well - one of my favs! Gotta go back reply that game with some mods.
They also have bullpup AK called Malyuk (Vulcan)
The area of the serial numbers shows that a mold from IWI was modified to make the other one - the lettering on the square was milled out, the IWI crest seems to have been milled out and a metal plug inserted with raised sign. The TAVOR appears to be covered by a weld in the form.
When I purchased my SAR-21 the impetus to do so was the eminent availability of a 5.45x39 conversion kit. I was quite disappointed when that was dropped when (I suspect) IWI-US was given early notice of the ATF's intention to ban the 7n6 munition that I was well stacked with. I was eager to pull the trigger on the limited production Galil ACE in 5.45x39 and quite happy that it used AK74 magazines which I am well stacked with as well. The story from IWI-US was that they couldn't source a satisfactory magazine for the 5.45 Tavor which is obvious BS since they source their 9mm Tavor Colt SMG pattern magazines from the manufacturer of the best 5.45 AR magazines in the country.
5:06 Interesting there are 2 blind holes on either side of the appeture. For Lumonous inserts maybe?
I don't know what country the parts came from, but I'm very sure the plastic stock part is made using a substantially different mold. The little circle under the pinhole is a hint (could just be wear on the mold) but more importantly, the pinhole itself doesn't have texturing all the way around it on the israeli one, but it does on the Fort. That's a piece of mask they left off when applying texture in the mold. Different mold, probably made under more time pressure. Slightly looser tolerances on and around the ejector pins works fine and saves time on production, but it leaves small circular marks like the one under the pin. Source: experience from working on molds in a plastic injection molding factory.
Arma 3 was so cool that they made it into a real thing
The original concept for that game was so much more interesting and provocative than the final one though, i LIKE Altis and Stratis and all the CSAT conspiracy junk but the real deal would have made it the most controversial war game ever.
@@gabrielinostroza4989As long as video games don't depict the USA bullying some benevolent state or legitimate freedom fighters into submission, they're all good.
The plastic furniture looks like it came from the door panel of a 2002 Dodge Neon.
😆
Light google search provides me with this
Fort 221 exists in 5,56х45 / 5,45х39 calibers
Fort 222 Longer barrel and bipod
Fort 223 Short barrel version
Fort 224 submachine gun with 9 mm Luger cartridge
I hope one day we will more videos about modern Ukrainian weapon here, like Snipex Alligator, Horizon Lord or Zbroyar rifles
Those sights are the same as what was used on the original IWI gen 1 Tavor. The rear sight with the two holes on either side is actually so you can place tridium lamps in them.
I did notice that the circular injection moulding impression are missing on the Israeli body. 9:02, just above the armoury logo and 9:22, just above the bottom screw.
I don't know much about FORT, but I seem to recall hearing that the Tavor didn't function very well with polymer magazines. They seemed to function well with aluminum magazines though.
I find it interesting when an example of a small arm introduces more questions than answers.
The casting marks on the rear of the polymer shell that is a difference
So Ian, did you remove the other video from this morning, or did RUclips take it down?
I removed it; it wasn't supposed to publish yet.
Please make a video on vulkan m, maluk ar
Back to the folding sights on civilian versions, there were earlier produced tar 21 that came into Canada that was set up very similarly to this firearm and were available for civilian purchase, some also came with an early mepro 21 dot sight that was built in. The Gen 1.5 and Gen 2 versions of the tar 21 came into Canada later on and had a full length lower picatinny rail with fold down iron sights that went flush with the rail itself.
sorry for bad english
so basicly those rifles manufactured in Ukraine are made mostly in 5,45 or 7,62x39 which can use original or modern Ak mags. mostly those r used by national guard and SSO (ukranian military spec ops who require best weaponary because usualy they are tasked with the hardest missions possible). Also FORT produced little number of Negev machine copies and single loaded grenade launchers
2009s Modern Warfare 2 rifles are back on the menu, boysss!!
Really looking forward to your review of Malyuk, been hearing a lot of positive stuff about if from our soldiers :)
There's a circular detail (mould ejector mark?) on the Fort just above the logo that isn't there on the IWI.
