Your ability to make so many videos out of one topic is truly a talent. I watch & enjoy them all. I look forward to seeing your 1,000th video on the state of nu-metal, 10 years from now
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA personally, I don’t mind genre/topic changes between videos, but I totally understand your predicament due to how the RUclips algorithm works and that sort of stuff. You’re one of my trusty music RUclipsrs to start my mornings off in a good mood.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA You can do videos about anything that happened within the world of rock between 1978 and 2010. Anything beyond that…we don’t care. In fact, it would be crazy diddy creepy if we did. Depressing, but it is what it is. I can’t make myself care about stuff that appeals to whippersnappers. The stuff that neopunkfm covers…for example…just too childish and internet oriented.
Classic metal sounds dated, sure, but they invented the entire concept of metal and heavy guitar music, downtuning, shred and even the aesthetics, the "evilness". The "horns" is probably the most influential symbol in all popular music and considering all of this list, I think not even the most modern Spiritbox type of band can escape the fact that classic metal was the foundation
@@deathring7339 Nah man, all those things made up the classic metal tree... thrash was the crazy whirly-bird type seed that flew away and planted a whole new forest. The first form of rock to totally ditch its roots.
The most important genre is probably "classic metal" since that is the one that made the most money and provided a platform for all of the other sub-genres to exist.
I understand why everyone is saying nü metal but I'd argue hair metal was more important for the same reason. It showed the industry that heavy music could be commercially viable on a large scale.
Thrash is my favorite subgenre for many reasons. Theres an endless list of bands to discover, there's bands that sound different strictly based on their vocal style, each scene has its own take on it, the album cover art tends to be awesome, the feeling you get from hearing a solid riff that adds a second guitar on top of the first one
Agreed, ever seen that top 150 thrash metal albums list? I modified/elongated it a little to my own tastes, but the basics is, a lot of thrash bands came and went, leaving amazing music not many have heard, like say Atrophy, just 2 albums, but holy fuck are they good.
As someone who's been watching your videos for several years now, I think this might be one of your most fair and objective videos so far. Even though it's all for fun, you brought up so many important factors on each genre that it really allows you to see both sides of each matchup
My issue with Nu Metal beating Classic Metal in terms of importance is that, while Nu Metal probably is more directly influential to metal now, Classic metal influenced the genre (well, created it) at a time when metal was much, much more influential as a whole. Classic Metal directly influenced bands like Metallica which is a household name. Nu Metal influences bands that, respectfully, the vast majority of people have never heard of and probably will never hear about. In 40 years time, the bands that classic metal influenced will be remembered, the ones that Nu Metal influenced probably will not, at least they won't if current trends continue.
the existence of nu metal still feels like a fever dream. nu metal is one of the most recent metal subgenres, but the impact it has to this day is massive
The jump from classic metal like dio iron maiden priest sabbath etc to thrash is enormous. The guitar tone, speed of the drumming, the riff style and lyrical content being so dark its such a huge leap
If you really look at both musical and cultural dimension of bands such as Korn, Limp Bizkit, Slipknot, Linkin Park, SOAD, Deftones, Evanescence, the genre legacy and it's lasting impact on several generations, I think it's fair to say that overall Nü Metal is bigger than Thrash.
On classic sounding 'rocky', I really think one of the reasons modern metal sounds so stale, with some exceptions, is it stripped out so much blues and rock influence that it became kind of rigid
I absolutely agree that modern metal sounds stale, especially with the overuse of "djent" and extremely formulaic production methods. However, blues and rock oriented guitar playing became stale, too. There were only so many riffs or melodies you could write in the pentatonic scale, unfortunately. I think modern metal's predicament is that there are metal bands doing new things, but they're too weird. I love experimental black and death metal that uses bizarre scales and all kinds of dissonance (which is still pretty inventive), but I recognize it's far too angular to ever be popular. Then, on the other end, artists like Sleep Token or Poppy make occasionally heavy music that is accessible but feels a bit too distant from what metal started as. This was really long, sorry, lmao. I guess my point was that bands are kinda damned if they do, damned if they don't
@@AgainstTheeWickedlyMusic I don't think blues or rock being stale has a lot to do with metal's situation though (that is a whole separate discussion, worth having but too big for me to get into here). The point is, metal spends too much time avoiding rock and blues sounds, which would add much needed tones it is now sorely lacking. Maybe the blues got stale, but the blues in the hands of Iron Maiden wasn't stale when they were putting out albums like the Seventh Son, because it had some of those blues elements but also had a lot of other elements like classical in there. These days I would much rather listen to a metal band whose sound is all over the map and not strictly confined to a narrow subgenre than one following a narrow path of sound
@Bedrockbrendan I agree with what you said about Maiden, they did use those sounds well. And I will say, too, if you do still want blues and rock influence in your metal, doom metal, stoner metal, and sludge metal all take a lot of influence from blues and psychedelic rock. (Though, I will say I vastly prefer the gothic/melodic side of doom, and the noisy kind of sludge.) Unfortunately, a good chunk of them just sound like Black Sabbath knockoffs, and I think that's maybe part of the issue with that playing style. The classic metal bands used that sound so well that new bands just sound like they're copying them if they do. Which cycles back to why bands are stuck, cause they either sound generic for playing somewhat dated, traditional metal riffs, or generic in a modern sense for copying Architects or Periphery
@@AgainstTheeWickedlyMusic This is one of the reasons I always liked early Doom. There is value in going back to classic stuff like sabbath and deep purple. It can get old though if that is all band does
But thrash bands wouldn't of been the way they were without the new wave of brittish heavy metal, Maiden and Priest were massive influences on bands like Metallica and Exodus
Agree with this take. When you look at the big four of the US and also factor in bands like Sodom, Destruction and Kreator, it's kinda hard to argue that thrash isn't the king.
yeah, like if we made a bracket of all your content, brackets would probably go head to head in the final match up, and lose to the S tier that is tier lists.[Id also love to see a bracket of core genres too honestly]
Metalcore and deathcore are like 80percent metal , 15 percent core and 5 percent other. As such should def be included when the winner ( and correctly so ) genre of Thrash contains a higher percentage of core by at least 8 percent . I’ve compiled these numbers just from memory , my own perspective and comprehension of the clear differences between the genres , but if tasked to do so could come up with the raw data to support my claim.
