Do you see a family resemblance between the Duke of Richmond and Henry VIII (or indeed Richmond and any of the other Tudors)? Let me below and don’t forget that you can also find me at: BUY MY BOOK (Find Your Irish Ancestors Online): amzn.to/3Z2ChnG Website (with 2 FREE DOWNLOADS): www.historycallingofficial.com/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
I think there’s some resemblance in the Lucas Horenbout portrtait (if you squint and imagine him with a beard and a bit more weight. Congratulations on 250k, by the way! It’s good to know that there’s an appetite out there for well presented history!
I feel like I see it between Henry VIII, Fitzroy (imagine a beard on him), and Elizabeth I. Comparing paintings of the three when they painted from the side: same oval face, small beady eyes.
I knew about Henry Fitzroy, but always thought he was forgotten in the background. I never knew he was so involved in the court, parliament, or the king had any communication with him. This was so interesting!
Yes, he gets overlooked a lot in TV shows and movies, but he was a much more important figure in his lifetime than modern screen adaptations of the Tudor era would have us believe.
@@GradKat That close a familial link was definitely not allowed, ever. I think anyone closer than second cousin had to apply to Rome for a dispensation to marry. The church would never allow half siblings to marry. given that, even though Henry had broken with Rome, it would definitely not be viewed as acceptable by the public, or anyone else!
He used his children as pawns. He terrorized his daughters and he killed their mothers, Catherine of Aragon indirectly and Anne Boleyn, brutally. He thought only of himself and loved only himself and yet, 500 years on we’re still fascinated by him. I think that says more about us than him. Always thought-provoking, HC. Thank you.
I don't think it's "yet" we are still fascinated by him--we are still fascinated by him precisely because of those things. I'm not sure what that says about us, but we are surely curious about what made him tick.
When I was a child I read one of those nice little historical fiction novels about the Tudor dynasty probably intended for young teenagers (this one was from the perspective of the teenage Mary I) and included a helpful family tree at the beginning of the book, and I remember seeing Henry Fitzroy, and being very confused how Henry VIII could have had a son with a woman he wasn't married with since I didnt know how the birds and the bees worked yet
Oh hey, Carolyn Meyer's books? I read those when I was about ten and despite how inaccurate I later realized they were, they really sparked my interest in early-modern English history (and historical fashion lol)
I didn't even know he existed until I was nearly an adult I think. He barely pops up in TV shows and movies about the Tudors I find and he was dispensed with very fast in The Tudors for some reason.
I feel you, but for me it was looking at my older half siblings family trees (school project that my parents decided we should all do) and I realized that my family tree didn’t fully match my older siblings (but mine matched with my younger brother) and my grandfathers’ names weren’t the ones listed on my tree. I was about three or four at the time and didn’t understand divorce or the death of a parent and remarrying.
I like how much Henry doted on and paraded around Henry FitzRoy, only to kind of forget about him after his death and the birth of Edward. Henry really was like a toddler in that aspect. As soon as he found something shiny and new, he tossed out the old and went on his merry way 🙄
Yes, you could (for a time) say the same thing about how he treated Mary vs Elizabeth. I'm sure he still thought of Fitzroy of course, but his two boys occupied very different chapters of his life.
Although artists have great leeway when depicting family resemblances. The image of King Arthur on the Winchester Round Table looks very much like Henry VIII as well. Guess which monarch trying to shore up his claim to the crown commissioned that work lol.
I'm shocked that after all the documenteries I've watched on the British Monarchy, I've never heard this story nor knew King Henry had an illegitimate son that lived past childhood. Thanks for a great lesson.
Because he died at 17 without children and long before his father, he tends to be a footnote in history as he didn’t really have much of an impact on anything
Wow, I had no idea that King Henry was so open about his illegitimate son, showering him with all the gifts and titles. He seems like a nice , respectable boy, and Henry absolutely doted on him. A sad end of what could have been..
I really would love to see a Tudor era story that explored more about Henry Fitzroy. It’s generally always the usual folks paid attention on like Mary and Elizabeth when it comes to Henry’s kids, which admittedly is very understandable given their reigns and importance. But much like how the show Becoming Elizabeth gave a much more prominent and proper showing for Edward VI (beyond just the usual forgotten little kid treatment), I’m hoping another Tudor story can show more of Fitzroy’s personality and character.
Yes, it would be interesting to look more in depth at how his children navigated that period of time. I really liked Becoming Elizabeth. It was such a shame it was cancelled.
Yes, it's an unusual decision. The only picture it reminds me of off the top of my head is the Holbein drawing labelled Anne Boleyn (not that her shirt was open!)
I've seen the portrait of Henry Fitzroy before and never really noticed him having a facial resemblance to his father. But now that you mention it, yes, I can see it. And, from what we know of Henry VIII, that seems like something that would have only increased his affection and regard for Fitzroy. Incidentally, did you know that there was a 2000s television series in which Henry Fitzroy didn't die, he became a vampire and survived to the modern day, and currently lives in Canada helping a human woman to run a detective agency. I think it was called Blood Ties.
Could the letter not have been written by someone else, his tutor for instance, who could also have added a level of maturity to the thoughts expressed there in.?
It would be So Interesting to know how Bessy felt about having to give birth to King Henry’s illegitimate son- I wonder if she was scared to death like I was when I found out that I was pregnant (and unmarried) at 23- Or maybe she was excited about getting to give birth to, at that time, the Kings only son- Anyways, THANK YOU HC for making learning about History, Especially Tudor History, Even More Fascinating! And although I already commented this on your previous post, CONGRATULATIONS on the Incredible achievement of your 250,000 subscribers and the Immediate Success of your new website!! You Absolutely Deserve Every Bit of it! Wishing you and your family Continued Blessings and Keep up the Great Work!!
It seems that all Henry's children inherited his eye shape, lips and complexion. Mary and Elizabeth's portraits definitely captured the tight set of their lips and it just makes me see the resemblance more!
I watched one of your earlier videos which mentioned Henry Fitzroy and I thought then that he looked so much like his father! I see it in the eyes the most, but even the nose and mouth bear a strong resemblance. Thank you for this deep dive into the Duke's life! I never knew how close he came to the throne!
Thank you as always HC, Richmond does have some resemblance to Henry, congratulations on starting up your websight, i for one will never get tired listening and learning from you HC, as always Thank you. ☺️👏
Well this was very satisfying Usually whenever Henry Fitzroy is mentioned he is quickly dismissed as illegitimate and passed over as a subject for scholarly inquiry And though I have seen a few videos which discuss him - I had no idea there was so much that IS known about him - even to his scholarly acumen and sporting pursuits! I find the portrait frustrating because it doesn't show his hairline nor hair color But it's true that it does look somewhat like Henry VIII Whenever I see this portrait I wonder what would possess a person to be painted in that attire - especially in Tudor times when what one wore marked him/her out for respect and privilege Is it possible it was painted during his illness when it was realized he was going to die? I know you gave dates for the painting but (as you said) his clothing looks like a costume one might wear to bed and why be painted like that?
It does seem an odd choice of attire to me too, but it's definitely well before his death. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for you as to why he was depicted like this. It's not unheard of though. The drawing supposedly of Anne Boleyn also shows a woman in a nightcap.
There's a sort of sad irony that both Henry's legitimate and illegitimate son seem to have died of a similar disease - at least by definitions of the time. And both died young, before they could act on any of the advantages they had in life by virtue of their parentage. Tbh as someone who works in education, sometimes with young boys ... Fitzroy's tutors sound like they're dealing with a standard issue teenage boy, and not coping very well with him and his nonsense, ha!
I suppose it was tough for them because they maybe couldn't discipline him too much, given who his father was and there wasn't great parental oversight at that time in his life (both parents being quite far away).
It’s pretty clear Henry was setting him up to be his heir in the event that he had no legitimate son, but I wonder if that would ever have actually happened. Would England have chosen an illegitimate son over a legitimate daughter, or would the throne have gone to someone else? There were hardly any viable male heirs at the time, so I think Mary would have likely won that battle anyway (is Edward hadn’t been born, that is)
@@happycommuter3523 she also had the backing of many powerful nobles since she had been seen as the heir for most of her life, and accepting a daughter as an heir would have been far less controversial as accepting an illegitimate child as an heir
It's tough to know. Both girls were legally illegitimate too, so an illegitimate boy might have been preferred, but as the others say below, Mary's foreign support (and the fact that so many people viewed her as legitimate, no matter what her father said) might have tipped the scales to her.
