What is your opinion of Jane as a person? Let me know below and remember you can also find me at: Website (with FREE DOWNLOAD): www.historycallingofficial.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/historycalling Amazon storefront: www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling Instagram: instagram.com/historycalling/
It's so hard to say. We'll never know the true Jane unless some letters she wrote turn up. Stranger things have happened. Of all Henry's wives, Jane is the enigma. With the lack of evidence I just imagine her as she is often protrayed - meek, quiet, religious, unassuming, observant, dull etc. Some like to bash Jane, call her cold, calculating, evil etc especially diehard Anne Boleyn fans but we just don't know and if you want someone to blame then look to Henry. Easy.
Yes, I agree. She's hard to pin down. I don't think she was evil, but I'm also not convinced she was as meek as some would have us believe. In the end though I think you're correct that ultimate blame lies with Henry. If he'd been faithful to either of his first two wives, none of what followed would have happened.
@@HistoryCalling Jane often falsely gets the credit for Mary's reconciliation with Henry. In reality Jane did next to nothing there and even less concerning Elizabeth. I imagine she may have wanted to help/intercede but knew she had learned and observed not to push and provoke Henry and his temper. Feelings were still raw.
Having majored in history, I definitely appreciate the critical approach you take in assessing sources. One of the most valuable skills you can gain from studying history is recognizing that biases and inaccuracies creep up often even in primary sources, and that nothing should blindly be taken at face value without some corroborating sources.
One of my favorite history professors always reminded us to treat every author (of a source) as a salesperson; they are all trying to sell us their point of view. Life would be a little easier if more people realized that!
I share your opinion of Jane, she knew what she was doing and played it perfectly to, as you put it, step over Anne. It seems to me that there is much more complexity to who this Woman was, underestimating her intelligence. Thank you for your work.
So many people had thoughts about the goings on around Jane and it's frustrating we'll never have anything from Jane herself. From an art history perspective, Holbein was brilliant for his ability to capture so much of a person's personality and countenance in straightforward portraiture. It's interesting that Jane's portrait has the same essence that we end up with as a result of her (lack of) historical voice: unassuming to the point of blankness. It allows us to put our own thoughts and interpretations on her, and i must say mine is very similar to yours. If she had reservations about stepping over a headless ex wife, donned in her jewels, we'll never know.
The supposedly meek-and-mild Jane seemed to win the battle of history until recently. Here in the twenty-first century, Jane's "obey and serve" doesn't play NEARLY as well as Anne's "let them grumble"! Perhaps this change of biases is unfair to both women.
Yes, it's always interesting to see how modern sensibilities affect our interpretation of historical figures. Until comparatively recently Jane's approach would have been much more favoured.
You are right in another comment I wrote the same thing, this woman was bad news she didn't really need her brothers to tell her anything she probably proposed to them to help her and they did it gladly I believe in this she was her own woman she was a snake knew what she wanted and how to get it by any means possible and had a great hand in Anne's downfall and she monstrously not only walked over the headless bloodied body of another woman but its chilling how she and Henry got engaged the follwing day ofAnne s death and married 10 days later as if nothing had happened Im glad this woman died in her hour of triumph it all lasted her her less than a year and a half leaving behind marriage crown and baby prince all dust and ashes
Great video, HC! She's always been somewhat of an enigma to me as she died so young, was always adored by Henry, so much so that he was buried with her. I feel like there's so much about her that we may never know sadly. I do think there was definitely some rivalry between her and Anne, and maybe she played the loving, gentle queen as she's gone down in history. Yet I get the feeling she was smarter than she appeared and knew exactly what game she was playing after witnessing the way Henry treated Catherine and what he did to Anne. I think there's so much more about the person that she was. Her entire family had done or could gain a great deal from Henry, and so that also gives me more reason that there was more than meets the eye with her. I do believe that Henry truly did love her. But most of we now know about her comes from the one and only Eustace Chapuys! What a guy! Thank you for always giving us food for thought... 🌟🫶🏽
I believe Jane was complicit. I do think that at the beginning she warded him off, but her greedy family (as were the Boleyn’s) saw an opportunity to advance. How many times can you tell Henry “No”? He did not take that for an answer. Maybe she was afraid, we’ll never know. It is a bit of irony that her marriage did indeed take her life. You never disappoint HC. Thank you again for your hard work. Look forward to all things you research. Have a great week!😊
@@HistoryCallingI agree, I am watching your channel more now as I find your voice comforting and the topics not at all contemporary, so it is a balm to my frazzled American nerves at this time.
👏👏❤ Thanks for ushering in the new season of "Wolf Hall", HC. I agree with you; Jane's an enigma. In Tudor times, I find it hard to believe anyone who spent time in court was capable of "innocence" when it came to plots and schemes. She may not have possessed great intellect but I'm sure she was savvy. Look forward to any WH-related content. Have a great week. 🙏🏼
You're welcome. Yes, I thought something Tudory was unusually appropriate this week, esp. as Jane is appearing in the new series (though of course we all know her days are numbered).
Great video! I just finished watching the first episode of The Mirror and the Light, so a video about Jane Seymour was perfect timing. I think Jane set her cap at Henry just as Anne had. Queen of England was the greatest role a woman could have and Jane wanted to win that title for herself.
I'm thinking that she played the hand that she was dealt which is all she could do once Henry became interested. That puts her somewhere between the two extremes that have been portrayed. She isn't my favourite of the wives either. I feel great sympathy for Catharine Howard and rather admire Kathryn Parr and wish she'd steered well clear of Jane's brother!
I never felt that Jane was the "Good wife" or the meek, gentle innocent. I have read Karen Lindsey's book "Divorced Beheaded Survived," which definitely reinforced my opinion. She is right, in that there were two major differences between Anne Boleyn's usurpation of Katharine of Aragon and Jane's own of Anne. First, Anne was young enough to conceive again when Henry abandoned her, and secondly, it was clear that Anne was to be killed, not merely discarded. Jane knew what she was doing - unlike Anne, she never tried to get away from Henry, even when it was clear he wanted to bed her. Jane's one and only accomplishment was the birth of Edward VI, but even that could have been a failure - after all, Katharine of Aragon and Henry's first son, Henry Duke of Cornwall, only lived 52 days. The only reason Jane is remembered fondly by Henry at all, is that Edward lived. Had he died at some point before Henry's death, I doubt very much that Henry would have been so attached to her memory.
I don't think you give Jane enough credit. For one thing, she may not have initially thought Anne Boylen would be killed. She may have actually been lead to belive Anne was guilty, or by the time she realized what was happening, it was too late to back out. Or possibly it wasn't about Jane, Anne was dying with or without her. Better that she become queen than someone else. She also succeeded in reconciling Henry and Mary and treated Elizabeth kindly. She was also the wife out of the child-bearing ones that took the longest to get pregnant. Henry even said once he was worried he would have no sons by Jane. And yet, Jane still managed to keep her place as queen and head firmly on her shoulders. She was smart enough to not cling tightly to either faction. She both pleaded for mercy for the Pilgrims, and allied herself with the reformers via her sister's marriage to Cromwell's son. It seemed she set up the chess board rather well.
Anne was the first queen consort to ever be executed in English history. It was in no way clear that she would die. Jane likely thought and was right to think she would be divorced, set aside and sent to a convent as was the way royal wives were traditionally discarded. Jane was three months into being pursued by Henry, why would she think he would execute a woman he pursued for nearly a decade for her? It wasn’t until Anne’s miscarriage on the day of Catherine’s funeral that Anne’s downfall really began. Jane could not have possibly known that Mark Smeaton would confess to sleeping with Anne
I'd argue that Henry's idolization of her had more to do with her being 'the one that got away'. I think if Catherine of Aragon had died in childbirth with her son, even with his early death, Henry would have treated her the same way. It's easier to idolize an ideal than a person. Since Jane was dead, while giving him a son no less, she made a perfect almost blank canvas for Henry to color however he wished.
if u really believe whoreboleyn would have gone on to have healthy babies at 36 and after 2 or 3 misscarriages had she lived I got a bridge to sell you secondly jane was 27 and still unmarried ofc she would want marriage to henry and be queen and third nobody liked whoreboleyn or considered her marriage legal anyway and jane was catholic u conviniently ignore all theese facts
Thank you for covering her story dear HC 😊. I think after two "difficult" wives, Henry wanted the opposite and he found it in Jane. Above all she gave him the longed-for son. This made her the "love" of his life 😉. I'd love to know what would happen if she had lived longer? Would she have another son? Would he be bored of her? At least her status would have been secured due to having Edward and I think he wouldn't marry again, only taking mistresses. I would love to know what she thought about marrying a man who just killed the previous wife. Alas, we will never know. Great video and very well narrated. Thank you 🙏
Thank you so much for the donation Anita. That's very kind of you. Yes, I would be fascinated to know how she would have fared had she lived. What would she have been like as a regent for Edward for instance (if she'd been allowed to be his regent that is)?
