***** I've been great and there will be more how to make videos coming in the future. I'm intending to make a new kite shield and will film the whole thing so keep an eye out.
I am Shad Could you possibly talk about backshields. I'm a spearman(two-handed spear) in a Norman battle re-enactment and i wear a kite shield on my back it protects my from ambush from behind and actually blocks a few blows from the side. But is this historically accurated and if so was it widespread
urbanmyths95 Ooh, good question. It certainly sounds effective from a simple practical assessment but I haven't read or heard anything to confirm the historical viability thus far, except for horseback as the kite was slung over the back in retreat.
+urbanmyths95 Do you mean the pavise shield? Crossbowmen would strap it on their back to protect themselves when reloading their crossbows, by turning around completely.
I was skeptical at first, but great video, you convinced me. I actually always thought the kite shield was more of a cav shield around the time of the Norman invasion. Never realized it was so useful for infantry.
These are excellent discussions, but the emphasis on how you use these shields (kite and round) when both you and your opponent are armed with swords seems to ignore the overwhelming importance of spears in combat. The way that the shields worked in protecting against spears, and for use along with a spear - in a shield wall or otherwise, on foot or horseback - is a bigger consideration in determining how useful these are, and how best to mount grips and handle them. Modern HEMA loves single combat with swords, but the spear is much more important for Normans, Northmen, and Anglo-Saxons than the sword in battle. On the kite shield and its mounting specifically - you got me to look again at the Bayeux tapestry, where the shield bosses and (probably) rivets for the mounting of handles and straps are prominent on their kite shields. And in a few cases the back of the shield is shown, complete with straps. It's fascinating.
Me as a Larper love to use a Kite shield. It's great for all kind of situations. i do have 3 different strap configurations on mine as well as a strap for slinging it across my back when i am walking.
I will be making one out of EVA plates, to see how it works. It seems like a great design to apply some fantasy nonsense to without sacrifing actual practicality.
I'm writing a short story about knights. Now the protagonist will be using a kite shield with a horizontal center grip. He's on foot sometimes through certain circumstances. Could a kite shield have a horizontal center grip for fighting on foot AND and a vertical strap for fighting on horseback?
I tried that. it is plausible & perform quite well. though is not as comfortable as just a single one. when you hold the grip. you feel a bit of concern that the strap will stuck while moving the shield around. when you holding the strap. the centergrip keep poking at ur chest when you held close to ur body. perhaps more curvature or add boss for the centergrip would yield better result in the end I changed my mind & just use the one that r most comfortable for me which is the horizontal centergrip
Vertical center grips do work for heaters, rounds, squares, and other shapes of shield. In your demonstration you had your elbow pop out on the side. All you need to do in that case is tuck your elbow close to your body. (I personally have a square and it works great) Also I hardly every see anyone in any combat sport utilize that high guard with you left fist level with your head. Granted it would be extremely useful if you are in formation under arrow fire, since the shield is far from you body and the shield is at the angle where the arrows are coming from. but as soon as another formation gets close you lose that lower body protection and a spear can easily slip through that large gap. very few would have the reflexes to move that shield from your high guard to a position where they are able to block any low spear thrusts. one thing you did not mention is if you are in a shield wall with other kites, there would be triangular shaped gaps at the bottom of the shield. this would be neither an advantage or disadvantage because it allow your friends' spears to slip through those gaps. but it also allows the opposing side's spears and arrows to slip through those gaps as well.
Ever thought of reversing the grip so that you have your hand at the pointy end of the shield? This could result in a more rested position by having your shield arm down by your side. And you can strike with that pointy end. You might have to shift the hand straps so that you still get a good shoulder to head coverage🤔
yep, i actually had to pause the video and rewind because it looked like his roof was falling. I thought it might have been a piece of the sound or video equipment that was falling.
Has shad already talked about the use of shields and swords within the legend of zelda? I think it would be cool for him to examine links equipment to compare it to weapons of different periods or to speculate whether or not link would have been a formidable realistic opponent.
Very interesting analysis. I just finished watching both of your videos. I'm a HEMA practitioner, and admittedly not the most experienced one, and in all my time I have seen someone use a kite shield twice, and fought someone using one once. Here's my thing though. The guy was using his kite shield just as you are showing, horizontal center grip, holding it up near the face so that the point of the shield sort of juts forward. So I got into a couple skirmishes with him, neither one of us really landed a serious hit on the other, but I was having trouble because I had a very hard time getting close enough to him to attack. So at one point I waited until he attacked, defended myself, and as he was coming back, I kicked upward at the tip of his shield. It was wrenched totally out of his hand and fell to the ground behind and to the side of him. That's the weakness of the kite shield, in my very limited experience. That big tip extends so far away from your hand that any hits at any angle other than straight forward places a massive amount of torque on your hand. I suspect a good hit from a heavy weapon to the edges of the tip would do the same and wrench it out of the users hand. I think that the kite shield IS one of the best (if not the best) when it comes to warfare. But when it comes to dueling, it has some weaknesses. I personally prefer the round shield. That being said, this all comes from ONE isolated incident. I could be totally wrong. By the way. I fought the same guy a second time that same day. I tried the same trick. He was holding the shield more tightly that time and instead of it being wrenched out of his hand, it smashed the shield into his face. Also not ideal.
Kyle Flanagan Wow man, thanks for sharing this. VERY insightful. It does seem that the extending point poses a weakness. I wonder if horizontal straps would work better?
this will make you glad: my larp group has around 20 kite shields and uses them to great efficiency on the battlefield, ours are a bit smaller then yours i think but not mutch
After binge watching all of your videos in the last couple years, I have Ive finally made it to early release material... before the... machicolatiooooooons
It needs to be said....and Yes I am aware of the difference, and that my comparison is a bit unfair.... Bucklers are used extended from the body. Just to be more clear/complete concerning shields and their use.
Absolutely true, but Bucklers can be considered weapons almost, and most of their protection value stems from the distance to your body, thus the angle they can cover becoming larger. You are totally right though in that shields can be used extended away from the body.
Great Video Shad. It would be amazing to see more spear and shield videos and what advantages different shield have with the spear. We love your videos here at Young Titans.
You know I always mixed up kite shields and heater shields before, I got out of that habit but never really liked the kite sheild. Your arguments have changed my mind, the kite shield was awsome! Kite shields are the perfect compromise between heaters, and towe-....uhhh scutums As bastard swords are to arming swords and long swords, so are kite sheilds to heater shields and Scutums IT MAKES SENSE!
I've been training centre grip kite shield for about a month..My muscles and technique are trained for viking shield.I prefer holding the kite shield the other way, so I can strike with the point - I centered my grip vertically for it to work, though.I have found it excellent.
Vertical center grips work just fine on smaller shields. You can bring a small shield in close without extending your elbow out. But you don't usually bring them in close. Generally speaking the smaller the shield the further away you hold it from your body. Both because they usually weigh less the smaller they get (so it's easier to hold them out) and it increases their effective area of defense. For instance bucklers are some of the smallest shields and they are virtually all center grip.
Hey Shad, love your videos. Someone might have mentioned this already but ai do have a note as to you explanation of why mounted combat was less prevalent in earlier periods. First of all, it wasn’t like it didn’t exist. There are loads of examples of cavalry forces going back to biblical times. I am sure you are aware of this, just pointing it out. Second, and more importantly, one of the big reasons for mounted combat becoming more prevalent was the invention of the stirrup. The stirrup allows for easier mounting and more solid seating on a horse as well as allowing someone to basically stand in the saddle and put their full weight down into a blow or behind a lance. It revolutionized mounted combat. It was invented in China in the first few centuries AD but didn’t really spread to Europe until around the 800s. It would have been around during the Viking heyday but probably not standard. The Vikings didn’t raid with horses and most of their victims didn’t have them in large numbers either. So, though the breeding of horses would definitely have played a part in the adoption of mounted shields, the stirrup was just as important and helped to kick off the importance of mounted combat, and the breeding of mounts for that purpose.
