Understanding RGB and Sync :: RGB103 / MY LIFE IN GAMING
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- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2014
- What is CSYNC, Sync on Composite & Luma? Buying cables for your Framemeister can be a daunting task with all the different kinds of terminology used. Sync on Composite? Sync on Luma? CSYNC?
In this episode Try and Coury tackle the dense subject to demystify RGB and Sync.
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My Life in Gaming makes documentaries, deep dives into retro console hardware, and more. 
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It’s so weird seeing that old cable we used to use for everything here in the UK is pretty much the gold standard for retro consoles. All hail scart.
@@rap6439 Well, we still didn't. We can get the cables, but there are no displays with SCART connectors. We have to have upscalers or other equipment to handle a SCART connector.
@@rap6439 not really. Our TVs never came with SCART connectors.
@@domls1317 They did in PAL terotoriy
@@dutchgamer842 I dont live in Europe buddy. I live in the USA hence why I said we never got the scart input on our tvs
Yeeeeah, I have old lcd full hd tv that has scart port 😎 And whole my life i used this for television 😐
i just found the greatest channel ever
Straight from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YPbPr, this is why luma is abbreviated as Y:
"Before the advent of color television, the Y axis on an oscilloscope display of a video waveform represented the intensity of the scan line. With color, Y still represents intensity but it is a composite of the component colors."
The translation of the French name of the organization that made SCART is “Union of Manufacturers of Radio Receivers and Televisions”.
Ok so SCART is an acronym for a french association but in France we call them péritel
@I DUBZH Le nom c'est Peritelevision, Peritel c'est comme dire "frigo"
Que estan ablando
@@joshuapacmanFrances
Just got an XRGB recently after using a cheapish SCART to HDMI box for the longest time and was wondering why none of my SCART cables would work on it. Researched quite a bit last night and just now discovered that JP21 is not the same as EuroSCART, so had to nab an adapter for that and will be waiting a few more weeks.
This was an excellent crash course on JP21, SCART, and different types of sync though which is much appreciated :D
thanks for helping me mod my ps3 vro i got some HD retrovision Component cables for it linked to my sony Trinitron CRT and she work like a dream
One other thing to consider is how some cables might include built-in sync "strippers" or sync "cleaners" that, while useful in some setups, can cause more harm than good if the rest of your setup isn't tailored to accommodate them.
For many consoles, you can build a SCART cable to pull sync directly from one of many available pins on the AV port, be it the composite video pin, the luma pin, or the standalone c-sync pin for the consoles that have them. But some cables tap into the composite video pin and have an LM1881 chip inside the cabling that strips away the extraneous video data, with only the sync data remaining. Effectively, such cables take composite video (or luma) as input and give you c-sync for output. This gives you a simple and effective way of getting the highest quality sync signal out of a console like the PS1 and PS2, which have luma and +5V pins on their AV ports but no c-sync. Just take that luma signal and convert it into c-sync inside the cable, with no extra external devices needed.
This does, however, introduce another point of possible failure or incompatibility into your display chain. Such a chip would need to draw power from somewhere, and the only logical place to do so would be the console's AV port. Many AV ports have a +5V pin there that can be used for exactly this purpose, but if that pin doesn't exist, if that pin isn't producing a precise +5V signal for some reason, or if the cable is hooked into another device that also needs to draw power from the same source, then the addition of a sync stripper may cause more problems than it solves. The NESRGB board, for example, does output a +5V signal that can be wired to the AV port that you install on the back of the console, but the modder I got to install my board forgot to actually connect that signal to the AV port. As such, I can't really use a device that needs to tap into the AV port for extra power. (Although, in this specific example, that doesn't matter in practice because the NESRGB also has its own c-sync output, which is connected to my AV port.)
I'd only advise buying such cables if (1) the console doesn't output a good c-sync signal of its own, (2) you're pretty sure that a c-sync signal would be superior than other sync options that the console natively produces (e.g. sync-on-composite produces visible artifacts), (3) you can't insert a sync stripper into the console itself (e.g. modding the internals of the N64 so that its AV port outputs c-sync), and (4) you absolutely hate clutter and really don't want to have to buy an external sync stripper like the Sync Strike if you don't have to.
Example and how-to: retrorgb.com/syncstripper.html
One *very* slight addition concerning your mentioning that you can use yellow/red/white cables as component cable substitutes . . . most cheap molded RCA cables do indeed use the same type of wire for all connectors. This is true of yellow/red/white cables, component video with red/white audio, etc. While you can get away with using the wrong color and still get picture or sound, this isn't an absolutely ideal connection, as the specifications for composite video cables and component video cables are different from those of analog stereo audio. While composite and component video connections are on a standard RCA plug, those video signals are actually meant to be carried by a cable with a constant 75-ohm resistance. This is also how digital coax signals (S/PDIF over RCA) are best carried, but this constant resistance isn't ideal for stereo analog audio (the red and the white). Depending on how the cables are constructed, you're unlikely to encounter a problem, but purists may want to use proper cables for video and proper ones for audio. Just because they're all terminated with RCA cables doesn't mean that the wire connecting them is the same. My apologies if this has already been addressed!
Aside from that one slight thing, I wish that I had found this channel before I bought my XRGB mini, as it would have saved me a lot of research and digging, but I suppose that's half of the fun. At the very least, you would have saved me lots of time in locating the places to buy the necessary cables! I'm still in my post-emulation infancy and am only Saturn and Dreamcast-equipped so far (JP-21 for Saturn and Toro Box and Scart for DC, although I'll shortly be getting my model-1 Genesis and Power Base Converter! I can't wait, as I grew up with a Master System and Genesis! This is a dangerous hobby, as I once owned SO many difference consoles and now I want them all back!)
This channel is absolutely terrific, and you guys do a fantastic job of breaking things down. Your episodes are logically themed, segmented, and constructed. Thank you for taking the time to do this. After all of my research, I had half of an inkling to try to assemble a primer for people, but found the idea waaaay too daunting. Then I happened upon your channel. For once, RUclips was spot-on in a recommendation! It's nice to know that I'm not alone in my quest to preserve these important artifacts of my past and my desire to be able to experience them in their best form, short of lugging a soon-to-be-broken CRT around.
