Old school Navy Machinist Mate here (really old...)- Back in my Navy days we were taught that bushings were also called Sleeve Bearings. As long as there is a good supply of oil they generally run quieter and cooler as there is less friction. Downside - they don't like a lot of axial movement so endplay is very important. My 2¢...
I’ll pay a dollar for your 2¢ because I believe that’s the problem and it is documented. Since the OEM plate can have porosity and the bypass is not functioning correctly and oil bleeds by then the oil pressure drops from 35 psi to 0 psi at idle which leaves no supply of oil. The fix as he says is either installing an Axtell or Baisley relief valve in the OEM plate or buy the aftermarket. There are some great aftermarket parts but some have a max pinion shaft run out and the axial movement will destroy a oil pump. I’ve had one S&S pump detonate for reasons unknown and I never asked if they check the run out on the S&S crank.
I’ll stick with my Evo . I’ve had my low Rider for 27 years . I put in a decent cam and a mikuni 42 mm carb and drag pipes that I tuned on my Dino and the bike has over 100,000 miles and I have not opened the engine since, horse power is is in the 70ty’s and the bike is happy and goes good enough. The Evo to me was the last real Harley with roots back to 1936 . I know this will piss people off but I think HD has forgotten it’s roots and is lost in the woods.
I prefer Evolutions! I finally did it Gixerfoo, I finally got an Evo. Surprisingly, it wasn't the Road King that I am a huge fan of. I just picked up a '95 Electra Glide Classic with 95k on it. All original, no upgrades and dealer serviced. Planning on putting another 95k miles on it. One cam, no cam plate, rebuildable to infinity. Long live the Evo!!!
Fueling sells an " OEM +"cam plate that fits like early twin cams like the original and accepts the bearings. it's made from a stronger aluminum than the original. I just bought one of these for my 03 Dyna
Something else not mentioned.. and it never is, not sure why- but it’s incredibly important. A CNC cam-plate offers precision oil distribution. Far superior to any cast piece.
I prefer the new style cam plate on an 88. I used a Screamin Eagle version that has bronze bushings, along with "conversion cams". I can swap cams without needing to press them into cam plate roller bearings. I used HD parts for except cams. The newer stock cam plate has no bushings for the cams, and it goes against my grain to do things the Japanese way. I like the idea of swapping out the bronze bushings if it ever needed it. In a 2003 HD sales brochure it said in part: "Any machine not built to last, should not be built". I wish HD would take their own advice.
i prefer bearings /rebuildable aftermarket. for a "premium" bike company they seem to be cheaping out a lot. i think the aftermarket is what saves them a lot with buyers or blind brand loyalty. just my thoughts. good vid
@@GixxerFoo when stuff can "grenade itself" its not improvement , its fixing because of incompetence/lack of caring to me. cheap bearings is just that and remember they market them as being "premium" when even CVOs use the same cheap bearings. remember the shift linkages breaking on the M8s? that is defects to me. Ducati and KTM both have models that have adaptable cruise control, Ducati even has a blind spot warning for cars coming up on you. why doesnt Harley? on CVOs at least? im just trying to keep their standards high. if consumers dont then who will? to me aftermarket is there if you want something not because what you bought is broke to begin with. that is me though
for a "premium" bike company they seem to be cheaping out a lot. USED TO BE, there LOSING HUGE MONEY NOW a DAYS. The NEW GENERATION HAS ZERO INTEREST in HARLEYS or BIKES FOR that MATTER
@Justin.S that's what needs to happen, some real innovation from Harley bc A: Old school bikers are dying off and there aren't nearly as many "die hard" Harley guys as there were so they can't simply live off their name like they used to. B: They have real competition in the segment with Indian being owned by Polaris and getting some serious new tech in their machines with true reliability straight from the factory. Their bikes get add ons bc that's what someone WANTS to do. With Harleys, people are swapping certain parts bc they HAVE to. And on a brand new bike in 2023 that shouldn't be necessary to get a proper reliable machine
I have an 06 88. Put fresh chain tensioners in it over the winter after 32,000 miles, replaced the inner cam bearings with Torrington’s. Crank runout was under .001. Also have a 19 m8 that I’m putting an S&S camchest kit into. Sight unseen, I’d be willing to bet the crank runout will be .003 or higher on the m8.
Old stuff only way to go. Have an 01 EG TC 88 now 95" SE cam plate cams jugs slugs head work high Volume oil pump. New clutch Samson headers into Rineharts slips runs awesome real quick thanks great video 📹
@@Tomcat8911 they all serve a purpose, it was the “real quick” that threw me off. I have a stage 2 107 and it’s not real quick, especially when I ride other manufacturers cruisers or touring bikes.
Bushings are fine. Bearings getting loose inside the engine have been a problem since I was a service manager back in the late 70s and early 80s. Those bushings in the cam covers were serviceable but hardly ever needed attention at the mileages that were common back then. As much as riders complain now,it is amazing to me what is now considered just normal mileage on an engine. When the shovel head was the current engine you were doing heads at 20k due to the fuel changes. I also worked on British bikes and never saw a Norton go more than 25 k without an engine overhaul.
One of the first things my friends claim I need to do to my m8 engine.... S&S oil pump and cam plate. I knew I wasnt keeping my 2017 and traded it off at 36,000 miles. I have a roadglide limited now. Im keeping this one for a long time. Im 50, my next bike will be smaller and lighter. I'll keep this beastly geezer glide until it becomes too heavy for me to handle as I enter my senior years. So yep, on the agenda... S&S cam chest kit with a 475C cam. Touring bike, I dont need high rev... just bottom end grunt.
I changed cams in my 2013 103ci at around 6000 miles. Just the cams and inner cam bearings but noticed wear already in the cam plate. Traded it in at 18,000 miles so I dogged that bullet. Was still running strong without any noise or loss of performance. Dealer doesn't want me to know who bought it so I'm unable to share that info with the new owner. Sad.