@@HistoryCalling I suppose it’s the difference between a girl born in a marriage to a powerful foreign family which was then ‘dissolved’ (although the nobles publicly supported Henry’s annulment I doubt all of them actually believed it in their hearts) and a boy born during an unquestionable adulterous and illegitimate affair
I never get tired of hearing your wonderful history tales. I enjoy your videos so much I save them to do housework, so that putting away dishes or clothes becomes enjoyable, but only because of you ❤❤❤
I look forward to your videos each week. I appreciate the meticulous documentation. I did not know that you had history book recommendations. I have made several purchases that were unreadable-wonderful new resource is greatly appreciated. On a side note: I am always looking for information regarding proper English, so I found the banner regarding using different forms of relate quite interesting. Thank-you for your video!
Thank you. You mean on the Amazon storefront? Some are better than others, but I put a little one sentence review on most of them to tip people off to potential issues. The only full scale reviews I have are on Patreon.
He has his father’s eyes and high cheeks. I enjoyed this video on Henry Fitzroy. I didn’t know all the details of his live. Thank you for the history lesson. Congratulations on 250K subscribers. Have you seen Firebrand? It tells the story of Henry’s last days and Catherine Parr. It got 55 rotten tomatoes. I’ll wait when I can stream it on my Apple TV.
Yes, I think it's in the eyes and nose myself. No, I was debating seeing Firebrand but it didn't look great. Maybe I'll wait for streaming like you. I'll be curious to see if Alicia Vikander can pull off an English accent, given that it's not her first language.
if Henry never managed a legit male heir Fitzroy would have been given precedence over Mary and Elizabeth for the succession - although convoluted dispensations to de-bastardize him would be needed I'll guess - as the recently self-appointed head of the English Church Henry VIII could fill out the forms himself
Yes, I suspect that might have happened too. He wouldn't have needed to be legitimised though, as neither of the girls were. He might have had an uphill battle to get the throne off Mary though.
The Duke of Richmond does resemble his father in that portrait, but since there’s only the one image of him, and the artist was presumably strongly motivated to show the connection, who can really say if they truly looked alike? We can't even see what color his hair was. Thank you for another enjoyable and illuminating presentation!
Yes, I wish we could see the hair colour too. It reminds me of the portrait of Anne of Cleves where her hair is all covered up (though we do at least have an eye witness account which said she was blonde).
I never really gave Fitzroy any thought until i recently found out that his mother is my 17th Great Grandmother! Tracing my family tree has opened my eyes on the more obscure of historical subjects. If you havent already, i would recommend tracing your ancestors, you never know who the hell you are related to lol.
congrats on 250k!! 🎉 have you ever considered doing a video on any of the spanish royals of this period? many of katharine of aragon’s family (for me, her sister juana in particular) have such interesting stories.
I have, but just as I was gearing up to do a video on one of them, another history channel did that topic and I didn't want to look like I was copying (though they've clearly copied me at certain points, so I don't know why I bother). That was quite a while ago though, so perhaps I'll work my way back around to that topic.
I also would be interested in Juana la not-so-Loca. I think she was railroaded out of her inheritance. If she wasn't mad before they locked her up, surely that would have driven her mad in the long run. I've always felt sorry for her ever since I read Prisoner of Tordesillas in my early teens.
You're welcome. There's another one next week too. I was on a bit of a bio kick at the time I created these and wanted to have bio videos on a few people I'd never really looked at before (excluding Katherine Howard, who I've looked at plenty, but I'd never talked about her whole life).
I really love history calling you give history and the English monarchs my favorite topic particularly Henry the 8th's reign Such a Life giving story Thank you for making for making it so interesting
Thank you. That's one of the big aims of my channel. I don't really like the very surface-level content that I see being put out a lot of the time and try to do better than that.
Thank you for this Henry had lots of illegitimate children but you can always tell they are related to Henry by the face shape nose lips and eye shape. Not everyone knew about his legitimate son. Henry’s obsession for a legitimate son to hand down the crown to how important it was in the Tudor times
Very interesting video - thank you! I knew very little about Henry Fitzroy. I don’t agree that he looks particularly like his father in that portrait, but in any case it’s hard to tell what anybody looked like from portraiture of past ages, as the results were often designed to flatter the sitter. For example, it’s suspicious that so many lords and ladies of the time had tiny rosebud mouths (including Henry VIII) - if we’re to take their portraits as being accurate!
That's very true. A paintbrush can be a lot more flattering than a camera. I dread to think what their teeth were like as well (although Richard III's looked better than I would have expected).
13:17 : 'laulye' of course is a misspelling of 'loyal', Like other sources also identify. Possibly he had the text dictated to him. In those days text in non-officlal documents was not seldom written like heard anyway,
When I was doing genealogical research on my family a few years ago, I discovered that my maternal grandmother’s line can be traced back to an alleged illegitimate son of Henry VIII, poet, playwright, and composer Richard Edwards. I was rallying annoyed; of all the English kings, why did I have to be (potentially) descended from Henry VIII, one of my least favorite historical figures? I kept telling myself that at least he was related to the Plantangenets, so it wasn’t all bad. On my Dad’s side, I’m descended from Duncan I of Scotland, and though MacBeth isn’t historically accurate, I can say that I have an ancestor in a Shakespearean play, and that’s really cool. To answer your question, I think Henry Fitzroy looks more like Henry VIII than Edward VI does. I think Edward VI looks more like his mother.
What a fascinating family tree. None of mine are that interesting. I agree that Richmond looks more like Henry than Edward did. Like you, I see a lot of Jane in Edward.
Congratulations 🎉❤ on 250,000 subscribers. I'm so happy for you. I love your content and all the research you do for these videos. I see a little of Henry. VIII in his son.
I honestly wonder why so many are still invested in this part of history, regardless of where you're from or how old you are. Personally, I cannot get enough even from a young age. I've seen all the series and movies that I can and have made my children watch with me so many times my daughter can quote quite a bit herself 😂
And then there’s Tanya Huff’s fantasy series (aka the Blood Books) which turned him into a heroic vampire. It was also turned into a television series in Canada. Never saw the tv version but the books are a very enjoyable read (not to mention the first time I heard of him.). Given how in some brief flashbacks he sounds like a melodramatic if not spoiled teenager, it looks like she nailed his character pretty well.
I loved the books, and the fact that he was a romance novelist...he would have plenty of experience for material. I never quite liked Vicky, though. And I think I only watched one episode of the show, and found that they'd changed things so much from the books that I never watched any other episodes.
I've always wondered how would Henry Fitzroy's relationship be with Edward VI had he lived long enough to see his half sibling grow up and eventually become King. Would he try to contest for the crown or would they be in good terms... ugh, super fascinating!!
You do wonderful work! I absolutely love how you debunk some "facts* we always thought we knew or confirm them! You can always tell when people are doing what they love!
Fun fact: Did you know, Empress Eugenie(Wife of Napoleon iii) found childbearing extraordinarily difficult. An initial miscarriage in 1853, after A three-month pregnancy, frightened and soured her.
@@LindaHarwardThat’s so heartbreaking. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of it. ☹️ After viewing these videos, I often think to myself how much more prominent death was within royal, even wealthy, households before penicillin and other advancements in medicine. I can only imagine what is what like for the average family.😢
@@Dropitlikeitshotspot Or even before the washing of hands! Which in many cases would have maybe negated the need for antibiotics. Also the absurd confinement they did for noble women, where they basically fattened them up like geese and kept them virtually unable to move or see sunlight for months! I am convinced there were more dangerous pregnancies and births for rich women than for the poor - who still had to exercise and whose diet consisted of more than just meat with a side of meat washed down with wine.
"Entirely beloved" ..... Hmmm - heard that recently - Wolf Hall I think it was. Cromwell and Wolsey discussing Wolsey's downfall. "Ah", Wolsey says - "...my entirley beloved Cromwell". I wonder if it was one of his catchphrases? 🤭 Thanks for this - I love learning new stuff - especially when some of the blanks are filled in. Great job HC.
@@stephencarrillo5905 Hey, Chum! All ok here - I trust you are similarly disposed?. In fact, I'm so Ok, that she who must be obeyed & I am off on a sojourn to Salamanca to visit chums for a few days. 😄
I didn't notice a resemblance of Henry Fitzroy to Henry VIII, although Holbein never painted him, as far as I know. Thank you so very much for uploading. I thoroughly enjoy your uploads as much as I enjoy reading Phillipa Greggory books. Listening to your renditions as I crochet blankets, is probably better. Thank you to your Patreons too*****
Thank you so much. I wish I had the knack of crocheting (or knitting, or sewing), but sadly I've never ben very creative in that way. I literally struggle to sew a button on. They really should have taught us those basic skills in school actually. Oh well :-(
@@HistoryCalling I'm 'ancient' being taught cross-stitch, early Primary. I picked-up crochet around 5 yrs ago. Combining these crafts alongside weaving panels - I like to create wall-hangings. Always struggled with knitting, though. Keep uploading 'HistoryCalling'*****
I have a 7th great grandma, Jannet Blunt, who was born 16 May 1689, Dumfries, Dumfries-shire, Scotland. He father's mane was George Blunt. But I haven't researched his parents yet
I don't know if they're any relation, but I can tell you that I have a real soft spot for Dumfries. I drive through it nearly every year going to/from the boat at Cairnryan and always stop off for tea in the M&S there and a walk along the river. It's a lovely part of the world.
