To problem is that the German laws haven't been adjusted to the Internet&modern technology yet. It's no problem showing swastikas in Germany - as long as it's on TV or in movies. Video games or the Internet, though? Not so easy. For example, all the Indiana Jones movies were shown completely uncut in German cinemas, with a "12" rating, and regularly air on TV. The video games, however, have to cut out all swastikas if the distributor wants to sell them to anyone under the age of 18, or wants to do _any_ marketing on them.
Interesting development: As of now (August 2018), showing swastikas in German video games is *legal*. The law now includes video games. Or rather, it passed the responsibility to decide on a game-by-game basis whether a game is allowed to go into free or restricted sale (no advertising, under the counter, 18+) to the USK, an independent organization that does the rating for video and computer games in Germany. But no more blanket ban or anything. A game may recieve a low rating even if it contains "forbidden symbols".
If your not using swastikas then might as well not use the Japanese flag and the hammer sinkle symbol which more offensive hisotorical symbols and flags
+Nguyen Thang Thi Justinian and Theodora? Yeah, are you guys going to be posting Part XI/XII/etc alongside this new WWII series or go back to J/T after the WWII series is done?
+Extra Credits It may a slip of the tongue, but I wouldn't call Germany banning the swastika "white-washing history". We are very well aware of our past and we do not try to hide it. The law simply allows the government to control who uses the symbol for what purpose. That said, I'm personally in favour of laxing the law, so that video games and youtube channels for example can show it, if it is for educational purposes or historical accuracy. The problem with that is, especially regarding youtube videos, you would need a lot of people just to watch/play them all and decide whether the material is educational or propaganda.
+Aj Koorstra 1) The most common pronunciation of swastika varies by dialect, but UK and US both generally say "swa", not "schwa (ʃa)" like James says. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/swastika dictionary.reference.com/browse/swastika www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/swastika 2) Neither you nor James say "swastika" incorrectly, because English doesn't have a central defining authority and languages change over time.
+Joshua Link " Neither you nor James say "swastika" incorrectly, because English doesn't have a central defining authority and languages change over time." Thank you! Someone finally gets how language works.
Actually the law against swastikas is applied most heavily against computer games because they're not considered art. Movies usually get a pass. Indiana Jones 3 was uncensored in Germany even though it's hardly a teaching material.
Video games are....in my opinion....post art. They derived from art. They're not completely without art. But they seem like something new and different and strange worth being cautious with.
I'm pretty sure you could have used it. The 86a clearly says: (3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. Education is fine.
They probably didn't want to use incase an Idiot came across this yelled nazi and the flagged it then RUclips would be faced with the problem is this about history or not they would say yes like the first 5 time but idiots would keep on flagging it and someone there would just ban it and if it's a robot then well fhak your screwed
+Quantum Custodian In the same vein, a bunch of games either go into "art" or "education", but they apparently get banned anyway. Touchy subject, yah yah yah. I really dislike it that you can't even mention the war in Germany without people either giving you dirty looks or being ultra-apologetic. It's not like Germany was the only major power to endorse imperialism and segregation and shit. In fact, I'd be surprised if you could find one nation that could have done all of those things, but didn't. Applies even today.
+Kirk Bennion EC: *provides argument A* Fan: *provides counter-argument A which nullifies argument A* EC: "We have weighed both sides of the equation and 'decided against putting it in [our] video.' We hope you can "understand both sides of the argument." ... What?
An awful lot of people are reacting as if this was EC/EH's way of placating people who don't like the Nazi swastika. That simply isn't true; It's *illegal* to show in Germany, not impolite, and EH wants to reach the broadest audience possible to teach their history. It's not EH's call, then; Take the issue up with the German government. Realistically speaking, many German forces did use the iron cross insignia rather than the Nazi swastika; It was the SS and other party-aligned forces that prominently displayed it. While the Luftwaffe often did display the Nazi swastika due to its close organizational ties with the party, for example, Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps would often display the iron cross, even though the official seal of the unit included the Nazi swastika. German tanks in the Stalingrad theatre under Field Marshal Paulus also displayed the iron cross. So it's not historically inaccurate (except for depictions of the Luftwaffe, who aren't the focus of this series), plus it passes muster in German law. That's a win-win for everybody.
I'm so glad you guys put out a video explaining your rationale. It's great to have that sort of up-front, forward communication, and I look forward to see the new series!
well... being a German... i can tell you... there is no better way to fight Neo-Nazis then using and explaining their symbols. And yes, there was a Turkish-German Artist that read "Mein Kampf" (Hitlers Main (can i call it that?) philosophical Book) to us (and you can find it on youtube... with a german IP...)... and it was like the most efficient anti Nazie program ever... Every German History Teacher (if he ever uses an english video on this topic. I mean it's our History and you wont teach us anything new...) is way past the "OMG YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT" state... just saying. There might be 20.000 People in one country that you censor yourself for,... not worth it.
+Rick Van Staten As a german, I too am very suprised. Especially since there has been a lot more leniance towads that for educational and art purposes. However I have no idea if youtube videos with Swastikas are actually being banned for german viewers. Maybe by stupid ppl....
+Rick Van Staten It's totally fine(by law!) to show the swastika for educational, historical or comedy purposes. It's just that youtube might block the video, if some weirdo nerdo reports them. Better save than sorry. That's why it's shown in South Park, model kits, etc
+Rick Van Staten Yeah. But if it's in there for educational, some people will have to *decide* that the educational purpose is met. And those people may be lazy or stupid or incompetent: Censorship is a vocation that appeals to people with these personality types. If the goal is for accessibility over accuracy/completeness, then EC made the right call.
+1 to you guys for having the foresight to address this issue, addressing this issue with a sensitivity that may be hard for some to fathom as Americans who have not had to deal with this problem personally, and for your openness in discussing your decision to exclude this symbol. Your enthusiasm, diligence, sensitivity, and candor are all things I have come to love about this series, and Extra Credits overall.
I heard that was intentional, that Hitler tilted it forward in an effort to say "we're moving forward, beyond such archaic beliefs..." Ironically, tilting it backwards would have had an identical effect.
One can tell the crew on Extra Credits do care about teaching and history, seeing that James took time out of his busy schedule specifically to address something many probably (including myself) would not have noticed. Thanks as a history fan and keep up the good work.
The German army was not full of Nazis contrary to media portrayals. Even towards the end of the war, about 1 out of 10 Germans were ever members of the Nazi Party. In fact, the German Army High Command had a high level of contempt for Hitler because he was a commoner-most of the German officers were nobility or blue blooded.
That’s irrelevant. Party member or not, they carried out the will of the Nazi Party, just as Soviet soldiers carried out the will of the communist party.
Zack Greco But Tb didn't have anything to do with gamergate and James called him one of the "leaders" and compared him to the fucking KKK. That is wrong on so many levels. 1. It is illegal slander 2. It is factually incorrect 3. He did it while Tb was going through treatment for terminal cancer. 4. And then he wouldn't even apologize
Simple and straighforward. Very much appreciated, Extra History. You see, details like these are what makes you the best. Keep the quality content coming.
I have a hard time taking that symbol seriously, I know so many people who try to be funny or though and carve a tiny little swastika in the school desk or something. It's like a bland meme to me in those cases. Lo and behold it's the same in the comment section and people even upvote that shit. "Omg this dude commented like a billion swastikas! That's so funny and daring! must upvote!"
+olixor This is especially funny when they draw it wrong : mirror image, a mix of clockwise and anticlockwise, extra legs, miserable attempts at fixing a mistake, etc... Surprising how hard it is to draw such a simple symbol... well, maybe that people carving these anywhere they can are not among the brightest.
As a german, I appreciate your concerns very much and I would like to thank you for even considering this to be a problem. It really shows how much you care about this show and your community. As a german, I always have the feeling that nazi symbolism is something i'm not supposed to look at, even if it's educational. I am personally not offended by it, but it's like a sex scene in game of thrones: it's not what you watch it for but if someone else sees it out of context it's really awkward and you have to explain yourself.
I have no problem with you using the balkenkruez to represent the German Armed forces, as that was their symbol during WW2. It's no different then using the White Star for the US, or a Red Star for the Soviet Union, or the Tri-color of the British RAF to represent British Forces. As a matter of fact, the only branch of the armed forces that typically had swastikas emblazoned on their vehicles was the Luftwaffe who typically had the swastika painted on their tails.
This is yet another reason why I like you guys. You actually think about these issues. You discuss pros and cons. I probably wouldn't have even thought about the video being taken down if I were in your shoes, but you guys have sound reasoning. A video that can't be shown in the country that it's mostly about doesn't help the people you're talking about.
I found your channel and became a new subscriber because of the World of Tanks sponsored series. Your explanation is fresh, as is your transparency. Nice content here at this channel. Thumbs up.
I'm a Brit living in Germany (actually in a town Hitler was in as a child as it happens, just a couple of streets away... bizarrely), and last summer there was an exposition in the high street of pictures of the town throughout history. It was certainly very interesting, but they had put circular stickers over the swastikas in any of the pictures from that period. That point really got me thinking about this censorship, and what I thought about it. I think it's certainly an odd law, but it's not whitewashing as some people have said. The fact is they don't ignore it, they are well aware of their history. I understand it now, from talking to friends, as more as a insult to the symbol, that this says that the symbol doesn't have the right to be seen, than whitewashing or ignoring it. That is to say, a conscious decision that symbol doesn't deserve to be shown outside of certain contexts - it is too serious, and adult. This way it can be seen as actually quite a conscious decision to maintain the law and now i understand why it exists here. I don't say I support it or don't support it, but I understand it a bit better now. People saying that this is a government whitewashing history should take into account the scale of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is an enormous amount of space to devote to an aspect of national shame, next to the most prestigious monument to historic pride and the seat of national government.