Of course classic metal is the most important as it started it all. And it's also the best! ❤ There's no way any metal after classic metal features such iconic songs like: "War Pigs" "Heaven and Hell" "Hallowed be thy Name" "Children of the damned" "Breaking the law" "You've got another thing coming" Etc etc.
As someone who loves power metal, and considers the genre to be one of my favs, I am self aware enough to know that it really bears 0 influence/importance on music/metal at large. I just love cheeseball music about battles and dragons. I'm just a big nerd.
Thrash for sure, it was the first version of rock that used intervals completely unrelated to its roots. Its integration into other forms of music pretty much killed blues-based rock in a matter of years. While grunge might be the dividing line between classic rock and almost everything after, it started with thrash.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA I'm not even that much of a metal head, but as far as I'm concerned the two defining moments in rock evolution were Robert Johnson, and Thrash. Everything else was a blend of pre-existing elements.
The thing with grindcore vs. metalcore is that as long as adding the “core” to anything makes it just as if not more inaccesible, then it’s metal, but if it makes it more appealing to broader audience, it’s clearly not. The gatekeepy metalhead’s worst nightmare is HIS kind of music being listened to by women and nuch of high schoolers.
@dimitrije018 Eventually, yeah. Just remember them being the first time I heard the term "Metal core" Best example is the intro guy saying it at the beginning of their "Live at the Ritz" video
Yeah, both crossover thrash and metalcore was used in the 80's, in Canada, Sacrifice was described as metalcore by some people, the name is older than Converge strangely enough, but crossover thrash or just crossover is the main label for their stuff. Check out Dead Horse, that was another great Crossover band, or Cryptic Slaughter. Agnostic Front even went there with the Cause For Alarm LP, some songs were co-written by the main guitarist from Carnivore heh, they toned it a bit down with Liberty And Justice For... but it was still Crossover imo. The Eliminator is the best song they made from that phase of theirs.
@@hulluporo9067 Yeah, no. Not to people who discovered them when they were 22 like me. But yes, their return is highlighted by their first 2 albums when reforming, All Hell Breaks Loose and The Antichrist. I like their newest one though, Mike's alcohol addiction was showing even through their music since after 2015 and his replacement is a young talented guy, he shreds as much as Mike did but he can do solos, which Mike couldn't do very well since 10 years, so many guest guitarists for leads in those albums post 2005, their last great album was that one from 2005. It's crazy the list of thrash bands who have high quality records but you and I were too young to know about, nothing wrong with discovering older metal and getting into it. That's why it doesn't matter if things are stagnating a bit as of now, get that top 150 best thrash albums list that goes around since a decade...3/4 of the bands in there are worth knowing about, most are disbanded, but there are bands whose classics are even obscured despite the quality of the music and musicians, for example Sadus (before they reformed in the 2000's, they are not anything like they were in the early 90's).
@@eenpersoon2881 Probably their best song ever, at least after the last LP from 1990, yep, I like when Schmier's has hearable basslines and his in that one is perfect.
One thing you should have added for criteria is who acceptable the songs are to non metal fans that is a big one because if you can not not reach your core audience but then reach people outside that’s when you know it’s important.
Metalcore and deathcore both have the metal kind and the hardcore kind. If that’s the rationale for having grindcore, then metalcore and deathcore 100% need to be included. Especially deathcore is so far removed from hardcore that most people get it confused with death metal. Metalcore was also the last heavy genre that was mainstream in modern times.
1) Classic. Well duh, it laid the musical framework. Also the father of power and symphonic metal, with classical music influences. 2) Hardcore punk. Not a metal genre, but helped spawned thrash, speed, death, black, sludge, grindcore and the metalcore stuff 3) Glam metal. Influenced the snazzy fashion of nu metal and metalcore. As well as the general metalhead look 4) Prog. Influenced mathcore, metalcore, death metal and modern metal with time signatures, solos and experimental styles. 5) Black. Fashion and iconography, yes. But only its vocals have been carried onto other metal subgenres. LEAST INFLUENTIAL: Nu. Some bands name Slipknot, Korn, SOAD, Deftones, Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit as "influences", but no-one has tried to fully imitate them. Nu metal is stuck in its own time bubble. It lacks black's scary image and interest in occult and paganism, death's brutality & musicality, prog's technique, classic's reputation nor thrash's loyal fanbase. In fact, metalcore & deathcore are more "metal" than nu. When the last nu metal band disbands, the subgenre will collapse like English grebo rock from the 80s.
