Excellent video! The effects loop was always a problem with these amps, but then again, I don't like the effects loops on most amps, including a Boogie I owned for years. I tried a Dumble Overdrive Special at a small shop in Los Angeles around '87. The amp's owner just wanted to show the thing off to the shop owner who offered to pay him about ten grand, which he refused. I played through it with an LP Standard and sure enough, it was loud, proud, and very clear. Great amp, but I think there are so many great Dumble alternatives that there's no reason to take out a mortgage to buy a Dumble. Two-Rock, Fuchs, and a number of companies are making excellent Dumble style amps. No, they're not cheap, but they sound brilliant.
In theory, you could solve this by simply adding an extra 12AY7 between v2 and the phase inverter so that one of the triodes powers the output to FX and the other powers the FX input to the power amp. From there you can literally just clone the dumbleator circuit straight into the amp and be done with it. Maybe throw on a presence knob a la the SSS so you can find a setting your power amp likes depending on the length of your signal chain.
You are absolutely correct about Dumble getting the effects loop wrong. Not only is it not buffered the signal level coming out of the SEND is way too hot. You can see levels there well over 100 volts P-P. Of course this is contingent to the level of the pre amp volume pot. But if you want that pot set in the sweet spot (5-6) you will have over 100 volts P-P going to your pedal board. That can damage your pedals. Dumble made the level and impedance proprietary so only his Dumblelator would work with his amps.
Again, as said in the video, it was hard to predict how these amps would be used in the field, I don't think he could have (or anyone) could have predicted the pervasiveness of pedals after the preamp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Still standard loop design should be line level even back then. Dumble made it super hot (100 VP-P) so it would only work with his Dumblelator. That’s called proprietary.
Mason good post very logical and makes sense. After watching the You Tube with That Pedal Show and Robben Ford talking about his Dumble... Robben stated that Dumble's house/residence was cluttered with amps guitars, parts, tubes, more guitars and more amp parts- very little places to even walk. So imagining this that Dumble was a parts collector/hoarder and would custom make an amp from parts - how could one ever think he could have the same tone/sound when he was using like parts from different amps where the burn in factor was all probably different to a certain degree. Like where they all would work and sound 'good to greater' than the last amp, but not in that identical factor a lot of folks are wanting these days. Also your explanation of the effects loop in the Dumble amps and how he put it all together - where he had no idea folks would be using is probably right on point. Good Job
Ive got an Overdrive special by Volt Amps in UK , Aston Electronics. He has addressed both these issues , I have an efx loop and built in reverb. The amp is completely hum free and a work of Art .
Hey Mason, fantastic idea to raise the discussion about Dumblelators, or specifically the solid state Kleinulator. I did finally break down and order one from the Rig Doctor website, intended for the loop in my Matchless amp. Here’s my observations. I’ve learned that the Kleinulator wasn’t necessarily designed to be completely transparent. According to designer Mike Klein’s own words, it was intended to mirror the particular colored sound of a certain Dumbleator. Some people allegedly like the darker tone they’re getting from the Kleinulator (or the C-lator, or a D’lator), but I gotta admit I don’t. 1) Using it in the passive loop in my Matchless SC-30 completely changes the character of my amp. Less clarity, less highs, less sparkliness, a duller and darker sound than the amp has in its loop-less mode. The “bright” switches on the Kleinulator, depending on the settings of the rotary dials, either didn’t seem to do very much at all to counteract this, or with some alternative settings made things TOO bright, like unpleasantly brittle, way more than the amp on its own. And there are no shadings. The bright switches are either on or off, there’s no tweakable in-between. 2) Plus I was getting some unwelcome added overdrive from that box, probably from the “Recovery” stage, even at low settings, with a sound I didn’t care for. As if there was some sort of additional, mild but noticeable, woolly overdrive pedal in my signal chain which I had not chosen to be there and which I was not able to dial out. Again, maybe some people LIKE this, perhaps specifically in conjunction with a Dumble-type amp. Who knows. Me, I would want a loop buffer box that stays transparent and doesn’t change the amp’s tone. The Kleinulator DOES change my tone. 3) And then I found myself with yet another problem on my hands. My loop has just a couple of delays placed in it, with a volume pedal in front of them. I need to be able to rock that pedal back and have the amp completely silent. But when running some strong overdrive and boost pedals in front of the amp, bringing the volume pedal all the way back did not completely silence the signal, but some buzzy traces of distortion were always able to poke through. I don’t believe this is the volume pedal’s fault, because that same pedal is able to go down to total zero in scenarios that are not involving the Kleinulator. I do, however, believe that it could be the Kleinulator’s Send/Return or Recovery stage design that maybe allows some kind of cross-talk between components, so even when the volume pedal is at zero a certain amount of signal is still somehow allowed to make its way through the circuitry. I remember a slightly similar case with a MESA Mark III loop, and MESA explained that their Amp Loop is handled by a dedicated tube which does double-duty, but inside the same physical glass bottle, so it’s conceivable that some kind of cross-talk may appear under certain conditions. Maybe the Kleinulator’s behavior is in some ways due to a comparable architecture? Now, to complete the picture, what’s interesting is that when I use a regular pedal buffer, right at the amp’s Loop Send, to drive and buffer the amp loop (instead of using the Kleinulator), all the above shortcomings completely fall away. Even though one would expect that this should be all wrong, the built-in buffer in a lowly BOSS pedal (in bypass mode, but the buffer being always-on) currently seems to handle this task the best (at least with my Matchless, mind you), better than the supposedly purpose-made adjustable Kleinulator. Maybe I’m lucky that the BOSS pedal somehow isn’t actually overtaxed by the electrical levels coming from the amp’s Loop Send. Fact is, I can use the amp’s Send/Return with the BOSS as a buffer and have that sound PRETTY DAMN NEAR identical to running the amp without the loop. The amp sounds transparent, clear, same amp characteristics, same riding the edge of breakup, no loss of highs. And no artificially injected distortion. Full-on volume pedal almost identical to loop-less amp. Rocked-back volume pedal quiet as a mouse. Let it also be said here that various other buffer pedals may or may not achieve similar results, at least for a period of time. But most of the ones I tried (other than the BOSS) ultimately developed certain negative characteristics that were probably due to the fact that they simply were not intended to be used in a loop like that. Of course, what I’m not quite able to maximize when using this pedal buffer scenario is the level matching that a “proper” loop-a-lator box hopes to accomplish. But I’m also able to sidestep the unwanted side effects which I described above. I had been hoping that the tweakable Kleinulator would do a much better job than a BOSS buffer. Unfortunately, for MY needs it is falling short in a number of ways.
@@VertexEffectsInc The solid state Kleinulator is actually what I got. I had my hopes up, but unfortunately it's not transparent, in addition to my other observations above. I may have to keep looking.
“Biggest mistake”… yet Dumble definitely built buffered loops into his amplifiers before … he complained that it was too crammed and was not as happy with the results… hence why he stuck to the rack mounted external devices . “Biggest mistake” …yet he addressed it with his own external device design … Having said all that, this is what you call click bait . Use Dumbles name (the real Doctor !!!) to create a buzz for your own business based off of his designs . One more reason I will never touch any product by Vertex.
I think if he were to have gone solid state, it wouldn't be an issue in terms of space, but I think by the time it would have been necessary to transition a more production line amp to this style of loop (like a Mesa Boogie size brand), he didn't have to. His volume was too small and his amps were desirable to the point where he didn't need to adapt them for a wider audience. You're right, he did have the Dumbleator, but that came much later as a response to the rack gear people started using with their amps and other line level processing. Having a stock passive loop in isolation was pretty unusable for external effects. I also defend possible reasons in the video why Dumble may not have used active effects loop in the video, maybe you didn't stay for that? Also which of my products were mentioned in this video? I don't see any or recall naming something we make.
@@VertexEffectsInc “If he went solid state…” Dumble did not like solid state for his own designs . This was highlighted when “Dr D” was questioned by Henry Kaiser years ago : Kaiser : “what’s the difference between transistors and tubes ? “ Dumble: “well the difference comes down to this …the more fragile harmonics can survive in a vacuum tube , where they seem to be eliminated or squashed in a solid state crystal lattice …” Anyone can spin in circles arguing the physics of it all , or if solid state is more “transparent “ , but “Dr D” had very strong and well known opinions that leaves no room for wondering why he would use tubes in his effects loop… Whereas I admit I have not found the exact historical timeline of the dumbleator, however considering that Henry Kaiser (very early user) was the owner of the first dumbleator I am gonna safely say it wasn’t exactly as you describe as “much later “ when it was developed. Those public access clips were around the mid eighties…the whole “dumble couldn’t have foresaw” rhetoric doesn’t hold water …maybe in 1970…but we are talking a career that was going strong up until his passing this year … beyond that the Klein u lator is essentially a solid state dumbleator clone … just one more variation of the many buffered loops mentioned and found in other amplifiers …literally nothing dumble didn’t address essentially the whole premise of this argument of “how dumble got it wrong” is simply based upon the inconvenience of having a separate unit to deal with besides just the amplifier … in the end all other statements insisting on some sort of negligence are at best a mistaken assumption … “Which one of my products was mentioned in this video?” “Vertex “ in itself is a product . Simultaneously you are presenting yourself as the “Rig Doctor “ guitar gear aficionado supreme …this video is essentially another advertisement for your reputation and services …that’s inarguable …and utilizing Dumble (literally one of the most famous amplifier builders of all time) in a tabloid style headline of “how he got it wrong” in order to demonstrate how you know how to hook up an effects loop is the epitome of click bait… EDIT: the first product mentioned is the vertex collaboration with ceriatone; kleinulator… did you forget that product ? Give me a break Save some face dude , don’t bother replying , ignore me and ride that train to success , just know not everyone is gonna fall for the bs , and some might even speak up about it …good luck
@@charlieplate9687 The pedal people and all the solid state kids....can't grasp that in Tube signal chain...the signal pathway can be pure which means NOT passing through resistance or capacitance......other than the plate coupling capacitor which today is a Film Capacitor & the volume pot as a voltage divider/grid stop resistor, So wide open on the volume control pot is a direct connection of the wiper to input signal and the grid stopper is maximum distance of signal to ground. The coupling capacitor functions as a filter for frequency which it would pass through ! Solid State has signal passing through an ELECTROLYTIC capacitor and thus a WET chemical that is the basis of the electrolytic capacitors as they need a rather high capacitance value....and the construction of the vessel has a VENT HOLE.......So these Solid State people can't grasp that thus a WET CHEMICAL is....SUBJECT...to...EVAPORATION.....a constant state of change and degradation.
Luckily, once you get the Klein dialed in, you won't have to change it as long as the same effects are in the loop. Throw some gaffers tape on the knobs and you'll be set to go. Velcro it on the back of you amp and you're done.
If he’s using an active loop, he’s definitely ahead of the curve amongst his fellow Dumble replica builders. Very wise choice on his end. Thank you for watching!
Great video Mason. I agree with your analysis that Dumble didn’t get it wrong but couldn’t have foreseen the pedalboard monsters that would be conjured up by the rock gods!
Cable length is a factor affecting sound in passive signals (loss of high frequencues), but is negligable for active signals, such as the signal coming from a preamp. The oreamp is basically a buffer and an effect loop that is located after an preamp is by definition active. In addition, the effect loop is commonly used with rack gear with buffers. Opinions are free, but i dont agree that your arguments are valid to call this a mistake ;)
My resolution is that I only use one slap back delay into the front of the amp and nothing else 😂 however I am a pretty traditional player. Interesting video I liked it man.
Yeah, but if i didnt click on this video, id think Dumble may be shit...Im suppose to be using a friends dumble this week, and if we used the fx loop we'd really think he got it wrong...So, in my case? Having the semi negative clickbatty thumbnail, may be what would have ruined my 1st impression of a dumble, i wish my boy was bringing an original burst, but then i may have to kill him and take it lol...Anyway i was thinking the same as you till i checked out the video...you got a point!
I own a Mojave amp and it doesn't use an effects loop, but instead provides a variable line out with power damping. I think this a better design strategy.
I have a Ceriatone 20W D clone, with a passive loop. I also have a Kleinulator -- which I've never used, and now I kinda wonder if I'll ever use it... Thus far I've been happy not using it with the efx I have (right now, I'm using a DL4 MkII delay/reverb). So I think the need for a buffered loop is dependent on what efx unit you're using. BTW I only use time-based efx in the loop. Overdrives and (curiously) the DejaVibe want to be in front of the amp's main input, in my experience. Executive summary: for some efx, or if you don't use any efx in the loop, the passive loop is fine, and a buffered loops is unneeded circuitry. But -- if I could even afford a real D -- it better have a f888ing buffered efx loop
This unit I suggested, the Kleinulator (linked in our description), will work just like it would for the Dumble style circuits. I have no affiliation with any of them but I like the sizes of the Klein.
