Usually, I think, the players are only back to starting resources at around 15 villagers. So the unusual surplus in resources, together with not having to spread out your starting vils, does change this opening in a way a 15 villager start probably wouldn't
I went frame by frame, thats 4 frames of vipers TC in feudal age until it is destroyed, thats 66 millisecounds or 1/15th of a secound. because of 1/15th of a secound, daut had to spend another 45 minutes to get his well deserved win
@@annaairahala9462 I assume so. Changing the stream quality from 1080p60 to 480 halves the number of frames between feudal age and the change in the population limit. If that's not 60fps vs 30fps, I don't know what it is.
Yes, but it's actually crazy how Viper almost managed to come back from being that many villagers behind. That's actually unreal, it woulda have been a monumental comeback. For some time it looked like Viper could actually do it there.
I think it was mentioned during Dave's casting, but if DauT attacked and killed the lumber camp (like at 3:32) instead of the houses, Viper would have lost because he didn't have enough wood to build another one.
@@T-West yes but that would surely delay him a lot trying to get 10vills with 10wood to build 1 farm…. To then build a lumber camp… which might get crushed again. No?
When I saw the ungarrison and barely knew the state of the game at that moment - I was still absolutely thinking, 'this isn't an Imperial Age start & you don't have Sappers what are you doing'?
TCs only have secondary arrows, they don't have primary arrows. In the Dark Age 1 Villager still shoots 1 arrow from the TC. It's only after Fletching that 1 Vil isn't enough. Right there I count 7 Vils in the TC. Had it been 7 outside and 10 inside, then he probably would have gotten the TC down.
I've actually always wondered about the garrisoning tc and shooting arrows vs vil battering. I think with some math, there has to be an optimal amount of garrisoned vils + battering vils to get maximum damage!
I think the TC arrows are just better than battering, from what I tested. That's 10 Vils inside, and then once the TC is under 480 HP, the rest go to batter.
@@nothanks7475 the best response if you scout it is to build a bunch of pallisades so that there's not spot to place the TC in range of yours. It can be tricky to ignore it, as you can just get douched again at your new TC location.
Hey T-West! Just wondering about the Relics of Asthlon series! Where is it? When will it be completed? When will you record it? Are you planning on doing more seanarios or campaigns?
It's been completed for a while now, the playlist is here: ruclips.net/p/PLsL5agD04LBYsxt-RT4pKCN423fUy1Rkm The campaign author has been working on a sequel for a few years now, but it's still not completed. I plan to play it if it gets released.
@@T-West Make sure you do! Also are you planning on playing other scenarios or campaigns for our enjoyment? and could you do it without killing other units?
Hello T West. Let me start by saying how amazing your videos are. You have a smooth voice and your videos alwags well made. I just want to ask you i hope if its okay but are there any eta on your pacifist campaign run? (Sorry for my English)
2:01 It was the right play, however not executed perfectly. He was still shooting arrows. The best possible play is to have 10 vills inside the TC, and as many as possible hitting the enemy's TC (best of both worlds). He did have enough villagers to have 10 garrisoned while also having some hitting the tc directly from melee. As much as it's a 'mistake', it's the right play, just badly measured by him. Your analysis would be accurate had Daut ungarrisoned completely, which he didn't, because his tc was shooting arrows.
little late but you cant compare a empty tc vs the vills from a dmg output point. the tc will do its bas dmg when 1 vil is in. if you now repeat this and let 1 vill in the tc so it still fires. no mistake from lord daut
The point is that the TC needed 10 vils inside to do full damage. Any vil that is outside instead of inside when there are fewer than 10 is lowering the DPS. And that makes a difference when the TC staying up for Feudal was so close.
How about ungarrisoning 5 vils and send them to attack each of the repairing vils? Could it be effective, or Viper will be able to force the repair by mouse right click abuse?
Attacking the repair Vils could be an interesting idea. But Wood was already the limiting factor for repairing, he probably would have been able to spend it anyway by forcing the repairs. Stopping the Vils from collecting from the straggler trees might have worked though.