You are very right about there being too many subgenres. I feel like when the subgenres were first emerging, it was kind of exciting, but one of the reasons I have so much trouble getting into newer metal (and at my age newer means stuff that came out some point after the 2000s), is the way subgenres both proliferated and crystalized (I find it was the early days of those genres forming that is more interesting than after they have developed)
I'll die on the hill of classic metal. It is only dated because it progressed insanely fast. They went from sabbath doing spooky blues, to sabbath detuning down to C# on master of reality, priest picking up speed on stained class, motorhead amping it up, venom starting black metal, then thrash shows up and in 2 years you get death metal starting. Within 15 years they went from the first sabbath album to possessed seven churches
I think you also have to define "influential/important" in terms of what the genre had an influence on- culture outside of metal or within metal. Cuz within metal, the greatest influence is probably classic metal because it started it all. But influence of things outside of metal might have a different answer.
Obituary holds up great. When Death Metal first came out, I remember the sense of power it had and also recall thinking how can the genre get any heavier. I think in a lot of ways, metal peaked with the Death
Thrash is certainly the most important in my eyes. I grew up on Metallica and Slayer, still love a lot of their early stuff today... However, I will never understand the infatuation so many people have nowadays with Nu Metal.. don't get me wrong, I listened to a lot of those bands mentioned in the video too, definitely gateway bands to way better versions of metal too - but I was over Nu Metal before I got out of high school lol. None of it has really aged well and all of those bands that were popular then, were pretty well washed up by like 2005. In terms of popularity, mass appeal and for its gateway elements, Nu Metal is good for that I suppose. Does that make it important though? I'm not so sure about that. By contrast, Death Metal has been around for nearly 40 years and has never really faded, lost touch with what it is and has been arguably the most consistently great genre of metal, since it's inception - for me anyway. I started listening to Death Metal in my late teens and haven't really stopped since, literally half my lifetime I've spent enjoying this music, on a day to day basis. If it were my bracket, Death Metal wins hands down, because it's basically Thrash, but better in every conceivable way. The sheer amount of subgenres that exist because of Death Metal says it all, compared to subgenres that were started because of Thrash or Nu Metal (are there really ANY subgenres of Nu Metal?): Tech Death Melo Death Death Grind Death Doom Progressive Death Blackened Death Atmospheric Death Avant-Garde Death Death'n'Roll Cavernous Death Brutal Death Slam Deathcore With all that in mind, in terms of importance to music now, it seems obvious to me which genre is most important. Hell, look at all the OSDM revivalists bands that are killing it today, harkening back to the sounds created in the early 90s: Blood Incantation Undeath Tomb Mold Outer Heaven Necrot 200 Stab Wounds Sanguisugabogg Gatecreeper Phobophilic Frozen Soul Fuming Mouth Altars The list goes on and on, but you see my point here. None of those bands exist today, without the pioneering bands of the late 80s and early 90s. The influence is undeniable. Thrash had it's time in the 80s and fizzled out around the time Death Metal and Grunge were gaining traction. Nu Metal had it's heyday between '94 - '04 and again, fell out of favor pretty quickly and all of those bands are garbage today. You could make a solid argument that most of the legacy bands of Death Metal are still making quality music today. The same cannot be said for the legacy bands of Thrash and Nu Metal, I don't think that's even up for debate - and that right there, should tell you all you need to know about how important Death Metal truly is to today's metal culture... That said, you don't get Death Metal, without Thrash - so I understand Thrash being that important as well.. for me though, Death Metal wins by just a nose for its longevity and persistence throughout the years.
IMO, Nu metal should win because if it wasn't for Nu metal the whole metal genre would have gone the way of jazz as a "dead" music genre reserved only for die-hard fans and hipsters. By bringing in influences from other genres it invited others from outside metal into the party, and there's a similar trend going on right now. Also, who even plays Thrash these days? Sure there are influences and it was an important phase in metal history, but it's not relevant as a genre anymore.
Death Metal is the best, but Thrash is the most important and by a long shot. Without thrash, Death, Black, Nu, Groove and everything inbetween or adjacent don't exist.
Do agree with thrash being number 1. Right now it looks like numetal is close, but we are in the middle of 90s nostalgia. 80s nostalgia ended but nearly everyone lost it when slayer announced a return for festival dates and metallica is still selling out stadiums.
Power metal should have fought with Classic metal in the first round. So sad to see the foundations just disregarded straight off the bat. Death metal vs Nu metal a much fairer comparison, especially when you introduce merchandise etc.
The best type of Metal is actually somewhere between Classic and Power - for instance the US Power Metal scene of the mid to late 80s. I enjoy stuff like Helloween and Rhapsody but I'm surprised that's more popular than US Power like Iced Earth and Nevermore.
Not much in common with most metal tbf. To me obscure Noise and Hardcore is way darker and heavier than any Metal genre and Im a metalhead myself. But metal doesnt usually get as disturbing and experimental as Noise.
My fav Japaboise record is Instrunents Disorder by the Gerogerigegege. Its so harsh a minute feels like 5. Thats how overwelmingly brutal it is it literally warps your time perception with the rythm and feedback.
FYI meshuggah did heading that European festival so significantly more people. Not sure if that counts and they also had that headline tour in 2022 I believe
Finn, I've heard alot of people say Metalcore/Deathcore is not metal, and for the life of me, I can't understand why they say that. Can you make a video on what the difference is?
Core likes to abuse chugs, blast beats and breakdowns, whilst most "normal" metal focuses on solos and riffs. And emo, nu metal and alt rock uses screaming and growling to some degree (Alexisonfire & Underoath use it heavily, but they're still emo).
As much as I am more of a fan of metalcore and deathcore in the realm of more metal leaning ends of things, when they deliberately have core referring to their influence from hardcore, whether they directly do or not, they shouldn’t be classed as metal. I’m a hardcore kid, I love metalcore and deathcore with all my heart, but they’re on this end of the scene.