Let me, some random German, just elaborate on this a bit more (as far as I understand it). It is *not always* forbidden to show Nazi Symbols. However, it must be done in an educating or examining/discussing way. So it is possible to print it inside a history book or show it in documentaries. Movies and other forms of art about/in/with Nazi-Germany is usually also okay as long as they don't shine a positive light on it. The problem with videogames like Wolfenstein is that German law does not accept games as Art or education material, thus Nazi symbolism is a no-go. (Please correct me if my facts are wrong but this is how I understood it so far)
Whether or not youtube is quick to ban stuff which is technically legal has nothing to do with what I wrote or why. I wanted to point out that Germany doesn't just ban the swastika to not have to be reminded about our history - as it sounded to me in this video - but actually accepts it as something that needs to be educated about. I don't really care if EC shows it or not, that's their decision.
The topic of showing nazi symbols is not that easy .. Its not simply about washing out history but promoting the symbol without the deep enough context. I mean promoting in sense of showing symbol to public, that anyone know exactly that this is symbol of Nazi, without understanding what Nazi were beside just "bad guys". Thats why its OK to show it in history context, but not on its own...
I´m sorry, but you interpreted these German laws as way to strict. Basically, swastikas can be shown for any educational or artistic purposes, and nobody at all minds swastikas in film and tv (anything from serious der Untergang and Man in the High Castle to over the top Inglorious Basterds - even frickin comedy scetches!). And I have never seen or heard of a documentary censoring the nazi symbols. The ONLY place where you will regulary find an absence of swastikas are video games, because no publisher ever had the balls to court for video games getting recognized as art, and before anyone dares to get this legal definition issue resolved publishers just go the easy and save way of doing the censorship themselves. Oh, and the shirt shop raid is about 50% urban myth and got rightfully ridiculed in German media as well. That was just one overzealous official but certainly not an actual representation of general legal policies. Also, this is youtube. I can easily view thousands of swastika-including videos here from Germany with zero trouble. I´m sure you had the best intentions in mind, but taking the nazi symbols out is absolutely 100% unneccessary. I´d really appreciate if you restored the historical symbols in future episodes. Sincerely, a German
Sure, you can view thousands of swastika including videos, but extra credits is a fairly largely known youtube channel, and with success comes youtube watching over your every move. For a lot of larger youtubers, they get stricken by the smallest of things, and sometimes countries will whole-sail ban youtube, like how turkey did for a time. I feel like they made the best decision pragmatically, albeit violating their morals, and this video certainly was poorly researched and put together
It is a pity but I assume no teacher here in germany will ever use one of your videos in his lessons simply because they don't know them and many of them are not that good in english.
+WanderingRurouni92 Opposite actually, Germany grinds that horrible thing into everyone, every person is taught of how they were once the most evil empire earth has seen in modern history, and it is made very very clear, this can happen again if you don't watch out for it,
+Thanotos Omega Oh, cool. Then I apologize for my earlier comments. What I do know if that if you do the goose step and salute, you get banned from the country. Pro-Wrestler JBL was banned when he did it during a match.
+WanderingRurouni92 You don't get "banned" from the country. You are fined and maybe arrested if you do a nazi salute in public in Germany but that is it. Also the swastika is not actually banned completely. The law that bans use of the swastika does not apply to art or to educational materials.
Woah IRL James! I'm a new fan and it was a first for me :P --- What I love about you guys so much is that you all care so much about getting the right info to us in the best way possible and this video reinforces that desire. you guys rock.
I hate how the swastika has been so much labelled a national socialist symbol, since for example, my country's (Finland) swastika comes from an ancient symbol called the Tursaansydän, our airforce still uses the Finnish swastika (which is not in a 45° angle) and we have used it 30 years before the NSDAP ever did. The Latvian airforce also used the swastika before the Germans ever did, but stopped using it after the 2nd World War.
it is very strange, because you see the swastika all over german television, in documentiers and movies about ww2. only in videogames they get cut out. so this is a strange desicion for me to be honest.
+Floyd Barber It's because videogames are not considered art in germany (like movies, books and paintings). The law that bans use of the swastika does not apply to art or to educational materials.
i know, but still strange, cause there is a videogame museum in berlin. but i never heard about a flagged youtube video because of swastika. and this video is educational.
Floyd Barber Something does not become art, just because it's in a museum. I agreee that germany should classify games as art but that is a complicated legal process that will probably not be started by the german legislative anytime soon. And yes, the video would not be taken down because it is educational. I suppose they are just making extra sure because things that should be exempt from the law have been accidentally banned in the past.
+Floyd Barber I've also never heard of a case where RUclips banned a video in Germany for showing a swastika, be it for educational reasons or not. In fact, I don't recall any RUclips banning except for GEMA copyright reasons.
They were despicable people who committed unspeakable atrocities, but the Nazis sure had some badass symbolism. The swastikas, the iron crosses, the eagles. They sure knew how to look cool.
Well... Still the swastika is thousands of years old, also, the "nazi" salute, is actually of hispanic origin and predated the roman empire. Can people just give symbols their real meaning?
+jakuara kamak Because symbols attain meaning and power through usage, and the dominant meaning of the swastika in Europe and America is associated with national socialists.
The meaning of a symbol changes throughout time and history depending on those who use it. We all see a white flag as meaning surrender, but perhaps one day in the future a white flag could mean war. Symbols change, that's just their nature. And when a symbol isn't acceptable to use anymore, it's not used.
So it it a parody symbol like a black X instead, or the iron cross? I think the iron cross is still used in Germany. In my view, it seems worse to associate the iron cross, a symbol of Germany but not strictly Nazi's, to be used to symbolize Nazi's. If it strictly represents German soldiers like Red Orchestra 2, where the lack of a swatstica helps the game's viewpoint that there is no real evil side down on the battlefield, then I think it's fine to use the iron cross. I haven't seen your series so I don't know if you are talking about the political/holocaust side, which is the Nazi side, or the battlefield side, where it doesn't matter because "Every Nazi is evil, but not every German is a Nazi." And many troops were just brainwashed by propaganda (the younger troops) or kept their mouth shut out of fear for their families. I don't know, this is just the viewpoint of an outside American that likes history. To relate the issue to my country, it may be something like replacing the confederate flag with the bald eagle, which insults the bald eagle. I'm not judging you guys, I understand either way you don't win, and I still haven't seen the video so maybe you didn't use the iron cross.
I feel that you've maybe missed that it can also make your videos MORE accessible to Jewish and Romani people who want to watch those videos. Many of us have inherited generational trauma from the Holocaust and many of us find the image of the swastika itself very triggering. I know people who, upon seeing a swastika, feel overcome with panic and nausea. So while I understand your concern with "whitewashing" history, there is also part of me that wishes people didn't feel the need to shove the horrors of the Holocaust and its imagery in the faces of the descendants of the main targets of genocide. So if it helps at all, James, please know that you are actually helping to make the videos more accessible for the two groups most affected by the Holocaust.
Guys! There is no such law in Germany. There are two specific parts in the german law, which discuss the symbolism of the national socialism during the 1930s and 1940s. § 86 StGB only states, that no propaganda material should be destributed as it's original pupose but can be shown for lucture and studies. § 130 Abs. 3 StGb states, that you should not propagate the teachings of the NSDAP or deny their atrocities. But there is simply no law against showing the swastika. At this point, it's a medie myth.
It does exist, whenever it comes to games and youtube. Various videos showing the Swastika which can be even considered remotely pro-nazi are unviewable in Germany out of youtube's fear of being banned in germany like they were in countries like turkey, and various videogames were also censored in germany because of this.
I have read many of the comments here and I do understand both points of view. I agree not showing the Swastika in this series is understandable to avoid the legal hassles that could arise from it. I am also very happy that instead of letting this discussion to arise in the comments of the actual videos, it was great that EC had an open discussion here. However I do wish the Swastika wan't such a taboo. For many of the reasons that were said here such as historical accuracy, freedom of speech, and etc. One point I did not see was its hypocritical, why is it that the Swastika is banned/scorned when the Hammer and Sickle isn't. I have many friends and a few family members who suffered at the hands of Communist regimes. If you were to list the numerous war crimes that Communist regimes have committed. People either didn't know or they immediately assume your talking about the Axis powers during WW2. Even before, during, and after the Soviet Union slaughter Billions of People including more Jews then during the Holocaust. I know you could argue they had more time, but how does that make it any less horrifying. I have spoken, listen, and seen many people who still can tell of the horrors they suffered at the hand of Communism. Many understandably can't even bear to look at the symbols of Communism with out being overwhelmed. So why let one hateful symbol be shown when another cannot? I would like to know peoples opinion in this as well in the comments of this video. I believe that both should be shown, because freedom of speech and expression is more beneficial then the hateful things we might here now and again. For the reason my Grandfather told to me "Extremism in any shape or form (political, religious, etc) is a danger to all societies, and should be met in open forums to be denounced. Then to just forbid it so it can then fester in the dark until it is to late." A great historical example was the Nazi march in Skokie in 1977, that even thou the Nazi's were aloud to march with the Swastika held high a larger and more diverse group peacefully marched in opposition of them. This helped people of many different looks and beliefs come together against hate. That to me is the best benefit of letting these horrible speeches and symbols be in the open, so people can see it and stand together against such things.
