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@@slcpunk2740 I say dealers choice on that one. But in my eyes if you're going to try and low ball me off the rip then you're probably not the type of person I want to do buiness with anyway. It gives me a sense of mistrust and the last thing I want to worry about in any situation is if I will ever get paid or not.
Adam, seriously, that was Mr. Miyagi level advice. I learned it a long time ago the hard way (same as you did) but for others it is invaluable. Shirts: For me, it's almost all The Mountain (American made, great quality, and greater art) or stuff that has caught my eye on FB or Twitter such as the Lee Ho Fooks - Soho, Est 1978 (those who know, know) shirt I have on today.
I have a stock answer for anyone who asks me to do something for exposure: "So, how did you hear about me?" When they answer, I say, "well, then I guess I don't need the exposure do I?"
What a genius answer; bet it shuts them up every time! It's so infuriating when "influencers" take if for granted everyone wants to give them free stuff for "exposure" which is always a joke.
@@Spudwellington I've never moved in circles that big tbh : -) Back in the day, a I used to help out a mate of mine who used to organise music events, and pretty much everyone you met was a blagger, and wanted something for free, often using 'it will be good exposure' as if working for free is better than working and getting paid.
I don't know if I consciously was aware of this, but it rings true like I sort of knew it. It makes sense. Why would you expect a client's behavior to suddenly change once you've won the job?
@@viscountalpha I mean... if you're working for someone and they don't give you so much as a six-pack of Your Favorite Tasty Beverage for taking the good time and trouble to do it for them, you should just bail. Never do business with idiots who think the arts are so worthless, they're not even worth paying for. If they want you to work for free, don't work for them at all.
From my meager experience, there's three things to consider when accepting to work on a project : -Is there a financial gain ? -Is it something that would bring you happiness and/or personnal satisfaction ? -Is it really helping you progress in your creative carreer ? You need to have at least two of those If not, it's not going to be worth it
The rule I've heard from musicians is to look at these three things, and take the gig if two are there: 1. Money 2. Great art 3. Good people So, if the people are difficult to work with, but they pay well and the gig is artistically fulfilling, take the gig. If it's just some cookie-cutter gig like a wedding band, but it pays well and the rest of the band are great people, take the gig. If it's a gig for no money, but you're making great art and you'll get to have a good time with friends, take the gig.
Any client who is prominent enough to actually give you "Great Exposure" can also afford to just pay you. The exposure is free to them either way. If they can't pay you, they aren't prominent and can't actually give you great exposure. As Adam said, you can still do jobs for less or no money, but do it because you want to do the job, not because you think it'll be good for your personal brand. Would you get good exposure working on the next big Disney Movie? Sure. But they can definitely also afford to pay you." If someone small wants you to work for them, and you just want a line item on your resume/portfolio, then that's ok. Understand that it's not actually going to make you famous, but you can then absolutely say "professional XYZ who worked on ". And maybe that's enough to get your foot in the next door.
*To add to this* Imagine Leica coming up to you and saying "We'd like you to take photos of our $10,000 cameras for advertisements however we, Leica a luxury company worth hundreds of millions of dollar have no money to pay you" It doesn't happen. The only companies looking for exposure have no brand name and are hoping you'd create it for them
More than a decade ago I took a gig writing and researching for a major art Museum. The pay was terrible and there were no benefits, but I got to work with great people and great art, establish myself with an important museum, and learn a lot. It got me a string of further jobs, the opportunities to do talks all over the country (for other museums), and it got my name on the spine of a book for the first time, a book from one of the most famous institutions in the world. I’m still getting NPR interviews and calls from scholars on the strength of that book and show. So it really did prove to be worth it. But I couldn’t have anticipated all that at the time - it was the recession of 2008 and I just really needed a gig. The offer came from a friend. And it was fun. Sounds like that fulfilled what Adam would ask.
Exposure doesn’t pay the bills. As a business owner I had to learn this the hard way. I whole heartedly agree with your advise on how a client is during the “bidding” process is how they are the whole job.
'Exposure' was once known as advertising. If you think about the discount you give for 'Exposure' as the price you are paying for advertising it's a lot easier. Adam's comments about discounts for friends or for projects you just what to be a part of are super important too. Taking an 80% cut in your rate for Ryan Reynolds (or who ever your equivalent is) when you do tandem sky dives and having Ryan the chance to spend an afternoon with him and have him strapped to your chest... I mean now you're discount is just paying for my/your cool story. That's not a bad reason, just remember that not all paid experiences work out as expected. Lastly, if someone is willing to pay you for something you something you were going to do already (in the way you want, in the time you want) awesome! Just don't forget if its work for hire you loose copyrights! Nothing like doing something you were going to do that would cost you $1000 and watching it make someone else $100,000.
@@ohnonomorenames advertising is different from doing something for a loss for "exposure"... If you build something like that then that person will give your name out saying that guy is cheap you should use him... Then you are always working for nothing and not getting good clients. I learned that charging twice as much but getting a quarter the business is better. The customer that those people send you are expecting you to charge and tend to respect you
The bidding process is when you learn about the customer and they learn from you. You want them to like you and you need to know if they will be difficult later on... You learn to read people when you are selling. It's a skill and if you are good at it then you end up charging for that free thing some down the line... Because you knew that person was going to try that and you will let them "succeed". Or you priced in that discount that they will bargain for later to let them feel like they won.
@@answeris4217 I think we actually agree. If you have an opportunity to do something that will raise your brand and make people want to pay more for your services. That is advertising. If you start giving away your service and driving your value down, that's not advertising. That is doubling down on stupid.
Exposure doesn't pay the bills... but thinking long term it could. It's how to figure out if it's true exposure or if you're taken advantage off. Same thing with taking a lower paid job to do the grunt work and working yourself up... figuring out if that low paid job actually has perspective for the future is the crux. Only a few are lucky enough to fall into money straight from the get go.
I've been doing similar with my 3D print designs for quadcopters I put out freely. A year ago I created a design that holds a radio receiver in a way which nobody had seen before and many people now use. But I got asked about versions for other receivers and I've ended up making holders for 7 other receivers that I don't use, just because I've been enjoying designing them and all the positive feedback from drone pilots that use my designs.
@@larrybud Just a hobby, I don't have a job, disability benefits because of my Aspergers keeps the roof over my head. 3D print designing is the latest hobby, which has been a lifesaver during the past 2 years of my long covid fatigue issues; when I can barely walk I usually still have enough energy to sit and operate a keyboard+mouse. I feel it's only right I give all my print designs away free because so much has been given to me in my life.
"If you don't feel good about the interaction up till now, it's not getting any better" This is the best advice for anyone trying to get into arts/entertainment. When you're young and vulnerable there's a tendency to want to say yes to everything, but there are so many dubious jobs that will go nowhere and get you nothing. If you don't know the client personally, pay or get paid, end of story.
The only problem with this is that there are a ton of people out there who don't have money but they do have skills and if those people teamed up they could make money. I'm an artist and I've been looking for a coder who would work for free who was willing to team up on a video game. Once the game was 80% done we could do a crowd funding and get paid. But getting someone to put in the time and take the risk is almost impossible. Everyone understandably wants to get paid up front, but that limits what could be more lucrative down the road.
It'll probably even get worse...when the client wants something from you that you have yet to agree to, you're in the drivers seat. Once they have you under contract, they will dangle it in front of you saying you agreed and be a total pain.
@@PacMonster0 If that's the case, then explain all these people in the comments working for exposure. Clearly people are willing to put time into something that is risky. To me, you'll get paid what you would have gotten paid doing this professionally but at the end, is a much more appealing risk than "you'l get exposure". That's the thing. I want to pay people, and I want to pay people what they are worth. I'm not some independently wealthy person. What I am is an artist who has a ton of ideas. A collaboration, or division of labor if you want to look at it that way, would benefit everyone. I'd be working for free too. Most of my concepts already have a ton of time in them, and I haven't gotten paid a dime. Because I'm not already wealthy, the only way I know how to make the thing to make money is to find people willing to collaborate. These people looking for exposure need to contact me and I'll get them their money. I have million dollar ideas collecting dust. I'll pull a Thanos and "do it myself" if I have to, but it sure would be nice to work on something with some passionate people.