Thanks to both of you, and please keep up the superlative work!
I know understand why the jump from composite to s-video is so huge....while going from s-video to component is a much less noticeable upgrade. The way you guys word things along with the graphical representations breaks it down really well. This video series is awesome!
This series is changing my life! Thank you
Where has this channel been all my life? Awesome video in terms of content and production. It really cleared things up for me.
Thank you guys once again for the awesome video. I will be getting all my cables and xrgb mini next month and now I feel like i know exactly what i need to get everything!
[Try4ce] Excited that you're getting it! I've always been a big retro game fan, and the Framemeister has amplified that by like 5 times of what it already was.
Again, great video! Excellent exploration of a topic that is frustratingly difficult to understand for anyone who isn't a video engineer.
Fantastic video! I recently started using RGB SCART into an HD upscaler for my Super Nintendo, and hadn't really known conclusively if CSYNC was the way to go for my SCART cable itself. Your presentation of it here makes me glad I made the right choice. Thank you!
Liked, favorited, and shared.
Re-doing my game room has been on my list of big purchases for some time now but has been on hold for 2 years after my son was born. Starting this year all of it is going to come together 1 piece at a time and these over informative high detail videos are exactly what an AV over analizer needs to make it all perfect.
Keep up the fantastic work.
[Try4ce] Thanks, and good luck! Putting together and organizing a gaming setup is always really exciting and satisfying!
Finally! A video where rgb sync is explained. Thank you!
[Try4ce] We've only very recently come to a firm understanding of it ourselves. It's amazing how much info is out there! But it's really hard to break it all down when you're new to the subject. Hopefully we've made it a little easier to get started.
Great video... In-depth explanation... If anybody doesn't understand RGB or a glimpse of it after seeing this then it's their own fault
Agree. I think they they explained it very well.
Extremely educational! Thank You!!
I've been through several SCART switchers over the years and to be honest, it's such a minefield, you're probably better off doing the way you do now.
But if you do get one, for the love of god make sure its a mains powered one, as non-powered ones result in a darker muddy picture and also make sure it's RGB SCART (which is what you're using) a lot of companies have SCART and RGB SCART ports on the back of TVs here (mainly to save money) and regular SCART uses less pins, even if you have all the pins in the plug. It's okay for VHS players Etc. but for gaming it's no better than RF.
So it is a complete headache getting the right one. The best ever SCART switcher I ever bought came from QVC of all places :D
***** [Coury] We've been messing with a number of different switchers for awhile now, but definitely haven't found one we're 100% happy with. I'm currently using an unpowered manual Bandridge switcher that makes things slightly darker and introduces a little noise. Its not perfect, but I'm happy with it for the time being. I'd love to get one that is powered and cleans that up - as soon as there is a virtually perfect solution, I'll be all over it.
*****
Yup you definitely need a mains powered switcher, the unpowered ones are really for non-RGB and for VHS players Etc.
Have you tried searching the various European Amazon sites out of curiosity? It's what I do for hard to get stuff.
***** I currently use the Brandridge VSB7735. It has five scart inputs and one output. It requires a 12 volt adapter and performs automatic input switching based on the active device. It also allows you to manually select an input in case you have multiple devices turned on at the same time using the buttons on the front. I am mostly a SEGA collector. I managed to succesfully connect the master system, genesis, saturn and dreamcast ( vga over scart ) to this SCART switch into the framemeister. All inputs are shielded from each other and i didn't notice any interference. I am very happy with it so far.
msh1044 thanks a lot man, This was really helpful. Hopefully just what I need to get a few systems hooked up to my trinitron's solitary component :)
You really are everywhere
Amazing video, really so helpful. I have been very confused by the whole sync thing, even after email a few sellers of SCART cables. Your channel is great, one of my favourite retro game related channels on youtube! Keep up the good work!
Thanks for this video! Excellent information presented clearly as usual.
Thanks for making this video. You explained the various sync terms very well.
realevostevo [Try4ce] Thanks! We wanted to learn too, so the process of research for this video was a great deal of help to us as well!
I hate that I have to keep coming back and watching this video but at the same time I'm super thankful that this video exists. Thanks.
Those guys are so, so , I mean, so underated. Like, wow. You guys deserve way more views! Content is gold in all RGB videos!
world is stupid thats why
Literally never heard of SCART cables until today, apparently nobody else felt it necessary to explain what these cables are besides you. Thank you for the video.
this is such an old video at this point but still THANK YOU.... i had no idea you could plug red/yellow/white component cables into YPbPr inputs, i have SO MANY things that use the red/yellow/white cables and not enough hookups, so this is a life saver!!
Thanks guys! Really great video with some excellent information!
Great video series. I'd really like to see your guys' cable management and what methods you use to keep things organized and clean looking in your retro setups.
+Jeremy Baker [Try4ce] That's something I'd like to see too... if I ever got my setup stabilized enough to do it! Every time I think I've got things pretty well organized and managed, creating each RGB episode causes me to move systems, plug in a million different cables, and make a mess of everything all over again!
Thank you for clearing all of that up!
This series continues to be the best RUclips source I've seen on these topics. You're doing a great job.
Two comments on specific topics briefly touched upon in this video:
- You can get C-Sync out of an N64, but only if the C-Sync pin on the console's AV port is correctly wired up to provide it. In my experience, a lot of modders won't do this unless you specifically request it because, as you've explained in this video, sync can be obtained from the composite video pin instead. But if you want to get C-Sync cables for all of your consoles and be able to share a C-Sync RGB cable between an N64, SNES, and even an RGB-modded NES with a multi-out, then you just have to make sure that C-Sync pin for each of those consoles is wired for it.
- A lot of retro consoles (Master System, Genesis, NTSC SNES, 32X, NTSC Saturn) have dedicated C-Sync pins on their AV port, but some (Playstation 1 & 2) don't. For these, getting RGB cables that draw the sync signal from the S-Video Luma pin (Sync-on-Luma) is generally the preferred way to go when it's an option since there's less unnecessary data getting in the way of the signal.
I've also been told that the C-Sync pin on the Sega Nomad is bugged and produces a scrambled picture. Never tested it myself, but regular Sync-on-Composite cables might be required for that one.