Because it's like grindcore: you're essentially grafting metal (often melodic death metal/'Gothenburg sound') elements on to a hardcore (punk) 'skeleton'. Granted, by the time you get to metalcore and especially deathcore, the metal elements are prevalent, and the hardcore punk 'skeleton' is hardly noticeable, but it's still there. It's the same reason we refer to sludge metal (which is basically the other way around, you're grafting hardcore punk elements onto a doom metal 'skeleton') as sludge *metal* , and not 'sludge*core*', even though many sludge bands actually come from more of a hardcore background or scene- remember reading an interview with Mike IX Williams where he said "we're basically a punk band that likes Black Sabbath, Trouble and St. Vitus", which really sums it up.
@@goner.9989this. Like thrashcore and grindcore, metalcore and deathcore have metal elements grafted onto a hardcore punk base. Not diminishing either type of music from being heavy or having good songs, it's just...coming from a different origin, musically speaking.
Oh, I so much agree with you. Core genres are derivatives of Hardcore Punk. There can be metal influence but it is at its core , no pun intended, a punk genre
Thrash vs. Prog is like fighting Alex Pereira and losing but not getting KO'd and also looking competitive at times, but still not enough to win. Nu metal vs. Thrash in the final is the most expected result though. I'm guessing the MMA equivalent of that is a prime GSP vs. a prime Anderson Silva.
Check out my RUclips coaching program: www.finnmckenty.com/work-with-me
Nü metal aka the mortgage payer
Every power metal song I’m waiting for them to say “go go power rangers”
There's a lot of darker power metal too, it's not all happy happy joy joy. Try some Persuader, they're pretty badass.
Unironically great song! Also the 90s X-Men intro song shreds af. Rod Wasserman made both.
Powerglove literally has it on one of their albums
Punk rock factory covers the power rangers theme song, they’re great 😊
Your ability to make so many videos out of one topic is truly a talent. I watch & enjoy them all. I look forward to seeing your 1,000th video on the state of nu-metal, 10 years from now
Trust me man, I’m sick of it. But my audience hates when I do anything outside of this niche so I’m not really sure what to do
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA not everyone hates it there must be at least a minority that appreciates a new topic.
Prog is by definition the most important music. Not popular, not particularly good, but very important.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA personally, I don’t mind genre/topic changes between videos, but I totally understand your predicament due to how the RUclips algorithm works and that sort of stuff. You’re one of my trusty music RUclipsrs to start my mornings off in a good mood.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA You can do videos about anything that happened within the world of rock between 1978 and 2010. Anything beyond that…we don’t care. In fact, it would be crazy diddy creepy if we did. Depressing, but it is what it is. I can’t make myself care about stuff that appeals to whippersnappers. The stuff that neopunkfm covers…for example…just too childish and internet oriented.
You forgot about post prog ambient blackened atmospheric brutal technical death metal
Name 3 bands 😂
You want some good ambient listen to the full metal jacket film score by Kubrick’s daughter.
@@lubitz161 Blink 182, Sum 41, NFG.
@@playtime20214 Sum 41 is clearly technical atmospheric brutal ambient deathened black metal! 😤
Ah yes, it’s so brutal and technical that the speed results in looping back to somehow being atmospheric
If Metal was a tree Classic Metal is the trunk.
Classic metal sounds dated, sure, but they invented the entire concept of metal and heavy guitar music, downtuning, shred and even the aesthetics, the "evilness". The "horns" is probably the most influential symbol in all popular music and considering all of this list, I think not even the most modern Spiritbox type of band can escape the fact that classic metal was the foundation
Blues, surf rock, and hard rock would be the seed
Fair
@@sickfitz4256Rock and surf like The Beatles and The Beach Boys, respectively, would be the roots. Now, the blues and jazz would be the seed
@@deathring7339 Nah man, all those things made up the classic metal tree... thrash was the crazy whirly-bird type seed that flew away and planted a whole new forest. The first form of rock to totally ditch its roots.
The most important genre is probably "classic metal" since that is the one that made the most money and provided a platform for all of the other sub-genres to exist.
“Classic metal” did not make that much money. Hair metal did
I understand why everyone is saying nü metal but I'd argue hair metal was more important for the same reason. It showed the industry that heavy music could be commercially viable on a large scale.
I've always felt Hair Metal and Nu Metal were distant sonic and cultural cousins of each other, separated by about 20 years
To the same point, I’ve always thought hair metal and grunge are just two siblings that don’t get along
Indeed - "hair metal" was bigger than "nu metal'.
Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Poison, Whitesnake, Skid Row, Heart. All MASSIVE in the 80s.
@@VampireJack10and Guns N Roses as well.
@@ChristopherJames1993 yup, GnR too. Although many don't consider them to be hair metal per se.
Saying Core isn’t metal is like saying Killswitch isn’t metal
Thrash is my favorite subgenre for many reasons. Theres an endless list of bands to discover, there's bands that sound different strictly based on their vocal style, each scene has its own take on it, the album cover art tends to be awesome, the feeling you get from hearing a solid riff that adds a second guitar on top of the first one
Agreed, ever seen that top 150 thrash metal albums list? I modified/elongated it a little to my own tastes, but the basics is, a lot of thrash bands came and went, leaving amazing music not many have heard, like say Atrophy, just 2 albums, but holy fuck are they good.