She would have turned a blind eye to Henry's dalliances I am sure, and probably followed Queen Catherine's example as queen. Not as bright or as guiding, but perhaps a steadying influence and a devoted wife to him.
I've watched so many documentaries and I noticed that you always dig up something I haven't heard before! That makes your channel so special to me! Thank you! (On another note: I hope one day we'll get a video on Christopher Marlowe! 😁🍀)
It's hard to know how Jane Seymour was motivated, partly as she died to early. She was lucky in the sense of her position in history, in the tomb with Henry (urgh) and all that, but a fat lot of good it did her whilst alive. I think the whole boiling of them, especially Henry himself were concerned mostly with No. 1. Your channel is SO great. Really impressive. 🌟👍
Thanks William. Yes, I see what you mean about apparently being Henry's favourite and getting to be buried with him. Not much use when you die in your 20s.
I think she was brought up and taught to be an obedient lady. And I think she was taught how to get the man her family wanted. I doubt she was truly allowed to explore who she was. Jane was told who she was. It’s still today a practice for family’s who desire power & wealth to marry their children to whomever would be a great advantage to their most important desires. I do think she was still a pawn by all those who influenced the king or those around him. Henry was probably directed by those around him to notice the pious Jane. It took him awhile to even see her. What happened to change that? I believe Henry the VIII was just as manipulated as he manipulated others. Teaching Jane how to be attractive by her actions. Henry probably at this point craved that, and the simplicity of a wife who obeyed. He had several strong wives that did not let him get away with things that were important to them. And they paid for it. Deception is everywhere power & money come together. There is always someone who believes they deserve more than every one else, and will do whatever it takes to put themselves where they want to be. History has shown us it isn’t just a king or queen that holds power, it’s also those around them whispering in their ears.
If Jane was loved by her family and had any self respect, she would have never married Henry, because the abuse suffered by his first two wives and his mistresses.
I don't know that they didn't love her, but in that time period becoming the Queen was the absolute best a woman could do. Almost no family would have turned their noses up at that and it could seen as them trying to help her have the best life.
It was the times and daughters were used as pawns and were not that loved but she was sly hypocrite and conniving of the worst kind It speaks volumes that her sister Elizabeth Seymour widow Lady Urtaugh said she ll never ask anything to her sister even though she had problem with her jointure she wrote to Cromwell instead and she ended marrying his son Ifthis woman said such a thing about her sister she probably had good reasons that we don't know that woman was bad news she walked over the bloodied headless body of another woman to get what she wanted her ambitious brothers were behind her but in this in a way she was her own woman and knew what she wanted and how to get it that's what and I'm glad she died suddenly in her hour of her triumph she scarcely enjoyed her marriage her crown and her baby prince all lasted less than a year and half
Women were supposed to enhance their family. So we're sons. You made good marriages because it advanced the family. They didn't have that much choice in it. And when you involve royalty, that ups the stakes a lot. How do you think the family would affairs if she had turned him down?
I think at that time, you didn’t progress in court without knowing how to play the game. She was very complicit in all that happened. A tragic end, but also a fascinating ‘what if’. What would have happened had she not died? Would Henry have looked elsewhere as he was wont to do? Would there have been more children if she survived? The entire history could have been very different. Thanks for another great video!
I mean, it's not hard to see why Henry chose Jane as his next wife. She was submissive, and she had a womb. That's it. She fulfilled that purpose by giving him a son and then having the decency to die before he outgrew her. It's harsh but more or less true.
I always feel bad for Jane, like her life seemed the best out of all the wives but imagine how scared Jane was, (Henry threatening to do to Jane what he did to Anne if Jane got in the way and anything else that might of been lost to history) and you finally give your husband a heir you need but only a week or so later you die because of problems after the birth like she had to be scared when Henry threatened her and throughout her pregnancy. Anyway I love this account and these videos
Hmm, that's an interesting thought (about whether her life was the best). I always think that Anne o f Cleves was the luckiest myself, but I can see your argument for Jane. I agree though that being married to Henry must have been pretty awful at that point. The only wife who ever really got the fun, kind husband was Catherine of Aragon (and obviously that guy had an expiration date of c. 1528).
I am wildly inteigued by other European royalties of the time, such as Spain. Would you be able to do a video on the subject? Perhaps it would give an opportunity to weave in context to existing videos. Cheers!
I think you're going to like my answer to this one. I actually had a video on Spanish royalty lined up for today, then realised that Wolf Hall was coming out and so slotted this one in in its place. So there's some Spanish royalty coming soon :-)
I don’t blame either Jane or Anne for their roles in the their predecessors’ downfalls tbh. You can’t say no to the king, and once Henry was done with a woman, he was done. If it hadn’t been Anne, it would’ve been someone else. If it hadn’t been Jane, it would’ve been someone else. I don’t condone Anne being so vicious towards Katherine or Mary though. With Jane, she at least seemed to leave Elizabeth (the child of her former enemy) alone.
Yes, I think you're right that Henry would have found another woman even if Anne and Jane had managed to hold off and like you I really can't overlook how terrible Anne was to Catherine and Mary.
I've always gotten a "mean girl" vibe from Jane, LOL. At the very least, she knew nothing good would come of Anne. Jane would have known about the abysmal treatment of Catherine of Aragon. She would have had to have known that Anne probably wouldn't fare much better. It's my guess that she knew that Anne was in for it, but--it all had to happen in order for her to marry Henry ;-)
I'd love to know what she thought was going to happen actually. She may have thought initially that Anne wouldn't actually be killed (it was unprecedented event after all), but we'll never know.
My main opinion of her kinda reverberates through all of these women - that in the context of both the time, social class, and proximity, she was not all that bad. She was surely under a lot of pressure for the last years of her life and whether she was willingly complicit or not, she is still a product of all of that. I can't imagine doing what she did to get a spouse, especially at the expense of Anne, but I also don't live in the 1530s. There's a lot of stuff that I do that these women would likely be horrified by if they could peer at me 500 years in the future but that the 21st century views as very normal and I do think that goes both ways. (Another, admittedly extreme example of this was how normal it was for Egyptian Pharaohs to marry their own daughters, but by today's standards that's not only hugely taboo but a crime in most countries.)
Jane Seymour has always been my favorite wife. She intrigues me because although she is seen as the meek, obiedent one, it seems she was the one to best set the chess board. She appeased the Cathloics by advocating for Mary and mercy for the Pilgrims of Grace. Her brothers also secured her safety amoung the reformists, and she allied herself with Cromwell through the marriage of his son and her sister. This tied the success of Jane and her kids to the success of Cromwell's son and grandchildren. If Cromwell wanted his grandkids related to the future king (or queen) of england, he would protect Jane and her children. It is a little disturbing that she was willing to step over Anne's body to become queen, but you have to remember that Anne was prepared to step over both Katherine of Aragon and Mary's bodies to secure her own position. Atleast Jane wasnt malice enough to go after the children. Besides, Jane may not have realized Anne would be killed. The current precedent was banishment from court. After Jane realized Anne was about to be killed, she wouldn't have been in a position to save her. It would have been too dangerous to back out of her relationship with the King. She wasn't a saint(though I don't find her any worse than Anne), but she seems so much more politically savy than she gets credit for.