@@PacMonster0 I'm curious. Why is your solution the only realistic one? How do you know how people think? Clearly people are willing to take a gamble that a risk to work for someone for exposure will pay off. Yes, they regret when it doesn't work. I understand that better than most, which is why I understand what it feels like when potential is wasted. Also, it's not just ideas in my head, and even if it is, who cares? I have the skills to back up those ideas. It's like being a professional skateboarder. Would the skating ability be all in my head? Sure I suppose so until I'm doing a 360 in the air right? Stop being so minimizing and conformity seeking and learn to listen to people a bit more.
@@PacMonster0 Yeah. It's the same thing everyone says. Everyone says I shouldn't do whatever it is I'm doing and then offers a "You should do X instead" piece of advice. It's interesting given how many times I've had this type of conversation how no one says "Actually I know a guy", or "I'm looking for the same thing you are, let's team up!". The reason I have this type of conversation is in part to see how the responses people give line up to earlier ones, and you've basically hit the pattern spot on. You're right. It's not easy. If I were rich, it'd be easy. I'd just quote a figure and people would either accept or they wouldn't. Building something from nothing is infinitely more difficult than handing out cash. You have to find passionate people, who are also skilled enough to do the job, who can communicate effectively, and are risk takers willing to sacrifice today for tomorrow, and that doesn't exist. No one wants to give up $20 today for $200 a week from now. Everything has to be a "sure thing" before anyone will get invested. Honestly, it sucks. How much creativity and productivity is going to waste right now because of it? There's no way to measure it.
THIS was the video I have needed to see for a long time. I have been trying to get paid in exposure for far too long. I still find it hard to price myself accordingly... I feel that I am really good at making the things I make, but people don't understand it takes hours of time... even though the process is somewhat simple. Practice has meant that I'm good at it... but I can't remember being happy with a purse at the end of a job because of the promise of exposure. Thanks for the video, now I go and turn in to a hard ass who is gonna get paid accordingly
@@Nat1videos I see. The materials for that kind of stuff is expensive. I'm not sure how you can turn making terrain into something that makes money unless you did it for a mini company or something, or you could find some gamers who want really good looking tables to play on and don't want to build them. Maybe you should put together a portfolio of the stuff you do. Be super professional about it, etc. Do you have a place online anyone can look at your work?
@@cbalan777 yeah that’s what I do. I do commissions for table builds etc .. in terms of a place to see my work I make tutorials of the process here on my RUclips channel. I get asked to do commissions all the time because of the videos I make... but getting the right price is the hard part. Gladly some work is coming in, I’m currently working on a big project for Bethesda / Modiphius games building a Skyrim gamin table. It’s going well ! It’s an exposure build though 😅
I’m not a maker, but I can speak to the business development / new client negotiation piece, and I 100% agree with what you say about what to pay attention to in early conversations. I’ve always said, “Clients that start easy, don’t always stay easy, but ones that start out as jerks never become easy.” In any business, it’s critically important to weed out bad clients as quickly as possible and while it may not always feel like it, there are plenty of potential clients out there that are “easy” and are seeking to find a true partner/ collaborator. It’s those clients that I will lower my price for. Love you passing on such great advice!
With over thirty years of self-employment, I have come to have similar takeaways on this topic, including work clothes :). I began as a cabinetmaker & carpenter in my late teens, while dreaming of becoming a filmmaker. Then in my early thirties I transitioned to film & video production. It's very interesting that no matter what industry you work for there's always someone trying to sell you on working for free (or at a reduced rate) in exchange for exposure. I know that I have done jobs for free (or at a reduced rate) that I am proud of, and there are some I regret doing. Certainly I've done work at a reduced pay in order to pay the bills. I would say that Adam's advice is solid, especially if you are starting out. I would add, know your worth, stay flexible, be patient with your growth, mind your finances, and enjoy. Finally, in the words of one of my mentors, when something is done for free it's value may be perceived as zero - at least get an honorarium.
“Is how they are going to be all throughout the job” Blessed to rely on a metalworking skill set between pandemic layoffs, I’ve found their tends to be two types of customers: Ones that drop the project off, expecting it done yesterday, micromanaging every aspect of the build, and even with full up front communication of the unforeseen, they are still shocked by the final price. OR Those that need a project completed are grateful for your time and honesty. They also typically are more trustworthy regarding decision making based on your past experience and know how. These types are great investments to network with for future endeavors as usually the finances aren’t even an issue, for either side of the transaction.
I got my first meeting with a major casino for long term photography gig. The longer the meeting went, the more they revealed. Turns out they were getting award plaques and photos, mounted and delivered for less than the cost of materials. I finally contacted the previous photographer and he was using his 6 kids has slave labor and production cost were nearly zero. But he was still losing money and finally figured it out after few years a quit. This was the guy I had to replace! I gave them an honest quote and never heard a thing again.
I'll throw my lesson out there. I took a job from the owner of my day job... I was kinda stuck.. I needed the money and he was my boss. Anyway.. I did the sculpture and he told me not to tell anyone what I was working on. He drove me crazy for weeks on the sculpt, I did everything he wanted and later when I saw the bronze casting he had put his initials on the base and had told everyone that he sculpted it. And then later I found out that he was trying to sell it as a life size bronze project for another local business... So yeah that happened.. 😒 So if someone wants you to work on the downlow... Then someone else is going to take the credit for the work you do.
That’s huge in the Custom car industry as well. Regarding who is doing the build work vs cutting the checks, either way someone likes to steal the credit down the road
Timing for this video was absolutely perfect and I told the other party to go packing. Thank you for streamlining and simplifying the thought process. Adam, you're the mentor I never knew I needed lol. Very grateful for the wisdom you share
Having been asked the same question a few times in my career, my answer is “If you are early in your career and someone asks you to work for free or cheap, respectfully decline. The only ‘exposure’ you are likely to get is that you are someone who will work for free or cheap. Later in your career, you’ll know when it’s okay to say yes. “
That seems opposite. Someone without much portfolio needs to have something to show prospects and can benefit from doing anything (which goes to his comment about creative control, if you’re just doing the grunt work it only showcases someone else’s ideas). Once established then these aren’t needed. Unless maybe it really is better exposure.
Learned it the hard way... I was Project coordinator/team lead and my paycheck was less than half of the rest of the team members' pay each. Once the team figures that out it can not just screw up the productivity, things can go south really quick! It was supposed to be a "compromise" for work experience. Supposed to... NEVER settle for less. It doesn't matter what age and experience you are at.
This hit home like crazy! I'm a dog trainer. I trained obedience and scent detection and service dogs. I trained thousands of dogs, and most of the people that contact me I work with. But every now and then there are people that just set me off. Like a little alarm going off that tells me I should watch out for something. And that's because it exactly what you talk about! If they sound weird in the first 5 minutes of the phone call or demanding or micromanaging, they're going to be that way to the whole project. Weather is 4 weeks of training their puppy or six months of training a service dog. You are going to have to deal with them. Great Clip, Adam!
Desmond once told me the story of how he started his business that he operated until he died. He was working with chemicals in a heat treating shop and wanted out. He wanted to start a neon shop. So he saved and saved and eventually bought all the pieces he needed to build a humble little shop in his attic. He took some days off and drove around to sign shops offering to make glass for them. But they all said they didn’t need any contractors. So later, he went back and begged for work, “please, just give me the work you hate doing, the hard stuff”. In this way he got a few jobs here and there. Making all the hard stuff, Desmond’s skills got better and better. His reputation grew because his work was reliable and cheap. Eventually, he started getting easy jobs and was embarrassed at how much money he was making. I remember his customers started saying he needed to charge more. He never let poor quality leave his shop. He lived in a humble home all his life and paid his bills. When he told me stories about his business I was always fascinated. You see, he was doing it because he loved it. I tried to tell him that he could hire more people to bend glass and he could run the business. But he wasn’t interested. When his health failed, he sold to an employee. But the quality suffered terribly, the reputation ruined by someone who didn’t have such high standards. Now the business is gone, only in my memory. I met my wife there, she burned my coat, so I married her. My best friend worked there too. Desmond was a legend, mostly humble, always full of thought, living his neon dream. And he was known for losing money on a job to keep his good name. Ask any big sign shop in Chicago and they will remember Desmond. He was the best.
