On the point between parity between M+ and raiding in the video I wish blizzard would stop tuning for the sweatlords and lower raids difficulty to match M+. The game would do a lot better that way and they are working towards it slowly with all the changes for the casuals.
Agreed, Mythic could be a Natural progression past Heroic, Instead of catering so much content to that 0.1% of the population, have it a challenge, but Doable for any guild. have it the same progress as the difference between Normal and Heroic. If you can kill the final boss of Normal, you should be able to do the first few bosses of Heroic etc.
i used to be a semi hardcore raider in WoTLK (the real one) i was part of one of the best guilds on the server. we never managed to kill LK25hc sadly, but i think ICC25 is the best raid ever made. the raid felt difficult without the need of massive ability bloat. fail states where much fewer and encounters where more tuned to dps and healing output rather than one person standing in the wrong place and immediately wipes the raid. fast forward to legion where i get back into hardcore raiding and get into mythic raids and the shear amount of abilities to track is multiplied by 3. constant movement and fail states. the playerbase is aging so is our ability to keep track of that many mechanics combined with classes being far more complex than they used to be. as an ENH shaman i spend more time looking at my action bars than i do on on the screen to make sure i dont stand in shit. i absolutely hate that end game is tuned the 1% of the 1%. remember when the first raid tier in legion was actually easier and allowing less skilled people actually able to clear mythic? people flooded into raiding, and i dont think raiding have been as friendly to newcomers since.
Notice the pattern, not all affixes were actually being removed, and i don't mean the ones that actually was not being removed or are set to specific levels, i mean that they are just changed in are set into different difficulty levels, they are just mixed around but added a positive spin on them which is still of binary nature. Blizzard you are not exactly tricking all of us, i mean yeah i like it that they are more willing to change things so fast, that's great, but at what cost, having you see what happens how they implemented Xal'atath's affixes? Try being ready to deal with basically 30 AoE cc spells every time for when that happens on top of normal CC. It literally looks likes they are trying to promote the use of defensive CDs even more in case you can't, for whatever reason counter the affix. So fundamentally nothing really changed, they are just throwing you a bone here and there and they are also kinda punishing you cause you made them actually having to think to make an affix more than whatever everything else was, extremely simple.
I just resent that so much effort goes into the raid and mythic dungeons to begin with. It feels as though this is to the detriment of the world for a while now.
may i suggest 2 big Lore videos? 1) What is the place of Blood Magic in wow? 2) look very close at the pruple "oldgod infested planets". those are roots and not old gods. tentacles d not split into smaller tentacles. 1=first problem: why is Blood Magic it related to gold (light) magic as seen in Atal dazar and the battle of dazar alore? But why does it also have a connection to death and especially Elune? (Nazmir story ark) my second connection to this topic would be Life vs Nature coloure shemes: why is Life almost always (blood/nightmare) red like Alextraza but Nature is is green like the emerald dream/green dragons. where is the connection? 2=my third BIG question in lore is: Why do those purple "corrupted planets" we see in Art never look loke Old god infested but look like overgrown. to be precise: tentacles of oldgods do NOT split like roots do. look closely --- do you see it? "corrupted world" are overgrown by plants?!
The timer needs to go, and Blizzard needs to make actual enjoyable dungeons. Not time trials that breed an increasingly toxic community for the sake of 'retention'. Their design choices have chased the majority of their playerbase away and they still think their ideas are golden.
I remember this small period of time in WoW where during dungeons you had to use CC to win. And like ... not everyone had CC so it made the tools people brought to the fight all the more important. Even if your dps wasn't the best, if you could hex or shackle it made all the difference. Idk... that's the kind of stuff my brain can comprehend. I don't really get a lot of what's going on now... I just pew pew and try to keep moving. 🤣🤣🤣
Mythic just needs a complete rework, its even effecting class design to a point that everyone has to be able to pump aoe, stun, kick thats is all an after effect of Mythic+ and its not good for class diversity or at all. And arent we getting tired of the chain pull AoE the pack down gameplay...its kinda getting boring and stale.