29:42 it's like a carbon copy... I also noticed that he looks a lot like his grandfather Henry the 7th... It's pretty amazing that they're so vivid for being the age that that is... Thank you so much for doing these videos I appreciate it so much.
All I can say is Henry Tudor, aka Henry VIII, is the benchmark of reaping what you sow. He was so obsessed with having a son, having power, etc that his wives and children were treated badly. Henry’s health suffered, etc. Karma can be good or kick you in the backside
Henry Fitzroy's health or Henry VIII's? Henry Fitzroy was a healthy young man until he developed what appears to be a form of tuberculosis. Henry VIII's health certainly did suffer, although not as a direct result of his very bad behavior to his family.
I think he looks more like Prince Arthur than Henry. Thank you for another excellent video. Especially about the side people that we rarely hear about.. Very well researched.
Yes, I see what you mean about Arthur. Glad you enjoyed the video. I have quite a few Tudor figures that I really must get to, even after all this time.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DONATION CRYSBLAC. Hope you enjoyed hearing about Fitzroy. He's a bit overlooked these days, but was very important in his time.
@@HistoryCalling I certainly did, you have me becoming slightly obsessed 🤩 😅. I didn’t realize he was so accomplished and as highly regarded by him. Thank YOU for all your hard work, your appreciated! ❤️🙌🏽
Thank you. I'm sorry; to the best of my knowledge there's no way of telling. You could look back through my catalogue and see when the earliest video you remember watching was released perhaps?
Great video i love read and watching tudor history but i haven't read much about henry Fitzroy so thank you for your video i have also signed up to your newsletter 😊
So much for enduring fatherly love from Henry VIII. Only one child stayed consistent in his good Graces ..Edward VI. Henry VIII in my opinion the cruelest king most powerful completely void of empathy besides that tyrant King John.
Hmm, as cruel kings go I would put R3 up there too, but that's just me. Admittedly the Ricardians (of which you might be one of course) would hate me for saying that.
@@HistoryCallingthere could be legitimate historical proof that R3 stomped kittens to death and the Ricardians would still be like ‘oh but those kittens were born out of wedlock, and Richard had his reasons!’ Lol
I've never been able to get past him attending the judicial murder of his stepmother. Maybe it's just me, but there's something about that that just seems so mean and vicious.
I suppose he'd been ordered to by his father. I don't know that he would have opted to go himself. She was also his wife's cousin after all. It was all very awkward.
Hey HC!! Great video and amazing research as always - I love your Tudor videos. I have a video request: Would you consider doing a video on The Queens of England & Britain who never were? I’m talking about the mothers of kings/queens regnants who never were queens themselves? Like for example: Joan of Kent, Mary Bohun, Cecily Neville, Margaret Beaufort, Anne Hyde, Augusta of Saxe-Gotha or Princess Victoria? (As I’m typing this I realized just how many almost-queens England and UK had). You have already done a similar video with the Princes of Wales who never became kings so I think you would do this one greatly :)
Congratulations on your website! I will check It out as soon as I am done with my university madness I'm going through haha (all I can say is that physics makes me cry 😅)
It's easy, from our modern perch, to see Henry's regard for his children as pure narcissism. While I can't speak for or against his actual inner feelings, everything recorded by history shows how he saw his children and treated them as projections of himself and of his own designs and ambitions. They were, at any given moment, whoever he said they were. As a narcissist, he crafted his own reality and bent the world to it, and gaslit an entire nation- always starting at home.
Yes, I see what you mean. He certainly didn't really care about they wanted from their lives (at least not in Mary's case). Of course that was quite a normal way to view one's children in that era, so I guess we have to make some allowances for that.
Haha, that's pretty much what someone else said too. Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess. The Spanish Hapsburgs wouldn't have even blinked at that.
@@HistoryCalling Especially with Henry's argument for his first annulment being that he was Katherine's sister, when here he's considering marrying actual siblings. (Although I come from the horse racing world, where horses are only considered half siblings if they share a mother, and considered unrelated if they share a father.)
@@HistoryCallingI think even the Spanish Hapsburgs would have raised an eyebrow or three at marrying half siblings. Not that it would have stopped them. You don’t get a third eyebrow from marrying outside your family after all
Interesting to speculate what would have happened if the Duke of Richmond had lived into the years after the Reformation and his father's death. Would he have chosen to align with his Catholic half sister or his Protestant half siblings? Having another, adult son of Henry VIII around could have made the succession questions even bloodier than they actually were. Good material for novelists!
Very interesting question. Like Mary he was raised a Catholic, but he would also have been her main contender for the throne, so I don't know if he would have allied with her at all. He might have tried to oust her.
That or maybe he had some other kinds of help from god (or Allah in Arabic. Or god in other languages too like from known Hebrew dialects too) at the time.
This was interesting. I knew something of Fitzroy, but not all that you presented. I wonder about the tuberculosis issue, however. It seems that both Tudor boys died of it at similar ages. Has any research been done on this? Was there something physiological that predisposed them to TB? I know that living conditions, sanitation, and nutrition were appalling at that time, and this surely had an impact, but I've always been struck by the parallel between the boys.
Yay. You hit 1/4 Million Subs. Not long 'til 1/2 Mil then onwards & upwards. Henry Fitzroy. Hmm - before watching, all I know is he was the only recognized illegitimate son of Henry 8 and that he died young. (I could be wrong about the 'recognized' bit though😚)
Thanks Chris. Gosh half a million feels a very long way off though. It's taken 3 and a half years to get this far. You're not wrong about the recognised bit :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thanks. It's a heck of an acievement whichever way you look at it. You are most certainly doing something right, right? It's been great watching the channel grow from I think about Week 4 I think I subbed!! Proud of you for sticking with it 😊
Hello HC! He seems like a bit of bratty kid but also kind of sounds like he was influenced by the kids around him. i get the feeling he would’ve been better learning one on one.
Another great video HC. I do find it quite interesting how much they contradicted themselves back in that time. Even though today we still see it happening with the politicians of today. Not sure of them looking alike as I would need to see a picture with both of them at the same time. Thanks HC I will be going and looking at your website.
Thanks Vernon. I think the likeness is in the nose, eyes and small mouth, but it would be lovely to have a proper picture of Bessie to compare him to too. Oh well. Hope you like the site :-)
I really like your input im thses videos. You defenitely give us food for thought at the same time. Thank you, I'll be taking a history course soon. I will defenitely " keep learning". Thanks so much! ❤
It would have been interesting to see how he would have navigated the turmoil of his half siblings reigns. It is at least nice to see Henry actually behaving well toward one of his children.
I wonder what Mary I's relationship with him was like. I doubt they met often, but they must have run into each other at court at least once. If Mary didn't have any hard feelings towards Elizabeth prior to their father's death, I doubt she had hard feeling's towards Fitzroy. Though I wonder if he had hard feelings towards her.
She did refer to him as her brother, I can tell you that much, but beyond that I don't know. He was always a threat to her position (just as Elizabeth would be).
It was certainly a very odd reaction. Maybe Henry didn't feel it was appropriate to grieve publicly for an illegitimate son, or though that people would say it was a punishment for what he'd done to Anne?
@@HistoryCalling Both those explanations are valid. Henry's treatment of Elizabeth and Mary makes me wonder, however, if Henry truly loved any of his children as a father or if he viewed them in a more pragmatic way.
I find it odd that Fitzroy wasn't living with his wife by the age of 17. Is it possible Henry was delaying as he slightly regretted the marriage and wanted the option of dissolving the marriage left on the table? It also feels like Henry might have thought Fitzroy had let him down by dying so young and was therefore undeserving of a better funeral and burial.
It was at least said that the reason for the delayed consummation is that involvement in a sexual relationship too soon was that it was deleterious to his ability to father a child. I don't think Henry was probably too eager to have another marriage being dissolved in the family at the time.
Hmm, interesting question. I don't know, but it's possible given that things were heading south with Anne Boleyn, who was Mary's cousin. I have also thought that they could have lived together a little sooner, but I'm sure Henry VIII had his reasons.