I recently heard a rebuff that made a lot of sense to me, "People can die from exposure.". It made me chuckle, and I don't do work for free - even for friends - anymore.
A friend of mine is a _fantastic_ landscape artist. Years ago she switched from doing it as a hobby and selling them at the flea market to selling commissions online, and early on made the mistake of doing a custom fantasy piece "for exposure". The vlogger and "influencer" (which is *not* a real job, FYI, and anyone who says otherwise is a *liar* (though I'm sure some trolls in the comments are going to try to say that it is)) said they'd have the piece on the wall during their videos. It was on the wall, all right: just off-camera where nobody could see it. My friend never made that mistake again. One of my high school art teachers actually had a fantastic deal set up with a local art gallery. Near the end of the school year she'd ask her students who were interested in art as a serious hobby or career and her students who were on the fence about it (she didn't bother with the ones who were only in the class for the mandatory extracurricular course credit) to each pick what we thought were our best two pieces, and she'd pick what she thought were our best two pieces (or next-best if we chose the same ones), and she'd have them all displayed in the gallery's "Young Local Artists" exposition that they held for a week every June. The students got _real, actual_ exposure in a real art gallery, the gallery got a charity tax write-off for doing an event with the school, it was win-win for everybody. [Edit: _Each student_ had four of their own pieces displayed, _not_ four pieces total for the entire class. Just making that clear.)
You don’t want to establish yourself as cheap. One thing you can do is give explicit discounts. This way your normal price is clear and the exceptional character of the deal also is.
I’m a graphic designer. Out of college, I took a position with a company that offered significantly less than requested for salary, (and really quite a bit less than I would have gotten anywhere else that was half decent). I knew at the time that they were taking advantage of the fact I was fresh out of school and not as experienced as someone who’d been in the field for a couple decades, but I took the job because I desperately needed it. What I wish I’d known at the time though, was that a company like that can be quite resistant to actually helping you advance and progress yourself in your career. I left after a few years because they kept expanding the scope of my position at the company, wouldn’t give me a raise to account for that, and I realized my place in the company would never change.
I’m trying to start out as a photographer. I was invited to shoot a burlesque show for little/no pay, and I accepted because it was so far out of my comfort zone that I couldn’t guarantee a usable final product for them. I’m used to stationary subjects with lighting I control, and burlesque is the exact opposite. It went really well, I learned a lot, and I feel confident that I could charge for the next one.
@@Berkeloid0 I definitely saw it that way too. Not only did I gain a ton of experience quickly, it’s a foot in the door with a tight-knit community. Although it was more of a baptism by fire… there were 28 performers who were only on stage for 3 minutes each, no time to worry about whether I got the shot or not!
My business is in a very different field, but I have two rates I use. One is standard, the other is if you try to lowball me or are generally just a pain in my ass. I don’t give deals. I do excellent work and I charge accordingly. I’m far from the cheapest around, and people love me and my work. To be transparent, I have given customers breaks and have done work for free. But never if asked to give a discount. Those who have asked are never those who need a discount. I have one customer in particular that is always trying to get things cheaper. He’s living in a $1M+ house, driving a Tesla, his wife has a brand new Lexus, throws money around on all kinds of extravagant stuff, and wants to beat me down on price. Sorry, I’m not going without so you can live better than me. Never give ANYONE a deal that can afford your services! You deserve to live comfortably. Chances are, those asking for deals are a lot more comfortable than you and/or just want to take advantage of you.
Also one thing to consider when a "big client" ask you to do something for free or extremely low price, you might think it will get you a connection or a good stand with them, but usually they just assume you'll just keep giving them a discount every single time and the more you do it the more they will insist the next time. ALWAYS VALUE YOUR WORK
If the brief starts off with mission creep, quote 6 times what you normally would. Because if they still go for it, you are being compensated for the shitty time you're going to have. Chances are though, they'll go find some other schmuck.
Man that advice is true for any side hustle. If the client is worrisome in the first few minutes, that is all the indication you should need. Too many people dismiss that gut level appraisal. I am firm in the notion that you should believe it when a person SHOWES you who they are.
Excellent advice. Many people encounter customers that are trying to cut costs by cutting corners or pure exploitation. It’s never a good idea to take a long term client that consistently is below market. It must be said: be careful of customers who always talk about costs and money! Those who focus on costs without focusing on value or quality will slowly grind you down. Those who consistently cut corners to avoid spending money are a major red flag, and will leave you frustrated. Be certain that the business relationship values your input and lets you make recommendations or consults you for expert advice. You are the expert! If they don’t listen to you, it will never change. Ask yourself if the relationship is productive to your future and sense of value.
A good example of this is writing tech books, as they have such a short shelf life it’s hard to make good money on them. I got asked to write a book on my SME, when I calculated the hours, it was going to not be near what I make in my job, but the ability to say “I wrote the book on this subject” is huge exposure. (I don’t want more exposure, I get more work than I can handle already, so I didn’t take it).
I learned when running a home tech/networking business at barely 18 that the hardest and most important things to do is put a price on yourself and stand behind it. Take a job for what you feel is not a fair amount? You're gonna feel like crap about the whole thing. I left that world because I wasn't able to get paid enough to ever feel good about it.
Something I was taught from when I was a kid, and I've seen it marked true time, and time, and time again. NEVER WORK FOR FREE! Even for "Exposure", that is what a portfolio is for. That is your resume. Esp with how easy it is to promote your own work on the internet these days. Right after/along with that is, know your worth! Be brutally honest and objective with yourself and know your skill level. If it's not where you want it to be then put in the work to get better, but know your worth, and DO NOT undersell yourself or be afraid to ask the price. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the door swings any which way the money commands. I would even argue not even for charity as well. Get a receipt and use it on your taxes. I'm not saying charge them (them being the charity), but still get a reccord of the transaction. Goodwill doesn't buy your junk, but you sure as h3ll can get a receipt! DON'T EVER WORK FOR FREE!
I liked the idea of “if you are gonna work with someone for a period of time, the first impression is gonna be the entire impression” I can apply that to a lot of scenarios and it will be a great thing to think about for the future of who I work with.
Great reasoning and advice! Situations vary and they are seldom simple. There are basic rules for how to not get completely screwed, but anything beyond that can depend heavily on the situation.
There's definitely an instinct or sense that gets honed the longer you are in business that will help root out the sheisters (99%) from the real projects worth your time and materials for free or at cost.
Very helpful ! 5th year into general construction for my own business and I sure learn more from my interactions with customers than the projects themselves! Great content Adam ! 💯👍🏻
Spot on. It reminds in the trades of the customer or contractor promising future work /referrals if you give them cheap work just "this time". It's always just BS, they are never worth working for in my experience either, they are just using you for that job/project trying to get a deal.
"If you're doing a job for free, it should be fun as hell". As a photographer, I am familiar with some people wanting something for nothing. That said, several years ago, I got hooked up with a small online regional entertainment news website. They wanted someone to do concert photography. I got press passes into big concert venues to shoot major national touring acts and write a review of the show. I did it for three years and never got paid a dime (outside of a gift card at x-mas), and in fact lost money with gas and parking fees. But I would absolutely do it again. I love live music and shooting those concerts was one of my favorite experiences as a photographer and I got a killer portfolio out of it. Fun as hell.
I'm in my mid 30s and have already learned these lessons the hard way. Experience has taught me this advice. Unfortunately this video didn't exist when I was watching myth busters 15 years ago... good Video. Hope people listen
Seeing you in that room reminds me of that "Eternal Life" science special you did where you were trapped underground alone for like 400 years, that was a great special.
I've heard this as basic guidance: the gig should be fun or it should be paid. Also remember that paid gigs can also give "exposure", so ask yourself "does this underpaid gig give me exposure I couldn't get from a paid gig?"
If it's a company you really like and you think there will be more work from them - don't take the job at a loss because you are setting a precedent. They will always refer back to what they paid last time/the first time. These situations always remind of the Picasso bit which may or may not be true (paraphrased): A woman comes up to Picasso in a bar, hands him a napkin and asks him to scribble something on it adding that she would be happy to pay whatever he thought it was worth. Picasso scribbled and said "that will be $10,000." The woman was shocked and said "but you did that in 30 seconds"! Picasso replied "No, it has taken me 40 years to do that."