I'm curious where you saw "four xalateth bargain affix" information. I reread the blizzard post and I didn't see them say anything other than two xalateth bargain affixes are available this week to test. I do hope there are four, just trying to find out where they said this.
@@omarcomming722 Yup. Blizzard continually try to design around a problem instead of actually taking a step back and trying to deal with actual problem of M+. So there will be less death cheese, but it will also mean that actual mistakes will be punished harshly by the community and the demands for people grouping will be even higher; not because of Blizzard, but because players will create their own subset of rules to preemptively deal with the way Blizzard has changed the design.
@@frostmagemarii Exactly, and anyone blaming the playerbase at large for this is an idiot. This behavior is caused by Blizzard's game design, and to take an extreme example, if every M+ run was as braindead and fast as clearing normal, there would be no toxicity and no gatekeeping with invites. The harder the content and the greater the punishment, the more toxicity there will be in the community simple as that, because people don't want to waste their time and fail without getting any of the rewards.
What kills m+ the most is having abysmall bad luck regarding loot. No the fucking weekly chest doesnt counter the fact that i just ran 30 dungeons and got either nothing, gear i already have or shit stat gear
Okay, I could never get into m+ because of all the affix bs. Being the dungeon junkie I am, it ruined a huge part of the game for me. I haven't really subbed regularly since mop for other reasons. Once I could sub regularly this was my biggest reason not to. I like the looks of this though.
There were some fun ones in BFA and the last one in shadowlands iirc, but generally, yeah.. the xalatath thingy on beta feels pretty good tbf, you do a cc or 2 and get 20% haste so you can just blast, or you can execute mobs like a mothafucka. It feels much, much, much better, it doesnt even compare.
Then y’all will complain about cc, trash mobs, depletion, bosses, having to go to the dungeon, keys scaling, etc. Timers are needed in the system. Do m0 if you don’t like them or make your own completion only group.
At a certain point they just need to realize that M+ just isn't fun, and there is nothing they can do to make it fun. Quality dungeons with better design space would be leagues better, but they're instead wasting all their design space around affix and timer speedrunning, and its starting to damage classes in other areas of the game, PVP has become an AOE cleave fests with too much mobility because every class kit now naturally just cleaves AOE damage and needs to run fast because they're designed around m+ speedrunning now. They simply need to stop trying to replace satisfying encounter design with random affixes and timers. Content is king, and recycled content with more numbers is simply not new content.
Yep, they should make unique quality dungeons. They will no longer be that the 3rd time you run them, but might as well waste resources on that too I guess.
Except that M+ is fun. People enjoy progressive, scaling content. Yes, dungeon and encounter design are key. No, the affix system has not added the right kinds of challenges. But M+ is, and has been since its introduction, incredibly popular.
If one has been running them since Legion, and arguably, the game is now being designed for retention, than I think the majority are not in the “M+ is king” camp anymore. It has worn out its welcome. Raiding should be the focus of innovative design. More dungeons, scenarios, delves, not scaling recycled.
@@jwhitefoot1976 Progression means doing something new because you have advanced past the previous. Doing a +2 doing 1k DPS vs a mob with 1 million health is not much different than doing a +10 doing 10k DPS against the same exact mob with 10million DPS and has a random affix that might actually kill you now. And of course everyone is going to do M+ if they want to raid, the best pre-raid gear comes from M+ welfare chests, you litterally will be benched from your raid group if you are not farming M+, just because it is mandatory doesn't mean it is popular, everyone farmed artifact power and azerite in Legion/BFA but we all know that both of those systems were hated. And case and point is MDI viewership is lower than AWC and PVP has been abandoned by blizzard entirely, and you're not forced to PVP to raid unlike M+ so it makes no sense why MDI viewership would be so abysmal other than the fact that no one cares about speedrunning esports. I guarantee you if you gave M+ gear the same treatment as PVP gear and made it only scale in M+ no one would be running M+
Everything after +7 is horrible, once again designing the game for the highest end portion of the playebase. Not a single normal person likes tyrannical and Fortified because they are the lazy and the tedious way of adding difficulty, I hate +hp/dmg in every game be it Diablo, WoW, or ng+ in Sousl games, so having BOTH guarantees I'll never touch +10s in WW. Stop making the game for the sweats.
yeah, but they are still annoying, on beta it feels so much better, you think about the dungeon and the mobs themselves, not , oh shit, kick that, dispel the afflicted, if there is no one else dispelling the second one, dispel that one as well right when the cd drops, do damage at the same time, dodge frontals, dodge swirlies, dodge shit. It just lets you play the dungeon itself, not the affixes.