@@T-West Does attacking a repair villager cause the enemy to lose more HP (potential HP in this case) than attacking the TC directly? My intuition says yes, but idk. However, you also have to cross to the other side of the TC first, meaning the opponent has the time you're crossing to still repair. _Plus_ if the person being douched notices it, they can just force click the vils. _But_ that means they repair slower! Damn! How is this 20 year-old game so technical?
@@punbug4721 Then there's also the option of Vil-fighting on their Lumber Camp so they can't gather Wood to repair. That's the hard part about dealing with douches, there's so many different little things that can happen, and if one of them goes wrong you find yourself suddenly without a TC.
This is unrelated to the video but I have not found helpful info on this anywhere else and I figure you of all people would know, mr west. Basically I'm trying to create scenarios to play between me and my friend, but I cannot figure out how to playtest as player 2. Is there a way to play test as p2 or do I need to fully save the scenario, go to a lobby, and set myself as p2 with an ai on p1 in order to do that?
You can use Ctrl+Shift+F[1-9] to switch players in single player. So Ctrl+Shift+F2 let's you control p2. That still doesn't have an AI for p1 though. You might also be able to use the "Swap Players" button in the Players tab to swap the two players temporarily while testing.
Speaking of fighting houses, could you please check out for dark age vil vs house? I realized that lyx recently is fond of fighting houses using 2 vils right after 3 mins in nomad. Why is that a thing?
Oh, I'll keep an eye out for him doing this. The Houses have less HP and one less melee armor in the Dark Age, so it's definitely better than fighting Feudal Houses at least.
@@T-West I checked up some tournament games this year and feels like he is mostly doing this on a TG nomad setting. Also, I also find people vil attacking docks too (sometimes I also do it). I think it's more making things messy than vil work time.
It's less about destroying houses and more about making the opponent pop capped. House only costs 25 wood but if destroyed house means opponent also has 25+ seconds of idle time and always stays a vill behind, it's suddenly quite worth the effort.
@@Progeusz Thanks, that I understand. But I'm just curious if it's worth it. Whenever I do it, I feel it's not; whenever my opponent is doing it, I feel it is 11.
How I showed in the video around 1:30 iirc. If you get a super efficient woodline with multiple Lumbercamps it'll be more efficient of course, but that's probably not realistic if you're being douched.
Noob me woould just get ahead with vils and resources if douched and pick nice safe spot for 2nd tc and only research feudal in there. I don’t get, what did Viper have to gain, by rushing feudal so much.
Next week probably. Combination of being sick, dealing with holiday stuff, and doing map scripting for Warlords, TTL, and now Nations Cup have me a bit backed up.
It still needs twice the cost to repair in the Dark Age. There was a bug in HD at one point that it wasn't twice the cost to repair in the Dark Age, but that is no longer the case in DE.
Also it's completely unexpected that 10 vils melee attack is worse than arrow attack. How? Also daut was not just vil attacking, he also was firing with arrows.
Personally I'm not a fan of this play, Daut is basically abusing the map and the 9 villager start in order to cheese a win in the tournament. Imo competitive play should be a display of skill, and these settings make the douche a lot more oppressive and harder to recover from
Imo the douche still isn't a good strategy, Viper's decision to click up to Feudal just wasn't the right counter here. I do wonder though how the 9-Villager start affects other types of laming. Maybe Boar stealing isn't possible now since you have less time to Scout before they're taken.
This was hilarious. Even my 1200 ELO self could beat DauT or Viper if they tried this against me. With the optimal counter strategy, the defender has more than a 1500 villager second advantage. Even with a 1400 ELO difference, it would be very difficult to bridge a 1500 villager second gap this early in the game.
@@ionehodge6838 The best in the world are at the top because they make great decisions very quickly. The fundamental limitations of the game are the same no matter who you are. There exists a deep enough hole from which you cannot get out even with such a large skill difference. The question is, how deep is that hole? 1500 villager seconds by 20 pop is very very deep. Perhaps you are a high ELO player? You could try me if you want 🤣.