All this effort towards an illegitimate son should not be seen as strange for the time. Keep in mind that Henry VII (father of Henry VIII) was born from the union to settle the War of the Roses (the civil war to settle succession rights among the cadet branches of the Plantagenet dynasty). This was a real issue of stability for the kingdom. Henry VIII understood that succession needed to be clear, orderly, and sinple. I am not excusing his actions against his many wives. Although, he probably wasn't the complete monster he's made out to be. Kings were still expected to lead armies, so he needed a strong male heir. I'm sure he was hedging his bets on an illegitimate line, in the event that he couldn't secure a legitimate one for long... which is why he took great care over his illegitimate son. If he needed a king to succeed him, because his wife (or wives) couldn't provide a proper prince, he would uave a strong backup the other nobles would follow. Of course, if he did have a legitimate male heir after all, he wanted to kake sure that the illegitimate heir would be content as a ranking noble.
Henry VII was born of a marriage between Lancastrians; it was his son Henry VIII who united Lancaster and York via the marriage of his father with Elizabeth of York. His desire for a male heir was understandable, but if he had wanted the succession to be clear, orderly, and simple, he had a very odd way of going about it. He successively made his first two children illegitimate. It's only his good luck that Jane Seymour actually had a son, although at least it was clear that Jane was his actual wife, since Katherine of Aragon had died and he had had Anne Boleyn executed.
I don't know how anyone back then lived a full life, with disease and redruming (murder) were rampant everywhere. I lived there for 3 yrs, (88-90 AF husband) so I fell in love with the country and it's people. Always intrigued about their lives. The Yorkshire Dales is my favorite part of the country for me.
Wonderful! That was a very "relatable" slip. One might even call it "endearing", which could be an adequate substitute for "relatable" in this script (at min 15:02) lol. All joking aside, brilliant job. Your mix of knowledge and wholeheartedness is why a quarter of a million of us (and growing) spend some of our unrecoverable time being enriched by the results of your labor (Yes, American). Thank you 🤗 PS: Some royalty--free-background music (no pun intended) would make your lovely content even more enjoyable..
Thank you so much. I actually had music in my very early videos, but it was just too labour intensive to keep sourcing it and adding it in. Also, I'm not sure RUclips's music can be used off platform and I also publish my videos on Patreon.
Regarding the idea of Henry marrying Bessie Blount after the death of Tailbois and having Fitzroy retroactively "legitimized." Don't underestimate the virginity obsession. As you point-out, Henry is elevating Fitzroy, but still protecting the rights of potential future legitimate royal boys. (It's clear he would prefer THAT outcome.) Hindsight is 20/20. Would marrying Blount have been preferable to cutting-off the heads of wives and everything else? Absolutely. Henry, at this point, is still hopeful. The hope is not just an heir-at-any-cost, but to marry and impregnate a virgin. Bessie had been married to Tailbois for years and had born him children. Not good royal PR.
Edward, Prince of Wales, the Black Prince married a widow. Henry II married a divorcée with two previous children. Edward IV married a widow. Emma of Normandy, widow of one English king, married another. Henry IV's second wife was a widow. Richard III's wife was previously married. And, of course, Henry himself married the distinctly non-virginal Catherine Parr--and their wedding contract specifies the position of their future children. Marrying a widow with children by a previous husband might have reassured her royal husband of her ability to bear him a child as well. However, I think you are right that after Anne's execution, Henry still preferred to marry a virgin, but that, in my opinion, was more due to his personal inclinations than to tradition. As you say, he was still hopeful.
Do you see a family resemblance between the Duke of Richmond and Henry VIII (or indeed Richmond and any of the other Tudors)? Let me below and don’t forget that you can also find me at:
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I think there’s some resemblance in the Lucas Horenbout portrtait (if you squint and imagine him with a beard and a bit more weight.
Congratulations on 250k, by the way! It’s good to know that there’s an appetite out there for well presented history!
Yes, I can see it in the nose and the eyes. I definitely don't doubt his paternity. Thank you for the congrats as well 🙂
I feel like I see it between Henry VIII, Fitzroy (imagine a beard on him), and Elizabeth I. Comparing paintings of the three when they painted from the side: same oval face, small beady eyes.
Yes, with a beard Fitzroy starts to look like a Henry doppleganger!
Most definitely. I’d say Prince Henry, the New Year’s Prince, is probably less well known than Henry Fitzroy. Another interesting story in any case.
I knew about Henry Fitzroy, but always thought he was forgotten in the background. I never knew he was so involved in the court, parliament, or the king had any communication with him. This was so interesting!
Yes, he gets overlooked a lot in TV shows and movies, but he was a much more important figure in his lifetime than modern screen adaptations of the Tudor era would have us believe.
His mother also seems to have lived a far better life than any of Henry’s wives.
I never think much about Fitzroy because he died so young, but he really lived a lot in those 17 years.
He did. It's a shame he gets overlooked in so many movies and TV shows about the Tudors. He was very important in his day.
@@HistoryCallinghe lived longer than his future little brother king edward.
People in gazza think they have it bad
also congrats for the 1/4 million milestone!! It’s all up from here and you deserve it!
Thank you so much. It's a nice milestone to have passed.
@@HistoryCallingkeep up the great content, & you will only grow!!🎉
It’s Henry trying to marry Henry Fitzroy to Mary Tudor for me. What does he think this is, ancient Egypt?
Haha, yes that would have been a bit Cleopatra (or indeed a bit Targaryen). Thankfully it came to nothing.
@GradKat it's not the arrangement part but the incestuousnes. What rules of consanguinouity?!😅
@@melissaharris3389But I don’t think inbreeding was too uncommon, either. I agree that it seems very unacceptable to us today.
Today, illegitimacy is rife. More so than then, I assume. It could lead to banishment. So measures were taken to avoid this.
@@GradKat That close a familial link was definitely not allowed, ever. I think anyone closer than second cousin had to apply to Rome for a dispensation to marry. The church would never allow half siblings to marry. given that, even though Henry had broken with Rome, it would definitely not be viewed as acceptable by the public, or anyone else!
He used his children as pawns. He terrorized his daughters and he killed their mothers, Catherine of Aragon indirectly and Anne Boleyn, brutally. He thought only of himself and loved only himself and yet, 500 years on we’re still fascinated by him. I think that says more about us than him. Always thought-provoking, HC. Thank you.
I don't think it's "yet" we are still fascinated by him--we are still fascinated by him precisely because of those things. I'm not sure what that says about us, but we are surely curious about what made him tick.
I suppose the 'baddies' of history are always interesting, perhaps because most of use could never think of acting in the ways that they did?
@@HistoryCalling Hopefully! 😀
I’m not fascinated by that childish
monster of a king. He reminds me of Trump.
@@riandraegon556👈WOW Your TDS has burned out your brain cells!
When I was a child I read one of those nice little historical fiction novels about the Tudor dynasty probably intended for young teenagers (this one was from the perspective of the teenage Mary I) and included a helpful family tree at the beginning of the book, and I remember seeing Henry Fitzroy, and being very confused how Henry VIII could have had a son with a woman he wasn't married with since I didnt know how the birds and the bees worked yet
Oh hey, Carolyn Meyer's books? I read those when I was about ten and despite how inaccurate I later realized they were, they really sparked my interest in early-modern English history (and historical fashion lol)
Yes, those were the ones! They also helped me become interested in history
I didn't even know he existed until I was nearly an adult I think. He barely pops up in TV shows and movies about the Tudors I find and he was dispensed with very fast in The Tudors for some reason.
In the series, he was killed off as a child. Very strange
I feel you, but for me it was looking at my older half siblings family trees (school project that my parents decided we should all do) and I realized that my family tree didn’t fully match my older siblings (but mine matched with my younger brother) and my grandfathers’ names weren’t the ones listed on my tree.
I was about three or four at the time and didn’t understand divorce or the death of a parent and remarrying.
I like how much Henry doted on and paraded around Henry FitzRoy, only to kind of forget about him after his death and the birth of Edward. Henry really was like a toddler in that aspect. As soon as he found something shiny and new, he tossed out the old and went on his merry way 🙄
Yes, you could (for a time) say the same thing about how he treated Mary vs Elizabeth. I'm sure he still thought of Fitzroy of course, but his two boys occupied very different chapters of his life.
Long, high-bridged nose and small, pursed lips - no mistaking his resemblance to his father. Excellent video. Thanks, HC!
Yes, I can really see the resemblance too. I don't doubt his parentage for a minute.
Resemblance only. While being himself.
Although artists have great leeway when depicting family resemblances. The image of King Arthur on the Winchester Round Table looks very much like Henry VIII as well. Guess which monarch trying to shore up his claim to the crown commissioned that work lol.