Outstanding video. I just shared this with my daughter. She finished a BA degree in Emerging Media from UCF SVAD and, recently, her Masters degree from FIEA in Game Design. She was getting some ridiculously lowballed offers with just that comment of "providing exposure"... At the end of the day, she needs to make the decision, but I just told her to keep looking... Anyway, thank you for commenting on this subject. Link shared!
"That's what friendship in your 20s is all about, it's about everyone getting together and pulling on each other's ropes for awhile." couldn't have said it better myself adam
The hardest part for me is knowing how much my work is actually worth...I see prices on etsy that blow my mind for what it is i'm looking at, and dont think I could ever charge that much. Feels like I shoot myself in the foot, but the alternative is feeling like I'm ripping someone off...not sure which is worse lol
Well, if you aren't covering your costs you are 100% getting screwed. Always cover your costs, more then that really, you should always be making a bit of profit
@@Stettafire I do mostly drawings and clay sculptures (have yet to figure out how to monetize my RC hobby), so material costs are pretty low, its the value of my time that I guess I have a hard time determining.
@@microbuilder For value of time, minimum wage and not a penny less is a good place to start, then you can increase from there as you get a better handle on what your time and effort is actually worth (hint: it's certainly much more than minimum wage).
That's hardest thing to remember. You're a skilled specialist worker. I'm an appliance technician, and the only fundamental difference between me, a mechanic, and an artist is materials and hazard risk. The best baseline is always 'how many hours will this take to do' and 'what are the material costs.' then increase that based on the fact that others CANT do that. It might be a skill anyone can learn with time and practice, but it's not a skill most people did learn or ever will. People tend to downplay thier own skills because it's easy to them, but it's only easy because of all the training and practice.
As a maker of music (musician), I can vouch for the "playing for exposure" scam. The only exposure you will get is exposing thousands of dollars of equipment to wear, damage and theft for free. Such a deal! Even if it makes sense to work cheap, at least cover expenses. Gasoline is four bucks a gallon.
That's really interesting. I've noticed even if I sell stuff on eBay, it's always the stuff that sells cheap that gives you the most problematic people to deal with.
@@Berkeloid0 - I had one boss who felt it was a waste of time to chase clients who only wanted the cheapest deal. In his experience, no price would be low enough, and they would always leave you as a supplier once they found a lower price. He emphasized higher mark-ups on premium products, along with excellent service. His client base was great to deal with. Picky, but you always had enough cash margin to do the job right.
I made a list of examples of people/companies/organisations in three categories. Free, Heavy Discounted and Small Discount. My closest friends, family, charities I liked were in the Free category. Charities I'm less interested in and wider friends were in Heavy Discounted. Friends of friends etc were in Small Discount. When a job comes along, I can compare it to my mental lists and decide where they fit in. This makes it easier for me.
I recently went down the rabbit hole of repairing broken electronics and reselling them and i am buying some items knowing i probably wont make a profit on it so i will have something to work or so that i can learn something.
As a freelance CG artist I've been offered jobs that paid in "experience" or differed payment. So one was for a movie. If the movie made money I would get paid. I've never taken one of these jobs. Now I have been willing to give a discount if it's a really big or ongoing job. One guy was only willing to pay like 75% of my regular rate but he has given me consistent projects for over a year now.
It can be worth it if you can shift the compensation from the vague promise of "Exposure" into concrete "Advertisement." Something beyond just putting your name in the credits, like displaying you or your logo prominently and directly calling out how to contact you for work. If they balk at that, walk away. That probably won't end up covering the full cost of the job, but it might let you give a discount on your work. Imagine how much you would pay them to advertise for you if you weren't involved in the project, and that will give you a good baseline for how much you can shave off your regular fee.
As an artist who does commissions, two dangerous things always come to mind when someone is asking me to do something for exposure AND they're indicating that they don't take no for an answer well, ie you tell them once that the price is too low and you can't take the job, and they continue trying to negotiate without raising their offer. The first thing is that if someone feels entitled to your time, your attention, your work, and your response to them criticizing and correcting you before they have given you a penny, what they will expect of you when they have paid will be worse, if they follow through on payment at all. The second is that in addition to their work expectations, anyone with this kind of attitude is someone I wouldn't expect to respect the contract. My commission briefs are very specific about thinks like commercial rights, copyright, deadlines, and the fact that they can't just ask me for infinite revisions. But if someone feels entitled and doesn't listen to me when I say no, I don't trust them to read the contract correctly and respect it. While getting it in writing does give me the ability to fight them legally, why accept a job that I already suspect would bring me extra legal trouble in disagreements with a confrontational client? It should feel like a collaboration from start to finish. There is no amount of hours and love and effort I can put into artwork to satisfy someone who I can just not find understanding with. And it is definitely not a task worth the piss-poor subpar pay that these kinds of "clients" usually offer, if they offer to pay at all. And remember, not everyone who dms you is a customer or client. That title is reserved for people who actually have paid you for something. Don't let people twist "you're being mean to your client for not doing what they want" when they have never bought a single good or service from you and you haven't signed a damn thing.
Musicians are also prone to this kind of offer and your advice is probably right for them too. To be honest if a prospective employer starts with the exposure claim it should set off alarm bells.
One piece of advice I’ve heard is this one. “If you sell yourself as cheap, your reputation will stay that way in regards to exposure” “you will be know as the ‘good cheap one’”
i worked for a while for a stop animation company and they were penny pinching from moment one, the final straw was when they found out i had a 3d printer and just assumed it was available for their use, they pretty much planned what my printer would be doing for the next 3 months, and thats when i told them to get lost followed by blocking them on every point of ingress, it felt good to walk away, i also have made loads of props for friends for free and enjoyed every step of it.
Adam’s advice reminds me of how I operated as a freelance musician. 3 factors to consider: are you getting paid enough? Are you having fun? Are you learning? 2/3 is a good gig. 1/3 is questionable. 0/3 don’t do it.
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Shouldn't you at least try a counter offer before just saying no? 🤔
@@slcpunk2740 I say dealers choice on that one. But in my eyes if you're going to try and low ball me off the rip then you're probably not the type of person I want to do buiness with anyway. It gives me a sense of mistrust and the last thing I want to worry about in any situation is if I will ever get paid or not.
Adam, seriously, that was Mr. Miyagi level advice. I learned it a long time ago the hard way (same as you did) but for others it is invaluable.
Shirts: For me, it's almost all The Mountain (American made, great quality, and greater art) or stuff that has caught my eye on FB or Twitter such as the Lee Ho Fooks - Soho, Est 1978 (those who know, know) shirt I have on today.
I have a stock answer for anyone who asks me to do something for exposure: "So, how did you hear about me?"
When they answer, I say, "well, then I guess I don't need the exposure do I?"
What a genius answer; bet it shuts them up every time! It's so infuriating when "influencers" take if for granted everyone wants to give them free stuff for "exposure" which is always a joke.
Totally agree with Snoozerpoo, it's a genius answer, it cuts straight to the point and tells them you're not interested in playing games.
I go the other way: "It'll be good exposure" and my usual answer: 'Really, because I've never heard of you guys.'
@@engineeredlifeform lol nice, only works if they arent disney or something
@@Spudwellington I've never moved in circles that big tbh : -) Back in the day, a I used to help out a mate of mine who used to organise music events, and pretty much everyone you met was a blagger, and wanted something for free, often using 'it will be good exposure' as if working for free is better than working and getting paid.
First impressions matter, Jamie's comment about the bidding process is spot on.
I don't know if I consciously was aware of this, but it rings true like I sort of knew it. It makes sense. Why would you expect a client's behavior to suddenly change once you've won the job?
Never forget, kids... "Exposure" is something you DIE FROM.
That's a good one... Shamelessly stealing that. 😋
If you're lucky, only get sick because if it.
putting this one in my back pocket for the next time i hear this! pure gold.
I say this often when people bring up exposure. And I still remind myself of this fact.
@@viscountalpha I mean... if you're working for someone and they don't give you so much as a six-pack of Your Favorite Tasty Beverage for taking the good time and trouble to do it for them, you should just bail.
Never do business with idiots who think the arts are so worthless, they're not even worth paying for. If they want you to work for free, don't work for them at all.
From my meager experience, there's three things to consider when accepting to work on a project :
-Is there a financial gain ?