The one thing I find... annoying about popular opinion concerning shields is the notion that shields would be mainly defensive.. A shield is a perfectly valid weapon and you are at a clear disadvantage if you neglect using it as such.
ay, oz; i saw one, supposedly historical, depiction of a kite shield, seemingly WAY too 'early' , 600s frankish heavy infantry; interesting points: ** was a wraparound (l20degrees?); ** had approx l'' iron straps running diagonally top to bottom, about 2'' apart, criss-crossing, 'covering' entire face; ** heavy iron rim riveted all around shield-rim; ** bottom was strapped AROUND the bearers' ankle, really; ** wearer had heavy scale armor to knees; ** norman type helmet with, i think, 4 heavy iron straps down from tip, all 4 sides; ** that was a frigging walking tank, unlikely to be historically based, but somebody was thinking like you on this
10:43 that stance strikes me as a huge misstep. Disclaimer I have never spared with a skjoldir but what strikes me as a mistake was that his leading leg was extended past the shield while the skjoldir blocked his view of it, if course that was the point he was trying to make but surley their was a diffrent stance to minimize that flaw, no? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I feel as though a diagonal grip on a kite shield would be the best, as it would allow you to adjust your shield to cover either side of your legs, while still holding it in a normal, reasonable position that does not risk a sprained wrist or dislocated arm.
The first recording of cataphracts seems to be about 500BC, which is later than for example Roman cavalry began (about the same time as Rome began, about 750 BC, although early as that is a bit sketchy, cavalry definitely was around about 500BC). However, there are sources of Assyrian cavalry going back to as early as 865BC. Only after selective breeding cavalry seems to have become a thing basically everywhere in the world. Chariots, however, go back as far 2000BC. Shad here is talking about mainly Egyptian and early greek periods when the chariot was very much a thing, while cavalry wasn't. "Cataphract cavalry needed immensely strong and endurant horses, and without selectively breeding horses for muscular strength and hardiness, they would have surely not been able to bear the immense loads of armor and a rider during the strain of battle." - Perevalov, S. M. (translated by M. E. Sharpe) (Spring 2002). "The Sarmatian Lance and the Sarmatian Horse-Riding Posture". Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia
A larger/longer shield is well suited for less well skilled/trained infantry. In the Viking era in England, from Alfred the Great, the Anglo-Saxon army, the 'fyrd', was constituted of a rotated conscripted militia, not a standing army of permanent professional soldiers.
p.s. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, AD893: ''the king divided his army into two, so that always half of its men were at home, half on service, apart from the men who guarded the boroughs''.
This thesis and demonstration lends itself to a duel, but when on the battle field or against multiple opponents or an opponent that has a mobility edge it's a hindrance. At 11:20 when you are hiding your head (eyes) from the attacker, what are we to expect from the attacker? That they will not take advantage of you being blind to them? And its very important to note its 'them'. This shield has value in group tactics, when you are a pivot point with another ally against other foes. Also, you really need to suit up, get your sword and scabbard fixed, strap that shield on, and then fall forward or worse be on your heels. Recovery with a large strapped shield is a mess. If you use the shield more in practice, I think you will see it as a very situation shield. The king moniker seems odd at that point.
What are your thoughts on the Greek hoplon/aspis Shad? It's obviously not a medieval period design, but I've always thought that it's one of the best shield designs. I really like the fact that some of them have a thin bronze rim around the edge to make it even more effective as an offensive tool.
I always thought that when it came to shields, the Aspis, the very large round shield used by the Spartans, as well as other ancient greeks, was the best design. If you look at them, they're much large as well as being curved as opposed to the viking one, which was generally flat. In addition, an Aspis was traditionally made with layers of metal instead of just wood, which although more expensive and requiring a higher degree of skill in the craftsman to create properly, basically meant that it was impervious to pretty much any attack used against it. I would be interested to see a comparison between the kite shield and the Aspis, which due to it generally being much larger than other round shields, I would think would be able to achieve all the things a kite shield can do because of that.
I think it is an inferior design due to the lack of Downwards extention AND Aspis is usually the strapped shield. Not as good of a formation shield, which it's purpose mainly was; Norman/Saxonic shield wal was quite more effective due shield design Or maybe due to a completely different warfare and lack of 11-feet spears
Hey shad, if you are ever in britain, see if you can get to a historia normannis show, we use kite shields as our primary shield type with only the scottish and welsh groups using round shields
It's because of this video that my next D&D character is using a kite shield. Sure, since it's an RPG there's no actual difference to stats, but it's the principal of the thing!
wouldn't the point provide good leverage for the enemy? 12:01 Here, you could just push the point to the left with your offhand and then strike/stab at the exposed left flank. The shield would then block your vision and weapon from that side.
You didn't mention if you could use the lower part of the shield to parry attacks aimed in that direction, or use the lower end to manipulate enemy weapons - though maybe, you couldn't do parries and binds as well as with a round shield (less versatility, as you said).
You should put more mention to it's disadvantages. Added weight is a huge factor since it makes it harder to protect both sides when your opponent attempts to go around the shield.
If I could form a Byzantine era early, gold, silver and fall eras combo, I would have their version of the kite shield in use. By the way, could you discuss the difference between European and Byzantine kite shield types?
One point, I don't know whether I made it once or not, is that strapped shield not only does distribute weight better (helping against powerfull weapons and against general fatigue) it also forces the shield closer to the body, disencouraging dueling behaviour in a battle and incentivize staying in formation. On another note: I believe center grip would work on smaller shields if one would employ tham like larger bucklers.
I do agree that the kite shield is if not THE so at least one of the best shield designs for use on foot. "The only disadvantage compared to the round shield is that you can't attack below it." But what about long range attacks? The round shield could be (and was, infrequently as an emergency measure) used as a thrown weapon to knock enemies down at ranges extending beyond 10m. I've never read any accounts about kite shields being used that way. "More blows will glance off a curved surface." This is wrong. With a curved surface there's an entire sector that is "head on" while for a flat surface it's just one angle.
Olle P - The correct method for a ranged attack with a kite shield is to attach a length of cordage to the handle. When the breeze kicks up, release the shield and fly it toward the enemy.
What makes you think strapping was an only configuration method? The shield could be rigged for several configurations depending on the situation, in-coming arrow volleys, on horse back, close in fighting. The old drawings would only show the tapping in use and not bother to show other un-used capability.
I really enjoy your videos, including this one. I do take issue with your characterization of horses though. While it is true that they were bred to be larger during the medieval era, for both martial and economic purposes, it is inaccurate to say that prior to this time horses were too small to be ridden. Even if you meant to say they were too small to be ridden into battle, or ridden as heavy cavalry, you would be incorrect. In the broadest sense, horses were ridden before the medieval era by cultures too numerous to mention (Scythians, Macedonians, etc, etc). Even if being more specific and focusing on heavy cavalry, what about the Parthian cataphracts? Very heavy cavalry, even by medieval standards. From my understanding, war chariots were out of style by the early/mid bronze age (early Egyptians and Hittites used them). One major invention that allowed for heavy cavalry wasn't the increased size of horses, but the use of stirrups, as introduced by central Asian peoples. Anyway, I have to sleep now!
I can't tell if your kite shield is very curved or not, but most of the ones I've seen used are. This makes them less useful for skaldborg (shield wall) as is commonly used by Viking-era reenactors (of which I am one). The grips you have on your shield are clearly placed for 1 v 1 combat, not massed ranks. Good for HEMA (which is mostly 1 v 1), but not as useful for line combat.
