I have used the NRS flip lines, one on each side, for several years. I attach them directly to the frame so they ride pretty high on the tube when the boat is right side up. I have a loop tied in the flip line at just the right place so I can use it as a stirrup to assist with climbing back in the boat. To me this is their most useful feature. Never had any issue with them getting in the way or misbehaving in any manner. They seem to be a worthwhile tool and certainly do no harm. Not to concerned about looking cool. I also carry a webbing/ carabineer personal flip line in my PFD.
I agree and do carry my own flip line in my PFD for all the reasons you state here...good rant. But, I regularly have novice rafters in my raft and would like them to be able to help me flip the boat so I do have those NRS bags on the side hanging from the frame for them to use. Yes, I could give them flip lines and train them when we hit the river, but it's easier just to say "hey, pull the rope out of that bag and get up on the raft with me to pull it over..." :-)
Agreed, my guests on the raft aren’t seasoned boaters. Flipping a fully loaded gear boat takes multiple people. If your guests don’t have webbing on them, your going to be waiting for help instead of self rescuing.
Honest question. Why a Bowlin knot over a figure 8? I've learned a Bowlin in scouts. At NOLS WEMT. And Fire academy. I always ask and never get a solid answer.. I think they have even stopped teaching it in firefighter 1 classes. I have worked tirelessly trying to streamline a lot of things for our newer firefighters, and have them watch your videos for other professional industries perspectives on knots and rescue. (That use them far more than us)..
I use both, however I modified the bags. I added 1/2” webbing loop to each bag so it attaches to the frame not the D ring, stronger connection. Then tuck it under perimeter line which keeps bag accessible. Also carrier 1/2” loop with carbiner in pfd similar to yours. So bags are back up if needed. Different strokes for different folks...
Inelegant, well said. I agree that the personal flip line is more functional and readily available. All one has to do is practice the little bags and understand that it's way more comfortable and efficient to clip a biner than to fiddle with a bag over the side on a moving river. Great to hear your perspective.
My question is: How many people and flip lines does it take to right a 14' gear boat? Having not simulated this situation, I'm assuming I couldn't do it by myself. So the question then becomes should my passenger(s) also carry personal flip lines? Would the embarrassing little rope bags be the simplest solution in such a sticky situation? Or is there even any real hope in righting a 14' gear boat; just hope it finds an eddy and deal with it on shore? I could go fully load up my boat and try to flip it, but I thought someone else might be able to tell me how it goes!
@@GearGarageTV I'm closer to 150 than 200 lbs so I lack the leverage to flip a loaded raft - having another member of the party easily help, without outfitting the crew with personal flip lines is handy.
I’m relatively new to rafting and even though I’ve purchased flip lines, I haven’t used them for exactly that reason… dangling bags of rope seemed a bit too risky for entanglements… I like the idea carrying a flip line in my pfd & plan to give it a try!
@@GearGarageTVUnfortunately his website is no longer even available. It is gone. It looks like he had some really nice items though. Very well thought out. BTW. Thank you very much for your very informative and clear description and discussion of the different pieces of equipment. It is quite helpful to a noob like myself.
Zach First I deeply appreciate all the ideas and knowledge you share and most of it has been very helpful to me and generally get a lot from your knowledge, but I question you on this one. I attach my flip lines similarly to what Dennis does I use three on one side only. The primary reason is I seldom boat alone I usually have one or more passengers. On one trip I had rope inside my pfd but guess what because people travel faster in the water I floated away and unless every passenger carried your flip line in their pfd there was no flip line until I got rescued. It just seemed to me being less elegant was more important than everyone carrying your blue water (which by the way if all passengers carried one was a lot more expensive than the flip lines) flip line or the one who did have it floating down the river. I do like the idea of having a carabiner to hold onto the boat. however and make go back to keeping one for that reason.
Again first thank for even taking the time to respond shows real class, so you are asking me to bear my soul that I have actually flipped a boat, unfortunately yes I did and boy could I tell you some stories. I currently own two 16 foot self bailing rafts, most of my trips are multi day with two dry boxes, a cooler, water jugs, fire pan and four to six gear bags, no way even one person even if Dwayne Johnson is going to flip that boat over, my experience it takes a minimum of two usually three people to get it over while in the water.