I think it would be interesting to make an episode on symbols intended to be forgotten, including, but not limited to the swastika, hammer and sicle and the "rising sun" japanese flag. I am sure there are more around the world but they don't get much attention and the crimes they symbolise are starting to be forgotten. BTW, Japanese Ministry of tourism changed the official map symbol for temple from a swastika to a pagoda in 2015, amongst many preparations for the Olimpics
. Good choice. Better to make this concession and substitute a less 'Nazi' symbol to avoid being banned, than to hold to rigid authenticity on a silly stand of principle, and then have your extremely educationally valuable series not available to a large number of people. Thank you for explaining this issue, and for doing it in the first place.
As a German I have to say: You would have had no problems, if you had decided to show the swastika. The law clearly states that it is ok to show the symbol for educational reasons, which is clearly given in your case. Back in school the swastika frequently showed up in history classes and every movie with a historical setting is free to use the accurate symbol (even if it's more about entertainment than education). The law (or at least the interpretation thereof that I was taught) is more about the intention for showing the symbol. Things that are pursued are for example: Waving a flag with the swastika, wearing it on clothes (yes, even if it's crossed out) or in general displaying it as a statement of your mindset. The only reason I can think of for you to do this, are weird youtube policies. If that is the case, please state that directly next time, because there are now lots of people in the comments who think Germany is a weird censorship state.
Gonna be straight here. this is a dumb law. Germany, your not using the Nazi Symbol as a joke, your using it to *Teach fucking history* , what, are you just gonna try to say "Oh uh, the Nazi symbol is completely pointless except it's not.", that's bullshit. Edit: note this is coming from someone who's grandfather was in the air force, so I'm not trying to downplay world war II's effects on the world or some shit, but you SHOULD NEVER censor something for the purpose of making a few people happy, sometimes happiness isn't always a good thing.
The thing is, this law is not meant as whitewashing undesirable history. Hear mehr out : Right extremist groups, who intend/intended to abolish the liberal-democratic foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany (like the SRP, ANS or Wiking-jugend) are prohibited. The StGB § 86a outlaws the symbols used by these people. So, not the Hakenkreuz used by the NSDAP is prohibited (those are the one's who are allowed to be used in educational, historical or art-settings), but the symbols used by anticonstitutional groups in recent history.
The thing is, this law is not meant as whitewashing undesirable history. Hear mehr out : Right extremist groups, who intend/intended to abolish the liberal-democratic foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany (like the SRP, ANS or Wiking-jugend) are prohibited. The StGB § 86a outlaws the symbols used by these people. So, not the Hakenkreuz used by the NSDAP is prohibited (those are the one's who are allowed to be used in educational, historical or art-settings), but the symbols used by anticonstitutional groups in recent history.
Second: Look up the fall of the Weimarer Republik. The prohibition of those anticonstitutional groups and - in extension their symbols - are meant to prevent a "re-enactment", that something like this could happened again.
Alright, but like most bills with good meaning, there's usually a dark side. so thus, now germany has to whitewash history merely because of this law. and ya know what, really, this isn't going to stop outlaws from hanging up confederate or soviet or third reich flags. lets be honest here *since when the fuck did outlaws obey the fucking law?*
+(InsertNameHere) The law was made by the allied in an effort to get rid of nazis. And germany is forgetting nothing about the past, as evident simply by the amount of anti-germanism you get pushed on you in school. The whole germany is bad, be aware not to repeat it, is a repeating theme in german history lessons.
Honestly I think that the fact that the swastika is given such a bad image now is saddening. I It originated long before hitler and was a symbol of life and peace and prosperity. I don't agree with anything hitler believed in, but the swastika should not have a permanent bad image because of one wrongful use of it.
+Nicholas Ledermann If it makes you feel any better, it only really has a bad meaning here in the west. In Japan, for example, some airsoft fans even have schutstaffel armbands just because they think it looks cool.
Nah, Because plenty of countries outside of the west use it as a religious symbol, and it's a cultural symbol for various culture groups, from ancient norse runes to some aztec architecture , Hindu Mandirs, Mosques, Early christian churches in Ethiopia... even certain Synagogues that have been long long abandoned. In Asia especially, it's still a symbol for good luck. It's like the Pentacle/Pentagram, thousands of years of benign usage and then suddenly some dickhead nazis and or satanists use it and now it's hated.
Good on you guys. I understand how difficult of a decision it must have been. I agree with you that we should not censure or shy away from the past but in this case, being able to reach German audiences with the upcoming series at the cost of partial self censure may be worth it. The educational value in your series makes it worth it. I look forward to watching it.
+Extra Credits about the flag 3:16 in the original video(the battle of kursk 1). could first only find that flag in the game world of tanks (also a simmular but diffrent flag was created by Zbigniev.). When i searched some more it seemed the flag was normal to use in games to avoid swasticas. Is this a clever nood to the game industry, or was this flag actually used? The fact that it was among the top picture of searches for "nazi flag without swastica", makes me suspicius. It also looks simmular to the Reichskriegsflagge 1938-1945 (National war flag). With all this i would like to ask the source of this flag.
Actually its normal to show the Swastika in Germany in documentaries and movies as long as it is not in a glorifying way. I dont think it would have been a problem to show it in your series. But i can understand your decision and its good that you made a video about it.
Hey James, I'm glad you made the decision to not show the swastika just in case German (and incidentally, Austrian) audiences wouldn't be able to watch your videos. One suggestion though - if you guys have trouble pronouncing the German names of things (Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc.), it might be a good idea to just skip doing that and call them "German army", and so on. As someone who's native to the German language, I had to listen to some parts a couple of times to make out what word exactly you guys were referring to. It's serving nobody if the pronunciation is off the mark entirely.
That educational exception from the Swaztika ban should actually apply here, but RUclips might block the video in Germany just to make sure. Thanks from a german viewer. :)
I thought it was illegal to deny anything about the Nazis because the Nazis themselves denied history and Germany wanted to A) Learn from history and B) Separate themselves from Nazi Germany.
fun fact German army vehicles didn't have swastikas anywhere on them with the exception of airborne identifier panels (you stick them on top of the tank so your guys know who not to drop bombs on) however Finland did have swastikas on very prominently displayed on there tanks and planes.
i am LOVING that way of pronouncing swastika. i'm adopting that, as soon as i can get enough practice in to make it roll off my tongue. thank you for a really excellent variant pronunciation!
Well, it is unfortunate that people still cannot talk and use all of the information of history, but I'm glad you took a stance of doing this so it could reach more globally. Thank you James, and everyone of the Extra Credits team old and new for continuing to bring us Extra History.
I hope this message will come across the internet and that people understand: The Swastika wasn't the Symbol for German Millitary. It was the symbol of one of their political groups, which was in control when the War happened. None of the soldiers, aircraft or tanks have the Swastika on them, but rather the Iron Cross. According to an historian friend of mine there was one Aircraft that did have the Swastika on it, but this aircraft was produced before the war even began and holds no purpose but aesthetics.
As a German I feel like I have to defend my countries laws here. To be clear: The law states that the swastika can not be shown in public places, as it is seen as scandalization, which should be understandable. However, usually context is absolutely taken into consideration. Showing a swastika for the sake of historic accuracy or if it's used for anti-Nazi messaging, is absolutely allowed and even protected. There are so many people having symbols like a fist destroying a swastika as pins on their backpacks or even tattooed on their arms and nobody makes a fuss. I even once ran into a film set with Swastikas everywhere. That was scary, but totally allowed. Also every german learns about Nazi Germany in school. As a kid I had history books that showed swastikas. It's not like we're trying to forget this time. This has has absolutely nothing to do with white-washing. We're just insanely traumatized and try to cope with it.
Using the swastika should really depend on the context. In the situation of this EH series the Balkenkreuz is appropriate as it is the symbol of the Heer, it also helps emphasise that the average German soldier wasn't a Nazi.
What I really find distrubing is the lack of informed comments portayed here; this law isn't about censoring history or "political correctness". Firstly the article talked about in the video doesn't ban the Swastika specifically. It bans every unconstutional Symbol (e.g. Hitler salute) and it mostly serves to actually hurt Neo-Nazis or groups of people who glorify the Nazi-Era since it does not, in any way, harm education about the subject. Secondly this very law wasn't even put in place when Germany was a "free" nation (Germany was occupied by the US, Britain, France and the UdSSR).
