I have tried PLA-CF printing about 1.5 year ago... It looks great, it's unfortunately less strong than regular pla and just a bit more stiff... But the worst... I got strong itching on my fingers... under the microscope I had litterally thousands of carbon fibers in the skin of my fingers... and it didn't go away with washing, soap, tape, wax (yeah I was desesperate, especially I wear contact lenses... I don't think getting carbon fibers into my eyes is a good idea)... Finally got rig of most of it with sandpaper... I still had some fibers visible under the microscope 2 weeks after. Never ever touched that roll of filament again...
you won't find it recommended by any one because it's not good for you. but.. Super Glue from the dollar store, fingernail polish/adhesive or if you want to be really safe and official like me liquid bandage has a osha paper trail for use on skin. the acrylic like glue contains the dust or fibers to the area and bonds or sticks to them to make them larger and easier to deal with. keep your skin separated so it does not stick together wait for it to dry then when it's hard peel it off. if need use acetone(finger nail polish remover.) but remember the more you dissolve it instead of flake it the more of fibers are loused. the sand paper might scrape them in rather then pull them out. also, if you need to hide your fingerprints but don't want to wear gloves, superglue works well for that too. the things we do for a mortgage. just kidding.
Most fine particles are a hazard. *Any* particle below about 20 microns is a hazard. If you can avoid it, just don't be around it. My suggestion for reworking/sanding any nasty material is to do it *wet or submerged*. Intuitively, transverse sanding those carbon strands can release particles of a biologically unfortunate size. A mask works whilst you wear it, but unless you're accustomed to cleaning up a microbiology lab or clean room, it's safe to assume that junk is everywhere and waiting to be re-suspended next time you brush by the area (particularly if done near a window or other heat/plume source). This isn't to knock on carbon filament in "particular" but applies to a range of plastics, metals, etc... Your caution is not excessive if you wish to avoid some types of cancers. ;) What camera rig did you use for the macro shots, by the way? Enjoyable video as always, and thank you for sharing your work!
gth042 you are right and enough people aren’t aware of this. Laser engravers are one of kings for small particles, even with precautions the dust will be airborne the next time you walk the in work area and you will not likely be wearing a mask 24/7 to fully protect yourself. Although these laser machines are capable of great work, they are fundamentally unsafe.
TiagoTiago yes, that vacuum system doesn’t remove everything. There will still be particles that will make their way inside the room after removing the work material from the machine, which has some residue from cutting/engraving. If you’re around hazardous material, you can’t 100% isolate it, you will will be exposed to a certain extent of it. Some people just chose to ignore it until it becomes a problem for them, at which point it might be too late.
Pan Tac Would venting the output of the vacuum to the outside be considered pollution, or would the material that escaped the filter get diluted enough in the outside air and no longer be an issue?
TiagoTiago it’s always vented to the outside air as far as I know. I don’t know how legal it is. Neighbors might have a problem with it. The exhaust from the laser engraver I was around seemed to have some particles that escaped the filter and I could smell the fumes a little bit.
Dude - this was exceptionally well done! Thank you. Good point about carbon fiber particles - a friend of mine was a SAR Tech (Search And Rescue Technician) for the Canadian Armed forces up at Cold Lake where they flew the CF-18's. He had commented about the hazard of one of those planes going down because of fire and the carbon fiber used in the aircraft. The carbon fiber dust was especially dangerous - he flat out said it was deadly. I don't know anything about it besides what he said in passing.
It would be interesting to see how the properties would change if you annealed your parts using this type of filament. As always, I love your methodology, great work!
Anecdotally, I re-melted some scrap parts of XT-CF20, after finding them excessively brittle and I managed to turn them into a super strong, albeit warped, shrunken version of themselves.
Your findings match what I generally see with carbon-filled filaments, both PETG and nylon, which is that the fibers add rigidity at the expense of toughness and layer strength. But it does look sexy, and if you are making quadcopter or airplane parts it is less dense so your parts are lighter.
CNC Kitchen: I think it depends on the brand. For instance, 3dxtech has a CF nylon that is very high in fiber content. I use it for making fan shrouds and such on 3D printers because it is light and heat resistant.
Fun factish thing. I’m pretty sure Carbon fibre/fiber is more dense than most thermoplastics, especially the ones in 3d printing. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
@@josiahong5177 I believe you are right. I think the idea is that the extra stiffness from the small percentage of carbon fiber added allows you to use less plastic, and overall there is a weight savings.
Although the fibres seem well aligned with a 0.4mm nozzle, I wonder if a smaller nozzle would have an even better polarizing effect yielding stronger prints... although jams might start to become problematic. Thanks for the thoughtful and comprehensive video.
Love this video and the scientific approach to filament testing. One suggestion, have you considered getting an air quality monitor? I have been testing and documenting air purifiers, diy ventilation and different filament particle release by using an air quality monitor. I think this sort of testing and information would fit nicely within your videos and process. Keep up the great work and thanks for helping the 3d print community.
Wow just found this channel. Bought my first 3d printer last week. I love the mechanics of materials approach this channel has for testing filaments. Extremely insightful for appropriation of filaments for prototyping. Subscribed!
Nice information and good video, your right to be worried about your health while printing don't take any chances, I did with electroplating, even the chemicals warned me about cancer, I still carried on and now I have terminal throat cancer Keep safe Regards Debbie
I would suggest a respirator when abrading any material with fiber like reinforcement but i dont think theres anything to worry about printing with it. The stray fiber might escape the material and there but being contained in molten plastic its probably safer while its printing than when its just sitting around.
I found a roll for 25$ and it had 20% carbon fiber and it printed great I can tell it does have carbon fibers because when I switch to a clearish filament the fibers left in the nozzle come out with the clear filament.