Yes, to my knowledge they’re all tube-based, not solid state. I think this is more of a consequence of the time that they were designed in that they didn’t involve much subsequently. If you want the most linear response from your time-based effects, there’s certainly no better option than solid state as it will have the least impact on the overall sound and can be made the most transparent. Tubes have an inherent color, which is fine, but for the stuff that you’re putting in your effects loop, it’s not an advisable way to go about it if transparency is paramount.
@@Stashmanfpv I recommend the solid state version (the smaller size one) if possible. Tube is great for the preamp and power amp section - however I find it colors a lot for an effects loop.
Thanks so much for this great video. I own a Ceriatone OTS Lunchbox. I usually have a reverb pedal sitting on top. Because of your insight, I’m going to get an effects loop buffer so I can connect my pedalboard. Great job Doc.
Hi Mason! Couple questions, my amps fx loop has a +4db/-10db level switch. Does that mean that it's buffered? Also what level should I run guitar pedals at in the loop? +4 or -10? Thanks man.
Depends on the amp, this should be on the manufacturers website. Sometimes they just have some attenuation at fixed values to approximate line or instrument. Typically active loops have a volume control on the send and often the return as well, bu there is NO standard on FX loops that why it's so hard to say. In terms of where to set the level, depends on the effects and whether they can accept line or instrument level on their input. +4 is normally pro line level, 0 dB is an normal line level from rackmount guitar pre-amps, -10 dBv is consumer line level, and -20 dBu is around instrument level. Depending on the pedal, it might not be able to take either of those. Again this should be published in your manual for both the pedal and the amp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the info. Unfortunately my amp doesn't have much info attached to it. Its an Artec Tube 5, pretty sure it's a Korean company. All I know is that it's a serial fx loop. I'm using a dispatcher master in the loop for reverb and delay, I'll just run it at -10db. Thanks man! Great vids btw.
@@spacemanspiff9780 thank you for watching...I guess the question is, if you turn off the effect and compare it to removing it all from the loop does the sound change?
@@VertexEffectsInc Not a significant change in tone. But I mounted the pedal on top of my amp and using 2 six inch patch cables for the send and return. Since it's an always on pedal, it doesn't really need to be on my board.
Could you just put your home brew buffer, one patched with a couple inch cable to the send and one to the return of the fx loop? If you can, then you can just dual lock them to the back of the amp.
I think maybe Dumble was misleading by labeling some of the amps Pre-amp out/power-amp in 'effects loop' but I do believe that the intent was to use the Dumbleator. As far as a tube buffer coloring the sound, well everything, solid state or tube, colors the sound. The effects unit used colors the sound as well. The great sound Robben Ford was getting in the 80s was a combo of the amp, Dumbleator and delay unit. Maybe his choice at the time was not as flexible as modern players want these days but I would not call it a mistake.
I'm not sure that he was "misleading" more than just reacting to the conditions that the amp was put in with pedals that weren't part of his original thinking for applications of the amp. I agree that any effects loop will color, however the degree to which it impacts the tone is less going solid state. Robben was relegated to what Dumble had for him at the time, having worked with him extensively over the last 10 years, if there were a better more transparent option, he'd of used it, and hasn't used a Dumbleator quite a long time.
The Fuchs/Plush Verbrator is my favorite of all the “-lators” as it creates a parallel or series loop. Thus, it will act like a regular series tube effects interface, but will also make your loop parallel. I think Fuchs amps have the exact same effects loop as the verbrator. It also has a trim control that boost the return input for some older effects if you need that. The return becomes a mix control in parallel mode. Essentially, parallel mode doesn’t run your entire amp signal through your delay and reverb (or whatever else is in your loop). parallel is much better for me. Series is great for traditional D honk, but the option of parallel is worth whatever Fuchs is charging for the verbrator these days, IMO.
Something like what Fuchs made would be a similar type device to what I recommended and will work great for this application. Andy is a very smart designer so I'm sure he realized this shortcoming in the Dumble amps right away, in particular inside his own amps and including active effects loops.
Soldano tweaked that buffer for his dual channel jet city amps, n sounds waay better than stock dator, check it out, easy tweak, he splits the plate vs the local feedback, and gets the cath follower a tad further from the node..my intellifex is unreal thru that jet city amp, ok in a std D style n dator,
The Dumblator works great he sold an extra device equates to more 💵! He knew it didn't and marketed the rack mount buffer besides hanging an extra tube in there and a few more transformers in an already crowded circuit in the physical confines of the chassis is tight! The guy was brilliant and eccentric! He created a tone it took almost 35 years for someone to copy it! Its easy to say what someone should have done 40 plus years ago. He was an original greatly imitated! Nik at ceriatone is fabulous! Carlton does it best mic the amp and effects post mixed.
Sounds like you align with most of what I said in the video then. I think, with 20/20 hindsight, a solid state loop would have been the way to go. Tube loops aren't that transparent anyway, and I think a big reason why those that convert a amp without a loop to a tube buffered loop don't like it - tubes add a lot of color which isn't really beneficial in the effects loop for your time-based effects and the way we're used to hearing them. I don't think that Dumble could have foreseen the trend of line level rack gear designed for a mix bus to be used in his loops, I think this is why we didn't see the Dumbleator until he was well into his amp building career.
The Dumbelator was an excuse to make more $$$$$$$$$$ I had an ODSR made it has the efx loop and I had the proper Dumblelator made for it and it does not HURT the efx or signal and I use that to Tame the 100 somewhat... That amp was made part for part off #183 and #0060 ODSR reverb as the builder was allowed in both amps he took the smurf out of 183 and made 2 for the owner and he was allowed in 0060 and I requested the verb be put in that amp so its a one off.. I named it the Ultimate Hombre after No country for old men... Its also for sale Im located in Texas we installed the rest of the Dumble known parts in that amp and added better glass and the amp was voiced around my style of playing and the builder used push pull pots too allow the amp to be brighter.. Most ods amps are Dark and you cant get around it so I requested that. If you are in Texas come play them and see.. Ill come meet you and let you play them.... PS I made the wah that you once made and changed the switch and pot and I used to own a real clyde and a 486 and that home made wah kicked their ass so thanks for making that because I went down that rabbit hole and came out with that I also bought a Chase wah which was part for part and when I compared them the CRIDE WAH I made at home killed that pedal also So I asked for a refund which I promptly got back that was kind of the man to refund my cash appreciated .. Now if I could just find a great fuzz after 30 years.....
What if he wanted to make an additional $500 - $1900 sale to an affluent and captive clientele? What if you could find a way to unlock a PAB sound out of the UP or the FET input of the SS, with an additional satellite pedal for the low low low price of $99
I can’t speak to the motivation, but I think it’s likely that he didn’t for see what would happen in the future, I know that there are a few Dumble’s out there now that I’ve researched a little more that did have an effects loop built-in, but it was highly unusual.
No, buffered pedals don't help here. You need to get the buffer basically inside the Amp FX loop, so you need it as close to the source of the FX Send as possible, this is why all those Dumbleators back in the day were usually racked on top of the amp so they could have the shortest cables possible to mitigate any loss due to capacitance on the output of the send, which is ultra sensitive to tone suck. I also don't think the output impedance of that delay pedal is the low so it's not a great line driver either coming back to the return. This is why the Kleinulator or Dumbleator clone is necessary for amps like this so it isolates the impedance of the pedals in the loop and give you a variable level to match the pedals in the loop from instrument (like your pedal) to line level and then compensate for any make up gain on the return volume. Ideally this would be built into your amp, and I think later TS1's actually have a buffered effects loop now standard from Two Rock on this model only. However, if you have an earlier version, you will need a device like this.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks, Mason! You’re right, mine *does* have a tube buffered loop. I will also mention the delay sounds MUCH better through the effects loop than the signal chain. Thanks for the great video.
@@tone_science if you're using any gain on the pedal itself the effects loop is requisite. You never want to have a high gain amp and put a delay before that - for most of us at least. It would be like putting your delay before a distortion pedal.
Hey Mason, great video as always! An unrelated question - Do you have any alternatives for pedal risers that aren't from Fix Pedalboards? I'd love to get some of their pedal risers but living in Asia, the shipping I have to pay through a reseller doesn't really justify the price for me. Thanks!
Hi. I am using a victory sheriff 44. It's a nightmare with fx it distorts reverb/delay it has an fx loop but it not much better. Victory's solution is to minimize the output level of the fx and that doesn't work great either. Do you know of a solution. I was thinking of buying the boss Waza expander and using the fx loop on that, any idea if it would work. Cheers..
You may be able to get away the the Kleinulator - is it a passive loop? Are they using the master volume to attenuate the input volume on the effects send?
I played a dumber modify fender bass man, for me it was almost like connecting the guitar directly to a power amp. I never tried an overdrive special or clone of it. Maybe one day.
No, the buffer for the FX loop needs to be as close to the amp as possible, not on the pedalboard. Also you ideally need a level for the send so you can adjust th e level to around -20 or +4.
Get that sweet power amp distortion, use your pedals, don't go deaf! What's not to like? BTW good tip on the kleinulator, way easier than trying to mod the amp. Cheers!
as I thought we made a Ultra phonic and I requested an efx loop this was before sebago was even starting and they got online and trashed the idea only to start making them with efx loop later.. we did this back in 2013 on a hybrid small special ultra type build.. Its for sale btw if anyone needs a 50 watt with correct loop this one has it and we made this one with el34s/ but it can run 6l6... after this I was able to buy a real Dumble Ultra Phonic I run Reverb and Delay post mic ala Ej and there is the sound. That amp is also for sale search Dumble Vid on YT and it should come up under my name on brave browser. The amp is not smurfed inside nor is the hybrid with proper efx loop ... I cant eat them or sleep on them so they are for sale..
HI DOC I'M AN OLD ITALIAN GUITAR PLAYER AND I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH SOLDANO HR FIFTY + ... FX LOOP WITH DINAMIC AND LOW VOLUME KLEINULATOR IS SOLUTION? TKS Marco
Dumbles amplifiers front end stage has "gain overlap issues". Its best to measure the gain overlap and blocking distortion. How are you measuring the gain overlap and blocking distortion in fender amps and dumble amps?
@@VertexEffectsInc evaluating the dumble circuit design if you're making dumble clones pedals it should react the same. The dumble guitar pedal front end should be very close to how sensitive a dumble amplifier is.
i need so much help when it comes to these subjects...Thankgod for guys like you and youtube....Im starting to realize im happy and probably lucky, with my touch and ear...And my ears tell me if im satisfied with guitar,amp, and o.d maybe a fuzz. pedal, depending on song then go for it.. Running a boost here and there delay, reverb, and tremolo....But mostly just an o.d. pedal and more recently a fuzz for heavy blues....and of course the main thing, tone/volume controls...Nothing against pedals, i just love old guitar sounds from the 60's...I love real anemic, semi fuzzy, lo fi, vintage tones...Anything more then what im using takes away from what im trying to acheive...Then i think im doing something wrong, there was a kid in the studio the other day that sounded amazing and his board had like 15 pedals on it and he was getting those sounds i love, round and round i go...lol..I also get tone def and crazy looking for tones wasting so much time, got rid of a stomp helix, and abunch of high end gear and lost so much money, but my days were being wasted on tone searching, then id turn everything off 10 hrs later and be like aaaahhhhhh there it is, so yeah, im going minimal these days, hence, this upcoming wendsday a friend is bringing me a 61 killer tele and a dumble to use in the studio, so this video may come in handy if we decide to use the fx loop, your a f@#CKIN" genous dude, i cant imagine how one brain can store all this info....I bet your pedals are great, just ordered the boost...any plans on building amps?
imho, the kleinulator sounds sonically better w/fx, jfets n tubes ob sound different, i personally like the fwdness of the jfets....ive ran stereo rigs, n i swanny a cheap solid state combo w/fx rtn, made a much better stereo rig ! More natural imho..LOVE the SSS pedal, man thaz awsm, grt engineering!
Any reasons why using a Passive Effects loops adds More capacitance? you mentioned in the video that passive effect loops has a capacitance issue but what is causing the capacitance issue. I think back in the 70's the outboard rack gear has input and output line level selector switches and also Rolands effects did also, so I'm thinking they worked with only passive effects loops. I personally would want a passive effects loops because if you amplifier is tubes and then the effects loops is Op amps or FETS to buffer the send and return you just ruined you Even harmonics and added odd harmonics from the op amps and FETS. You want to stay true even harmonics which I would use outboard impedance transformers on the send and returns. But since the outboard gear in the 70's and 80's had built in input and output line level selector the front ends had Op amp buffers and FET buffers to be used with Passive Effectors Loops. You didn't mention in the video what guitar pedals would work 100% with Passive effects loops with no problems and which guitar pedals would cause issues and problems with Passive effects loops. This would help learn why some work and others don't with passive effects loops.