They don´t remove the affixes but replace the bargain affix with a flat dmg and hp increase. So the dungeon gets even harder but with no weekly variation.
@@Lykanor Bargains are the only affixes. Every other affix is just scaling in disguise and the scaling will be adjusted until it's not stupid. So far from what I've seen the Orbs Bargain looks like just another irritation
I dont know why but it bothers me so so much that you use the word are instead of is. Its just something you do that annoys me, kinda like people that dont understand their from they're and such.
On the point between parity between M+ and raiding in the video I wish blizzard would stop tuning for the sweatlords and lower raids difficulty to match M+. The game would do a lot better that way and they are working towards it slowly with all the changes for the casuals.
Agreed, Mythic could be a Natural progression past Heroic, Instead of catering so much content to that 0.1% of the population, have it a challenge, but Doable for any guild. have it the same progress as the difference between Normal and Heroic. If you can kill the final boss of Normal, you should be able to do the first few bosses of Heroic etc.
i used to be a semi hardcore raider in WoTLK (the real one) i was part of one of the best guilds on the server. we never managed to kill LK25hc sadly, but i think ICC25 is the best raid ever made. the raid felt difficult without the need of massive ability bloat. fail states where much fewer and encounters where more tuned to dps and healing output rather than one person standing in the wrong place and immediately wipes the raid. fast forward to legion where i get back into hardcore raiding and get into mythic raids and the shear amount of abilities to track is multiplied by 3. constant movement and fail states. the playerbase is aging so is our ability to keep track of that many mechanics combined with classes being far more complex than they used to be. as an ENH shaman i spend more time looking at my action bars than i do on on the screen to make sure i dont stand in shit.
i absolutely hate that end game is tuned the 1% of the 1%. remember when the first raid tier in legion was actually easier and allowing less skilled people actually able to clear mythic? people flooded into raiding, and i dont think raiding have been as friendly to newcomers since.
How can it be both challenging and doable for ANY guild?@@GeargutzMekshop
Notice the pattern, not all affixes were actually being removed, and i don't mean the ones that actually was not being removed or are set to specific levels, i mean that they are just changed in are set into different difficulty levels, they are just mixed around but added a positive spin on them which is still of binary nature.
Blizzard you are not exactly tricking all of us, i mean yeah i like it that they are more willing to change things so fast, that's great, but at what cost, having you see what happens how they implemented Xal'atath's affixes?
Try being ready to deal with basically 30 AoE cc spells every time for when that happens on top of normal CC.
It literally looks likes they are trying to promote the use of defensive CDs even more in case you can't, for whatever reason counter the affix.
So fundamentally nothing really changed, they are just throwing you a bone here and there and they are also kinda punishing you cause you made them actually having to think to make an affix more than whatever everything else was, extremely simple.
I just resent that so much effort goes into the raid and mythic dungeons to begin with. It feels as though this is to the detriment of the world for a while now.
Combining raiding and mythic+ probably accounts for at least 30% of the playerbase. Not putting effort into it would be stupid.
may i suggest 2 big Lore videos?
1) What is the place of Blood Magic in wow?
2) look very close at the pruple "oldgod infested planets". those are roots and not old gods. tentacles d not split into smaller tentacles.
1=first problem:
why is Blood Magic it related to gold (light) magic as seen in Atal dazar and the battle of dazar alore?
But why does it also have a connection to death and especially Elune? (Nazmir story ark)
my second connection to this topic would be Life vs Nature coloure shemes:
why is Life almost always (blood/nightmare) red like Alextraza but Nature is is green like the emerald dream/green dragons. where is the connection?