As someone who's been watching your videos for several years now, I think this might be one of your most fair and objective videos so far. Even though it's all for fun, you brought up so many important factors on each genre that it really allows you to see both sides of each matchup
My issue with Nu Metal beating Classic Metal in terms of importance is that, while Nu Metal probably is more directly influential to metal now, Classic metal influenced the genre (well, created it) at a time when metal was much, much more influential as a whole. Classic Metal directly influenced bands like Metallica which is a household name. Nu Metal influences bands that, respectfully, the vast majority of people have never heard of and probably will never hear about. In 40 years time, the bands that classic metal influenced will be remembered, the ones that Nu Metal influenced probably will not, at least they won't if current trends continue.
Did not expect that ending but I respect it and appreciate it!
Papa Finns Rough Metal Genre Guide
The production on images and words is absolutely insane for 1992. It sounds better than most modern records imo. And those drums 😩
the existence of nu metal still feels like a fever dream. nu metal is one of the most recent metal subgenres, but the impact it has to this day is massive
The jump from classic metal like dio iron maiden priest sabbath etc to thrash is enormous. The guitar tone, speed of the drumming, the riff style and lyrical content being so dark its such a huge leap
If you really look at both musical and cultural dimension of bands such as Korn, Limp Bizkit, Slipknot, Linkin Park, SOAD, Deftones, Evanescence, the genre legacy and it's lasting impact on several generations, I think it's fair to say that overall Nü Metal is bigger than Thrash.
My favorite subgenre of metal music is "heavy" :)
Glam 🤟💅
I love you Finn. Thank you so much for making me smile after a long day. God bless you
On classic sounding 'rocky', I really think one of the reasons modern metal sounds so stale, with some exceptions, is it stripped out so much blues and rock influence that it became kind of rigid
I absolutely agree that modern metal sounds stale, especially with the overuse of "djent" and extremely formulaic production methods. However, blues and rock oriented guitar playing became stale, too. There were only so many riffs or melodies you could write in the pentatonic scale, unfortunately. I think modern metal's predicament is that there are metal bands doing new things, but they're too weird. I love experimental black and death metal that uses bizarre scales and all kinds of dissonance (which is still pretty inventive), but I recognize it's far too angular to ever be popular. Then, on the other end, artists like Sleep Token or Poppy make occasionally heavy music that is accessible but feels a bit too distant from what metal started as.
This was really long, sorry, lmao. I guess my point was that bands are kinda damned if they do, damned if they don't
@@AgainstTheeWickedlyMusic I don't think blues or rock being stale has a lot to do with metal's situation though (that is a whole separate discussion, worth having but too big for me to get into here). The point is, metal spends too much time avoiding rock and blues sounds, which would add much needed tones it is now sorely lacking. Maybe the blues got stale, but the blues in the hands of Iron Maiden wasn't stale when they were putting out albums like the Seventh Son, because it had some of those blues elements but also had a lot of other elements like classical in there. These days I would much rather listen to a metal band whose sound is all over the map and not strictly confined to a narrow subgenre than one following a narrow path of sound
@Bedrockbrendan I agree with what you said about Maiden, they did use those sounds well. And I will say, too, if you do still want blues and rock influence in your metal, doom metal, stoner metal, and sludge metal all take a lot of influence from blues and psychedelic rock. (Though, I will say I vastly prefer the gothic/melodic side of doom, and the noisy kind of sludge.) Unfortunately, a good chunk of them just sound like Black Sabbath knockoffs, and I think that's maybe part of the issue with that playing style. The classic metal bands used that sound so well that new bands just sound like they're copying them if they do. Which cycles back to why bands are stuck, cause they either sound generic for playing somewhat dated, traditional metal riffs, or generic in a modern sense for copying Architects or Periphery
@@Bedrockbrendan I do completely agree with what you said about bands mixing styles together, though, cause that's also what I prefer these days
@@AgainstTheeWickedlyMusic This is one of the reasons I always liked early Doom. There is value in going back to classic stuff like sabbath and deep purple. It can get old though if that is all band does
I wonder what finn's vhs collection looks like.
Now I can safely play Lorna Shore without my family complaining about me playing metal (because core isn’t metal)
Thrash because it injected speed and aggression and paved the way for the ultimate form of metal: death
But thrash bands wouldn't of been the way they were without the new wave of brittish heavy metal, Maiden and Priest were massive influences on bands like Metallica and Exodus
@@nemesis8626 True also, but for future influence its trash. All extreme metal spew from it.
I think you mean VENOM....
@@nemesis8626and Motorhead as well.
Agree with this take. When you look at the big four of the US and also factor in bands like Sodom, Destruction and Kreator, it's kinda hard to argue that thrash isn't the king.
yeah, like if we made a bracket of all your content, brackets would probably go head to head in the final match up, and lose to the S tier that is tier lists.[Id also love to see a bracket of core genres too honestly]
Lol that reminds me of the alignment chart of alignment charts, where alignment charts are neutral neutral
Metalcore and deathcore are like 80percent metal , 15 percent core and 5 percent other. As such should def be included when the winner ( and correctly so ) genre of Thrash contains a higher percentage of core by at least 8 percent . I’ve compiled these numbers just from memory , my own perspective and comprehension of the clear differences between the genres , but if tasked to do so could come up with the raw data to support my claim.
Of course classic metal is the most important as it started it all.
And it's also the best! ❤ There's no way any metal after classic metal features such iconic songs like:
"War Pigs"
"Heaven and Hell"
"Hallowed be thy Name"
"Children of the damned"
"Breaking the law"
"You've got another thing coming"
Etc etc.
It's clearly technical-brutal-black metal.
Uh, excuse me, it's brutal technical black metal.
My apologies, sir.
As someone who loves power metal, and considers the genre to be one of my favs, I am self aware enough to know that it really bears 0 influence/importance on music/metal at large.
I just love cheeseball music about battles and dragons. I'm just a big nerd.