Wayne, it's not the loop that adds capacitance. It's that a passive effects loop cannot drive any capacitance on the output without degrading the tone. Every cable has a capacitance, and the more capacitance you use (either by way of longer cables, or higher capacitance cables), the worse it gets and become like a tone control being rolled down on a guitar. Solid state is going to be the most neutral way to do it and it's not as thought you're not getting all the same tube color in your preamp section. In fact, depending on the amp, the loop may be after even the master volume in terms of the amp signal path. Tube buffered loops add a lot of color and contribute to why many folks don't like loops because they add gain stages to the amp and change the character because tubes aren't neutral inherently. No guitar pedals will work with a passive loop very well. If you have a passive loop, you should have something like this Dumbleator type device to isolate the impedance of the devices via buffers, and provide level controls for the send and return to accommodate the different input levels from different effects types from line to instrument. A good percentage of effects loops now are all active, so the industry has more of a standard than back in the 80's but some are slow to get there and don't really understand this concept.
@@VertexEffectsInc ive modded Fender HR Deluxes for 21 years, on a local customers amp (2) , i completely bypassed the SS loop, n he built him a external tube loop, OMG, the amps came ALIVE! Theres a 50+k loading on the preamp out B4 the send op amp..
@@jamesprice6381 you might like the sound of the tube loop, but it's not going to be that transparent compared to a high quality solid state loop with a send and return volume control to dial the output gain and input gain to the pedals used. I'm sure it still sounds great nontheless.
I think Dumble was trying to tell us something with this obviously intentional inferior effects loop design: "don't use pedals with a Dumble, idiot. I've given you tonal perfection out of the box." - Alexander Dumble
A dumble is basically an amp with clean headroom to full bore with a great built in overdrive. Great players don't use a lot of pedals! A reverb, a delay an overdrive or two and maybe a wah. Pedal users can get by by just using a twin or a hiwatt with a ton of pedals.
@@BrianElliot yeah I know that comment was worded wrong. I was thinking of the sixties and seventies. Sorry I'm an old man! But it's true,, pedal players just need a good clean high headroom amp.
@@VertexEffectsInc you don't have to thank me for watching this! Rig Doctor has given me more than a fair share of gear education over the years. Glad I discovered the Steel String years back! By the way, not unlike some other pedals I own, the Steel String sounds majestic through any tube amp. But as soon as I run through a solid state or modeling rig like Iridium it's Fizz-central especially chording. That's the give and take of great tone I guess
Why couldn’t you just stick a boss pedal as the first pedal and have it switched off - or on for that matter with the gain turned all the way down and adjust levels with the volume knob?
No because the cable from the SEND will still be seen, in terms of capacitance, before you reach the Boss pedal. Even short lengths of cables coming out of a passive loop can make a big sound difference and becomes like a rolled down tone control on a guitar, way more exaggerated than a long cable in front of the preamp from a guitar or pedal, and the more capacitance seen on the FX Send, the worse it is. Also the Boss pedals don't have compensations for input and output gain, especially the time based effects that you'd presumably put in your loop.
Don't know their work but at this point most of the information about how to re-create a Dumble amp is widely available. At the end of the day Dumble's were all custom to a degree but you can make something with the broad strokes with available info.
@@VertexEffectsInc I think they just refered to dumble and far as style and build quality, i'm sure they got the fx loop sorted out. Mike McCready of pearl jam uses them, I doubt he uses the front of his amp for the big pedal board that he has. 👍
Was there a place where I definitively say those amps don't have buffered effects loops...I don't recall that singling them out as not having a buffered effects loop. Presumably there are several amps that have buffered effects loops that weren't mentioned here - the intent of the video isn't to cover every amplifier with a buffered loop but rather speak on the benefits of a buffered effects loop.
@@jayhernandez8965 I see..there was a photo as an example of a Dumble replica amp. I didn't catch that in the edit. We came up with a list of a several of the replica makers that nail the Dumble approach 1:1 that we planned to use as "b roll" as the video progressed. I don't recall there being any bad faith effort to imply that these amps were poor or not representative to the sound. If he's putting an effects loop in all of his amps, he's ahead of the curve, I always wondered why Dumble didn't do it himself as it became clear that pedals were here to stay.
He wasn’t the first guy to do an active effects loop however, yet I agree he made iconic amps undoubtedly. If there is an Achilles Heel, the passive effects loops is it or not including the active effects loop in the amp. If not then, now for sure.
And this nobody is also stealing his work hanging from Dumble’s succes doing none sense videos with his name, no one cared in the past about a effects loop and all the legends made it without it, and all the nobodies gear heads struggle with technical issues instead of dedicate to compose and play
Thanks for this video. Thoughts on using a passive effects loop with an RJM Mastermind PBC10 with loops 7-10, which have a buffer on either end? I'm actually currently experimenting with this with the Two Rock Studio Signature. Delay and reverb seem to sound fine through the effects loop, but I had to put my Strymon Lex in loop 7 cuz I had nowhere else to put it. It sounds dark, muddy and just plain crappy. Would one of the solutions mentioned in the video help, or am I better off bypassing the effects loop and running everything in front?
Gordon, I don't think you can add gain or cut gain on the buffers on the RJM, and you also will see the full capacitance on the Send cable before you even get to the pedalboard, and this won't be the same as the impact as going into the front of the amp because of its location in the signal path. The more capacitance seen on the output of the send, the more it acts like a tone control on a guitar, rolling off the high end in a VERY exaggerated way on most circuits. This is what the Buffered Effects Loop alternatives I proposed basically need to live at the amp with the shortest cables possible so you can mitigate the loss as much as possible, then you can use longer cables out of the active effects loop box to go to the pedalboard. This is an ideal box, the Kleinulator, for almost all the Two Rock amps. I think only the TS1 has an active loop as I recall.
@@VertexEffectsInc dumble clones, I've never played a real one but I've had a ceriatone ods and a carol ann JB100 and both sounded better with the buffered effects loop in for some reason. I'm not sure if it was the extra gain stage or tube or what but I made them more mellow and dark and warmer
@@VertexEffectsInc tube buffer, I've used the c-lator by ceriatone and the vox V941 and both have different sounds but both do similar things by mellowing out the sound and giving a smooth dark dynamic feel, it's not drastic but it's enough to know when it's missing if you know what I mean. I would be super interested if Vertex had a build for one. I know bludotone, two rock, van weelden, ceriatone and Fuchs all make them and probably all sound a little different and vary drastically in price for some reason
I think the Klienulator already does a great job for this. I like solid state for this application as said in the video. I don’t know I could bring much to the table
If Dumble got it wrong, so did Matchless so did Dr. Z and Nolatone as well, and many others. I wouldn’t say we got it “wrong”. We want to offer a way to get the signal out and back in without adding the complexity of a buffer circuit. It’s not ideal for all loop applications but if you’re not using the loop a lot, we don’t want to impose the extra circuitry. Many offer a buffered loop, like the Metro Amps zero loss, which I have put added to some of my Nolatone amps. IME, many folks like having the option to access the signal, but in practice don’t do it that often, instead putting affects into the front front of the amp.
Howdy Nolatone! I remember seeing Carl Verheyen many years ago at your booth at the LA Amp Show. Cool amps! I can only hypothesize Dumble's intent, but I don't think it was about complexity given the time he spent on his amps to turn one around, and that he ultimately ended up with a product to address this issue. Evidently, he recognized this shortcoming, and hence the Dumbleator. I think a lot of companies in the 90's felt the pressure from the inertia and topspin from the 1980's - to start having line level outputs from the preamp, or taps off the output transformer padded down to line level for those that were running outboard rack gear into other power amps. I've not spoken to Mike at Dr. Z, but I've read interviews with Mark Sampson about this and seen some exchanges of his that lead me to believe this may be the reason. I don't think they (Mike and Mark) envisioned pedals becoming as pervasive as they have from when Matchless amps were first conceived, presumably in the late 80's or early 90's, before they really broke into the amp market. I think his approach might be different if Matchless were just getting into the market now as the passive effects loop would be pretty worthless for those that would want to use pedals between the preamp and power amp. If you're planning to run effects in the loop, you need a buffered effects loop if you want to maintain the most possible transparency. In particular, as solid state loop, if you want it to be as neutral as possible. As an amp builder, you know better than me, passive effects loops cannot drive any capacitance on the output without degrading the tone. Every cable has a capacitance, and the more capacitance you have (either by way of longer cables, or higher capacitance cables), the worse it gets and becomes a tone control, like rolling down the tone knob on a guitar. If you have a passive loop, and want to be able to use even 2-3 pedals in there, you should have something like this Dumbleator type device to isolate the impedance of the devices via buffers, and provide level controls for the send and return to accommodate the different input levels from different effects types from line to instrument. A passive loop, by contrast, is going to have quite a bit of loss from the send to the first pedal, especially if it's on a pedalboard and going 10ft from amp to the pedal input. That's already going to kill the tone considerably. Many of these passive loops are still coming out line level, then hitting instrument level effects, and going to the return of the loop instrument level - being driven by a pedal with who knows what output Z, could be 100 ohms (good), could be 1K (not great), could be 10K (awful) - talk about suboptimal. Also depending on where you loop is in relationship to the amplifier signal path, you might be able to do some compensation for the input gain on the send with the Master Volume so at least you're not clipping your first pedal in the loop, but it's still a huge compromise and will have some upstream consequence on your settings you created before you engaged your loop. With no standards for loops, their impedances, and line/instrument level adjustments - if you plan to use a loop, I'd only consider a buffered loop, preferably solid state. I think Friedman does a decent one as you mentioned, I think Mesa Boogie does too, as does Paul Rivera. I'm sure there are others. Thanks for the comment, and thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc WRT complexity, in the case of a Dumble, perhaps, but in the case of Matchless, with the point-to-point build, more likely a concern. In my case I offer the unbuffered loop because I can offer it as an inexpensive option. Those who don't anticipate using the loop a LOT may not want to pay the extra $$. There's a bit of confusion about how loops work out there though, so your video provides some nice insight, regardless of why an unbuffered lop is or is not used.
@@VertexEffectsInc looking to make my old soldered cables, the solderless ones I’m using are the weak link in my chain. Do you sell the ends and cable?
once you get serious about amps and are at pro level you simply dont use effect loops on your amps. you either run that stuff before the amp or you run it post amp into your main mixer
Mason, you taught me buffer religion. I've never looked back. I got a Mesa High-wire for me "in front" pedal board an it changed my life (well....). My question: can you use a buffer like a High-wire for the effects loop, too? I know it doesn't have the send/receive adjustment that a Dumbalator or Kleinulator has, but it adjusts the impedance accordingly.
No, you need something that can deal with the line level output and attenuate it as needed for line or instrument level and also make up any gain on the return if needed. It won't work for this application - only for the pedalboard side in front of the preamp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Got it - makes perfect sense. BTW, I used to own a Fuchs (Dumble clone). Andy puts those send/receive knobs on the effects loop. The only one I know that builds them in.
I am selling a 1964/65 Fender Super Reverb modded by Dumble in Santa Cruz, CA in in the early 70s. Any suggestions or inquiries are welcome. Photos, serial numbers of amp etc.
Great video. I like that you don't just use the theme as "click bait" but also to instruct on the nature of effects loops and how to solve the problem of passive effects loops. One thing that I think that isn't accurate is how people used delay and reverb in the 1980s. Rack units abounded (ADA/Lexicon/TC Electronic) were part of every studio musician's gear and many live rigs in the 1980s. Even some of my high school friends "shelled" out for them. While early adopters like David Lindley and Lowell George may not have employed them, from the beginning (the most influential adopters) of their use, Robben Ford and particularly Larry Carlton had need of the Dumbleator from the beginning of their use of these amps. Larry had a video where he talked about his rack set up in that era. - Dumble owners also often seem to prefer their Dumble amps with the Dumbleator employed even with nothing in the effects loop.
I don’t know if anything here disqualifies what you’ve said. The Dumblator comes out later in the lineage, as a response, I believe, to the increased use of effects after the preamp and rack gear. But I also walk it back to see that there’s no way he could’ve anticipated it that would’ve been the shift or the future application, so if that redesigning the entire chassis of the amplifier, this was the easiest solution to address using line level processing Effects between the preamp and power amp with the right signal conditioning.
An easy way to tell is just put a 10 foot cable from send to return - if you get a lot of loss and you don’t have any controls on the back of the amp to compensate for the levels on send or return, it’s likely passive.
Precious. A scam artist who hasn't built anything original and sold me a repackaged BBE Wah that didn't even work (we had a video call together Mason), has the balls to call out a guy who's not even with us. (RIP). To make a few clicks I assume. Wish more people knew about this scam artist's past. Vertex is a joke.
Depends on the type of capacitance. Mica vs. ceramic vs. film...they all have different sounds even at the same value. The same goes for cables and how they're made. Also where is the capacitance??? After the guitar? After a pedal? All these things make a difference. Try running a 50 foot cable in your passive effects loop without any effect in there...I bet you're not gonna like cable capacitance there.
