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Love your video! You got a new subscriber here! By the way can you talk about the difference between having ABS in the front only vs. having ABS on both wheels? Is it really necessary?
@@paule5812 I know and putting a switch in for the headlight and disabling the switch for the side stand are all easy but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
@MrPlopfest and that's a great reason for me to use a headlight...but it still should be my choice. Here is an interesting fact that you can research; if every automobile passenger had a helmet on then more lives would be saved then if every motorcyclist didnt wear a helmet.
I agree that for off-road use, ABS can get in the way. On the street, however, I can’t think of a single circumstance where it gets in the way. And, yes, maybe 0.1% of street riders than actually out brake an ABS bike on dry pavement, but 0% can out brake ABS in any other circumstance, particularly roads where traction is rapidly a varying due to interleaved wet and dry pavement, for example.
Agreed. Pro riders can out brake ABS on a track in perfect conditions (good pavement, time to anticipate, etc), anyone who gets surprised and needs to brake in an emergency situation gets outperformed by ABS
This doesnt help lol, but in a car it is absolutely faster below 80kph to lock the front wheels. If the shortest fastest stop in a straight line is whats right for the situation of course Over 80kph the grip v inertia equation goes the other way.
The Mongoose No, it is never good to lock the wheels when stopping on a hard surface. Sliding (dynamic) friction is always less than non sliding (static) friction. That is why dragsters never want to spin their tires during a drag race. As soon as the tires begin to spin, traction goes down dramatically and the opponent pulls away quickly. Spinning tires during acceleration is functionally equivalent to locking and sliding a tire during deceleration. Now, if you are talking reasonably deep snow or sand where the locked tire can “dam” up material in from of the tire, then locking the wheels can have an advantage and allow a faster stop. ABS is a detriment in such conditions.
LTVoyager now sorry but it was tested a long time ago when abs was being commonly introd. Inertia mate. Which is why spinning a wheel is slower in a straight line. Inertia.
The Mongoose you need to go back to physics class for a refresher. Friction coefficient is what gets you stopped, and kinetic (=sliding) friction is always lower than static friction. Exception is gravel or snow where a sliding tire can build up a wedge in front which helps with deceleration. Inertia is just another word for the stored kinetic energy which is independent of the braking mechanism.
I fully understand the desire to turn off ABS off road but, the first street bike with ABS I had was a 2000 BMW R1100RS and now I won’t buy a new street bike without it. Wet oily pavement, streets covered with wet leaves in the fall, morons on the phone in front of you or turning across your path in the rain, ABS has saved my ass more times than I care to think about. I’ve only been riding for 44 years, but this is one “new trick” this “old dog” appreciates. 😉
I have no ABS, but if it indeed gets mandatory by law I guess at some point in time prices must come down generally for the system if every brand and model simply has one... ABS saves so many cars, I guess it's time to really start saving bikers too. I only had a problem with brakes once, never had problems controlling the front brake as I'm used since a kid in bicycles but the problem is controlling the rear brake for me in a dangerous situation. Once I was on a road that fits only 1 car (one way road) and I was only at around 50KM\h and after a turn I get a BMW coming in reverse to me on a tight road, tight turn with no visibility and in the opposite way of the road which for sure I would never expected it. As soon as I saw it full rear brake with gentle front brake, I didn't fall or hit the car but was close to scratching at least however the rear tyre wasn't doing anything at all as it was fully locked since the first second I saw the car, bam full rear brake and I don't think I could ever control it if I get any more similar situation... Shit might happen at any second and in my opinion it's hard to even know WTF we are going to do unless being there. On a track while racing that's all different for example as everyone knows the track, what to expect and are always 100% focused but on every day riding, everything can happen and sometimes is a split second and it's all gone just like that.
It save me countless times as i live in thailand manny things are jumping out at me on the road.It is not just crazy drivers it's dogs,cats,and buffalows that like the streets.Your life is worth the extra money,to me all bikes should have abs!
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland. Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping. I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty. Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US). I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position". No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph. I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off. I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper. The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS. Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
I had a light that went from green, to yellow, to red in a matter of 3 seconds, if I didn't have abs I would have slid right through the intersection because of how fast I had to brake.
Off-road or at the track, I do understand people not wanting ABS in their way. On the street however, with all the random variables like rain, puddles, oil, road paint, sand... if you think you can always outperform an ABS system in every circumstance, you are just being cocky. (When I say "you", I'm not talking specifically to you Lemmy 🙂)
@John Because I'm a fallible human being, and if I do get careless and screw up (or otherwise don't recognize that I have trees blocking my line of sight, or some other subtle safety hazard), there's a chance the brakes will save my life and I'll properly learn a valuable lesson that turned out to be a lot cheaper than it would have been had I not had a bike that brakes better than I do.
