The Death of Competitive Smash Bros
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- When it comes to overpowered fighting game characters, Bayonetta from Smash 4 is often one of the first to be mentioned... So why wasn't the character ever banned?? Especially with Steve controversy in Ultimate, let's take a deep dive on our previous problematic character.
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I genuinely think Hbox video essays are the way to go instead of just gameplay videos.
Same
Just needs to stop slandering GnW with polar opposite descriptions of how works.
@Axe and he stream highlight videos he's been putting out since like 2017
I can confirm that this is true as someone who has never played Smash, watched maybe 4 matches, and have never watched gameplay footage and didn't even realize until you just pointed it out that these videos were made by one of the "gods" of Smash.
The fact is, the videos are just interesting and well done, and they explain just the right amount about the game that a non Smash player like myself can follow them, but also don't go into so much detail that a person familiar with competitive gaming, and specifically FGC, doesn't find it boring and repetitive.
So much more effort to make, but equally proportionally better!
I think another point for Sheik being less hated was Sheik was incredibly skillful and expressive. If smash 4 kept sheik as the best i genuinely think it would be remembered as a significantly better game
Sheik also died to total bullshit at 40% so everyone kinda felt bad for the players lol
*cheesy
Sheik also lost her grab 50 50 kill confirm so had to rely on the f tilt 50 50. She got nerfed but bayo was ridiculous throughout. Bayo shoukdve been banned and so should steve
Smash 4 Sheik was so fun that sometimes I still go back to my 3DS just to get a little taste of how things used to be.
speak for yourself, I'd watch bayos and steves all day over Shieks.
Bro please keep making these story-type videos. They are actually godlike
I just hope he makes sure to stay on topic, he didn't answer the question the entire video
ghost ride the whip peanutbuttergamer rainbow tylenol mashup
repent to God
It’s such a shame these Bayo players never learned how to talk to a lady, if only there was someone they could ask about it
It’s such a shame that Pit players have been unable to literate.
It's such a shame that Captain Falcon players have never been shown any moves before.
@@Sean-qg3ggIt's such a shame that Lucina players can't protect themselves
If only Marth players had someone to take away their meat.
It's such a shame that Mr. Game and Watch players can't go back after going black.
There is a reason I like to think Shiek was never hated, at least to the same degree as Bayo anyways.
Sheik still felt like she was playing Smash 4. Either finding a grab for guaranteed early damage, or chipping away at your opponent past 20-30% so that her combos/advantage can finally do its thing. Bayonetta felt like she was playing in her game of origin, and you are the unfortunate cpu enemy getting hit with a 20 hit combo that kills you in the process.
smash devs when they have to make dlc fair 😞
pay 5 dollars to be instantly good at the game 😔
They gotta get more money somehow
Unless its Sephiroth 😞
Or Sora…
@@averytubestudios or banjo lmao
Crazy thing is that even though she got nerfed into the ground in Ultimate, she’s still fairly viable competitively. At her core, her combos are still there, they just took out the busted kill of the top combo which I feel is well deserved cause it was too easy to perform and killed way too early. She’s one of my secondaries besides my mains Ken and Joker but man is she extremely fun once you get her down in her new state.
Crazy?
she's only viable now because she got buffed, when the game came out bayo was not viable
When Ultimate came out Bayo was pretty bad. She's only become viable after receiving buffs.
I hate the extra landing lag for every special that is used, even when you land without using an aerial. It just made her feel so clunky. She plays like she has serious menstrual health issues but refuses to go to the doctor.
For some reason they decided to up the lag for her using her specials but didn't make her grounded normals remain the same way so she can pressure just like the other characters. In smash 4 she didn't have special lag until she used 2 or more special moves not 1. However, in ult once she uses 1 special move she has a yrs worth of lag. @@yungmuney5903
I always think about how at the time there were people at my (at the time) college who would set up a tv and Wii U to play smash 4, and I ended up stopping by most days to play with them. It was a lot of fun to watch and play, and since some of the people who set it up played seriously, I was able to get their advice to improve at the game as characters I liked. Then, one of the serious players started playing Bayonetta all the time to "practice". Since they used a "best two out of three, winner stays in loser drops out" system, this guy naturally ended up playing pretty much the whole time, just using the same broken combos to steamroll anyone who played against him. As you can imagine, this meant that playing the game meant just getting destroyed by the same character using the same techniques that you'd have basically no chance of countering, and watching anyone else play was just watching the same character beating everybody the exact same way (I realized pretty quickly the only time it was ever exciting was when he started losing). As you can imagine, I just kind of ended up trailing off on showing up there, since the only way I'd get anything out of it would be if I seriously picked up Cloud for the sole purpose of trying to counter Bayonetta, and obviously that didn't interest me.