I'm shocked that after all the documenteries I've watched on the British Monarchy, I've never heard this story nor knew King Henry had an illegitimate son that lived past childhood. Thanks for a great lesson.
Because he died at 17 without children and long before his father, he tends to be a footnote in history as he didn’t really have much of an impact on anything
Wow, I had no idea that King Henry was so open about his illegitimate son, showering him with all the gifts and titles. He seems like a nice , respectable boy, and Henry absolutely doted on him. A sad end of what could have been..
Yes, he gets airbrushed out of a lot of history, especially when it's shown onscreen, but he was pretty important in his time.
@@HistoryCalling I totally agree 😊
Sad that Henry was unable to be as loving a father to his daughters and his other illegitimate children.
I really would love to see a Tudor era story that explored more about Henry Fitzroy. It’s generally always the usual folks paid attention on like Mary and Elizabeth when it comes to Henry’s kids, which admittedly is very understandable given their reigns and importance. But much like how the show Becoming Elizabeth gave a much more prominent and proper showing for Edward VI (beyond just the usual forgotten little kid treatment), I’m hoping another Tudor story can show more of Fitzroy’s personality and character.
Yes, it would be interesting to look more in depth at how his children navigated that period of time. I really liked Becoming Elizabeth. It was such a shame it was cancelled.
@@HistoryCallingwould he had been king if he survived his illness. The idea is certainly interesting.
I've always found that drawing interesting as his shirt is open. I don't remember seeing another portrait like that.
Yes, it's an unusual decision. The only picture it reminds me of off the top of my head is the Holbein drawing labelled Anne Boleyn (not that her shirt was open!)
I've seen the portrait of Henry Fitzroy before and never really noticed him having a facial resemblance to his father. But now that you mention it, yes, I can see it. And, from what we know of Henry VIII, that seems like something that would have only increased his affection and regard for Fitzroy.
Incidentally, did you know that there was a 2000s television series in which Henry Fitzroy didn't die, he became a vampire and survived to the modern day, and currently lives in Canada helping a human woman to run a detective agency. I think it was called Blood Ties.
Yes! It's based on a series of books by Tania Huff. I read them years ago; they're really good.
I did indeed. I remember watching it, but it got cancelled pretty fast. I don't think the actor looked 17 though! :-)
@@HistoryCalling :laughs: Nooo, neither of the TV series based on Tanya Huff's books had a Henry FitzRoy who looked what would have been his age!
Gosh, 7 years old and could write that well.
The education of the time makes me even more certain that Anne Boleyn was born in 1507
I know. Makes me feel very inadequate :-)
Could the letter not have been written by someone else, his tutor for instance, who could also have added a level of maturity to the thoughts expressed there in.?
Thanks for the video and congrats on 250K subscribers
Thank you so much. 😀 I hope you enjoy hearing about Fitzroy.
I knew none of this and found your research into Fitzroy's importance to Henry, and his apparent affection for the boy, fascinating. Thank you.
Thank you for this video. I've seen one or two about Henry Fitzroy before, but this ine is a true deep dive into his life.
Thanks Helga. I hope I did the topic justice. 🙂
Me too. I am enjoying this video. I like the tone of narration.
👏👏👏 Lots going on this week, HC. A new website, 250K viewers, and a superb entry in your Tudor series. You rock! Have a great week. 🙏🏼
Yes, it's been a busy one for sure :-)
It would be So Interesting to know how Bessy felt about having to give birth to King Henry’s illegitimate son- I wonder if she was scared to death like I was when I found out that I was pregnant (and unmarried) at 23- Or maybe she was excited about getting to give birth to, at that time, the Kings only son- Anyways, THANK YOU HC for making learning about History, Especially Tudor History, Even More Fascinating! And although I already commented this on your previous post, CONGRATULATIONS on the Incredible achievement of your 250,000 subscribers and the Immediate Success of your new website!! You Absolutely Deserve Every Bit of it! Wishing you and your family Continued Blessings and Keep up the Great Work!!
Thanks Stefanie. We don't know how Bessie felt about the pregnancy, but you will be learning more about her soon 🙂
This video is packed with so much information. Very interesting. Many thanks!
You're very welcome :-)
14:21 Oh, my goodness! God has blessed History Calling by writing her channel's name in the upper left part of the sky!
I know. I'm a lucky girl 😊
I love your speech and the overall script, so pleasant to listen! It's a curious story to learn.
It seems that all Henry's children inherited his eye shape, lips and complexion. Mary and Elizabeth's portraits definitely captured the tight set of their lips and it just makes me see the resemblance more!
Yes, it would be fascinating to be able to see them all in real life and see what DNA they got from each parent (as regards their looks).
I watched one of your earlier videos which mentioned Henry Fitzroy and I thought then that he looked so much like his father! I see it in the eyes the most, but even the nose and mouth bear a strong resemblance. Thank you for this deep dive into the Duke's life! I never knew how close he came to the throne!
Thank you. Yes I see it in the eyes, nose and mouth too (and a little bit of Elizabeth as well).
"Duck Off Richemond"
Who knew they had predictive text back then?! ;) :D
LOL I love the old spellings. Like Anne Boleyn, “the moost happi”.
Haha, I know! :-)
Thank you as always HC, Richmond does have some resemblance to Henry, congratulations on starting up your websight, i for one will never get tired listening and learning from you HC, as always Thank you. ☺️👏
Thanks Simon. Yes, I see it too and def. don't doubt his paternity. Glad you like the website as well :-)
@@HistoryCalling always a plesure HC, your going from strength to strength, maybe just maybe at some point you might write a book? ☺️☺️
Well this was very satisfying Usually whenever Henry Fitzroy is mentioned he is quickly dismissed as illegitimate and passed over as a subject for scholarly inquiry And though I have seen a few videos which discuss him - I had no idea there was so much that IS known about him - even to his scholarly acumen and sporting pursuits!
I find the portrait frustrating because it doesn't show his hairline nor hair color But it's true that it does look somewhat like Henry VIII Whenever I see this portrait I wonder what would possess a person to be painted in that attire - especially in Tudor times when what one wore marked him/her out for respect and privilege Is it possible it was painted during his illness when it was realized he was going to die? I know you gave dates for the painting but (as you said) his clothing looks like a costume one might wear to bed and why be painted like that?
That's what I found puzzling as well!
It was a bizarre choice, to be sure!
It does seem an odd choice of attire to me too, but it's definitely well before his death. I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for you as to why he was depicted like this. It's not unheard of though. The drawing supposedly of Anne Boleyn also shows a woman in a nightcap.
@@HistoryCalling Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe it was a fad to be shown en dishabille! ;-}
There's a sort of sad irony that both Henry's legitimate and illegitimate son seem to have died of a similar disease - at least by definitions of the time. And both died young, before they could act on any of the advantages they had in life by virtue of their parentage.
Tbh as someone who works in education, sometimes with young boys ... Fitzroy's tutors sound like they're dealing with a standard issue teenage boy, and not coping very well with him and his nonsense, ha!
I suppose it was tough for them because they maybe couldn't discipline him too much, given who his father was and there wasn't great parental oversight at that time in his life (both parents being quite far away).
It’s pretty clear Henry was setting him up to be his heir in the event that he had no legitimate son, but I wonder if that would ever have actually happened. Would England have chosen an illegitimate son over a legitimate daughter, or would the throne have gone to someone else? There were hardly any viable male heirs at the time, so I think Mary would have likely won that battle anyway (is Edward hadn’t been born, that is)
Mary also had strong foreign backing; that might have tipped the scales in her favor.
@@happycommuter3523 she also had the backing of many powerful nobles since she had been seen as the heir for most of her life, and accepting a daughter as an heir would have been far less controversial as accepting an illegitimate child as an heir
It's tough to know. Both girls were legally illegitimate too, so an illegitimate boy might have been preferred, but as the others say below, Mary's foreign support (and the fact that so many people viewed her as legitimate, no matter what her father said) might have tipped the scales to her.
@@HistoryCalling I suppose it’s the difference between a girl born in a marriage to a powerful foreign family which was then ‘dissolved’ (although the nobles publicly supported Henry’s annulment I doubt all of them actually believed it in their hearts) and a boy born during an unquestionable adulterous and illegitimate affair
Pretty astounding that you don't know illegitimate children cannot ascend to the throne. Not now, not then, never.
I never get tired of hearing your wonderful history tales. I enjoy your videos so much I save them to do housework, so that putting away dishes or clothes becomes enjoyable, but only because of you ❤❤❤
Thank you so much. I'm happy to do what I can to make housework more tolerable :-)
I think Fitzroy looks very much like Henry, especially if you look at Henry's teenage portraits.