I appreciate you weighing historical accuracy against accessibility of your videos, and also wanna thank you for settling on having the video be accessible in Germany. As for the law prohibiting the use of the swastika.. Being German, I understand the reasoning (and validity in the *German* cultural context) of the ban. At the same time, I fully understand how this and some other laws seems completely absurd to people from other nations, especially the US - and it's a dilemma you *have* to understand from both sides, because there is *no* way to solve it! I highly appreciate the idea of free speech and I'm in the camp of "I will fight for your right of free speech, even if I don't agree with your position"; and at the very same time, there is no way I could see Germany without banning the use of the swastika or forbidding the denial of Auschwitz. I don't even think it is.. a cultural thing to the degree of Germans thinking only written laws could put order to things, when just a common ethical understanding did suffice - in fact, I've seen this kind of sentiment in American culture a lot. But still it seems to me that you do need to have grown up here to understand the importance of anti-Nazi laws. For instance, ExistentialOcto rightfully mentioned that censoring the swastika could make it more exotic and even appealing to young people. However, it is not like German children and juveniles aren't exposed to the swastika - in fact they are, quite often, but it is usually in historic documents, in art, or in news reports on neo-Nazi groups (though the rarely adorn themselves with the swastika in public, as that would allow the state to at least take them into custody for the night). The restriction of the usage does give the swastika a special nimbus, but it's the nimbus of injustice, of terror, and - if the teachers or artists do their job especially well - the nimbus of *destruction* of the fatherland (that was, in addition to all the obivous horros against the persecuted and murdered millions, the second big tragedy the Third Reich inflicted upon us.. at least in my opinion). All that being said, I cannot wholeheartedly agree with the details of those respective laws. I don't think it should be a criminal offense to use a swastika in a way that is indesputably *against* the ideology it represents - as was the case where it was put on buttons and crossed out.. I do grant the persecuters the benefit of the doubt that they in fact didn't want the swastika to be "a common sight, albeit behind a red bar", and that it was not acceptable to make money of it; I would have, however, first contacted the producer / shop / who ever was in charge, and requested them to have those buttons come in a very limited edition, so they could be ruled as an artful expression. Also, I'm a bit disturbed that a more recent symbol of a red fist shattering a swastika (the symbol has splinter broken of it, but is still recognizable), seems to be completely unaffected by the ban. The ban on denying the Holocaust, too, is something I quarrel with in my heart - though I have to admit that here it seems the application of the law is handled fairly reasonable. I wouldn't want actual historical research be hindered, just because someone found that the number of people murdered was to be 10% lower, and that in turn would be considered denying the holocaust; also I think it is technically a fair statement to say "I wasn't there, I don't know if it happened", although this argument *has* been (maliciously) used by various groups, and at least from a ethical stand point (though maybe not a legal one) I don't condone using it just so they can hurt and embarrass Holocaust survivers and their families (and mainstream historians).
On a related note: German law does *not* forbid questioning Germany's supposed Alleinschuld ("exclusive guilt", or exclusive responsibility) for WW1. I've never really been a big supporter of this proposition, and the more I learned of the past two years (from, amongst others, your videos ^-^), the more I think that Germany in fact wasn't the single nation responsible - even though it did take a big part in paving the way for the War. I notived that for the few people I've talked to or heard about talking about this topic, older German people tend to defend the proposition of Germany's exclusive responsibility, while younger people and non-Germans more readily accept a shared responsibility. I assume there is a common incentive in older Germans to stand by the exclusive responsibility, because they have lived through de-Nazi-fication, and since Hitler and his helpers did promote themselves on the basis that the treaty of Versaille was inacceptable, a de-Nazi-fied person can't easily reject the exclusive responsibility without feeling like they'd thus justify what happened in the Third Reich. Supposedly, this kind of reasoning, and the shame associated with the various "guilts" of the German people (many of them undeniable, but some, like the Alleinschuld, definitely questionable), also play vital roles in the original creation, as well as the contemporary application of anti-swastika and anti-defamation laws. It saddens me a bit, because for one I don't see a reasonable way to stand by the Alleinschuld without deliberate reductionism, and secondly I don't think opposing the Alleinschuld proposition could suddenly give any justification for the Holocaust and all the terrible things that happened in the Third Reich.
I was wondering why there was an Iron Cross (German army) and Hammer & Sickle (Communism)but no swastika (Nazism) in your thumbnail about Nazi symbols. You definitely were thinking of the bigger picture here, however, made a sound decision based on sound reasoning. Nice one James/Extra Credits
+ultraboy222 You'd be wrong. I can only speak for Poland, but I'm sure it goes for many other countries. Here we have both swastika and hammer and sickle banned. It isn't Germany level paranoia though, so we can use it for educational and historical accuracy purposes. It also isn't very well enforced as long as you don't glorify nazism or stalinism.
Le Rapace Yes, but it's pretty strange here, as communist regime is considered at least as bad as nazis, but there is surprising amount of people (usually old ones) that feel nostalgic about it, going as far as saying, that it was better during communism (of course it wasn't). I used stalinism incorrectly, but banning hammer and sickle has more to do with communist regime's crimes rather than communism itself. That's what I meant.
Krzysztof Kowalski Anyway, hammer and sickle isn't a communist symbol, it's an USSR symbol (who was never really communist), to be honest, even if i dislike the USSR, i prefer the Gorbatchev's russia than the Putin's russia and Yugoslavia was better than what the Balkan is today. But for a country like Poland, yes, it's clear the communist dictatorship was really worse.
Le Rapace Even USSR government didn't really call themselves communist. It was a "socialist country, building communism" (while Poland was still "building socialism"). The fact, that hammer and sickle is USSR symbol and not communist is indeed easy to forget it also means that it is the symbol, that should be remembered for all those crimes. We didn't get the "hardcore" version of socialism, that USSR did, but our communist party was as messed up as Soviet was (as far as atrocities go).
Good move, the way you did it, explaining your choice in this video is more educative I believe, no matter your choice and your opinion, you explained it and this to me is the most important. Thank you for keeping this serie as awesome as it is :)
I don't actually think you guys would have gotten into trouble over showing the swastika in this context, because our German laws explicitly allow showing these symbols for purposes of art, science, or historical reporting. But I think I know where you are coming from and that's your very own main expertise: video games. In Germany video games are not (officially) seen as a form of art, so games like Wolfenstein or South Park the Stick of Truth need to be either censored or aren't allowed to be sold. But an educational video should be totally fine. I mean nobody ever even thought of banning Raiders of the Lost Ark or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade... Other than that, I completly understand your caution and wanted to thank you for this absolutely exemplary web series. Keep up the great work.
To problem is that the German laws haven't been adjusted to the Internet&modern technology yet. It's no problem showing swastikas in Germany - as long as it's on TV or in movies. Video games or the Internet, though? Not so easy.
For example, all the Indiana Jones movies were shown completely uncut in German cinemas, with a "12" rating, and regularly air on TV. The video games, however, have to cut out all swastikas if the distributor wants to sell them to anyone under the age of 18, or wants to do _any_ marketing on them.
Interesting development: As of now (August 2018), showing swastikas in German video games is *legal*. The law now includes video games. Or rather, it passed the responsibility to decide on a game-by-game basis whether a game is allowed to go into free or restricted sale (no advertising, under the counter, 18+) to the USK, an independent organization that does the rating for video and computer games in Germany. But no more blanket ban or anything. A game may recieve a low rating even if it contains "forbidden symbols".
I think it's only when done in a historical context.
the zwashhhhhtika
had to scroll way down to see this!
Garry and now it's the sixth
@@kiddo6393 now it’s the first
James explains why World War II series on Extra History won't use the swastika of Nazi Germany.
Just asking, When will J and T come back
If your not using swastikas then might as well not use the Japanese flag and the hammer sinkle symbol which more offensive hisotorical symbols and flags
+Nguyen Thang Thi Justinian and Theodora? Yeah, are you guys going to be posting Part XI/XII/etc alongside this new WWII series or go back to J/T after the WWII series is done?
+Extra Credits It may a slip of the tongue, but I wouldn't call Germany banning the swastika "white-washing history". We are very well aware of our past and we do not try to hide it. The law simply allows the government to control who uses the symbol for what purpose.
That said, I'm personally in favour of laxing the law, so that video games and youtube channels for example can show it, if it is for educational purposes or historical accuracy. The problem with that is, especially regarding youtube videos, you would need a lot of people just to watch/play them all and decide whether the material is educational or propaganda.
Coulda replaced the symbol with the Red Ribbon Army symbol. haha
I learned two things 1) I've been pronouncing swastika incorrectly, and 2) the correct one sounds stupid AF
+Aj Koorstra 1) The most common pronunciation of swastika varies by dialect, but UK and US both generally say "swa", not "schwa (ʃa)" like James says. www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/swastika dictionary.reference.com/browse/swastika www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/swastika
2) Neither you nor James say "swastika" incorrectly, because English doesn't have a central defining authority and languages change over time.
Joshua Link
dropping some truth bombs on me. Appreciated
+Aj Koorstra And I learned what "Hakenkreuz" is in English ;)
+Joshua Link " Neither you nor James say "swastika" incorrectly, because English doesn't have a central defining authority and languages change over time."
Thank you! Someone finally gets how language works.
+Malos Kain I always pronounce it "Swass-Tick-Ah"
Actually the law against swastikas is applied most heavily against computer games because they're not considered art. Movies usually get a pass. Indiana Jones 3 was uncensored in Germany even though it's hardly a teaching material.
Yeah. I remember reading that the Wolfenstein game is heavily censored in Germany. The swastika.
Video games are....in my opinion....post art. They derived from art. They're not completely without art. But they seem like something new and different and strange worth being cautious with.
I'm pretty sure you could have used it. The 86a clearly says:
(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes.
Education is fine.