Hey Zack, love the Gear Garage videos! Keep up the great work. I have a comment about the webbing that you use as a flip line. I think I am going to go in that direction for my personal use. But since it is webbing, I kind of think the only knot we should use is the water knot. It is super easy to tie a loop into the end of webbing with the water knot just using the follow-through method. Remember to leave at least 3 inches of tail, and inspect for slippage regularly. Then you can keep your biner attached to the flip webbing and ready to go. Cheers
Assuming you mean that your webbing would be tied to form a giant loop, do you have any concern about entanglement if the line were to get snagged around something unintentionally, vs having a figure eight or bowline tied off on the end with tail end of rope free? Thanks
Out of curiosity, have you ever used the flip bags? I have found my bags (I have two; one in the center of each side. I can hang in different locations if rowing a heavy gear boat) to be very helpful. It gets used often to tie off the boat for a lunch stop or any situation requiring less rope. In a flip you can (while in the water) toss the bag over the floor to your buddy or visa versa and it's much easier to pull yourself up onto an upside down boat (you just climb the rope). Maybe I'm a rookie, or not concerned about elegance, but I have found them to be useful. I guess I'm of the persuasion that there's more than one way to skin the cat so to speak.
Nope I’ve never used them. If you like them, then keep using them. I personally don’t like them for the reasons I described but there are many ways to skin a cat.
@@GearGarageTV maybe it is best to try them out before judging them inferior. Great points David! It might be they are amazing but outfitters are too cheap to pay for them. We can discuss this more on Friday!
Hi Zach! love the show, just getting into rafting and the knowledge is invaluable! I'm trying to buy the right stuff the first time. Would you recommend a 10' or 12' sling? I'm 5'9' and scrawny. Thanks!
If you are new to the job/sport this is a good place to start. There won't be much difference between 10 or 12. Tucking it between your PFD and chest is good though.
I’ve run the flipline bags before. But only 2. Get to the side of the boat with the lines. Alternatively, run 1 on each side. 4 is excessive. I’ve since abandon them in favor of a personal tether. Agreed, a better solution
I do a fair amount of over nights, so to have more stuff dangling to get hung up on not so good. Hey stop knocking yourself in your videos you are a good source for us all. We appreciate you here in Alberta. Having said that to each is their own, if it works for you..
I actually appreciate Zach's humility. He doesn't claim to be the perfect authoritative source of rafting wisdom, which allows me to trust his advice even more (though I take all such information with a healthy grain of salt).
@@richardweiss6181 Hi Richard I agree with you, I just found him knocking himself a few times is all, I look for peoples positive confidence I am also glad he is humble:)
Honestly Zach, this was the most ridiculous rant I've ever heard. Get over your self. Both flip lines work. They both have their place. That not so cool flip line saved my ass.
I have used the NRS flip lines, one on each side, for several years. I attach them directly to the frame so they ride pretty high on the tube when the boat is right side up. I have a loop tied in the flip line at just the right place so I can use it as a stirrup to assist with climbing back in the boat. To me this is their most useful feature. Never had any issue with them getting in the way or misbehaving in any manner. They seem to be a worthwhile tool and certainly do no harm. Not to concerned about looking cool. I also carry a webbing/ carabineer personal flip line in my PFD.
I agree and do carry my own flip line in my PFD for all the reasons you state here...good rant. But, I regularly have novice rafters in my raft and would like them to be able to help me flip the boat so I do have those NRS bags on the side hanging from the frame for them to use. Yes, I could give them flip lines and train them when we hit the river, but it's easier just to say "hey, pull the rope out of that bag and get up on the raft with me to pull it over..." :-)
Great point! I never thought of that.
Agreed, my guests on the raft aren’t seasoned boaters. Flipping a fully loaded gear boat takes multiple people. If your guests don’t have webbing on them, your going to be waiting for help instead of self rescuing.
Honest question.
Why a Bowlin knot over a figure 8?