They were actually not really produced by Fort, it was almost complete parts set gotten from IWI that was finally assembled here. The magazines for 5.56 were standard metal STANAGs and almost the same looking metal ones for 5.45. As far the Tavor hadn't been popuar due to its reliability issues (seems that Fort didn't get the same manufacturing quality), they put the project aside. Nowadays most the manufacturing facilities were moved abroad and there is high demand of other small arms pieces they produce, so no Tavors in production. BTW, there was a tiny batch that came to covilian market at the very beginning of production but they we really expencive and at the same time poorly made, so most of them were returned to manufacturer.
That would explain the substitution of (apparently) common inexpensive zinc galvanized Pjillips head screws oj the Fort where the IMI built and assembled Tavor uses (apparently) higher quality blackened spline drive screws.
Export versions of the Fort-221 were in 5.56, versions for the Ukrainian army and Azov were in 5.45. Special forces used both. Production seems to have ended or is done on a very limited basis. Most of the Tavors seen in Azov's hands were supplied by Israel, not Fort.
Never though a licensed copy of a firearm to be one of the most interesting things I get to think about for a month or so.
I remember when i was a kid every year there was a military "show-room" on the street. Drones, ATGMs, AA-guns, mortars, IFVs etc. The main examples of ukranian small arms were Barret, tuned AKS-74N and variety of Fort rifles and pistols. In my 14 year old´s arms that exact Fort felt like soviet APS, that was shown nearby. Weight almost perfectly sighted on your right arm. The difference with the Ian´s Fort was Eotech with some kind of kill flash on it. Trigger is smooth, but was very light. Maybe because i got used to dummy 1954 AKS that was in our school.
Thanks for the insight about the Fort-221, the Ukrainian clone of the TAR-21 Tavor, one of the best bullpup assault rifles ever concieved.
in 2015, I saw samples with a collimator and a metal magazine of the M-16 type (30 cartridges) for 5.45*39 in intelligence units
I wonder if the small batch purchase was in order to assist with development with the Malyuk. Obviously the Malyuk is recent and the IWI license was a long time ago but the Malyk has been in development for a long time and the Vepr was a bit of a failure.
I absolutely love the design of the Fort-17. I would buy one very quickly if we had imports
Mr Ian, just a request, unrelated to the Ukrainian bullpup, would it be possible when you cover historical weaponry if you could give a conversation for today's dollars when you mention the price of the weapon at the time.
Otherwise, great videos, very informative, and you are an excellent presenter.
Anyway, that's all I have for you today, thanks for reading.
I’d love to see a форт-250 rifle showcased on the channel
Are my eyes decieving me, or does one of the stock moldings have clearly visible ejector marks, but not so for the other?
Waiting for Maluyk video (the factory-made bullpup AK for UA spec ops)
Would love an episode on the snipex alligator. Especially since it has a confirmed kill over a mile.
The Fort 221 uses different (and likely cheaper) screws - note those two shiny Pjillips head screws that look right out of thebscrew bin at the hardware store where the Tavor appears to use black (apparently) spline drive screws.
the Ukrainian and Israeli serial numbers appear to have used a different stamping tool. not sure if that matters much.
That's the most beautiful thing I've seen all week.
I'll trade you 2 jellyfishes and 8 tourist's delights for that rifle.
Ian should be a French mascot
Oui!
Ukrainian license of an Israeli gun. Where's the French link?
@@WorldCupWillie The gun is in the possession of the French National Police Ballistics Lab
@matthewgallagher8491 Gendarmerie, pas Police Nationale...
Gendarmerie, not National Police...
@@matthewgallagher8491 oh, OK. I missed that 🤦🏼 sorry
Mr mccollum, please do a video on malyuk, the Ukrainian bullpup AK. It got some interesting features.
yeah, it was in 5,45. I've seen it. Magazines were exact or very similar to 5,56. native mags are metal stanags.
I hope they have a reproduction run of these in the future it was such a lovely rifle i remember when it was brand new
it would be cool if this showed up in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. 2
2:28 "This guy, he was an interior decorator!"
