Atari vs. Pac-Man Knockoffs
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- Опубликовано: 2 фев 2017
- K.C. Munchkin is a Pac-Man clone that set off a groundbreaking legal battle with Atari. The ensuing court case would provide the groundwork for how copyright laws apply to video games.
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#Atari #PacMan #GamingHistorian 
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After playing a ton of Pac-Man clones during the making of this episode, I have to say that I really enjoyed K.C. Munchkin. Check it out sometime if you get a chance.
Gaming Historian rip nakamura
well made as always 😊
Gaming Historian I definitely will, it looks pretty rad.
That hair though LOL. Great video Norm :)
Great upload. Completely off topic, but have you read Box Brown's comic Tetris: The Games People Play? It's a great history of the development of Tetris and the international legal wranglings that led to its distribution in Europe and the U.S.
Rest in Peace Nakamura. You and Toru Iwatani gave us such pleasant gifts in the arcade.
My heart stopped. For I second I thought Shinsuke Nakamura died.
Chest Pec Respect he did
I think he meant Masaya Nakamura.
While reading it for a second I thought Masato Nakamura of Dreams Come True, composer for Sonic 1 and 2, died.
nakamura is a really common japanese last name anyways lol
The problem with Atari Pac-Man is that the programmer had six weeks in development: when the developer submitted an early alpha, Atari took it, packaged it, and put it in stores.
And then crashed the video game market
@Hyrule Legend A single game cant single handedly crash the industry. People didn't look at et and say "well this one game is bad so all video games are bad" the general public is stupid but not that stupid. ET was the final nail in the coffin. There were too many consoles that customers couldnt decide which one to buy, so many games were cheap and poorly made, atari produced more cartridges and systems hoping people would buy the system just for et (spoiler alert, they didn't) atari ended up with millions of games and systems nobody wanted and had to dig a landfill to bury all its stock which would become known as an unproven rumour until a documentary proved its existence and people were moving to far more powerful home computers. Then the nes came with its amazing exclusive titles and the market was saved in the U.S. (Nobody in Asia or Europe really suffered through the crash) I suggest watching Zero Punctuations video on it
ruclips.net/video/F8APwHQUHwY/видео.html
Five months, not six weeks. I believe you're thinking of E.T.
Did the dev really get all those royalties too?
@@bt3743 how was the gaming industry doing in the middle east before the nes came out (1983-1984)
I'm from the middle east (specifically Saudi Arabia)
But born in 2007
No I'm not telling you my name
I would rather play "K.C. Munchkin" instead of the Atari 2600 version of "Pac-Man" for sure, but I definitely love the Atari 2600 version of "Ms. Pac-Man" even more.
KC also won't give you seizures.
As Quote "Odyssey's Pac-Man" better than Atari's real deal. (6:27 & 6:29)
True. My neighbor had an Odyssey 2 and we would play it all the time till I got Ms. Pacman for my 2600.
K.C. Munchkin is a unique little game that IMO *just* hits that fine line between inspiration and plagiarism. But Atari would've done better to spend more time developing a better Pac-Man port and less time worrying about protecting its copyright holding. It's evident in the quality of the game. In the long run, K.C. is a beloved cult classic while Atari's Pac-Man is nothing short of infamous.
*+*
Uhh plane RIPP OFF
Marcus Isrealious *plain
Pac-Man on the Atari 2600 looks watered down in comparison to the Arcade version & K.C. Munchkin. (6:13)
I don't think Atari really cared how good their version of the game was, as long as everyone was buying it, I dont really think they cared. All they cared about was the name of the game and how popular it was.
The Ms. Pac Man port on Atari 2600 proves the system actually was powerful enough to faithfully re-create an authentic Pac-Man experience
Matt Beaudoin yeah Atari jist wanted to get it out in time for Christmas and didn't even care if the quality was good
No just a less crappy version that is fairly authentic compared to total crap. It still had flickery graphics and off key music and it played the same sound effect when you ate a Energizer and ate a Fruit and no intermissions.
I just watched a video of Ms. Pacman on the 2600. It doesn't look to me like a faithful recreation. The bad flickering along is enough to say no to that.
Now the Atari 800 computer had the power to create a faithful recreation of Ms. Pac Man, probably because the 800 was originally going to be a replacement for the 2600.