GixxerFoo, you’re beating me up here😳. First I hear from you that the 88 TC’s have these lousy spring cam chain tensioners that need to be replaced with hydraulic tensioners😭. In another video you tell me that my ‘06 Dyna Wide Glide has the updated cam plate with hydraulic cam chain tensioners😃. Now you tell me that this new style cam plate is going to need replacement😩. I’m afraid to watch any more videos for fear of what else I’ll find out needs replacing!!!
I’ve never changed one out but if I did… I’d change the cam,cam plate,and oil pump as a set… if I didn’t go with the Screaming Eagle upgrade…. I’d probably go with the S&S, or Fueling…. My 2 cents… like the video…. Keep em coming. 🇺🇸👍
I’m an automotive (engine) machinist I’ve replaced plenty of both style of bearings. I’m sure most machine job shops would be happy to either pop out the old bushings and either turn an fit a new one or bore the plate out to fit roller bearings
If you had any power to your Harley at all the cam plate is the first thing you got to change (that and weld up your crank). I run the fueling heavy duty cam plate in my bike
Maintained properly it shouldn’t matter, turbochargers use a plain bearing for the impeller and those spin at ridiculous rpm’s and deal with a lot of heat. The problem is that it’s no small matter to inspect the bearings…
I have to mention that turbos have very consistent side load forces throughout 360 degrees of rotation. Cams have variable side loads throughout their rotation. I'm not sure comparing cam bushing/sleeve bearings to a turbo is really apples to apples. I do take your point about reliability though.
This seems a bit religious as some have a strong preference for the old school. Sliding bearings or sleeve bearings or plain bearings can be fantastic with long life if they are adequately lubricated. It's the type we use as crank bearings and connecting rod bearings. In old machines, you can find plain bearings that have worked for 100 years or more. So the question is, how well are they engineered and implemented on Harleys? When it is mentioned that they can be worn after a considerable number of miles, what numbers are we talking about? I consider ball bearings and roller bearings with their larger number of parts and tolerance sensitivity to have a higher probability of catastrophic failure.
I have "spun" a few plain rod bearings over the years. BANG, BANG, BANG. sick sound to hear. But I would love to have plain bearings in the bottom end of my EVO.
You can still get a brand new cam plate with the outboard bearings if you go with fueling. I recently purchased a fueling OE Plus cam plate which is supposed to be stronger than the original but still allows me to use spring loaded tensioner shoes and replaceable outer cam bearings. I know a lot of people hate the spring-loaded shoes but the aftermarket ones I'm running should be okay as long as I change them on time.
I'm glad I replaced my OEM camplate on my 21 ultra, I found a groove (1/3 of the diameter) left by the rear washer on the outer surface were the cam goes, my only thought was the alignment of the two sprockets was way out, so made 100% sure when reassembling they were level, straight and true in alignment. Will see later down the track if I was correct. Good video.
It stands to reason, for me anyway, if I’m going in to replace one part of it because of wear then I should just replace everything with an upgrade at the same time. It might cost a little more but I won’t be doing the job over and over. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Interesting video.
I have a 2011 CVO Ultra Classic Electra Glide with the 110 Screaming Eagle engine with 78,000 miles and I'm replacing my cam plate and cams with an S&S Kit.
I've decided to go with S&S cam plate and oil pump on mine too. Feuling makes really good stuff but the S&S just seems better. I have a 2000 so I'll be using the bearing style TC3. What I really like about the S&S TC3 for 2007+ is that it has brass bushings that can be serviced. Brass is harder than aluminum so it will wear slower, and if you have some monster cams and put a lot of miles on your ride you can still get those bushings changed and not have to scrap the plate. I think Fueling has the bores for the cams machined into the billet; when it's effed it's effed.
I’ve been thinking about changing the cam chains out since everything else will be new and the high mileage engine. What are your thoughts on that and which cam chains should I go with if I decide to go that.
Most definitely prefer the Feuling plate with the oil pump and gear driven cams in my 95" twin cam B; it seemed like a better idea to address all of the flaws and potential failures at the time of my build. Gixxer thank you once again for a fantastic video!
He have to remember that Harley engineers their bikes to be ridden as is. Even though they sell and promote all these performance upgrades their bikes are really designed to be left stock if you want long term reliability. And the sad part of this has been the case since forever. They even famously told the military when they got the contracts for the war “ you can have reliability or performance…but not north”. 🤷♂️
HD installed a complete S&S cam chest upgrade w/ MR 103 cams on my 15 King. I decided to keep the chain drive over gear because it's more forgiving of pinion shaft runout. I've had no problems coming up on 20K miles. I purchased the bike used back in 2016 with 135 mi. Thanks for all your great advice, looking forward to more!!
@@chib9427 I always had to change the original valves and guides on every shovelhead I owned, I always replaced the guides with bronze and Manley stainless valves. Never a problem after the change.
Harley's plate relies on machined billet for the bearing. If I had to choose between aluminum or a cam plate with brass bushings I would pick the brass every time. That said, I would rather have bearings anyway.
My 02 deuce had the usual failures and went to the fueling oe and oil pumpand the oil pressure is up 10 psi and runs cooler. Im currently doing the same to my latest hd an 06 streetglide and at 19k was loosing a tensioner. I will be repeating the same update on this bike also. Its too easy to do once you have the bike down this far. It takes less time to swap then put it back to stock
Does any aftermarket company offer a billet plate that uses bearings instead of bushings? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds especially if you plan on keeping your motorcycle for a long time.
There seems to be some new development around the M8 and sumping. Fueling seems to have a solution for the issue. Would you consider making a video about it?😀
I have an ‘01. The pinion runout was within .001”. I understand the later years allowed up to .012” of runout, which I’m sure contributes to the wear. I didn’t know I’d have to worry about the cam chest again after putting in SS gear drive cams, but there you go. Add one more thing to the list.
I have a 2000 with 19k miles and the old tensioners (they look OK for now). I'll be doing a cam chest rebuild and a cam swap this winter. I really, really hope my runout is as good as yours. I'll be goin' gears baby!