One thing I'd be interested in learning more about is Sync-on-Green (usually abbreviated RGsB instead of the standard SCART RGBs), which is kind of a rare configuration. Instead of carrying the RGB signal across 4 pins (red, green, blue, sync), it only uses 3 (red, green + sync, blue). I've heard that this can actually be used to get 480p RGB out of a PS2, which is interesting because most SCART devices seem to max out at 480i/240p. No idea how much of this is true or where to find more details, though, and I'm not sure if it'd be any better or worse than YPbPr anyway.
Ah! So CSYNC is possible on N64. Unfortunately, at the time, I didn't know any better than to simply request "RGB mod." Can probably be upgraded by another modder for less money than it would cost to work around the situation. I also wish we'd thought to mention sync on luma for RGB. Silly oversight because we both have sync on luma SCART for PS2. I've read some about sync on green, but wasn't sure if it had any gaming applications.
***** Is sync on luma as good as CSYNC? I'm considering getting an RGB Scart for my PAL Gamecube but I don't know what type of sync I would need.
Thanks guys! You are great! SO I finally understand what a "Sync on LUMA SCART Cable" (for the PlayStation) is! :D :)
Such a good video for explaining sync. Thank you 😉
Part of why getting a new console back in the day, was more exciting than now, is the massive jump in pure image quality you'd see. I can remember jumping from Master System (RF), to Megadrive (Composite), to Saturn (RGB Scart), to Dreamcast (RGB VGA). It wasn't just the better graphics, but the cleaner images that blew you away.
Great work guys.
these two are entertaining and informative.
Awesome video guys, I honestly learned a few things I did not know.
[Try4ce] Thanks! I could learn more than a few things about the Commodore 64 myself!
Awesome video as always, I'm loving this series, pretty much all your videos actually.
Any development on the SCART switcher situation? When that's finally resolved, that'll deserve a video all on it's own I bet.
[Try4ce] I've made some progress. Some of my issues have been resolved with the hardware I've been working with, but the image is off-center. The Framemeister can fix that, but the amount can vary by console, which is a pain. Now that this video is done, I hope to spend some time figuring out that situation. There are also a few other alternatives I'm considering, but I don't feel comfortable recommending anything quite yet.
Thanks a bunch! Now I can buy the RIGHT cable this time.
I bought an RGB modded N64 and was concerned it may not have been done properly. After watching your video I think it's good, which is a relief. When the seller said composite sync I thought, ugh! I don't want composite, that stinks! You guys are doing a GREAT job clearly explaining and saving me the pain of making a bunch of mistakes myself. Much appreciated.
Awesome Video!
Thanks for this, very informative
Ragazzi siete davvero bravi!
Guys, this was so helpful... thank you.
some great information here, thanks!
Excellent video guys, presented difficult to grasp information succinctly, and followed it up with visual aids to assist in understanding. Simply fantastic. One request: a follow up video showing EXACTLY which cables (including model #s if possible) and what order they go in from console to TV.
G D [Coury] Thanks! We actually have a "200" and "300" series in the works. The 200 will cover individual consoles going over all the options you have for video with it.
And the 300 will be specific in depth subjects, such as "Vs the Retron 5" and " Framemeister menu settings"
why is it that the more of these videos I watch the more confused I get?! LOL information overload!
[Try4ce] It's a summary of lots of info that we've spent two years learning about, from not even knowing that this stuff existed! It's certainly quite an info dump, but we hope it's a concise overview of the essentials.
depends where you started alot of RGB/component guides online are recycled information from one person to another and it could be in accurate...as well its nice they mention the JP-21 and UK scart cable differences. some places it does matter what you specify when buying, if its not NTSC system - JP system - UK system laid out
My Life in Gaming how will I know if I can use sync on Luma or csync? I want to buy a scart cable for my ps2.
Insanely high quality video production... still find myself confused, it would really help to bring together all the info into point form, or at least put onto a web page and link to that... one of the greatest problem with youtube is that you spend such a long time to find information that could be conveyed in a few seconds via a good web page...
Kudos for the probing links you did include in the info section though.
Subscribed :)
another great video guys. im learning a lot from these. im about to get a SCART to HDMI upscaler to use for my Genesis and Sega CD and really cant wait. right now im still using composite connection to my HDTV which looks really hideous. but ya these videos are a huge help for someone like me just getting into it. so thanks!
[Try4ce] Being able to get RGB from an unmodded Genesis was a big selling point of the system for me! I had no idea that was possible until I learned about the Framemeister, and I really didn't want to have another console that was only capable of composite video. I only put up with it for the NES because I love it so much!
That one dislike must be a troll. Seriously.
You did a great job at explaining all of this!
I NEVER EVEN HEARD OF SYNC!
So I have an RGB modded N64. It has the latest Tim Worthington board equipped with de-blur. I have a basic SCART cable that I bought off the guy who modded it for me. I have the system routed through the OSSC 1.6 (great unit by the way) and every so often I'll see a kind of strobing effect on the screen. I've been looking into new cables and from what I can gather, sync on luma is the preferable choice for the N64. However, I've also read that certain RGB boards might require CSYNC to perform optimally, but I haven't seen too much about specifics on which boards those may be.
My gut is telling me sync on luma is the way to go, but I thought I'd ask around and get a second opinion.
And thanks for all your awesome content! You got me hooked on retro upscaling solutions and now I am absolutely loving the OSSC 1.6. I haven't tried it over my 4K inputs on my Sony X800D yet, but 5x scaling to 1080p looks great!
+SoncTheHedgehogMaker [Try4ce] You should go with luma, I'd say. If anything, I've heard CSYNC could be trouble in some cases.
Thanks Try! You guys are great!
If you continue the "Framemeister series" i would love to see what settings you have enabled/disabled for a specific consoles on the xrgb-mini itself.
[Try4ce] This is a video that we would also love to make. We haven't started writing it yet, but I'd like to get to it very soon. We will also soon start a series that goes over all of the options for hooking up specific consoles.
Great video as always guys. For those of you like myself who bought SCART cables with non-CSYNC to go with your XRGB-Mini and only read about this after buying, here's a few tricks if you don't want to spend more money.