@@bjbell52 The 2600 Ms. Pacman is actually good though. It has multiple mazes, difficulty is just right, and the flickering isn't that bad on an actual 2600.
Totally agree. I remember being blown away by the Ms. Pac-Man port after suffering through the Pac-Man port. Really highlighted what a terrible programming job the first game was on the 2600. Embarrassingly bad.
Still seems like BS to me in the final appeal, most clones weren't nearly as clever as K.C. in their designs. And to have a licensee threaten and go to court instead of Namco is weird. Different time but I guess "maze game" was a term beyond their understanding, imagine if that happened again in the 90s because people lazily called every FPS game a Doom clone.
Logan Jorgensen I think if the ghosts in K.C. Munchkin had looked less ghost-like, they may have won in court
Wolfenstein. Not Doom. Doom would be labeled a clone too.
I'm not sure if this is sarcasm, but yes, all FPS were labelled Doom clones for a period of time.
@@theMoporter It was sarcasm, it's always been annoying when people label a game in a genre as a [blank] clone, it's gotten worse as many name drop "Dark Souls" when a game gets a little challenging. :\
So imagine if Raven as an ID engine licensee sued another maker of another FPS to understand where I'm coming from on this court case matter with K.C..
@@japhreal That ain't right,
I found this at a thrift store for $1 a while back, unfortunately I don't have an Odyssey 2 to play it on. Great vid as always!
Hey there again. I actually own KC Munchkin too but no Odyssey 2 lol I just remember seeing it a local retro games store for a few bucks and I saw CGR review it recently at that time so I just bought it anyway. Game looks like a lot of fun, but I certainly never played it yet.
KC munchkin actually looks more enjoyable than pacman
Joshua Ford Its a way better game.
Yeah, and the host is correct: the characters are indeed cute.
Because has some sort of extra replay value for those moving dots and the always changing mazes, I agree
Debatable. They are both good in there own right. Still, pac-man DID come first, but that didn’t (and doesn’t) stop kc munchkin from being awesome!🕹📟
KC Munchkin was FAR more enjoyable.
Atari Pac-Man was garbage. A hot, ugly mess. Pure and simple. KC Munchkin was so much fun. Still is. And it was FAR superior... and no, in the case of the maze chase game, it's really NOT debatable.
I lived it. My friends and I put it to the test at the very time that this was all going down, and in the context of Odyssey 2 and Atari being 2 of the 'current gen' systems that were actually out at the time; not retro haze. We had console wars back then too. My Atari snob friends admitted without hesitation that KC was technically far, FAR better and WAY more fun to play. I finally had a killer app that brought my Atari friends to MY house (my C64 was a bit confusing to them - game system? Computer? William Shatner didn't help).
It wasn't just randomized mazes either. You could edit and create your own mazes using they keyboard (you couldn't save them, but that's what graphing paper was for!), there were the invisible mazes... and the dots didn't just 'move a bit'... they flew around the maze running away from you, getting faster with each maze completed. You were chasing them as the monsters chased you.
The center monster corral rotated, adding yet another strategic element. You could step into the revolving door and be untouched... even exit into a section where the monsters would have to wait to get to you in the corral or take the long way around. You could construct mazes around that mechanic.
The game looked and sounded insanely better; there was zero comparison. It wasn't just embarrassing for Atari that it hit the market first, it was a game that was light years better than their product, infinitely more fun and sounded better as well... all on a system arguably quite a bit less powerful than the 2600. And yet, there were no flickering sprites, everything was more colorful and everything moved and moved quickly and smoothly (seriously... this game was INSANELY fast and smooth both for the era AND the system it was on). Hell, with clever manipulation the programmer swapped the power cube sprite out with an 'X' character super fast to give the impression that the power cube was flashing. Everything also had FAR more personality and better character design.
And as a nice little finishing touch (that admittedly has nothing to do with gameplay), like many/most Odyssey 2 games you could even add your name for high score using the keyboard.
Honestly, if I were Atari at the time, I would have been embarrassed and salty.
Imho, KC should never have been pulled; it was better/far more fun, faster, prettier, sounded better and had an list of features that differentiate it enough from Pac-Man to stand alone as a unique IP. Magnavox was right to be proud.
The first judge had it right.