@HistoryCalling Did you spot the other stained glass images there such as those figures from the Wars of the Roses? Very beautiful ❤️ Some are the only imagined depictions we have of certain figures such the the window depicting Isabel Neville.
Thank you for this really interesting video--really appreciated! An enigmatic character for sure. (It may be that other commentators have noted this, but in the family tree for the Seymours, Jane's mother is given as Elizabeth rather than Margery.)
What with Wolf Hall Parte Ye Seconde just starting, I had a brainstorm at the weekend after your post and guessed this (or something very similar, like Thomas Howard or any of his cronies) was on its way. Oh - those sinners at Wolf Hall (said someone, one). Look forward to it. Thanks for your input as always.
@@HistoryCalling THAT will be worth waiting for - seems like a long minute ago I asked about TC - and I ain't talking about Top Cat, either 😆 Reading D McC's 'Bio' on TC right now. Fascinating theorisation.
I can just imagine the voodoo Jane did on Anne! Oh I know it people today do that mind-blowing stuff! I'll bet they paid someone to tip Anne off so she walked right in on them! Infamous!
I feel like the only reason why jane kept quiet and didn’t question or disobey any of Henry’s orders was because she was waiting to give birth to a son so she would be safe and then she will start influencing him But she sadly died in childbirth complication and didn’t have a chance to fully shine like the others before in my opinion she was very clever and smart for playing the waitting game (that is how i picture jane i don’t really know for sure if it’s accurate 😭)
There were so many customs surrounding kings/monarchs not attending their children’s christenings, and apparently funerals for their spouses. Can you make a video about these rules/customs, and why they may have come about? Events that one might expect a monarch to attend, but custom/tradition said otherwise.
I imagine she was very good at compartmentalising. Actually given that she couldn't remember Anne, that probably helped. It might have been harder for Mary.
@@HistoryCalling IHS is almost as ubiquitous in liturgical furniture as "INRI," surprisingly even in Protestant churches. As a youngster, unaware that these acronyms were from the Latin, I was puzzled over their meaning.
I think it's very difficult to read into the minds of historical figures especially when we have so little of their own writings, diaries for example. Jane survived in a court where survival wasn't easy.
Considering how ambitious her brothers Thomas and Edward were, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a family trait and she was just as ambitious but able to hide it behind a mask of meekness. So I also have doubts of her innocence in the whole thing
With essentially all Henry’s wives, once they got mixed up with him, they had little to no choice and had to make the best of it. However, Jane Seymour seems to me to be probably the least fun of the lot.
There's an interesting discussion to be had there actually. If you see my video on Anne's Holbein portrait I note that Henry criticised her body rather than her face and the Flander's Mare comment was a much later invention. I'm not sure contemporaries thought of her as being plain nearly so often as we think they did.
Jane is also my least favorite of Henry’s Queens. I of course didn’t know her but it seems to me that she knew what she was doing & was not as innocent as some believe. Just the fact that she married King Henry only 11 days after Anne Boleyn was executed, is quite unsettling. Some may argue saying she or any one else could not refuse the King’s advances is not true. Everyone has the right to make choices in their lives realizing the consequences.
If someone is saying "Jane was his favorite wife because he is burried with her!!!" .... yeah guess what, what were his other options? Get burried with Cathrine of Aragon? Jump into the grave with Anne Boleyn or Cathrine Howard? Anna of Cleve and Cathrine Parr were still alive when he died. Maybe she could be his favorite wife because she gave birth to Edward and she died before Henry would fall out of love. And not because they are burried together
If only we had a fraction of the Round 2 Anne-Jane battle, compared to all the documentation of Round 1- Catherine vs. Anne- of which so much exists. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a handful of late 1535/early 1536 letters from each? I'll bet the servants' quarters had some lively information, too. But Jane's historical reputation has probably benefited from the relative quiet, casting her- rightly or wrongly- as a more passive player. Catherine and Anne each barely missed seeing how little the women who displaced them gained from their success.
There is a most impressive memorial to Sir John Seymour, Jane's father, in Great Bedwyn Church, though I guess you are aware. There is a bridge over the Kennet & Avon Canal named Wolfhall Bridge. The church is worth a visit as there are also a couple of medieval knights templars' tombs and wonderful stained glass.
I absolutely feel that Jane is complicit in Anne death. I believe Henry hold most of the blame, but Jane wasn’t some innocent women swept away by the King’s passion. Neither was Anne. But Anne didn’t need Katherine dead to do it. However, I don’t think Jane caused all this to happen, she just didn’t stop it. I do believe there was fear involved too when Henry threatened her, but Jane was cunning in her quiet appearance.
How would Jane have stopped it? Even if she wanted to do so. You couldn't just say no. Many people believe Anne B. tried that by retreating to Hever when Henry was pressing her, but he followed her there, and inundated her with messages. How safe would it be for her and her family? It's hard to tell how much Jane put herself forward, but as to saying stop when it had started--that would have been nearly impossible. Would Anne have minded an earlier death for Catherine, had that happened? It would have enabled her to clarify her situation. Some people think that Anne helped drive Catherine to her death by supplanting her in Henry's affections ( I think the fault is almost entirely Henry's, myself, though.)
Queen Jane Seymour didn't have a long time to shine, so we can only guess how well she might have done with Henry in the long term. He almost certainly would have taken mistresses but maybe she also could have had other sons to appease him to treat her well. As for the beginning of her relationship with Henry, he hadn't yet dealt with Anne the way he did, so she didn't have to fear for her life at the start. And later she was carful enough to stay on his good side. I wouldn't be surprised if she did have some fear of him, in case she was to disappoint. I'm sure having a first born son was a huge relief and joy.
I have often thought of this. I think Jane hoped to gain in the King's eyes, and did willingly follow her family/advisor's advice. I honestly believe that Jane thought Ann would be set aside and impoverished the way Queen Katherine was, in fact Jane thought it might be even worse for Ann (and her family) since Ann was not a princess by blood. She may have even thought it was good that Ann would be getting her come-uppens.
I always assumed that anyone Henry the VIII thought well of was probably not so great. In all seriousness, I've never for a second bought that she was as perfect as she was presented to be by contemporaries. I am not dissuaded from that position by anything I've ever heard.
I can't help but find it funny that all the outrage about Jane supplanting Anne goes on in here when Anne did the same thing to Catherine of Aragon and no one seems to have their knickers in a wad how to make themselves feel better buy villainizing Jane when Jane just followed the Anne Boleyn playbook for displacing Royal mistresses
I'm not happy at all about Anne treated Catherine (and Mary) and have said so in various videos. At least they weren't executed though and I think that's why Jane gets the criticism you mention.
@@HistoryCalling I disagree the only reason why Katherine was not was not executed was because of who she was and the fact that she had very powerful allies in Spain and in the Holy Roman Empire if an had her way Catherine and Mary both would have been executed so I don't think that argument stands
I think there are plenty of twisted knickers out there about Anne's supplanting of Katherine! But it also makes sense perhaps if you are really an ardent Anne B fan, to root for her to become queen, and to be distressed when she's unseated.
It's fascinating how Jane Seymour, who is often remembered as Henry VIII's 'gentle' and 'meek' wife, actually played a role in the high-stakes politics of the Tudor court. Her relationship with Henry and the power moves she made weren't as passive as they may appear-she carefully balanced obedience with ambition. If she truly was this pious and submissive woman, would she have so adeptly managed to secure her position as queen? Perhaps her mildness was less genuine than calculated, designed to contrast with Anne Boleyn and appeal to Henry's sensibilities. Tudor history just goes to show that things are rarely as simple as they seem.
The name Seymour - which was already close to and a part of the retinue at Court - makes one pause. Jane would've obeyed her father and they both would've been pushed to 'strike while the iron is hot'. IMO, the opportunity for The Crown via Jane would've been seen as a vibrant gleam in all the Seymour eyes. Perhaps Jane was schooled on how to respond to the King, on her coy, shy demeanor. Let's face it - the script had already been written by Anne on how to win over Henry. To me, the Seymour Clan controlled the demure Jane.