Yes, I really see it there too, but I can still see the little eyes and mouth in Henry's later pictures.
I think Henry Fitzroy looks only like himself.
I look forward to your videos each week. I appreciate the meticulous documentation. I did not know that you had history book recommendations. I have made several purchases that were unreadable-wonderful new resource is greatly appreciated. On a side note: I am always looking for information regarding proper English, so I found the banner regarding using different forms of relate quite interesting. Thank-you for your video!
Thank you. You mean on the Amazon storefront? Some are better than others, but I put a little one sentence review on most of them to tip people off to potential issues. The only full scale reviews I have are on Patreon.
@@HistoryCallingthank you! I will look for the tip. I will look into joining your Patreon.
He has his father’s eyes and high cheeks. I enjoyed this video on Henry Fitzroy. I didn’t know all the details of his live. Thank you for the history lesson. Congratulations on 250K subscribers.
Have you seen Firebrand? It tells the story of Henry’s last days and Catherine Parr. It got 55 rotten tomatoes. I’ll wait when I can stream it on my Apple TV.
Yes, I think it's in the eyes and nose myself. No, I was debating seeing Firebrand but it didn't look great. Maybe I'll wait for streaming like you. I'll be curious to see if Alicia Vikander can pull off an English accent, given that it's not her first language.
You’re right he does look like him. I see it around the nose and mouth. I had no idea on how the king lavished him with titles and jewels 💎
Yes, I see it too. I wish we had a good image of Bessie to compare him to though.
His little sister, Elizabeth I looked so much like him. I think Elizabeth I & Henry Fitzroy looked the most like Henry VIII.
if Henry never managed a legit male heir Fitzroy would have been given precedence over Mary and Elizabeth for the succession - although convoluted dispensations to de-bastardize him would be needed I'll guess - as the recently self-appointed head of the English Church Henry VIII could fill out the forms himself
Yes, I suspect that might have happened too. He wouldn't have needed to be legitimised though, as neither of the girls were. He might have had an uphill battle to get the throne off Mary though.
Had Fitzroy lived (past Edward), then I suspect he would have been next in line before Mary and Elizabeth.
@@HistoryCalling
Maybe he would be called the eight day monarch instead of poor Lady Jane.
History calling curious question do you have a long list of videos that you write down. I bet your list is long lol 😂 haha liked this video.
I sure do. One list in a book and then some extra ideas in my phone that get transferred to the book when I remember to do so.
The Duke of Richmond does resemble his father in that portrait, but since there’s only the one image of him, and the artist was presumably strongly motivated to show the connection, who can really say if they truly looked alike? We can't even see what color his hair was. Thank you for another enjoyable and illuminating presentation!
Yes, I wish we could see the hair colour too. It reminds me of the portrait of Anne of Cleves where her hair is all covered up (though we do at least have an eye witness account which said she was blonde).
he would have had blondish brown hair based on the colour you can see in his eye brows. Either way he was definitely not a handsome individual
I never really gave Fitzroy any thought until i recently found out that his mother is my 17th Great Grandmother! Tracing my family tree has opened my eyes on the more obscure of historical subjects. If you havent already, i would recommend tracing your ancestors, you never know who the hell you are related to lol.
I agree, genealogy is great fun. Congrats on finding such a fascinating tree as well.
congrats on 250k!! 🎉
have you ever considered doing a video on any of the spanish royals of this period? many of katharine of aragon’s family (for me, her sister juana in particular) have such interesting stories.
I have, but just as I was gearing up to do a video on one of them, another history channel did that topic and I didn't want to look like I was copying (though they've clearly copied me at certain points, so I don't know why I bother). That was quite a while ago though, so perhaps I'll work my way back around to that topic.
I also would be interested in Juana la not-so-Loca. I think she was railroaded out of her inheritance. If she wasn't mad before they locked her up, surely that would have driven her mad in the long run. I've always felt sorry for her ever since I read Prisoner of Tordesillas in my early teens.
Thanks for the excellent video. Also, Congratulations on hitting 1/4 million.
Thank you so much. :-) It's a nice round figure to have attained.
Thank you for this! Second long bio in two weeks. Well done!
You're welcome. There's another one next week too. I was on a bit of a bio kick at the time I created these and wanted to have bio videos on a few people I'd never really looked at before (excluding Katherine Howard, who I've looked at plenty, but I'd never talked about her whole life).
Congratulations for 250,000 subscribers!
Thank you so much 😀
I really love history calling you give history and the English monarchs my favorite topic particularly Henry the 8th's reign Such a Life giving story Thank you for making for making it so interesting
Subscribed to your newsletter. Thank you for the gift, it's just what I needed.
Thank you so much. I hope it helps you sidestep some bad history.
I love your videos because it gives good details
Thank you. That's one of the big aims of my channel. I don't really like the very surface-level content that I see being put out a lot of the time and try to do better than that.
Thank you for this Henry had lots of illegitimate children but you can always tell they are related to Henry by the face shape nose lips and eye shape. Not everyone knew about his legitimate son. Henry’s obsession for a legitimate son to hand down the crown to how important it was in the Tudor times
Your website looks awesome! Can't wait to see what you do with it 😊
Thank you. The main thing right now is to grow the email list to help with future projects. Shan't say more than that though! :-)
Very interesting video - thank you! I knew very little about Henry Fitzroy. I don’t agree that he looks particularly like his father in that portrait, but in any case it’s hard to tell what anybody looked like from portraiture of past ages, as the results were often designed to flatter the sitter. For example, it’s suspicious that so many lords and ladies of the time had tiny rosebud mouths (including Henry VIII) - if we’re to take their portraits as being accurate!
That's very true. A paintbrush can be a lot more flattering than a camera. I dread to think what their teeth were like as well (although Richard III's looked better than I would have expected).
13:17 : 'laulye' of course is a misspelling of 'loyal', Like other sources also identify.
Possibly he had the text dictated to him.
In those days text in non-officlal documents was not seldom written like heard anyway,
Magnificent. You're amazing.
Thank you.
When I was doing genealogical research on my family a few years ago, I discovered that my maternal grandmother’s line can be traced back to an alleged illegitimate son of Henry VIII, poet, playwright, and composer Richard Edwards. I was rallying annoyed; of all the English kings, why did I have to be (potentially) descended from Henry VIII, one of my least favorite historical figures? I kept telling myself that at least he was related to the Plantangenets, so it wasn’t all bad. On my Dad’s side, I’m descended from Duncan I of Scotland, and though MacBeth isn’t historically accurate, I can say that I have an ancestor in a Shakespearean play, and that’s really cool.
To answer your question, I think Henry Fitzroy looks more like Henry VIII than Edward VI does. I think Edward VI looks more like his mother.
What a fascinating family tree. None of mine are that interesting. I agree that Richmond looks more like Henry than Edward did. Like you, I see a lot of Jane in Edward.
Fascinating! I didn't know he lives such an interesting life!
Congratulations 🎉❤ on 250,000 subscribers. I'm so happy for you. I love your content and all the research you do for these videos.
I see a little of Henry. VIII in his son.
Thanks Holly. It was very nice to hit that benchmark. :-)
I honestly wonder why so many are still invested in this part of history, regardless of where you're from or how old you are. Personally, I cannot get enough even from a young age. I've seen all the series and movies that I can and have made my children watch with me so many times my daughter can quote quite a bit herself 😂
And then there’s Tanya Huff’s fantasy series (aka the Blood Books) which turned him into a heroic vampire. It was also turned into a television series in Canada. Never saw the tv version but the books are a very enjoyable read (not to mention the first time I heard of him.). Given how in some brief flashbacks he sounds like a melodramatic if not spoiled teenager, it looks like she nailed his character pretty well.
I loved the books, and the fact that he was a romance novelist...he would have plenty of experience for material. I never quite liked Vicky, though. And I think I only watched one episode of the show, and found that they'd changed things so much from the books that I never watched any other episodes.
I remember that show! It wasn't great I'm afraid and as I recall, was very quickly cancelled.
@@HistoryCalling the books are much better.
I've always wondered how would Henry Fitzroy's relationship be with Edward VI had he lived long enough to see his half sibling grow up and eventually become King. Would he try to contest for the crown or would they be in good terms... ugh, super fascinating!!
You do wonderful work! I absolutely love how you debunk some "facts* we always thought we knew or confirm them! You can always tell when people are doing what they love!
Fun fact: Did you know, Empress Eugenie(Wife of Napoleon iii) found childbearing extraordinarily difficult. An initial miscarriage in 1853, after A three-month pregnancy, frightened and soured her.
No, but that's very sad. It must have been terrifying to be pregnant in an era with such limited medical care (at least as we would define it).