Nice hearing about the oddessy 2, really underrated console
Yeah, it was better at sports game than Atari, so we hung out with the kid with Odyssey 2. (Basketball was the only sports game better on Atari.)
The game reminds me of TAX-MAN.
"What the Hell is Taxman? I didn't even know what the Hell I was talking about! I had too much to drink"
DoomGuy Pictures Ayyy, you watch that shitpickle.
My favorite megaman boss
YOU BETTER PAY THAT INCOME TAX, MEGAMAN!
Go watch avgn, he talked about taxman
the best odyssey 2 game. period
Pick -Axe Pete...or KC's Crazy Chase...this one is good though
Cosmic conflict is really good
but mario odyssey
What if Super Mario Oddysey was for the Oddysey 2?
Best game is "Quest for the Rings".
K.C. is in the top 5, though.
It is sad how this legal battle turned out, as KCM is clearly an original work. It shows the importance of not underestimating the outcome of court. It was sloppy of Magnavox to usd ghost-like enemies, though. Namco copyrighted the concept of a loading screen mini game, effectively killing the concept. Microsoft tried to copyright the color blue. Sega defeated the Simpson's Road Rage because it was an animated ride simulator, featuring a nav arrow. Someone needs to stand up against these giants stifling creative freedom in the name of profit. And that someone might just be a munchkin.
The irony about the Namco loading screen game patent was that it was invalid in the first place. There were previous examples of games that features mini-games on loading screens, thus Namco's patent was issued wrongfully. Had anyone actually CHALLENGED it, the patent would've been removed from them.
The Simpson's Road Rage is pretty much identical to Crazy Taxi, though. I think that is a fair case. Owning a loading screen mini game is ridiculous, though.
@@chocolatee7592
I'm guessing Microsoft tried to copyright Blue, but unfortunately got into a legal battle with Eiffel 65 who had already used the word "Blue" in a song back in 1998. I'm Blue dab a de dab a die.
microsoft?
I would think IBM would do something like that lol why blue?
curious
Yeah but a lot of those games clearly deserved it less than munchkin here. Its absolutely a pac man clone, it would not exist without it. We know they literally told them to make a pac man clone but to change a few visuals for legal reasons. It is by definition a rip off.
But that doesnt mean I wouldnt back munchkin over Atari. From what I understand they totally deserved it. Also they did evolve the gameplay somewhat so respect for that. Their game was better than the version of pac man Atari released anyways
Fuck yeah! A new Gaming Historian video! Let's oil up and hit the gym!
The monsters were spookier lol
Andrzej Ochał What? Do you think that was a joke? those monsters still scare the shit outta me, fuck.
Alf Lemon They killed my uncle!
Your videos are on another level when it comes to quality. I get excited for every single one.
Pretty good video! I thumbs-upped it, but I have to set the record straight on a few matters. As a friend of Tod Frye, having interactions with PAC-MAN creator Toru Iwatani, and having consulted with Namco's legal department when I worked there, I can clear some of this up.
First, the 2600 was not underpowered for PAC-MAN type games, as was demonstrated by later titles like Ms. PAC-MAN. It was the small ROM size coupled with Tod's decision to use part of the 2600's 128 bytes of RAM to store two player states which limited his game. Subsequent PAC-MAN titles done for the console only support a single player for this reason. Tod also chose not to go ahead with a flicker reduction system in part because Atari just wanted to get the game out.
As to the viewer comments about the released game being a "prototype" or rushed: that's all mythology. The rushed game was HSW's E.T.
Furthemore, Atari never had the PAC-MAN copyright. Namco did and has the copyrights and trademarks and registered trademarks. Atari had a limited-term exclusive home console and computer LICENSE. They copyrighted their specific ports of the game, but the rights to all Atari's home PAC-MAN games lapsed to Namco at the point of contract termination (just as Nintendo's Popeye game rights have lapsed to Popeye owner Hearst).
Finally, you really ought to use the period-correct logos. The Atari logos in your video is one of the much later incarnations of the company (read: bought) and not that of Atari Inc., which your story concerns.
"...because Atari just wanted the game out."
didn't that kinda contradict the next statement?