I never knew that you lose more tone in the FX loop than you do at the amp input. Good information. That could explain why every time I've tried putting stuff in my FX loop, I alway have ended up taking it out and putting it back in front of the amp. My only other thought is, why is this video specifically addressing only Dumbles? - Aren't the FX loops in 99% of amplifiers, passive?
mk win - if it's passive, that's typically true. There are some caveats to that, depending on the location of the FX Loop. Sometimes after the master volume, the FX can be compensated for with the master volume to adjust the gain going into the FX send, however it will change the parameters of the amplifier and what you have in front of it, so that isn't always a good thing or a workable thing for guitar players since they compromise the non-effects loop sound when they involve the FX loop. If it's an active loop, like what I propose here - and many companies build in an active effects loop in their amps nowadays - it's not a problem and you can pretty much put what you want in the loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc Au contraire, you've clearly prejudged that I haven't watch it already. The fact that you're still around amazes me. I would be more interested in a video on how to be a successful con-artist. Now that is something you have experience in. Oh and lets talk about contents. Do the research on your own content. The amp you have pictured at time stamp 00:38. yeah that builder does address that issue and does have a tube buffered effects loop.
@@ricklittleton7677 calm down buddy... Mason asked forgiveness and did his best to fix the issues. I'd trust someone who has made a mistake and learnt from it over someone who is a constant pretender like Josh at JHS. BESIDES, this video was made in a respectful manner, I don't think your comment has approached this same standard.
A lot of them are, however in more recent years some companies have started to invest more time in trying to figure out a better quality version, but it’s still few and far between
@@icarusi hmmm...don't think so based on most guys that have used it. Typically using rack delays/reverbs. Robben and Larry were all TC 2290's. The were forced to use the active effects loop rack from Dumble to use them.
@@VertexEffectsInc I'd just do the same as RF in the studio, just feed it back throught the monitors and FOH. I've never been keen on the sound of fx loops. I prefer to either tap-off after the preamp, and take it elsewhere, or mike up and do the same. I prefer time and chorus fx not to go just into the power amp. Either use in front or after the whole amp. I'm ok with fx loops in solid state or hybrid amps (with ss power amps). www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiHnbiOsNPsAhUQLBoKHfG3ChcQFjADegQIDRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegearpage.net%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fthreads%2Fhow-robben-uses-his-dumble-these-days.2003712%2F&usg=AOvVaw12liouQWUs5h3HAO2rI-4r
Actually if you think about it he was a smart business man because he would make more money 💵 💵 selling additional hardware. The stand alone Dumblelator.
@@VertexEffectsInc FYF ( for youurs foortuunnes, yeh thinkit over AS H, ass in work/busines. sory,just bought a 10yr young one in the net, Love ,pedal😍😍K lama kazoo! ugly...hows everybodys "vertex pedals lasting ? 10 years? luv K😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
Dumble built most of his amps in the 80's when everyone was using line level rack mount effects that didn't need buffered loops. When pedals became more commonplace, he then built the dumbleator, a tube buffered effects loop that you could use with the amp. So no, Dumble didn't get it wrong, you did Mason
Fariz - thanks for watching and for the comment. This is mentioned in the video almost exactly as you've stated it. I think I use the words "Dumble couldn't have foreseen the pervasiveness of pedals [back in the 70's]..." in response to the need to attenuate the line level down to -20 for common pedals. Is it possible you jumped to conclusions based on the titling (which admittedly has some "RUclips Hyperbole") before completing the entire video? I am, however, curious as to why Dumble never built in the Dumbleator into the amp after pedals were clearly here to stay. This will always be something I wonder about.
@@VertexEffectsInc well, I watched the video knowing full well it was a clickbait title. However, you're implying that not having a buffered effects loop is 'wrong', which I understand as you are a pedal maker, and see it from the point of view of someone who wants to use pedals with an amp. But seeing he's an amp maker, and his clientele were a lot of pro/session guitarists in the eighties with rack/studio effects (the dumbleator being a rack sized device on itself) I personally don't think he ever gave a shit if it was inconvenient to use pedals with his amps 😆 (same reason why he didn't build the dumbleator into the amp I guess)
@@farizshakir2252 I'm not so much saying it's "wrong" so much as I'm saying it makes it difficult to get the sound of the amplifier with a guitar cable plugged into it (presuming you like the sound of the amp alone) unless you buffer the effects loop. If you plan to use the effects loop, not buffering it will present a myriad of variables for the end user to contend with and will relegate players to using a select number of devices that can accept +4 (line level) and have very short cables going to/from the fx loop to minimize the loss. Of it's most known users - Robben Ford, Larry Carlton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Lowell George, Eric Johnson - for the most part, they were very abbreviated with effects in the loop (Robben and Larry using a TC 2290 most notably) or no effects in the loop at all (SRV, Lowell, EJ). A case could be made for EJ I suppose during the Bradshaw era with the SSS amps but I think that if that were the "Dry" it would have used a line out box to tap off the output transformer and get the line level with some volume adjustment to feed the rack effects. I don't recall seeing a Dumbleator there. I think a case could be made to support the passive loop back in the 70's part of the early 80's - but clearly the Dumbleator was a response to not only rack gear, but pedals. The Dumbleator could, as I understand it, go down to -20 for pedal level. Why even make a Dumbleator if your rack gear already can accept line level if using external effects was unimportant? Clearly he was trying to address the changing terrain of pedal and rack applications after the preamp section of the amplifier and give players control on the level hitting the input of their wet effects as well as making up the gain on the output coming back into the FX return. Of course this is all conjecture...we can't really know, but it's fun to theorize why this might have been. I also wonder why he hasn't gone to a solid state loop on the more modern amps - that seems like an obvious thing to maintain what the preamp is doing without adding more color from the wet effects with more tube stages (and more noise from the additional tubes).
Hello Mason, a good solution. Thanks. BTW I was at a Larry Carlton Clinic back in 1994 at the old West L.A. music. Larry had his Dumble amp with him, and Howard was there himself. Larry opened up the floor to questions for Howard, and right away the issue of the Dumbleator came up. Even then some guitarists had questions about the passive effects loop issue, and Dumble’s attempt to provide a piece of basically outboard gear to turn it into a active buffered loop. I can only surmise from Howard’s rather mumbled and muddled answer regarding the need for an active effects loop on his amps that it wasn’t his favorite subject. Larry Carlton said nothing about the subject, so I don’t know if his rig used any effects pedals in his Dumble amp loop. But I do recall that at that time, and for several years prior, that many guitar players were using a Yamaha SPX-90 rack effects unit (as was I), and the only way to do that was with an amp equipped with an active effects loop, like a Mesa as you mentioned. So I would suppose that the lack of a buffered effects loop issue in Dumble amps was made known to him probably in the later 1980’s by the many first call L.A. studio guitarists that used his gear. In my view his external“Dumbleator” active buffer was a “Kluge” solution to offer his existing customers. He should have upgraded his amps to an active loop by the early 1990’s.
This is a great story! I think he didn't foresee this application as I said...and the Dumbleator was a response to that. I wish we could've seen this included in the amp at some point, but to my knowledge it was only available as a separate device.
@@VertexEffectsInc Dumble was very particular about his amp designs, so I’m not surprised that he didn’t want to alter it by including a buffered effects loop.
I've seen Larry's "Rig Rundown". He had him a dumblator. But does a buffer affect the tone of the amp? Maybe he couldn't get what he was looking for with the buffered loop? Are those even legitimate questions?
@@deanmlshredder If one is using +4 db rack effects unit, an active loop would be needed. In the late 1980’s the “Bradshaw” refrigerator rack was the effects chain of choice with most of the top session guitarists of that time. Keep in mind that most guitar pedals tended to be noisy things back then. Especially with them running in the typical series chain configuration. So many studio guitar players, and even live players, started using rack mounted effects at that time. They were very quiet. And many were MIDI controlled, so a bank type foot switch would allow players like Andy Summers or the Edge to quickly call up and preset combination they wanted.
@@Johnrack sure. But the question remains... Could the buffered effects loop Have changed the tone of the amp to a degree that Dumble didn't want it integrated and left it up to the customer by offering an external solution? I heard Eddie Van Halen left the 5150 without reverb because even when it was off just having integrated into the amp changed it's tone and feel. Maybe Dumble liked the sound better without it and gave everyone the choice of having the pure tone of the amp the way he liked it. The world will never know. Lol.
Was this Dumble’s biggest mistake? What are your favorite Dumbleator clones or active effects loop boxes? Tell us in the comments below!
Excellent video! The effects loop was always a problem with these amps, but then again, I don't like the effects loops on most amps, including a Boogie I owned for years. I tried a Dumble Overdrive Special at a small shop in Los Angeles around '87. The amp's owner just wanted to show the thing off to the shop owner who offered to pay him about ten grand, which he refused. I played through it with an LP Standard and sure enough, it was loud, proud, and very clear. Great amp, but I think there are so many great Dumble alternatives that there's no reason to take out a mortgage to buy a Dumble. Two-Rock, Fuchs, and a number of companies are making excellent Dumble style amps. No, they're not cheap, but they sound brilliant.
@@angusorvid8840 Thanks for watching!
VOX made a great single rack space buffered loop in the mid '90's called the V941.
Best add-on effects loop i currently have is a Fargen added loop in my Vox NT-15H
In theory, you could solve this by simply adding an extra 12AY7 between v2 and the phase inverter so that one of the triodes powers the output to FX and the other powers the FX input to the power amp. From there you can literally just clone the dumbleator circuit straight into the amp and be done with it. Maybe throw on a presence knob a la the SSS so you can find a setting your power amp likes depending on the length of your signal chain.
You are absolutely correct about Dumble getting the effects loop wrong. Not only is it not buffered the signal level coming out of the SEND is way too hot. You can see levels there well over 100 volts P-P. Of course this is contingent to the level of the pre amp volume pot. But if you want that pot set in the sweet spot (5-6) you will have over 100 volts P-P going to your pedal board. That can damage your pedals. Dumble made the level and impedance proprietary so only his Dumblelator would work with his amps.
Again, as said in the video, it was hard to predict how these amps would be used in the field, I don't think he could have (or anyone) could have predicted the pervasiveness of pedals after the preamp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Still standard loop design should be line level even back then. Dumble made it super hot (100 VP-P) so it would only work with his Dumblelator. That’s called proprietary.
Mason good post very logical and makes sense. After watching the You Tube with That Pedal Show and Robben Ford talking about his Dumble... Robben stated that Dumble's house/residence was cluttered with amps guitars, parts, tubes, more guitars and more amp parts- very little places to even walk. So imagining this that Dumble was a parts collector/hoarder and would custom make an amp from parts - how could one ever think he could have the same tone/sound when he was using like parts from different amps where the burn in factor was all probably different to a certain degree. Like where they all would work and sound 'good to greater' than the last amp, but not in that identical factor a lot of folks are wanting these days. Also your explanation of the effects loop in the Dumble amps and how he put it all together - where he had no idea folks would be using is probably right on point. Good Job
Can't wait to show this to my buddies at Blues Lawyers & Associates! It's jam night at the country club!
Hahahahahaha! It's not at the Country Club this week, it's over at the Harrow Club on Mustang Sally Ave.
Ive got an Overdrive special by Volt Amps in UK , Aston Electronics. He has addressed both these issues , I have an efx loop and built in reverb. The amp is completely hum free and a work of Art .
Nice! Will do!
Hey Mason, fantastic idea to raise the discussion about Dumblelators, or specifically the solid state Kleinulator. I did finally break down and order one from the Rig Doctor website, intended for the loop in my Matchless amp. Here’s my observations.
I’ve learned that the Kleinulator wasn’t necessarily designed to be completely transparent. According to designer Mike Klein’s own words, it was intended to mirror the particular colored sound of a certain Dumbleator.
Some people allegedly like the darker tone they’re getting from the Kleinulator (or the C-lator, or a D’lator), but I gotta admit I don’t.
1) Using it in the passive loop in my Matchless SC-30 completely changes the character of my amp. Less clarity, less highs, less sparkliness, a duller and darker sound than the amp has in its loop-less mode. The “bright” switches on the Kleinulator, depending on the settings of the rotary dials, either didn’t seem to do very much at all to counteract this, or with some alternative settings made things TOO bright, like unpleasantly brittle, way more than the amp on its own. And there are no shadings. The bright switches are either on or off, there’s no tweakable in-between.
2) Plus I was getting some unwelcome added overdrive from that box, probably from the “Recovery” stage, even at low settings, with a sound I didn’t care for. As if there was some sort of additional, mild but noticeable, woolly overdrive pedal in my signal chain which I had not chosen to be there and which I was not able to dial out. Again, maybe some people LIKE this, perhaps specifically in conjunction with a Dumble-type amp. Who knows. Me, I would want a loop buffer box that stays transparent and doesn’t change the amp’s tone. The Kleinulator DOES change my tone.
3) And then I found myself with yet another problem on my hands. My loop has just a couple of delays placed in it, with a volume pedal in front of them. I need to be able to rock that pedal back and have the amp completely silent. But when running some strong overdrive and boost pedals in front of the amp, bringing the volume pedal all the way back did not completely silence the signal, but some buzzy traces of distortion were always able to poke through. I don’t believe this is the volume pedal’s fault, because that same pedal is able to go down to total zero in scenarios that are not involving the Kleinulator. I do, however, believe that it could be the Kleinulator’s Send/Return or Recovery stage design that maybe allows some kind of cross-talk between components, so even when the volume pedal is at zero a certain amount of signal is still somehow allowed to make its way through the circuitry. I remember a slightly similar case with a MESA Mark III loop, and MESA explained that their Amp Loop is handled by a dedicated tube which does double-duty, but inside the same physical glass bottle, so it’s conceivable that some kind of cross-talk may appear under certain conditions. Maybe the Kleinulator’s behavior is in some ways due to a comparable architecture?