Your suggestion that a Kite works well in a shield wall doesn't take into account physical pressure on the shield wall. Flat shields will help absorb pressure, rounded shields slide off each other and don't interlock well at all.
While I did agree with almost every single point of Part 1 (except your shield is too wide), with all due respect, I think you got it wrong with that horizontal grip. Let me explain. The archetype of the large (infantry) shield is the roman scutum. It's massive, it's heavy, it covers the bearer from ankle to shoulder, and that's the shield the roman army conquered the world with (after they had abandonned the round clipeus and phalanx tactics). The scutum does have a horizontal center grip (cf. scuti from Dura Europos and El Fayum). That may seem paradoxal, but that's exactly why it could not work with the kite shield. The scutum works because it's held relatively low, and relatively close to the body. The ennemy facing you has to either jump to reach you over the shield, or manoeuver around the shield to strike you on the sides, There is no way he can reach your from underneath, or lift your shield. Keeping it low is the key to survival. The scutum has an horizontal symetry axis, and that's precisely were the grip is implanted, exactly at the center of gravity, so the shield goes nowhere because of his own weight. That's also the perfect length so that your hanging arm, holdig the grip fingernails towards you (so very economical muscularly), place the shield exactly at the right height (covering from ankle to shoulder, approximately). Now if you were to place an horizontal center grip so that this whole system works (hanging arm, ankle to foot), the grip would be way under the center of gravity, and the shield would always want to tilt and move around because of it's own weight. Using an horizontal centergrip, if you want to make the shield stable, you have to place the handle like you did, and very close to the center of gravity. But now the grip is too high to allow for the hanging arm stance to work (your arm isn't hanging at all). To have a "comfortable" stance, you end up using the "upper" round shield stance. But while it works with the round shield, it doesn't with the kite shield, because that protruding tip is just a perfect target for every kind of blow I can imagine (as your ennemy). This tip becomes a formidable lever for me to open your ward, disarm you of your shield, or even break your hand or arm if you're unlucky. It's so far from you it doesn't protects you against anything. I can easily strike from below and lift your shield, or from the sides and twist your arm. That lever you're offering me helps me defeating you. And that why every single kite shield of the Bayeux tapestry has straps arranged in a square, plus often a shoulder/neck strap. That way you can use the kite shield as it is supposed to: close to your body, covering from ankle to shoulder. You can either put it in front of you, like a scutum, as a wall to hide behind, but you can also adopt a more dynamic stance, with the shield slightly sideway, covering your front and left side, leaving your right side more open for taking opportunities and delivering a quick attack. The straps arranged in square allows for two possibilities, but the most likely is having your forearm horizontally through the first strap, gripping the second strap in your hand, or completly pass your forearme throught the straps if you're on horseback. Just study the Bayeux tapestry to have a pretty comprehensive detail on the various ways to hold the shield in different circumstances. www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost11/Bayeux/bay_tama.html Sorry for the long post, but I find your video quite interresting, and I want to make criticism I hope to be constructive. I know I may sound a bit harsh in my criticism, but that's because I'm quite opinionated, and because of the medium (YT comment) I have to draw in somewhat bold lines to make my point. Feel free to notice anything you think is wrong, and maybe we could start a constructive discussion on a friendlier tone and pace. Whatever our respective opinions and possible disagreements, keep up the good work Shad!
MadNumForce Hey man, I love constructive criticism and I'm flattered you found my video interesting enough to share your thoughts with me. I haven't done too much research into the scutum and the things you've shared are really interesting. I have to disagree with you about the weakness in the pointed end of the shield in an upper stance. As I see it, though I freely admit I could be wrong, for an opponent to try and take advantage of the possible lever it provides, they would need to make themselves considerable open in the process which means to me this is an advantage, not a disadvantage. The lever point, the bottom of the kite shield, sits at my waist and thus to push it enough to open my guard they would have to push it down near my feet or shins, meaning they would be either lowering their shield or weapon to do so and have to bend over, leaving themselves very vulnerable. Trying to lift the shield from under would be more effective in my estimate but still bears some dangerous opportunities to exploit. I think in the end we would need to test these theories in practice, which I most certainly intend to do, there's just not many people practicing Hema in country Australia. Sigh. Thanks for your thoughts sir!
Nisean horse existed 7th centuary BC and was strong enough for armourded riders. 1600 years before the kiteshield. And if thats not enough, Cataphracts, armoured rider and armoured horse, existed from 4th centuary bc. 1300 years before the kiteshield. Besides, a kiteshield is clumsy on horseback since you can not easily move it from one side to the other. I know there is artwork of it thought. Sticking the shield out without being able to shieldpunch in the direction that is pushing out is not "keeping at bay", it is allowing ones opponent to manipulate ones shield. In a skjoldur, the part of the body in contact with the shield is the shield boss. Made of iron. Allowing for a thinner shield. Yes, arrows and javelins might penetrate the shield but if you keep it at some distance from your body they have to pass clean through to hurt you. Much more common is that just the point or part of the point pass through. Why no shield boss on the kiteshield? Does that not mean that the entire shield must be heavier? Also, formationfighting, cavalry hit and run tactics (as the kite-shielded cavalry at hastings) and single combat are very very different. You do not touch upon the formation-single difference. You do not discuss armour at all. When the kiteshield came into use warriors were much better armoured than when the skjoldur came into use. This probably played a huge part of changing shield use. It seems to me that a kiteshield will be much much slower and clumsier as a centerheld shield. Since its asymetrical. Your skjoldur looks bigger than historical skjoldurs. I know there are huge examples but the majority were smaller. The kiteshield looks enormous and very light for that size. Does it have stopping power?
Going in order, yes, cavalry has existed for millennia, and besides, people were smaller back then anyways (it's the one thing that sort of irks me about his videos- he never seems to directly address this). There was usually a longer strap for the shield to hang from (i.e. it wasn't there to secure to someone's arm), and soldiers on horseback would have the shield on their own backs, helping to protect them. When needed, they would then shrug the shield into position, grabbing a handle or strap to hold on to once there. Sticking a shield out (by which I understand you mean holding out) can still keep an opponent at bay. Kite shields can come with bosses, and you can strengthen a shield without using a boss; you can also use different materials when manufacturing a shield, sometimes depending on the intended role(s). The Normans didn't really use hit-and-run tactics at Hastings, but rather false/feigned retreats. Some of the English infantry also used kite-shaped shields. I will agree he could have gone on, but he did touch on kite shields in a formation, in reference to a shield wall. The type of armor used when the skjoldur came into use was still prevalent when kite shields were used. Armor as a whole did change, but this is because of the use of smaller shields (compared to a kite shield, in this context, something like a round or heater shield). Smaller shields meant less protection, or rather, protection that needed to be made up for by armor. Kite shields (like he mentioned) can be center held, though only a horizontal center grip would really be viable for this; you could use a vertical one, however, you would lose some of the protection offered by the shield. Training would also alleviate any problems one may initially have with it as far as slowness if clumsiness is concerned; I would think that what the shield is made out of, and how the grips and/or straps are arranged, would have more of an effect on how fast and/or easily one could handle it. He has stated those are models; with that said, skjoldurs were pretty big, at least when compared to some of its contemporary rounded counterparts.Kite shields were big as well, as they were meant to give more protection (which means lengthening the shield) to the wielder.
The answer to not get hit in the leg is wearing some solid plate armor where the opening presents itself. Mainly on the front of the lower offhand-leg. That doesn't mean that the Kite shield isn't super good tho.