I spent a lot of time working with ColorFabb support to try to get this filament to print properly for me. It's an absolute headache and when compared to other high end PLA's, just wasn't worth the cost or challenge to make it print well. I had high hopes and loved the matte finish. But a nightmare to dial in and work with for moderately good prints
I would think if you look at the printing shop/fab/ home as being like a cleanroom it would be next to imposible to clean up micro deposits of. Carbon fiber dust all throughout. I'd expect much more strength etc from carbon but for the cost/biohazard I'll hold off indefinitely. PLA and PETG maybe TPU as well seem to be the strongest most versatile overall. Up till now I was only purchasing PLA+. Great vidios I'd been planning to research all the filaments but hadn't come close to getting around to it as I'm just starting out and juggling quite alot. Your research helps out the community immensly thanks!
i think this filament suffers a bit from false marketing. Calling it "fiber reinforced" creates a false similarity to "proper" or traditional fiber reinforced materials, which are much stronger. These kinds of materials do not print well, since the printing process severely limits fiber length and the ability of the fibers to intertwine. It may have its uses, but i think they should have come up with a different name and marketing strategy. This is inprecise at best deceiving at worst
What’s wrong with saying it’s fiber reinforced? The carbon fiber adds rigidity the the nylon creating a balanced filament between strength and stiffness. Nothing states that it’s continuous fiber printing.
Fibers don't really need to be intertwined to increase toughness. Part of energy absorption is not through breaking of the fibers but also the pulling of fibers through its surrounding matrix. While true these aren't what they could be, it is still tougher in theory.
@@christopherlam4414 they dont need to be intertwined, but the properties of a fibrous material are strongly influenced by the length of the fibres and interconnectivity. Fiber-reinforced materials have existed for a long time. While - in theory - any material containing fibers could be called that, actually doing so creates a false equivalency. Its dishonest marketing. This is especially true since there are printers out there that actually introduce proper fiber reinforcement, like continuous fiber printers. The typical carbon fiber filament is more like a fiber infused/filled material. Its properties are mostly determined by the binder and slightly adjusted by the fiber.
@@TheVergile yeah but there isn't really a way to get anywhere near the critical length so we can't realistically rely on the fiber itself for strength. I agree its not anywhere near as effective as fibers at its critical length but its something
Well it seems CF filament is more a gimmick than a composite with significant enhanced properties, plus the risks of the small particles. I do wonder if aramid loaded filament would be better than CF, i guess if the fibers are long enough it could have a significant improvement in tensile strength, do you know if someone is already trying this?
GREAT and very INFORMATIVE mate. I watched this video for about 2 minutes and subscribed IMMEDIATELY. Thank you so much for sharing your superb knowledge!! Cheers, p.
No. Carbon fiber dust / loose micro fibers can have some health impact (irritation and possibly lung damage), but it is nothing compared to the hazards of asbestos (cancer! and other lung damage).
@@adamguichard6882 It's not about the material, it's about the size of the dust particles. If the material contains the fibers in such a formfactor as asbestos then it could cause lung cancer
The Carbon fiber filaments aren't going to be any more dangerous than a fiberglass reinforces polymer. And Fiberglass is an incredibly common material to impregnate plastics with. Yes you should try to avoid breathing it in, but it isn't going to harm you unless you snort the dust like a line of cocaine.
I think you guys need to chill. You arent a profesional 3d printer who prints this carbon every hour every day for 10 years. Like carpenters do with their materials. Once you start working in a pro printing (or any other pro enviroment), everything is in closed enviroments with buttloads of filters. And if it, its mandatory to use masks.
@CNC Kitchen now there is more variety of carbon fibre filaments would you be interested in doing a new video comparing pla petg and nylon? Plus any others
To reduce moisture and keep dust off my filament I leave the plastic bag around the spool and simply cut a slit for the horizontal peg to hold the spool in position. That way the spool stays in the the bag the throughout its use.
With our location buying a HEPA filter was out of the physical size equation. After building an enclosure for our CR10s Pro we simply setup a fan that pulls and recirculates the chamber air through a carbon face mask. it works great and is a bunch cheaper than buying HEPA elements.
Breathing fine metal dust and powdered fiberglass can and does give you mesothelioma. I'm not sure if the fibers in the carbon fiber carry the same risk but for safety's sake we should assume similar or even the same health risk is applicable. Thankfully I already have a perfect 3m p100 multigas respirator and even p100 non gas pancake filters near at hand and the filters are cheap and readily available. Thanks for everything you do. This information is invaluable.
Have you heard of the iro3d metal printer? It's a printer where you print a dry sand-metal mixture and then the part is cured in a kiln. This produces full density metal prints. And it's "only" $5,000.
Interesting input !! I will check out the $5000 3D printer you mentioned. As a technical note, sand filled metal filaments cannot produce fully metallic parts. By definition, sand is not a metal... (Not trying to be nit-picky, only sayin...)
I read a paper where the coated the outside of the filament with carbon fiber, then heated in a microwave over this made the prints strength nonbiased to the print layering. Can you try heating it in a microwave to see if it increases layer cohesion?
I think you said that although the carbon fibre filament produced more rigid parts/products than most other filaments did, it did not produce as tough of test specimens as some other 3D printing polymer filaments. I think you mentioned polycarbonate filaments produced tougher parts. With price of filament not being a restricting factor, apart from polycarbonate filaments, what other polymer filaments would you recommend, if maximum toughness was your overriding design goal ?? For example, how does polycarbonate toughness compare to nylon66 ?? (Are they the same thing ??) Great video !! (Liked & subscribed !!)
A comparison of different brand CF Nylons would be interesting, say eSun CF Nylon vs VisionMiner vs MatterHackers NnylonX and finally this one tested here.
I have worked with cured carbon fiber and you do need a mask if sanding, but if you are just printing it you should be good. The fibers should stay in the filament as it is still hot.
@CNC Kitchen you do realize there's an export settings function to Slic3r? You could add the .INI files to your description to make replicating tunes much much more efficient.
I wonder why no one tests the filament before printing it -- I know it wouldn't translate 1:1, but it could give you a baseline -- like, if the base filament strands are much stronger than PLA then you would know you may need to tune the printer to get better results, but if it's about the same as PLA then you know the filament probably isn't even worth testing...