Now, to complete the picture, what’s interesting is that when I use a regular pedal buffer, right at the amp’s Loop Send, to drive and buffer the amp loop (instead of using the Kleinulator), all the above shortcomings completely fall away. Even though one would expect that this should be all wrong, the built-in buffer in a lowly BOSS pedal (in bypass mode, but the buffer being always-on) currently seems to handle this task the best (at least with my Matchless, mind you), better than the supposedly purpose-made adjustable Kleinulator.
Maybe I’m lucky that the BOSS pedal somehow isn’t actually overtaxed by the electrical levels coming from the amp’s Loop Send. Fact is, I can use the amp’s Send/Return with the BOSS as a buffer and have that sound PRETTY DAMN NEAR identical to running the amp without the loop.
The amp sounds transparent, clear, same amp characteristics, same riding the edge of breakup, no loss of highs.
And no artificially injected distortion.
Full-on volume pedal almost identical to loop-less amp.
Rocked-back volume pedal quiet as a mouse.
Let it also be said here that various other buffer pedals may or may not achieve similar results, at least for a period of time. But most of the ones I tried (other than the BOSS) ultimately developed certain negative characteristics that were probably due to the fact that they simply were not intended to be used in a loop like that.
Of course, what I’m not quite able to maximize when using this pedal buffer scenario is the level matching that a “proper” loop-a-lator box hopes to accomplish. But I’m also able to sidestep the unwanted side effects which I described above.
I had been hoping that the tweakable Kleinulator would do a much better job than a BOSS buffer.
Unfortunately, for MY needs it is falling short in a number of ways.
If you get the solid state Kleinulator it's pretty good...the tube one will have a lot of color.
@@VertexEffectsInc The solid state Kleinulator is actually what I got. I had my hopes up, but unfortunately it's not transparent, in addition to my other observations above. I may have to keep looking.
“Biggest mistake”… yet Dumble definitely built buffered loops into his amplifiers before … he complained that it was too crammed and was not as happy with the results… hence why he stuck to the rack mounted external devices .
“Biggest mistake” …yet he addressed it with his own external device design …
Having said all that, this is what you call click bait . Use Dumbles name (the real Doctor !!!) to create a buzz for your own business based off of his designs . One more reason I will never touch any product by Vertex.
I think if he were to have gone solid state, it wouldn't be an issue in terms of space, but I think by the time it would have been necessary to transition a more production line amp to this style of loop (like a Mesa Boogie size brand), he didn't have to. His volume was too small and his amps were desirable to the point where he didn't need to adapt them for a wider audience. You're right, he did have the Dumbleator, but that came much later as a response to the rack gear people started using with their amps and other line level processing. Having a stock passive loop in isolation was pretty unusable for external effects. I also defend possible reasons in the video why Dumble may not have used active effects loop in the video, maybe you didn't stay for that? Also which of my products were mentioned in this video? I don't see any or recall naming something we make.
@@VertexEffectsInc
“If he went solid state…”
Dumble did not like solid state for his own designs . This was highlighted when “Dr D” was questioned by Henry Kaiser years ago :
Kaiser : “what’s the difference between transistors and tubes ? “
Dumble: “well the difference comes down to this …the more fragile harmonics can survive in a vacuum tube , where they seem to be eliminated or squashed in a solid state crystal lattice …”
Anyone can spin in circles arguing the physics of it all , or if solid state is more “transparent “ , but “Dr D” had very strong and well known opinions that leaves no room for wondering why he would use tubes in his effects loop…
Whereas I admit I have not found the exact historical timeline of the dumbleator, however considering that Henry Kaiser (very early user) was the owner of the first dumbleator I am gonna safely say it wasn’t exactly as you describe as “much later “ when it was developed.
Those public access clips were around the mid eighties…the whole “dumble couldn’t have foresaw” rhetoric doesn’t hold water …maybe in 1970…but we are talking a career that was going strong up until his passing this year …
beyond that the Klein u lator is essentially a solid state dumbleator clone … just one more variation of the many buffered loops mentioned and found in other amplifiers …literally nothing dumble didn’t address
essentially the whole premise of this argument of “how dumble got it wrong” is simply based upon the inconvenience of having a separate unit to deal with besides just the amplifier … in the end all other statements insisting on some sort of negligence are at best a mistaken assumption …
“Which one of my products was mentioned in this video?”
“Vertex “ in itself is a product . Simultaneously you are presenting yourself as the “Rig Doctor “ guitar gear aficionado supreme …this video is essentially another advertisement for your reputation and services …that’s inarguable …and utilizing Dumble (literally one of the most famous amplifier builders of all time) in a tabloid style headline of “how he got it wrong” in order to demonstrate how you know how to hook up an effects loop is the epitome of click bait…
EDIT: the first product mentioned is the vertex collaboration with ceriatone; kleinulator… did you forget that product ? Give me a break
Save some face dude , don’t bother replying , ignore me and ride that train to success , just know not everyone is gonna fall for the bs , and some might even speak up about it …good luck
@@charlieplate9687 The pedal people and all the solid state kids....can't grasp that in Tube signal chain...the signal pathway can be pure which means NOT passing through resistance or capacitance......other than the plate coupling capacitor which today is a Film Capacitor & the volume pot as a voltage divider/grid stop resistor, So wide open on the volume control pot is a direct connection of the wiper to input signal and the grid stopper is maximum distance of signal to ground. The coupling capacitor functions as a filter for frequency which it would pass through ! Solid State has signal passing through an ELECTROLYTIC capacitor and thus a WET chemical that is the basis of the electrolytic capacitors as they need a rather high capacitance value....and the construction of the vessel has a VENT HOLE.......So these Solid State people can't grasp that thus a WET CHEMICAL is....SUBJECT...to...EVAPORATION.....a constant state of change and degradation.
@@mikecamps7226
There ain’t nothing like the real thing baby. Solid state only wins In the battle of quantity, not quality
My Dr. Z Stang Ray has a passive FX loop and I use the Ceriatone version of the Kleinulator to reun my time based effects and it works great.
Perfect application! Hope you dug the video!
My Ceriatone OTS came with a built in C-Lator. This video inspires me to use it more!
Well worth it! Friends don’t let friends use passive effects loops.
Between how many knobs are on my Ceriatone OTS and the Klienulator it can drive me insane but when I dial it in it sounds so good.
Luckily, once you get the Klein dialed in, you won't have to change it as long as the same effects are in the loop. Throw some gaffers tape on the knobs and you'll be set to go. Velcro it on the back of you amp and you're done.
Brilliant! In full agreement. I think better though is a buffered/active effects loop with bypass switches.
Thanks for watching!
Happy and thankful to say my own Dumble clone, a Fuchs TDS, does include a fully buffered FX loop.
You showed a Welagen in your video. He builds a dumblator in all his ODS amps
If he’s using an active loop, he’s definitely ahead of the curve amongst his fellow Dumble replica builders. Very wise choice on his end. Thank you for watching!
I was just going to comment the same thing, Jelle puts a buffered loop in his amps
Correct! Well explained in a respectful and thoughtful way.
Thanks for watching Kevin!!! Glad you dig it!
ive got a grab n go Jet City combo, the RCA manual did Mike good, as he slitly tweaked that "D" LOOP circuit, look it up, it works VERY well,
Very cool! Thanks for the comment!
Great video Mason. I agree with your analysis that Dumble didn’t get it wrong but couldn’t have foreseen the pedalboard monsters that would be conjured up by the rock gods!
Thank you so much for watching! I hope earned your subscription
Cable length is a factor affecting sound in passive signals (loss of high frequencues), but is negligable for active signals, such as the signal coming from a preamp. The oreamp is basically a buffer and an effect loop that is located after an preamp is by definition active. In addition, the effect loop is commonly used with rack gear with buffers. Opinions are free, but i dont agree that your arguments are valid to call this a mistake ;)
Cable should be really long, as for concert use. Since you run this type of amps at home or studio you don't have to worry about buffers...
Great Video. I have a Ceriatone OTS 50. I had to get a high quality buffer to help with FX.
Great to hear! The buffered loop is a must!
Some people ought not think so much.
My resolution is that I only use one slap back delay into the front of the amp and nothing else 😂 however I am a pretty traditional player. Interesting video I liked it man.
I dig it! A man of simple tastes!!!
"Dumble got it WRONG" title with facepalm still is such a pathetic way of clickbaiting.
Igor, upon reflection, I agree - it could be done better. We'll take this change under advisement.
Yeah, but if i didnt click on this video, id think Dumble may be shit...Im suppose to be using a friends dumble this week, and if we used the fx loop we'd really think he got it wrong...So, in my case? Having the semi negative clickbatty thumbnail, may be what would have ruined my 1st impression of a dumble, i wish my boy was bringing an original burst, but then i may have to kill him and take it lol...Anyway i was thinking the same as you till i checked out the video...you got a point!
i mean if not for the thumbnail he used, i wouldve never known, but again, i feel you...but in my case, helpful..
I agree!
Dumble's name is known and this Fartbag isn't. Maybe that's what Mr Fartbag got WRONG! 😂
I own a Mojave amp and it doesn't use an effects loop, but instead provides a variable line out with power damping. I think this a better design strategy.
But what does the line out connect to? Wet Effects? What do those feed?
I have a Ceriatone 20W D clone, with a passive loop. I also have a Kleinulator -- which I've never used, and now I kinda wonder if I'll ever use it... Thus far I've been happy not using it with the efx I have (right now, I'm using a DL4 MkII delay/reverb). So I think the need for a buffered loop is dependent on what efx unit you're using.
BTW I only use time-based efx in the loop. Overdrives and (curiously) the DejaVibe want to be in front of the amp's main input, in my experience.
Executive summary: for some efx, or if you don't use any efx in the loop, the passive loop is fine, and a buffered loops is unneeded circuitry.
But -- if I could even afford a real D -- it better have a f888ing buffered efx loop
Great content as always, Mason!
Thanks Richard! Same to you!
This is a problem I have with my Matchless HC 30. I’ve thought about looking into a buffer for the fx loop but I’m not sure.
This unit I suggested, the Kleinulator (linked in our description), will work just like it would for the Dumble style circuits. I have no affiliation with any of them but I like the sizes of the Klein.
Isn't the Dumbleator a tube powered FX loop and in general, the preference is to go with a Solid State FX loop?
Yes, to my knowledge they’re all tube-based, not solid state. I think this is more of a consequence of the time that they were designed in that they didn’t involve much subsequently. If you want the most linear response from your time-based effects, there’s certainly no better option than solid state as it will have the least impact on the overall sound and can be made the most transparent. Tubes have an inherent color, which is fine, but for the stuff that you’re putting in your effects loop, it’s not an advisable way to go about it if transparency is paramount.
@@Stashmanfpv I recommend the solid state version (the smaller size one) if possible. Tube is great for the preamp and power amp section - however I find it colors a lot for an effects loop.
Thanks so much for this great video. I own a Ceriatone OTS Lunchbox. I usually have a reverb pedal sitting on top. Because of your insight, I’m going to get an effects loop buffer so I can connect my pedalboard. Great job Doc.
Glad you dig it! Hope we earned you sub!
Yes
@@LeMans512 🥰🥰🥰
Dumbles sound perfect already no need for pedals. 👍
Hi Mason! Couple questions, my amps fx loop has a +4db/-10db level switch. Does that mean that it's buffered?
Also what level should I run guitar pedals at in the loop? +4 or -10?
Thanks man.
Depends on the amp, this should be on the manufacturers website. Sometimes they just have some attenuation at fixed values to approximate line or instrument. Typically active loops have a volume control on the send and often the return as well, bu there is NO standard on FX loops that why it's so hard to say. In terms of where to set the level, depends on the effects and whether they can accept line or instrument level on their input. +4 is normally pro line level, 0 dB is an normal line level from rackmount guitar pre-amps, -10 dBv is consumer line level, and -20 dBu is around instrument level. Depending on the pedal, it might not be able to take either of those. Again this should be published in your manual for both the pedal and the amp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the info. Unfortunately my amp doesn't have much info attached to it. Its an Artec Tube 5, pretty sure it's a Korean company. All I know is that it's a serial fx loop. I'm using a dispatcher master in the loop for reverb and delay, I'll just run it at -10db. Thanks man! Great vids btw.
@@spacemanspiff9780 thank you for watching...I guess the question is, if you turn off the effect and compare it to removing it all from the loop does the sound change?
@@VertexEffectsInc Not a significant change in tone. But I mounted the pedal on top of my amp and using 2 six inch patch cables for the send and return. Since it's an always on pedal, it doesn't really need to be on my board.