Viking and spartan HEMA fighting involves a lot of offensive moves with the shield could even say it is the primary weapon. With a shield that long does that change up the striking with the shield?
body mechanics: diagonal grips were the most common because it puts less weight on your shoulder while allowing a full range of motion. This is true not just for Europe but across all cultures from around the world. And why? Because we're all humans possessing the same body mechanics
You say that centre grip shields are better on foot but in my experience I have found that I prefer strap shields, just my personal preference but I have found that you can fight for longer and protect yourself better because you don't get as tired by holding a shield out in front of you. I have also found that when using a strap shield you can do a sideways punch sort of thing with a lot more power because it's easier to put all you're weight behind it, just my experience.
todd ballantine Thanks for sharing your thoughts man! You wouldn't be the only person with the preference for strapped shields either and that's what this might really boil down to, personal preference. For myself, I just love the versatility of center gripped.
todd ballantine Actually, a centergrip can be almost as comfortable for long period of time as straps if the shield is large enough, and the grip is horizontal. Like the scutum. When you hold it close to your body (and there is no other way to hold it than close to your body: the thing weigh a massive 9-10kg, it's basically a wall you hide behind, and that's what scutati, ie Murmillo (said to come from "murus", wall in latin) and Secutor, mostly did), it just hangs from your shoulder with few muscle tension in your arm. You can even rest it on top of your foot if you're really tired. The round "Viking" shield, used like Roland Warzecha shows in one video, is obviously quite tiring, and you always need to go back and forth to protect your legs, which makes it worst.
I have a curiosity question regarding grip placement: What if you placed the grip lower down so that holding the kite at rest basically was holding it at ready, with the point still toward the ground? You could brace the top against your shoulder if necessary. I have no experience with any kind of fighting, though, so I don't know if that would actually work.
So this is years late but I’m writing a book and I’m think that the protagonist will have a kite shield but I don’t know what other weapon the protagonist should have on horseback and ground, such as a specific type of sword, spear, etc.
I don't know if anyone has asked this but, why is the bottom tear drop shaped? I understand the curve on the top, but why not have something like an oval or even like a scutum on the bottom. Is there a specific reason for the bottom comming to a point and not being rounded?
I just wanted to point out that saying that the curve of the kite shield is an "innovation" is not exactly true. It is one if you compare it to the Viking shield, but there are earlier examples of shields that were curved, like the Roman scutum or the Greek aspis/hoplon (which was kind of dome shaped).
But Shad....the scutum... I mean, the power you can get behind that thing on a charge, the sheer size of it, the ability to form testudo against missiles, the tapering reinforced edges... (Punic Wars Roman kit fanboy is fanboying _hard_ )
I thought the main reason for the more central role of cavalry during the medieval period was the widespread adoption of the stirrup, allowing "impact" heavy cavalry with the lance.
Benjamin O'Donnell - You don't need stirrups to have effective shock cavalry, the ancient roman saddle ( it has 4 horns , look it up) works about as well . But otherwise you're mostly right
If it wasn't curved, would it not simply mean it could extend out to the sides more without adding weight? Or is the weight easier to handle when it's distributed closer to the arm? Well, I know it is, but is it noticable with such a small curve? I don't think that's too dignificant though, I think the deflecting property is probably most important.
The curve came before the kite shape. The curve deflects incoming force alot better and does so passively. A flat shield needs to be used actively to absorb incoming force if it is not to tilt. But is a more effective offensive weapon. Maybe the curve came from more formationfighting and more missiles? While the flat shield is more skirmishing and single combat? In the germanic world single combat was part of the judicial system at least until the 16th centuary.
Martin Andersson Thx for the response, I was actually thinking about how ;little you would probably have to maneuver the shield to deflect even heavy impact strikes.. I think it also has a few weaknesses though, but I'm too lazy to write down my thoughts haha
DermoNONE Yeah that was what I meant, I realize it probably be harder to wield if it would extend further. But I think there's still interesting trade-offs.. Like I said in my other comment, too much to type :P Thx for the response
As far as horses unable to carry a man from bronze age art i call bull but indeed around 900 ad we get a novel development the sturip or iron was first introduced from eastern Europe and asia
what if you widen the bottom tip to make it more of an oval shield? is that unnecessary weight and bulk for not much protection? i feel like the leg needs more than just a narrow tip
Do you think it's possible that the long bottom half has developed as an addition to the round shield, in order to move the point of balance down the shield, so that the handle can be positioned lower down on the shield than it would be on a round shield of the same "diameter". As well as the increased leg protection?
Almus Quotch You actually raise a very good point about the center of balance in regard to Kite Shields, one that I go into in a video I've filmed but haven't uploaded yet. It'll be coming in the next few weeks. The different point of balance on the kite removes the requirement for a shield boss, as to why that's the case, well you'll have to wait for the video ^_^
Would a cavalry kite shield not be smaller so more mobility for the user as generally cavalry men had the money to afford better armour due to being able to afford a horse so then the standard footmen would need the larger shield due to having less armour?
Seeing as the horse is holding your weight, I don't think that would be necessary. Plus, when it's that big, you have more protection for your horse, which is your biggest weakness.
Drewster i think lindybeige has a video you may want to look at. Cannot link it to you as I am on my phone right now. I think its on the shape of axes. The round edge allows any angle strike to hit the opponent straight on. I'm not sure about Skyrim style shield bashes but am a little concerned about the bottom of the kite shield acting as leverage. I need to find an opponent with a kite shield before I can fully explore this idea though.
Yet more about the Kite shield, this time in regard to its function! I'd love to know what you think.
***** I've been great and there will be more how to make videos coming in the future. I'm intending to make a new kite shield and will film the whole thing so keep an eye out.
I am Shad Could you possibly talk about backshields. I'm a spearman(two-handed spear) in a Norman battle re-enactment and i wear a kite shield on my back it protects my from ambush from behind and actually blocks a few blows from the side. But is this historically accurated and if so was it widespread
urbanmyths95 Ooh, good question. It certainly sounds effective from a simple practical assessment but I haven't read or heard anything to confirm the historical viability thus far, except for horseback as the kite was slung over the back in retreat.
+urbanmyths95 Do you mean the pavise shield? Crossbowmen would strap it on their back to protect themselves when reloading their crossbows, by turning around completely.
ArkBlanc
nope i'm talking about a kite shield that's strapped to the back then draped aross the arm for polearm users
Now I see why crusaders and the teutonic order used kite shields a lot.
This channel deserves way more people... very imformative
I was skeptical at first, but great video, you convinced me. I actually always thought the kite shield was more of a cav shield around the time of the Norman invasion. Never realized it was so useful for infantry.
These are excellent discussions, but the emphasis on how you use these shields (kite and round) when both you and your opponent are armed with swords seems to ignore the overwhelming importance of spears in combat. The way that the shields worked in protecting against spears, and for use along with a spear - in a shield wall or otherwise, on foot or horseback - is a bigger consideration in determining how useful these are, and how best to mount grips and handle them. Modern HEMA loves single combat with swords, but the spear is much more important for Normans, Northmen, and Anglo-Saxons than the sword in battle. On the kite shield and its mounting specifically - you got me to look again at the Bayeux tapestry, where the shield bosses and (probably) rivets for the mounting of handles and straps are prominent on their kite shields. And in a few cases the back of the shield is shown, complete with straps. It's fascinating.
I think kite shields where never center grip as he claims....
I love these medieval combat equipment videos.
Me as a Larper love to use a Kite shield. It's great for all kind of situations. i do have 3 different strap configurations on mine as well as a strap for slinging it across my back when i am walking.
I will be making one out of EVA plates, to see how it works. It seems like a great design to apply some fantasy nonsense to without sacrifing actual practicality.
I'm writing a short story about knights. Now the protagonist will be using a kite shield with a horizontal center grip. He's on foot sometimes through certain circumstances. Could a kite shield have a horizontal center grip for fighting on foot AND and a vertical strap for fighting on horseback?