Jane is one of my favorites to contemplate "what ifs" about. What if she hadn't died of childbirth complications? What if she ended up having additional children (though I agree with you, it seems likely that Henry was the one who was the issue with the lack of future children)? Would he have still kept her as his wife? Would she have continued to be cozy with the Catholic foreign powers and ended up like Anne eventually? The list goes on. As to if I think you were "too harsh", absolutely not. She made it pretty clear based on just what we know that she had a goal to be Queen, so I can only imagine the rest of what wasn't recorded in history. While I could see Anne attacking her in some way, it wouldn't surprise me if that it was a less physical confrontation (or possibly several) that was inflated to give it a better narrative for the anti-Anne crowd. I just wish Jane had stayed alive so we could have seen if it was worth all that effort.
I have mixed feelings about Jane. On the one hand, she showed skill (hers or her family’s) in getting to the throne but after what happened to his first two queens, how smart was that? And she got on risky ground when it came to expressing an opinion about religious matters! Thank you for another fascinating video. I also enjoyed the Blarney visit! I literally passed that castle by when I was driving toward Cork, as the very thought of hanging upside down in space freaks me out just as much as the thought of Henry VIII taking an interest in yet another attractive young damsel.
Good evening HC that is an interesting question. To be honest I'm not really sure, from what you gave us I would probably agree with you. Than I think was she just a pawn being used by other people because they know she would treat the king differently. I do like how she did get the king back to his daughters and believe that may be why they were made legitimate before his death. Thank you for another great video look forward to next week.
I don’t blame Jane for Anne’s death since Henry was hell-bent on that path. Whether it was Jane or another woman, Anne was doomed. I do think Jane was coached, and I believe she was quite savvy, but she was the means to what Henry wanted.
It’s difficult for me to say whether she was a “pawn” or not; she certainly had no option of saying “no” to her family or to Henry. I don’t think that Henry loved her; I don’t think he actually loved any of his wives. I think he was simply infatuated with them, including Catherine of Aragon. He featured Jane because Jane gave him a son. Had she not had Edward, her role in portraiture and history would be very different.
Jane seems to always be looked over or demonised by Anne fans, but she’s one of my favourites. I don’t think you can blame her for marrying a man who just proved he was willing to murder to get his way: there’s no realistic way you can say no at that point. No queen had ever been executed in England at that point, I personally believe Jane expected Anne to be sent to a convent and divorced, I don’t think anyone but Henry and his councillors saw an execution coming. It was truly the first event of its kind and I think hindsight makes it a lot easier to predict. She’s far more complex than people have given her credit for and I appreciate her attempts to improve Mary’s lot in life.
Oh by the time Henry had killed Anne, yes, Jane was locked in. There was no backing out really once Anne had been arrested. I'd love to know at what point Jane realised just how far Henry was going to go though and what she thought of it.
@ I think people forget that there was likely only a few months between Henry starting to show Jane interest and Anne’s death. Even if Jane did intend to overthrow Anne, there’s no way she could have predicted how fast and how hard Anne would fall. Or rather, be pushed, by Henry
She’s probably my least favorite of his wives too (for the same reasons you mentioned), but the way she seemed to treat her stepdaughters does make me like her a bit better. Maybe, if she had lived longer, I would know more about her to build a more favorable opinion
Anne Boleyn replaced Katherine of Aragon and shed no tears for her, nor her daughter Mary. It was ironic that Anne found herself in the same situation as the woman she replaced, having a daughter but failing to produce the son Henry desired. Henry then began to pursue Jane Seymour, one of Anne's ladies in waiting, just as Anne had been a lady in waiting to Katherine.
I think Jane is one of those women who is super calculating and manipulative but acts like she’s super innocent and sweet. Just a feeling I get from the whole scenario
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She is interesting, to say the least! Thank you for this! I wish I could see all this 1st hand, but I am in the states.
Hi, I'm sorry. I don't follow. Can you not see my video, or do you mean you can't view the new series of Wolf Hall yet?
It's so hard to say. We'll never know the true Jane unless some letters she wrote turn up. Stranger things have happened.
Of all Henry's wives, Jane is the enigma.
With the lack of evidence I just imagine her as she is often protrayed - meek, quiet, religious, unassuming, observant, dull etc.
Some like to bash Jane, call her cold, calculating, evil etc especially diehard Anne Boleyn fans but we just don't know and if you want someone to blame then look to Henry. Easy.
Yes, I agree. She's hard to pin down. I don't think she was evil, but I'm also not convinced she was as meek as some would have us believe. In the end though I think you're correct that ultimate blame lies with Henry. If he'd been faithful to either of his first two wives, none of what followed would have happened.
@@HistoryCalling Jane often falsely gets the credit for Mary's reconciliation with Henry.
In reality Jane did next to nothing there and even less concerning Elizabeth.
I imagine she may have wanted to help/intercede but knew she had learned and observed not to push and provoke Henry and his temper. Feelings were still raw.
Having majored in history, I definitely appreciate the critical approach you take in assessing sources. One of the most valuable skills you can gain from studying history is recognizing that biases and inaccuracies creep up often even in primary sources, and that nothing should blindly be taken at face value without some corroborating sources.
Thank you so much. I wish other people appreciate that too. So many people just take sources at face value.
I have a history degree, and I agree completely.
As a librarian: can confirm 😄😅
I don’t have any degrees but I do genealogy usually daily and I absolutely agree with not taking anything at face value. Dig, dig, dig
One of my favorite history professors always reminded us to treat every author (of a source) as a salesperson; they are all trying to sell us their point of view. Life would be a little easier if more people realized that!
"Lady in waiting," seems a most dangerous job.
Absolutely! :-)
Considering how Henry went through them as if they were a harem it gives a whole new meaning to "lady in waiting."
I share your opinion of Jane, she knew what she was doing and played it perfectly to, as you put it, step over Anne. It seems to me that there is much more complexity to who this Woman was, underestimating her intelligence. Thank you for your work.
Yes, I wish we had more sources on her. She's still a bit of a mystery and I'd love to be unpack that complexity you mention a bit further.
@HistoryCalling yes, she is a mystery. One of my favorite things about her. Always more to discover.
So many people had thoughts about the goings on around Jane and it's frustrating we'll never have anything from Jane herself. From an art history perspective, Holbein was brilliant for his ability to capture so much of a person's personality and countenance in straightforward portraiture. It's interesting that Jane's portrait has the same essence that we end up with as a result of her (lack of) historical voice: unassuming to the point of blankness. It allows us to put our own thoughts and interpretations on her, and i must say mine is very similar to yours. If she had reservations about stepping over a headless ex wife, donned in her jewels, we'll never know.
I think there is more to Jane than meets the eye, she knew how to play the game and was well Coached,she was also a pawn to be played,thank you HC.
The supposedly meek-and-mild Jane seemed to win the battle of history until recently. Here in the twenty-first century, Jane's "obey and serve" doesn't play NEARLY as well as Anne's "let them grumble"! Perhaps this change of biases is unfair to both women.
Yes, it's always interesting to see how modern sensibilities affect our interpretation of historical figures. Until comparatively recently Jane's approach would have been much more favoured.
Your interpretation - walking over Anne’s dead body to wed before it had likely achieved room temperature - rings true for me.
Yes, it was monstrously fast.
You are right in another comment I wrote the same thing, this woman was bad news she didn't really need her brothers to tell her anything she probably proposed to them to help her and they did it gladly I believe in this she was her own woman she was a snake knew what she wanted and how to get it by any means possible and had a great hand in Anne's downfall and she monstrously not only walked over the headless bloodied body of another woman but its chilling how she and Henry got engaged the follwing day ofAnne s death and married 10 days later as if nothing had happened Im glad this woman died in her hour of triumph it all lasted her her less than a year and a half leaving behind marriage crown and baby prince all dust and ashes
But isn't that what Anne did to Queen Catherine?