They had a debate about using it. They decided against putting it in their videos. I can understand both sides of the argument.
+Quantum Custodian RUclips systems that enforce laws aren't good at applying them with nuance. Too much of a hassle probably.
They probably didn't want to use incase an Idiot came across this yelled nazi and the flagged it then RUclips would be faced with the problem is this about history or not they would say yes like the first 5 time but idiots would keep on flagging it and someone there would just ban it and if it's a robot then well fhak your screwed
+Quantum Custodian In the same vein, a bunch of games either go into "art" or "education", but they apparently get banned anyway. Touchy subject, yah yah yah. I really dislike it that you can't even mention the war in Germany without people either giving you dirty looks or being ultra-apologetic.
It's not like Germany was the only major power to endorse imperialism and segregation and shit. In fact, I'd be surprised if you could find one nation that could have done all of those things, but didn't. Applies even today.
+Kirk Bennion
EC: *provides argument A*
Fan: *provides counter-argument A which nullifies argument A*
EC: "We have weighed both sides of the equation and 'decided against putting it in [our] video.' We hope you can "understand both sides of the argument."
...
What?
An awful lot of people are reacting as if this was EC/EH's way of placating people who don't like the Nazi swastika. That simply isn't true; It's *illegal* to show in Germany, not impolite, and EH wants to reach the broadest audience possible to teach their history. It's not EH's call, then; Take the issue up with the German government.
Realistically speaking, many German forces did use the iron cross insignia rather than the Nazi swastika; It was the SS and other party-aligned forces that prominently displayed it. While the Luftwaffe often did display the Nazi swastika due to its close organizational ties with the party, for example, Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps would often display the iron cross, even though the official seal of the unit included the Nazi swastika. German tanks in the Stalingrad theatre under Field Marshal Paulus also displayed the iron cross.
So it's not historically inaccurate (except for depictions of the Luftwaffe, who aren't the focus of this series), plus it passes muster in German law. That's a win-win for everybody.
I'm so glad you guys put out a video explaining your rationale. It's great to have that sort of up-front, forward communication, and I look forward to see the new series!
well... being a German... i can tell you... there is no better way to fight Neo-Nazis then using and explaining their symbols. And yes, there was a Turkish-German Artist that read "Mein Kampf" (Hitlers Main (can i call it that?) philosophical Book) to us (and you can find it on youtube... with a german IP...)... and it was like the most efficient anti Nazie program ever...
Every German History Teacher (if he ever uses an english video on this topic. I mean it's our History and you wont teach us anything new...) is way past the "OMG YOU CAN'T SHOW THAT" state... just saying. There might be 20.000 People in one country that you censor yourself for,... not worth it.
Thanks for not getting your channel blocked, it just makes it all the easier to watch you guys. :)
isn't this educational? Then it is allowed, isn't it?
+Rick Van Staten As he said in the video, it is allowed but they didn't want to take their chances.
+Rick Van Staten As a german, I too am very suprised. Especially since there has been a lot more leniance towads that for educational and art purposes. However I have no idea if youtube videos with Swastikas are actually being banned for german viewers. Maybe by stupid ppl....
+cornet6 if its allowed, then they should fight for the right to show it
+Rick Van Staten It's totally fine(by law!) to show the swastika for educational, historical or comedy purposes. It's just that youtube might block the video, if some weirdo nerdo reports them. Better save than sorry.
That's why it's shown in South Park, model kits, etc
+Rick Van Staten Yeah. But if it's in there for educational, some people will have to *decide* that the educational purpose is met. And those people may be lazy or stupid or incompetent: Censorship is a vocation that appeals to people with these personality types.
If the goal is for accessibility over accuracy/completeness, then EC made the right call.
+1 to you guys for having the foresight to address this issue, addressing this issue with a sensitivity that may be hard for some to fathom as Americans who have not had to deal with this problem personally, and for your openness in discussing your decision to exclude this symbol. Your enthusiasm, diligence, sensitivity, and candor are all things I have come to love about this series, and Extra Credits overall.
It is a religious symbol for us Hinduis.
The Nazi Swastika is tilted. The Hindu one is not.
So yes and no.
Dreconit For German Law its irrelevant.
I find it really interesting how the same symbol means completely different things in different cultures with very little relations to each other.
I heard that was intentional, that Hitler tilted it forward in an effort to say "we're moving forward, beyond such archaic beliefs..." Ironically, tilting it backwards would have had an identical effect.
It was also the old finmish airforce symbol
One can tell the crew on Extra Credits do care about teaching and history, seeing that James took time out of his busy schedule specifically to address something many probably (including myself) would not have noticed. Thanks as a history fan and keep up the good work.
I was distracted by the background; Dune is amazing and more people need to read it. That is all.
The Genesis copy of Shadowrun doesn't hurt either.
+Jake Pillsbury I was staring at the Cthulhu statuette.
+Jake Pillsbury I was looking at the Divine Comedy myself...
Personally, I was distracted by James' epic coat.
I was staring at the box of polyhedral dice on the far right.
My thoughts on the law aside, I appreciate you telling us and understand.
"Why we don't use the swastika"
*demonetization flashbacks*
The German army was not full of Nazis contrary to media portrayals. Even towards the end of the war, about 1 out of 10 Germans were ever members of the Nazi Party. In fact, the German Army High Command had a high level of contempt for Hitler because he was a commoner-most of the German officers were nobility or blue blooded.
That’s irrelevant. Party member or not, they carried out the will of the Nazi Party, just as Soviet soldiers carried out the will of the communist party.
@@Mrpastry909 yeah Id carry out the will of any party that's putting a gun against my head.
I suppose that seems fair. The 51 dislikes on this video are probably more due to the mic quality than disagreement.
+grfrjiglstan Nah I just dislike all videos that features James
+Eggdrasil Warthog why?
Zack Greco Look up the time he slandered Totalbiscuit and then refused to give him apology even though he had literately all of his "facts" wrong
Eggdrasil Warthog meh, gamergate stuff ? Fuck everyone involved on both sides, i just forgot it ever happened, very shitty discussion.
Zack Greco But Tb didn't have anything to do with gamergate and James called him one of the "leaders" and compared him to the fucking KKK. That is wrong on so many levels.
1. It is illegal slander
2. It is factually incorrect
3. He did it while Tb was going through treatment for terminal cancer.
4. And then he wouldn't even apologize
Simple and straighforward. Very much appreciated, Extra History. You see, details like these are what makes you the best. Keep the quality content coming.
Is it just me, or did half the people in the comments not bother actually watching the video?
I appreciate that you came down on the side of caution so that the videos could serve a wider audience.
I love how emotional you get James about these historical facts it just makes a show for me to know how you are about your facts
you guys give such wonderful time and attention to your fans. it's very refreshing
I have a hard time taking that symbol seriously, I know so many people who try to be funny or though and carve a tiny little swastika in the school desk or something. It's like a bland meme to me in those cases.
Lo and behold it's the same in the comment section and people even upvote that shit. "Omg this dude commented like a billion swastikas! That's so funny and daring! must upvote!"
+olixor This is especially funny when they draw it wrong : mirror image, a mix of clockwise and anticlockwise, extra legs, miserable attempts at fixing a mistake, etc...
Surprising how hard it is to draw such a simple symbol... well, maybe that people carving these anywhere they can are not among the brightest.
gubx42 "Not the brightest" hah, yeah that's usually the case.
Thank you, guys! Really appreciate it. Would've been a bummer not being able to watch this video series for me.
As a german, I appreciate your concerns very much and I would like to thank you for even considering this to be a problem. It really shows how much you care about this show and your community.
As a german, I always have the feeling that nazi symbolism is something i'm not supposed to look at, even if it's educational. I am personally not offended by it, but it's like a sex scene in game of thrones: it's not what you watch it for but if someone else sees it out of context it's really awkward and you have to explain yourself.
I have no problem with you using the balkenkruez to represent the German Armed forces, as that was their symbol during WW2. It's no different then using the White Star for the US, or a Red Star for the Soviet Union, or the Tri-color of the British RAF to represent British Forces.
As a matter of fact, the only branch of the armed forces that typically had swastikas emblazoned on their vehicles was the Luftwaffe who typically had the swastika painted on their tails.
Well, why not do both? Have a censored version for Germany, and an uncensored version for everyone else?
This is yet another reason why I like you guys. You actually think about these issues. You discuss pros and cons. I probably wouldn't have even thought about the video being taken down if I were in your shoes, but you guys have sound reasoning. A video that can't be shown in the country that it's mostly about doesn't help the people you're talking about.
lol no teachers in germany are going to use your videos
I found your channel and became a new subscriber because of the World of Tanks sponsored series. Your explanation is fresh, as is your transparency. Nice content here at this channel. Thumbs up.
2016: You can't solve anything by denying a symbol
2019: Boom, you are a racist.
Well, there are people who have that flag for shameful things. For example, alt-rightists.
I'm a Brit living in Germany (actually in a town Hitler was in as a child as it happens, just a couple of streets away... bizarrely), and last summer there was an exposition in the high street of pictures of the town throughout history. It was certainly very interesting, but they had put circular stickers over the swastikas in any of the pictures from that period. That point really got me thinking about this censorship, and what I thought about it.