Great great comment - really wish people like this were producing vids. To this date, as a hardcore gamer who started in 79, i have yet to see a millenial or genZ produce a video without repeating the same common false contemporary narratives and/or without missing critical facts or context. These “experts” or “historians” run off to spend an hour on wiki or reddit, then make a video. If its slick they then convince their masses followers they know what they’re talking about it and really did a lot of “research”. It’s distasteful and sad. I don’t know how many people said things right here like “i never heard of kc munchkin before!” - which is just fine but it means you weren’t following gaming at all at the time (even mainstream news was covering these battles, and anyone who picked up a single issue of Electronic Games at the time would have heard of kc munchkin!), and then sadly say “wow, you’re really an expert, and I’m amazed how much research you did!”
- when the proper response should be: i dont know if this guy has any idea if he really knows what he’s talking about or if he’s giving me a solid “take”, and i wont assume that because the video seems well produced and he’s talking in a very self-assured, dulcet tone…
R.I.P. Namco founder
another very well done episode... this show always feels so... wholesome.
I love the PBS-style "thank you" at the end of your videos now, keep up the awesome work!
THIS IS AWESOME !!!! Just what I was looking for . Some history on older systems like Odyessy 2 , Atari 2600 , 5200 , Colecovision and Intellivision . Thank you so much . Keep them coming !!!!
I'm just here to post a comment about your hair. That's how this works, right?
Oh, and great video per usual! ;-)
Yes
Rocking the Soccer mom hair like AJ Styles! ;)
lol
Pixel Dan you know what time is ! Comparison time !
Pixel Dan he looks weird with long hair
you beat me to it!
Missed having videos of yours. Thanks so much for all the work and research that goes into them. May the Force be with you.
Another good episode, Sir. Thank you again. Keep 'em coming. At this point I feel I have learned more back-story info on some classic game lines from your videos than an entire lifetime of being a gamer; I started with an Atari 2600 and been playin' ever since.
I'd never heard of this one before. Interesting, well done video, as usual. Love how Atari's version pretty much came out worse than the knock-offs.
Great info thanks
Only 2 likes on a comment made 3 years ago by averified channel????
TF?
Glad to see you back, Norm! I'm looking forward to you other offerings this year!
These old game documentaries are fascinating. Keep up the great work 👌
I'm just going to sit here an appreciate a judges preference for K.C.Munchkins "spookier" ghosts. The 80's were a great time to be alive.
First he has long hair, then short hair, then long hair again. You can't explain that! /s
Dan Scannell that's cause he ties it back
The man's scalp works overtime while others rest
In some countries, hair grows back after you have it cut. Weird, uh?
I can vouch for that. It seems that my hair has a mind of its own sometimes.
Quick, someone find Bill O'Reilly!
It's great to see a new video from your channel.
As usual, I enjoy these episodes of Gaming Historian. Keep it up!
The Atari wasn't up to handling Pac-Man? I could believe that...EXCEPT that it was.
The case in point is that Ms. Pac-Man and especially Jr. Pac-Man prove that with cleaver programming, the 2600 was a hefty set of bare bones hardware. I've always said the programmer just didn't know how to pull it off, given the early era of the game's release.
Still...that's probably the ugliest home port of Pac ever made.
I was about to say the same thing. The 2600 had a lot of power if you know how to access it.
The Atari 2600 version of Ms. Pac-Man was handled by General Computer Corporation, the same people who created the arcade original.
The 2600 port was rushed. The execs sent the prototype out. Basically, the game was... unfinished? The more things change, the more they stay the same, I guess.
***** Both it and E.T. (another game that "broke" the U.S. home console industry, if you weren't aware) were actually revolutionary for their time, if what you said about this iteration of Pac-Man is true. Both times, it seems, executive meddling helped throw the industry into a tailspin.
DejaVoodooDoll I would say that a rise in the computer market did keep the crash running, but that's about it. Poor executive decisions and an over-influx of hardware are what, I believe, caused the crash.
Oh Atari, all that work for nothing…
You never fail to both entertain and amaze me Norm. Thank you for the years of hard work you have given to us
This was quite an interesting video and I love these types of videos as well! Thank you for making these great, informed videos about video game history!
I call bullsh*t on that statement about the 2600 being not powerful enough for Pac-Man. Ms. Pac-Man was ported to the system by Atari, and looked and played much better than Pac-Man 2600 (though the ROM on the cartridge was noticeably larger).