"...His house looked like shit."
Interesting thing about fort is that's Ukrainian DShV uses 5.45 version with its own magazines. They looks like standard stanag 5.56 from m16, but little more curved. And this magazines had some reliability issues
Remind me of the KH2002 from battlefield 3 for some reason.
The four holes on the side and the bullpup layout. The raised rail may also remind you of the KH carry handle.
That thing was one of the first OP guns early on. God I can't believe that was a decade ago 🤯
So long as it doesn't overstep any laws it would be interesting to know how collections come into possession of a weapon like that. It seems an odd thing to end up with the French. Top video, thanks for the content.
You should review the Ukrainian Vulcan, it would be much more interesting than just reviewing a copy like this one.
Make a video on Fort pistol , it’s hard to obtain In Ukraine and it’s made by Ukrainian company that made this rifle
Reminds me of the South African FN FALs sent to Rhodesia with the logo cut out of the mag well
Great info, really enjoyed, thanks
Nice that it has Iron Sights. Given its bolt system, it's almost like having a modernized bullpup AK descendant.
The only thing from ak is the return spring placement. In some ways it actually very similar to Deser Eagle...
Maybe the different muzzle devices are for fitting the respective rifle grenades?
Probably not. Where is the gas check?
That thing looks sick as hell
wait so tavors in the hands of the Russian paratroopers during the campaign of mw2 wasn't as unrealistic as I thought?
These rifles have been pretty rare to see as the war goes on, but the most I saw at once was actually a warehouse of these captured by the Russians very early in the war, so they actually have a fair amount of them probably.
At the rate at which they are pulling out things from storage, the RPD may not be all that far fetched either
@@Pointman138 do you know why they were in a warehouse to be captured? Nobody ever uses these. These are terrible. No idea how they perform, but they are terrible to manage as they break constantly without even doing anything. Mags fall out by themselves jsut because they feel like it. If russians ever use them - I will laugh my ass off, as that would mean it was sabotage to give them these.
@@TheKarabanera if I’m remembering correctly it was a warehouse/armory that was in an area overrun very very early by the Russians at the start of the war, I’m talking like first day or two
2:29 no. please tell me that that's not the only rear aperture lol
The mold ejection pin marks near the serial number and other labeling look quire different between the Ukranian and Israeli examples
If I had a dollar for every time there has been a classified document shared on War Thunder forums, I'd have $13. Which isn't a lot of money, but it's weird it has happened THIRTEEN TIMES!
We’ll get ready to make $14! 😂
Awesome. Now do the Malyuk.
For future posterity in the off-chance someone comes across this and somehow doesn't know; the 'fairly obvious' reason information is hard to find on the weapon is because Russia is currently in the middle of sucking at invading Ukraine so getting information there is pretty low priority compared to actually trying to push the Russians out of their sovereign territory.
Such a great looking rifle!
If I remember correctly didn’t a bunch get destroyed or captured or at least briefly captured when hostomel was initially captured by the VDV. I know Ukraine got it back under control soon after, but I remember seeing pics of a VDV dude next to crates of Fort 221’s.
Why is it forgotten?
It is still in use or I'm wrong?
Any way Ian could convince Fort to buy the old FAMAS tooling?
looks pretty nice
Very interesting presentation, especially given Israel's ambivalence/ambiguity about the conflict.
As an Israeli, I can tell you that as a people, there's no ambivalence nor ambiguity.
We're all for Ukraine. Ukraine is a western style nation with democracy and human rights, while Russia is in bed with Iran, which literally wants to kill us all.
Politicians were scared to say it too loudly, because there's a large Russian presence in Syria just to our north, but this was a mistake.
i think answer simplest than you think, i'm sure that kind of selling up pre manufactured plastic molds by Tavor, or something dumb like tavor sending cad drawing and then maker won't (can't) make any change in it, then make decision make metal inserts
I don't think Ian will leave the place of his own volition. They'll have to kick him out, and even then he'll try and sneak back in.