It's really interesting to me in retrospect how that ended up as my own little microcosm of what Bayo did to Smash 4's scene.
3:46 You have to take in consideration that ssbu's roster is 89 and smash 4 is just 51.
For ultimate, if all characters are represented equally, there would be 1,1% frequency for any given character, conversely 2,0% for smash 4.
So the frequenct for beyonetta is 13,6%/2,0% = 6,8 times the average and steve is 4,4%/1,1% = 4 times. So really beyo was more like 2 times more frequent than steve when taking into account the different sizes of the rosters.
Though this is true, I still think mentionning the 3x factor gives you a better picture in this case, cause that’s how it feels for the viewers and the players. When you watch a tournament overwhelmed with Bayo’s, you won’t consider how many you had to expect.
Taking in account Pokémon Trainer and Pyra/Mythra, the correct roster number is 86. 1/86 is closer to 1.2%, and 4.4% / 1.2% is 3.6.
So yeah, Bayonetta being twice as successful as Steve is correct… for now.
Bayo’s biggest nerf between games was without a doubt to her forward air.
She still does 76% damage in her combo, she’s still op
@@twelvenation6393
Doing big damage =/= op, not even viable especially with early ult bayo, bayo severely struggles to kill outside of backair, her forwardair extensions kept bayos combos, while still long, closer to the middle of the screen, which to the knockback nerfs of both upair and feels like fair, she didnt have anything to kill reasonably unles she got you out there at the percent she can combo AND kill at reasonably, she cant kill early because her options are rediculously slow, and she cant combo at high percents due to the changes of up b and side b practically killing some higher percent routes.
And good riddance, she has alot, but she doesnt have everything now, her edge gaurding is great, having holdable aireals really helps with that, but youre much less likely to get touch of deathed by bayo, and even less likely to die at higher percents off a combo
@@4days604 I play Lucas and she can trap me in a combo right off the rip with 76% damage every single time. She’s way too OP just the fact you can’t escape it
@@4days604 the bigger the comment, the hotter the air ngl
@@twelvenation6393skill issue
Smash Ultimate is now older than Smash 4 was when Ultimate released.
Dang.
And there’s no future game in sight.
Dang.
I for sure think Bayo would’ve been banned had ultimate not already been announced, I remember cloud bans in doubles were being tested quite frequently despite the looming presence of ultimate
8:06 huge respect to that guy for disencouraging the crowd from booing
He didn't even mention the five frame punish window against Witch Time.
*FIVE FUCKING FRAMES.*
I welcome vids like this, retrospective critical looks at smash, always nice to have so competitive scene can learn and improve on how to handle these kinds of situations
Wtf I got a Honda Motacompacta ad that had Hungrybox as an actor before the video started
6:06 To be fair, DK had an awful matchup against Yoshi back in Smash 4 so that could have been why DKWill chose Sheik in that set.
I doubt that it had to do with just Sheik being the best character in S4 back then haha.
Raptor is also my crewmate, and I knew he disliked fighting Sheik. My strategy was to camp with needles bc I didn't know the S4 Yoshi matchup that well yet and I knew if I went DK I would have gotten wrecked at the time lol. Yoshi feels like a matchup that I have to relearn each game bc they keep buffing the character haha. Eventually I go back and play it again with DK when I'm more comfy.
@@DKwill holy cow it's the man himself
- HBox makes a huge video essay to show how broken Bayonetta was in Smash 4
- Some random annoying AF Bayonetta player: Skill Issue
Sm4sh player seeing 4 bayo in top 8: 😡
Melee player seeing 7 foxes in top 8: ⭐️🤩🥳💫🎉 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡ 🔫 🦊 ⬡ ⬡ ⬡
So true lmao
Don't let this video let you forget how Smash 4 Corrin could KO with their counter if the opponent was at 30% before it was nerfed.