While researching my ancestry, I perused many obituaries of young women who had died in childbirth.
@@LindaHarwardThat’s so heartbreaking. It kind of defeats the whole purpose of it. ☹️ After viewing these videos, I often think to myself how much more prominent death was within royal, even wealthy, households before penicillin and other advancements in medicine. I can only imagine what is what like for the average family.😢
Well, child birth was considered a life-threatening event in times past. Those poor mothers.
@@Dropitlikeitshotspot Or even before the washing of hands! Which in many cases would have maybe negated the need for antibiotics. Also the absurd confinement they did for noble women, where they basically fattened them up like geese and kept them virtually unable to move or see sunlight for months! I am convinced there were more dangerous pregnancies and births for rich women than for the poor - who still had to exercise and whose diet consisted of more than just meat with a side of meat washed down with wine.
"Entirely beloved" ..... Hmmm - heard that recently - Wolf Hall I think it was. Cromwell and Wolsey discussing Wolsey's downfall.
"Ah", Wolsey says - "...my entirley beloved Cromwell".
I wonder if it was one of his catchphrases? 🤭
Thanks for this - I love learning new stuff - especially when some of the blanks are filled in. Great job HC.
I'm not sure anyone was 'entirely beloved' in the Tudor court. :-) Glad you enjoyed the video :-)
Right you are, young man! Indeed, "Wolf Hall." I just rewatched that episode a couple of days ago. Hope all is well with you. 🙏🏼
@@stephencarrillo5905 Hey, Chum! All ok here - I trust you are similarly disposed?. In fact, I'm so Ok, that she who must be obeyed & I am off on a sojourn to Salamanca to visit chums for a few days. 😄
I didn't notice a resemblance of Henry Fitzroy to Henry VIII, although Holbein never painted him, as far as I know.
Thank you so very much for uploading. I thoroughly enjoy your uploads as much as I enjoy reading Phillipa Greggory books. Listening to your renditions as I crochet blankets, is probably better. Thank you to your Patreons too*****
Thank you so much. I wish I had the knack of crocheting (or knitting, or sewing), but sadly I've never ben very creative in that way. I literally struggle to sew a button on. They really should have taught us those basic skills in school actually. Oh well :-(
@@HistoryCalling I'm 'ancient' being taught cross-stitch, early Primary. I picked-up crochet around 5 yrs ago. Combining these crafts alongside weaving panels - I like to create wall-hangings. Always struggled with knitting, though.
Keep uploading 'HistoryCalling'*****
I have a 7th great grandma, Jannet Blunt, who was born 16 May 1689, Dumfries, Dumfries-shire, Scotland.
He father's mane was George Blunt. But I haven't researched his parents yet
I don't know if they're any relation, but I can tell you that I have a real soft spot for Dumfries. I drive through it nearly every year going to/from the boat at Cairnryan and always stop off for tea in the M&S there and a walk along the river. It's a lovely part of the world.
Genealogy is fun. My great grandfather's middle name was Blount. It would be interesting if his line leads to ol' Bessie Bount.
29:42 it's like a carbon copy... I also noticed that he looks a lot like his grandfather Henry the 7th... It's pretty amazing that they're so vivid for being the age that that is... Thank you so much for doing these videos I appreciate it so much.
All I can say is Henry Tudor, aka Henry VIII, is the benchmark of reaping what you sow.
He was so obsessed with having a son, having power, etc that his wives and children were treated badly.
Henry’s health suffered, etc.
Karma can be good or kick you in the backside
Henry Fitzroy's health or Henry VIII's? Henry Fitzroy was a healthy young man until he developed what appears to be a form of tuberculosis. Henry VIII's health certainly did suffer, although not as a direct result of his very bad behavior to his family.
I think he looks more like Prince Arthur than Henry.
Thank you for another excellent video. Especially about the side people that we rarely hear about.. Very well researched.
Yes, I see what you mean about Arthur. Glad you enjoyed the video. I have quite a few Tudor figures that I really must get to, even after all this time.
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE DONATION CRYSBLAC. Hope you enjoyed hearing about Fitzroy. He's a bit overlooked these days, but was very important in his time.
@@HistoryCalling I certainly did, you have me becoming slightly obsessed 🤩 😅. I didn’t realize he was so accomplished and as highly regarded by him. Thank YOU for all your hard work, your appreciated! ❤️🙌🏽
No problem. I'm so glad you liked it and I've sparked an interest in Fitzroy. Watch this evening's video too - it's related to him as well. ;-)
I really enjoyed this, thank you. I sometimes wonder if Fitzroy lived, what would have happened between him and his sisters after Edwards death.
congrats on 250K - you deserve it !!
I was wondering if there's any way I can tell when I first subscribed to your channel - I can't remember
Thank you. I'm sorry; to the best of my knowledge there's no way of telling. You could look back through my catalogue and see when the earliest video you remember watching was released perhaps?
Thank you for that I knew very little of Henry Fitzroy. Both Henry's look similar to each other.
You're welcome. He's an interesting figure. A real 'what if' character from history.
Great video i love read and watching tudor history but i haven't read much about henry Fitzroy so thank you for your video i have also signed up to your newsletter 😊
So much for enduring fatherly love from Henry VIII. Only one child stayed consistent in his good Graces ..Edward VI. Henry VIII in my opinion the cruelest king most powerful completely void of empathy besides that tyrant King John.
Hmm, as cruel kings go I would put R3 up there too, but that's just me. Admittedly the Ricardians (of which you might be one of course) would hate me for saying that.
@@HistoryCallingthere could be legitimate historical proof that R3 stomped kittens to death and the Ricardians would still be like ‘oh but those kittens were born out of wedlock, and Richard had his reasons!’ Lol
Only a citizen follower here HC, but I completely put R3 in the same league as the dastardly H8 and incompetent and malicious John.
@@HistoryCalling no. Not a fan of Richard either. 😆
I've never been able to get past him attending the judicial murder of his stepmother. Maybe it's just me, but there's something about that that just seems so mean and vicious.
I suppose he'd been ordered to by his father. I don't know that he would have opted to go himself. She was also his wife's cousin after all. It was all very awkward.
He was a teenage child, possibly already sick with tuberculosis. It wasn’t his choice
Hey HC!! Great video and amazing research as always - I love your Tudor videos.
I have a video request: Would you consider doing a video on The Queens of England & Britain who never were? I’m talking about the mothers of kings/queens regnants who never were queens themselves? Like for example: Joan of Kent, Mary Bohun, Cecily Neville, Margaret Beaufort, Anne Hyde, Augusta of Saxe-Gotha or Princess Victoria? (As I’m typing this I realized just how many almost-queens England and UK had). You have already done a similar video with the Princes of Wales who never became kings so I think you would do this one greatly :)
Congratulations on your website! I will check It out as soon as I am done with my university madness I'm going through haha (all I can say is that physics makes me cry 😅)
Yikes! Physics made me cry even at school. I could never have done it at university. Well done you :-)
An amazing channel you should be on main stream tv as you do an amazing job with your videos i would tune in weekly
It's easy, from our modern perch, to see Henry's regard for his children as pure narcissism. While I can't speak for or against his actual inner feelings, everything recorded by history shows how he saw his children and treated them as projections of himself and of his own designs and ambitions. They were, at any given moment, whoever he said they were. As a narcissist, he crafted his own reality and bent the world to it, and gaslit an entire nation- always starting at home.
Yes, I see what you mean. He certainly didn't really care about they wanted from their lives (at least not in Mary's case). Of course that was quite a normal way to view one's children in that era, so I guess we have to make some allowances for that.
What in the Ancient Egypt is that proposed marriage between FitzRoy and Mary
Haha, that's pretty much what someone else said too. Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess. The Spanish Hapsburgs wouldn't have even blinked at that.
@@HistoryCalling Especially with Henry's argument for his first annulment being that he was Katherine's sister, when here he's considering marrying actual siblings. (Although I come from the horse racing world, where horses are only considered half siblings if they share a mother, and considered unrelated if they share a father.)
I know. The smell of hypocrisy really stinks. I'd never heard that about horses. How strange.
@@HistoryCallingI think even the Spanish Hapsburgs would have raised an eyebrow or three at marrying half siblings. Not that it would have stopped them. You don’t get a third eyebrow from marrying outside your family after all
@@HistoryCallingThe Hapsburg's practiced cousin marriage and uncle/niece marraige but not half sibling marriage, which was definitely out of bounds
I love your accent. It's so sweet 🤩 I love your content 💕 I am from in Princeton WV but my ancestors are half Welsh 😊
Thank you so much. I've only ever been to the Princeton in New Jersey, but I'm sure yours is beautiful, as is Wales where I've been many times.