Do you still need a buffer from your pedalboard to the return of the kleinulator?
Ideally, yes.
Could you just put your home brew buffer, one patched with a couple inch cable to the send and one to the return of the fx loop? If you can, then you can just dual lock them to the back of the amp.
No, how would you control the level going to the pedal? Also the buffer might not take the swing of the effects loop and could clip.
@@VertexEffectsInc ohhhhh, see this is why I ask the expert instead of pretending to be one 😅
@@algio3041 check out that Kleinulator - it's great!
I think maybe Dumble was misleading by labeling some of the amps Pre-amp out/power-amp in 'effects loop' but I do believe that the intent was to use the Dumbleator. As far as a tube buffer coloring the sound, well everything, solid state or tube, colors the sound. The effects unit used colors the sound as well. The great sound Robben Ford was getting in the 80s was a combo of the amp, Dumbleator and delay unit. Maybe his choice at the time was not as flexible as modern players want these days but I would not call it a mistake.
I'm not sure that he was "misleading" more than just reacting to the conditions that the amp was put in with pedals that weren't part of his original thinking for applications of the amp. I agree that any effects loop will color, however the degree to which it impacts the tone is less going solid state. Robben was relegated to what Dumble had for him at the time, having worked with him extensively over the last 10 years, if there were a better more transparent option, he'd of used it, and hasn't used a Dumbleator quite a long time.
The Fuchs/Plush Verbrator is my favorite of all the “-lators” as it creates a parallel or series loop. Thus, it will act like a regular series tube effects interface, but will also make your loop parallel. I think Fuchs amps have the exact same effects loop as the verbrator. It also has a trim control that boost the return input for some older effects if you need that. The return becomes a mix control in parallel mode. Essentially, parallel mode doesn’t run your entire amp signal through your delay and reverb (or whatever else is in your loop). parallel is much better for me. Series is great for traditional D honk, but the option of parallel is worth whatever Fuchs is charging for the verbrator these days, IMO.
Something like what Fuchs made would be a similar type device to what I recommended and will work great for this application. Andy is a very smart designer so I'm sure he realized this shortcoming in the Dumble amps right away, in particular inside his own amps and including active effects loops.
Soldano tweaked that buffer for his dual channel jet city amps, n sounds waay better than stock dator, check it out, easy tweak, he splits the plate vs the local feedback, and gets the cath follower a tad further from the node..my intellifex is unreal thru that jet city amp, ok in a std D style n dator,
He also changed in on the latest SLO's as well.
The Dumblator works great he sold an extra device equates to more 💵! He knew it didn't and marketed the rack mount buffer besides hanging an extra tube in there and a few more transformers in an already crowded circuit in the physical confines of the chassis is tight! The guy was brilliant and eccentric! He created a tone it took almost 35 years for someone to copy it! Its easy to say what someone should have done 40 plus years ago. He was an original greatly imitated! Nik at ceriatone is fabulous! Carlton does it best mic the amp and effects post mixed.
Sounds like you align with most of what I said in the video then. I think, with 20/20 hindsight, a solid state loop would have been the way to go. Tube loops aren't that transparent anyway, and I think a big reason why those that convert a amp without a loop to a tube buffered loop don't like it - tubes add a lot of color which isn't really beneficial in the effects loop for your time-based effects and the way we're used to hearing them. I don't think that Dumble could have foreseen the trend of line level rack gear designed for a mix bus to be used in his loops, I think this is why we didn't see the Dumbleator until he was well into his amp building career.
Check out the Overdrive special by volt Amps in uk . Sorted all this . I have reverb and efx loop built in . Geoff is a genius at Aston electronics .
Nice! Will do!
The Dumbelator was an excuse to make more $$$$$$$$$$ I had an ODSR made it has the efx loop and I had the proper Dumblelator made for it and it does not HURT the efx or signal and I use that to Tame the 100 somewhat...
That amp was made part for part off #183 and #0060 ODSR reverb as the builder was allowed in both amps he took the smurf out of 183 and made 2 for the owner and he was allowed in 0060 and I requested the verb be put in that amp so its a one off.. I named it the Ultimate Hombre after No country for old men... Its also for sale Im located in Texas we installed the rest of the Dumble known parts in that amp and added better glass and the amp was voiced around my style of playing and the builder used push pull pots too allow the amp to be brighter.. Most ods amps are Dark and you cant get around it so I requested that. If you are in Texas come play them and see.. Ill come meet you and let you play them.... PS I made the wah that you once made and changed the switch and pot and I used to own a real clyde and a 486 and that home made wah kicked their ass so thanks for making that because I went down that rabbit hole and came out with that I also bought a Chase wah which was part for part and when I compared them the CRIDE WAH I made at home killed that pedal also So I asked for a refund which I promptly got back that was kind of the man to refund my cash appreciated ..
Now if I could just find a great fuzz after 30 years.....
Thanks for the commentary, why don’t you send me an email, I’m out in the Austin area every once in a while, would love to check it out!
What if he wanted to make an additional $500 - $1900 sale to an affluent and captive clientele? What if you could find a way to unlock a PAB sound out of the UP or the FET input of the SS, with an additional satellite pedal for the low low low price of $99
I can’t speak to the motivation, but I think it’s likely that he didn’t for see what would happen in the future, I know that there are a few Dumble’s out there now that I’ve researched a little more that did have an effects loop built-in, but it was highly unusual.
I have a Two Rock TS1 and I use a buffered delay pedal (Analogman ARDX20) - does that have the same impact as the active loop, or am I missing out?
No, buffered pedals don't help here. You need to get the buffer basically inside the Amp FX loop, so you need it as close to the source of the FX Send as possible, this is why all those Dumbleators back in the day were usually racked on top of the amp so they could have the shortest cables possible to mitigate any loss due to capacitance on the output of the send, which is ultra sensitive to tone suck. I also don't think the output impedance of that delay pedal is the low so it's not a great line driver either coming back to the return. This is why the Kleinulator or Dumbleator clone is necessary for amps like this so it isolates the impedance of the pedals in the loop and give you a variable level to match the pedals in the loop from instrument (like your pedal) to line level and then compensate for any make up gain on the return volume. Ideally this would be built into your amp, and I think later TS1's actually have a buffered effects loop now standard from Two Rock on this model only. However, if you have an earlier version, you will need a device like this.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks, Mason! You’re right, mine *does* have a tube buffered loop. I will also mention the delay sounds MUCH better through the effects loop than the signal chain. Thanks for the great video.
@@tone_science if you're using any gain on the pedal itself the effects loop is requisite. You never want to have a high gain amp and put a delay before that - for most of us at least. It would be like putting your delay before a distortion pedal.
Have a nice ODS clone w/fx loop - would a used $40 VOX V941 Valve Effects Loop Buffer be worthwhile?
that could work, but the Klein-ulator i think is the better choice.
Hey Mason, great video as always! An unrelated question - Do you have any alternatives for pedal risers that aren't from Fix Pedalboards? I'd love to get some of their pedal risers but living in Asia, the shipping I have to pay through a reseller doesn't really justify the price for me. Thanks!
Those are the only ones I know of that are like this. You could also use plywood and laminate it with Formica or Filon and paint the edges black.
RIP Alexander Dumble
Yes, very sad news.
Hi. I am using a victory sheriff 44.
It's a nightmare with fx it distorts reverb/delay it has an fx loop but it not much better. Victory's solution is to minimize the output level of the fx and that doesn't work great either. Do you know of a solution. I was thinking of buying the boss Waza expander and using the fx loop on that, any idea if it would work. Cheers..
You may be able to get away the the Kleinulator - is it a passive loop? Are they using the master volume to attenuate the input volume on the effects send?
@@VertexEffectsInc hi mason. I'm sure they said it's post master..thanks for your reply..
@@paulcarroll7787 🥰🥰🥰
I played a dumber modify fender bass man, for me it was almost like connecting the guitar directly to a power amp. I never tried an overdrive special or clone of it. Maybe one day.
They’re amazing, no doubt
Quick question, can you use this just as a pedalboard in/out buffer? Like a highwire or a homemade buffer.
No, the buffer for the FX loop needs to be as close to the amp as possible, not on the pedalboard. Also you ideally need a level for the send so you can adjust th e level to around -20 or +4.
Thank you!
In my opinion the best solution is to get an attenuator with an fx loop, although they aren't very cheap!
It's one way to do it, but not necessary unless you actually need an attenuator.
Get that sweet power amp distortion, use your pedals, don't go deaf! What's not to like? BTW good tip on the kleinulator, way easier than trying to mod the amp. Cheers!
@@juanfichtl2011 for sure, ideally these would have the active loop built in, but I also get they wanna make them just like Dumble.
as I thought we made a Ultra phonic and I requested an efx loop this was before sebago was even starting and they got online and trashed the idea only to start making them with efx loop later.. we did this back in 2013 on a hybrid small special ultra type build.. Its for sale btw if anyone needs a 50 watt with correct loop this one has it and we made this one with el34s/ but it can run 6l6... after this I was able to buy a real Dumble Ultra Phonic I run Reverb and Delay post mic ala Ej and there is the sound. That amp is also for sale search Dumble Vid on YT and it should come up under my name on brave browser. The amp is not smurfed inside nor is the hybrid with proper efx loop ... I cant eat them or sleep on them so they are for sale..
👍👍👍
HI DOC I'M AN OLD ITALIAN GUITAR PLAYER AND I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH SOLDANO HR FIFTY + ... FX LOOP WITH DINAMIC AND LOW VOLUME KLEINULATOR IS SOLUTION?
TKS
Marco
The Kleinulator should work fine with the Soldano.
Dumbles amplifiers front end stage has "gain overlap issues". Its best to measure the gain overlap and blocking distortion. How are you measuring the gain overlap and blocking distortion in fender amps and dumble amps?
Is that how people are evaluating Dumbles?
@@VertexEffectsInc evaluating the dumble circuit design if you're making dumble clones pedals it should react the same. The dumble guitar pedal front end should be very close to how sensitive a dumble amplifier is.
i need so much help when it comes to these subjects...Thankgod for guys like you and youtube....Im starting to realize im happy and probably lucky, with my touch and ear...And my ears tell me if im satisfied with guitar,amp, and o.d maybe a fuzz. pedal, depending on song then go for it.. Running a boost here and there delay, reverb, and tremolo....But mostly just an o.d. pedal and more recently a fuzz for heavy blues....and of course the main thing, tone/volume controls...Nothing against pedals, i just love old guitar sounds from the 60's...I love real anemic, semi fuzzy, lo fi, vintage tones...Anything more then what im using takes away from what im trying to acheive...Then i think im doing something wrong, there was a kid in the studio the other day that sounded amazing and his board had like 15 pedals on it and he was getting those sounds i love, round and round i go...lol..I also get tone def and crazy looking for tones wasting so much time, got rid of a stomp helix, and abunch of high end gear and lost so much money, but my days were being wasted on tone searching, then id turn everything off 10 hrs later and be like aaaahhhhhh there it is, so yeah, im going minimal these days, hence, this upcoming wendsday a friend is bringing me a 61 killer tele and a dumble to use in the studio, so this video may come in handy if we decide to use the fx loop, your a f@#CKIN" genous dude, i cant imagine how one brain can store all this info....I bet your pedals are great, just ordered the boost...any plans on building amps?
Thanks for watching! Glad you're getting a boost, enjoy! Amps...maybe???
imho, the kleinulator sounds sonically better w/fx, jfets n tubes ob sound different, i personally like the fwdness of the jfets....ive ran stereo rigs, n i swanny a cheap solid state combo w/fx rtn, made a much better stereo rig ! More natural imho..LOVE the SSS pedal, man thaz awsm, grt engineering!
Thanks for watching James! Glad you dig the SSS pedal!
Ya my VHT D50 needs a buffered loop.. building a DIY kleinulator. Holy parts list BTW
Good call! Enjoy!
Kudo's to the hidden guy behind the camera. He does a great job!
Yes indeed, our camera dudes are great!
Any reasons why using a Passive Effects loops adds More capacitance? you mentioned in the video that passive effect loops has a capacitance issue but what is causing the capacitance issue. I think back in the 70's the outboard rack gear has input and output line level selector switches and also Rolands effects did also, so I'm thinking they worked with only passive effects loops. I personally would want a passive effects loops because if you amplifier is tubes and then the effects loops is Op amps or FETS to buffer the send and return you just ruined you Even harmonics and added odd harmonics from the op amps and FETS. You want to stay true even harmonics which I would use outboard impedance transformers on the send and returns. But since the outboard gear in the 70's and 80's had built in input and output line level selector the front ends had Op amp buffers and FET buffers to be used with Passive Effectors Loops. You didn't mention in the video what guitar pedals would work 100% with Passive effects loops with no problems and which guitar pedals would cause issues and problems with Passive effects loops. This would help learn why some work and others don't with passive effects loops.