But yeah Bayonetta in Smash 4 was clearly the absolute best character with no counter play other than the Bayo player having to play badly and should have been banned.
Smash 4's DLC were just bad in that they were either bad to okay or too good.
Kinda important to note after patch 1.1.6 people started thinking Bayo was only a upper high tier... of course they were very wrong.
Unexpected, but very cool to see you make such a video, Hbox! Keep em coming, you're providing great insight. Appreciate the data points too.
Reminds me of all the EVO and other tournaments top 8 where Melee almost always had 6-7 Fox players.
In other news, someone saying ZeRo's name on RUclips?! That hasn't happened in years.
It’s either because the community had the weakest will, or because they had the strongest will. NO IN-BETWEEN!!
Such an interesting and important topic to cover in Smash history. I remember hearing about how bad people hated Bayonetta in Smash 4 online, it got to the point where I actually felt good that I was genuinely terrible with her and mained a mid tier character instead (Lucas).
For a similar video, I would like to see a video like this be made for Brawl Meta Knight (if there hasn't been one already). Definitely seems like another character that should have a video essay similar to this.
And this is a new era to begin in this channel, and god damn am I super down for these kind of videos!
Again, keep those coming!
I love this style of video, and having a person so important and knowledgeable about the community like you makes them so worth it. Keep up the awesome work!
bro the dead horse that is bayo has been beaten so much the corpse turned to bones and now the bones are dust there's nothing left but you are still beating the ground.
please do more of these, i loved this one!
This is the kind of thing that happens when a company genuinely does not care about the competitive scene for their game. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing though
I discovered Hbox thanks to Bronol's documentary on the 5 gods of Melee (I am French btw) and I love documentaries/stories/folklore about the Smash games. I did not know exactly what was the problem with Bayonetta in Smash 4 and your video was very clear and fun to watch. So thank you and please do not hesitate to release more videos of this kind, I think they are great ! And you make for a very good narrator too. Hope to see more stuff like this one soon again ! Why not something about SMB 64 players still active to this day ? Like how the meta evolves (or not) after so many years...
I think one of the reasons why the community didn’t decide to ban Bayonetta was because of Smash Ultimate finally having an official release date around the time the discussion was brought up.
I think the community just all collectively decided to put up with it for just a little bit longer and then just leave her, along with the rest of Smash 4, in the dust when Ultimate comes out.
10:57 I'm going to start a new band called Bayonetta Meta
Everyone who talked so badly about Lima during smash 4 when he was a kid and calling him carried been real quiet. He’s stuck with Bayonetta and proved he isn’t carried
Because the Smash community hardly ever agrees on the same thing. Other FGCs immediately ban a character
Smash community needs hard ass convincing
You didn't talk about steve's userate data at all :(
i know bayo is hated and i understand why, but growing up with mainly smash 4 and ultimate, i still love that game so much more than any other smash game. the amount of legendary moments, great memories and "aha-moments" (from starting to understand smash / platform fighters) is unrivaled
All i got to say that being away from smash for so long has made it far easier to realize just how unendingly horrible nintendo is at managing the worlds most popular competitive plat fighter. I hope rivals 2 starts to dig into the monopoly even if just a little bit, because just imagine a future where you dont have to deal with dogshit online, horrible balancing and bullshit dlc characters, nintendo giving the community the middle finger every now and then just for fun, etc etc.
I would love to see videos like this become a series, the history of a character would be an incredible series to watch
I just realized something.
Bayonetta...
BayoMETTA
"Meta" in games normally tend to fuck the game up
I think the problem is precisely when a game is excessively competitive... but TO THE EXTREME. Something similar is happening to Counter-Strike in general (except 1.6, because many NO LONGER PLAY IT and the competitive game moved to CS:GO and CS2). Being competitive is not bad, but like any extreme it is bad, that obsessive and vigorous competitiveness where everything is measured only by who wins and not by fun (or rather, by a mixture of both parts, winning and having fun, apart from learning ). But no, now everything is measured by that alone. Oh and I almost forgot, in CS, I think it's worse because of the issue of "skins" for "different" weapons and knives with their own "skins", you know what I mean...