@@SparyZWanTuhNayHo My 2003 has only .0018 run out. I talked to an INdIE and told me the early Twinkies like mine and yours had very little run out. My mechanical tensioners looked good at 50K, but I replaced them, and again at 100K. I now have 111000. IMO after so many miles the chains get well polished and produce less wear on the pads.My oil pressure is well 35 lbs hot and 40 cold
@@codyhatch4607 That strikes me as a bunch of horseshit. I have to put my ear right by the cam chest to barely hear the gears. I think it was cost, despite what's been said. Slapping on a chain and tensioner is way cheaper and requires less skills/time than putting in gears.
Sometimes you just have to wonder about these motorcycle engineers. I don't have anything newer than a 1996 Road King, but I "cut my teeth" back in the day servicing and repairing a lot of British bikes and the BSAs were notorious for the cam bushing wearing out. They didn't run a bearing on that side. They also didn't run oil filters so you had dirty oil, causing wear and low pressure....bad combination.
Thank you for makeing this video. I have gotten a 2003 softail, have got over 5k in new parts CHOLO build. Now want more out of this 88-B motor. Not sure if I can find a big bore B motor for a show bike, If not will have to build this into the monster motor I need. All information is very very helpful.
I have a 2000 Deuce. I considered a 2007+ cam plate with conversion cams but I decided against it. I have great cam choices in the early style so I'm sticking with bearings instead of bushings. My choice is the S&S TC3 plus matching oil pump. The oil pumps are great and S&S quality is really good. I think any of the aftermarket big names would work great for me because they are billet and have bearings. I'm going with S&S because I want my oil pump and cam plate to come from the same manufacturer.
roller bearings kind of suck for the cams if ya think about it . theres a small space between every roller . cams dont just spin in circles they have a fairly good side load from the valves pushing down . sleeve bearings /bushings are much better suited for this think car crankshaft and camshaft "bearings"
I bought a 06 fatboy last summer with 18k on the clock .bike was extremely well cared for . Oil was changed every 3500 miles with Syn3 all its life. I have gone ahead and bought the Screamin Eaglecam chest and oil pump, hydraulic chain tentioners and lifters pushrods etc...
I just got a barn-find 2005 Dyna with 120 origional miles on it.... I would like to do some S&S cams on it and I think I can do it without replacing any other parts since it hasn't broke in yet. After seeing this video, should I consider replacing the plate, bearing, and oil pump?
I recently had a set of S&S 509 cams fitted in my 05 FXDWGI, I believe they came with a pair of new and upgraded needle roller cam outer bearings in the box, so that's an advantage over the later bushing style camplate
Hey Dene, those are inner cam bearings. The stock INA bearings are replaced with Torrington bearings. The stock INA bearings are fitted into a cage with space between the needle bearings. The Torrington-style bearings are "shoulder to shoulder", so more bearings, more surface area, more resistance to load. I did this change back in '93 on my Heritage when installing an Andrews EV46 cam. Hopefully, your mechanic checked/replaced the outer bearings. At 32K miles, my RK 95" had the SE hybrid cam plate/high volume oil pump installed.
@@jeffsappington9704 Hi Jeff, thanks for your comment - when the cams arrived I had a sneaky peek inside the box and saw those bearings and just assumed they were outer ones so I'm grateful for the correction The guy that does my spannering is fantastic and he assured me everything in the box was fitted. We were also dreading what he'd find when it came to the tensioner and shoes, but in the event he said everything was literally as new and there was no need to change anything which was a financial relief! My bike had only covered 10k so that probably had something to do with that
@@denerumsby6789 I just purchased some S&S 509 cams & the kit came with both the upgraded inner cam bearings & also new cam plate bearings so im tipping you got both as well.
I have a 2008 heritage Softail with a little over 100xxx miles! But I put her up for the winter and just ordered a new fueling cam plate and oil pump, fueling lifters, s&s quickie pushrods, woods night prowler tw5-6 cams, all new bearings, hi flow air cleaner, new exhaust, new hydraulic tensioners, a rekluse torque drive anti slip clutch, front and rear rotors and ebc sintered brake pads, a dynojet power vision tuner, all new gaskets along with new front and rear fenders, new fork seals, front and rear lowering kit and new paint from house of kolor lol. So thanks to you @gixxerfoo you taught me a lot about what parts to change out and nice bolt on parts that make great power!! So thanks for your awesome videos and the time you put in for us at home that need and want to know these things!!👏🏽👏🏽 keep the awesome videos and knowledge coming!! Stay safe and keep it on two wheels brotha💪🏽
Thanks for continuing to create these videos. I always enjoy the content you create even if I do complain a little bit about Harley-Davidson in the comments sometimes. I do miss seeing the saggy shelf in the background. 😅
I really appeciate all the info you share.You do a great job explaining in an easy to understand way.I have followed you for awhile and often wonder about your background,what is/was your job.Not questioning your skill at all,you obviously know your shtuff.Thanks again for all the info.✌🏻
I just Thank God I have a 98 Evo with 25k miles on it, at this point, and I can service 99% of whatever needs worked on. No it's not a speed demon or over-cammed but I don't need to go from 0-60 in 2 seconds either. Every time I watch a video on the "newer" bikes, I hear Warning messages over and over. Since I can't afford a new bike, I'll stick with reliable and easy to work on Evo's till my ship comes in...
I love my Harleys as I do all bikes, besides it's me that makes the bike not the other way around. But more and more it seems the best way to fix it so you don't have any more problems to deal with from now on is becoming more clear everyday..... I just need to put a Yamaha or Honda engine on my Harley... i think a V-MAX engine would be cool, or 1800 VTX ... just got to figure out how to get all that shaft drive thingamagigiy stuff on it. Heck it might even be a little faster....
Great info. I've got an 09 Road King and had the S×S gear drive cam put in it at 10,000 miles( just for a little more torque) Recently had a shop put on a rear tire. Started making a crazy noise right after that. Couldn't find it at first but sure thought the cam case was a problem. Finally got it on the lift and found a muffler clamp had been loosened and reinstalled with the half moon not in the right place. Fixed that and the 3 Allen ( loose as hell) bolts supporting the crossover bracket on the engine. Relieved to find that was the problem. Still running strong with no more irritating noise. So close to 100,000. I think it will make it easy now. Question... You think she can handle a big bore and a little head work?