Great filament test! Your test matches with my experiences i had with this material. I would like to see test of Fillamentum HT PLA which should have great printing quality and high temperature resistance.
I would tend to assume that since those particules are imbedded into the plastic it would not be a hazard to use this material. Of course, avoid manipulation as much as possible, even ware latex glove. Also, avoid sending or using a saw, which would shoot particules into the air. Otherwise I think its safe.
I was printing some parts with nylon CF and my fingers were SOOO itchy... I used a microscope to find THOUSANDS of CF strands in my skin and nothing would get them off. Not even wax. Scotchbrite pad did the trick tho....
It's very interesting that the filament needed drying to perform well. Even though it sat on the shelf for a year, it was still sealed in plastic with desiccant. Is it possible to tell when drying will help with a particular filament? Are there any guidelines for drying time and temperature for various materials? This would make a valuable video!
Yes, that's what I thought, but the ColorFabb XT-CF20 tested in this video is a copolyester, Eastman Amphora, presumably PETG. I found an interesting article at www.matterhackers.com/news/filament-and-water that says, "If you have nylon, polycarbonate, or PETG and the spool has been sitting out for more than a day or so, then you likely need to dry it." It also has nice instructions. Think I'm going to try it.
oh yeah, I have the XT from colorfabb, not this one with carbon fiber, it dripps a lot, Ngen is much better. Make sure to use this filament with a hardened nozzle cause it kills brass nozzle with just 250gr. I tested PLA Carbon Fiber from Protopasta. Talking about drying filaments there is a drying box solution, those that dehidrated foods and fruits, you can try to find it here at RUclips, need an easy adaptation to work with filaments
i’m not a good fan of CF filaments not just because it wear the nozzle, nowadays I have some strong nozzles, but the fibers inside the filament are cutted, it doesn’t perform like the real continuous fiber glass stuffs, it doesn’t bend and broke easy. The major benefit is lightwheight
Carbon fibers biggest pro is its strength vs weight. Carbon Fiber PLA is not necessarily stronger but lighter. Its about 25% lighter and of similar strength. I am printing boat parts in Carbon Fiber PLA and it is better than normal PLA. Normal PLA tends to shatter on my boat but the carbon lasts for significantly longer. Also it has great lubrication and wear properties. If people think carbon fiber filament will make their prints stronger then they will be disappointed
I've used about a spool now of a different brand and yea this is more of marketing tool rather than a useful material. I've made a lot of carbon fiber parts for cars and bikes over the years and in this application there is just not enough weave or overlapping of particles to really make much of a difference. I too have noticed clean up is an issue if you do any kind of finishing sanding or drilling. Mask or respirator for fine particles should be used along with gloves and a better disposal solution should be used instead of tossing flash or support material into your 3D printer trash bin. It does look good and it's fun to say 3d fiber this an that but I never found a project where this improved on the end result. Although compression forces might be improved now that I think of it. The fibers may hold it all together for longer under force.
What if you reprogrammed the layers? First layer one direction, followed by second layer put down perpendicular to the first. Repeat alternating layer direction through the part. Would that not increase the strength of the part?
3D printers already do that actually. When I use "lines" or "zig zag" pattern on the top and bottom layers it will alternate the direction for each layer. With "concentric" pattern each layer will be printed in the same direction.
I wish there was more info on how to 3D print using continuous fibers, both carbon and fiberglass rovings embedded in nylon or uv curing resin. Of course that requires a custom and complex hot end, but it would enable parts that are tougher than steel. I know there is a printer now, but it's super expensive and the custom filament ridiculously priced.
@@josiahong5177 Not as much as you might think; the epoxy (especially if you get a very non-viscous formulation) tends to have a consistent thickness which you can account for in the model and/or print settings.
I thank you for this vlog. I think as a newbie this is one product I will not be using in the future. Too much hassle for too less benefit. I can’t see a use for it.
If you want it stronger you need to take care of the Fiber Directions in each layer. 0° first, then 90°, after that 45°, then 135°. The different orientation of each layer will increase the toughness and strenght of the filament.
Fine fibers from asbestos causes mesothelioma (malignant cancer of pleural surface of lungs) sometimes after 15 years past exposure and has a survival rate of 5 years in less than 3 % cases. Its because if those fibers go into your lungs they cause scarring and stay there basically forever. I would not be surprised if even small exposure to carbon fiber would have same effect on your lungs. So nope, you are not being overcautious wearing the mask. If I was you I would even take air samples long after project is done to make sure room is not contaminated.
Even tho im replying to 2 y.o. comment and copying it from my og comment... Apart from asbestos, carbon fiber can be cough out or just should not be harmful as asbestos. Carbon fiber has similiar health hazards as Glass Fiber, but idk if the macrophage can destroy it, still, you can cough it out. Asbestos fiber looks like "barbed wire" thus leading to said lung diseases, beause, thanks to it's shape, it is scratching lungs. Mesothelioma can be caused by small exposure, BUT it is rare. Asbestosis is not rare, but you need to huff it everyday. But one thing here... Carbon fiber uses epoxy, which, when heated, can cause cancer. In older days, asbestos was "miracle" and "future" of our homes.. now a nasty chemical.. and the same will propably happen to carbon stuff, if we don't find better gule-stuff to stick it together.
I don’t think the exposure is the same. Asbestos is in mats where all the fibers are open and able to escape into the air if disturbed, this CF is embedded in plastic.
For me compairing carbon fiber to this "carbon fiber filament" is like comparing KFC Tenders to Mc Donald's Chicken Nuggets...On one side you have something, on the other side you have something that you scratch from the one side, then put in a blender, add some "glue", put in the shape that you want, do the magical marketing thing, and voilà...
Excellent video Stefan! I have an Ender 5 on it's way to me, and I intend to print bed supports for it with the XT-CF20 filament. I've also ordered the same nozzle from E3D. I'm thinking I can reduce thickness of the supports if I'm using C/F, do think it's feasible? Alternatively I might print the dual Z axis parts as seen on Thingiverse and go that route. Either way, it's all interesting and fun stuff!!!