-Is it something that would bring you happiness and/or personnal satisfaction ?
-Is it really helping you progress in your creative carreer ?
You need to have at least two of those
If not, it's not going to be worth it
Facts
This is a wonderful way to surmise it
Excellent summary
*and if #1 is high enough I'll look past you not having #2 or #3
The rule I've heard from musicians is to look at these three things, and take the gig if two are there:
1. Money
2. Great art
3. Good people
So, if the people are difficult to work with, but they pay well and the gig is artistically fulfilling, take the gig.
If it's just some cookie-cutter gig like a wedding band, but it pays well and the rest of the band are great people, take the gig.
If it's a gig for no money, but you're making great art and you'll get to have a good time with friends, take the gig.
Any client who is prominent enough to actually give you "Great Exposure" can also afford to just pay you. The exposure is free to them either way. If they can't pay you, they aren't prominent and can't actually give you great exposure.
As Adam said, you can still do jobs for less or no money, but do it because you want to do the job, not because you think it'll be good for your personal brand. Would you get good exposure working on the next big Disney Movie? Sure. But they can definitely also afford to pay you."
If someone small wants you to work for them, and you just want a line item on your resume/portfolio, then that's ok. Understand that it's not actually going to make you famous, but you can then absolutely say "professional XYZ who worked on ". And maybe that's enough to get your foot in the next door.
*To add to this* Imagine Leica coming up to you and saying "We'd like you to take photos of our $10,000 cameras for advertisements however we, Leica a luxury company worth hundreds of millions of dollar have no money to pay you"
It doesn't happen. The only companies looking for exposure have no brand name and are hoping you'd create it for them
Thanks Nate, that’s a good way to think about it. Appreciate your input.
Man, your videos are like a mentorship. Thanks for making yourself available to people.
More than a decade ago I took a gig writing and researching for a major art Museum. The pay was terrible and there were no benefits, but I got to work with great people and great art, establish myself with an important museum, and learn a lot. It got me a string of further jobs, the opportunities to do talks all over the country (for other museums), and it got my name on the spine of a book for the first time, a book from one of the most famous institutions in the world. I’m still getting NPR interviews and calls from scholars on the strength of that book and show. So it really did prove to be worth it. But I couldn’t have anticipated all that at the time - it was the recession of 2008 and I just really needed a gig. The offer came from a friend. And it was fun. Sounds like that fulfilled what Adam would ask.
Exposure doesn’t pay the bills. As a business owner I had to learn this the hard way. I whole heartedly agree with your advise on how a client is during the “bidding” process is how they are the whole job.
'Exposure' was once known as advertising. If you think about the discount you give for 'Exposure' as the price you are paying for advertising it's a lot easier. Adam's comments about discounts for friends or for projects you just what to be a part of are super important too. Taking an 80% cut in your rate for Ryan Reynolds (or who ever your equivalent is) when you do tandem sky dives and having Ryan the chance to spend an afternoon with him and have him strapped to your chest... I mean now you're discount is just paying for my/your cool story. That's not a bad reason, just remember that not all paid experiences work out as expected. Lastly, if someone is willing to pay you for something you something you were going to do already (in the way you want, in the time you want) awesome! Just don't forget if its work for hire you loose copyrights! Nothing like doing something you were going to do that would cost you $1000 and watching it make someone else $100,000.
@@ohnonomorenames advertising is different from doing something for a loss for "exposure"...
If you build something like that then that person will give your name out saying that guy is cheap you should use him...
Then you are always working for nothing and not getting good clients. I learned that charging twice as much but getting a quarter the business is better. The customer that those people send you are expecting you to charge and tend to respect you
The bidding process is when you learn about the customer and they learn from you. You want them to like you and you need to know if they will be difficult later on...
You learn to read people when you are selling. It's a skill and if you are good at it then you end up charging for that free thing some down the line... Because you knew that person was going to try that and you will let them "succeed". Or you priced in that discount that they will bargain for later to let them feel like they won.
@@answeris4217 I think we actually agree. If you have an opportunity to do something that will raise your brand and make people want to pay more for your services. That is advertising.
If you start giving away your service and driving your value down, that's not advertising. That is doubling down on stupid.
Exposure doesn't pay the bills... but thinking long term it could. It's how to figure out if it's true exposure or if you're taken advantage off. Same thing with taking a lower paid job to do the grunt work and working yourself up... figuring out if that low paid job actually has perspective for the future is the crux. Only a few are lucky enough to fall into money straight from the get go.
I've been doing similar with my 3D print designs for quadcopters I put out freely. A year ago I created a design that holds a radio receiver in a way which nobody had seen before and many people now use. But I got asked about versions for other receivers and I've ended up making holders for 7 other receivers that I don't use, just because I've been enjoying designing them and all the positive feedback from drone pilots that use my designs.
Do you do this for a living or a side gig?
@@larrybud Just a hobby, I don't have a job, disability benefits because of my Aspergers keeps the roof over my head. 3D print designing is the latest hobby, which has been a lifesaver during the past 2 years of my long covid fatigue issues; when I can barely walk I usually still have enough energy to sit and operate a keyboard+mouse.
I feel it's only right I give all my print designs away free because so much has been given to me in my life.
@@larrybud Seek out my Tic Tac Solder Dispenser if you want to see my designs.
"If you don't feel good about the interaction up till now, it's not getting any better" This is the best advice for anyone trying to get into arts/entertainment. When you're young and vulnerable there's a tendency to want to say yes to everything, but there are so many dubious jobs that will go nowhere and get you nothing. If you don't know the client personally, pay or get paid, end of story.
The only problem with this is that there are a ton of people out there who don't have money but they do have skills and if those people teamed up they could make money. I'm an artist and I've been looking for a coder who would work for free who was willing to team up on a video game. Once the game was 80% done we could do a crowd funding and get paid. But getting someone to put in the time and take the risk is almost impossible. Everyone understandably wants to get paid up front, but that limits what could be more lucrative down the road.
It'll probably even get worse...when the client wants something from you that you have yet to agree to, you're in the drivers seat. Once they have you under contract, they will dangle it in front of you saying you agreed and be a total pain.
@@PacMonster0 If that's the case, then explain all these people in the comments working for exposure. Clearly people are willing to put time into something that is risky. To me, you'll get paid what you would have gotten paid doing this professionally but at the end, is a much more appealing risk than "you'l get exposure". That's the thing. I want to pay people, and I want to pay people what they are worth. I'm not some independently wealthy person. What I am is an artist who has a ton of ideas. A collaboration, or division of labor if you want to look at it that way, would benefit everyone. I'd be working for free too. Most of my concepts already have a ton of time in them, and I haven't gotten paid a dime. Because I'm not already wealthy, the only way I know how to make the thing to make money is to find people willing to collaborate. These people looking for exposure need to contact me and I'll get them their money. I have million dollar ideas collecting dust. I'll pull a Thanos and "do it myself" if I have to, but it sure would be nice to work on something with some passionate people.
@@PacMonster0 I'm curious. Why is your solution the only realistic one? How do you know how people think? Clearly people are willing to take a gamble that a risk to work for someone for exposure will pay off. Yes, they regret when it doesn't work. I understand that better than most, which is why I understand what it feels like when potential is wasted.
Also, it's not just ideas in my head, and even if it is, who cares? I have the skills to back up those ideas. It's like being a professional skateboarder. Would the skating ability be all in my head? Sure I suppose so until I'm doing a 360 in the air right? Stop being so minimizing and conformity seeking and learn to listen to people a bit more.
@@PacMonster0 Yeah. It's the same thing everyone says. Everyone says I shouldn't do whatever it is I'm doing and then offers a "You should do X instead" piece of advice. It's interesting given how many times I've had this type of conversation how no one says "Actually I know a guy", or "I'm looking for the same thing you are, let's team up!". The reason I have this type of conversation is in part to see how the responses people give line up to earlier ones, and you've basically hit the pattern spot on.
You're right. It's not easy. If I were rich, it'd be easy. I'd just quote a figure and people would either accept or they wouldn't. Building something from nothing is infinitely more difficult than handing out cash. You have to find passionate people, who are also skilled enough to do the job, who can communicate effectively, and are risk takers willing to sacrifice today for tomorrow, and that doesn't exist. No one wants to give up $20 today for $200 a week from now. Everything has to be a "sure thing" before anyone will get invested. Honestly, it sucks. How much creativity and productivity is going to waste right now because of it? There's no way to measure it.