I like the new style, but prefer to call it an oil distribution block. The pressure relief valve is much more dependable, but you have to check it! Don't rely on the factory for quality checks. Dodge those cars Gixx, see you next week
Have you compared the new HD billet cam plate and the newer oil pump? They look exactly like the S&S products, I wonder if there is any difference. I read that HD made their upgraded cam plate and oil pump because of their racing the HD Baggers. I've been looking to upgrade my M8 107 to the S&S Torgu cam kit in the future. I have a 2018 Deluxe 107.
I have no doubt the SE cam plate for the M8 came from the racing program. I would go with the S&S though honestly, those are much higher quality to me.
5000 miles in the year 2000 I had a catastrophic failure on my 88+ to that was I got to do the stage one screaming eagle kit do it by just paying for the parts Harley did the work for free
I've chosen S&S. I have a 2000 so I get bearings. Any brand would work fine for me. I like the S&S oil pumps a lot so I'll just get the matching cam plate. TC3 for 1999-2006 (excluding Dyna)
HAVE the S+S CAM PLATE WITH the GEAR DRIVE and TORRINGTON BEARINGS IN 04 95" FATTY. I WILL ADMIT a LITTLE NOISY WHEN AMSOIL GETS HOT. BUT I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT in MY DRIVE TRAIN
99' 88 is getting the fueling camplate and oil pump for Christmas @12 0r 13 hundred Can. expensive but worth the price. If I could not do this myself It might cost at least twice that!
Don't most people check out the cam plate when doing chain tensioner? I don't really like the twin cam engines ,I am familiar with the old Shovelhead which I think is a good engine if you know how to Spanner, or the EVO engine was imo probably one of H.D best engines but they will either let go in the first say 50 thousand miles or last forever, but they are really still very user friendly and they go good enough for most people.
Only Harley would do something this stupid after the 1960s. Actually, back then they almost had their sh*t together. Sure, you had to line ream bushings but it was all serviceable. They've actually gone backwards
Gixxerfoo I have a ? This winter I am going with a 95 big bore on my 2002 tc 88B. The shop I am doing this at wants to use my stock head and cylinders to save money. will this give me the same output or would I be better off buying a ss kit with new heads. Thanks for the great vids.
Do you prefer the old style cam plate with bearings or the new style with bushings?
Bearings
Bearings
Bearings
Bearings
Bearings,, and I blame joe biden for the change!!!
Old school Navy Machinist Mate here (really old...)- Back in my Navy days we were taught that bushings were also called Sleeve Bearings. As long as there is a good supply of oil they generally run quieter and cooler as there is less friction. Downside - they don't like a lot of axial movement so endplay is very important. My 2¢...
I'll take your word for it, sir. I'll admit I'm a bit prejudiced, my father was a Navy veteran (WW2) and a machinst! And thank you for your service!
If you're an old machinist mate , hello brother snipe . You'll know what that means .
I’ll pay a dollar for your 2¢ because I believe that’s the problem and it is documented. Since the OEM plate can have porosity and the bypass is not functioning correctly and oil bleeds by then the oil pressure drops from 35 psi to 0 psi at idle which leaves no supply of oil. The fix as he says is either installing an Axtell or Baisley relief valve in the OEM plate or buy the aftermarket. There are some great aftermarket parts but some have a max pinion shaft run out and the axial movement will destroy a oil pump. I’ve had one S&S pump detonate for reasons unknown and I never asked if they check the run out on the S&S crank.
Aluminum cast aluminum is no replacement for bushings. Just like the tapered crank bearings. And on and on
I’ll stick with my Evo . I’ve had my low Rider for 27 years . I put in a decent cam and a mikuni 42 mm carb and drag pipes that I tuned on my Dino and the bike has over 100,000 miles and I have not opened the engine since, horse power is is in the 70ty’s and the bike is happy and goes good enough. The Evo to me was the last real Harley with roots back to 1936 . I know this will piss people off but I think HD has forgotten it’s roots and is lost in the woods.
I prefer Evolutions! I finally did it Gixerfoo, I finally got an Evo. Surprisingly, it wasn't the Road King that I am a huge fan of. I just picked up a '95 Electra Glide Classic with 95k on it. All original, no upgrades and dealer serviced. Planning on putting another 95k miles on it. One cam, no cam plate, rebuildable to infinity. Long live the Evo!!!
Fueling sells an " OEM +"cam plate that fits like early twin cams like the original and accepts the bearings. it's made from a stronger aluminum than the original.
I just bought one of these for my 03 Dyna
Something else not mentioned.. and it never is, not sure why- but it’s incredibly important.
A CNC cam-plate offers precision oil distribution. Far superior to any cast piece.
I prefer the new style cam plate on an 88. I used a Screamin Eagle version that has bronze bushings, along with "conversion cams". I can swap cams without needing to press them into cam plate roller bearings. I used HD parts for except cams. The newer stock cam plate has no bushings for the cams, and it goes against my grain to do things the Japanese way. I like the idea of swapping out the bronze bushings if it ever needed it.
In a 2003 HD sales brochure it said in part: "Any machine not built to last, should not be built". I wish HD would take their own advice.
Oh that kills me they did away with even the bushing in the SE cam plates, the bushing wasn't bad since it was rebuildable.
i prefer bearings /rebuildable aftermarket. for a "premium" bike company they seem to be cheaping out a lot. i think the aftermarket is what saves them a lot with buyers or blind brand loyalty. just my thoughts. good vid
It's amazing how much improvement they leave in there for the aftermarket to come in and improve.