You have 2 ways of limiting the appearance those diagonal lines (limiting as in they are technically still there but you barely notice them).
1- Increase the HDMI output. If I use the SNES Legend of Zelda example from the video, I can see those diagonal lines in the TriForce if I output with the XRGB-Mini at 480p. At 720p, I can see them, if I put on my glasses and at 1080p, I can't see them even with my glasses. That being said, I have a 40" LED TV, so your results may vary on a bigger TV.
2- Use the scanlines feature of the XRGB-Mini. Scanlines are so much more noticeable than the diagonal lines and are also cut in half by those said scanlines. If you are going to use scanlines, use them in either 480p or 720p output since they don't look that great in 1080p.
[Try4ce] Thanks! Another option, which some people may disagree with, is setting the Framemeister picture mode to "Standard." The preferred mode is "Natural," though Standard is the default. Standard mode can smudge some of the details, though I personally didn't notice this for the longest time. However, it can also help get rid of those patterns, which I'd say is worth it. Natural mode looks crisper than Standard mode when using CSYNC cables, but using sync on the composite video signal isn't too good for this mode.
***** True, diagonal lines are less noticeable in Standard mode mainly because the image is compressed horizontally (from left to right). Took me a couple of days to figure out why my retro games looked so weird until I notice that my characters were so thin, hence why googled the info.
I found out that Natural (or Natural2 as it's called) leaves to original pixel aspect ratio while Standard will try to squeeze in the image in a 4:3 aspect while leaving boarders on the left and right side. So your game image itself is no longer 4:3 but more like 4:3 compressed in +/- 3:3 if that makes any sense.
[Try4ce] Not sure if we're talking about the same thing. I think you might be talking about the scaling modes, one being called "Standard" which I think is the one I use. There are also image modes, which is more about how the image is treated. There's a "Standard" in that menu too, but it's a totally different meaning and application.
***** Oh that Standard, hehe, this is what happens when you have 2 buttons on the remote with the same name. What I said about the "scaling Standard" still holds, but I will give "processing Standard" a try.
EDIT: I tried the "processing Standard" mode. It indeed makes the diagonal lines pretty invisible regardless of the output resolution. That being said, the scrolling is not as smooth as the "processing Picture" mode on 240p games. So I guess it's one of those "pick your poison" deals if you got with "processing Standard" mode.
Great video, thx !!!
This video is so fascinating even though I have no idea what exactly is being explained. I think I’ll just stick to emulating my games 😅
Great video! I have decided to press the "Thumbs up" icon to enhance your RUclips fame and help you gain financial prosperity.
My SCART to RGB converter for the XFramemeisterMini has an LM1881 chip inside of it for the sync. Even then, the Framemeister cannot see video from my TurboGrafx. Well it can see it, but it can't make sense of it. Everything is stretched super crazy. However if I run the TurboGrafx video through a Sync Stripper (which has the same LM1881 chip) the XPC-4 (which, like the Framemeister, was made by the developers of After Burner 2 on the Genesis) can see it. But some games cut in and out like crazy.
[Try4ce] I've recently gotten the adapter with the chip too. I haven't fully tested it yet to discern all of the benefits, but my hope was that it would get me around issues I've been having with trying to get switchers working. It works great with all of my systems, but I don't have a Turbografx.
To Quote Wikipedia and the internet.
The signals carried by SCART include both composite and RGB (with composite synchronisation) video, stereo audio input/output and digital signalling. The standard was extended at the end of the 1980s to support the new S-Video signals. A TV can be awakened from standby mode, and it can automatically switch to appropriate AV channel, when the device attached to it through a SCART connector is turned on.
www.mmmonkey.co.uk/composite-sync-stripper-lm1881/
Is it more likey your NTSC TV is the problem. As SCART is based on the Euro PAL signal.
www.diffen.com/difference/NTSC_vs_PAL
The Pumpking King
Errr... no. It's going through a Framemeister. No NTSC TV involved. Also NTSC/PAL is irrelevant. The cable doesn't care about 50Hz or 60Hz.
This is an important point that we should've made sometime. It may seem weird to use a European cabling standard on North American consoles, but the cables themselves have nothing to do with NTSC or PAL.
Game Sack Have you tried changing the sync level on the Framemeister?
Good stuff sirs. Being a Brit this sort of thing was something we always had to wade through when finding decent cables, and that was after the minefield that is gimmicky stuff most companies would chuck all over the packaging like gold plating and all that.
One dumb thing worth noting, for anyone looking to copy your set ups, if you're buying a SCART cable for the first time check it actually has 21 pins. Some had a lot less because they were non-RGB and kinda sucked.
[Try4ce] Never heard of that! The nice thing about doing RGB today instead of back-in-the-day, is that there are people who make and sell custom cables, even in North America. Some of these cables are even designed to do things that the original cables released in Europe or Japan couldn't do. For example, the SNES issue mentioned in the video. We can get cleaner images today, using custom cables, but still within the capabilities of the consoles!
Yeah they were a pain if you got one by accident. Often they'd be packed with cheap DVD and VHS players. This Wiki article has a little info on them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART#Practical_considerations
They're basically composite video in a SCART shape.
Ya, like those sellers on ebay selling SCART cables that carries composite signal for an NES telling you that you will get a better picture. It will give you the same image as with with RCA composite only with a SCART plug on the end.
I wish Retro Console Accessories store was up at the moment! Need to get me some cables!
There's one auction up that indicates that regular listings should appear again after the holidays.
Did you get your Sega Genesis SCART cables from them?
[Try4ce] Yup! I actually got my CSYNC Genesis cable in the past few weeks. I'd been using sync on composite for Genesis for a long time, but honestly never really saw the same obvious patterns that I'd see on SNES. Personally, I think Genesis looks especially great in RGB, something about it just really pops.
Best place on the web for SCART cables. I love that seller!
***** INDEED!! The Genesis/MD SCART output is probably the best of all the consoles overall with the PS1 a close second. I wish the SCART signal was better on the SNES but overall it's still a HUGE improvement.
Great video btw. I dealt with all these isues late last year when I bought a Framemeister Mini & had to get all the different cables for my systems but Retro Console Accessories on ebay REALLY helped me out by answering all my questions.
i had that checkerboard effext on my snes using my rgb scart cable which used sync on composite. after opening up the av connector side and wiring that to the luma pin it cleaned up the image.