Very cool. This is one of the best 3d printing channels. I have been using Sainsmart ePA-CF filament (75% nylon, 25% CF) to print drone frames. I have been using single wall thickness tube structures to achieve a balance of weight and strength. I have been getting great results, but over a few months, a very rigid frame will become quite flexible, almost floppy. Is this because the print has absorbed water? If so, how can I seal the print to avoid this? Vielen Dank! -Seppi
To me it looks like the fire is it to space out to get better performance I believe the fibers have to be longer and have much more overlapWar have a fibers not in uniform direction and be able to connect multiple layers together by crossing between one layer to the layer above and below
Thanks for the review, I tried some tests myself and I have to say I am kinda disappointed. The filament look really nice, like one of the best finishes I have ever seen, but it's mechanical properties are not really what you expect from something with carbon fiber in the name... Unless you really need the stiffness go with something else. Colorfabb makes really great filaments but I had higher hopes for this one...
I'm actually surprised that you had to adjust the extrusion percentage. Mine worked fine at the same rate as PETG. I wonder if that's got something to do with your extruder, and the rigid nature of the material? Some plastics will compress more in a strongly clamped extruder.
Could you use the bare fillament to reinforce a print made with another material by pausing the print with the other material and laying the filament on channels, and maybe a quick pass of a heatgun or even a clothes iron, to fuse the two filaments every few layers?
If carbon fibre filled PETG has such a high stiffness, what about carbon fibre filled ABS or even PC-MAX? I just want something with crazy stiffness, decent layer adhesion, and no problems with creep. CF-XT20 certainly impresses in that regard, whilst also achieving the best surface finish on any FDM part I've seen, even bridging looks practically perfect, but surely we can do better in terms of stiffness? P.S. I tend to print slow (15mm/s external perimetres) with XT-20 at 265 degrees for good layer-adhesion. I also use tungsten carbide nozzles, since hardened steel nozzles have horrible thermal conductivity and aren't nearly as durable.
I have the exact same filament siting on the shelf for over a year now, I have to finely print something, thanks for the test @CNC Kitchen :) btw, will you change ever the PEI on the bed on your MK2S?
Do you have the STL's for the basic filament printing tests that you show early on in the video? not the ones in your patreon. Like the overhang test is a particular nice looking test model I want to try out on my monitor with some materials myself.
Thats not true. The weave on carbon fiber is aesthetic, the strength comes from parallel oriented fibers in layers below the weave. For painted CF, they don't use a weave layer.
@Okleydokley: Yes, it IS true. Study why alternate layers in plywood are alinged 90 degrees transverse to each other... It's so that the plywood won't crack when high force is applied, because the wood fibers running 90 degrees opposite to the direction to the wood fibers of the layers above and/or below it prevent cracks from deepening when force starts to overcome the strength of the fibers of any single layer. Just sayin...
I know this is a pretty old video, but can you use a deeper focus lens so we can see more of what’s in your closeup shots w/o having to wait for you to manually adjust the focus to different parts?
I have tried PLA-CF printing about 1.5 year ago... It looks great, it's unfortunately less strong than regular pla and just a bit more stiff...
But the worst... I got strong itching on my fingers... under the microscope I had litterally thousands of carbon fibers in the skin of my fingers... and it didn't go away with washing, soap, tape, wax (yeah I was desesperate, especially I wear contact lenses... I don't think getting carbon fibers into my eyes is a good idea)... Finally got rig of most of it with sandpaper... I still had some fibers visible under the microscope 2 weeks after. Never ever touched that roll of filament again...
Very interesting to know.
CappellaTheCat I guess it's the 3D printing equivalent of mineral wool 😛
you won't find it recommended by any one because it's not good for you.
but.. Super Glue from the dollar store, fingernail polish/adhesive or if you want to be really safe and official like me liquid bandage has a osha paper trail for use on skin.
the acrylic like glue contains the dust or fibers to the area and bonds or sticks to them to make them larger and easier to deal with.
keep your skin separated so it does not stick together wait for it to dry then when it's hard peel it off.
if need use acetone(finger nail polish remover.) but remember the more you dissolve it instead of flake it the more of fibers are loused.
the sand paper might scrape them in rather then pull them out.
also, if you need to hide your fingerprints but don't want to wear gloves, superglue works well for that too. the things we do for a mortgage. just kidding.
No it's 3D printing equivalent of asbestos. Or worse.
Capella, do you have any of those images of your hands?
Really in-depth and comprehensive. Impressive test setups. Thanks.
Love seeing scientifically rigorous test setups. Kudos!
Most fine particles are a hazard. *Any* particle below about 20 microns is a hazard. If you can avoid it, just don't be around it. My suggestion for reworking/sanding any nasty material is to do it *wet or submerged*. Intuitively, transverse sanding those carbon strands can release particles of a biologically unfortunate size. A mask works whilst you wear it, but unless you're accustomed to cleaning up a microbiology lab or clean room, it's safe to assume that junk is everywhere and waiting to be re-suspended next time you brush by the area (particularly if done near a window or other heat/plume source). This isn't to knock on carbon filament in "particular" but applies to a range of plastics, metals, etc... Your caution is not excessive if you wish to avoid some types of cancers. ;)
What camera rig did you use for the macro shots, by the way?
Enjoyable video as always, and thank you for sharing your work!
gth042 you are right and enough people aren’t aware of this. Laser engravers are one of kings for small particles, even with precautions the dust will be airborne the next time you walk the in work area and you will not likely be wearing a mask 24/7 to fully protect yourself. Although these laser machines are capable of great work, they are fundamentally unsafe.
Pan Tac Even if the engraver has an enclosure with negative pressure, and the air sucked from it goes thru a filter?
TiagoTiago yes, that vacuum system doesn’t remove everything. There will still be particles that will make their way inside the room after removing the work material from the machine, which has some residue from cutting/engraving. If you’re around hazardous material, you can’t 100% isolate it, you will will be exposed to a certain extent of it. Some people just chose to ignore it until it becomes a problem for them, at which point it might be too late.