Yes, Ann did upsurp Katherine but she was not executed. @Shurrupnarstoopid
@@Shurrupnarstoopid Yeah, for sure, but Anne has been plenty vilified, whereas Jane has kind of gotten a pass.
Great video, HC! She's always been somewhat of an enigma to me as she died so young, was always adored by Henry, so much so that he was buried with her. I feel like there's so much about her that we may never know sadly. I do think there was definitely some rivalry between her and Anne, and maybe she played the loving, gentle queen as she's gone down in history. Yet I get the feeling she was smarter than she appeared and knew exactly what game she was playing after witnessing the way Henry treated Catherine and what he did to Anne. I think there's so much more about the person that she was. Her entire family had done or could gain a great deal from Henry, and so that also gives me more reason that there was more than meets the eye with her. I do believe that Henry truly did love her. But most of we now know about her comes from the one and only Eustace Chapuys! What a guy! Thank you for always giving us food for thought... 🌟🫶🏽
Yes, she is a mystery. I wish we had more sources by and about her. It's frustrating to have so little.
Maybe loved her on account of the son she gave him
My absolute favourite history channel 👏👏👏👏👏
Thank you so much :-)
I believe Jane was complicit. I do think that at the beginning she warded him off, but her greedy family (as were the Boleyn’s) saw an opportunity to advance. How many times can you tell Henry “No”? He did not take that for an answer. Maybe she was afraid, we’ll never know. It is a bit of irony that her marriage did indeed take her life. You never disappoint HC. Thank you again for your hard work. Look forward to all things you research. Have a great week!😊
Thanks Amy. Have a lovely week too.
Literally love this channel!!! I love history and this channel makes me love it more.
Thank you so much. I hope you're enjoying the latest portrayal of Jane Seymour on Wolf Hall too.
@@HistoryCallingI agree, I am watching your channel more now as I find your voice comforting and the topics not at all contemporary, so it is a balm to my frazzled American nerves at this time.
👏👏❤ Thanks for ushering in the new season of "Wolf Hall", HC. I agree with you; Jane's an enigma. In Tudor times, I find it hard to believe anyone who spent time in court was capable of "innocence" when it came to plots and schemes. She may not have possessed great intellect but I'm sure she was savvy. Look forward to any WH-related content. Have a great week. 🙏🏼
You're welcome. Yes, I thought something Tudory was unusually appropriate this week, esp. as Jane is appearing in the new series (though of course we all know her days are numbered).
@@HistoryCalling So true. My biggest challenge will be sticking with it and cringing with the awareness of Cromwell's fate.
Yup. It's not gonna end well for Jane or him :-0
Fantastic as usual. Cheers from outback Queensland Australia 😊
👋 from Canberra
@alphooey we are like neighbours 🤣🤣
Oh, joy! A full video on Jane Seymour! Yes, yes, yes!
I don't know how I'd never done a full bio on her before, but here it is :-)
Great video! I just finished watching the first episode of The Mirror and the Light, so a video about Jane Seymour was perfect timing. I think Jane set her cap at Henry just as Anne had. Queen of England was the greatest role a woman could have and Jane wanted to win that title for herself.
Thank you. Yes, I thought I'd put this one out in honour of the new show. I'll do something Cromwellian at some point during its run as well.
Today is a marvelous day, history calling has uploaded a new video and that too on the TUDORS ❤️❤️
I'm thinking that she played the hand that she was dealt which is all she could do once Henry became interested.
That puts her somewhere between the two extremes that have been portrayed.
She isn't my favourite of the wives either. I feel great sympathy for Catharine Howard and rather admire Kathryn Parr and wish she'd steered well clear of Jane's brother!
Thanks for another great video!
My pleasure! :-)
IT'S MONDAY. Time for History Calling!!!!
What a History Calling video on Monday?? Friday came early this week, guys ❤❤❤❤
Umm, I switched to Mondays back at the start of the year :-) I've very happy to have you watching though on any day of the week :-)
I'm so happy you covered this, I've always assumed she wasn't as sweet as she's always expressed as.
I never felt that Jane was the "Good wife" or the meek, gentle innocent. I have read Karen Lindsey's book "Divorced Beheaded Survived," which definitely reinforced my opinion. She is right, in that there were two major differences between Anne Boleyn's usurpation of Katharine of Aragon and Jane's own of Anne. First, Anne was young enough to conceive again when Henry abandoned her, and secondly, it was clear that Anne was to be killed, not merely discarded. Jane knew what she was doing - unlike Anne, she never tried to get away from Henry, even when it was clear he wanted to bed her.
Jane's one and only accomplishment was the birth of Edward VI, but even that could have been a failure - after all, Katharine of Aragon and Henry's first son, Henry Duke of Cornwall, only lived 52 days. The only reason Jane is remembered fondly by Henry at all, is that Edward lived. Had he died at some point before Henry's death, I doubt very much that Henry would have been so attached to her memory.
I don't think you give Jane enough credit. For one thing, she may not have initially thought Anne Boylen would be killed. She may have actually been lead to belive Anne was guilty, or by the time she realized what was happening, it was too late to back out. Or possibly it wasn't about Jane, Anne was dying with or without her. Better that she become queen than someone else.
She also succeeded in reconciling Henry and Mary and treated Elizabeth kindly. She was also the wife out of the child-bearing ones that took the longest to get pregnant. Henry even said once he was worried he would have no sons by Jane. And yet, Jane still managed to keep her place as queen and head firmly on her shoulders.
She was smart enough to not cling tightly to either faction. She both pleaded for mercy for the Pilgrims, and allied herself with the reformers via her sister's marriage to Cromwell's son.
It seemed she set up the chess board rather well.
Anne was the first queen consort to ever be executed in English history. It was in no way clear that she would die. Jane likely thought and was right to think she would be divorced, set aside and sent to a convent as was the way royal wives were traditionally discarded. Jane was three months into being pursued by Henry, why would she think he would execute a woman he pursued for nearly a decade for her?
It wasn’t until Anne’s miscarriage on the day of Catherine’s funeral that Anne’s downfall really began. Jane could not have possibly known that Mark Smeaton would confess to sleeping with Anne
I'd argue that Henry's idolization of her had more to do with her being 'the one that got away'. I think if Catherine of Aragon had died in childbirth with her son, even with his early death, Henry would have treated her the same way. It's easier to idolize an ideal than a person. Since Jane was dead, while giving him a son no less, she made a perfect almost blank canvas for Henry to color however he wished.
@KippitQuestion I 100% agree. I think even if Anne or Catherine died in childbed with a daughter or stillborn child, he would have idolized them.
if u really believe whoreboleyn would have gone on to have healthy babies at 36 and after 2 or 3 misscarriages had she lived I got a bridge to sell you secondly jane was 27 and still unmarried ofc she would want marriage to henry and be queen and third nobody liked whoreboleyn or considered her marriage legal anyway and jane was catholic u conviniently ignore all theese facts
Thank you for covering her story dear HC 😊. I think after two "difficult" wives, Henry wanted the opposite and he found it in Jane. Above all she gave him the longed-for son. This made her the "love" of his life 😉. I'd love to know what would happen if she had lived longer? Would she have another son? Would he be bored of her? At least her status would have been secured due to having Edward and I think he wouldn't marry again, only taking mistresses. I would love to know what she thought about marrying a man who just killed the previous wife. Alas, we will never know. Great video and very well narrated. Thank you 🙏
Thank you so much for the donation Anita. That's very kind of you. Yes, I would be fascinated to know how she would have fared had she lived. What would she have been like as a regent for Edward for instance (if she'd been allowed to be his regent that is)?
She would have turned a blind eye to Henry's dalliances I am sure, and probably followed Queen Catherine's example as queen. Not as bright or as guiding, but perhaps a steadying influence and a devoted wife to him.
@tykat12 that's possible 👍
She was probably scared to refuse to marry the king.
@@jamiemcvay130 Power dynamic to end all power dynamics.
I've watched so many documentaries and I noticed that you always dig up something I haven't heard before! That makes your channel so special to me! Thank you! (On another note: I hope one day we'll get a video on Christopher Marlowe! 😁🍀)
I feel like it's always the quiet ones and we would have found that out about Jane had she lived longer
Yes, it would have been fascinating to see how she might have handled being a regent for her son for instance.