@@GixxerFoo when stuff can "grenade itself" its not improvement , its fixing because of incompetence/lack of caring to me. cheap bearings is just that and remember they market them as being "premium" when even CVOs use the same cheap bearings. remember the shift linkages breaking on the M8s? that is defects to me. Ducati and KTM both have models that have adaptable cruise control, Ducati even has a blind spot warning for cars coming up on you. why doesnt Harley? on CVOs at least? im just trying to keep their standards high. if consumers dont then who will? to me aftermarket is there if you want something not because what you bought is broke to begin with. that is me though
for a "premium" bike company they seem to be cheaping out a lot. USED TO BE, there LOSING HUGE MONEY NOW a DAYS. The NEW GENERATION HAS ZERO INTEREST in HARLEYS or BIKES FOR that MATTER
@@davidson2004fatboy I'd say the new generation has little interest in anything that doesn't have a touch screen and wifi
@Justin.S that's what needs to happen, some real innovation from Harley bc A: Old school bikers are dying off and there aren't nearly as many "die hard" Harley guys as there were so they can't simply live off their name like they used to.
B: They have real competition in the segment with Indian being owned by Polaris and getting some serious new tech in their machines with true reliability straight from the factory. Their bikes get add ons bc that's what someone WANTS to do. With Harleys, people are swapping certain parts bc they HAVE to. And on a brand new bike in 2023 that shouldn't be necessary to get a proper reliable machine
You should also add, Harley’s new cam plates don’t even have brass bushings anymore!!
I have an 06 88. Put fresh chain tensioners in it over the winter after 32,000 miles, replaced the inner cam bearings with Torrington’s. Crank runout was under .001. Also have a 19 m8 that I’m putting an S&S camchest kit into. Sight unseen, I’d be willing to bet the crank runout will be .003 or higher on the m8.
I went with the Screaming Eagle cam plate and oil pump on my 2005 '88 softail. We'll see, time will tell.
Old stuff only way to go. Have an 01 EG TC 88 now 95" SE cam plate cams jugs slugs head work high Volume oil pump. New clutch Samson headers into Rineharts slips runs awesome real quick thanks great video 📹
“Really quick” 88 or 96 is a slow Sportster. It feels “quick” until it’s compared to something else, even something not so quick.
The more new and "improved" parts that come out the more I find myself buying up the older stuff!
@@Tomcat8911 they all serve a purpose, it was the “real quick” that threw me off. I have a stage 2 107 and it’s not real quick, especially when I ride other manufacturers cruisers or touring bikes.
Gears, like on the EVO, Shovel and back, are way better. The EPA, to cut down on gear noise made the MoCo. use silent chains.
@@Tomcat8911 How do you like it? More power to the ground.
Bushings are fine. Bearings getting loose inside the engine have been a problem since I was a service manager back in the late 70s and early 80s. Those bushings in the cam covers were serviceable but hardly ever needed attention at the mileages that were common back then. As much as riders complain now,it is amazing to me what is now considered just normal mileage on an engine. When the shovel head was the current engine you were doing heads at 20k due to the fuel changes. I also worked on British bikes and never saw a Norton go more than 25 k without an engine overhaul.
One of the first things my friends claim I need to do to my m8 engine.... S&S oil pump and cam plate. I knew I wasnt keeping my 2017 and traded it off at 36,000 miles. I have a roadglide limited now. Im keeping this one for a long time. Im 50, my next bike will be smaller and lighter. I'll keep this beastly geezer glide until it becomes too heavy for me to handle as I enter my senior years. So yep, on the agenda... S&S cam chest kit with a 475C cam. Touring bike, I dont need high rev... just bottom end grunt.
I changed cams in my 2013 103ci at around 6000 miles. Just the cams and inner cam bearings but noticed wear already in the cam plate. Traded it in at 18,000 miles so I dogged that bullet. Was still running strong without any noise or loss of performance. Dealer doesn't want me to know who bought it so I'm unable to share that info with the new owner. Sad.
GixxerFoo, you’re beating me up here😳. First I hear from you that the 88 TC’s have these lousy spring cam chain tensioners that need to be replaced with hydraulic tensioners😭. In another video you tell me that my ‘06 Dyna Wide Glide has the updated cam plate with hydraulic cam chain tensioners😃. Now you tell me that this new style cam plate is going to need replacement😩. I’m afraid to watch any more videos for fear of what else I’ll find out needs replacing!!!
The cam plates fortunately last a very long time, the aftermarket units are actually rebuildable too.
I’ve never changed one out but if I did… I’d change the cam,cam plate,and oil pump as a set… if I didn’t go with the Screaming Eagle upgrade…. I’d probably go with the S&S, or Fueling…. My 2 cents… like the video…. Keep em coming. 🇺🇸👍
Keep in mind, Fueling does not have a brass bushing for the oil pump so if you don't have a Timken bottom end, be extra aware of your runout.
I’m an automotive (engine) machinist I’ve replaced plenty of both style of bearings. I’m sure most machine job shops would be happy to either pop out the old bushings and either turn an fit a new one or bore the plate out to fit roller bearings
If you had any power to your Harley at all the cam plate is the first thing you got to change (that and weld up your crank). I run the fueling heavy duty cam plate in my bike
I hope you are making some kind of compensation for the work you do on these videos. You help alot of people I'm sure
Maintained properly it shouldn’t matter, turbochargers use a plain bearing for the impeller and those spin at ridiculous rpm’s and deal with a lot of heat. The problem is that it’s no small matter to inspect the bearings…
I have to mention that turbos have very consistent side load forces throughout 360 degrees of rotation. Cams have variable side loads throughout their rotation. I'm not sure comparing cam bushing/sleeve bearings to a turbo is really apples to apples. I do take your point about reliability though.
This seems a bit religious as some have a strong preference for the old school. Sliding bearings or sleeve bearings or plain bearings can be fantastic with long life if they are adequately lubricated. It's the type we use as crank bearings and connecting rod bearings. In old machines, you can find plain bearings that have worked for 100 years or more. So the question is, how well are they engineered and implemented on Harleys? When it is mentioned that they can be worn after a considerable number of miles, what numbers are we talking about? I consider ball bearings and roller bearings with their larger number of parts and tolerance sensitivity to have a higher probability of catastrophic failure.
I have "spun" a few plain rod bearings over the years. BANG, BANG, BANG. sick sound to hear. But I would love to have plain bearings in the bottom end of my EVO.
Serviceable for the win.