Pan Tac Would venting the output of the vacuum to the outside be considered pollution, or would the material that escaped the filter get diluted enough in the outside air and no longer be an issue?
TiagoTiago it’s always vented to the outside air as far as I know. I don’t know how legal it is. Neighbors might have a problem with it. The exhaust from the laser engraver I was around seemed to have some particles that escaped the filter and I could smell the fumes a little bit.
Dude - this was exceptionally well done! Thank you. Good point about carbon fiber particles - a friend of mine was a SAR Tech (Search And Rescue Technician) for the Canadian Armed forces up at Cold Lake where they flew the CF-18's. He had commented about the hazard of one of those planes going down because of fire and the carbon fiber used in the aircraft. The carbon fiber dust was especially dangerous - he flat out said it was deadly. I don't know anything about it besides what he said in passing.
Based on the title... Who's thumbing this video down?! It's incredibly in depth and diligent.
It would be interesting to see how the properties would change if you annealed your parts using this type of filament. As always, I love your methodology, great work!
Anecdotally, I re-melted some scrap parts of XT-CF20, after finding them excessively brittle and I managed to turn them into a super strong, albeit warped, shrunken version of themselves.
Your findings match what I generally see with carbon-filled filaments, both PETG and nylon, which is that the fibers add rigidity at the expense of toughness and layer strength. But it does look sexy, and if you are making quadcopter or airplane parts it is less dense so your parts are lighter.
Interestingly the carbon fibers decrease the density really a little (around 5%).
CNC Kitchen: I think it depends on the brand. For instance, 3dxtech has a CF nylon that is very high in fiber content. I use it for making fan shrouds and such on 3D printers because it is light and heat resistant.
Fun factish thing. I’m pretty sure Carbon fibre/fiber is more dense than most thermoplastics, especially the ones in 3d printing. Correct me if I’m wrong though.
@@josiahong5177 I believe you are right. I think the idea is that the extra stiffness from the small percentage of carbon fiber added allows you to use less plastic, and overall there is a weight savings.
@@0calvin okay, makes sense. I always wondered why the cf nylon I used was denser than the regular nylon I used.
Although the fibres seem well aligned with a 0.4mm nozzle, I wonder if a smaller nozzle would have an even better polarizing effect yielding stronger prints... although jams might start to become problematic. Thanks for the thoughtful and comprehensive video.
Love this video and the scientific approach to filament testing. One suggestion, have you considered getting an air quality monitor? I have been testing and documenting air purifiers, diy ventilation and different filament particle release by using an air quality monitor. I think this sort of testing and information would fit nicely within your videos and process. Keep up the great work and thanks for helping the 3d print community.
Wow just found this channel. Bought my first 3d printer last week. I love the mechanics of materials approach this channel has for testing filaments. Extremely insightful for appropriation of filaments for prototyping. Subscribed!
Nice information and good video, your right to be worried about your health while printing don't take any chances, I did with electroplating, even the chemicals warned me about cancer, I still carried on and now I have terminal throat cancer Keep safe Regards Debbie
Thanks, the most down to earth and honest review of this pla blend
It’s a copolyester
I would suggest a respirator when abrading any material with fiber like reinforcement but i dont think theres anything to worry about printing with it. The stray fiber might escape the material and there but being contained in molten plastic its probably safer while its printing than when its just sitting around.
A pro tip for when working with carbon fiber (sanding etc.) is to wet the surface beforehand so that the fibers do not become airborne.
Odd Spaghetti then throw it down the sink?
I found a roll for 25$ and it had 20% carbon fiber and it printed great
I can tell it does have carbon fibers because when I switch to a clearish filament the fibers left in the nozzle come out with the clear filament.
I spent a lot of time working with ColorFabb support to try to get this filament to print properly for me. It's an absolute headache and when compared to other high end PLA's, just wasn't worth the cost or challenge to make it print well. I had high hopes and loved the matte finish. But a nightmare to dial in and work with for moderately good prints
I would think if you look at the printing shop/fab/ home as being like a cleanroom it would be next to imposible to clean up micro deposits of. Carbon fiber dust all throughout. I'd expect much more strength etc from carbon but for the cost/biohazard I'll hold off indefinitely. PLA and PETG maybe TPU as well seem to be the strongest most versatile overall. Up till now I was only purchasing PLA+. Great vidios I'd been planning to research all the filaments but hadn't come close to getting around to it as I'm just starting out and juggling quite alot. Your research helps out the community immensly thanks!
i think this filament suffers a bit from false marketing. Calling it "fiber reinforced" creates a false similarity to "proper" or traditional fiber reinforced materials, which are much stronger. These kinds of materials do not print well, since the printing process severely limits fiber length and the ability of the fibers to intertwine. It may have its uses, but i think they should have come up with a different name and marketing strategy. This is inprecise at best deceiving at worst
What’s wrong with saying it’s fiber reinforced? The carbon fiber adds rigidity the the nylon creating a balanced filament between strength and stiffness. Nothing states that it’s continuous fiber printing.
I agee whith yuo..its preaty marketing
Fibers don't really need to be intertwined to increase toughness. Part of energy absorption is not through breaking of the fibers but also the pulling of fibers through its surrounding matrix. While true these aren't what they could be, it is still tougher in theory.
@@christopherlam4414 they dont need to be intertwined, but the properties of a fibrous material are strongly influenced by the length of the fibres and interconnectivity.
Fiber-reinforced materials have existed for a long time. While - in theory - any material containing fibers could be called that, actually doing so creates a false equivalency.
Its dishonest marketing.
This is especially true since there are printers out there that actually introduce proper fiber reinforcement, like continuous fiber printers.
The typical carbon fiber filament is more like a fiber infused/filled material. Its properties are mostly determined by the binder and slightly adjusted by the fiber.
@@TheVergile yeah but there isn't really a way to get anywhere near the critical length so we can't realistically rely on the fiber itself for strength. I agree its not anywhere near as effective as fibers at its critical length but its something
Well it seems CF filament is more a gimmick than a composite with significant enhanced properties, plus the risks of the small particles. I do wonder if aramid loaded filament would be better than CF, i guess if the fibers are long enough it could have a significant improvement in tensile strength, do you know if someone is already trying this?