THIS was the video I have needed to see for a long time. I have been trying to get paid in exposure for far too long. I still find it hard to price myself accordingly... I feel that I am really good at making the things I make, but people don't understand it takes hours of time... even though the process is somewhat simple. Practice has meant that I'm good at it... but I can't remember being happy with a purse at the end of a job because of the promise of exposure. Thanks for the video, now I go and turn in to a hard ass who is gonna get paid accordingly
What kind of stuff do you make?
@@cbalan777 I build scenics and miniature terrain for wargaming tables ... also Dioramas. Anything small and fantasy world based :)
@@Nat1videos I see. The materials for that kind of stuff is expensive. I'm not sure how you can turn making terrain into something that makes money unless you did it for a mini company or something, or you could find some gamers who want really good looking tables to play on and don't want to build them. Maybe you should put together a portfolio of the stuff you do. Be super professional about it, etc.
Do you have a place online anyone can look at your work?
@@cbalan777 yeah that’s what I do. I do commissions for table builds etc .. in terms of a place to see my work I make tutorials of the process here on my RUclips channel. I get asked to do commissions all the time because of the videos I make... but getting the right price is the hard part. Gladly some work is coming in, I’m currently working on a big project for Bethesda / Modiphius games building a Skyrim gamin table. It’s going well ! It’s an exposure build though 😅
@@Nat1videos Even Bethesda can't pay you? Damn.
I’m not a maker, but I can speak to the business development / new client negotiation piece, and I 100% agree with what you say about what to pay attention to in early conversations. I’ve always said, “Clients that start easy, don’t always stay easy, but ones that start out as jerks never become easy.” In any business, it’s critically important to weed out bad clients as quickly as possible and while it may not always feel like it, there are plenty of potential clients out there that are “easy” and are seeking to find a true partner/ collaborator. It’s those clients that I will lower my price for.
Love you passing on such great advice!
With over thirty years of self-employment, I have come to have similar takeaways on this topic, including work clothes :). I began as a cabinetmaker & carpenter in my late teens, while dreaming of becoming a filmmaker. Then in my early thirties I transitioned to film & video production. It's very interesting that no matter what industry you work for there's always someone trying to sell you on working for free (or at a reduced rate) in exchange for exposure. I know that I have done jobs for free (or at a reduced rate) that I am proud of, and there are some I regret doing. Certainly I've done work at a reduced pay in order to pay the bills. I would say that Adam's advice is solid, especially if you are starting out. I would add, know your worth, stay flexible, be patient with your growth, mind your finances, and enjoy. Finally, in the words of one of my mentors, when something is done for free it's value may be perceived as zero - at least get an honorarium.
You are 100% correct. Best Advice I've heard in a long time. This is from a 66-year-old man who learned the hard way.
“Is how they are going to be all throughout the job”
Blessed to rely on a metalworking skill set between pandemic layoffs, I’ve found their tends to be two types of customers:
Ones that drop the project off, expecting it done yesterday, micromanaging every aspect of the build, and even with full up front communication of the unforeseen, they are still shocked by the final price.
OR
Those that need a project completed are grateful for your time and honesty. They also typically are more trustworthy regarding decision making based on your past experience and know how. These types are great investments to network with for future endeavors as usually the finances aren’t even an issue, for either side of the transaction.
I got my first meeting with a major casino for long term photography gig. The longer the meeting went, the more they revealed. Turns out they were getting award plaques and photos, mounted and delivered for less than the cost of materials. I finally contacted the previous photographer and he was using his 6 kids has slave labor and production cost were nearly zero. But he was still losing money and finally figured it out after few years a quit. This was the guy I had to replace! I gave them an honest quote and never heard a thing again.
I'll throw my lesson out there.
I took a job from the owner of my day job... I was kinda stuck..
I needed the money and he was my boss.
Anyway.. I did the sculpture and he told me not to tell anyone what I was working on.
He drove me crazy for weeks on the sculpt, I did everything he wanted and later when I saw the bronze casting he had put his initials on the base and had told everyone that he sculpted it.
And then later I found out that he was trying to sell it as a life size bronze project for another local business...
So yeah that happened.. 😒
So if someone wants you to work on the downlow... Then someone else is going to take the credit for the work you do.
That’s huge in the Custom car industry as well. Regarding who is doing the build work vs cutting the checks, either way someone likes to steal the credit down the road
That's terrible. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Timing for this video was absolutely perfect and I told the other party to go packing. Thank you for streamlining and simplifying the thought process. Adam, you're the mentor I never knew I needed lol. Very grateful for the wisdom you share
Having been asked the same question a few times in my career, my answer is “If you are early in your career and someone asks you to work for free or cheap, respectfully decline. The only ‘exposure’ you are likely to get is that you are someone who will work for free or cheap. Later in your career, you’ll know when it’s okay to say yes. “
That seems opposite. Someone without much portfolio needs to have something to show prospects and can benefit from doing anything (which goes to his comment about creative control, if you’re just doing the grunt work it only showcases someone else’s ideas). Once established then these aren’t needed. Unless maybe it really is better exposure.
Learned it the hard way... I was Project coordinator/team lead and my paycheck was less than half of the rest of the team members' pay each. Once the team figures that out it can not just screw up the productivity, things can go south really quick! It was supposed to be a "compromise" for work experience. Supposed to...
NEVER settle for less. It doesn't matter what age and experience you are at.
Doing your own projects for yourself and showing the world is good exposure.
This hit home like crazy! I'm a dog trainer. I trained obedience and scent detection and service dogs. I trained thousands of dogs, and most of the people that contact me I work with. But every now and then there are people that just set me off. Like a little alarm going off that tells me I should watch out for something. And that's because it exactly what you talk about! If they sound weird in the first 5 minutes of the phone call or demanding or micromanaging, they're going to be that way to the whole project. Weather is 4 weeks of training their puppy or six months of training a service dog. You are going to have to deal with them. Great Clip, Adam!
Desmond once told me the story of how he started his business that he operated until he died. He was working with chemicals in a heat treating shop and wanted out. He wanted to start a neon shop. So he saved and saved and eventually bought all the pieces he needed to build a humble little shop in his attic. He took some days off and drove around to sign shops offering to make glass for them. But they all said they didn’t need any contractors. So later, he went back and begged for work, “please, just give me the work you hate doing, the hard stuff”. In this way he got a few jobs here and there. Making all the hard stuff, Desmond’s skills got better and better. His reputation grew because his work was reliable and cheap. Eventually, he started getting easy jobs and was embarrassed at how much money he was making. I remember his customers started saying he needed to charge more. He never let poor quality leave his shop. He lived in a humble home all his life and paid his bills. When he told me stories about his business I was always fascinated. You see, he was doing it because he loved it. I tried to tell him that he could hire more people to bend glass and he could run the business. But he wasn’t interested. When his health failed, he sold to an employee. But the quality suffered terribly, the reputation ruined by someone who didn’t have such high standards. Now the business is gone, only in my memory. I met my wife there, she burned my coat, so I married her. My best friend worked there too. Desmond was a legend, mostly humble, always full of thought, living his neon dream. And he was known for losing money on a job to keep his good name. Ask any big sign shop in Chicago and they will remember Desmond. He was the best.
This is such good advice. I'm a folk musician. Most creative folks I know would benefit by watching this.
I recently heard a rebuff that made a lot of sense to me, "People can die from exposure.". It made me chuckle, and I don't do work for free - even for friends - anymore.
A friend of mine is a _fantastic_ landscape artist. Years ago she switched from doing it as a hobby and selling them at the flea market to selling commissions online, and early on made the mistake of doing a custom fantasy piece "for exposure". The vlogger and "influencer" (which is *not* a real job, FYI, and anyone who says otherwise is a *liar* (though I'm sure some trolls in the comments are going to try to say that it is)) said they'd have the piece on the wall during their videos. It was on the wall, all right: just off-camera where nobody could see it. My friend never made that mistake again.