Also, a homebrew 2600 game called Pac-Man 4K was made by Dennis Debro that looks like how Pac-Man on the 2600 should look like.
So, obviously, the 2600 was able to handle Pac-Man. The problem was that Tod Frye was given very little time to develop the game to release the game for the holiday season; exactly the reason why E.T. was also a huge flop. In short, it wasn't Tod Frye or the 2600's hardware limitations to blame - it was Atari's fault for pushing the game when it wasn't even finished.
Also, the color changes were Atari-mandated. At the time, they wanted to visually emphasize the console's ability to output color graphics, so first-party developers were barred from using a black background to depict anything other than outer space.
Interesting! I just youtube-olged Pac-Man 4K. Although the 2600 hardware still limited that version, I didn't know it could be that good.
Yep. David Crane is a 2600 God! Supposedly he taught Bob Whitehead (one of Activison's founders) how to program the 2600 in 3 days. The way David crammed 256 screens (for the original Pitfall) into only 4k of cartridge space is extremely clever.
JW3HH
I messed around with all the possiblilites and figured out that each room could be explained in 12 bits, however I later learned it uses a seed-based random number generation to create the levels instead of a stored data system. Pitfall is my favorite 2600 game, David did use a ton of tricks to make everything in pitfall appear on the screen
Bit of both IMO. Rushed developments was certainly the main problem but it's not fair to compare it to PM4k. Modern homebrews can do things which people thought was impossible back then.
The system is only really designed to handle 2 sprites when they use 5 and they have 4 pathfinding enemies with 2 different modes on a
A new LGR Tech Tales and a new Gaming Historian on the same day. Doesn't get much better than this.
KC's Krazy Chase also uses the Odyssey2 Voice adapter which really wowed me as a kid to hear KC talk. Great video on this subject!
good to see you again. good stuff
Atari games are real fun. I still play them.
uuh what? Atari games are fun.
Intimidation Yeah when The 2600 has haves worst knock off bootlegs.
and i applause you sir for that
Maybe I'm just spoiled but I honestly can't really play Atari games. They are just too...archaic. Of course, I still respect the and realize their impact, but once you go 8-bit an beyond, you can't go back.
Intimidation not much
KC munchkin is a great game...
funkyflights Arguably better then PAC MAN.
Fascinating as always. I've actually never heard of "K.C. Munchkin" before this episode, and now I must play it.
Happy Friday!
Thanks for the new episode!
i see you're rocking the John Romero style
another great video with a dude with even more awesome hair
Happy new man, looking forward to all your new content this year.
Another quality episode. Thanks!
Great hair Norm, I mean great video.
Pure quality.
I really liked LadyBug on Coleco. My favorite clone.
That and Mouse Trap.
Thanks for making a video! Really liked your channel because your content is really unique and I'm always looking forward for new content since last year. 👍
Nice to see you back dude.
Why does your hair always looks great?
the long hair really fits him!!(^ v ^)
From what it looks it won't be around for long if you know what I mean
The Skrillex Historian!!!
Beside Jokes, nice video man!
Dat Hair.
Great Video Norman! As always !
Such an great piece of gaming history! Executed perfectly and very informative. Great video all around :)
And yet somehow Pac Guy made it through...
Maybe Atari should have spent a little less time chasing every other game inspired by Pac-Man and a little more time making their Pac-Man port not look like crap
Love your work Norm. Keep doing your thing bro. Love when you and @PixelDan collaborate.
Amazing Video! Love that I always learn something new from watching your videos.
I have to disagree the 2600 couldn't produce a better Pac-man. Pac-man 4k says different.
just look that game up and you're right, don't know why they didn't do that back then.
Tximino M Probably because not only didn't they have almost 40 years of information on how to get the absolute most out of the hardware at their disposal, but that the port was also incredibly rushed to market to make as much off the popularity as possible while the demand was guaranteed, and the gettin was good.