I've learned a Bowlin in scouts. At NOLS WEMT. And Fire academy. I always ask and never get a solid answer..
I think they have even stopped teaching it in firefighter 1 classes.
I have worked tirelessly trying to streamline a lot of things for our newer firefighters, and have them watch your videos for other professional industries perspectives on knots and rescue. (That use them far more than us)..
The bowline is much easier to tie and untie. The figure 8 is more bomber.
Oh shite! I looked like a green horn for 29 years. Haha.
I use both, however I modified the bags. I added 1/2” webbing loop to each bag so it attaches to the frame not the D ring, stronger connection. Then tuck it under perimeter line which keeps bag accessible. Also carrier 1/2” loop with carbiner in pfd similar to yours. So bags are back up if needed. Different strokes for different folks...
That sounds awesome
Inelegant, well said. I agree that the personal flip line is more functional and readily available. All one has to do is practice the little bags and understand that it's way more comfortable and efficient to clip a biner than to fiddle with a bag over the side on a moving river.
Great to hear your perspective.
My question is: How many people and flip lines does it take to right a 14' gear boat? Having not simulated this situation, I'm assuming I couldn't do it by myself. So the question then becomes should my passenger(s) also carry personal flip lines? Would the embarrassing little rope bags be the simplest solution in such a sticky situation? Or is there even any real hope in righting a 14' gear boat; just hope it finds an eddy and deal with it on shore? I could go fully load up my boat and try to flip it, but I thought someone else might be able to tell me how it goes!
It depends how heavy the gear boat is. I can flip a light 14' gear raft by myself.
@@GearGarageTV I'm closer to 150 than 200 lbs so I lack the leverage to flip a loaded raft - having another member of the party easily help, without outfitting the crew with personal flip lines is handy.
Not to mention if you hit a rock and break the bag you will have meters of rope trailing in the water which is a potential entanglement issue.
I’ve done exactly that. Didn’t cause further problems but could have.
I’m relatively new to rafting and even though I’ve purchased flip lines, I haven’t used them for exactly that reason… dangling bags of rope seemed a bit too risky for entanglements… I like the idea carrying a flip line in my pfd & plan to give it a try!
I've seen several commercial guides wear these like belts (wrapped 2x or so) around their waist. Thoughts?
I think it’s okay if they are tight and the caribiner is locked
Hello Zach,
Just checking. Is your buddy at Super Guide still in business? I looked him up and nothing has been active since 2019. Please advise.
I’m not sure if he’s still in business. Maybe go to his web site and send him an email.
@@GearGarageTVUnfortunately his website is no longer even available. It is gone.
It looks like he had some really nice items though. Very well thought out.
BTW. Thank you very much for your very informative and clear description and discussion of the different pieces of equipment. It is quite helpful to a noob like myself.
NRS is going to put a hit out on you if keep going down this logical path. Whatever you do don't go after cargo nets next.
I happen to like my cargo net....
That's funny - someone asked me to talk about cargo nets too
The cargo nets are RAD if you have a method to the madness
@@willybumbum6682 , I've never used a cargo net, but I love my Pacific River Bag for expedition trips. It makes daily rigging easy, and it's secure.
@@willybumbum6682 Do they hold your gear in if you flip or wrap
Zach
First I deeply appreciate all the ideas and knowledge you share and most of it has been very helpful to me and generally get a lot from your knowledge, but I question you on this one. I attach my flip lines similarly to what Dennis does I use three on one side only. The primary reason is I seldom boat alone I usually have one or more passengers. On one trip I had rope inside my pfd but guess what because people travel faster in the water I floated away and unless every passenger carried your flip line in their pfd there was no flip line until I got rescued. It just seemed to me being less elegant was more important than everyone carrying your blue water (which by the way if all passengers carried one was a lot more expensive than the flip lines) flip line or the one who did have it floating down the river. I do like the idea of having a carabiner to hold onto the boat. however and make go back to keeping one for that reason.
Have you used the flip dangles to reflip your boat after a real flip?