As someone new to the smash scene this was great! Would love more story time videos covering stuff like legendary tourney runs and moments
when you do longer video's they're actually good videos it's positively surprising me
The question this video attempts to answer is horrible. Bayonetta was worse than metaknight. The reason bayo was never banned is because the smash community was completely inept, degenerate, and toxic. Any form of tournament authority and leadership was led by childish morons. Steve isn’t half as good as bayo was. People wanted to play overpowered DLC characters and it was forced to happen. EVO 2018 is the reason smash hasn’t been at EVO since.
Bayonetta wasn't even close to Meta Knight. Neither based on results or how they could abuse the game. You actually can sdi out of some of Bayo combos, whereas in brawl infinite dimensional cape had to be banned, and a ledge grab limit had to be enforced because there was ZERO counterplay to MK stalling and gliding at/below the ledge.
I still maintain base game Diddy was the most busted ass character in the game's history. But luckily he was nerfed rather promptly and multiple times.
Boy, I sure do hope this video that baited me for my click with the title refrains from trying to apply the history of a past series entry to this current entry to insinuate a sinister future for the game while displaying character performance rates that indicate there isn't much of an issue. That would be incredibly unfortunate.
Speaking frankly though you did quite literally say Ultimate has had the same ending gap that 4 did, show that Steve's performance rates are less than 1/3rd of Bayo's, and additionally that they aren't that far removed from other top tiers while taking your narrative in a different direction. There really isn't much of a gap there at all. The community doesn't need this kinda thing man. What the community really needs is someone focusing on the point you briefly brushed on that a disproportionately large amount of the best characters in this entry just happen to be "lame", "campy", or "boring to watch". This game doesn't have a Steve issue. It has a pacing issue reinforced by the best characters. Banning one of them won't fix it. Banning all of them is a garbage idea. Stop villifying a symptom rather than a problem.
smash 4 had customs, which gave amiibo infinitely more freedom of expression.
smash 4 had marth as an actually viable solo-main of a character (not just lucina, and not just as a counterpick against a few top tiers) and falco as a character that, while significantly worse (arguably one of the worst in the game), had a lot more freedom of expression rather than uptilt the character.
smash 4 wasn't plagued by characters that are just not fun to fight against due to a plethora of oppressive get-out-of-jail-free cards (the things i truly hate about characters like G&W and Steve is exactly that - i dont mind a lame playstyle, I'll play slow, I'll play lame, that's OK - i actually like fighting good zoners when i understand how to fight against them. But when you just have a free "get off me" tool that requires no brainpower and just removes all of my pressure with no effort (G&W up-b for example)? That's what i hate), characters that aren't very good but have oppressively stupid comeback mechanics and/or out-of-nowhere nuke you at 40-50% abilities (GO meter, incineroar as a character). Yes, many characters could combo you off the top with rage at like 50% or less on some stages, but it was significantly easier to play around and everyone had ways to exploit it (although it is definitely a flaw of the game). Oh, and shields in smash 4 were actually worse than Ult, because grabs were so strong you could counter them easier and there were less broken out-of-shield options, making pressuring someone's shield far more viable outside of "standing there, menacingly" and/or hopping around like a rabbit without throwing out any moves until they do (or MAYBE you get away with a grab every once in a while).
Point being?
Overall. Until Bayonetta dropped, Smash 4 was just far more enjoyable for me personally than Ult has ever been. Genuinely. And that's despite liking a game that has ledgeguarding and better combos more than something more neutral-focused, i play falco and marth i think that should be obvious (i dont like melee because of L-cancelling, but i respect people who do - it is a great game).
Smash 4 was more neutral focused, yes, but smash ultimate has proven to be far more defensive as a game due to the fact that so many good (and even a few bad) characters have very free easy universally-strong out-of-shield options with little to no counterplay outside of baiting them out (which you more often than not can't do if you hit their shield first), the fact that grabs are so much weaker, and many characters have even stronger defensive options when they're not holding shield. Pair these strengths together on a character that can camp and run away the whole game... and, well, you've got the current meta.
edit: Oh, also, i was of the opinion that steve shouldn't be banned initially... ...but then some of his tech started being discovered. See, if it was just on-release no-tech steve with the insane combos he had like week 1, he's just a strong top tier and contender for top in the game - not nearly as broken as bayo, who I still say should be banned even at smash con tourneys at this point just to make smash 4 fun again. But steve definitely started crossing a line eventually.