Wayne, it's not the loop that adds capacitance. It's that a passive effects loop cannot drive any capacitance on the output without degrading the tone. Every cable has a capacitance, and the more capacitance you use (either by way of longer cables, or higher capacitance cables), the worse it gets and become like a tone control being rolled down on a guitar. Solid state is going to be the most neutral way to do it and it's not as thought you're not getting all the same tube color in your preamp section. In fact, depending on the amp, the loop may be after even the master volume in terms of the amp signal path. Tube buffered loops add a lot of color and contribute to why many folks don't like loops because they add gain stages to the amp and change the character because tubes aren't neutral inherently. No guitar pedals will work with a passive loop very well. If you have a passive loop, you should have something like this Dumbleator type device to isolate the impedance of the devices via buffers, and provide level controls for the send and return to accommodate the different input levels from different effects types from line to instrument. A good percentage of effects loops now are all active, so the industry has more of a standard than back in the 80's but some are slow to get there and don't really understand this concept.
So, now that you talked me into rewiring my board to avoid the FX loop:)
if you don't like your loop, just get one of these Kleinulator doodads
@@VertexEffectsInc I already wired the board so not use the loop & now I can use it w/ amps that don't have an FX loop, so there:)
@@VertexEffectsInc ive modded Fender HR Deluxes for 21 years, on a local customers amp (2) , i completely bypassed the SS loop, n he built him a external tube loop, OMG, the amps came ALIVE! Theres a 50+k loading on the preamp out B4 the send op amp..
@@jamesprice6381 you might like the sound of the tube loop, but it's not going to be that transparent compared to a high quality solid state loop with a send and return volume control to dial the output gain and input gain to the pedals used. I'm sure it still sounds great nontheless.
I think Dumble was trying to tell us something with this obviously intentional inferior effects loop design: "don't use pedals with a Dumble, idiot. I've given you tonal perfection out of the box." - Alexander Dumble
I don’t think that’s true, why would he have created the Dumblater then?
@@VertexEffectsInc my post wasn't meant to be taken seriously, but thank you for the response!
Okay! I want to build Dumble ODS and SSS clones. How do I fix the problem you have uncovered?
You can install a loop in the amp...some of the Dumble Clone Builders like Fuchs do this and remove the need for the external loop.
What's the song from the intro? Is that Mike Stern?
Dann Huff??
A dumble is basically an amp with clean headroom to full bore with a great built in overdrive. Great players don't use a lot of pedals! A reverb, a delay an overdrive or two and maybe a wah. Pedal users can get by by just using a twin or a hiwatt with a ton of pedals.
I know a heap of great players that also use a lot of pedals. One of them rhymes with Smohn Smayer
@@BrianElliot yeah I know that comment was worded wrong. I was thinking of the sixties and seventies. Sorry I'm an old man! But it's true,, pedal players just need a good clean high headroom amp.
thanks for watching!
@@russellesimonetta3835 all good! I love amps, almost as much as my pedal fascination lol
@@VertexEffectsInc you don't have to thank me for watching this! Rig Doctor has given me more than a fair share of gear education over the years. Glad I discovered the Steel String years back!
By the way, not unlike some other pedals I own, the Steel String sounds majestic through any tube amp. But as soon as I run through a solid state or modeling rig like Iridium it's Fizz-central especially chording.
That's the give and take of great tone I guess
Great vid! And thanks for Kleinulator recommendation. Makes my TwoRock Gainmaster super sweet! ✌🏼
Any time! Glad it worked out!!! As you can see, it's totally needed!
@@VertexEffectsInc Yup! I was messing with the amp for months and not loving the OD channel. Now I just play and love it...no more fussing!
@@DavidLavine amazing!!!!
Why couldn’t you just stick a boss pedal as the first pedal and have it switched off - or on for that matter with the gain turned all the way down and adjust levels with the volume knob?
No because the cable from the SEND will still be seen, in terms of capacitance, before you reach the Boss pedal. Even short lengths of cables coming out of a passive loop can make a big sound difference and becomes like a rolled down tone control on a guitar, way more exaggerated than a long cable in front of the preamp from a guitar or pedal, and the more capacitance seen on the FX Send, the worse it is. Also the Boss pedals don't have compensations for input and output gain, especially the time based effects that you'd presumably put in your loop.
Rola amps claim to use the dumble approach. Do you know if they got it right? Or did they make the same mistake?
Don't know their work but at this point most of the information about how to re-create a Dumble amp is widely available. At the end of the day Dumble's were all custom to a degree but you can make something with the broad strokes with available info.
@@VertexEffectsInc I think they just refered to dumble and far as style and build quality, i'm sure they got the fx loop sorted out. Mike McCready of pearl jam uses them, I doubt he uses the front of his amp for the big pedal board that he has. 👍
You are wrong about Welagen amps. Did you even do any research on his amps?! They have a built in tube buffered effects loop.
Was there a place where I definitively say those amps don't have buffered effects loops...I don't recall that singling them out as not having a buffered effects loop. Presumably there are several amps that have buffered effects loops that weren't mentioned here - the intent of the video isn't to cover every amplifier with a buffered loop but rather speak on the benefits of a buffered effects loop.
@@VertexEffectsInc 35 seconds into this video.
@@jayhernandez8965 I see..there was a photo as an example of a Dumble replica amp. I didn't catch that in the edit. We came up with a list of a several of the replica makers that nail the Dumble approach 1:1 that we planned to use as "b roll" as the video progressed. I don't recall there being any bad faith effort to imply that these amps were poor or not representative to the sound. If he's putting an effects loop in all of his amps, he's ahead of the curve, I always wondered why Dumble didn't do it himself as it became clear that pedals were here to stay.
He got nothing wrong, because there is an entire industry stealing his work. Sound familier!
He wasn’t the first guy to do an active effects loop however, yet I agree he made iconic amps undoubtedly. If there is an Achilles Heel, the passive effects loops is it or not including the active effects loop in the amp. If not then, now for sure.
@@VertexEffectsInc it was the 80's dude, everyone had line level rack mounted effects
And this nobody is also stealing his work hanging from Dumble’s succes doing none sense videos with his name, no one cared in the past about a effects loop and all the legends made it without it, and all the nobodies gear heads struggle with technical issues instead of dedicate to compose and play
Who did the music/beats for this video?
The creator of the music?
Thanks for this video. Thoughts on using a passive effects loop with an RJM Mastermind PBC10 with loops 7-10, which have a buffer on either end? I'm actually currently experimenting with this with the Two Rock Studio Signature. Delay and reverb seem to sound fine through the effects loop, but I had to put my Strymon Lex in loop 7 cuz I had nowhere else to put it. It sounds dark, muddy and just plain crappy. Would one of the solutions mentioned in the video help, or am I better off bypassing the effects loop and running everything in front?
Gordon, I don't think you can add gain or cut gain on the buffers on the RJM, and you also will see the full capacitance on the Send cable before you even get to the pedalboard, and this won't be the same as the impact as going into the front of the amp because of its location in the signal path. The more capacitance seen on the output of the send, the more it acts like a tone control on a guitar, rolling off the high end in a VERY exaggerated way on most circuits. This is what the Buffered Effects Loop alternatives I proposed basically need to live at the amp with the shortest cables possible so you can mitigate the loss as much as possible, then you can use longer cables out of the active effects loop box to go to the pedalboard. This is an ideal box, the Kleinulator, for almost all the Two Rock amps. I think only the TS1 has an active loop as I recall.
So why did he made his amps with fox loop if people didn’t used pedals that much ? So maybe he is to blame.
Nobody can ever know for sure...
Always struggled around fx loops. Great video tho👍
Glad it helped!
Moral of the story, don't use an FX loop 🤷🏼♂️
Or use one with an active effects loop or Dumbleator
@@VertexEffectsInc Haha that too
🥰🥰🥰
Fuq yeah, everything in the front
@@stonersquash old school!
To me they sound better with the buffered effects loop. Sounds like it makes it darker and smoother. Maybe it's a happy mistake
Dumble's sound better or amps in general? Glad you figured out what's best for you!
@@VertexEffectsInc dumble clones, I've never played a real one but I've had a ceriatone ods and a carol ann JB100 and both sounded better with the buffered effects loop in for some reason. I'm not sure if it was the extra gain stage or tube or what but I made them more mellow and dark and warmer
@@extramolestrial5417 are they tube or solid state loops?
@@VertexEffectsInc tube buffer, I've used the c-lator by ceriatone and the vox V941 and both have different sounds but both do similar things by mellowing out the sound and giving a smooth dark dynamic feel, it's not drastic but it's enough to know when it's missing if you know what I mean. I would be super interested if Vertex had a build for one. I know bludotone, two rock, van weelden, ceriatone and Fuchs all make them and probably all sound a little different and vary drastically in price for some reason
I think the Klienulator already does a great job for this. I like solid state for this application as said in the video. I don’t know I could bring much to the table
If Dumble got it wrong, so did Matchless so did Dr. Z and Nolatone as well, and many others. I wouldn’t say we got it “wrong”. We want to offer a way to get the signal out and back in without adding the complexity of a buffer circuit. It’s not ideal for all loop applications but if you’re not using the loop a lot, we don’t want to impose the extra circuitry. Many offer a buffered loop, like the Metro Amps zero loss, which I have put added to some of my Nolatone amps. IME, many folks like having the option to access the signal, but in practice don’t do it that often, instead putting affects into the front front of the amp.
Howdy Nolatone! I remember seeing Carl Verheyen many years ago at your booth at the LA Amp Show. Cool amps! I can only hypothesize Dumble's intent, but I don't think it was about complexity given the time he spent on his amps to turn one around, and that he ultimately ended up with a product to address this issue. Evidently, he recognized this shortcoming, and hence the Dumbleator. I think a lot of companies in the 90's felt the pressure from the inertia and topspin from the 1980's - to start having line level outputs from the preamp, or taps off the output transformer padded down to line level for those that were running outboard rack gear into other power amps. I've not spoken to Mike at Dr. Z, but I've read interviews with Mark Sampson about this and seen some exchanges of his that lead me to believe this may be the reason. I don't think they (Mike and Mark) envisioned pedals becoming as pervasive as they have from when Matchless amps were first conceived, presumably in the late 80's or early 90's, before they really broke into the amp market. I think his approach might be different if Matchless were just getting into the market now as the passive effects loop would be pretty worthless for those that would want to use pedals between the preamp and power amp. If you're planning to run effects in the loop, you need a buffered effects loop if you want to maintain the most possible transparency. In particular, as solid state loop, if you want it to be as neutral as possible. As an amp builder, you know better than me, passive effects loops cannot drive any capacitance on the output without degrading the tone. Every cable has a capacitance, and the more capacitance you have (either by way of longer cables, or higher capacitance cables), the worse it gets and becomes a tone control, like rolling down the tone knob on a guitar. If you have a passive loop, and want to be able to use even 2-3 pedals in there, you should have something like this Dumbleator type device to isolate the impedance of the devices via buffers, and provide level controls for the send and return to accommodate the different input levels from different effects types from line to instrument. A passive loop, by contrast, is going to have quite a bit of loss from the send to the first pedal, especially if it's on a pedalboard and going 10ft from amp to the pedal input. That's already going to kill the tone considerably. Many of these passive loops are still coming out line level, then hitting instrument level effects, and going to the return of the loop instrument level - being driven by a pedal with who knows what output Z, could be 100 ohms (good), could be 1K (not great), could be 10K (awful) - talk about suboptimal. Also depending on where you loop is in relationship to the amplifier signal path, you might be able to do some compensation for the input gain on the send with the Master Volume so at least you're not clipping your first pedal in the loop, but it's still a huge compromise and will have some upstream consequence on your settings you created before you engaged your loop. With no standards for loops, their impedances, and line/instrument level adjustments - if you plan to use a loop, I'd only consider a buffered loop, preferably solid state. I think Friedman does a decent one as you mentioned, I think Mesa Boogie does too, as does Paul Rivera. I'm sure there are others. Thanks for the comment, and thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc WRT complexity, in the case of a Dumble, perhaps, but in the case of Matchless, with the point-to-point build, more likely a concern. In my case I offer the unbuffered loop because I can offer it as an inexpensive option. Those who don't anticipate using the loop a LOT may not want to pay the extra $$. There's a bit of confusion about how loops work out there though, so your video provides some nice insight, regardless of why an unbuffered lop is or is not used.
NICE! Dann Huff instructional video backing tracks
A must have on any video
I don’t use a send and return.
Then you’re all set as is
@@VertexEffectsInc looking to make my old soldered cables, the solderless ones I’m using are the weak link in my chain. Do you sell the ends and cable?
once you get serious about amps and are at pro level you simply dont use effect loops on your amps. you either run that stuff before the amp or you run it post amp into your main mixer
This seems more anecdotal. This has not been my experience.
@@VertexEffectsInc no big names running anything into their effects loop. all time based effects are front of house
I am with you John
What's your opinion of the Granger Ultimate FX Loop Kit, and would you recommend one for a Dumble Clone?
Not aware of it.
Mason, you taught me buffer religion. I've never looked back. I got a Mesa High-wire for me "in front" pedal board an it changed my life (well....). My question: can you use a buffer like a High-wire for the effects loop, too? I know it doesn't have the send/receive adjustment that a Dumbalator or Kleinulator has, but it adjusts the impedance accordingly.