@@yahm0n you forget that Daut won the game. Have you calculated how many villager seconds viper wasted repairing? Viper has played thousands of games and no offense but his in game knowledge is just better than yours. I don’t think viper or daut are capable of making an error big enough that they would throw a game to a 1200 elo player. I’m a 1400 elo player and I have to have a pretty bad day and a whole series of bad decisions to lose to a 1200. These guys are 2500…..
@@ionestuart6748 Pros typically don't take TC dropping seriously, so you shouldn't assume that Viper used the best defense strategy here. Perhaps Viper will choose a more optimal strategy next time this happens.
that's true but he would needed to drop off the res with the other vills then send them forwards, between the micro and trying to maintain damage i think he made the right choice. I guess that just comes down to opinion.
naah, T-west trust me you are still far off from teh easiest way to counter douching, and i am surprised no one figured out how to counter it all this time when i figured it out in 1 week after i returned to this game. you can literally end the douching strategy in the first 30 seconds of the game.
@@dri6328 In the Dark Age each Vil shoots one TC arrow. It's better to have each individual Vil in the TC rather than attacking directly. 10 inside and 7 attacking would be more DPS than 7 inside and 10 outside like DauT had.
@@T-West I get that I was just saying in the two TC firing scenario you had, it didn't match the Daut situation. You had zero garrisoned with 10 attacking and the other had 10 garrisoned with zero vils attacking. Daut had 7 garrisoned with 10 attacking.
Speeding up the Dark Age with 9 Villagers just speeds up the douche.
Usually, I think, the players are only back to starting resources at around 15 villagers. So the unusual surplus in resources, together with not having to spread out your starting vils, does change this opening in a way a 15 villager start probably wouldn't
I went frame by frame, thats 4 frames of vipers TC in feudal age until it is destroyed, thats 66 millisecounds or 1/15th of a secound. because of 1/15th of a secound, daut had to spend another 45 minutes to get his well deserved win
@Tight n Nerdy good luck trying to win at a high level with a persian douche, send me a rec when u do it, Im waiting
Does youtube go 60 fps for frame by frame?
@@annaairahala9462 I assume so. Changing the stream quality from 1080p60 to 480 halves the number of frames between feudal age and the change in the population limit.
If that's not 60fps vs 30fps, I don't know what it is.
Yes, but it's actually crazy how Viper almost managed to come back from being that many villagers behind. That's actually unreal, it woulda have been a monumental comeback. For some time it looked like Viper could actually do it there.
After a certain point, the biggest twist possible was the game becoming a fairly normal AOE2 match
I think it was mentioned during Dave's casting, but if DauT attacked and killed the lumber camp (like at 3:32) instead of the houses, Viper would have lost because he didn't have enough wood to build another one.
He could always drop off Wood by building a Farm!
@@T-West farm still cost 60 wood, no?
@@T-West I was going to mention that, but he still needs 60 wood, and hopefully 10 vils full of wood, to build a lumber camp later.
@@xhawkenx633 That's 40 Wood less than a Lumber Camp!
@@T-West yes but that would surely delay him a lot trying to get 10vills with 10wood to build 1 farm…. To then build a lumber camp… which might get crushed again. No?
This is my favorite way to rewatch a game. I loved the focus on important moments and the breaks to do scientific analysis. Please make more!
Up
Viper with the frame-perfect click up. Good thing Daut is here to keep him in check!
Loved this episode, please consider doing this highlights format more often.
Loved the "Hello" in the minimap. Great content as always!
love this highlight reel video format!
amazing.. 2 OGs battling to the death while 3rd OG commenting on it.. What a time to be alive
When I saw the ungarrison and barely knew the state of the game at that moment - I was still absolutely thinking, 'this isn't an Imperial Age start & you don't have Sappers what are you doing'?