2=my third BIG question in lore is:
Why do those purple "corrupted planets" we see in Art never look loke Old god infested but look like overgrown.
to be precise: tentacles of oldgods do NOT split like roots do. look closely --- do you see it? "corrupted world" are overgrown by plants?!
Now lose the timer, and have the difficulty be the main part
No. Boring.
@@adsdsasdasdas8069you're boring if you think the timer is fun.
This I agree with 💯
The timer needs to go, and Blizzard needs to make actual enjoyable dungeons. Not time trials that breed an increasingly toxic community for the sake of 'retention'. Their design choices have chased the majority of their playerbase away and they still think their ideas are golden.
@@frostmagemarii just play normal mythic, no timer
For some reason the accents and the Druid seal thing made me think of Song of the Sea.
I remember this small period of time in WoW where during dungeons you had to use CC to win. And like ... not everyone had CC so it made the tools people brought to the fight all the more important. Even if your dps wasn't the best, if you could hex or shackle it made all the difference. Idk... that's the kind of stuff my brain can comprehend. I don't really get a lot of what's going on now... I just pew pew and try to keep moving. 🤣🤣🤣
Mythic just needs a complete rework, its even effecting class design to a point that everyone has to be able to pump aoe, stun, kick thats is all an after effect of Mythic+ and its not good for class diversity or at all. And arent we getting tired of the chain pull AoE the pack down gameplay...its kinda getting boring and stale.
This is what happened in MOP.
Everyone had everything because massive amount damage and dos phases everyone did everything.
I'm curious where you saw "four xalateth bargain affix" information. I reread the blizzard post and I didn't see them say anything other than two xalateth bargain affixes are available this week to test. I do hope there are four, just trying to find out where they said this.
I really hope this leads to less death cheese after +7, and more players doing less stupid things that get them one shotted.
No it won't, it will only result in more wipes leading to instant disbands and tanked keys, that's how people react to changes like these.
@@omarcomming722 Yup. Blizzard continually try to design around a problem instead of actually taking a step back and trying to deal with actual problem of M+.
So there will be less death cheese, but it will also mean that actual mistakes will be punished harshly by the community and the demands for people grouping will be even higher; not because of Blizzard, but because players will create their own subset of rules to preemptively deal with the way Blizzard has changed the design.
@@frostmagemarii Exactly, and anyone blaming the playerbase at large for this is an idiot. This behavior is caused by Blizzard's game design, and to take an extreme example, if every M+ run was as braindead and fast as clearing normal, there would be no toxicity and no gatekeeping with invites.
The harder the content and the greater the punishment, the more toxicity there will be in the community simple as that, because people don't want to waste their time and fail without getting any of the rewards.
Blizzard have hit the nail on the head with these changes
What kills m+ the most is having abysmall bad luck regarding loot. No the fucking weekly chest doesnt counter the fact that i just ran 30 dungeons and got either nothing, gear i already have or shit stat gear
They should have just removed the timer.
Okay, I could never get into m+ because of all the affix bs. Being the dungeon junkie I am, it ruined a huge part of the game for me. I haven't really subbed regularly since mop for other reasons. Once I could sub regularly this was my biggest reason not to. I like the looks of this though.
Why tf can't they just make fun affixes like the ability to heroic leap around the dungeon or pockets of super haste?
Affixes are not fun. Never have been.
It's not that they're inherently unfun, it's just that the ones Blizzard came up with suck.
And the most unfun ones are tyrannical and fortified, the ones they are now stacking
There were some fun ones in BFA and the last one in shadowlands iirc, but generally, yeah.. the xalatath thingy on beta feels pretty good tbf, you do a cc or 2 and get 20% haste so you can just blast, or you can execute mobs like a mothafucka. It feels much, much, much better, it doesnt even compare.
Remove timers and I’ll be back 😅
Then y’all will complain about cc, trash mobs, depletion, bosses, having to go to the dungeon, keys scaling, etc. Timers are needed in the system. Do m0 if you don’t like them or make your own completion only group.