I think it's certainly an odd law, but it's not whitewashing as some people have said. The fact is they don't ignore it, they are well aware of their history. I understand it now, from talking to friends, as more as a insult to the symbol, that this says that the symbol doesn't have the right to be seen, than whitewashing or ignoring it. That is to say, a conscious decision that symbol doesn't deserve to be shown outside of certain contexts - it is too serious, and adult. This way it can be seen as actually quite a conscious decision to maintain the law and now i understand why it exists here. I don't say I support it or don't support it, but I understand it a bit better now.
People saying that this is a government whitewashing history should take into account the scale of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe, which is an enormous amount of space to devote to an aspect of national shame, next to the most prestigious monument to historic pride and the seat of national government.
Let me, some random German, just elaborate on this a bit more (as far as I understand it). It is *not always* forbidden to show Nazi Symbols. However, it must be done in an educating or examining/discussing way. So it is possible to print it inside a history book or show it in documentaries. Movies and other forms of art about/in/with Nazi-Germany is usually also okay as long as they don't shine a positive light on it. The problem with videogames like Wolfenstein is that German law does not accept games as Art or education material, thus Nazi symbolism is a no-go.
(Please correct me if my facts are wrong but this is how I understood it so far)
+Cloud Seeker Really? I've never had a problem. Can you tell me about an educational video I can't see in Germany because there's a swastika in it?
Whether or not youtube is quick to ban stuff which is technically legal has nothing to do with what I wrote or why. I wanted to point out that Germany doesn't just ban the swastika to not have to be reminded about our history - as it sounded to me in this video - but actually accepts it as something that needs to be educated about.
I don't really care if EC shows it or not, that's their decision.
German law is so ridiculous. Glad Japan never suffered the same self hate and self ridicule the Germans had to inflict on themselves.
The topic of showing nazi symbols is not that easy .. Its not simply about washing out history but promoting the symbol without the deep enough context. I mean promoting in sense of showing symbol to public, that anyone know exactly that this is symbol of Nazi, without understanding what Nazi were beside just "bad guys". Thats why its OK to show it in history context, but not on its own...
I´m sorry, but you interpreted these German laws as way to strict. Basically, swastikas can be shown for any educational or artistic purposes, and nobody at all minds swastikas in film and tv (anything from serious der Untergang and Man in the High Castle to over the top Inglorious Basterds - even frickin comedy scetches!). And I have never seen or heard of a documentary censoring the nazi symbols. The ONLY place where you will regulary find an absence of swastikas are video games, because no publisher ever had the balls to court for video games getting recognized as art, and before anyone dares to get this legal definition issue resolved publishers just go the easy and save way of doing the censorship themselves.
Oh, and the shirt shop raid is about 50% urban myth and got rightfully ridiculed in German media as well. That was just one overzealous official but certainly not an actual representation of general legal policies.
Also, this is youtube. I can easily view thousands of swastika-including videos here from Germany with zero trouble. I´m sure you had the best intentions in mind, but taking the nazi symbols out is absolutely 100% unneccessary. I´d really appreciate if you restored the historical symbols in future episodes.
Sincerely,
a German
Sure, you can view thousands of swastika including videos, but extra credits is a fairly largely known youtube channel, and with success comes youtube watching over your every move. For a lot of larger youtubers, they get stricken by the smallest of things, and sometimes countries will whole-sail ban youtube, like how turkey did for a time. I feel like they made the best decision pragmatically, albeit violating their morals, and this video certainly was poorly researched and put together
It is a pity but I assume no teacher here in germany will ever use one of your videos in his lessons simply because they don't know them and many of them are not that good in english.
Heh. Yeah, that ugly part of our history? That never happened. Never.
+WanderingRurouni92 Opposite actually, Germany grinds that horrible thing into everyone, every person is taught of how they were once the most evil empire earth has seen in modern history, and it is made very very clear, this can happen again if you don't watch out for it,
+Thanotos Omega and ironicly they enforce it by making an absolutely evil law that limits freedom of speach
+Thanotos Omega Oh, cool. Then I apologize for my earlier comments. What I do know if that if you do the goose step and salute, you get banned from the country. Pro-Wrestler JBL was banned when he did it during a match.
+WanderingRurouni92 You don't get "banned" from the country. You are fined and maybe arrested if you do a nazi salute in public in Germany but that is it. Also the swastika is not actually banned completely. The law that bans use of the swastika does not apply to art or to educational materials.
ruckasnucka95 Well that is a lie seeing since it is banned from games
Woah IRL James! I'm a new fan and it was a first for me :P --- What I love about you guys so much is that you all care so much about getting the right info to us in the best way possible and this video reinforces that desire. you guys rock.
"shwashtika" wtf?
I hate how the swastika has been so much labelled a national socialist symbol, since for example, my country's (Finland) swastika comes from an ancient symbol called the Tursaansydän, our airforce still uses the Finnish swastika (which is not in a 45° angle) and we have used it 30 years before the NSDAP ever did.
The Latvian airforce also used the swastika before the Germans ever did, but stopped using it after the 2nd World War.
it is very strange, because you see the swastika all over german television, in documentiers and movies about ww2. only in videogames they get cut out. so this is a strange desicion for me to be honest.
+Floyd Barber It's because videogames are not considered art in germany
(like movies, books and paintings). The law that bans use of the
swastika does not apply to art or to educational materials.
i know, but still strange, cause there is a videogame museum in berlin. but i never heard about a flagged youtube video because of swastika. and this video is educational.
Floyd Barber
Something does not become art, just because it's in a museum. I agreee that germany should classify games as art but that is a complicated legal process that will probably not be started by the german legislative anytime soon. And yes, the video would not be taken down because it is educational. I suppose they are just making extra sure because things that should be exempt from the law have been accidentally banned in the past.
+Floyd Barber I've also never heard of a case where RUclips banned a video in Germany for showing a swastika, be it for educational reasons or not. In fact, I don't recall any RUclips banning except for GEMA copyright reasons.
They were despicable people who committed unspeakable atrocities, but the Nazis sure had some badass symbolism. The swastikas, the iron crosses, the eagles. They sure knew how to look cool.
Well... Still the swastika is thousands of years old, also, the "nazi" salute, is actually of hispanic origin and predated the roman empire. Can people just give symbols their real meaning?
But then, Why does everyone censor them?
+jakuara kamak
Because symbols attain meaning and power through usage, and the dominant meaning of the swastika in Europe and America is associated with national socialists.
The meaning of a symbol changes throughout time and history depending on those who use it. We all see a white flag as meaning surrender, but perhaps one day in the future a white flag could mean war. Symbols change, that's just their nature. And when a symbol isn't acceptable to use anymore, it's not used.
Thank you for looking out for us, and for explaining your reasons.
Thanks ^^ would have been a pain in the arse not being able to watch your videos.
An Extra History series on WWII, I'm excited for this even moreso than usual
So it it a parody symbol like a black X instead, or the iron cross? I think the iron cross is still used in Germany. In my view, it seems worse to associate the iron cross, a symbol of Germany but not strictly Nazi's, to be used to symbolize Nazi's. If it strictly represents German soldiers like Red Orchestra 2, where the lack of a swatstica helps the game's viewpoint that there is no real evil side down on the battlefield, then I think it's fine to use the iron cross. I haven't seen your series so I don't know if you are talking about the political/holocaust side, which is the Nazi side, or the battlefield side, where it doesn't matter because "Every Nazi is evil, but not every German is a Nazi." And many troops were just brainwashed by propaganda (the younger troops) or kept their mouth shut out of fear for their families.
I don't know, this is just the viewpoint of an outside American that likes history. To relate the issue to my country, it may be something like replacing the confederate flag with the bald eagle, which insults the bald eagle. I'm not judging you guys, I understand either way you don't win, and I still haven't seen the video so maybe you didn't use the iron cross.
+TheSilverWolf1998 The cross is not necessarily used to symbolize the Nazis, but the Wermacht.
Thanks for the heads up, I can't wait to see what you will be covering.
The Iron Cross is indeed still historically accurate, and so you're not wrong there. Keep up the good work!
I feel that you've maybe missed that it can also make your videos MORE accessible to Jewish and Romani people who want to watch those videos. Many of us have inherited generational trauma from the Holocaust and many of us find the image of the swastika itself very triggering. I know people who, upon seeing a swastika, feel overcome with panic and nausea. So while I understand your concern with "whitewashing" history, there is also part of me that wishes people didn't feel the need to shove the horrors of the Holocaust and its imagery in the faces of the descendants of the main targets of genocide. So if it helps at all, James, please know that you are actually helping to make the videos more accessible for the two groups most affected by the Holocaust.
“Swashtika”
Guys! There is no such law in Germany.
There are two specific parts in the german law, which discuss the symbolism of the national socialism during the 1930s and 1940s.
§ 86 StGB only states, that no propaganda material should be destributed as it's original pupose but can be shown for lucture and studies.
§ 130 Abs. 3 StGb states, that you should not propagate the teachings of the NSDAP or deny their atrocities.
But there is simply no law against showing the swastika. At this point, it's a medie myth.
hahahahahaha. Wolfenstein
It does exist, whenever it comes to games and youtube. Various videos showing the Swastika which can be even considered remotely pro-nazi are unviewable in Germany out of youtube's fear of being banned in germany like they were in countries like turkey, and various videogames were also censored in germany because of this.