The Catherines and Anne of Cleves may have had a peaceful life instead of Henry
They sure would!
They said something about a C section killing her ( because they didn't know how to do it right back then!)
It's hard to know how Jane Seymour was motivated, partly as she died to early. She was lucky in the sense of her position in history, in the tomb with Henry (urgh) and all that, but a fat lot of good it did her whilst alive. I think the whole boiling of them, especially Henry himself were concerned mostly with No. 1.
Your channel is SO great. Really impressive. 🌟👍
Thanks William. Yes, I see what you mean about apparently being Henry's favourite and getting to be buried with him. Not much use when you die in your 20s.
I think she was brought up and taught to be an obedient lady. And I think she was taught how to get the man her family wanted. I doubt she was truly allowed to explore who she was. Jane was told who she was. It’s still today a practice for family’s who desire power & wealth to marry their children to whomever would be a great advantage to their most important desires. I do think she was still a pawn by all those who influenced the king or those around him. Henry was probably directed by those around him to notice the pious Jane. It took him awhile to even see her. What happened to change that? I believe Henry the VIII was just as manipulated as he manipulated others. Teaching Jane how to be attractive by her actions. Henry probably at this point craved that, and the simplicity of a wife who obeyed. He had several strong wives that did not let him get away with things that were important to them. And they paid for it. Deception is everywhere power & money come together. There is always someone who believes they deserve more than every one else, and will do whatever it takes to put themselves where they want to be. History has shown us it isn’t just a king or queen that holds power, it’s also those around them whispering in their ears.
Shame Wolfhall no longer exists like the way we have Hever 😢 🏰
I know. I'd love to be able to visit it. Hever is lovely though. I'm grateful to have it at least.
If Jane was loved by her family and had any self respect, she would have never married Henry, because the abuse suffered by his first two wives and his mistresses.
I don't know that they didn't love her, but in that time period becoming the Queen was the absolute best a woman could do. Almost no family would have turned their noses up at that and it could seen as them trying to help her have the best life.
It was the times and daughters were used as pawns and were not that loved but she was sly hypocrite and conniving of the worst kind It speaks volumes that her sister Elizabeth Seymour widow Lady Urtaugh said she ll never ask anything to her sister even though she had problem with her jointure she wrote to Cromwell instead and she ended marrying his son Ifthis woman said such a thing about her sister she probably had good reasons that we don't know that woman was bad news she walked over the bloodied headless body of another woman to get what she wanted her ambitious brothers were behind her but in this in a way she was her own woman and knew what she wanted and how to get it that's what and I'm glad she died suddenly in her hour of her triumph she scarcely enjoyed her marriage her crown and her baby prince all lasted less than a year and half
Saying no to Henry VIII was simply not a choice she had. It either would be wife or mistress.
Women were supposed to enhance their family. So we're sons. You made good marriages because it advanced the family. They didn't have that much choice in it. And when you involve royalty, that ups the stakes a lot. How do you think the family would affairs if she had turned him down?
If Henry had shown interest in me I would have told him I was not virtuous and hoped that put off.
I'm loving this channel so far. Thank you for another great video 😄
Another superb video well researched & narrated. Thank you. Best regards, John.
I think at that time, you didn’t progress in court without knowing how to play the game. She was very complicit in all that happened. A tragic end, but also a fascinating ‘what if’. What would have happened had she not died? Would Henry have looked elsewhere as he was wont to do? Would there have been more children if she survived? The entire history could have been very different. Thanks for another great video!
Well done! Thanks for the video.
That was excellent thanks
Thank you :-)
Bonus comment for the engagement algorithm. Gotta support great content.
I feel like jane has more to her story than people said.
Yes, I wish we had more sources on her. She's a bit of an enigma.
Another great offering. Thank you HC🎉
Hi from 🇺🇲. Thank you for this upload , and looking forward to the next one .
Loved this interpretation of this very much @HistoryCalling
The hand model. The narrator. The historian. History Calling posseses many talents!!
Another Excellent video from you!!! In my opinion you're The Best Tudor History channel on RUclips by far!!!😊😊
I feel like Jane is, maybe unfairly, pegged as the sole reason for Anne's downfall and execution while Henry seems to get off relatively scott free
Oh I blame that one on Henry. I think the ultimate blame lies there and of course Anne's lack of a son was a big component as well.
Thanks again for an entertaining presentation
Thank you very much :-)
I mean, it's not hard to see why Henry chose Jane as his next wife. She was submissive, and she had a womb. That's it. She fulfilled that purpose by giving him a son and then having the decency to die before he outgrew her. It's harsh but more or less true.
Thank you
You're welcome :-) Hopefully it gives people a little extra insight into her as they watch the new series of Wolf Hall.
I don't think I have heard of Wolf Hall!
I use RUclips for my entertainment!@@HistoryCalling
Oh you've got to watch it. You'll not regret it :-)
Remarkable. Stunning animation. UTTERLY FANTASTIC.
I always feel bad for Jane, like her life seemed the best out of all the wives but imagine how scared Jane was, (Henry threatening to do to Jane what he did to Anne if Jane got in the way and anything else that might of been lost to history) and you finally give your husband a heir you need but only a week or so later you die because of problems after the birth like she had to be scared when Henry threatened her and throughout her pregnancy. Anyway I love this account and these videos
Hmm, that's an interesting thought (about whether her life was the best). I always think that Anne o f Cleves was the luckiest myself, but I can see your argument for Jane. I agree though that being married to Henry must have been pretty awful at that point. The only wife who ever really got the fun, kind husband was Catherine of Aragon (and obviously that guy had an expiration date of c. 1528).
Anne of Cleves had the best life out of the wives. Marriage annulled, kept her head, and became a wealthy divorcee.
I am wildly inteigued by other European royalties of the time, such as Spain. Would you be able to do a video on the subject? Perhaps it would give an opportunity to weave in context to existing videos. Cheers!
I think you're going to like my answer to this one. I actually had a video on Spanish royalty lined up for today, then realised that Wolf Hall was coming out and so slotted this one in in its place. So there's some Spanish royalty coming soon :-)
Hi, awesome live history video on Jane Seymour. I enjoyed it. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Have a great day see you next video 😊 😊
Good thank you. See you next week :-)
I don’t blame either Jane or Anne for their roles in the their predecessors’ downfalls tbh. You can’t say no to the king, and once Henry was done with a woman, he was done. If it hadn’t been Anne, it would’ve been someone else. If it hadn’t been Jane, it would’ve been someone else.
I don’t condone Anne being so vicious towards Katherine or Mary though. With Jane, she at least seemed to leave Elizabeth (the child of her former enemy) alone.
Yes, I think you're right that Henry would have found another woman even if Anne and Jane had managed to hold off and like you I really can't overlook how terrible Anne was to Catherine and Mary.
I've always gotten a "mean girl" vibe from Jane, LOL. At the very least, she knew nothing good would come of Anne. Jane would have known about the abysmal treatment of Catherine of Aragon. She would have had to have known that Anne probably wouldn't fare much better. It's my guess that she knew that Anne was in for it, but--it all had to happen in order for her to marry Henry ;-)
I'd love to know what she thought was going to happen actually. She may have thought initially that Anne wouldn't actually be killed (it was unprecedented event after all), but we'll never know.
My main opinion of her kinda reverberates through all of these women - that in the context of both the time, social class, and proximity, she was not all that bad. She was surely under a lot of pressure for the last years of her life and whether she was willingly complicit or not, she is still a product of all of that. I can't imagine doing what she did to get a spouse, especially at the expense of Anne, but I also don't live in the 1530s. There's a lot of stuff that I do that these women would likely be horrified by if they could peer at me 500 years in the future but that the 21st century views as very normal and I do think that goes both ways. (Another, admittedly extreme example of this was how normal it was for Egyptian Pharaohs to marry their own daughters, but by today's standards that's not only hugely taboo but a crime in most countries.)