Of course ^_^
And a diagonal shoulder strap too
Cool, thanks
I tried that. it is plausible & perform quite well. though is not as comfortable as just a single one.
when you hold the grip. you feel a bit of concern that the strap will stuck while moving the shield around.
when you holding the strap. the centergrip keep poking at ur chest when you held close to ur body.
perhaps more curvature or add boss for the centergrip would yield better result in the end I changed my mind & just use the one that r most comfortable for me which is the horizontal centergrip
So, how did that story turned out?
Hows the story doing?
"The KING of shields" love it. Always liked the kite
Keep the videos coming : )
VDV90SHakal Absolutely! the next one will be up soon.
Scutum is still more fun to fight with. People never seem to be able to deal with a shield shoved in their face for some reason.
Vertical center grips do work for heaters, rounds, squares, and other shapes of shield. In your demonstration you had your elbow pop out on the side. All you need to do in that case is tuck your elbow close to your body. (I personally have a square and it works great)
Also I hardly every see anyone in any combat sport utilize that high guard with you left fist level with your head. Granted it would be extremely useful if you are in formation under arrow fire, since the shield is far from you body and the shield is at the angle where the arrows are coming from. but as soon as another formation gets close you lose that lower body protection and a spear can easily slip through that large gap. very few would have the reflexes to move that shield from your high guard to a position where they are able to block any low spear thrusts.
one thing you did not mention is if you are in a shield wall with other kites, there would be triangular shaped gaps at the bottom of the shield. this would be neither an advantage or disadvantage because it allow your friends' spears to slip through those gaps. but it also allows the opposing side's spears and arrows to slip through those gaps as well.
If i ever start larping your videos will have given me a LOT of useful info.
Ever thought of reversing the grip so that you have your hand at the pointy end of the shield? This could result in a more rested position by having your shield arm down by your side. And you can strike with that pointy end. You might have to shift the hand straps so that you still get a good shoulder to head coverage🤔
anyone else see the cord drop down at 11:50?
Aye!
And 12:00 then his camera sways
yep, i actually had to pause the video and rewind because it looked like his roof was falling. I thought it might have been a piece of the sound or video equipment that was falling.
thought it was a bird until I went back to investigate
Yes, I thought some shield is falling down
I had to replay that for several times. For some reason I find it really funny XD
Has shad already talked about the use of shields and swords within the legend of zelda? I think it would be cool for him to examine links equipment to compare it to weapons of different periods or to speculate whether or not link would have been a formidable realistic opponent.
Very interesting analysis. I just finished watching both of your videos. I'm a HEMA practitioner, and admittedly not the most experienced one, and in all my time I have seen someone use a kite shield twice, and fought someone using one once.
Here's my thing though. The guy was using his kite shield just as you are showing, horizontal center grip, holding it up near the face so that the point of the shield sort of juts forward. So I got into a couple skirmishes with him, neither one of us really landed a serious hit on the other, but I was having trouble because I had a very hard time getting close enough to him to attack. So at one point I waited until he attacked, defended myself, and as he was coming back, I kicked upward at the tip of his shield. It was wrenched totally out of his hand and fell to the ground behind and to the side of him.
That's the weakness of the kite shield, in my very limited experience. That big tip extends so far away from your hand that any hits at any angle other than straight forward places a massive amount of torque on your hand. I suspect a good hit from a heavy weapon to the edges of the tip would do the same and wrench it out of the users hand.
I think that the kite shield IS one of the best (if not the best) when it comes to warfare. But when it comes to dueling, it has some weaknesses. I personally prefer the round shield. That being said, this all comes from ONE isolated incident. I could be totally wrong.
By the way. I fought the same guy a second time that same day. I tried the same trick. He was holding the shield more tightly that time and instead of it being wrenched out of his hand, it smashed the shield into his face. Also not ideal.
Kyle Flanagan Wow man, thanks for sharing this. VERY insightful. It does seem that the extending point poses a weakness. I wonder if horizontal straps would work better?
this will make you glad:
my larp group has around 20 kite shields and uses them to great efficiency on the battlefield, ours are a bit smaller then yours i think but not mutch
It has always been my favorite shield as well
11:49 the cable extender slyly attacks from above!
Prooving the point that the shield needs to be held high enough to cover your head.
Nice to see I wasn't the only one to notice that.
After binge watching all of your videos in the last couple years, I have Ive finally made it to early release material... before the... machicolatiooooooons
It needs to be said....and Yes I am aware of the difference, and that my comparison is a bit unfair....
Bucklers are used extended from the body.
Just to be more clear/complete concerning shields and their use.
Absolutely true, but Bucklers can be considered weapons almost, and most of their protection value stems from the distance to your body, thus the angle they can cover becoming larger. You are totally right though in that shields can be used extended away from the body.
Great Video Shad. It would be amazing to see more spear and shield videos and what advantages different shield have with the spear. We love your videos here at Young Titans.
You know I always mixed up kite shields and heater shields before, I got out of that habit but never really liked the kite sheild. Your arguments have changed my mind, the kite shield was awsome! Kite shields are the perfect compromise between heaters, and towe-....uhhh scutums
As bastard swords are to arming swords and long swords, so are kite sheilds to heater shields and Scutums IT MAKES SENSE!
+1Forge 2RuleThemAll (1Forge2RuleThemAll) That it does! Thanks for letting me know mate.
You convinced me, I'll get a kite shield for larp. I was thinking about buckler, but kite shield is just too awesome and functional to overlook.
Thanks for the info, here's some full engagement.
I've been training centre grip kite shield for about a month..My muscles and technique are trained for viking shield.I prefer holding the kite shield the other way, so I can strike with the point - I centered my grip vertically for it to work, though.I have found it excellent.
Vertical center grips work just fine on smaller shields. You can bring a small shield in close without extending your elbow out. But you don't usually bring them in close. Generally speaking the smaller the shield the further away you hold it from your body. Both because they usually weigh less the smaller they get (so it's easier to hold them out) and it increases their effective area of defense. For instance bucklers are some of the smallest shields and they are virtually all center grip.
Hey Shad, love your videos. Someone might have mentioned this already but ai do have a note as to you explanation of why mounted combat was less prevalent in earlier periods.
First of all, it wasn’t like it didn’t exist. There are loads of examples of cavalry forces going back to biblical times. I am sure you are aware of this, just pointing it out.
Second, and more importantly, one of the big reasons for mounted combat becoming more prevalent was the invention of the stirrup. The stirrup allows for easier mounting and more solid seating on a horse as well as allowing someone to basically stand in the saddle and put their full weight down into a blow or behind a lance. It revolutionized mounted combat. It was invented in China in the first few centuries AD but didn’t really spread to Europe until around the 800s. It would have been around during the Viking heyday but probably not standard. The Vikings didn’t raid with horses and most of their victims didn’t have them in large numbers either. So, though the breeding of horses would definitely have played a part in the adoption of mounted shields, the stirrup was just as important and helped to kick off the importance of mounted combat, and the breeding of mounts for that purpose.
Would be handy having a centre grip kite, with straps added for added function/ease of carry when not actually in battle.
you talked center grip position on a couple shields, but what about a round shield? do you prefer vertical or horizontal?
nikolai60 it's round
Everyone knows diagonal is best on a round shield
What???
YOU HAVE OPEN MY EYES ON THE KITE SHIELD !!!
The one thing I find... annoying about popular opinion concerning shields is the notion that shields would be mainly defensive.. A shield is a perfectly valid weapon and you are at a clear disadvantage if you neglect using it as such.
I think the Scutum would be the best pick for a shield as an infantry. Excellent protection and with a spear would make you one hell of an opponent.