Good question.
Someone mentioned Kevlar impregnated filaments...
GREAT and very INFORMATIVE mate. I watched this video for about 2 minutes and subscribed IMMEDIATELY. Thank you so much for sharing your superb knowledge!!
Cheers, p.
Oh boy! Filament with all the danger of asbestos!
What a great idea.
No. Carbon fiber dust / loose micro fibers can have some health impact (irritation and possibly lung damage), but it is nothing compared to the hazards of asbestos (cancer! and other lung damage).
@@adamguichard6882 It's not about the material, it's about the size of the dust particles. If the material contains the fibers in such a formfactor as asbestos then it could cause lung cancer
The Carbon fiber filaments aren't going to be any more dangerous than a fiberglass reinforces polymer. And Fiberglass is an incredibly common material to impregnate plastics with. Yes you should try to avoid breathing it in, but it isn't going to harm you unless you snort the dust like a line of cocaine.
@@erebus6062 can confirm
I think you guys need to chill. You arent a profesional 3d printer who prints this carbon every hour every day for 10 years. Like carpenters do with their materials.
Once you start working in a pro printing (or any other pro enviroment), everything is in closed enviroments with buttloads of filters. And if it, its mandatory to use masks.
@CNC Kitchen now there is more variety of carbon fibre filaments would you be interested in doing a new video comparing pla petg and nylon? Plus any others
To reduce moisture and keep dust off my filament I leave the plastic bag around the spool and simply cut a slit for the horizontal peg to hold the spool in position. That way the spool stays in the the bag the throughout its use.
6:30 try getting a HEPA filter, and/or put the printer intoa an enclosure, ive seen some nice ones using IKEA Lack Tables.
With our location buying a HEPA filter was out of the physical size equation. After building an enclosure for our CR10s Pro we simply setup a fan that pulls and recirculates the chamber air through a carbon face mask. it works great and is a bunch cheaper than buying HEPA elements.
Wow. What a quality review. Thank you!
Breathing fine metal dust and powdered fiberglass can and does give you mesothelioma.
I'm not sure if the fibers in the carbon fiber carry the same risk but for safety's sake we should assume similar or even the same health risk is applicable.
Thankfully I already have a perfect 3m p100 multigas respirator and even p100 non gas pancake filters near at hand and the filters are cheap and readily available.
Thanks for everything you do. This information is invaluable.
Have you heard of the iro3d metal printer? It's a printer where you print a dry sand-metal mixture and then the part is cured in a kiln. This produces full density metal prints. And it's "only" $5,000.
Interesting input !!
I will check out the $5000 3D printer you mentioned.
As a technical note, sand filled metal filaments cannot produce fully metallic parts. By definition, sand is not a metal... (Not trying to be nit-picky, only sayin...)
@@jeffthompson2464 The sand isn't mixed with the metal. The process is similar to casting.
I read a paper where the coated the outside of the filament with carbon fiber, then heated in a microwave over this made the prints strength nonbiased to the print layering. Can you try heating it in a microwave to see if it increases layer cohesion?
I think you said that although the carbon fibre filament produced more rigid parts/products than most other filaments did, it did not produce as tough of test specimens as some other 3D printing polymer filaments.
I think you mentioned polycarbonate filaments produced tougher parts.
With price of filament not being a restricting factor, apart from polycarbonate filaments, what other polymer filaments would you recommend, if maximum toughness was your overriding design goal ??
For example, how does polycarbonate toughness compare to nylon66 ?? (Are they the same thing ??)
Great video !! (Liked & subscribed !!)
A comparison of different brand CF Nylons would be interesting, say eSun CF Nylon vs VisionMiner vs MatterHackers NnylonX and finally this one tested here.
get a shop air vacume system to ventilate the air , it will help keep remove the particle from the air.but yet still ware a dust mask.
You should look into Onyx material from mark forged. Same concept, much better execution.
Everyone stop using CF in your homes!!!! It might be carcinogenic
I have worked with cured carbon fiber and you do need a mask if sanding, but if you are just printing it you should be good. The fibers should stay in the filament as it is still hot.
Probably, but why breathe polymer vapors ??
Thank you for this video. I think you are right to take proper precautions around this material. Remember we only get one pair of lungs!
@CNC Kitchen you do realize there's an export settings function to Slic3r? You could add the .INI files to your description to make replicating tunes much much more efficient.
I wonder why no one tests the filament before printing it -- I know it wouldn't translate 1:1, but it could give you a baseline -- like, if the base filament strands are much stronger than PLA then you would know you may need to tune the printer to get better results, but if it's about the same as PLA then you know the filament probably isn't even worth testing...
I thought he tested the filament at 5:30?
It could be interesting to try to print this in an enclosure and a small mesh filter to see if small carbon fibre particle are released
They will be, dangerous CF particles are only 5nm long. You need a really good filter. I'd recommend staying away from CF altogether
I’m not sure why adding carbon anything to 3D media would do anything. It’s just adhesives. I found it very interesting to watch your vid.
Look up NylonX fillement. The durability is insane
Great filament test! Your test matches with my experiences i had with this material. I would like to see test of Fillamentum HT PLA which should have great printing quality and high temperature resistance.
I would tend to assume that since those particules are imbedded into the plastic it would not be a hazard to use this material. Of course, avoid manipulation as much as possible, even ware latex glove. Also, avoid sending or using a saw, which would shoot particules into the air. Otherwise I think its safe.
I was printing some parts with nylon CF and my fingers were SOOO itchy... I used a microscope to find THOUSANDS of CF strands in my skin and nothing would get them off. Not even wax. Scotchbrite pad did the trick tho....
It's very interesting that the filament needed drying to perform well. Even though it sat on the shelf for a year, it was still sealed in plastic with desiccant. Is it possible to tell when drying will help with a particular filament? Are there any guidelines for drying time and temperature for various materials? This would make a valuable video!