No
Why not just ask Blizzard to make all your toons level 80 with max level gear so you don’t have to be inconvenienced by playing the game?
They’re basically doing that by buffing m0?
Like you're complaining now? @@keithb6344
Good, gooooood…
At a certain point they just need to realize that M+ just isn't fun, and there is nothing they can do to make it fun.
Quality dungeons with better design space would be leagues better, but they're instead wasting all their design space around affix and timer speedrunning, and its starting to damage classes in other areas of the game, PVP has become an AOE cleave fests with too much mobility because every class kit now naturally just cleaves AOE damage and needs to run fast because they're designed around m+ speedrunning now.
They simply need to stop trying to replace satisfying encounter design with random affixes and timers. Content is king, and recycled content with more numbers is simply not new content.
Yep, they should make unique quality dungeons. They will no longer be that the 3rd time you run them, but might as well waste resources on that too I guess.
Except that M+ is fun. People enjoy progressive, scaling content. Yes, dungeon and encounter design are key. No, the affix system has not added the right kinds of challenges. But M+ is, and has been since its introduction, incredibly popular.
If one has been running them since Legion, and arguably, the game is now being designed for retention, than I think the majority are not in the “M+ is king” camp anymore. It has worn out its welcome. Raiding should be the focus of innovative design. More dungeons, scenarios, delves, not scaling recycled.
@@jwhitefoot1976 Progression means doing something new because you have advanced past the previous.
Doing a +2 doing 1k DPS vs a mob with 1 million health is not much different than doing a +10 doing 10k DPS against the same exact mob with 10million DPS and has a random affix that might actually kill you now.
And of course everyone is going to do M+ if they want to raid, the best pre-raid gear comes from M+ welfare chests, you litterally will be benched from your raid group if you are not farming M+, just because it is mandatory doesn't mean it is popular, everyone farmed artifact power and azerite in Legion/BFA but we all know that both of those systems were hated. And case and point is MDI viewership is lower than AWC and PVP has been abandoned by blizzard entirely, and you're not forced to PVP to raid unlike M+ so it makes no sense why MDI viewership would be so abysmal other than the fact that no one cares about speedrunning esports.
I guarantee you if you gave M+ gear the same treatment as PVP gear and made it only scale in M+ no one would be running M+
@@joshuadoehr5468 M+ wore out its welcome in Legion.
This is good content
Everything after +7 is horrible, once again designing the game for the highest end portion of the playebase. Not a single normal person likes tyrannical and Fortified because they are the lazy and the tedious way of adding difficulty, I hate +hp/dmg in every game be it Diablo, WoW, or ng+ in Sousl games, so having BOTH guarantees I'll never touch +10s in WW.
Stop making the game for the sweats.
I don’t give a shit about M+. Just make pvp AND ENHANCE great!
GOOD
if only they would just remove M+ and try something new.
like what
good
I am like number 157
too little too late.
Mythic+ in current season is already in a pretty good spot IMO with the new scaling and generally nerfed affixes. These changes should be even better.
yeah, but they are still annoying, on beta it feels so much better, you think about the dungeon and the mobs themselves, not , oh shit, kick that, dispel the afflicted, if there is no one else dispelling the second one, dispel that one as well right when the cd drops, do damage at the same time, dodge frontals, dodge swirlies, dodge shit. It just lets you play the dungeon itself, not the affixes.
Reduce how many i need to complete per week for the best reward and ill care. Max 5
No, 8 is fine. If you want 3 options for rewards, doing 8 dungeons isnt much. If you cant, then thats fine, you can get less options.
Removing affixes for the 1% and everyone else gets punished.
They don´t remove the affixes but replace the bargain affix with a flat dmg and hp increase. So the dungeon gets even harder but with no weekly variation.
@@Lykanor Bargains are the only affixes. Every other affix is just scaling in disguise and the scaling will be adjusted until it's not stupid. So far from what I've seen the Orbs Bargain looks like just another irritation
I dont know why but it bothers me so so much that you use the word are instead of is. Its just something you do that annoys me, kinda like people that dont understand their from they're and such.