After doing a lot of research last year on finding the best shield to suite my fantasy army, I deduced the kite shield to be the best choice.
ay, oz; i saw one, supposedly historical, depiction of a kite shield, seemingly WAY too 'early' , 600s frankish heavy infantry; interesting points: ** was a wraparound (l20degrees?); ** had approx l'' iron straps running diagonally top to bottom, about 2'' apart, criss-crossing, 'covering' entire face; ** heavy iron rim riveted all around shield-rim; ** bottom was strapped AROUND the bearers' ankle, really; ** wearer had heavy scale armor to knees; ** norman type helmet with, i think, 4 heavy iron straps down from tip, all 4 sides; ** that was a frigging walking tank, unlikely to be historically based, but somebody was thinking like you on this
10:43 that stance strikes me as a huge misstep. Disclaimer I have never spared with a skjoldir but what strikes me as a mistake was that his leading leg was extended past the shield while the skjoldir blocked his view of it, if course that was the point he was trying to make but surley their was a diffrent stance to minimize that flaw, no?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I feel as though a diagonal grip on a kite shield would be the best, as it would allow you to adjust your shield to cover either side of your legs, while still holding it in a normal, reasonable position that does not risk a sprained wrist or dislocated arm.
There is full on horseback fighting at the renaissance fair where I live, but only from very few highly trained combatants.
1:38 The cataphract begs to differ.
The first recording of cataphracts seems to be about 500BC, which is later than for example Roman cavalry began (about the same time as Rome began, about 750 BC, although early as that is a bit sketchy, cavalry definitely was around about 500BC). However, there are sources of Assyrian cavalry going back to as early as 865BC. Only after selective breeding cavalry seems to have become a thing basically everywhere in the world. Chariots, however, go back as far 2000BC. Shad here is talking about mainly Egyptian and early greek periods when the chariot was very much a thing, while cavalry wasn't.
"Cataphract cavalry needed immensely strong and endurant horses, and without selectively breeding horses for muscular strength and hardiness, they would have surely not been able to bear the immense loads of armor and a rider during the strain of battle."
- Perevalov, S. M. (translated by M. E. Sharpe) (Spring 2002). "The Sarmatian Lance and the Sarmatian Horse-Riding Posture". Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia
A larger/longer shield is well suited for less well skilled/trained infantry. In the Viking era in England, from Alfred the Great, the Anglo-Saxon army, the 'fyrd', was constituted of a rotated conscripted militia, not a standing army of permanent professional soldiers.
p.s. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, AD893: ''the king divided his army into two, so that always half of its men were at home, half on service, apart from the men who guarded the boroughs''.
with the angle strap arrangement the shield can be used as a striking weapon and better blow deflection angle control.
This thesis and demonstration lends itself to a duel, but when on the battle field or against multiple opponents or an opponent that has a mobility edge it's a hindrance. At 11:20 when you are hiding your head (eyes) from the attacker, what are we to expect from the attacker? That they will not take advantage of you being blind to them? And its very important to note its 'them'.
This shield has value in group tactics, when you are a pivot point with another ally against other foes.
Also, you really need to suit up, get your sword and scabbard fixed, strap that shield on, and then fall forward or worse be on your heels. Recovery with a large strapped shield is a mess.
If you use the shield more in practice, I think you will see it as a very situation shield. The king moniker seems odd at that point.
What are your thoughts on the Greek hoplon/aspis Shad? It's obviously not a medieval period design, but I've always thought that it's one of the best shield designs. I really like the fact that some of them have a thin bronze rim around the edge to make it even more effective as an offensive tool.
how thick is your shield?
I always thought that when it came to shields, the Aspis, the very large round shield used by the Spartans, as well as other ancient greeks, was the best design. If you look at them, they're much large as well as being curved as opposed to the viking one, which was generally flat. In addition, an Aspis was traditionally made with layers of metal instead of just wood, which although more expensive and requiring a higher degree of skill in the craftsman to create properly, basically meant that it was impervious to pretty much any attack used against it. I would be interested to see a comparison between the kite shield and the Aspis, which due to it generally being much larger than other round shields, I would think would be able to achieve all the things a kite shield can do because of that.
I think it is an inferior design due to the lack of Downwards extention AND Aspis is usually the strapped shield. Not as good of a formation shield, which it's purpose mainly was; Norman/Saxonic shield wal was quite more effective due shield design
Or maybe due to a completely different warfare and lack of 11-feet spears
Hey shad, if you are ever in britain, see if you can get to a historia normannis show, we use kite shields as our primary shield type with only the scottish and welsh groups using round shields
It's because of this video that my next D&D character is using a kite shield. Sure, since it's an RPG there's no actual difference to stats, but it's the principal of the thing!
The King of Shields is the Energy Shield.
wouldn't the point provide good leverage for the enemy? 12:01 Here, you could just push the point to the left with your offhand and then strike/stab at the exposed left flank. The shield would then block your vision and weapon from that side.
you did over look one point. with the kite shield the bottom tip can be held at an angel on horse to protect the horses flank when turning away.
Brilliant!
You didn't mention if you could use the lower part of the shield to parry attacks aimed in that direction, or use the lower end to manipulate enemy weapons - though maybe, you couldn't do parries and binds as well as with a round shield (less versatility, as you said).
You should put more mention to it's disadvantages. Added weight is a huge factor since it makes it harder to protect both sides when your opponent attempts to go around the shield.
If I could form a Byzantine era early, gold, silver and fall eras combo, I would have their version of the kite shield in use.
By the way, could you discuss the difference between European and Byzantine kite shield types?
One point, I don't know whether I made it once or not, is that strapped shield not only does distribute weight better (helping against powerfull weapons and against general fatigue) it also forces the shield closer to the body, disencouraging dueling behaviour in a battle and incentivize staying in formation.
On another note: I believe center grip would work on smaller shields if one would employ tham like larger bucklers.
I do agree that the kite shield is if not THE so at least one of the best shield designs for use on foot. "The only disadvantage compared to the round shield is that you can't attack below it." But what about long range attacks? The round shield could be (and was, infrequently as an emergency measure) used as a thrown weapon to knock enemies down at ranges extending beyond 10m. I've never read any accounts about kite shields being used that way. "More blows will glance off a curved surface." This is wrong. With a curved surface there's an entire sector that is "head on" while for a flat surface it's just one angle.
Olle P - The correct method for a ranged attack with a kite shield is to attach a length of cordage to the handle. When the breeze kicks up, release the shield and fly it toward the enemy.
force shields are the king.
What makes you think strapping was an only configuration method? The shield could be rigged for several configurations depending on the situation, in-coming arrow volleys, on horse back, close in fighting. The old drawings would only show the tapping in use and not bother to show other un-used capability.
I really enjoy your videos, including this one. I do take issue with your characterization of horses though. While it is true that they were bred to be larger during the medieval era, for both martial and economic purposes, it is inaccurate to say that prior to this time horses were too small to be ridden. Even if you meant to say they were too small to be ridden into battle, or ridden as heavy cavalry, you would be incorrect. In the broadest sense, horses were ridden before the medieval era by cultures too numerous to mention (Scythians, Macedonians, etc, etc). Even if being more specific and focusing on heavy cavalry, what about the Parthian cataphracts? Very heavy cavalry, even by medieval standards. From my understanding, war chariots were out of style by the early/mid bronze age (early Egyptians and Hittites used them). One major invention that allowed for heavy cavalry wasn't the increased size of horses, but the use of stirrups, as introduced by central Asian peoples. Anyway, I have to sleep now!
I can't tell if your kite shield is very curved or not, but most of the ones I've seen used are. This makes them less useful for skaldborg (shield wall) as is commonly used by Viking-era reenactors (of which I am one). The grips you have on your shield are clearly placed for 1 v 1 combat, not massed ranks. Good for HEMA (which is mostly 1 v 1), but not as useful for line combat.