As far as I know PVA and Nylon are the filaments that absorve more humidity, you need to take extra care with those.
Yes, that's what I thought, but the ColorFabb XT-CF20 tested in this video is a copolyester, Eastman Amphora, presumably PETG. I found an interesting article at www.matterhackers.com/news/filament-and-water that says, "If you have nylon, polycarbonate, or PETG and the spool has been sitting out for more than a day or so, then you likely need to dry it." It also has nice instructions. Think I'm going to try it.
oh yeah, I have the XT from colorfabb, not this one with carbon fiber, it dripps a lot, Ngen is much better. Make sure to use this filament with a hardened nozzle cause it kills brass nozzle with just 250gr. I tested PLA Carbon Fiber from Protopasta.
Talking about drying filaments there is a drying box solution, those that dehidrated foods and fruits, you can try to find it here at RUclips, need an easy adaptation to work with filaments
i’m not a good fan of CF filaments not just because it wear the nozzle, nowadays I have some strong nozzles, but the fibers inside the filament are cutted, it doesn’t perform like the real continuous fiber glass stuffs, it doesn’t bend and broke easy. The major benefit is lightwheight
This will be great for IBT Stacks
Carbon fibers biggest pro is its strength vs weight. Carbon Fiber PLA is not necessarily stronger but lighter. Its about 25% lighter and of similar strength. I am printing boat parts in Carbon Fiber PLA and it is better than normal PLA. Normal PLA tends to shatter on my boat but the carbon lasts for significantly longer. Also it has great lubrication and wear properties. If people think carbon fiber filament will make their prints stronger then they will be disappointed
I've used about a spool now of a different brand and yea this is more of marketing tool rather than a useful material. I've made a lot of carbon fiber parts for cars and bikes over the years and in this application there is just not enough weave or overlapping of particles to really make much of a difference. I too have noticed clean up is an issue if you do any kind of finishing sanding or drilling. Mask or respirator for fine particles should be used along with gloves and a better disposal solution should be used instead of tossing flash or support material into your 3D printer trash bin. It does look good and it's fun to say 3d fiber this an that but I never found a project where this improved on the end result. Although compression forces might be improved now that I think of it. The fibers may hold it all together for longer under force.
Great video! I'm super unimpressed at the lack up updates from Simplify 3D over the last year... :( Hope that changes soon!
i work with fiber glass, G10, and Carbon Fiber a lot... and if you are sanding these... you for sure need gloves and a respirator. GOOD CALL!
What if you reprogrammed the layers? First layer one direction, followed by second layer put down perpendicular to the first. Repeat alternating layer direction through the part. Would that not increase the strength of the part?
3D printers already do that actually. When I use "lines" or "zig zag" pattern on the top and bottom layers it will alternate the direction for each layer. With "concentric" pattern each layer will be printed in the same direction.
long fiber PLA-CF is a new thing. i wonder if its less horrible on the body.
Very cool. Although was it a fair test if you had it stored for so long? Is this stuff safe on the skin once printed?
I would think you should be safe as long as you restrict sanding parts to outside and with a respirator.
did you build a mini quad out of that?
I wish there was more info on how to 3D print using continuous fibers, both carbon and fiberglass rovings embedded in nylon or uv curing resin. Of course that requires a custom and complex hot end, but it would enable parts that are tougher than steel.
I know there is a printer now, but it's super expensive and the custom filament ridiculously priced.
Yeah, I will second that !!
I know it is easy to look up, but the density would have been nice to know for weight-critical applications.
Can carbon fiber infused filament such as this be safely be used for parts where contact with the skin is often happening, for example a door knob?
After printing, I’d coat it with something... epoxy perhaps.
But wouldn’t you lose the accuracy and tolerance?
@@josiahong5177 Not as much as you might think; the epoxy (especially if you get a very non-viscous formulation) tends to have a consistent thickness which you can account for in the model and/or print settings.
@@darkwinter6028 okay
The orthotropic strenght properties of the prints are interesting
Is that a mini tri-copter you're printing around the 6:30 mark? Great video, I like your style!
I thank you for this vlog. I think as a newbie this is one product I will not be using in the future. Too much hassle for too less benefit. I can’t see a use for it.
Nice... very informative indeed! Thanks for the time and effort.
If you want it stronger you need to take care of the Fiber Directions in each layer. 0° first, then 90°, after that 45°, then 135°. The different orientation of each layer will increase the toughness and strenght of the filament.
how would you accomplish this during the printing process?
Fine fibers from asbestos causes mesothelioma (malignant cancer of pleural surface of lungs) sometimes after 15 years past exposure and has a survival rate of 5 years in less than 3 % cases. Its because if those fibers go into your lungs they cause scarring and stay there basically forever. I would not be surprised if even small exposure to carbon fiber would have same effect on your lungs. So nope, you are not being overcautious wearing the mask. If I was you I would even take air samples long after project is done to make sure room is not contaminated.
Attention, If you or a loved one suffers from mesothelioma...
Shit now you made me stupid scared
Even tho im replying to 2 y.o. comment and copying it from my og comment... Apart from asbestos, carbon fiber can be cough out or just should not be harmful as asbestos. Carbon fiber has similiar health hazards as Glass Fiber, but idk if the macrophage can destroy it, still, you can cough it out. Asbestos fiber looks like "barbed wire" thus leading to said lung diseases, beause, thanks to it's shape, it is scratching lungs. Mesothelioma can be caused by small exposure, BUT it is rare. Asbestosis is not rare, but you need to huff it everyday.
But one thing here...
Carbon fiber uses epoxy, which, when heated, can cause cancer. In older days, asbestos was "miracle" and "future" of our homes.. now a nasty chemical.. and the same will propably happen to carbon stuff, if we don't find better gule-stuff to stick it together.
😁. U need proper gear, don't do this at home people.. 😁
I don’t think the exposure is the same. Asbestos is in mats where all the fibers are open and able to escape into the air if disturbed, this CF is embedded in plastic.
Great review! Thorough and to the point, as well!