Just let me know when I can hire you to set up all my consoles for RGB. Only problem may be that I pay with hugs.
It's GameDave! YaY! :3
[Try4ce] Unfortunately, we can only accept payment in chocolate chip cookies. Depending on the going exchange rate of hugs to cookies, we might be able to work out a deal.
***** I hope there's a conversion chart in the back of my Vectrex manual...
RGB is fantastic. I have RGB SCART cables for the PlayStation 1 (currently ordered as I ordered it last night), PlayStation 2, GameCube and Wii, all CSYNC. The PlayStation cables are the GunCon cables which will be useful for the Light Gun games if you want better quality
Brilliant :)
Nice, you keep the Sega CD #1 version too. I always thought it was the sleeker more trendy model.
All my retro is on a pvm via scart. It's amazing. I buy the cheap scart cables on amazon and they all work. No fuss or research needed. None of them say Luma or sync etc but they work.
[Try4ce] Noise is less visible on a CRT, it's true, but you can still see it depending on the clarity of the display.
great video by the way some fantastic information i will link you to my page.
Another great video from both of you guys, as always. You introduced me to a world I never knew existed before!
Question though, if I want to make my N64 CSYNC compatible, how do you change the signal or implement the "sync strike"? I never heard of those things before and my N64 footage is rather grainy.
[Try4ce] It's worth noting that you should keep modest expectations for what you can get out of N64... remember that we're talking about early 3D graphics running at a 240p resolution. No matter what you do, you're never going to get stunning high res out of the original hardware. Don't expect the same benefit that you can get from consoles that predominantly display 2D graphics.
That said, RGB certainly can make the colors more appealing, and give the overall image a bit more contrast and clarity. I've only just learned from the comments on this video that CSYNC output is possible on N64, if the mod is wired up for it. I've got sync on the composite video signal for N64's RGB. I just didn't know any better when I asked to get the system modded. This isn't really a problem, because N64's graphics generally aren't as clean as say, what you normally see on 16-bit consoles. So I rarely notice the visual noise that RGB sync-on-composite can produce, which is much more clearly seen on consoles like NES or SNES. As for using the sync strippers, well, that's not something I can provide a whole lot of info about. There's a sync stripping function on an SCART switcher that I'm trying to implement into my setup, and the newer SCART adapter that I bought for the Framemeister also has a sync cleaning function. I haven't yet had a chance to thoroughly test these and determine just what kinds of differences can be seen.
Great video as always. Thanks!
Could you please make another video about in-depth XRGB-Mini settings for various consoles and cables? It's very confusing without English manual.
[Try4ce] I'd really like to do that! We really want to do a lot more with this series, and have been considering all of the possibilities.
I could be incorrect, but my understanding is that the RCA video cables have to have an impedance of 75 ohms while RCA audio cables don't. While I am sure quite a few are, i could see there being some distortion in brightness/contrast if an audio cable was used for Y, or color distortion if used in Pb or Pr. On the other hand, who knows how much it really matters?
8:56 "...VGA, which you'll recognize as the connection that you used to use on your computer monitor"
Only NOW does that statement apply to me! I've used a VGA monitor for about TWENTY-THREE YEARS. The HDMI out on my computer goes to my Elgato capture card for desktop recordings. Last month, the VGA card on my computer lost its reds and I had to shell out for a HDMI splitter and HDMI compatible monitor.
This video actually made me curious about something. I wonder how HDMI handles sync. Maybe Roo from the Clan of the Gray Wolf can explain on an episode of The Way Games Work.
[Try4ce] Well, HDMI is digital, so it's either gonna work, or not work, rather than having varying degrees of "sort of working." Since there's not much to worry about with HDMI working, I haven't really done research on it, but digital video does line up the pixels in its own way.
I thought that I knew all that I needed to know about video cables but I had no idea about sync. This video gave me a clear description of what it is and the different terms used to describe its many varieties. Thank you!
09:20 hat's really interesting, i had that problem on my snes jr and it drove me nuts! ended up doing a minor solder bridge that fixed it. i then realized that when i first got into rgb i ordered a cheap scart cable that i had no idea how it was wired, i just thought that because it worked with my xrgb mini that it was csync. im waiting on a delivery from retro_console_accessories so ill find out for sure,
i took the extra step of getting them to have the audio run from the multiout to rca connections (bypassing the scart head straight to my stereo system) separating any chance that the audio signal being a influence in my scart hub or Framemeister.
Have you guys thought about making a video about how to get the best sound quality from retro and modern systems? I know it's not as complicated as video as there are less steps involved but I think it can be very informative to people showing the difference between RCA, Optical, and HDMI. Also whether or not it's worth getting a nice pair of speakers or surround sound system compared to just using the crappy speakers built into HDTV's.
[Try4ce] I'm not as much of an audiophile as I am a videophile, but audio is of course an essential part of the setup. Since my receiver is from 2006 and doesn't properly handle HDMI audio, I'm stuck using a lot of fiber optic cables (Coury's situation is similar). I have thought about making something that focuses on audio, though I think my audio setup for streaming might be of more interest than my setup for just regular play.
*****
How do you have your Dreamcast hooked up? New HDTV's no longer have a VGA port and it can be a little complicated to hook it up to the XRGB-mini as additional accessories are needed.
[Try4ce] My Dreamcast is actually not hooked up. I got it for free, and don't have any games! Coury doesn't have his ideal setup for it just yet, but maybe he has something to add here. If I'm not mistaken, the VGA is typically converted to YPbPr to go into the Framemeister.
austin532 Look into the Dreamcast VGA boxes made by Beharbros. I think their newest model (Toro) is specifically designed for Framemeister compatibility. I have an older model (Kuro) that works great, as it properly supports both 480p and 240p games via VGA/RGB (which most DC VGA boxes are not capable of).VGA-to-YPbPr transcoders would be the second-best option.
I have a decent system hooked up, and am as much an audiophile as a videophile. In general terms, any audio system is probably better than the TV speakers. HDMI is capable of way better quality than optical, however games rarely use it. When they do, it is the same difference as with blu ray movies.