I have read many of the comments here and I do understand both points of view. I agree not showing the Swastika in this series is understandable to avoid the legal hassles that could arise from it. I am also very happy that instead of letting this discussion to arise in the comments of the actual videos, it was great that EC had an open discussion here. However I do wish the Swastika wan't such a taboo. For many of the reasons that were said here such as historical accuracy, freedom of speech, and etc. One point I did not see was its hypocritical, why is it that the Swastika is banned/scorned when the Hammer and Sickle isn't.
I have many friends and a few family members who suffered at the hands of Communist regimes. If you were to list the numerous war crimes that Communist regimes have committed. People either didn't know or they immediately assume your talking about the Axis powers during WW2. Even before, during, and after the Soviet Union slaughter Billions of People including more Jews then during the Holocaust. I know you could argue they had more time, but how does that make it any less horrifying. I have spoken, listen, and seen many people who still can tell of the horrors they suffered at the hand of Communism. Many understandably can't even bear to look at the symbols of Communism with out being overwhelmed.
So why let one hateful symbol be shown when another cannot? I would like to know peoples opinion in this as well in the comments of this video. I believe that both should be shown, because freedom of speech and expression is more beneficial then the hateful things we might here now and again. For the reason my Grandfather told to me "Extremism in any shape or form (political, religious, etc) is a danger to all societies, and should be met in open forums to be denounced. Then to just forbid it so it can then fester in the dark until it is to late." A great historical example was the Nazi march in Skokie in 1977, that even thou the Nazi's were aloud to march with the Swastika held high a larger and more diverse group peacefully marched in opposition of them. This helped people of many different looks and beliefs come together against hate. That to me is the best benefit of letting these horrible speeches and symbols be in the open, so people can see it and stand together against such things.
I think it would be interesting to make an episode on symbols intended to be forgotten, including, but not limited to the swastika, hammer and sicle and the "rising sun" japanese flag. I am sure there are more around the world but they don't get much attention and the crimes they symbolise are starting to be forgotten.
BTW, Japanese Ministry of tourism changed the official map symbol for temple from a swastika to a pagoda in 2015, amongst many preparations for the Olimpics
. Good choice. Better to make this concession and substitute a less 'Nazi' symbol to avoid being banned, than to hold to rigid authenticity on a silly stand of principle, and then have your extremely educationally valuable series not available to a large number of people. Thank you for explaining this issue, and for doing it in the first place.
As a German I have to say: You would have had no problems, if you had decided to show the swastika. The law clearly states that it is ok to show the symbol for educational reasons, which is clearly given in your case. Back in school the swastika frequently showed up in history classes and every movie with a historical setting is free to use the accurate symbol (even if it's more about entertainment than education).
The law (or at least the interpretation thereof that I was taught) is more about the intention for showing the symbol. Things that are pursued are for example: Waving a flag with the swastika, wearing it on clothes (yes, even if it's crossed out) or in general displaying it as a statement of your mindset.
The only reason I can think of for you to do this, are weird youtube policies. If that is the case, please state that directly next time, because there are now lots of people in the comments who think Germany is a weird censorship state.
I am sad by this, but I respect y'all's choice to not show the Swastika!
I look forward to the new series
I dont know why, but i just love watching James speak about different stuff.
Gonna be straight here.
this is a dumb law.
Germany, your not using the Nazi Symbol as a joke, your using it to *Teach fucking history* , what, are you just gonna try to say "Oh uh, the Nazi symbol is completely pointless except it's not.", that's bullshit.
Edit: note this is coming from someone who's grandfather was in the air force, so I'm not trying to downplay world war II's effects on the world or some shit, but you SHOULD NEVER censor something for the purpose of making a few people happy, sometimes happiness isn't always a good thing.
The thing is, this law is not meant as whitewashing undesirable history. Hear mehr out :
Right extremist groups, who intend/intended to abolish the liberal-democratic foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany (like the SRP, ANS or Wiking-jugend) are prohibited.
The StGB § 86a outlaws the symbols used by these people.
So, not the Hakenkreuz used by the NSDAP is prohibited (those are the one's who are allowed to be used in educational, historical or art-settings),
but the symbols used by anticonstitutional groups in recent history.
The thing is, this law is not meant as whitewashing undesirable history. Hear mehr out :
Right extremist groups, who intend/intended to abolish the liberal-democratic foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany (like the SRP, ANS or Wiking-jugend) are prohibited.
The StGB § 86a outlaws the symbols used by these people.
So, not the Hakenkreuz used by the NSDAP is prohibited (those are the one's who are allowed to be used in educational, historical or art-settings),
but the symbols used by anticonstitutional groups in recent history.
Second: Look up the fall of the Weimarer Republik.
The prohibition of those anticonstitutional groups and - in extension their symbols - are meant to prevent a "re-enactment", that something like this could happened again.
Alright, but like most bills with good meaning, there's usually a dark side.
so thus, now germany has to whitewash history merely because of this law. and ya know what, really, this isn't going to stop outlaws from hanging up confederate or soviet or third reich flags. lets be honest here
*since when the fuck did outlaws obey the fucking law?*
+Joe Olson *you're
world war 2 is, to me, one of the most fascinating wars in history. so I'm looking forward to seeing this series as it comes out.
Those who forget the mistakes of the past will be doomed to repeat them
Note: this is directed at German lawmakers, not extra credits
+(InsertNameHere) The law was made by the allied in an effort to get rid of nazis. And germany is forgetting nothing about the past, as evident simply by the amount of anti-germanism you get pushed on you in school. The whole germany is bad, be aware not to repeat it, is a repeating theme in german history lessons.
I have tremendous respect for the way you teach us history(and everything else). The whole team is simply amazing.
Honestly I think that the fact that the swastika is given such a bad image now is saddening. I
It originated long before hitler and was a symbol of life and peace and prosperity. I don't agree with anything hitler believed in, but the swastika should not have a permanent bad image because of one wrongful use of it.
+Nicholas Ledermann you know words change in meaning so do symbols, gay once meant joyful now it means homosexual that is just the way language works
+Nicholas Ledermann
If it makes you feel any better, it only really has a bad meaning here in the west. In Japan, for example, some airsoft fans even have schutstaffel armbands just because they think it looks cool.
Dagda Mor doesnt that just mean that japan , is way better at ignoring WWII than the rest of the world
Nah, Because plenty of countries outside of the west use it as a religious symbol, and it's a cultural symbol for various culture groups, from ancient norse runes to some aztec architecture , Hindu Mandirs, Mosques, Early christian churches in Ethiopia... even certain Synagogues that have been long long abandoned. In Asia especially, it's still a symbol for good luck. It's like the Pentacle/Pentagram, thousands of years of benign usage and then suddenly some dickhead nazis and or satanists use it and now it's hated.
There should be a law against James saying the word swastika.
I think it's more of an issue for wargaming rather than german law...
Also, yay, hate on germany ahead -_-
the info is more important than the icon.
I support this decision and back you guys 100%
keep up the great work. And thanks for the explanation.
Cowards
Good on you guys. I understand how difficult of a decision it must have been. I agree with you that we should not censure or shy away from the past but in this case, being able to reach German audiences with the upcoming series at the cost of partial self censure may be worth it. The educational value in your series makes it worth it. I look forward to watching it.
Swashtika. lol
+Extra Credits about the flag 3:16 in the original video(the battle of kursk 1). could first only find that flag in the game world of tanks (also a simmular but diffrent flag was created by Zbigniev.). When i searched some more it seemed the flag was normal to use in games to avoid swasticas.
Is this a clever nood to the game industry, or was this flag actually used? The fact that it was among the top picture of searches for "nazi flag without swastica", makes me suspicius. It also looks simmular to the Reichskriegsflagge 1938-1945 (National war flag). With all this i would like to ask the source of this flag.
Actually its normal to show the Swastika in Germany in documentaries and movies as long as it is not in a glorifying way.
I dont think it would have been a problem to show it in your series.
But i can understand your decision and its good that you made a video about it.
Hey James, I'm glad you made the decision to not show the swastika just in case German (and incidentally, Austrian) audiences wouldn't be able to watch your videos.
One suggestion though - if you guys have trouble pronouncing the German names of things (Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe etc.), it might be a good idea to just skip doing that and call them "German army", and so on. As someone who's native to the German language, I had to listen to some parts a couple of times to make out what word exactly you guys were referring to. It's serving nobody if the pronunciation is off the mark entirely.
Someday that coat will come up missing. I will not be the one stealing it, BUT I will somehow end up in possession of it.
Thanks for the clarification! Extra Credit is awesome!
I will support you no matter what you do. You do alot of good.
That educational exception from the Swaztika ban should actually apply here, but RUclips might block the video in Germany just to make sure.
Thanks from a german viewer. :)
I commend your transparency guys, kudos!
I thought it was illegal to deny anything about the Nazis because the Nazis themselves denied history and Germany wanted to A) Learn from history and B) Separate themselves from Nazi Germany.
fun fact German army vehicles didn't have swastikas anywhere on them with the exception of airborne identifier panels (you stick them on top of the tank so your guys know who not to drop bombs on) however Finland did have swastikas on very prominently displayed on there tanks and planes.
thanks for taking the time to explain
This series is awesome!😄
(I really love learning about WW2.😊)
Not to forget, it was used on the national flag 1935-1945. Censoring a symbol is different than censoring a flag.
i am LOVING that way of pronouncing swastika. i'm adopting that, as soon as i can get enough practice in to make it roll off my tongue.
thank you for a really excellent variant pronunciation!