I feel like while Steve is a shoe in for Smash 6, he's gonna get nerfed in a similar way to how Bayo was in Ultimate.
I think a big thing is that NILs probably just won't be a thing in Smash 6, intentionally or not I think the tweeking they do to the character is gonna remove them.
I think they might make minecart a hitgrab and cause items to be lost on death
Steve is either getting nerfed hard in Smash 6 or won't be in the game at all. Either of which is something I'm sure a lot of Steve mains are dreading. I mean look what happened with Bayonetta in Ultimate.
great high quality video! this is like those hbox reacts videos but its actually you, and there are definitely so many more stories that can be shared
This video is what I show to people who claim Steve isn't broken and doesn't need to be banned.
More content like this, please!!
you have a great voice and tone for these kind of videos! keep it up!
14:06: uh, no? Even in ultimate, witch time doesn't care about the move it counters. We have the formula for it on SSB wiki. I'll just copy the section about it over:
*The formula for Witch Time's slowdown duration in frames is (180 - n) * b + 0.1p in Smash 4, and (90 - n) * b + 0.3p in Ultimate. n is the penalty for repeated uses of the move, p is the opponent's damage percent at the time they were slowed down, and b is 0.67 if Bat Within is activated alongside Witch Time, or 1 otherwise. As a result, if Witch Time is activated normally, the base duration is 180 frames (3 seconds) in Smash 4, and 90 frames (1.5 seconds) in Ultimate.*
probably people just don't notice/complain about it as much because bayo is worse with less representation and the base slowdown is halved, so there are fewer instances of bayo killing from witch timing a projectile across the stage. Still, I think it's absurd to not have scaling based on the damage/knockback of the countered move.
You said Bayonetta Meta, but you should've gone with BayoMeta
Steve is not even CLOSE to Bayo or Meta Knights power
Still isnt justifiable to have such a polarizing character defining the meta
Does anyone remember that Sakurai gave us the ability to nerf and buff characters in game? Not saying we should use it, but we could.
My question is how bayonetta compares to meta knight in brawl. He was just as bad in his game right? Maybe he's not remembered for killing competitive smash bros because there wasn't this awful spectacle that ruined it for people? It seems like brawl just faded away in comparison to ssb4
I think it's mostly about timing. Competitive melee was getting really popular and Cloud was recently added so there was a lot of interest in smash as a whole. At the time I remember playing smash 4 and thinking "wow project m and melee take way more skill" and then watching competitive melee rather than playing or watching smash 4. And also For Glory mode helped keep the game alive
You thought this Video is about Bayo but it‘s actually a Steve Ban movement in disguise 😂
Honestly always though Lucas was a good counter pick for Bayo. He was short enough to duck under her gun, his pk fire could reach her while staying under her gun. Her approach went low enough for lucas to short hop nair her and stop her / scare her from approaching with guns or the side b.
1:27 Well, this isn’t the first time ZeRo didn’t get 1st at EVO. He got 3rd at EVO 2016 losing to Mr. E and Kameme.
There is almost 2 times the characters in ssbu compared to s4 tho
Ay what a coincidence! Was just watching you, i love your videos!
>Competitive smash dying
Nature is healing
Sonic the fighhters is becoming internet popular now too. I reckon thats gonna take over
Bayo is so boring in ult - its just a mental struggle to play her. She can't even just throw out her moves like other characters can in the game without thinking, why cuz she has lag for doing so. Her moves still be dysfunctional after all the "fixes" and its frustrating especially when you're looking to get a confirm.
Bayonetta should’ve been banned. She practically killed Smash 4 lol.
If anything killed Sm4sh it was Ultimate tbh
If steve was a cool character he would be all over the place, but most player don't like to even play him. He was the most wanted character for a looooot of players and most of them didn't stick with him unlike bayonetta.
Why didn't Metaknight and Fox kill competitive Smash?
I love this storytelling form of content! Would love to see more videos in this format in the future :)
Love this knew style of content.
Story time smash 4s are what I live for man
Smash has a long history of swearing something isnt broken when clearly it is & not banning it.
Editing goes hard.
Nintendo has to stop this 'alright we released the final dlc we're done with the game" mentality.