Asking T-West to make a video on common bag of loosing a vill through a corner of wall
Dude, great video. Subbed.
1:53 daut still has 1 vill firing in the TC, so he only doesnt get the extra arrows, which deal less damage to buildings, i think?
TCs only have secondary arrows, they don't have primary arrows. In the Dark Age 1 Villager still shoots 1 arrow from the TC. It's only after Fletching that 1 Vil isn't enough. Right there I count 7 Vils in the TC. Had it been 7 outside and 10 inside, then he probably would have gotten the TC down.
i love these breakdown videos!
I've actually always wondered about the garrisoning tc and shooting arrows vs vil battering. I think with some math, there has to be an optimal amount of garrisoned vils + battering vils to get maximum damage!
I think the TC arrows are just better than battering, from what I tested. That's 10 Vils inside, and then once the TC is under 480 HP, the rest go to batter.
Viper should have just moved his vils to a corner to rebuild his TC rather than fast feudal. He would've been ahead then.
Yeah. The longer I play the more I seem to think the best response to a Persian douche is to ignore it.
Yeah, seems like he was experimenting with the new format and seeing if it works.
@@nothanks7475 the best response if you scout it is to build a bunch of pallisades so that there's not spot to place the TC in range of yours. It can be tricky to ignore it, as you can just get douched again at your new TC location.
@@jordivermeulen2519 For the low initial distance between the TCs in this game, that's difficult to spot in time.
@@jordivermeulen2519 that doesnt work that well anymore now that palisades get destroyed super fast in dark age especially by a group of vils
very cool resume of that game. Ty
Hey T-West! Just wondering about the Relics of Asthlon series! Where is it? When will it be completed? When will you record it? Are you planning on doing more seanarios or campaigns?
It's been completed for a while now, the playlist is here: ruclips.net/p/PLsL5agD04LBYsxt-RT4pKCN423fUy1Rkm
The campaign author has been working on a sequel for a few years now, but it's still not completed. I plan to play it if it gets released.
@@T-West Make sure you do! Also are you planning on playing other scenarios or campaigns for our enjoyment? and could you do it without killing other units?
@@generalhyde007 There are a couple more pacifist runs I want to make once I find time. Have some campaigns routed out but need to record and edit.
Hello T West. Let me start by saying how amazing your videos are. You have a smooth voice and your videos alwags well made. I just want to ask you i hope if its okay but are there any eta on your pacifist campaign run? (Sorry for my English)
Pacifist are on the TODO list. Wanted to get more out this month, but don't think I'll have time, so aiming for middle of next month now.
great analysis thank you!
man i loved that video so much
Masterpiece...
Dauti dauti dauti...
i like your cutting skills
Madman
The top ten greatest should plan an anti-Persian douce. There must be a way in the current meta to accomodate for that
That is great content. Ty.
T-west content has Edge...
good job T
2:01
It was the right play, however not executed perfectly.
He was still shooting arrows.
The best possible play is to have 10 vills inside the TC, and as many as possible hitting the enemy's TC (best of both worlds).
He did have enough villagers to have 10 garrisoned while also having some hitting the tc directly from melee.
As much as it's a 'mistake', it's the right play, just badly measured by him. Your analysis would be accurate had Daut ungarrisoned completely, which he didn't, because his tc was shooting arrows.
Yes, he had only 7 inside instead of the full 10. With how close the TC was to dying that would have been the difference.
little late but you cant compare a empty tc vs the vills from a dmg output point. the tc will do its bas dmg when 1 vil is in. if you now repeat this and let 1 vill in the tc so it still fires. no mistake from lord daut
The point is that the TC needed 10 vils inside to do full damage. Any vil that is outside instead of inside when there are fewer than 10 is lowering the DPS. And that makes a difference when the TC staying up for Feudal was so close.
Calculated!
How about ungarrisoning 5 vils and send them to attack each of the repairing vils?
Could it be effective, or Viper will be able to force the repair by mouse right click abuse?