I was only wondering what is the test print for fan speed, nozzle temp and layer adhesion at 2:30?
This is 3D Maker Noobs Temperature Tower: www.thingiverse.com/thing:2092820
Holy shit I'm glad I read the comments!! Guess I'm not getting carbon fiber nylon after all
That is some fine testing. Thank you.
If you work woth carbom fiber always wear a gasmask
For me compairing carbon fiber to this "carbon fiber filament" is like comparing KFC Tenders to Mc Donald's Chicken Nuggets...On one side you have something, on the other side you have something that you scratch from the one side, then put in a blender, add some "glue", put in the shape that you want, do the magical marketing thing, and voilà...
How do you know when your filament needs to be dryed, because of too much moisture?
Bubbling while printing, cracks and pops.
I would like to see more about ASA, seems to perform good or very good in just about everything.
Really excellent test and analysis!!! 💪🏼
How about nylon filaments! Awesome dedication to testing
It's been a while since you posted this video. However, I'd be really curious to know what you think about the CarbonX CF PEEK these days?
I appreciate the professional testing, impressive! I wonder about the electrical properties such as conductivity. Have you tested that?
It's non - conductive unfortunately.
Excellent video Stefan!
I have an Ender 5 on it's way to me, and I intend to print bed supports for it with the XT-CF20 filament. I've also ordered the same nozzle from E3D. I'm thinking I can reduce thickness of the supports if I'm using C/F, do think it's feasible? Alternatively I might print the dual Z axis parts as seen on Thingiverse and go that route. Either way, it's all interesting and fun stuff!!!
Very cool. This is one of the best 3d printing channels. I have been using Sainsmart ePA-CF filament (75% nylon, 25% CF) to print drone frames. I have been using single wall thickness tube structures to achieve a balance of weight and strength. I have been getting great results, but over a few months, a very rigid frame will become quite flexible, almost floppy. Is this because the print has absorbed water? If so, how can I seal the print to avoid this? Vielen Dank! -Seppi
What are the tougher materials? Great video
They need like a prepreg type material with apoxy that gets activated once it goes through the head. Maybe there already is something like that, idk
To me it looks like the fire is it to space out to get better performance I believe the fibers have to be longer and have much more overlapWar have a fibers not in uniform direction and be able to connect multiple layers together by crossing between one layer to the layer above and below
Thing I'm wondering is why should someone use carbon fiber over normal
Thanks for sharing 😀👍
Did u use the average microscope like x400 when viewing the filament up close?
Outstanding content... Thank you so much
Thanks for the review, I tried some tests myself and I have to say I am kinda disappointed. The filament look really nice, like one of the best finishes I have ever seen, but it's mechanical properties are not really what you expect from something with carbon fiber in the name... Unless you really need the stiffness go with something else. Colorfabb makes really great filaments but I had higher hopes for this one...
I'm actually surprised that you had to adjust the extrusion percentage. Mine worked fine at the same rate as PETG. I wonder if that's got something to do with your extruder, and the rigid nature of the material? Some plastics will compress more in a strongly clamped extruder.
Well done. Nice informative video, thanks.
Could you use the bare fillament to reinforce a print made with another material by pausing the print with the other material and laying the filament on channels, and maybe a quick pass of a heatgun or even a clothes iron, to fuse the two filaments every few layers?
If carbon fibre filled PETG has such a high stiffness, what about carbon fibre filled ABS or even PC-MAX?
I just want something with crazy stiffness, decent layer adhesion, and no problems with creep. CF-XT20 certainly impresses in that regard, whilst also achieving the best surface finish on any FDM part I've seen, even bridging looks practically perfect, but surely we can do better in terms of stiffness?
P.S. I tend to print slow (15mm/s external perimetres) with XT-20 at 265 degrees for good layer-adhesion. I also use tungsten carbide nozzles, since hardened steel nozzles have horrible thermal conductivity and aren't nearly as durable.
Excellent video! thanks a lot for sharing the info. greetings!
I have the exact same filament siting on the shelf for over a year now, I have to finely print something, thanks for the test @CNC Kitchen :) btw, will you change ever the PEI on the bed on your MK2S?
Belive it or not, but I finally changed it 2 weeks ago (after these tests) 😁
Thank you!, it was bothering me already :) I was going to send you one as I still have 2 original MK2S PEI sheets :)
Mike, could you learn to spell finally?
Great work, I want to ask if using carbon fiber nylon is good to be used in a big designs that must handle 2000N load?
Do you have the STL's for the basic filament printing tests that you show early on in the video? not the ones in your patreon. Like the overhang test is a particular nice looking test model I want to try out on my monitor with some materials myself.
Now this is now cutting edge.. 😳... Polyester... 😳
Great Videos. Sounds a little like Klaus from American Dad.
I recommend the CF-PETG from 3DPrima , awesome filament and very easy to print (like the rest of the 3DPrima filaments)
Carbon fibre gets some it's strength because of the weave, with 3d printing you don't get a weave.
Thats not true. The weave on carbon fiber is aesthetic, the strength comes from parallel oriented fibers in layers below the weave. For painted CF, they don't use a weave layer.
The resin is the matrix that keep the fibers together. The strength is mainly in the fibers.
For this material, I think the fibers are too short to add significant strength.
@Okleydokley:
Yes, it IS true.
Study why alternate layers in plywood are alinged 90 degrees transverse to each other...
It's so that the plywood won't crack when high force is applied, because the wood fibers running 90 degrees opposite to the direction to the wood fibers of the layers above and/or below it prevent cracks from deepening when force starts to overcome the strength of the fibers of any single layer.
Just sayin...
better use UV glue mixed with metallic powder :), that will print stronger prints.
How about using that filament maker machine of yours to make a blend of this and polymax for example for toughness and rigidity?
review a reflective filament!
Can you make a video how to slice a temperature test tower like in your video? Using prusia slicer if possible
I know this is a pretty old video, but can you use a deeper focus lens so we can see more of what’s in your closeup shots w/o having to wait for you to manually adjust the focus to different parts?