Jane Seymour has always been my favorite wife. She intrigues me because although she is seen as the meek, obiedent one, it seems she was the one to best set the chess board.
She appeased the Cathloics by advocating for Mary and mercy for the Pilgrims of Grace. Her brothers also secured her safety amoung the reformists, and she allied herself with Cromwell through the marriage of his son and her sister. This tied the success of Jane and her kids to the success of Cromwell's son and grandchildren. If Cromwell wanted his grandkids related to the future king (or queen) of england, he would protect Jane and her children.
It is a little disturbing that she was willing to step over Anne's body to become queen, but you have to remember that Anne was prepared to step over both Katherine of Aragon and Mary's bodies to secure her own position. Atleast Jane wasnt malice enough to go after the children. Besides, Jane may not have realized Anne would be killed. The current precedent was banishment from court. After Jane realized Anne was about to be killed, she wouldn't have been in a position to save her. It would have been too dangerous to back out of her relationship with the King.
She wasn't a saint(though I don't find her any worse than Anne), but she seems so much more politically savy than she gets credit for.
she is my favorite also
@@magical_universe793 Yay! I'm happy to find someone else that appreciates Jane Seymour.
I just love everything about you and your channel, I always go to your updates to find the real truth as the royals of this era amaze me.❤
"that is how it is going to be, let them grumble" if I tell you I HOLLERED lol sounds so 21st "centurish"😂😂😂
It does, I agree. That was A's motto though, I promise :-)
Always loved that stained glass image of Jane at Cardiff Castle. Such striking attired ❤
Yes, I love it too. I've been to the Castle though and somehow missed it, which always annoys me. I have to use a Flickr image.
@HistoryCalling Did you spot the other stained glass images there such as those figures from the Wars of the Roses? Very beautiful ❤️
Some are the only imagined depictions we have of certain figures such the the window depicting Isabel Neville.
No, missed them too on my visits. I could kick myself.
Thank you for this really interesting video--really appreciated! An enigmatic character for sure.
(It may be that other commentators have noted this, but in the family tree for the Seymours, Jane's mother is given as Elizabeth rather than Margery.)
I love this channel
What with Wolf Hall Parte Ye Seconde just starting, I had a brainstorm at the weekend after your post and guessed this (or something very similar, like Thomas Howard or any of his cronies) was on its way. Oh - those sinners at Wolf Hall (said someone, one). Look forward to it. Thanks for your input as always.
Yes, it's in honour of the new series and I'll do something Cromwellian a bit later in its run I think.
@@HistoryCalling THAT will be worth waiting for - seems like a long minute ago I asked about TC - and I ain't talking about Top Cat, either 😆 Reading D McC's 'Bio' on TC right now. Fascinating theorisation.
@@chrisbanks6659 Oh, yeah! Waiting anxiously for the new series, though I confess I'm not looking forward to its inevitable bloody end. 😱
Can you not see it yet?
@@HistoryCalling I think it can be viewed on PBS Passport but it's not scheduled for broadcast until next year.
Jane was pushed up to Henry 8 as soon as he showed any interest like you said who would or could have refused the King 👑👑
I can just imagine the voodoo Jane did on Anne! Oh I know it people today do that mind-blowing stuff! I'll bet they paid someone to tip Anne off so she walked right in on them! Infamous!
Christina of Denmark (a great-niece of Catherine of Aragon) did.
Only hos
I feel like the only reason why jane kept quiet and didn’t question or disobey any of Henry’s orders was because she was waiting to give birth to a son so she would be safe and then she will start influencing him
But she sadly died in childbirth complication and didn’t have a chance to fully shine like the others before in my opinion she was very clever and smart for playing the waitting game (that is how i picture jane i don’t really know for sure if it’s accurate 😭)
Yes, it would be fascinating to know how the marriage would have proceeded with Jane the mother of a son.
There were so many customs surrounding kings/monarchs not attending their children’s christenings, and apparently funerals for their spouses.
Can you make a video about these rules/customs, and why they may have come about? Events that one might expect a monarch to attend, but custom/tradition said otherwise.
It’s mind boggling how Elizabeth coped with her father executing her mother let alone maintaining a relationship with him
I imagine she was very good at compartmentalising. Actually given that she couldn't remember Anne, that probably helped. It might have been harder for Mary.
Good evening to history calling from Bea
I very much enjoy your work. Regarding "IHS" I was under the impression that it meant "In Hoc Signo."
Oh you might very well be right. Thank you :-)
@@HistoryCalling IHS is almost as ubiquitous in liturgical furniture as "INRI," surprisingly even in Protestant churches. As a youngster, unaware that these acronyms were from the Latin, I was puzzled over their meaning.
I didn’t expect this.
I think it's very difficult to read into the minds of historical figures especially when we have so little of their own writings, diaries for example. Jane survived in a court where survival wasn't easy.
Considering how ambitious her brothers Thomas and Edward were, it wouldn't surprise me if it was a family trait and she was just as ambitious but able to hide it behind a mask of meekness. So I also have doubts of her innocence in the whole thing
@HistoryCalling can you do a video on the gunpowder plot to assassinate king James VI
My favourite wives are Anne and Catherine Parr. I think Anne was very obviously framed and didn’t deserve her fate, Jane I believe was an opportunist.
Christ you needed a score card to survive Henry's whims
Very true!
Well done.
With essentially all Henry’s wives, once they got mixed up with him, they had little to no choice and had to make the best of it. However, Jane Seymour seems to me to be probably the least fun of the lot.
Funny because Ane of Cleves was described of plain and Jane Seymour sound similar.
There's an interesting discussion to be had there actually. If you see my video on Anne's Holbein portrait I note that Henry criticised her body rather than her face and the Flander's Mare comment was a much later invention. I'm not sure contemporaries thought of her as being plain nearly so often as we think they did.
Jane is also my least favorite of Henry’s Queens. I of course didn’t know her but it seems to me that she knew what she was doing & was not as innocent as some believe. Just the fact that she married King Henry only 11 days after Anne Boleyn was executed, is quite unsettling. Some may argue saying she or any one else could not refuse the King’s advances is not true. Everyone has the right to make choices in their lives realizing the consequences.
If someone is saying "Jane was his favorite wife because he is burried with her!!!" .... yeah guess what, what were his other options? Get burried with Cathrine of Aragon? Jump into the grave with Anne Boleyn or Cathrine Howard? Anna of Cleve and Cathrine Parr were still alive when he died. Maybe she could be his favorite wife because she gave birth to Edward and she died before Henry would fall out of love. And not because they are burried together
If only we had a fraction of the Round 2 Anne-Jane battle, compared to all the documentation of Round 1- Catherine vs. Anne- of which so much exists. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a handful of late 1535/early 1536 letters from each? I'll bet the servants' quarters had some lively information, too. But Jane's historical reputation has probably benefited from the relative quiet, casting her- rightly or wrongly- as a more passive player. Catherine and Anne each barely missed seeing how little the women who displaced them gained from their success.
Yes, those servants will have had some great gossip. They'd put the ones at Downton Abbey to shame :-)
There is a most impressive memorial to Sir John Seymour, Jane's father, in Great Bedwyn Church, though I guess you are aware. There is a bridge over the Kennet & Avon Canal named Wolfhall Bridge. The church is worth a visit as there are also a couple of medieval knights templars' tombs and wonderful stained glass.
I absolutely feel that Jane is complicit in Anne death. I believe Henry hold most of the blame, but Jane wasn’t some innocent women swept away by the King’s passion. Neither was Anne. But Anne didn’t need Katherine dead to do it. However, I don’t think Jane caused all this to happen, she just didn’t stop it. I do believe there was fear involved too when Henry threatened her, but Jane was cunning in her quiet appearance.
How would Jane have stopped it? Even if she wanted to do so. You couldn't just say no. Many people believe Anne B. tried that by retreating to Hever when Henry was pressing her, but he followed her there, and inundated her with messages. How safe would it be for her and her family? It's hard to tell how much Jane put herself forward, but as to saying stop when it had started--that would have been nearly impossible.