Attacking the repair Vils could be an interesting idea. But Wood was already the limiting factor for repairing, he probably would have been able to spend it anyway by forcing the repairs. Stopping the Vils from collecting from the straggler trees might have worked though.
@@T-West Does attacking a repair villager cause the enemy to lose more HP (potential HP in this case) than attacking the TC directly? My intuition says yes, but idk.
However, you also have to cross to the other side of the TC first, meaning the opponent has the time you're crossing to still repair. _Plus_ if the person being douched notices it, they can just force click the vils. _But_ that means they repair slower! Damn! How is this 20 year-old game so technical?
@@punbug4721 Then there's also the option of Vil-fighting on their Lumber Camp so they can't gather Wood to repair. That's the hard part about dealing with douches, there's so many different little things that can happen, and if one of them goes wrong you find yourself suddenly without a TC.
This is unrelated to the video but I have not found helpful info on this anywhere else and I figure you of all people would know, mr west.
Basically I'm trying to create scenarios to play between me and my friend, but I cannot figure out how to playtest as player 2. Is there a way to play test as p2 or do I need to fully save the scenario, go to a lobby, and set myself as p2 with an ai on p1 in order to do that?
You can use Ctrl+Shift+F[1-9] to switch players in single player. So Ctrl+Shift+F2 let's you control p2. That still doesn't have an AI for p1 though. You might also be able to use the "Swap Players" button in the Players tab to swap the two players temporarily while testing.
@@T-West Very nice, thanks a lot!
Hi T-West! Would you be able to do a breakdown of lyx's boar adventures and the nomad treaty box?
Oh I heard about that game, I'll look for it.
awesome content!
Speaking of fighting houses, could you please check out for dark age vil vs house? I realized that lyx recently is fond of fighting houses using 2 vils right after 3 mins in nomad. Why is that a thing?
Oh, I'll keep an eye out for him doing this. The Houses have less HP and one less melee armor in the Dark Age, so it's definitely better than fighting Feudal Houses at least.
@@T-West I checked up some tournament games this year and feels like he is mostly doing this on a TG nomad setting. Also, I also find people vil attacking docks too (sometimes I also do it). I think it's more making things messy than vil work time.
It's less about destroying houses and more about making the opponent pop capped. House only costs 25 wood but if destroyed house means opponent also has 25+ seconds of idle time and always stays a vill behind, it's suddenly quite worth the effort.
@@semi59o Same for docks, destroyed dock = stopped fishing ships production.
@@Progeusz Thanks, that I understand. But I'm just curious if it's worth it. Whenever I do it, I feel it's not; whenever my opponent is doing it, I feel it is 11.
3:00 Hello!
HELLO!
How did you test your wood count? It only takes 9 vils to keep the TC up.
How I showed in the video around 1:30 iirc. If you get a super efficient woodline with multiple Lumbercamps it'll be more efficient of course, but that's probably not realistic if you're being douched.
@@T-West Ohh, I southern with Sicilians and find that 9 on wood keeps me up, but maybe that's different.
Great video though
Hello, my name is Daut and today I'm going to show you how to Douche with Persian
nice vid man! keep on :)
1:54 anti Daut feudal age up
Noob me woould just get ahead with vils and resources if douched and pick nice safe spot for 2nd tc and only research feudal in there. I don’t get, what did Viper have to gain, by rushing feudal so much.
When's your next video for 2023?
Next week probably. Combination of being sick, dealing with holiday stuff, and doing map scripting for Warlords, TTL, and now Nations Cup have me a bit backed up.
awesome
nice maffs 5Head
Douching still take skill, the timing and process isnt as easy as it look.
Tc needs twice to repair in feudal not dark age
It still needs twice the cost to repair in the Dark Age. There was a bug in HD at one point that it wasn't twice the cost to repair in the Dark Age, but that is no longer the case in DE.
Oh man that's for letting me know. I thought it was still a thing.
Also it's completely unexpected that 10 vils melee attack is worse than arrow attack. How?