Again first thank for even taking the time to respond shows real class, so you are asking me to bear my soul that I have actually flipped a boat, unfortunately yes I did and boy could I tell you some stories. I currently own two 16 foot self bailing rafts, most of my trips are multi day with two dry boxes, a cooler, water jugs, fire pan and four to six gear bags, no way even one person even if Dwayne Johnson is going to flip that boat over, my experience it takes a minimum of two usually three people to get it over while in the water.
Hey Zack, love the Gear Garage videos! Keep up the great work. I have a comment about the webbing that you use as a flip line.
I think I am going to go in that direction for my personal use. But since it is webbing, I kind of think the only knot we should use is the water knot. It is super easy to tie a loop into the end of webbing with the water knot just using the follow-through method. Remember to leave at least 3 inches of tail, and inspect for slippage regularly. Then you can keep your biner attached to the flip webbing and ready to go.
Cheers
Yes, that is what a lot of people do
Assuming you mean that your webbing would be tied to form a giant loop, do you have any concern about entanglement if the line were to get snagged around something unintentionally, vs having a figure eight or bowline tied off on the end with tail end of rope free? Thanks
Out of curiosity, have you ever used the flip bags? I have found my bags (I have two; one in the center of each side. I can hang in different locations if rowing a heavy gear boat) to be very helpful. It gets used often to tie off the boat for a lunch stop or any situation requiring less rope. In a flip you can (while in the water) toss the bag over the floor to your buddy or visa versa and it's much easier to pull yourself up onto an upside down boat (you just climb the rope). Maybe I'm a rookie, or not concerned about elegance, but I have found them to be useful. I guess I'm of the persuasion that there's more than one way to skin the cat so to speak.
Nope I’ve never used them. If you like them, then keep using them. I personally don’t like them for the reasons I described but there are many ways to skin a cat.
@@GearGarageTV just don't judge me if you see me with 'em. 😉 lol
@@davidpauli3189 Don't worry I'm not as judgy as I come off. I agree that there are a lot of ways to skin a cat.
@@GearGarageTV maybe it is best to try them out before judging them inferior. Great points David! It might be they are amazing but outfitters are too cheap to pay for them. We can discuss this more on Friday!
@@rivers-oceans you might be onto something. Lol
Hi Zach! love the show, just getting into rafting and the knowledge is invaluable! I'm trying to buy the right stuff the first time. Would you recommend a 10' or 12' sling? I'm 5'9' and scrawny. Thanks!
It depends on the size of your boat and a few other random factors. Either should be fine.
@@GearGarageTV Thanks!
If you are new to the job/sport this is a good place to start. There won't be much difference between 10 or 12. Tucking it between your PFD and chest is good though.
I’ve run the flipline bags before. But only 2. Get to the side of the boat with the lines. Alternatively, run 1 on each side. 4 is excessive.
I’ve since abandon them in favor of a personal tether. Agreed, a better solution
Hello my name is willie and I ran NRS flip lines too. I've been bag free for 10 years now and just want other to know they can do it too!
I attach one to each oar tower. Works great.
Cool
So Zach likes using his webbing as a whip...? Remind me not to get in a raft when he is guiding 🤣
I do a fair amount of over nights, so to have more stuff dangling to get hung up on not so good. Hey stop knocking yourself in your videos you are a good source for us all. We appreciate you here in Alberta. Having said that to each is their own, if it works for you..
I actually appreciate Zach's humility. He doesn't claim to be the perfect authoritative source of rafting wisdom, which allows me to trust his advice even more (though I take all such information with a healthy grain of salt).
@@richardweiss6181 Hi Richard I agree with you, I just found him knocking himself a few times is all, I look for peoples positive confidence I am also glad he is humble:)
You made your case...
Spot on m8
I use those flip bags as a bow line that way I don't have a coil rope on my nose
I'm with you, Zack. Flip line bags set off the Gaper Alarm in my head every time...
#spinnys-insies-outsies-rules-pins&clips-drool
Lol
Honestly Zach, this was the most ridiculous rant I've ever heard. Get over your self. Both flip lines work. They both have their place. That not so cool flip line saved my ass.
I was wondering how long it would take to get a comment like this. Don’t forget the thumbs down.