A manual addendum of undocumented wear items could be a bestselling book. *hint-hint*
Always a very informative video. Thank you for sharing. 2003 Dyna Lowrider here.
You can still get a brand new cam plate with the outboard bearings if you go with fueling.
I recently purchased a fueling OE Plus cam plate which is supposed to be stronger than the original but still allows me to use spring loaded tensioner shoes and replaceable outer cam bearings. I know a lot of people hate the spring-loaded shoes but the aftermarket ones I'm running should be okay as long as I change them on time.
I'm glad I replaced my OEM camplate on my 21 ultra, I found a groove (1/3 of the diameter) left by the rear washer on the outer surface were the cam goes, my only thought was the alignment of the two sprockets was way out, so made 100% sure when reassembling they were level, straight and true in alignment.
Will see later down the track if I was correct.
Good video.
Also the main cam bearing may not have been originally aligned, pushed in enough.
Put a billet plate and hi volume pump in my t sport.
Definitely peace of mind and the bike runs cooler for sure
It stands to reason, for me anyway, if I’m going in to replace one part of it because of wear then I should just replace everything with an upgrade at the same time. It might cost a little more but I won’t be doing the job over and over. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Interesting video.
I have a 2011 CVO Ultra Classic Electra Glide with the 110 Screaming Eagle engine with 78,000 miles and I'm replacing my cam plate and cams with an S&S Kit.
I've decided to go with S&S cam plate and oil pump on mine too. Feuling makes really good stuff but the S&S just seems better. I have a 2000 so I'll be using the bearing style TC3. What I really like about the S&S TC3 for 2007+ is that it has brass bushings that can be serviced. Brass is harder than aluminum so it will wear slower, and if you have some monster cams and put a lot of miles on your ride you can still get those bushings changed and not have to scrap the plate. I think Fueling has the bores for the cams machined into the billet; when it's effed it's effed.
I’ve been thinking about changing the cam chains out since everything else will be new and the high mileage engine. What are your thoughts on that and which cam chains should I go with if I decide to go that.
Most definitely prefer the Feuling plate with the oil pump and gear driven cams in my 95" twin cam B; it seemed like a better idea to address all of the flaws and potential failures at the time of my build. Gixxer thank you once again for a fantastic video!
Definitely the S&S cam plate and pump.
Great Video !! 📹
He have to remember that Harley engineers their bikes to be ridden as is. Even though they sell and promote all these performance upgrades their bikes are really designed to be left stock if you want long term reliability. And the sad part of this has been the case since forever. They even famously told the military when they got the contracts for the war “ you can have reliability or performance…but not north”. 🤷♂️
HD installed a complete S&S cam chest upgrade w/ MR 103 cams on my 15 King. I decided to keep the chain drive over gear because it's more forgiving of pinion shaft runout. I've had no problems coming up on 20K miles. I purchased the bike used back in 2016 with 135 mi. Thanks for all your great advice, looking forward to more!!
Good advice. I’m doing the full Monty on a cam swap this winter on my 107. Probably a S&S 465
I like my evo motor, dont think I would ever own twin cam or m8 maybe a sportster is ok.
Same here! I’ll take the simplicity and reliability of the evo over a few extra hp every time!
Evo owner here also, ditto.
Love my Evo, but if I had the coin I'd run a S&S engine.
There's a good reason that all the aftermarket performance engines are mostly built around the wvo engine 😉
I like the old bearings, not hard to replace. Brass bushings are a soft metal that will wear faster!
I sure hope Harley used bronze instead of brass! They look the same, but brass is soft. Bronze is very hard.
@@chib9427 I always had to change the original valves and guides on every shovelhead I owned, I always replaced the guides with bronze and Manley stainless valves. Never a problem after the change.
Harley's plate relies on machined billet for the bearing. If I had to choose between aluminum or a cam plate with brass bushings I would pick the brass every time. That said, I would rather have bearings anyway.
The bushing is only on the pinion shaft the cams ride in the aluminum plate only
My 02 deuce had the usual failures and went to the fueling oe and oil pumpand the oil pressure is up 10 psi and runs cooler.
Im currently doing the same to my latest hd an 06 streetglide and at 19k was loosing a tensioner.
I will be repeating the same update on this bike also.
Its too easy to do once you have the bike down this far.
It takes less time to swap then put it back to stock
Does any aftermarket company offer a billet plate that uses bearings instead of bushings? It seems like that would be the best of both worlds especially if you plan on keeping your motorcycle for a long time.
Best you can do anymore is aftermarket cam plates which have replaceable bushings.
The screamin eagle cam plate kit does. Have one in my bike.
Yes they do but for gear drive cams
There seems to be some new development around the M8 and sumping. Fueling seems to have a solution for the issue. Would you consider making a video about it?😀
Another great video!!
Awesome information!
Thank you!!
Keep up the good work!!
I have an ‘01. The pinion runout was within .001”. I understand the later years allowed up to .012” of runout, which I’m sure contributes to the wear.
I didn’t know I’d have to worry about the cam chest again after putting in SS gear drive cams, but there you go. Add one more thing to the list.
EPA made them go to 'silent' chains for noise reasons. Gear driven cams like belt final drives don't stretch.
I have a 2000 with 19k miles and the old tensioners (they look OK for now). I'll be doing a cam chest rebuild and a cam swap this winter. I really, really hope my runout is as good as yours. I'll be goin' gears baby!
@@SparyZWanTuhNayHo My 2003 has only .0018 run out. I talked to an INdIE and told me the early Twinkies like mine and yours had very little run out. My mechanical tensioners looked good at 50K, but I replaced them, and again at 100K. I now have 111000. IMO after so many miles the chains get well polished and produce less wear on the pads.My oil pressure is well 35 lbs hot and 40 cold
@@codyhatch4607
That strikes me as a bunch of horseshit. I have to put my ear right by the cam chest to barely hear the gears. I think it was cost, despite what's been said. Slapping on a chain and tensioner is way cheaper and requires less skills/time than putting in gears.
@@SparyZWanTuhNayHo
The earlier 88's had truer cranks from what I understand. Good luck on the install!