The truth is that Power Metal will fall off in the future because today's kids are into other kinds of Metal.
@@hulluporo9067 maybe in some way, but as long as there are EU metal festivals, it'll be around for a long time.
Sabaton disagrees
Thrash for sure, it was the first version of rock that used intervals completely unrelated to its roots. Its integration into other forms of music pretty much killed blues-based rock in a matter of years. While grunge might be the dividing line between classic rock and almost everything after, it started with thrash.
Great point! Wish i had thought of it 😅
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA I'm not even that much of a metal head, but as far as I'm concerned the two defining moments in rock evolution were Robert Johnson, and Thrash. Everything else was a blend of pre-existing elements.
Every morning I'm watching your videos! Thank you Uncle Finn!
The thing with grindcore vs. metalcore is that as long as adding the “core” to anything makes it just as if not more inaccesible, then it’s metal, but if it makes it more appealing to broader audience, it’s clearly not.
The gatekeepy metalhead’s worst nightmare is HIS kind of music being listened to by women and nuch of high schoolers.
Finnigan “If it doesn’t sell albums the music automatically sucks” McKenty
Well, we're talking about which metal subgenre is the most important, so album sales are pretty significant.
@@dominikaksiazek7177 concealing fate by tesseract didn’t sell a whole bunch of albums and it’s considered one of the best albums in prog metal today
@@Jakereisman11111”we’re not talking about what’s good, we’re talking about what’s important”
Another amazing video Finn.
There is a difference in importance vs influence. Video was done more with taking influence as more important than anything else.
Thrash Metal, Power Metal, Black Metal & Death Metal for the most important sub genre of Heavy Metal.
D.R.I. was sometimes called "metalcore" back in the 80's
Crossover thrash?
@dimitrije018 Eventually, yeah. Just remember them being the first time I heard the term "Metal core"
Best example is the intro guy saying it at the beginning of their "Live at the Ritz" video
@@leftymcnally6913i always think crossover thrash is just basically proto metalcore except much more thrash metal influenced.
Yeah, both crossover thrash and metalcore was used in the 80's, in Canada, Sacrifice was described as metalcore by some people, the name is older than Converge strangely enough, but crossover thrash or just crossover is the main label for their stuff. Check out Dead Horse, that was another great Crossover band, or Cryptic Slaughter. Agnostic Front even went there with the Cause For Alarm LP, some songs were co-written by the main guitarist from Carnivore heh, they toned it a bit down with Liberty And Justice For... but it was still Crossover imo. The Eliminator is the best song they made from that phase of theirs.
@@severed111 Deadhorse... don't see them mentioned too often. I used to listen to Peaceful Death & Pretty Flowers quite a lot.
Thrash 'till Death said a little German band called Destruction when reuniting and better than ever in the year fucking 2000.
Destruction is just a band for boomers right now.
@@hulluporo9067 Yeah, no. Not to people who discovered them when they were 22 like me. But yes, their return is highlighted by their first 2 albums when reforming, All Hell Breaks Loose and The Antichrist.
I like their newest one though, Mike's alcohol addiction was showing even through their music since after 2015 and his replacement is a young talented guy, he shreds as much as Mike did but he can do solos, which Mike couldn't do very well since 10 years, so many guest guitarists for leads in those albums post 2005, their last great album was that one from 2005.
It's crazy the list of thrash bands who have high quality records but you and I were too young to know about, nothing wrong with discovering older metal and getting into it. That's why it doesn't matter if things are stagnating a bit as of now, get that top 150 best thrash albums list that goes around since a decade...3/4 of the bands in there are worth knowing about, most are disbanded, but there are bands whose classics are even obscured despite the quality of the music and musicians, for example Sadus (before they reformed in the 2000's, they are not anything like they were in the early 90's).
I love that song Nailed to the Cross👌🏻
@@eenpersoon2881 Probably their best song ever, at least after the last LP from 1990, yep, I like when Schmier's has hearable basslines and his in that one is perfect.
@@hulluporo9067 there's no way anyone above the age of 18 would think like this unironically
The End Complete end riff is one of my favorite riffs of my whole life
Remember, Metallica is the only band to have played on every continent including Antarctica. That shows how important of a genre thrash is
Have we had a video on which genre of metal has the best drip?
One thing you should have added for criteria is who acceptable the songs are to non metal fans that is a big one because if you can not not reach your core audience but then reach people outside that’s when you know it’s important.
love the font colors for real!
I dig power metal, but the close genre next to it called speed metal was waaay more influential. Paved the way for thrash too!
Shout out to Grand Seiko at @8:56 - the most beautiful watch in the world.
Metal core is punk at the very ends of its limits.
Punk metal
This is about what I expect from Finn. Love his ability to analyze a musical genre and disagree with just about all his musical opinions.
At very beginning.. I'm gonna predict Nu vs. Thrash in finals (w/ Nu winning)
tha was close
I love Finn but I’m tired him nor his twitch chat not ever bringing up BTBAM for prog metal examples. It’s criminal 😢
Metalcore and deathcore both have the metal kind and the hardcore kind. If that’s the rationale for having grindcore, then metalcore and deathcore 100% need to be included. Especially deathcore is so far removed from hardcore that most people get it confused with death metal. Metalcore was also the last heavy genre that was mainstream in modern times.
You need to stop grinding nu metal. It's 3/10 and every other genre is better.
Behemoth are also a massive band
Pittin prog against grind is like making me choose a favorite child 😭
1) Classic. Well duh, it laid the musical framework. Also the father of power and symphonic metal, with classical music influences.