Well, it is unfortunate that people still cannot talk and use all of the information of history, but I'm glad you took a stance of doing this so it could reach more globally. Thank you James, and everyone of the Extra Credits team old and new for continuing to bring us Extra History.
I hope this message will come across the internet and that people understand: The Swastika wasn't the Symbol for German Millitary. It was the symbol of one of their political groups, which was in control when the War happened. None of the soldiers, aircraft or tanks have the Swastika on them, but rather the Iron Cross.
According to an historian friend of mine there was one Aircraft that did have the Swastika on it, but this aircraft was produced before the war even began and holds no purpose but aesthetics.
As a German I feel like I have to defend my countries laws here. To be clear: The law states that the swastika can not be shown in public places, as it is seen as scandalization, which should be understandable. However, usually context is absolutely taken into consideration. Showing a swastika for the sake of historic accuracy or if it's used for anti-Nazi messaging, is absolutely allowed and even protected. There are so many people having symbols like a fist destroying a swastika as pins on their backpacks or even tattooed on their arms and nobody makes a fuss. I even once ran into a film set with Swastikas everywhere. That was scary, but totally allowed. Also every german learns about Nazi Germany in school. As a kid I had history books that showed swastikas. It's not like we're trying to forget this time. This has has absolutely nothing to do with white-washing. We're just insanely traumatized and try to cope with it.
anyone else thinks James looks like a 80's wizard from a urban fantasy book?
Using the swastika should really depend on the context. In the situation of this EH series the Balkenkreuz is appropriate as it is the symbol of the Heer, it also helps emphasise that the average German soldier wasn't a Nazi.
What I really find distrubing is the lack of informed comments portayed here; this law isn't about censoring history or "political correctness". Firstly the article talked about in the video doesn't ban the Swastika specifically. It bans every unconstutional Symbol (e.g. Hitler salute) and it mostly serves to actually hurt Neo-Nazis or groups of people who glorify the Nazi-Era since it does not, in any way, harm education about the subject. Secondly this very law wasn't even put in place when Germany was a "free" nation (Germany was occupied by the US, Britain, France and the UdSSR).
I appreciate you weighing historical accuracy against accessibility of your videos, and also wanna thank you for settling on having the video be accessible in Germany.
As for the law prohibiting the use of the swastika..
Being German, I understand the reasoning (and validity in the *German* cultural context) of the ban. At the same time, I fully understand how this and some other laws seems completely absurd to people from other nations, especially the US - and it's a dilemma you *have* to understand from both sides, because there is *no* way to solve it! I highly appreciate the idea of free speech and I'm in the camp of "I will fight for your right of free speech, even if I don't agree with your position"; and at the very same time, there is no way I could see Germany without banning the use of the swastika or forbidding the denial of Auschwitz. I don't even think it is.. a cultural thing to the degree of Germans thinking only written laws could put order to things, when just a common ethical understanding did suffice - in fact, I've seen this kind of sentiment in American culture a lot. But still it seems to me that you do need to have grown up here to understand the importance of anti-Nazi laws.
For instance, ExistentialOcto rightfully mentioned that censoring the swastika could make it more exotic and even appealing to young people. However, it is not like German children and juveniles aren't exposed to the swastika - in fact they are, quite often, but it is usually in historic documents, in art, or in news reports on neo-Nazi groups (though the rarely adorn themselves with the swastika in public, as that would allow the state to at least take them into custody for the night). The restriction of the usage does give the swastika a special nimbus, but it's the nimbus of injustice, of terror, and - if the teachers or artists do their job especially well - the nimbus of *destruction* of the fatherland (that was, in addition to all the obivous horros against the persecuted and murdered millions, the second big tragedy the Third Reich inflicted upon us.. at least in my opinion).
All that being said, I cannot wholeheartedly agree with the details of those respective laws. I don't think it should be a criminal offense to use a swastika in a way that is indesputably *against* the ideology it represents - as was the case where it was put on buttons and crossed out.. I do grant the persecuters the benefit of the doubt that they in fact didn't want the swastika to be "a common sight, albeit behind a red bar", and that it was not acceptable to make money of it; I would have, however, first contacted the producer / shop / who ever was in charge, and requested them to have those buttons come in a very limited edition, so they could be ruled as an artful expression. Also, I'm a bit disturbed that a more recent symbol of a red fist shattering a swastika (the symbol has splinter broken of it, but is still recognizable), seems to be completely unaffected by the ban.
The ban on denying the Holocaust, too, is something I quarrel with in my heart - though I have to admit that here it seems the application of the law is handled fairly reasonable. I wouldn't want actual historical research be hindered, just because someone found that the number of people murdered was to be 10% lower, and that in turn would be considered denying the holocaust; also I think it is technically a fair statement to say "I wasn't there, I don't know if it happened", although this argument *has* been (maliciously) used by various groups, and at least from a ethical stand point (though maybe not a legal one) I don't condone using it just so they can hurt and embarrass Holocaust survivers and their families (and mainstream historians).
On a related note: German law does *not* forbid questioning Germany's supposed Alleinschuld ("exclusive guilt", or exclusive responsibility) for WW1. I've never really been a big supporter of this proposition, and the more I learned of the past two years (from, amongst others, your videos ^-^), the more I think that Germany in fact wasn't the single nation responsible - even though it did take a big part in paving the way for the War.
I notived that for the few people I've talked to or heard about talking about this topic, older German people tend to defend the proposition of Germany's exclusive responsibility, while younger people and non-Germans more readily accept a shared responsibility. I assume there is a common incentive in older Germans to stand by the exclusive responsibility, because they have lived through de-Nazi-fication, and since Hitler and his helpers did promote themselves on the basis that the treaty of Versaille was inacceptable, a de-Nazi-fied person can't easily reject the exclusive responsibility without feeling like they'd thus justify what happened in the Third Reich.
Supposedly, this kind of reasoning, and the shame associated with the various "guilts" of the German people (many of them undeniable, but some, like the Alleinschuld, definitely questionable), also play vital roles in the original creation, as well as the contemporary application of anti-swastika and anti-defamation laws.
It saddens me a bit, because for one I don't see a reasonable way to stand by the Alleinschuld without deliberate reductionism, and secondly I don't think opposing the Alleinschuld proposition could suddenly give any justification for the Holocaust and all the terrible things that happened in the Third Reich.
thank you for explaining this. I do appreciate how you take this matter seriously
Don't 100% agree with your descision but completely understand and respect it. Keep on being amazing guys.
that Dune / Cthulhu background choice... I love this man even more now.
I was wondering why there was an Iron Cross (German army) and Hammer & Sickle (Communism)but no swastika (Nazism) in your thumbnail about Nazi symbols. You definitely were thinking of the bigger picture here, however, made a sound decision based on sound reasoning.
Nice one James/Extra Credits
+ultraboy222 You'd be wrong. I can only speak for Poland, but I'm sure it goes for many other countries. Here we have both swastika and hammer and sickle banned. It isn't Germany level paranoia though, so we can use it for educational and historical accuracy purposes. It also isn't very well enforced as long as you don't glorify nazism or stalinism.
+Krzysztof Kowalski Yep, but "the hammer and sickle" is not automatically in reference to stalinism.
Le Rapace Yes, but it's pretty strange here, as communist regime is considered at least as bad as nazis, but there is surprising amount of people (usually old ones) that feel nostalgic about it, going as far as saying, that it was better during communism (of course it wasn't). I used stalinism incorrectly, but banning hammer and sickle has more to do with communist regime's crimes rather than communism itself. That's what I meant.
Krzysztof Kowalski Anyway, hammer and sickle isn't a communist symbol, it's an USSR symbol (who was never really communist), to be honest, even if i dislike the USSR, i prefer the Gorbatchev's russia than the Putin's russia and Yugoslavia was better than what the Balkan is today.
But for a country like Poland, yes, it's clear the communist dictatorship was really worse.
Le Rapace Even USSR government didn't really call themselves communist. It was a "socialist country, building communism" (while Poland was still "building socialism"). The fact, that hammer and sickle is USSR symbol and not communist is indeed easy to forget it also means that it is the symbol, that should be remembered for all those crimes. We didn't get the "hardcore" version of socialism, that USSR did, but our communist party was as messed up as Soviet was (as far as atrocities go).
What's the point of censoring this so that it can be used in Germany? The video is in English. Most German schools teach in German.
James, with that coat and background, you look like a rad wizard.
Good move, the way you did it, explaining your choice in this video is more educative I believe, no matter your choice and your opinion, you explained it and this to me is the most important.
Thank you for keeping this serie as awesome as it is :)
I don't actually think you guys would have gotten into trouble over showing the swastika in this context, because our German laws explicitly allow showing these symbols for purposes of art, science, or historical reporting.
But I think I know where you are coming from and that's your very own main expertise: video games. In Germany video games are not (officially) seen as a form of art, so games like Wolfenstein or South Park the Stick of Truth need to be either censored or aren't allowed to be sold. But an educational video should be totally fine. I mean nobody ever even thought of banning Raiders of the Lost Ark or Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade...
Other than that, I completly understand your caution and wanted to thank you for this absolutely exemplary web series. Keep up the great work.