Your suggestion that a Kite works well in a shield wall doesn't take into account physical pressure on the shield wall. Flat shields will help absorb pressure, rounded shields slide off each other and don't interlock well at all.
And yet the Roman (who were famous for their shield walls and the Testudo formation) Scutum was curved. I wonder why...
What if an army's shields all had a hook on one side, and an eye/ring on the other? Everyone could just latch their shields together 😆
While I did agree with almost every single point of Part 1 (except your shield is too wide), with all due respect, I think you got it wrong with that horizontal grip. Let me explain.
The archetype of the large (infantry) shield is the roman scutum. It's massive, it's heavy, it covers the bearer from ankle to shoulder, and that's the shield the roman army conquered the world with (after they had abandonned the round clipeus and phalanx tactics). The scutum does have a horizontal center grip (cf. scuti from Dura Europos and El Fayum). That may seem paradoxal, but that's exactly why it could not work with the kite shield. The scutum works because it's held relatively low, and relatively close to the body. The ennemy facing you has to either jump to reach you over the shield, or manoeuver around the shield to strike you on the sides, There is no way he can reach your from underneath, or lift your shield. Keeping it low is the key to survival.
The scutum has an horizontal symetry axis, and that's precisely were the grip is implanted, exactly at the center of gravity, so the shield goes nowhere because of his own weight. That's also the perfect length so that your hanging arm, holdig the grip fingernails towards you (so very economical muscularly), place the shield exactly at the right height (covering from ankle to shoulder, approximately). Now if you were to place an horizontal center grip so that this whole system works (hanging arm, ankle to foot), the grip would be way under the center of gravity, and the shield would always want to tilt and move around because of it's own weight.
Using an horizontal centergrip, if you want to make the shield stable, you have to place the handle like you did, and very close to the center of gravity. But now the grip is too high to allow for the hanging arm stance to work (your arm isn't hanging at all). To have a "comfortable" stance, you end up using the "upper" round shield stance. But while it works with the round shield, it doesn't with the kite shield, because that protruding tip is just a perfect target for every kind of blow I can imagine (as your ennemy). This tip becomes a formidable lever for me to open your ward, disarm you of your shield, or even break your hand or arm if you're unlucky. It's so far from you it doesn't protects you against anything. I can easily strike from below and lift your shield, or from the sides and twist your arm. That lever you're offering me helps me defeating you.
And that why every single kite shield of the Bayeux tapestry has straps arranged in a square, plus often a shoulder/neck strap. That way you can use the kite shield as it is supposed to: close to your body, covering from ankle to shoulder. You can either put it in front of you, like a scutum, as a wall to hide behind, but you can also adopt a more dynamic stance, with the shield slightly sideway, covering your front and left side, leaving your right side more open for taking opportunities and delivering a quick attack. The straps arranged in square allows for two possibilities, but the most likely is having your forearm horizontally through the first strap, gripping the second strap in your hand, or completly pass your forearme throught the straps if you're on horseback. Just study the Bayeux tapestry to have a pretty comprehensive detail on the various ways to hold the shield in different circumstances.
www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost11/Bayeux/bay_tama.html
Sorry for the long post, but I find your video quite interresting, and I want to make criticism I hope to be constructive. I know I may sound a bit harsh in my criticism, but that's because I'm quite opinionated, and because of the medium (YT comment) I have to draw in somewhat bold lines to make my point. Feel free to notice anything you think is wrong, and maybe we could start a constructive discussion on a friendlier tone and pace.
Whatever our respective opinions and possible disagreements, keep up the good work Shad!
MadNumForce Hey man, I love constructive criticism and I'm flattered you found my video interesting enough to share your thoughts with me. I haven't done too much research into the scutum and the things you've shared are really interesting.
I have to disagree with you about the weakness in the pointed end of the shield in an upper stance. As I see it, though I freely admit I could be wrong, for an opponent to try and take advantage of the possible lever it provides, they would need to make themselves considerable open in the process which means to me this is an advantage, not a disadvantage. The lever point, the bottom of the kite shield, sits at my waist and thus to push it enough to open my guard they would have to push it down near my feet or shins, meaning they would be either lowering their shield or weapon to do so and have to bend over, leaving themselves very vulnerable.
Trying to lift the shield from under would be more effective in my estimate but still bears some dangerous opportunities to exploit.
I think in the end we would need to test these theories in practice, which I most certainly intend to do, there's just not many people practicing Hema in country Australia. Sigh.
Thanks for your thoughts sir!
Nisean horse existed 7th centuary BC and was strong enough for armourded riders. 1600 years before the kiteshield. And if thats not enough, Cataphracts, armoured rider and armoured horse, existed from 4th centuary bc. 1300 years before the kiteshield.
Besides, a kiteshield is clumsy on horseback since you can not easily move it from one side to the other. I know there is artwork of it thought.
Sticking the shield out without being able to shieldpunch in the direction that is pushing out is not "keeping at bay", it is allowing ones opponent to manipulate ones shield.
In a skjoldur, the part of the body in contact with the shield is the shield boss. Made of iron. Allowing for a thinner shield. Yes, arrows and javelins might penetrate the shield but if you keep it at some distance from your body they have to pass clean through to hurt you. Much more common is that just the point or part of the point pass through. Why no shield boss on the kiteshield? Does that not mean that the entire shield must be heavier?
Also, formationfighting, cavalry hit and run tactics (as the kite-shielded cavalry at hastings) and single combat are very very different. You do not touch upon the formation-single difference.
You do not discuss armour at all. When the kiteshield came into use warriors were much better armoured than when the skjoldur came into use. This probably played a huge part of changing shield use.
It seems to me that a kiteshield will be much much slower and clumsier as a centerheld shield. Since its asymetrical.
Your skjoldur looks bigger than historical skjoldurs. I know there are huge examples but the majority were smaller. The kiteshield looks enormous and very light for that size. Does it have stopping power?
Going in order, yes, cavalry has existed for millennia, and besides, people were smaller back then anyways (it's the one thing that sort of irks me about his videos- he never seems to directly address this).
There was usually a longer strap for the shield to hang from (i.e. it wasn't there to secure to someone's arm), and soldiers on horseback would have the shield on their own backs, helping to protect them. When needed, they would then shrug the shield into position, grabbing a handle or strap to hold on to once there.
Sticking a shield out (by which I understand you mean holding out) can still keep an opponent at bay.
Kite shields can come with bosses, and you can strengthen a shield without using a boss; you can also use different materials when manufacturing a shield, sometimes depending on the intended role(s).
The Normans didn't really use hit-and-run tactics at Hastings, but rather false/feigned retreats. Some of the English infantry also used kite-shaped shields. I will agree he could have gone on, but he did touch on kite shields in a formation, in reference to a shield wall.
The type of armor used when the skjoldur came into use was still prevalent when kite shields were used. Armor as a whole did change, but this is because of the use of smaller shields (compared to a kite shield, in this context, something like a round or heater shield). Smaller shields meant less protection, or rather, protection that needed to be made up for by armor.
Kite shields (like he mentioned) can be center held, though only a horizontal center grip would really be viable for this; you could use a vertical one, however, you would lose some of the protection offered by the shield. Training would also alleviate any problems one may initially have with it as far as slowness if clumsiness is concerned; I would think that what the shield is made out of, and how the grips and/or straps are arranged, would have more of an effect on how fast and/or easily one could handle it.
He has stated those are models; with that said, skjoldurs were pretty big, at least when compared to some of its contemporary rounded counterparts.Kite shields were big as well, as they were meant to give more protection (which means lengthening the shield) to the wielder.
The answer to not get hit in the leg is wearing some solid plate armor where the opening presents itself.
Mainly on the front of the lower offhand-leg. That doesn't mean that the Kite shield isn't super good tho.