Also daut was not just vil attacking, he also was firing with arrows.
@@brucebanner2961 Yeah, he just didn't have the TC fully garrisoned. With 10 Vils inside he likely gets the TC down in time, with how close it was.
Personally I'm not a fan of this play, Daut is basically abusing the map and the 9 villager start in order to cheese a win in the tournament. Imo competitive play should be a display of skill, and these settings make the douche a lot more oppressive and harder to recover from
Imo the douche still isn't a good strategy, Viper's decision to click up to Feudal just wasn't the right counter here.
I do wonder though how the 9-Villager start affects other types of laming. Maybe Boar stealing isn't possible now since you have less time to Scout before they're taken.
This was hilarious. Even my 1200 ELO self could beat DauT or Viper if they tried this against me. With the optimal counter strategy, the defender has more than a 1500 villager second advantage. Even with a 1400 ELO difference, it would be very difficult to bridge a 1500 villager second gap this early in the game.
You don’t understand the skill gap. Elo doesn’t lie, your odds of winning against the viper or daut douching you are precisely 0%.
@@ionehodge6838 The best in the world are at the top because they make great decisions very quickly. The fundamental limitations of the game are the same no matter who you are. There exists a deep enough hole from which you cannot get out even with such a large skill difference. The question is, how deep is that hole? 1500 villager seconds by 20 pop is very very deep. Perhaps you are a high ELO player? You could try me if you want 🤣.
@@yahm0n you forget that Daut won the game. Have you calculated how many villager seconds viper wasted repairing? Viper has played thousands of games and no offense but his in game knowledge is just better than yours. I don’t think viper or daut are capable of making an error big enough that they would throw a game to a 1200 elo player. I’m a 1400 elo player and I have to have a pretty bad day and a whole series of bad decisions to lose to a 1200. These guys are 2500…..
@@ionestuart6748 Pros typically don't take TC dropping seriously, so you shouldn't assume that Viper used the best defense strategy here. Perhaps Viper will choose a more optimal strategy next time this happens.
There are civ bonuses like Lithuanians that are 150 food for example, that aren’t completely game breaking.
daut garrisoned a couple of his vills when he sent the 10 forward, I don't think he made the wrong move there
He only had 7 in the TC, not the full 10.
that's true but he would needed to drop off the res with the other vills then send them forwards, between the micro and trying to maintain damage i think he made the right choice. I guess that just comes down to opinion.
gg
Man why are you teaching people how to douche!
(Tbf you also talked about best ways to counter so all is fair and good I guess)
Still waiting for a pacifist vid.......
naah, T-west trust me you are still far off from teh easiest way to counter douching, and i am surprised no one figured out how to counter it all this time when i figured it out in 1 week after i returned to this game.
you can literally end the douching strategy in the first 30 seconds of the game.
Daut was firing arrows still since he had some garrisoned with he 10 vils attacking btw
But only 7 Villagers, not the full 10.
@@T-West your scenario had 0 garrisoned not sure if it even matters damage wise the bottom TC that is. It's just 10 vils attacking
@@dri6328 In the Dark Age each Vil shoots one TC arrow. It's better to have each individual Vil in the TC rather than attacking directly. 10 inside and 7 attacking would be more DPS than 7 inside and 10 outside like DauT had.
@@T-West I get that I was just saying in the two TC firing scenario you had, it didn't match the Daut situation. You had zero garrisoned with 10 attacking and the other had 10 garrisoned with zero vils attacking. Daut had 7 garrisoned with 10 attacking.
@@dri6328 Yes, I was specifically comparing TC arrow DPS vs Villager battering DPS.
Is there a link to the full game/set? I've been scrolling through Memb's latest casts and can't find it.
Looks like it hasn't premiered yet, here's the link: ruclips.net/video/TTKCDQSzuno/видео.html
I ALWAYS take straggler trees.
But then again, I only play AGE OF KINGS.
My PC is so old.
M 🦘🏏😎