In technical terms, optical is only capable of stereo lossless audio. When using multichannel audio though toslink (optical) you are limited to DD or DTS, which is analog to a multichannel mp3 at 1.5mbps at most in DTS, and around 500kb in DD. For comparison, HDMI can give you 9mbps of uncompress audio, or compressed in lossless at 2-3 mbps.
RCA audio is the only option in many consoles, if you have the option for optical or HDMI against RCA go for it. It will give you multichannel and/or less noise because of a pure digital path.
Followup: My Framemeister arrived yesterday, and I spent some time getting it all hooked up and programmed they way I wanted. My display is a Sony 55-inch LED LCD I bought for $2,000 a couple years ago. It was expensive, but supposedly extremely fast response time with no detectable lag in "game mode" (all upscaling and processing filters turned off). So I first hooked my SNES APU revision console up via JP-21 csync and was blown away at how clear the picture looked. However, when I plugged my SNES 1-CHIP-03 (last revision of the original model), I was saddened to find the csync isn't internally hooked up inside the console. Thankfully I found out the mod for fixing this is relatively simple, and I was able to do it myself. It worked perfectly, and I cannot stress enough how ABSOLUTELY RAZOR SHARP the pixels are on the 1-CHIP-03 with RGB CSYNC! Imagine an emulator hooked up to your display, now realize that it's not an emulator, but the actual hardware! That's what it's like. There is a downside though, and that's the 1-CHIP series isn't 100% compatible with the entire SNES library. Some games have minor graphical issues in the top line, and even worse is I discovered Secret of Evermore crashes after the opening logo, rendering it unplayable on a 1-CHIP-03. So for that game, I'll have to hook the APU SNES back up in order to play it.
At any rate, there is literally no detectable lag on my setup, so I'm extremely happy with the outcome. Worth every penny!
Update: After modding the CSYNC on the 1-CHIP-03, I tried Secret of Evermore and it actually works now! I can't figure out why this is. It would crash after the logo fades out, but now seems to work fine after the mod. I have no idea why this mod seemingly fixed that loading bug.
KarbuncleX
[Try4ce] I recall Coury having issues on his 1-chip 01 with Demon's Crest and one other game. If I recall, this issue was fixed when he moved from sync-on-composite to CSYNC. I don't know exactly why this is, but I think it has something to do with how stuff is loaded into the RAM, and how that works in conjunction with the video output... but I'm not techy enough to really say for sure if that's right.
*****
I think I figured out what the problem was, and it seems to be the interface leads. They are more sensitive than I've dealt with before. I've had subsequent games crash in the intro or not load at all. They seem to work better when I polish the cart leads using a pink eraser, though Secret of Evermore had unused leads. It may just be the thickness level of the cart boards themselves, and this game might have a slightly thinner one that doesn't make a good contact with the leads in the console.
firstly really wanna thank you guys for your videos, think i watched all and some twice, great content! I got a problem i was hoping to bother you with :) Recently got a b&o mx6000 for retro CRT gaming, and im about to change all my composite cables to RGB over SCART instead, so i ordered some. The SNES to RGB SCART cable worked without a hitch, flawless picture and colour separation. But when i hooked in my new Wii RGB SCART (i live in Sweden by the way so my Wii has RGB instead of US version Svideo capabilities) i noticed right away there was no improvement over composite, same RED and blue dither color bleeding. I think the problem is my snes RGB cable is uses sync differently so that works great.. and the Wii RGB cabel is wired for sync on composite pin 20 and my B&O does not recognice there is a RGB signal and uses pin 20 for picture instead of syncing the RGB. Could this be true, that the B&O does accept my SNES RGB cable but Not my Wii RGB cable because of limitations in the tv, or is a tv setting needed to play with? Hope i am making any sense describing this. Any and all help whould be appriciated :) If i had a US model Wii i would just use s-video and be happy, but my PAL version Wii does not support this unfotuntaly.
My deduction is therfore that my b&o TV cant take sync on composite but instead require csync for RGB, information on this cant be found in the TVs manual or in searhing google, hence i cant confirm this , but it seems the most logical conclution, whould you agree? Also what can i do? is there a separate Wii RGB cable that uses csync, or do i need to get my hands on a Sync Strike or a Sync in Scart Board and a solder iron to test my therory? Thanks!
[Try4ce] Unfortunately I'm not sure, though that does give us some ideas for things we need to research regarding the PAL Wii for whenever we get around to a Wii episode. My best guess is that you are at least correct in that the TV is using the composite video signal instead of RGB. Whether it's a compatibility issue, I'm not sure... because I think sync-on-composite is kind of the SCART "default" if I'm not mistaken. PAL GameCube only does sync-on-composite, but I don't know about PAL Wii. I'm honestly not too sure what to do, but some sort of sync cleaner could be the answer. Of course, the other big question is if it's a regular Wii, not a Wii Mini? Because the Wii Mini ONLY supports composite video, which would definitely explain the issue.
Thanks a lot for replying, yes sorry I didn't mention but I have the RVL-001 model, the one with all the game cube ports still on it. Ok so if both SNES and Wii output rgb with sync on composite, could it be the rgb signal is weaker on the Wii, and that could mean tv does not sense it and defaults back to using composite altogether, is that a sound theory you think ? All the best!
Actual useful video starts @1:14
Composite?
Worst possible video?
I'd differ, RF is worse.
It even squeezes the sound in there too..
I agree Composite is light years better then RF
NeedMoreMushrooms yeah I think it is not even considered an analog format, rather a radio format.
Radio isn't an analog format? lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
depends are we talking AM or FM band ..because all modern FM broadcasting yeah let's just say that "static" you hear on the FM band is actually artificial , it's placed there to let you know you're not tuned in properly otherwise you'd just have dead air when not tuned in properly.
AM is ALL analog all of the time though.
Thanks for the great video. I've been somewhat confused by the different video types. I've been looking at getting a Framemeister really soon and learned I could use the JP-21 cable on my SNES. I had been trying to figure out which cables to get for it and had found an ebay seller with tons of cables. I have it narrowed down to the CSYNC or the sync-on-luma one. It said that if you had an RGB N64 to get the sync-on-luma one and it worked on the SNES as well. Not sure if you meant that one left the checker board artifacts or just the Sync on Composite.