2) Hardcore punk. Not a metal genre, but helped spawned thrash, speed, death, black, sludge, grindcore and the metalcore stuff
3) Glam metal. Influenced the snazzy fashion of nu metal and metalcore. As well as the general metalhead look
4) Prog. Influenced mathcore, metalcore, death metal and modern metal with time signatures, solos and experimental styles.
5) Black. Fashion and iconography, yes. But only its vocals have been carried onto other metal subgenres.
LEAST INFLUENTIAL: Nu. Some bands name Slipknot, Korn, SOAD, Deftones, Linkin Park and Limp Bizkit as "influences", but no-one has tried to fully imitate them. Nu metal is stuck in its own time bubble. It lacks black's scary image and interest in occult and paganism, death's brutality & musicality, prog's technique, classic's reputation nor thrash's loyal fanbase. In fact, metalcore & deathcore are more "metal" than nu. When the last nu metal band disbands, the subgenre will collapse like English grebo rock from the 80s.
You are very right about there being too many subgenres. I feel like when the subgenres were first emerging, it was kind of exciting, but one of the reasons I have so much trouble getting into newer metal (and at my age newer means stuff that came out some point after the 2000s), is the way subgenres both proliferated and crystalized (I find it was the early days of those genres forming that is more interesting than after they have developed)
I gave u a thumb up just for Suffocation reference😊
I want to pick Prog over thrash because I’m truly a Prog-head, but even Meshuggah basically started off sounding like Metallica.
Finn Mckenty be like:
"Alright guys, without a doubt the most important subgenre of metal is *PERIPHERY* "
I love it when my PR MBA and mma RUclips collides
Biggest L take is not considering Deathcore and Metalcore as metal. 😂😂😂. They sure ain't Punk..... lol
Subtle Grand Seiko flex.
I'll die on the hill of classic metal. It is only dated because it progressed insanely fast. They went from sabbath doing spooky blues, to sabbath detuning down to C# on master of reality, priest picking up speed on stained class, motorhead amping it up, venom starting black metal, then thrash shows up and in 2 years you get death metal starting. Within 15 years they went from the first sabbath album to possessed seven churches
I think you also have to define "influential/important" in terms of what the genre had an influence on- culture outside of metal or within metal. Cuz within metal, the greatest influence is probably classic metal because it started it all. But influence of things outside of metal might have a different answer.
Obituary holds up great. When Death Metal first came out, I remember the sense of power it had and also recall thinking how can the genre get any heavier. I think in a lot of ways, metal peaked with the Death
That grindcore song sounds like angry Rottweilers 😂
Is Finn getting into watches?
I’m seeing lots of watch RUclips video suggestions for him?
Thrash is certainly the most important in my eyes. I grew up on Metallica and Slayer, still love a lot of their early stuff today...
However, I will never understand the infatuation so many people have nowadays with Nu Metal.. don't get me wrong, I listened to a lot of those bands mentioned in the video too, definitely gateway bands to way better versions of metal too - but I was over Nu Metal before I got out of high school lol. None of it has really aged well and all of those bands that were popular then, were pretty well washed up by like 2005. In terms of popularity, mass appeal and for its gateway elements, Nu Metal is good for that I suppose. Does that make it important though? I'm not so sure about that.
By contrast, Death Metal has been around for nearly 40 years and has never really faded, lost touch with what it is and has been arguably the most consistently great genre of metal, since it's inception - for me anyway. I started listening to Death Metal in my late teens and haven't really stopped since, literally half my lifetime I've spent enjoying this music, on a day to day basis. If it were my bracket, Death Metal wins hands down, because it's basically Thrash, but better in every conceivable way. The sheer amount of subgenres that exist because of Death Metal says it all, compared to subgenres that were started because of Thrash or Nu Metal (are there really ANY subgenres of Nu Metal?):
Tech Death
Melo Death
Death Grind
Death Doom
Progressive Death
Blackened Death
Atmospheric Death
Avant-Garde Death
Death'n'Roll
Cavernous Death
Brutal Death
Slam
Deathcore
With all that in mind, in terms of importance to music now, it seems obvious to me which genre is most important. Hell, look at all the OSDM revivalists bands that are killing it today, harkening back to the sounds created in the early 90s:
Blood Incantation
Undeath
Tomb Mold
Outer Heaven
Necrot
200 Stab Wounds
Sanguisugabogg
Gatecreeper
Phobophilic
Frozen Soul
Fuming Mouth
Altars
The list goes on and on, but you see my point here. None of those bands exist today, without the pioneering bands of the late 80s and early 90s. The influence is undeniable. Thrash had it's time in the 80s and fizzled out around the time Death Metal and Grunge were gaining traction. Nu Metal had it's heyday between '94 - '04 and again, fell out of favor pretty quickly and all of those bands are garbage today. You could make a solid argument that most of the legacy bands of Death Metal are still making quality music today. The same cannot be said for the legacy bands of Thrash and Nu Metal, I don't think that's even up for debate - and that right there, should tell you all you need to know about how important Death Metal truly is to today's metal culture...
That said, you don't get Death Metal, without Thrash - so I understand Thrash being that important as well.. for me though, Death Metal wins by just a nose for its longevity and persistence throughout the years.
IMO, Nu metal should win because if it wasn't for Nu metal the whole metal genre would have gone the way of jazz as a "dead" music genre reserved only for die-hard fans and hipsters. By bringing in influences from other genres it invited others from outside metal into the party, and there's a similar trend going on right now. Also, who even plays Thrash these days? Sure there are influences and it was an important phase in metal history, but it's not relevant as a genre anymore.