One of my high school art teachers actually had a fantastic deal set up with a local art gallery. Near the end of the school year she'd ask her students who were interested in art as a serious hobby or career and her students who were on the fence about it (she didn't bother with the ones who were only in the class for the mandatory extracurricular course credit) to each pick what we thought were our best two pieces, and she'd pick what she thought were our best two pieces (or next-best if we chose the same ones), and she'd have them all displayed in the gallery's "Young Local Artists" exposition that they held for a week every June. The students got _real, actual_ exposure in a real art gallery, the gallery got a charity tax write-off for doing an event with the school, it was win-win for everybody.
[Edit: _Each student_ had four of their own pieces displayed, _not_ four pieces total for the entire class. Just making that clear.)
Those kinds of people make it difficult for those of us who are legitimate and trying to do team ups.
FYI a vlogger can be as real of a job if they're making money off of it. Just because they're a fake doesn't make the job less real.
@@djsomeguy Vloggers are fine. The issue is the "influencers".
@@arcticbanana66 Even influencer is a real job. One you might not like, but it's still a real job.
RUclips needs to promote this video. This is possibly the most profound advice you have ever given.
You don’t want to establish yourself as cheap. One thing you can do is give explicit discounts. This way your normal price is clear and the exceptional character of the deal also is.
This is brilliant, from start to finish. Sir, thank you. I'm going to use this high school students for years. Again, thank you.
I’m a graphic designer. Out of college, I took a position with a company that offered significantly less than requested for salary, (and really quite a bit less than I would have gotten anywhere else that was half decent). I knew at the time that they were taking advantage of the fact I was fresh out of school and not as experienced as someone who’d been in the field for a couple decades, but I took the job because I desperately needed it.
What I wish I’d known at the time though, was that a company like that can be quite resistant to actually helping you advance and progress yourself in your career. I left after a few years because they kept expanding the scope of my position at the company, wouldn’t give me a raise to account for that, and I realized my place in the company would never change.
Are you expecting to get paid as someone who was in the field for a couple of decades?
I’m trying to start out as a photographer. I was invited to shoot a burlesque show for little/no pay, and I accepted because it was so far out of my comfort zone that I couldn’t guarantee a usable final product for them. I’m used to stationary subjects with lighting I control, and burlesque is the exact opposite. It went really well, I learned a lot, and I feel confident that I could charge for the next one.
To me that sounds less like you did a free job, and more like you were given a free training course! Can't argue with that!
@@Berkeloid0 I definitely saw it that way too. Not only did I gain a ton of experience quickly, it’s a foot in the door with a tight-knit community. Although it was more of a baptism by fire… there were 28 performers who were only on stage for 3 minutes each, no time to worry about whether I got the shot or not!
@@eccod Nothing like getting thrown in the deep end to get you focused!
My business is in a very different field, but I have two rates I use. One is standard, the other is if you try to lowball me or are generally just a pain in my ass.
I don’t give deals. I do excellent work and I charge accordingly. I’m far from the cheapest around, and people love me and my work.
To be transparent, I have given customers breaks and have done work for free. But never if asked to give a discount. Those who have asked are never those who need a discount. I have one customer in particular that is always trying to get things cheaper. He’s living in a $1M+ house, driving a Tesla, his wife has a brand new Lexus, throws money around on all kinds of extravagant stuff, and wants to beat me down on price. Sorry, I’m not going without so you can live better than me.
Never give ANYONE a deal that can afford your services! You deserve to live comfortably. Chances are, those asking for deals are a lot more comfortable than you and/or just want to take advantage of you.
Also one thing to consider when a "big client" ask you to do something for free or extremely low price, you might think it will get you a connection or a good stand with them, but usually they just assume you'll just keep giving them a discount every single time and the more you do it the more they will insist the next time. ALWAYS VALUE YOUR WORK
It's so true. As someone once said to me, if you aren't getting paid, your work is worthless.
If the brief starts off with mission creep, quote 6 times what you normally would. Because if they still go for it, you are being compensated for the shitty time you're going to have. Chances are though, they'll go find some other schmuck.
Man that advice is true for any side hustle. If the client is worrisome in the first few minutes, that is all the indication you should need. Too many people dismiss that gut level appraisal. I am firm in the notion that you should believe it when a person SHOWES you who they are.
That was some of the best advice I ever heard. Thanks Adam. God bless bud.
Excellent advice. Many people encounter customers that are trying to cut costs by cutting corners or pure exploitation. It’s never a good idea to take a long term client that consistently is below market.
It must be said: be careful of customers who always talk about costs and money! Those who focus on costs without focusing on value or quality will slowly grind you down. Those who consistently cut corners to avoid spending money are a major red flag, and will leave you frustrated.
Be certain that the business relationship values your input and lets you make recommendations or consults you for expert advice. You are the expert! If they don’t listen to you, it will never change. Ask yourself if the relationship is productive to your future and sense of value.
You have no idea how you just helped me make a decision that I was not sure of. Thank you
THIS WAS ABSOLUTE GOLD
A good example of this is writing tech books, as they have such a short shelf life it’s hard to make good money on them. I got asked to write a book on my SME, when I calculated the hours, it was going to not be near what I make in my job, but the ability to say “I wrote the book on this subject” is huge exposure. (I don’t want more exposure, I get more work than I can handle already, so I didn’t take it).
Such a good response, and put into words the difference. I have been on both kinds of jobs dozens of times.
I do photography, video/audio, and graphic design. This is the absolute best way I’ve heard this told.
This is absolurly the best advice!
I learned when running a home tech/networking business at barely 18 that the hardest and most important things to do is put a price on yourself and stand behind it. Take a job for what you feel is not a fair amount? You're gonna feel like crap about the whole thing. I left that world because I wasn't able to get paid enough to ever feel good about it.
What a great question and an even better answer, thanks Adam!
This is such an important topic for creators. Love your perspective on this, it makes a lot of sense.
Good video, always interesting to hear from you, Adam
Best regards
Adam has totally nailed it...again. From a 40yr FX specialist veteran.
So true Mr.Adam, This is great advice for the young artists. I wish I could knew it in my early career.
Yes Adam yes! As a freelance designer I was nodding at the screen so hard I think I pulled something 😆
Good one!
I have quoted projects at a rather low price, because it was an interesting thing and an opportunity to learn/try a new skill.
Something I was taught from when I was a kid, and I've seen it marked true time, and time, and time again. NEVER WORK FOR FREE! Even for "Exposure", that is what a portfolio is for. That is your resume. Esp with how easy it is to promote your own work on the internet these days. Right after/along with that is, know your worth! Be brutally honest and objective with yourself and know your skill level. If it's not where you want it to be then put in the work to get better, but know your worth, and DO NOT undersell yourself or be afraid to ask the price. There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the door swings any which way the money commands.
I would even argue not even for charity as well. Get a receipt and use it on your taxes. I'm not saying charge them (them being the charity), but still get a reccord of the transaction. Goodwill doesn't buy your junk, but you sure as h3ll can get a receipt! DON'T EVER WORK FOR FREE!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on "free" jobs.
I liked the idea of “if you are gonna work with someone for a period of time, the first impression is gonna be the entire impression” I can apply that to a lot of scenarios and it will be a great thing to think about for the future of who I work with.
This is soooo applicable to so many types of contract work.
Great reasoning and advice! Situations vary and they are seldom simple. There are basic rules for how to not get completely screwed, but anything beyond that can depend heavily on the situation.
There's definitely an instinct or sense that gets honed the longer you are in business that will help root out the sheisters (99%) from the real projects worth your time and materials for free or at cost.
to think about the money I've spent on cable TV.....I got this for free. God bless you for doing this
this advice is gold,
He is just SO fascinating!
Very helpful !
5th year into general construction for my own business and I sure learn more from my interactions with customers than the projects themselves!
Great content Adam ! 💯👍🏻
Best perspective I have heard on this topic, I learned something.
I'm starting out right now as video editor and this helps a lot Adam. Thanks!
This was very very helpful! Thank you!
Spot on. It reminds in the trades of the customer or contractor promising future work /referrals if you give them cheap work just "this time". It's always just BS, they are never worth working for in my experience either, they are just using you for that job/project trying to get a deal.
"If you're doing a job for free, it should be fun as hell". As a photographer, I am familiar with some people wanting something for nothing. That said, several years ago, I got hooked up with a small online regional entertainment news website. They wanted someone to do concert photography. I got press passes into big concert venues to shoot major national touring acts and write a review of the show. I did it for three years and never got paid a dime (outside of a gift card at x-mas), and in fact lost money with gas and parking fees. But I would absolutely do it again. I love live music and shooting those concerts was one of my favorite experiences as a photographer and I got a killer portfolio out of it. Fun as hell.