+Yomi Kibagami [Try4ce] I can't tell the difference between sync-on-luma and CSYNC, even if CSYNC is technically cleaner. In fact, sync-on-composite can look just as good if it has upgraded shielding... but that's usually an extra cost that has to be specifically requested.
+My Life in Gaming Awesome! Thanks for the clarifying info. I'll probly end up getting the Luma one since it would work for my N64 if I get it modded.
I've watched your first three videos in this series and I have to say it comes off as a paid-for-tv ad for framemeister and the RGB mods.
That said your videos are absolutely what I've been looking for for setting up a retro console 'switchboard' (what are they called?) for my entertainment system. If the framemeister and the rgbboards are as good as you're projecting, well then, I'm okay with that.
(Disclaimer: I don't *actually* think you've been paid off, only that the series *seems* like it.)
+Goerno [Coury] I can understand how it comes off that way. The first couple of episodes are focused around it, but you'll find that later on, especially the console specific episodes won't feature it really at all.
great video Im glad some people out there are trying to help. I have a big question I wished could have been in the vid...
If I have a sony pvm 1943md which has a built in sync stripper should I still get a cable with Csync>? the set up I have is a 1 chip snes with the PVM monitor waiting on the cables. I ordered a NTCS snes to male SCART to female scartx 4 BNC should I cancel and get the cable with csync?
I've had my PVM for 2 years and have been only using composite... I just ordered my first mod for RGB for my NES Toploader
I bought a scart cable from retrogamingcables for my PS1. I got the Csync cable. I used it with a scart to hdmi converter, and I notice that I have the artifact problem shown in the video at the 9:20 mark. Is this due to the cable not actually being Csync?
Loving the show, and appreciate the depth you guys go into surrounding the XRGB.
Picked up a Euro Scart cable (sorry not sure what sync style) for me PAL Dreamcast.
Sadly I can only hear the audio through my XRGB.(HDMI out)
I've since heard that playing a Dreamcast through Scart can be tricky, hoping to get your thoughts and assistance.
Cheers!
[Try4ce] Yeah, I think that SCART is generally not recommended for the Dreamcast, because certain games that output at certain resolutions may not work over it... or something like that. I haven't heard of audio issues, but I also haven't researched the system a ton. I'm not too well-versed in the Dreamcast, and in fact, only just bought my first game for it a week ago. I also bought a cheap S-video cable, because I don't know yet if I want to put the money into buying the best video output for it (those VGA boxes for it can be a bit expensive). I'm not sure about S-video from a PAL Dreamcast, but if the PAL console supports it, then that might be a more versatile (and cheaper) option in the interim than SCART until you decide to buy a VGA box (a box called the "Toro" is apparently THE one to get, but it's like $80 or something).
Thank you so very much for the prompt reply and feedback. Will give S-Video a go, and see how we go.
If you're a Super Turrican fan, might I suggest Gun Lord? Thanks again, and enjoy your Dreamcast experience!
so I'm currently building my shopping carts for everything to re-do my gaming room. (will post video when completed) but hitting a few snags in terms of terminology. the SCART to 8pin RGB in particular. some have a basic description while others have a built in LM1881N sync stripper. this seems to be the only variant I've found. with CSYNC/boosted being just a little bit more expensive, does this lose that sync information and force through the composite signal?
Please do a video on getting 15khz via emu crtdriver to a SD NTSC tv. I've built a pc with the correct video card ATI 6570 (emu crt driver). Used the keystone vga to component adapter and it still doesnt sync properly. I ordered the Ultimate scart adapter, planning on using that with a scart to component adapter and see what happens. Its all going to a Sony trinitron CRT. This is for a mame build
Another really informative video! We picked up the Framemeister based on the RGB101 video and I have been especially happy with the product. Still need to make some time to get the best output out of each individual system.
Unless you guys know of a place that has the specifics for each individual system? Ideal cord (I buy all of mine from retro_console_accessories), ideal settings on Framemeister, ideal mods and parts for consoles that may need them.
I'm having a particularly hard time with the Dreamcast (official VGA cord to component adapter to D5) and original Xbox (using component to D5 cord).
[Try4ce] Check the XRGB wiki on junkerhq.net/xrgb for some settings ideas. In the hopefully near future, we're going to begin putting out some shorter videos that break down all of the considerations and options for hooking up specific consoles. I'd also like to do a short video on Framemeister settings. I don't think Coury has yet gotten the cables he needs for the best Xbox and Dreamcast setups, but maybe he can chime in, as he is much more familiar with those systems than I am.
Great
Try4ce, could you address a bit further something that was mildly touched in the video? Maybe it's an important point for a lot of us.
For those of us with early N64 RGB mod (THS7413 chip), you can't get CSYNC out of it, so as far as I understand I'm stuck with Sync on Composite.
Let's assume for now I can't have CSYNC cables or anything like that. Am I right to assume artifacts will always be expect on N64 (like in your Zelda SNES footage?)
In saying all this in hypothetical therms, as I don't have my modded N64 yet (but where I live, there's only the THS7413 option available and I'm planing to give it a try). But if there's gonna be artifacts 100% for sure, then this is a huge bummer.
So, if not using CSYNC, are those artifacts always expected on N64?
BTW, I LOVE your channel. I even cried once (literally) with your intro's music, because somehow it reminds me of my mom, who passed away a couple of months ago.
I really love your channel. Thanks a lot for all the amazing info you guys are putting out there for all of us!
[Try4ce] I'm not up to date on the newest N64 RGB... CSYNC is possible, but I've heard it's easier to not use it. But you shouldn't worry. If you use sync-on-luma, you should see no noise at all. If you have cables with superior shielding, like the coaxial upgrade at Retro-Access, then even sync-on-composite should have no noise. But keep in mind that the N64 often shows quite a bit of dithering, but don't mistake that for noise.
11:16 Sethbling has that somg at the end of his videos
I have an CRT with RGB in, but’s it’s scart connection. What do I use to to connect PS2 RGB RCA cables to the scart port? I see there’s a lot of products that converts it in the opposite direction, but can’t find what I need.
My plan is to play TimeCrisis with RGB on PS2 with the GunCon.