Sometimes you just have to wonder about these motorcycle engineers. I don't have anything newer than a 1996 Road King, but I "cut my teeth" back in the day servicing and repairing a lot of British bikes and the BSAs were notorious for the cam bushing wearing out. They didn't run a bearing on that side. They also didn't run oil filters so you had dirty oil, causing wear and low pressure....bad combination.
And people wonder why are those British bike builders went out of biz.
Thank you for makeing this video. I have gotten a 2003 softail, have got over 5k in new parts CHOLO build. Now want more out of this 88-B motor. Not sure if I can find a big bore B motor for a show bike, If not will have to build this into the monster motor I need. All information is very very helpful.
Almost every Harley I work on has a pinion shaft with a lot of runout so the cake plate and oil pump will need replaced at some point
Run out is really bad on these bikes, you're lucky to get an OEM back on there let alone a race pump with tight tolerances.
I have a 2000 Deuce. I considered a 2007+ cam plate with conversion cams but I decided against it. I have great cam choices in the early style so I'm sticking with bearings instead of bushings. My choice is the S&S TC3 plus matching oil pump. The oil pumps are great and S&S quality is really good. I think any of the aftermarket big names would work great for me because they are billet and have bearings. I'm going with S&S because I want my oil pump and cam plate to come from the same manufacturer.
roller bearings kind of suck for the cams if ya think about it . theres a small space between every roller . cams dont just spin in circles they have a fairly good side load from the valves pushing down . sleeve bearings /bushings are much better suited for this think car crankshaft and camshaft "bearings"
I bought a 06 fatboy last summer with 18k on the clock .bike was extremely well cared for . Oil was changed every 3500 miles with Syn3 all its life. I have gone ahead and bought the Screamin Eaglecam chest and oil pump, hydraulic chain tentioners and lifters pushrods etc...
I just got a barn-find 2005 Dyna with 120 origional miles on it.... I would like to do some S&S cams on it and I think I can do it without replacing any other parts since it hasn't broke in yet. After seeing this video, should I consider replacing the plate, bearing, and oil pump?
I recently had a set of S&S 509 cams fitted in my 05 FXDWGI, I believe they came with a pair of new and upgraded needle roller cam outer bearings in the box, so that's an advantage over the later bushing style camplate
Hey Dene, those are inner cam bearings. The stock INA bearings are replaced with Torrington bearings. The stock INA bearings are fitted into a cage with space between the needle bearings. The Torrington-style bearings are "shoulder to shoulder", so more bearings, more surface area, more resistance to load. I did this change back in '93 on my Heritage when installing an Andrews EV46 cam. Hopefully, your mechanic checked/replaced the outer bearings. At 32K miles, my RK 95" had the SE hybrid cam plate/high volume oil pump installed.
@@jeffsappington9704 Hi Jeff, thanks for your comment - when the cams arrived I had a sneaky peek inside the box and saw those bearings and just assumed they were outer ones so I'm grateful for the correction
The guy that does my spannering is fantastic and he assured me everything in the box was fitted. We were also dreading what he'd find when it came to the tensioner and shoes, but in the event he said everything was literally as new and there was no need to change anything which was a financial relief!
My bike had only covered 10k so that probably had something to do with that
@@denerumsby6789 I just purchased some S&S 509 cams & the kit came with both the upgraded inner cam bearings & also new cam plate bearings so im tipping you got both as well.
@@fitzymagee7469 I didn't see two sets, but I didn't have a serious rummage!
Thanks for the heads-up- good news all round
@@denerumsby6789 Good to hear! I think the twin cams are great motors, not all agree. I love mine and it runs strong.
could depend on the material used. cars have sleeve bearings on the crank that last 100,000+ miles.
A Harley with bottom end 'plain' bearings would run forever???
I have a 2008 heritage Softail with a little over 100xxx miles! But I put her up for the winter and just ordered a new fueling cam plate and oil pump, fueling lifters, s&s quickie pushrods, woods night prowler tw5-6 cams, all new bearings, hi flow air cleaner, new exhaust, new hydraulic tensioners, a rekluse torque drive anti slip clutch, front and rear rotors and ebc sintered brake pads, a dynojet power vision tuner, all new gaskets along with new front and rear fenders, new fork seals, front and rear lowering kit and new paint from house of kolor lol. So thanks to you @gixxerfoo you taught me a lot about what parts to change out and nice bolt on parts that make great power!! So thanks for your awesome videos and the time you put in for us at home that need and want to know these things!!👏🏽👏🏽 keep the awesome videos and knowledge coming!! Stay safe and keep it on two wheels brotha💪🏽
Thanks for continuing to create these videos. I always enjoy the content you create even if I do complain a little bit about Harley-Davidson in the comments sometimes. I do miss seeing the saggy shelf in the background. 😅
I really appeciate all the info you share.You do a great job explaining in an easy to understand way.I have followed you for awhile and often wonder about your background,what is/was your job.Not questioning your skill at all,you obviously know your shtuff.Thanks again for all the info.✌🏻
I just Thank God I have a 98 Evo with 25k miles on it, at this point, and I can service 99% of whatever needs worked on. No it's not a speed demon or over-cammed but I don't need to go from 0-60 in 2 seconds either. Every time I watch a video on the "newer" bikes, I hear Warning messages over and over. Since I can't afford a new bike, I'll stick with reliable and easy to work on Evo's till my ship comes in...
Just change the cam plate and oil put to a S&S in my 03 RKC
Can anyone define “after significant amount of miles”what’s the window of mileage a used buyer would want to be aware of? Awesome channel
Definitely great points here. Thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks for watching!
I love my Harleys as I do all bikes, besides it's me that makes the bike not the other way around.
But more and more it seems the best way to fix it so you don't have any more problems to deal with from now on is becoming more clear everyday..... I just need to put a Yamaha or Honda engine on my Harley... i think a V-MAX engine would be cool, or 1800 VTX ... just got to figure out how to get all that shaft drive thingamagigiy stuff on it. Heck it might even be a little faster....