If only they cared about the competitive scene they could actually invest resources into long term balance patches. And besides, they charge the same amount of money for all DLC characters but the very last few of them get less patches over time.
HBox essays, didn’t know I needed them till today
Awesome. I love story time. You’re good at telling the history of smash
I would’ve said the death of competitive smash was when Nintendo took TOs out behind the shed and ended them for wanting a competitive scene
Please keep these types of videos coming Hbox. PLEASE.
While it can be said that smash ult and 4 are in the same spot chronologically, I think an even stronger point is that they're at the same point meta-wise. What do I mean? Top players are starting to realize that steve actually has no counterplay (at least, no counterplay that is as easy as steve counter-counterplay), just like how people eventually realized that bayo was the best with no real competition. As sonic (maybe gmw, but I'm not too confident) reaches that point as well, I think people will eventually be unable to not reject the null hyphothesis (smash ult top tiers not being overtuned to an unfun and definitely game-worsening state). I think that will be the point when things are forced to move forward.
Also, just a question, but is it a fair comparison to compare bayo to only steve, when sonic is also another char people want on the chopping block? Should they be paired together for stats?
I was surprised to see this type of content from you HGod but I really enjoyed the video! 👍
Did anyone ever say “Bayometa” ?
It's funny. I haven't really watched or played since Smash 4 ended because I never bought a switch. Kinda crazy to think that Bayo's reign of terror was half a decade ago.
This is what happens when everyone has been crying nerf all those years.
A busted character ended up running the game. The game would have been more fun if you took the non nerfed characters and left them.
Even if it was not 100% balanced, it would have been way more fun.
I feel all the new characters are just more powerful than classics like fox and mario
I know the views are pretty mid but please keep this format/series
I love these essay type vids!!!
Even so smash 4 locals had the vibes- ultimate still doesn't at least in my area.
The problem was by the time a ban was in genuine consideration. Smash 4 was already heading to obsolescence as ultimate was coming the same year.
Bayo isn't broken, she's lore accurate.
_This post was made by Vergil gang._
Genuine question from a noob smash player. is Bayo still viable these days? i'm not playin for pro just want to beat my friends.
I love Steve, but I understand why the people try to ban him (and the other variants too). But I don't think they deserve it.
1:26 This sentence is a bit confusing. Zero lost evo in 2016. Got 3rd, but didn’t lose to salem
10:11 also dair literally kills at 0 lol
i still agree with that random comment though, how isn't she banned nowadays, i get the game "died" as soon as ultimate released but wouldn't those who stuck around be completely sick of her and band together for a metaknight style ban?
I have a feeling that this is gonna happen to melee in the future like maybe hbox will turn to a fox main same with aMSa but who knows
The community should just agree on banning the character for the sweet health of the game.. (along with sonic and kazuya.)
Like the content… but realistically one Steve crushes a few can consistently make top 32. And top players don’t seem to have much interest in picking him up. Tweek and Leo ~0%. The game has been out longer, 1 Steve ditto grands.
The real argument is most people don’t like watching him.
Miya had to switch off of Steve to win the tourney he was trying to win with Steve and he’s maybe top 2 in the world with the character. They need a balance patch agreed. But maybe acola s talented and there was a time when top players needed to learn the matchup. What was it like 8 months where random Steve’s won majors?
I get he was a kid but it’s crazy to me Lima is accepted in the smash scene today
I honestly think the Smash 4 community as a whole was too busy with complaining about Bayonetta instead of developing counter play against her. She has losing MU’s with Sheik being one of them. Also, I feel the last few Smash Cons are not a fair way to look at Bayonetta. Many of Smash 4’s top players did not compete in those Smash 4 brackets for Smash Con.
I would like to give a hot take of making steve the same as they are now execpt fixing advanced things but also making blocks only be placable like in Minecraft 😒how theyre supposed to be stacked then nerfing hitrate and then just making minecart less powerful and finnally changing launch lines on anvil and jab jab can be more horizontal
But also other characters can be buffed/ removed if there needs to be spot openings in the next game like duck hunt and doc and ofc the much needed gannon rework maybye even a fresh falcon with exactly the same playstyle but just a few extra cameos to his origin title then evening out some lower teirs and trying not to make many coppies (mega man and snake both heavy projectile characters with strong uptilts)
more of story/history time with hbox would be great!