Viking and spartan HEMA fighting involves a lot of offensive moves with the shield could even say it is the primary weapon. With a shield that long does that change up the striking with the shield?
body mechanics: diagonal grips were the most common because it puts less weight on your shoulder while allowing a full range of motion. This is true not just for Europe but across all cultures from around the world. And why? Because we're all humans possessing the same body mechanics
I'm finding myself distracted by the red cross of the shield. It's making me imagine defending against vampires.
The Kite-Shiled is so much cooler than the shield of the Enterprise!
Who else is here for blade and sorcery
I still think, in one on one combat, the round shield offers the better offensive qualatives.
You say that centre grip shields are better on foot but in my experience I have found that I prefer strap shields, just my personal preference but I have found that you can fight for longer and protect yourself better because you don't get as tired by holding a shield out in front of you. I have also found that when using a strap shield you can do a sideways punch sort of thing with a lot more power because it's easier to put all you're weight behind it, just my experience.
todd ballantine Thanks for sharing your thoughts man! You wouldn't be the only person with the preference for strapped shields either and that's what this might really boil down to, personal preference. For myself, I just love the versatility of center gripped.
Fair enough, I can't argue with you there. Great videos by the way
todd ballantine Actually, a centergrip can be almost as comfortable for long period of time as straps if the shield is large enough, and the grip is horizontal. Like the scutum. When you hold it close to your body (and there is no other way to hold it than close to your body: the thing weigh a massive 9-10kg, it's basically a wall you hide behind, and that's what scutati, ie Murmillo (said to come from "murus", wall in latin) and Secutor, mostly did), it just hangs from your shoulder with few muscle tension in your arm. You can even rest it on top of your foot if you're really tired. The round "Viking" shield, used like Roland Warzecha shows in one video, is obviously quite tiring, and you always need to go back and forth to protect your legs, which makes it worst.
I have a curiosity question regarding grip placement: What if you placed the grip lower down so that holding the kite at rest basically was holding it at ready, with the point still toward the ground? You could brace the top against your shoulder if necessary. I have no experience with any kind of fighting, though, so I don't know if that would actually work.
How did you feel about the kite shield implementation in S7E4 of Game of Thrones?
So this is years late but I’m writing a book and I’m think that the protagonist will have a kite shield but I don’t know what other weapon the protagonist should have on horseback and ground, such as a specific type of sword, spear, etc.
ive just eaten an expired sour punch candy stick with mold on it
I don't know if anyone has asked this but, why is the bottom tear drop shaped? I understand the curve on the top, but why not have something like an oval or even like a scutum on the bottom. Is there a specific reason for the bottom comming to a point and not being rounded?
Oh, so it's a horizontal center grip which used a lot in DS1...
Man really just said🛡
I just wanted to point out that saying that the curve of the kite shield is an "innovation" is not exactly true. It is one if you compare it to the Viking shield, but there are earlier examples of shields that were curved, like the Roman scutum or the Greek aspis/hoplon (which was kind of dome shaped).
Hi, nice videos. one very important question: How in the world are you fixing the kite shield on the wall????? is it just freakin floating? haha
Tharnie Santos LOL! Well I'm a bit reluctant to ruin the magic but unfortunately I'm just using nails, two lower ones that the shield is resting on.
I am Shad Haha thank you for the answer :) I watched the video 3 times trying to see where were you hanging it :)
But Shad....the scutum... I mean, the power you can get behind that thing on a charge, the sheer size of it, the ability to form testudo against missiles, the tapering reinforced edges...
(Punic Wars Roman kit fanboy is fanboying _hard_ )
You have got your horizontal and vertical mixed up if you are talking about the way the arm is facing
The scutum, the emperor of the shield!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought the main reason for the more central role of cavalry during the medieval period was the widespread adoption of the stirrup, allowing "impact" heavy cavalry with the lance.
Benjamin O'Donnell - You don't need stirrups to have effective shock cavalry, the ancient roman saddle ( it has 4 horns , look it up) works about as well . But otherwise you're mostly right
If it wasn't curved, would it not simply mean it could extend out to the sides more without adding weight? Or is the weight easier to handle when it's distributed closer to the arm?
Well, I know it is, but is it noticable with such a small curve?
I don't think that's too dignificant though, I think the deflecting property is probably most important.
It curves around the side of your body, so you don't necessarily need more extension from the sides.
The curve came before the kite shape. The curve deflects incoming force alot better and does so passively. A flat shield needs to be used actively to absorb incoming force if it is not to tilt. But is a more effective offensive weapon.
Maybe the curve came from more formationfighting and more missiles? While the flat shield is more skirmishing and single combat? In the germanic world single combat was part of the judicial system at least until the 16th centuary.
Martin Andersson Thx for the response, I was actually thinking about how ;little you would probably have to maneuver the shield to deflect even heavy impact strikes.. I think it also has a few weaknesses though, but I'm too lazy to write down my thoughts haha
DermoNONE Yeah that was what I meant, I realize it probably be harder to wield if it would extend further. But I think there's still interesting trade-offs.. Like I said in my other comment, too much to type :P
Thx for the response
Hey guys, what are kite shields generally made up of material-wise? The one in the video seemed to be steel reinforced by wood, but is that the norm?
How would you rank the skjoldr in comparison. I think it woukd be about Archduke level.
Is there a refrence of a shield wall integrating both at rest kite shields along will ready to have a more compact wall using the points?
As far as horses unable to carry a man from bronze age art i call bull but indeed around 900 ad we get a novel development the sturip or iron was first introduced from eastern Europe and asia
Weren't the roman rectangle-shields also curved? Hardly an innovation then...
How would you use a kite shield in a shieldwall?
what if you widen the bottom tip to make it more of an oval shield? is that unnecessary weight and bulk for not much protection? i feel like the leg needs more than just a narrow tip
did anyone else see an eagle flying over his head at 11:50 😛
+Diarmuid Balfe I think a cable dropped. Still funny shit. :D
Riot shields have had a lot of grips too.
Do you think it's possible that the long bottom half has developed as an addition to the round shield, in order to move the point of balance down the shield, so that the handle can be positioned lower down on the shield than it would be on a round shield of the same "diameter". As well as the increased leg protection?
Almus Quotch You actually raise a very good point about the center of balance in regard to Kite Shields, one that I go into in a video I've filmed but haven't uploaded yet. It'll be coming in the next few weeks. The different point of balance on the kite removes the requirement for a shield boss, as to why that's the case, well you'll have to wait for the video ^_^
Could you possibly have a shield boss that allowed center grip as well as having straps to allow good use on both foot and horseback?
+Muffinsaremagic I certainly don't see why not ^_^
very interesting mate. where in Australia are u based?
100RAmen Well I'm glad you like and I'm based in Victoria, east of Melbourne.
Would a cavalry kite shield not be smaller so more mobility for the user as generally cavalry men had the money to afford better armour due to being able to afford a horse so then the standard footmen would need the larger shield due to having less armour?
Seeing as the horse is holding your weight, I don't think that would be necessary. Plus, when it's that big, you have more protection for your horse, which is your biggest weakness.
I imagine the pattern is a bit disorienting while trying to find an opening and also watching for incoming sword strikes.
Hello Shad, may I ask, does the round or kite have better offensive abilities- shield edge bashing and such?
Drewster i think lindybeige has a video you may want to look at. Cannot link it to you as I am on my phone right now. I think its on the shape of axes. The round edge allows any angle strike to hit the opponent straight on. I'm not sure about Skyrim style shield bashes but am a little concerned about the bottom of the kite shield acting as leverage. I need to find an opponent with a kite shield before I can fully explore this idea though.
But if you run won’t you be kicking your shield every time? And if you raise it, you won’t see anything and run blind.