No, you need something that can deal with the line level output and attenuate it as needed for line or instrument level and also make up any gain on the return if needed. It won't work for this application - only for the pedalboard side in front of the preamp.
@@VertexEffectsInc Got it - makes perfect sense.
BTW, I used to own a Fuchs (Dumble clone). Andy puts those send/receive knobs on the effects loop. The only one I know that builds them in.
@@ggavalakis there are a few guys but it's more rare, especially of the orthodox Dumble guys.
the sss have same problem？
I’m fairly sure most Dumbles have passive loops.
I think Dumble's biggest mistake was rather taking part on that horrendous Henry Kaiser "instructional!" video.
I am selling a 1964/65 Fender Super Reverb modded by Dumble in Santa Cruz, CA in in the early 70s. Any suggestions or inquiries are welcome. Photos, serial numbers of amp etc.
Have you got a scientific analysis of the signal effect rather than a rambling lecture on your perceived hearing ?
Great video. I like that you don't just use the theme as "click bait" but also to instruct on the nature of effects loops and how to solve the problem of passive effects loops. One thing that I think that isn't accurate is how people used delay and reverb in the 1980s. Rack units abounded (ADA/Lexicon/TC Electronic) were part of every studio musician's gear and many live rigs in the 1980s. Even some of my high school friends "shelled" out for them. While early adopters like David Lindley and Lowell George may not have employed them, from the beginning (the most influential adopters) of their use, Robben Ford and particularly Larry Carlton had need of the Dumbleator from the beginning of their use of these amps. Larry had a video where he talked about his rack set up in that era. - Dumble owners also often seem to prefer their Dumble amps with the Dumbleator employed even with nothing in the effects loop.
I don’t know if anything here disqualifies what you’ve said. The Dumblator comes out later in the lineage, as a response, I believe, to the increased use of effects after the preamp and rack gear. But I also walk it back to see that there’s no way he could’ve anticipated it that would’ve been the shift or the future application, so if that redesigning the entire chassis of the amplifier, this was the easiest solution to address using line level processing Effects between the preamp and power amp with the right signal conditioning.
Hi Mason, thanks a lot for that info! How can i know if a fx loop is bypassed or not?
An easy way to tell is just put a 10 foot cable from send to return - if you get a lot of loss and you don’t have any controls on the back of the amp to compensate for the levels on send or return, it’s likely passive.
Precious. A scam artist who hasn't built anything original and sold me a repackaged BBE Wah that didn't even work (we had a video call together Mason), has the balls to call out a guy who's not even with us. (RIP). To make a few clicks I assume.
Wish more people knew about this scam artist's past. Vertex is a joke.
No demo?
Of???
Capacitance honestly adds to the tone, less capacitance from my experimentation sounds worse and thinner
Depends on the type of capacitance. Mica vs. ceramic vs. film...they all have different sounds even at the same value. The same goes for cables and how they're made. Also where is the capacitance??? After the guitar? After a pedal? All these things make a difference. Try running a 50 foot cable in your passive effects loop without any effect in there...I bet you're not gonna like cable capacitance there.
I never knew that you lose more tone in the FX loop than you do at the amp input. Good information. That could explain why every time I've tried putting stuff in my FX loop, I alway have ended up taking it out and putting it back in front of the amp. My only other thought is, why is this video specifically addressing only Dumbles? - Aren't the FX loops in 99% of amplifiers, passive?
mk win - if it's passive, that's typically true. There are some caveats to that, depending on the location of the FX Loop. Sometimes after the master volume, the FX can be compensated for with the master volume to adjust the gain going into the FX send, however it will change the parameters of the amplifier and what you have in front of it, so that isn't always a good thing or a workable thing for guitar players since they compromise the non-effects loop sound when they involve the FX loop. If it's an active loop, like what I propose here - and many companies build in an active effects loop in their amps nowadays - it's not a problem and you can pretty much put what you want in the loop.
Sure, lets talk about Howard's mistakes and get the attention off of your mistakes Mason!!
Watch the video - you’ve clearly prejudged the video without exploring the contents.
@@VertexEffectsInc Au contraire, you've clearly prejudged that I haven't watch it already. The fact that you're still around amazes me. I would be more interested in a video on how to be a successful con-artist. Now that is something you have experience in. Oh and lets talk about contents. Do the research on your own content. The amp you have pictured at time stamp 00:38. yeah that builder does address that issue and does have a tube buffered effects loop.
@@ricklittleton7677 calm down buddy... Mason asked forgiveness and did his best to fix the issues. I'd trust someone who has made a mistake and learnt from it over someone who is a constant pretender like Josh at JHS.
BESIDES, this video was made in a respectful manner, I don't think your comment has approached this same standard.
LOLOL... Imagine saying that to him.
Saying what?
@@VertexEffectsInc This is your biggest mistake.... You forgot the title of your video, didn't you?
It should be named a Masonator or Marangellator. :)
Make me the business cards and I’ll use em
Hi Mason great video, I take it that most fx loops are passive from reading some comments about levels and controls on the amp?
A lot of them are, however in more recent years some companies have started to invest more time in trying to figure out a better quality version, but it’s still few and far between
Crystal lettuce guy made a mistake?
Well...not really, hindsight is 20/20 right...
@@VertexEffectsInc Haha, definitely.
👍👍👍
Why does dumble seem to stay hidden. Although the one RUclips video of him with Kaiser should be a comedy sketch and not a real video
Only he really knows
Yeah, Henry Kaiser will go down as one of the best players of all time
Take a look at a Jet City 22C schematic.................Itsa Dator, but slitly different n works WAY better imho...
Original slo 100 fx loop was bad for pedals.
Yes, I remember - I remember John Suhr used to offer a mod for this way back when, to fix that
I would think if you could afford a Dumble you wouldn't use the fx loop.
How would you use delay or reverb?
@@VertexEffectsInc Probably outboard through a PA (or recording desk), otherwise the natural reverb and delay of a large room would be fine.
@@icarusi hmmm...don't think so based on most guys that have used it. Typically using rack delays/reverbs. Robben and Larry were all TC 2290's. The were forced to use the active effects loop rack from Dumble to use them.
@@VertexEffectsInc I'd just do the same as RF in the studio, just feed it back throught the monitors and FOH. I've never been keen on the sound of fx loops. I prefer to either tap-off after the preamp, and take it elsewhere, or mike up and do the same. I prefer time and chorus fx not to go just into the power amp. Either use in front or after the whole amp. I'm ok with fx loops in solid state or hybrid amps (with ss power amps).
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiHnbiOsNPsAhUQLBoKHfG3ChcQFjADegQIDRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegearpage.net%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fthreads%2Fhow-robben-uses-his-dumble-these-days.2003712%2F&usg=AOvVaw12liouQWUs5h3HAO2rI-4r
Actually if you think about it he was a smart business man because he would make more money 💵 💵 selling additional hardware. The stand alone Dumblelator.
However, to my knowledge he had a pretty meagre existence and never really accumulated much wealth despite having lots of opportunities to cash in.
@@VertexEffectsInc FYF ( for youurs foortuunnes, yeh thinkit over AS H, ass in work/busines.
sory,just bought a 10yr young one in the net, Love ,pedal😍😍K lama kazoo! ugly...hows everybodys "vertex pedals lasting ? 10 years? luv K😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎😎
Oh come onnnnnnn
Thanks for watching...let me know where the analysis goes wrong
Dumble built most of his amps in the 80's when everyone was using line level rack mount effects that didn't need buffered loops. When pedals became more commonplace, he then built the dumbleator, a tube buffered effects loop that you could use with the amp. So no, Dumble didn't get it wrong, you did Mason
Fariz - thanks for watching and for the comment. This is mentioned in the video almost exactly as you've stated it. I think I use the words "Dumble couldn't have foreseen the pervasiveness of pedals [back in the 70's]..." in response to the need to attenuate the line level down to -20 for common pedals. Is it possible you jumped to conclusions based on the titling (which admittedly has some "RUclips Hyperbole") before completing the entire video? I am, however, curious as to why Dumble never built in the Dumbleator into the amp after pedals were clearly here to stay. This will always be something I wonder about.
@@VertexEffectsInc well, I watched the video knowing full well it was a clickbait title. However, you're implying that not having a buffered effects loop is 'wrong', which I understand as you are a pedal maker, and see it from the point of view of someone who wants to use pedals with an amp. But seeing he's an amp maker, and his clientele were a lot of pro/session guitarists in the eighties with rack/studio effects (the dumbleator being a rack sized device on itself) I personally don't think he ever gave a shit if it was inconvenient to use pedals with his amps 😆 (same reason why he didn't build the dumbleator into the amp I guess)
@@farizshakir2252 I'm not so much saying it's "wrong" so much as I'm saying it makes it difficult to get the sound of the amplifier with a guitar cable plugged into it (presuming you like the sound of the amp alone) unless you buffer the effects loop. If you plan to use the effects loop, not buffering it will present a myriad of variables for the end user to contend with and will relegate players to using a select number of devices that can accept +4 (line level) and have very short cables going to/from the fx loop to minimize the loss. Of it's most known users - Robben Ford, Larry Carlton, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Lowell George, Eric Johnson - for the most part, they were very abbreviated with effects in the loop (Robben and Larry using a TC 2290 most notably) or no effects in the loop at all (SRV, Lowell, EJ). A case could be made for EJ I suppose during the Bradshaw era with the SSS amps but I think that if that were the "Dry" it would have used a line out box to tap off the output transformer and get the line level with some volume adjustment to feed the rack effects. I don't recall seeing a Dumbleator there. I think a case could be made to support the passive loop back in the 70's part of the early 80's - but clearly the Dumbleator was a response to not only rack gear, but pedals. The Dumbleator could, as I understand it, go down to -20 for pedal level. Why even make a Dumbleator if your rack gear already can accept line level if using external effects was unimportant? Clearly he was trying to address the changing terrain of pedal and rack applications after the preamp section of the amplifier and give players control on the level hitting the input of their wet effects as well as making up the gain on the output coming back into the FX return. Of course this is all conjecture...we can't really know, but it's fun to theorize why this might have been. I also wonder why he hasn't gone to a solid state loop on the more modern amps - that seems like an obvious thing to maintain what the preamp is doing without adding more color from the wet effects with more tube stages (and more noise from the additional tubes).
Hello Mason, a good solution. Thanks. BTW I was at a Larry Carlton Clinic back in 1994 at the old West L.A. music. Larry had his Dumble amp with him, and Howard was there himself.
Larry opened up the floor to questions for Howard, and right away the issue of the Dumbleator came up. Even then some guitarists had questions about the passive effects loop issue, and Dumble’s attempt to provide a piece of basically outboard gear to turn it into a active buffered loop. I can only surmise from Howard’s rather mumbled and muddled answer regarding the need for an active effects loop on his amps that it wasn’t his favorite subject.
Larry Carlton said nothing about the subject, so I don’t know if his rig used any effects pedals in his Dumble amp loop. But I do recall that at that time, and for several years prior, that many guitar players were using a Yamaha SPX-90 rack effects unit (as was I), and the only way to do that was with an amp equipped with an active effects loop, like a Mesa as you mentioned. So I would suppose that the lack of a buffered effects loop issue in Dumble amps was made known to him probably in the later 1980’s by the many first call L.A. studio guitarists that used his gear. In my view his external“Dumbleator” active buffer was a “Kluge” solution to offer his existing customers. He should have upgraded his amps to an active loop by the early 1990’s.
This is a great story! I think he didn't foresee this application as I said...and the Dumbleator was a response to that. I wish we could've seen this included in the amp at some point, but to my knowledge it was only available as a separate device.
@@VertexEffectsInc Dumble was very particular about his amp designs, so I’m not surprised that he didn’t want to alter it by including a buffered effects loop.
I've seen Larry's "Rig Rundown". He had him a dumblator. But does a buffer affect the tone of the amp? Maybe he couldn't get what he was looking for with the buffered loop? Are those even legitimate questions?
@@deanmlshredder If one is using +4 db rack effects unit, an active loop would be needed.
In the late 1980’s the “Bradshaw” refrigerator rack was the effects chain of choice with most of the top session guitarists of that time.
Keep in mind that most guitar pedals tended to be noisy things back then. Especially with them running in the typical series chain configuration.
So many studio guitar players, and even live players, started using rack mounted effects at that time. They were very quiet. And many were MIDI controlled, so a bank type foot switch would allow players like Andy Summers or the Edge to quickly call up and preset combination they wanted.
@@Johnrack sure. But the question remains... Could the buffered effects loop Have changed the tone of the amp to a degree that Dumble didn't want it integrated and left it up to the customer by offering an external solution? I heard Eddie Van Halen left the 5150 without reverb because even when it was off just having integrated into the amp changed it's tone and feel. Maybe Dumble liked the sound better without it and gave everyone the choice of having the pure tone of the amp the way he liked it. The world will never know. Lol.