Interesting to speculate what would have happened if the Duke of Richmond had lived into the years after the Reformation and his father's death. Would he have chosen to align with his Catholic half sister or his Protestant half siblings? Having another, adult son of Henry VIII around could have made the succession questions even bloodier than they actually were. Good material for novelists!
Very interesting question. Like Mary he was raised a Catholic, but he would also have been her main contender for the throne, so I don't know if he would have allied with her at all. He might have tried to oust her.
@@HistoryCalling It would definitely have been more complicated, with more necks in peril!
Yeah Bessie never did anything of record anyway to be in Henry's disfavor. So yes Henry Fitzroy got the best of Henry's paternal affections.
That or maybe he had some other kinds of help from god (or Allah in Arabic. Or god in other languages too like from known Hebrew dialects too) at the time.
This was interesting. I knew something of Fitzroy, but not all that you presented.
I wonder about the tuberculosis issue, however. It seems that both Tudor boys died of it at similar ages. Has any research been done on this? Was there something physiological that predisposed them to TB?
I know that living conditions, sanitation, and nutrition were appalling at that time, and this surely had an impact, but I've always been struck by the parallel between the boys.
I think it was probably just bad luck and a common disease. That's just my initial thought though.
Yay. You hit 1/4 Million Subs. Not long 'til 1/2 Mil then onwards & upwards. Henry Fitzroy. Hmm - before watching, all I know is he was the only recognized illegitimate son of Henry 8 and that he died young. (I could be wrong about the 'recognized' bit though😚)
Thanks Chris. Gosh half a million feels a very long way off though. It's taken 3 and a half years to get this far. You're not wrong about the recognised bit :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thanks. It's a heck of an acievement whichever way you look at it. You are most certainly doing something right, right? It's been great watching the channel grow from I think about Week 4 I think I subbed!! Proud of you for sticking with it 😊
Yes, you're one of my longest and best subscribers. Thank you so much for sticking with me. There's almost no one here from that time now.
Hello HC! He seems like a bit of bratty kid but also kind of sounds like he was influenced by the kids around him. i get the feeling he would’ve been better learning one on one.
Yes, his school-friends really don't seem to have been the best bunch.
@@HistoryCalling bad apples for sure!!
Quite literally Peer Pressure!!
Another great video HC. I do find it quite interesting how much they contradicted themselves back in that time. Even though today we still see it happening with the politicians of today. Not sure of them looking alike as I would need to see a picture with both of them at the same time. Thanks HC I will be going and looking at your website.
Thanks Vernon. I think the likeness is in the nose, eyes and small mouth, but it would be lovely to have a proper picture of Bessie to compare him to too. Oh well. Hope you like the site :-)
@@HistoryCalling Thanks, I just realized something one of my great grandmothers name was also Bessie
I really like your input im thses videos. You defenitely give us food for thought at the same time. Thank you, I'll be taking a history course soon. I will defenitely " keep learning". Thanks so much! ❤
I’m late watching this as I’m on holiday in France. A very good video as usual 😊
It would have been interesting to see how he would have navigated the turmoil of his half siblings reigns. It is at least nice to see Henry actually behaving well toward one of his children.
I wonder what Mary I's relationship with him was like.
I doubt they met often, but they must have run into each other at court at least once. If Mary didn't have any hard feelings towards Elizabeth prior to their father's death, I doubt she had hard feeling's towards Fitzroy. Though I wonder if he had hard feelings towards her.
She did refer to him as her brother, I can tell you that much, but beyond that I don't know. He was always a threat to her position (just as Elizabeth would be).
Very interesting. Thank you for making this video.n
How sad that in death Richmond's father seems to have felt no true grief nor even attempted to immortalize his memory out of parental duty.
It was certainly a very odd reaction. Maybe Henry didn't feel it was appropriate to grieve publicly for an illegitimate son, or though that people would say it was a punishment for what he'd done to Anne?
@@HistoryCalling Both those explanations are valid. Henry's treatment of Elizabeth and Mary makes me wonder, however, if Henry truly loved any of his children as a father or if he viewed them in a more pragmatic way.
I find it odd that Fitzroy wasn't living with his wife by the age of 17. Is it possible Henry was delaying as he slightly regretted the marriage and wanted the option of dissolving the marriage left on the table? It also feels like Henry might have thought Fitzroy had let him down by dying so young and was therefore undeserving of a better funeral and burial.
It was at least said that the reason for the delayed consummation is that involvement in a sexual relationship too soon was that it was deleterious to his ability to father a child. I don't think Henry was probably too eager to have another marriage being dissolved in the family at the time.
Hmm, interesting question. I don't know, but it's possible given that things were heading south with Anne Boleyn, who was Mary's cousin. I have also thought that they could have lived together a little sooner, but I'm sure Henry VIII had his reasons.
My guess is Henry was being cautious, remembering how his older brother Arthur died months after marrying Catherine of Aragon around that age.
All this effort towards an illegitimate son should not be seen as strange for the time.
Keep in mind that Henry VII (father of Henry VIII) was born from the union to settle the War of the Roses (the civil war to settle succession rights among the cadet branches of the Plantagenet dynasty).
This was a real issue of stability for the kingdom. Henry VIII understood that succession needed to be clear, orderly, and sinple.
I am not excusing his actions against his many wives. Although, he probably wasn't the complete monster he's made out to be. Kings were still expected to lead armies, so he needed a strong male heir.
I'm sure he was hedging his bets on an illegitimate line, in the event that he couldn't secure a legitimate one for long... which is why he took great care over his illegitimate son.
If he needed a king to succeed him, because his wife (or wives) couldn't provide a proper prince, he would uave a strong backup the other nobles would follow.
Of course, if he did have a legitimate male heir after all, he wanted to kake sure that the illegitimate heir would be content as a ranking noble.
Henry VII was born of a marriage between Lancastrians; it was his son Henry VIII who united Lancaster and York via the marriage of his father with Elizabeth of York. His desire for a male heir was understandable, but if he had wanted the succession to be clear, orderly, and simple, he had a very odd way of going about it. He successively made his first two children illegitimate. It's only his good luck that Jane Seymour actually had a son, although at least it was clear that Jane was his actual wife, since Katherine of Aragon had died and he had had Anne Boleyn executed.
I don't know how anyone back then lived a full life, with disease and redruming (murder) were rampant everywhere. I lived there for 3 yrs, (88-90 AF husband) so I fell in love with the country and it's people. Always intrigued about their lives. The Yorkshire Dales is my favorite part of the country for me.
Thank you for sharing ❤️
I actually thought at first that the portrait of henry FitzRoy was of henry the 8th. LOL!!!!
Awesome informative content
Wonderful! That was a very "relatable" slip. One might even call it "endearing", which could be an adequate substitute for "relatable" in this script (at min 15:02) lol. All joking aside, brilliant job. Your mix of knowledge and wholeheartedness is why a quarter of a million of us (and growing) spend some of our unrecoverable time being enriched by the results of your labor (Yes, American). Thank you 🤗
PS: Some royalty--free-background music (no pun intended) would make your lovely content even more enjoyable..
Thank you so much. I actually had music in my very early videos, but it was just too labour intensive to keep sourcing it and adding it in. Also, I'm not sure RUclips's music can be used off platform and I also publish my videos on Patreon.
Regarding the idea of Henry marrying Bessie Blount after the death of Tailbois and having Fitzroy retroactively "legitimized." Don't underestimate the virginity obsession.
As you point-out, Henry is elevating Fitzroy, but still protecting the rights of potential future legitimate royal boys. (It's clear he would prefer THAT outcome.)
Hindsight is 20/20. Would marrying Blount have been preferable to cutting-off the heads of wives and everything else? Absolutely. Henry, at this point, is still hopeful.
The hope is not just an heir-at-any-cost, but to marry and impregnate a virgin. Bessie had been married to Tailbois for years and had born him children. Not good royal PR.
Edward, Prince of Wales, the Black Prince married a widow. Henry II married a divorcée with two previous children. Edward IV married a widow. Emma of Normandy, widow of one English king, married another. Henry IV's second wife was a widow. Richard III's wife was previously married. And, of course, Henry himself married the distinctly non-virginal Catherine Parr--and their wedding contract specifies the position of their future children.
Marrying a widow with children by a previous husband might have reassured her royal husband of her ability to bear him a child as well. However, I think you are right that after Anne's execution, Henry still preferred to marry a virgin, but that, in my opinion, was more due to his personal inclinations than to tradition. As you say, he was still hopeful.
My 13x Great grandfather was Roland de Velville, first son of Henry VII and elder brother of Arthur Tudor and Henry Tudor (Henry VIII)