Bearings. Bush can spin if worn. Ask BSA with a right crank bushings lol they spun and Big Bang
I have also heard them called "fluid bearings", while technically true it sounds deceptive
conspiracy theory here i wonder if HD and aftermarket vendors are in bed together HD makes crap aftermarket sells you stuff
Really blows my mind how far Harley leaves the door open for the aftermarket to improve things, that could be by design though.
S&S tc3 plate and pump in my 103 stage 4 build. Never looked back!
Great info. I've got an 09 Road King and had the S×S gear drive cam put in it at 10,000 miles( just for a little more torque) Recently had a shop put on a rear tire. Started making a crazy noise right after that. Couldn't find it at first but sure thought the cam case was a problem. Finally got it on the lift and found a muffler clamp had been loosened and reinstalled with the half moon not in the right place. Fixed that and the 3 Allen ( loose as hell) bolts supporting the crossover bracket on the engine. Relieved to find that was the problem. Still running strong with no more irritating noise. So close to 100,000. I think it will make it easy now.
Question... You think she can handle a big bore and a little head work?
I like the new style, but prefer to call it an oil distribution block. The pressure relief valve is much more dependable, but you have to check it! Don't rely on the factory for quality checks. Dodge those cars Gixx, see you next week
Great point!
May I ask what you think is a significant amount of miles is? I myself prefer bearings.
Just replaced stock cam plate with s&s cam plate and oil pump. Also new 510 cams chain and new bearings.
Have you compared the new HD billet cam plate and the newer oil pump? They look exactly like the S&S products, I wonder if there is any difference. I read that HD made their upgraded cam plate and oil pump because of their racing the HD Baggers. I've been looking to upgrade my M8 107 to the S&S Torgu cam kit in the future. I have a 2018 Deluxe 107.
I have no doubt the SE cam plate for the M8 came from the racing program. I would go with the S&S though honestly, those are much higher quality to me.
@@GixxerFoo Thank you, I was thinking that as well but wanted your expert view.
Bearings...but i went with billet plate new cams lifters oil pump and gear drive
The billet cam plates are the way to go!
I have an 88 I have had bearings go twice. The rear main and the Cam plate. With luck and a lots of money was able to save it.
5000 miles in the year 2000 I had a catastrophic failure on my 88+ to that was I got to do the stage one screaming eagle kit do it by just paying for the parts Harley did the work for free
I would like the new billet camplate if it had bearings would make it that much better in my opinion
I have a 05 cop bike with 15000 miles on it hate to change anything runs great 🇺🇸😎👍
Hey gixxer... Have you done a video on the problem year motors? One to buy and ones to stay away from
I haven't done a video covering all the engines together, I do have individual videos on each engines though.
That would be a great informative video
Which brand cam plate are you referring to, or recommending as a replacement?
S&S, Feuling, Zippers, any of the billet cam plates from the aftermarket are absolutely awesome.
I would go to a cam gear drive kit. That would be the end to chain maintenance for good.
I've chosen S&S. I have a 2000 so I get bearings. Any brand would work fine for me. I like the S&S oil pumps a lot so I'll just get the matching cam plate. TC3 for 1999-2006 (excluding Dyna)
HAVE the S+S CAM PLATE WITH the GEAR DRIVE and TORRINGTON BEARINGS IN 04 95" FATTY. I WILL ADMIT a LITTLE NOISY WHEN AMSOIL GETS HOT. BUT I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT in MY DRIVE TRAIN
Quality aftermarket parts wherever possible. They don’t sell shelflike junk like any stealership does.
99' 88 is getting the fueling camplate and oil pump for Christmas @12 0r 13 hundred Can. expensive but worth the price. If I could not do this myself It might cost at least twice that!
I upgraded to an s&scam plate ,cams and oil pump . I prefure to have servicable pats.
Don't most people check out the cam plate when doing chain tensioner? I don't really like the twin cam engines ,I am familiar with the old Shovelhead which I think is a good engine if you know how to Spanner, or the EVO engine was imo probably one of H.D best engines but they will either let go in the first say 50 thousand miles or last forever, but they are really still very user friendly and they go good enough for most people.
Is the screaming eagle cam plate and high output oil pump serviceable ?
You know your iSh..jiji
Thx.4 the 411..
Shout out from Philadelphia..
i have a 2006 fxdwgi, 40k on the clock, dunno what freedom units are, will i need to do the cam plate bearings (88") at 80k or 120k ?
Only Harley would do something this stupid after the 1960s. Actually, back then they almost had their sh*t together. Sure, you had to line ream bushings but it was all serviceable. They've actually gone backwards
Great content,Very good comments,I Like the evos,and Earlier! They Last!
Oh yeah bearings are best !
loving the new videos man! thankyou 👍
Old style with bearings is what I prefer
I prefer that blue S&S camplate :D
I think about 2013 they even left the bottom bronze bush out.
Goodvideo, Great content on the 88.
Thanks 👍 88 is an awesome motor, at least there you easily have a carb option too.
@@GixxerFoo
Yes, I've got a 2005 softail also
S&S cam plate all the way
I'd have to say that's about the best one out there!
What I'm wanting to know is if the screamin eagle stuff as good as S&S ,and Fueling ?
I have an S&S cam plate in my 2015 FLHXS with almost 134K miles on the bike. Is S&S expensive? Yes, but you also get what you pay for.
Gfoo - Outstanding info bra-da! Keep it Ripin.👊
I like s&s cam plate and oil pump combo buy once cry once lol.
Loving your channel GixxerFoo ♥️
RIP Queen Elizabeth ii 💔🙏
God save the King❗
Keep Living the F@#KING Dream ❗
Safe travels 🙏 ♥️🐾🐾
💪🇦🇺💪
Just purchased fueling upgrade it prefer (bushings)
what is your opinion of the Feuling cam chest and cams ?
Gixxerfoo I have a ? This winter I am going with a 95 big bore on my 2002 tc 88B. The shop I am doing this at wants to use my stock head and cylinders to save money. will this give me the same output or would I be better off buying a ss kit with new heads. Thanks for the great vids.