Hair metal for me and it's not even close. Love that Sweden has been keeping the genre alive with a heavier and more punk approach.
Death Metal is the best, but Thrash is the most important and by a long shot. Without thrash, Death, Black, Nu, Groove and everything inbetween or adjacent don't exist.
Good old Obituary
We all knew the answer before the video started . . but you still made it interesting and a fun listen.
Have you ever discussed the band (Hed) p.e. in your videos? If so which video(s)
no groove metal? That's the most important subgenre of all time,
Groove influenced both nu metal music AND fashion. Well, that's Finn for you
“Prog vs grind, which is more influential?”
Shows James Labrie with a Napalm Death T-Shirt
Without thrash, no death metal, nu metal, crossover.
Do agree with thrash being number 1. Right now it looks like numetal is close, but we are in the middle of 90s nostalgia. 80s nostalgia ended but nearly everyone lost it when slayer announced a return for festival dates and metallica is still selling out stadiums.
Power metal should have fought with Classic metal in the first round. So sad to see the foundations just disregarded straight off the bat. Death metal vs Nu metal a much fairer comparison, especially when you introduce merchandise etc.
The best type of Metal is actually somewhere between Classic and Power - for instance the US Power Metal scene of the mid to late 80s.
I enjoy stuff like Helloween and Rhapsody but I'm surprised that's more popular than US Power like Iced Earth and Nevermore.
Metalcore and deathcore are more metal than nu metal.
+1
Amen
eh, metalcore has a metal variation at least, same can't be said for the other two.
-2.
LOL
clasic
power
power
POWER
thrash
thrash
prog
Great video
Japanese noisecore is the obscure of metal iceberg.
Don't call Japanese Hardcore Japcore
Not much in common with most metal tbf. To me obscure Noise and Hardcore is way darker and heavier than any Metal genre and Im a metalhead myself. But metal doesnt usually get as disturbing and experimental as Noise.
My fav Japaboise record is Instrunents Disorder by the Gerogerigegege. Its so harsh a minute feels like 5. Thats how overwelmingly brutal it is it literally warps your time perception with the rythm and feedback.
@@CodyCockyote7046 Will check em out. Hope you got the reference though 🤣
@@severed111 I read ur original comment somewhere but I cant put where you got the reference hahahaha
Nu metal over classic as far as importance! Wow, this guy stupidity and ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
90’s Death metal… although it is a product of 80s thrash… it has changed everything for the past 25 years!
Bradley Hall is gonna love this one 🤘 A metal vid from Finn! let's GO. 👊
Pop punk, groove metal or Killswitch-era metalcore
Thrash is like a fireworks. It goes high and then splinter into many things like Death, Black, and many other genre of metal.
1:05 my guess is the final two will be thrash and nu
Metal core is more metal than nu metal. Nu-metal is just slightly more angsty bro-rock
FYI meshuggah did heading that European festival so significantly more people. Not sure if that counts and they also had that headline tour in 2022 I believe
European here, power metal is cool and it was kind of my gateway to metal, but death metal is ten times more important.
Also, Finn saying multiple times "there wouldn't be X without Y" to justify Y winning, after kicking out classic metal in the first round.
Where do you put bands like Converge or Zao if there's no core?
Those are hardcore bands not metal
Was industrial metal not important at all?
Finn, I've heard alot of people say Metalcore/Deathcore is not metal, and for the life of me, I can't understand why they say that. Can you make a video on what the difference is?
Core likes to abuse chugs, blast beats and breakdowns, whilst most "normal" metal focuses on solos and riffs. And emo, nu metal and alt rock uses screaming and growling to some degree (Alexisonfire & Underoath use it heavily, but they're still emo).
As much as I am more of a fan of metalcore and deathcore in the realm of more metal leaning ends of things, when they deliberately have core referring to their influence from hardcore, whether they directly do or not, they shouldn’t be classed as metal. I’m a hardcore kid, I love metalcore and deathcore with all my heart, but they’re on this end of the scene.
It's because people associate that subgenre with 2008-2013 and haven't even listened to Converge or Dillinger Escape Plan
Because it's like grindcore: you're essentially grafting metal (often melodic death metal/'Gothenburg sound') elements on to a hardcore (punk) 'skeleton'.
Granted, by the time you get to metalcore and especially deathcore, the metal elements are prevalent, and the hardcore punk 'skeleton' is hardly noticeable, but it's still there.
It's the same reason we refer to sludge metal (which is basically the other way around, you're grafting hardcore punk elements onto a doom metal 'skeleton') as sludge *metal* , and not 'sludge*core*', even though many sludge bands actually come from more of a hardcore background or scene- remember reading an interview with Mike IX Williams where he said "we're basically a punk band that likes Black Sabbath, Trouble and St. Vitus", which really sums it up.
@@goner.9989this.
Like thrashcore and grindcore, metalcore and deathcore have metal elements grafted onto a hardcore punk base.
Not diminishing either type of music from being heavy or having good songs, it's just...coming from a different origin, musically speaking.
Probably the only Finn Mckenty video that I didn’t disagree with him
Oh, I so much agree with you. Core genres are derivatives of Hardcore Punk. There can be metal influence but it is at its core , no pun intended, a punk genre
You were so right on the prog popularity lol, periphery is playing here on a Wednesday night.
Thrash vs. Prog is like fighting Alex Pereira and losing but not getting KO'd and also looking competitive at times, but still not enough to win. Nu metal vs. Thrash in the final is the most expected result though. I'm guessing the MMA equivalent of that is a prime GSP vs. a prime Anderson Silva.
Easy, the answer is Death Metal