Buy a AV breakout adapter. That will let you pull composite for your lightgun while still using RGB for your CRT.
looks like i need to watch this video multiple times i already learn't what component is (as in parts of the signal is going through different components of the cable or pins) and finally found out what's the difference between the 3 and 5 cable component cable thinks to wikipedia, also another name for ypbpr or component is yipper cable and i think the words of what scart means is french at least i learn't what jp-21 is the first time watching the video
[Try4ce] I was a little bit worried that it might be confusing if we didn't include the audio cables in the YPbPr images, but since this was more about video than audio, we left them out of the pictures.
It was thanks to Artemio Urbina that we included JP-21... we asked him for feedback on the script, and we got some advice about it. It was an oversight because we've never dealt with JP-21 personally, due to SCART being recommended to us when we first began our RGB journey.
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Awesome video! thanks It explains a lot. I'm so lucky to have been born in europe and having grown up on RGB. Especialy with the mega drive where the 50/60hz switch is real easy. I do think your are missing Sync-on-green standard :)
[Try4ce] That's true, but we don't have any experience with sync on green. I haven't come across any gaming applications for it yet. It seems to me that a large majority of the information out there on RGB is European in origin... this is all pretty unfamiliar to most people in North America, sadly!
You are right, sync on green wasn't mentioned. However there was a reason for that, in RGB you rarely deal with it. As a matter of fact, the only instance I know about is the PS2 with the VGA out. And even in that case, the PS2 is capable of regular sync when using an RGB cable.
My PVM als has the option sync on green. The only thing I was able to get to work with that was my Amstrad GX4000. I also now that Next computers use Sync-on-Green
***** Nice to know about that, the only one I've used in mine is the PS2. Good thing is that Extrom interfaces can convert between sync types
I've recently gone down the RGB rabbit hole and this video helped clear up a lot of the confusion I had regarding sync types. One thing I'm not sure of is, in this day and age of high quality shielded SCART cables and upscalers like the RetroTINK 5x, does sync type really effect quality in a discernable way? I could see sync-on-composite causing artifacts with a lot of signals going down one cable, but would there be much difference between sync-on-luma and CSYNC?
[Try4ce] There has never really been a tangible difference between Sync-on-luma and CSYNC. Even sync-on-composite is the same quality as long as the cables are well shielded. On PVMs or other CRTs, noise is not very noticable, but the higher quality the upscaler, the more you want to be sure you're using good cables with minimal noise. They can show a lot of detail, both the good and bad! But the low pass filter settings can help.
@@mylifeingaming Wow, wasn't expecting to get a response from one of the hosts, that's dedication! Thanks for the feedback, I've ordered a RetroAccess sync on luma for my SNES and N64 since it seems to be the most straightforward for my planned N64 RGB mod. I'm glad I won't have to worry about sacrificing picture quality.
Great video, thank you both! Is there a way to tell what type of sync a cable is set up for? I have a modded PAL mega drive that is dropping the sync in 60hz mode only. I'm hoping this means my RGB cable is sync over composite and that a composite sync cable will fix the issue.
+Phill Coverley [Try4ce] Someone who knows what it should look like inside would know, but that's not me! I did run across one cable that wasn't what it was supposed to be, and I figured it out by process of elimination.
3:34, does that mean i could use my standard composite switch box for yPbPr (and hook up the audio separately)?
Hello,I just purchased a sony pvm 1354Q and I'm curious what do I need to play my snes in rgb in the best possible picture? A male and female scart connector one from my snes and another one to the pvm? Needs some advice please thank you
I may be all out of whack here but I think luma may be called Y because brightness/luma is represented by the Y axis in LAB color.
Is Try's Playstation 2 cable EuroSCART or JP21?
Also, do you find Luma Sync to be better than Sync on Composite? I want to get a PS2 cable from retrogamingcable. co. uk, and they offer Sync on Composite, Luma Sync, and Csync for their PS2 cables.
ShogunGin0 [Try4ce] All of my cables are SCART, I don't have JP21 in my setup at all. Sync-on-luma is better than sync-on-composite, for sure. In fact, I've had a hard time telling the difference with luma vs. CSYNC. Now that I have a luma cable for my N64, I don't really regret that CSYNC wasn't wired up in my mod. For PS2, go for luma. Multiple sources have told us that Playstation systems do not output CSYNC, so I'm not sure why it appears as an option on that website.
***** I believe it shows up as an option because those cables have a built in sync stripper?
Your videos have extremely high production quality; the motion graphics and other custom stills really help with understanding the information.. Are you using After Effects for your motion graphics, or something else?
[Try4ce] Certain elements are created and rendered with alpha transparency in After Effects (plus the animated backgrounds and such), but for the most part, it's ultimately built and animated in Adobe Premiere itself. This video was 20 video tracks high due to how many elements had to be manipulated separately on some of the diagrams.
Men after my own heart. :-) Keep up the good work.
Woah... slow down... :P
OK... I'm going to have to watch this one a few more times... I can't seem to process all of this information AND imagine the editors timeline for the video (Always try to imagine how something was cut together) at the same time :)
Cracking video mind :)
Sk4zZi0uS Its a very dense subject - we went into this video knowing that people into the subject would likely have to watch it a couple of times. We streamlined and cut down a ton even, believe it or not.
Also! If you're into editors timelines and stuff, you might enjoy our tumblr. We post up screenshots of a majority of our timelines and some little facts about the making of the episodes (most of the time). You can check em out here:
mligaming.tumblr.com/
Look for the timeline for this video in a couple of days!
[Try4ce] I don't doubt that it'll take a few views to digest! As for the timeline, we'll post it to our Tumblr soon. It's ridiculous! It's 20 video tracks high because so many of the visual and text elements had to be manipulated separately. Still, the diagrams were actually the most fun part of the video to make!
I was wondering if any of you have tried using the elgato Game Capture HD. The website lists that the device is capable of capturing 240p video, and I was wondering how well it worked, though both its HDMI passthrough and recording footage.
+Ryan Good [Try4ce] We would definitely like to try the Elgato, as well as a variety of other HD capture cards than the AVerMedia U3 ExtremeCap that we have now. If we ever have the chance to do so, we'll definitely make a video about it.