I'm in my mid 30s and have already learned these lessons the hard way. Experience has taught me this advice. Unfortunately this video didn't exist when I was watching myth busters 15 years ago... good Video. Hope people listen
Seeing you in that room reminds me of that "Eternal Life" science special you did where you were trapped underground alone for like 400 years, that was a great special.
I've heard this as basic guidance: the gig should be fun or it should be paid.
Also remember that paid gigs can also give "exposure", so ask yourself "does this underpaid gig give me exposure I couldn't get from a paid gig?"
I always love the insightful answers, even if I never asked it
This is a great question and wise advice.
If it's a company you really like and you think there will be more work from them - don't take the job at a loss because you are setting a precedent. They will always refer back to what they paid last time/the first time. These situations always remind of the Picasso bit which may or may not be true (paraphrased): A woman comes up to Picasso in a bar, hands him a napkin and asks him to scribble something on it adding that she would be happy to pay whatever he thought it was worth. Picasso scribbled and said "that will be $10,000." The woman was shocked and said "but you did that in 30 seconds"! Picasso replied "No, it has taken me 40 years to do that."
Outstanding video. I just shared this with my daughter. She finished a BA degree in Emerging Media from UCF SVAD and, recently, her Masters degree from FIEA in Game Design. She was getting some ridiculously lowballed offers with just that comment of "providing exposure"... At the end of the day, she needs to make the decision, but I just told her to keep looking... Anyway, thank you for commenting on this subject. Link shared!
"That's what friendship in your 20s is all about, it's about everyone getting together and pulling on each other's ropes for awhile."
couldn't have said it better myself adam
So helpful. Thank you Adam.
LOVE this video - wished I'd heard this 20 years ago!!!
The hardest part for me is knowing how much my work is actually worth...I see prices on etsy that blow my mind for what it is i'm looking at, and dont think I could ever charge that much. Feels like I shoot myself in the foot, but the alternative is feeling like I'm ripping someone off...not sure which is worse lol
Well, if you aren't covering your costs you are 100% getting screwed. Always cover your costs, more then that really, you should always be making a bit of profit
@@Stettafire I do mostly drawings and clay sculptures (have yet to figure out how to monetize my RC hobby), so material costs are pretty low, its the value of my time that I guess I have a hard time determining.
@@microbuilder For value of time, minimum wage and not a penny less is a good place to start, then you can increase from there as you get a better handle on what your time and effort is actually worth (hint: it's certainly much more than minimum wage).
That's hardest thing to remember. You're a skilled specialist worker. I'm an appliance technician, and the only fundamental difference between me, a mechanic, and an artist is materials and hazard risk. The best baseline is always 'how many hours will this take to do' and 'what are the material costs.' then increase that based on the fact that others CANT do that. It might be a skill anyone can learn with time and practice, but it's not a skill most people did learn or ever will. People tend to downplay thier own skills because it's easy to them, but it's only easy because of all the training and practice.
Good tips, thanks folks!
As a maker of music (musician), I can vouch for the "playing for exposure" scam. The only exposure you will get is exposing thousands of dollars of equipment to wear, damage and theft for free. Such a deal!
Even if it makes sense to work cheap, at least cover expenses. Gasoline is four bucks a gallon.
Brilliant tips
Adam is right. 👍
My experience with clients can be summarized as "The less they pay me, the worse they treat me". Every time.
That's really interesting. I've noticed even if I sell stuff on eBay, it's always the stuff that sells cheap that gives you the most problematic people to deal with.
@@Berkeloid0 - I had one boss who felt it was a waste of time to chase clients who only wanted the cheapest deal. In his experience, no price would be low enough, and they would always leave you as a supplier once they found a lower price. He emphasized higher mark-ups on premium products, along with excellent service. His client base was great to deal with. Picky, but you always had enough cash margin to do the job right.
Love the channel and videos
I made a list of examples of people/companies/organisations in three categories. Free, Heavy Discounted and Small Discount. My closest friends, family, charities I liked were in the Free category. Charities I'm less interested in and wider friends were in Heavy Discounted. Friends of friends etc were in Small Discount. When a job comes along, I can compare it to my mental lists and decide where they fit in. This makes it easier for me.
Very helpful!
I recently went down the rabbit hole of repairing broken electronics and reselling them and i am buying some items knowing i probably wont make a profit on it so i will have something to work or so that i can learn something.
Thank you, this really helped
As a freelance CG artist I've been offered jobs that paid in "experience" or differed payment. So one was for a movie. If the movie made money I would get paid. I've never taken one of these jobs. Now I have been willing to give a discount if it's a really big or ongoing job. One guy was only willing to pay like 75% of my regular rate but he has given me consistent projects for over a year now.
Great advice! I'd also say consider taking a loss if you can learn a lot and the client is not a jerk. Otherwise, life is too short.
It can be worth it if you can shift the compensation from the vague promise of "Exposure" into concrete "Advertisement." Something beyond just putting your name in the credits, like displaying you or your logo prominently and directly calling out how to contact you for work. If they balk at that, walk away.
That probably won't end up covering the full cost of the job, but it might let you give a discount on your work. Imagine how much you would pay them to advertise for you if you weren't involved in the project, and that will give you a good baseline for how much you can shave off your regular fee.
"No good deed goes unpunished"
As an artist who does commissions, two dangerous things always come to mind when someone is asking me to do something for exposure AND they're indicating that they don't take no for an answer well, ie you tell them once that the price is too low and you can't take the job, and they continue trying to negotiate without raising their offer.
The first thing is that if someone feels entitled to your time, your attention, your work, and your response to them criticizing and correcting you before they have given you a penny, what they will expect of you when they have paid will be worse, if they follow through on payment at all.
The second is that in addition to their work expectations, anyone with this kind of attitude is someone I wouldn't expect to respect the contract. My commission briefs are very specific about thinks like commercial rights, copyright, deadlines, and the fact that they can't just ask me for infinite revisions. But if someone feels entitled and doesn't listen to me when I say no, I don't trust them to read the contract correctly and respect it.
While getting it in writing does give me the ability to fight them legally, why accept a job that I already suspect would bring me extra legal trouble in disagreements with a confrontational client?
It should feel like a collaboration from start to finish. There is no amount of hours and love and effort I can put into artwork to satisfy someone who I can just not find understanding with. And it is definitely not a task worth the piss-poor subpar pay that these kinds of "clients" usually offer, if they offer to pay at all. And remember, not everyone who dms you is a customer or client. That title is reserved for people who actually have paid you for something. Don't let people twist "you're being mean to your client for not doing what they want" when they have never bought a single good or service from you and you haven't signed a damn thing.
7:30 RULE # 1 of BUSINESS: The way it is at the beginning is the way it is at the end. Never expect a client or business partner to change.
Musicians are also prone to this kind of offer and your advice is probably right for them too. To be honest if a prospective employer starts with the exposure claim it should set off alarm bells.
That’s also way too true for visual artists - they are constantly being asked to contribute to charity auctions.
Unless it's a show at a nude beach, too much exposure! 😳
It seems to me that if a client is big enough to justify selling the "exposure" then they are big enough to afford to pay for the work.
The charity auctions, of course, are for non-profits who need money. That's the world of the arts.
Love these segments, great questions every time.
One piece of advice I’ve heard is this one. “If you sell yourself as cheap, your reputation will stay that way in regards to exposure” “you will be know as the ‘good cheap one’”
i worked for a while for a stop animation company and they were penny pinching from moment one, the final straw was when they found out i had a 3d printer and just assumed it was available for their use, they pretty much planned what my printer would be doing for the next 3 months, and thats when i told them to get lost followed by blocking them on every point of ingress, it felt good to walk away, i also have made loads of props for friends for free and enjoyed every step of it.
Adam’s advice reminds me of how I operated as a freelance musician. 3 factors to consider: are you getting paid enough? Are you having fun? Are you learning? 2/3 is a good gig. 1/3 is questionable. 0/3 don’t do it.
2/3 of what?
As someone who does the odd commission, My take on it is to never take it