This exactly. Games like Pacman 4K use programming tricks that simply weren't known back then. But even without those tricks, Pac-Man could have looked much better had it not been rushed like it was. Ms. Pac-Man, released four months later, already looks and sounds significantly better.
even the Fairchild channel for could do better than the unfinished atari port
Well, if Atari 2600 programmers of the early 1980s knew what could have been done using the skill and knowledge of homebrew game creators from a few decades later, the Atari 2600 Pac-Man sure would have looked a lot more different. Pac-Man 4K in 1982 would have been worth Atari making more cartridges of that game than there were game systems to play them on. Maybe then the 5200 wouldn't have been released for Pac-Man fans looking to get their arcade fix at home with its version. Who knows.
Can you do a history on CDI?
maybe if we have enough rubies, and come back when were a little mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
richer
The production value for these videos is excellent. The research, filming, editing, narrating and effects are top notch. Do you do everything yourself? Great job.
Tip top vid as always. Cheers from Pittsburgh
Why do so many people care about Norm's hair? lol just let the man be!
matix2341 I agree why people hounding him about his hair just watch the video for God's sake and let the man be his long hair doesn't have effect on anyone it's his business if he wants to wear his hair long short or he wants to be bald people are so judgemental if they don't like his long hair then stop watching this videos I hate trolls really hate trolls
THE MAN IS A CELEBRITY AND HIS HAIR BELONGS TO HIS FANS
K.C. Muchkin for Smash!
Excellent vid as usual. Continue the good work.
I own both KC Munchkin and KC's Krazy Chase for the Odyssey 2, and if you play Krazy Chase with Odyssey 2, "The Voice" device attached, it becomes even more obvious that Krazy Chase is essentially Phillips/Magnavox' big flaming middle finger to Atari. IMO that device makes an already fun game 100% funnier.
The hair looked better
That hair, tho.
Nice job!
I was wondering when you were going to upload a new video.
I was surprised by this video! Good job!
Great video, as always! Thank-you!
I like older video game and console reviews, 12:04 is too short for a video like this in opinion, 15:00 min. is the most conmon time but around 30:00 makes for an extra good informative segment to absorb. TGH makes great videos, i'm just used to the longer episodes, thanks alway though!
Man, that second court made a stupid decision. It'd be like if somebody sued bungie for making halo. It's a first person game and you run around shooting people!
Great episode Norm!
another great video as always
I know about this game because of Cinemassacare
Speaking of Pac-man clones, I would like to see an episode on the origins of Ms. Pac-Man, and how it caused business conflicts between Midway and Namco.
Another great video, thank you!
great episode!
Well it seems there's one thing that the new """Atari""" shares in common with the original: Copyright lawsuits!
Just ask Jeff Minter about the threat they made to him about TxK and "Tenpest 2000".
I like Gaming Historian videos before the ad is even finished...
Love your videos man.
whooo! new episode!
I was a gamer back then and this ruling was bullshit! I owed the atari version and played the Odyssey version as well. The Munchkin game was clearly superior. There were several Space Invaders knockoffs before then and they didn't get taken off the market.
Am I the weirdo for liking KC munchkin more than pacman?
No you're not. I like it better than pac man
Another great video dude, really enjoyed it.
Your hair is on point by the way.
You make very interesting videos. Keep up the great work!
(insert dumb ass comment about your long hair)
I think it looks awesome bro. Don't let these shit heads get you down. It's pretty interesting that they care so much though. Cheers.
The brainwashing is strong within them.
Awesome video, as always.
thanks for the great content :) always a good lesson when watching your stuff
KC munchkin was one of my first video games I ever played growing up. Thanks for the little history lesson behind the PAC man clone.
loved the video, you always do a great job collecting information.
Dude amazing content as always ! Wow so entertaining ! Thanks !
Another great and informative video, thanks.
Great job putting it all together. Thoroughly enjoyable.
At about the same time, My father and I worked on an imitation of Pac-Man for the TRS-80 called 'Spooks.' Unfortunately, the TRS-80 at the time suffered from a clunky 'cassette player' form of downloading software and it went nowhere despite some money thrown into advertising, which soon ran out and probably only 30-40 games were ordered and sent out. Live and learn! Thanks for putting this together.
Keep up the good work, sir!
nice video, it was pretty interesting and u should do more episodes
My family owned a business that dealt all Magnavox items and we had an Odyssey 2 growing up. There were several kool games like Pick Axe Pete and Turtles. KC's Crazy Chase was a lot of fun as well. We even had the voice module add on which was so amazing at the time. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
Another excellent and informative video. Thank you.