Would Anne have minded an earlier death for Catherine, had that happened? It would have enabled her to clarify her situation. Some people think that Anne helped drive Catherine to her death by supplanting her in Henry's affections ( I think the fault is almost entirely Henry's, myself, though.)
Queen Jane Seymour didn't have a long time to shine, so we can only guess how well she might have done with Henry in the long term. He almost certainly would have taken mistresses but maybe she also could have had other sons to appease him to treat her well. As for the beginning of her relationship with Henry, he hadn't yet dealt with Anne the way he did, so she didn't have to fear for her life at the start. And later she was carful enough to stay on his good side. I wouldn't be surprised if she did have some fear of him, in case she was to disappoint. I'm sure having a first born son was a huge relief and joy.
I have often thought of this. I think Jane hoped to gain in the King's eyes, and did willingly follow her family/advisor's advice. I honestly believe that Jane thought Ann would be set aside and impoverished the way Queen Katherine was, in fact Jane thought it might be even worse for Ann (and her family) since Ann was not a princess by blood. She may have even thought it was good that Ann would be getting her come-uppens.
I always assumed that anyone Henry the VIII thought well of was probably not so great. In all seriousness, I've never for a second bought that she was as perfect as she was presented to be by contemporaries. I am not dissuaded from that position by anything I've ever heard.
I like what she did for her stepdaughter Mary compared to how Anne treated her.
Yes, she got along far better with Mary.
I can't help but find it funny that all the outrage about Jane supplanting Anne goes on in here when Anne did the same thing to Catherine of Aragon and no one seems to have their knickers in a wad how to make themselves feel better buy villainizing Jane when Jane just followed the Anne Boleyn playbook for displacing Royal mistresses
I'm not happy at all about Anne treated Catherine (and Mary) and have said so in various videos. At least they weren't executed though and I think that's why Jane gets the criticism you mention.
@@HistoryCalling I disagree the only reason why Katherine was not was not executed was because of who she was and the fact that she had very powerful allies in Spain and in the Holy Roman Empire if an had her way Catherine and Mary both would have been executed so I don't think that argument stands
I think there are plenty of twisted knickers out there about Anne's supplanting of Katherine!
But it also makes sense perhaps if you are really an ardent Anne B fan, to root for her to become queen, and to be distressed when she's unseated.
It's fascinating how Jane Seymour, who is often remembered as Henry VIII's 'gentle' and 'meek' wife, actually played a role in the high-stakes politics of the Tudor court. Her relationship with Henry and the power moves she made weren't as passive as they may appear-she carefully balanced obedience with ambition. If she truly was this pious and submissive woman, would she have so adeptly managed to secure her position as queen? Perhaps her mildness was less genuine than calculated, designed to contrast with Anne Boleyn and appeal to Henry's sensibilities. Tudor history just goes to show that things are rarely as simple as they seem.
The name Seymour - which was already close to and a part of the retinue at Court - makes one pause. Jane would've obeyed her father and they both would've been pushed to 'strike while the iron is hot'. IMO, the opportunity for The Crown via Jane would've been seen as a vibrant gleam in all the Seymour eyes. Perhaps Jane was schooled on how to respond to the King, on her coy, shy demeanor. Let's face it - the script had already been written by Anne on how to win over Henry. To me, the Seymour Clan controlled the demure Jane.
I don’t think she had a lot of choice in this however played it as safe as possible
Yes, that's definitely one interpretation. Henry was tough to say no to after all. Anne B. tried and failed for instance.
Jane is one of my favorites to contemplate "what ifs" about. What if she hadn't died of childbirth complications? What if she ended up having additional children (though I agree with you, it seems likely that Henry was the one who was the issue with the lack of future children)? Would he have still kept her as his wife? Would she have continued to be cozy with the Catholic foreign powers and ended up like Anne eventually? The list goes on.
As to if I think you were "too harsh", absolutely not. She made it pretty clear based on just what we know that she had a goal to be Queen, so I can only imagine the rest of what wasn't recorded in history. While I could see Anne attacking her in some way, it wouldn't surprise me if that it was a less physical confrontation (or possibly several) that was inflated to give it a better narrative for the anti-Anne crowd. I just wish Jane had stayed alive so we could have seen if it was worth all that effort.
I agree. There's definitely an alternate reality historical novel in there somewhere, where Jane lives. I wonder what would have happened too.
I have mixed feelings about Jane. On the one hand, she showed skill (hers or her family’s) in getting to the throne but after what happened to his first two queens, how smart was that? And she got on risky ground when it came to expressing an opinion about religious matters! Thank you for another fascinating video. I also enjoyed the Blarney visit! I literally passed that castle by when I was driving toward Cork, as the very thought of hanging upside down in space freaks me out just as much as the thought of Henry VIII taking an interest in yet another attractive young damsel.
Bonus comment to boost the engagement algorithm.
Good evening HC that is an interesting question. To be honest I'm not really sure, from what you gave us I would probably agree with you. Than I think was she just a pawn being used by other people because they know she would treat the king differently. I do like how she did get the king back to his daughters and believe that may be why they were made legitimate before his death. Thank you for another great video look forward to next week.
Anne of Cleves was probably Henry's favorite ex wife as they seemed to be good friends after he ditched her and she didn't cause problems.
I'm so excited... Jane is my favorite. I couldn't really tell you why😅
Maybe because she was Henry's favourite too? :-)
@HistoryCalling well I'm not going to rule that out as Catherine Parr is a close second 🤔
@@a.munroeWell Jane's book in the Six Tudor Queens by Alison Weir series is def my favourite
@@a.munroeI think possibly because compared with Catherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour is more relatable.
Yes, she probably is more relatable. They were both just sooo clever and brave (in different ways), they aren't really like the rest of us.
I don’t blame Jane for Anne’s death since Henry was hell-bent on that path. Whether it was Jane or another woman, Anne was doomed. I do think Jane was coached, and I believe she was quite savvy, but she was the means to what Henry wanted.
It’s difficult for me to say whether she was a “pawn” or not; she certainly had no option of saying “no” to her family or to Henry. I don’t think that Henry loved her; I don’t think he actually loved any of his wives. I think he was simply infatuated with them, including Catherine of Aragon. He featured Jane because Jane gave him a son. Had she not had Edward, her role in portraiture and history would be very different.
Yes, I'm not sure that guy could really love either, though I think he thought he was in love with all of them (except AC) at some point.
Jane seems to always be looked over or demonised by Anne fans, but she’s one of my favourites. I don’t think you can blame her for marrying a man who just proved he was willing to murder to get his way: there’s no realistic way you can say no at that point. No queen had ever been executed in England at that point, I personally believe Jane expected Anne to be sent to a convent and divorced, I don’t think anyone but Henry and his councillors saw an execution coming. It was truly the first event of its kind and I think hindsight makes it a lot easier to predict.
She’s far more complex than people have given her credit for and I appreciate her attempts to improve Mary’s lot in life.
Oh by the time Henry had killed Anne, yes, Jane was locked in. There was no backing out really once Anne had been arrested. I'd love to know at what point Jane realised just how far Henry was going to go though and what she thought of it.
@ I think people forget that there was likely only a few months between Henry starting to show Jane interest and Anne’s death. Even if Jane did intend to overthrow Anne, there’s no way she could have predicted how fast and how hard Anne would fall. Or rather, be pushed, by Henry
She’s probably my least favorite of his wives too (for the same reasons you mentioned), but the way she seemed to treat her stepdaughters does make me like her a bit better. Maybe, if she had lived longer, I would know more about her to build a more favorable opinion
Anne Boleyn replaced Katherine of Aragon and shed no tears for her, nor her daughter Mary. It was ironic that Anne found herself in the same situation as the woman she replaced, having a daughter but failing to produce the son Henry desired. Henry then began to pursue Jane Seymour, one of Anne's ladies in waiting, just as Anne had been a lady in waiting to Katherine.
I think Jane is one of those women who is super calculating and manipulative but acts like she’s super innocent and sweet. Just a feeling I get from the whole scenario