@John why would I want a bike to be better than my braking ability? That's like asking a person who's a 5 why they married an 8?! How many people have been killed or injured because they had ABS versus how many have been killed or injured because they didn't. If you or anyone else is better than ABS on a road (not a track) with its thousands of variables, then by all means, don't use it. But don't try to influence every other rider that they'll be 2 wheeled gods if they ditch ABS.
1. If only we'd be honest, most of us aren't at the level of skill required to ride like a pro in a panic situation. Seriously, it's not easy to override the lizard brain. 2. Way cheaper than a crash. 3. Yeah, freedom is dope, and I support it. Also, dang, Lemmy, looking good, keep it up!
There are No argument or reason good enough to not have ABS on the streets. Unless you're a professional racer, you will Not outbreak a bike with ABS. I do stoppies on my MT-09 even while leaning backwards with no ABS intervention. So i can't stop any faster with or without ABS. So the only time you'll feel the difference is when you slam on the break too fast. At that point ABS Actually saving lives. And with more and more bikes coming out with lean sensitive ABS, it's getting even safer. Offroad is a completely different story. There should Always be a way to turn of ABS. At the very least on the rear wheel on bikes designed to ride offroad at any time. Even if it's an adventure bike.
Not true at all. If you ride without any rider aids, you are in charge and are in fact responsible for your own mistakes and for your own life. That means that when on a bike without rider aids, you will instinctivly go slower and be more alert.
I once had a buddy tell me he could go 3 rounds with the heavy weight boxing champion. That's what I think of when people say they can beat ABS... NO FUCKING WAY !! You will be unconscious 😂😂
Well if you never speed, always have good space cushions, never get distracted, have fighter pilot reaction times and the good lord with you ABS is not needed on the street.
@@cobalt_sabre2735 Braking isn't the only option though. There is also swerving. Also, practicing emergency braking can get you to be quite good without ABS. My bike doesn't have ABS, and at first, I was greatly concerned, but with experience, I've been able to get quite good at braking in an emergency. In fact, I'm more concerned about being rear ended, which is why I usually resort to the swerve, since the last thing I want is to be stuck between the car that just cut me off, and a car behind me making me into a sandwich between two cars.
@@cobalt_sabre2735 btw, that wasn't an argument against ABS. I think ABS is great to have. I wish by bike had it, but I have gotten quite good with my braking that it would be more of a peace of mind than a necessity at this point. The thing about being on a motorcycle though is the threat isnt just not crashing into things but things crashing into you. While ABS might save you from crashing into the idiot that just go out of the parking lot, it will do nothing to stop the idiot behind you from crashing into you. Swerving, on the other hand, might, and that is an essential tool to have, with or without ABS.
@@joemann7971 I agree with your point exactly. What scares me most about the new ABS age is that it seems a lot of new riders are seeing this as a feature rather than an absolute last resort safety mechanism. If you're constantly activating ABS while riding, you either need more training or need to make better choices while riding. 8 hours of training in a good riding class will do more than ABS ever can. To me it's the same as a car, the only time I've ever really ran into ABS is in the snow and ice, and I don't think it's a good idea to ride in those conditions
@@TitanFlare my bike doesn't have ABS so, I had no choice but to learn to brake properly. I tend to swerve when I don't have a lot of time to react and brake properly. I'm from California, so when I see a car stop fairly quickly, my first instinct is to swerve into a lane splitting position and apply the brakes, which generally gives me a huge space cushion. I always stop to match their speed before so start lane splitting to give the drivers in front a chance to see me.
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland. Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping. I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty. Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US). I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position". No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph. I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off. I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper. The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS. Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
Hi Akiko. ABS brakes don't stop you the fastest way possible just by yanking them, no matter how good they are. You have to modulate the brakes in a way where your front forks don't bottom out hard and then bounce like a pogo stick. When your front loses traction, you lose almost all your braking. Then as your front comes back down, wham, it bites hard, but then you bottom it out and bounce it, again. And ABS is 100% doing exactly what it's supposed to do. On that Harley, you gotta do the weight transfer more smoothly to load the front just that one time and to keep it there. Braking takes a bit of skill and focused learning. Once you've learned (and most people don't ever learn. We're too dumb and lazy), ABS is not a big deal in the vast majority of your riding conditions. But since most people can't learn this, ABS will save us dummies, sometimes. Like it did for you, here.
If you ride only on good dry roads you won't need it much. But city riding over white lines, rails, manhole covers, rain, oil, rocks, low temperatures etc. it can save you, your ride and someone else's live. I've fallen locking the front wheel on wet highway with 160km/h and ABS could have prevented that.
ABS saved my ass one morning when it was still a little wet out and I hit a slick part of a freshly asphalted turn lane. It felt like I was on ice but I allowed enough distance when coming up to the car waiting for the arrow, was engine braking and applied the brakes evenly but nothing. ABS light started flashing and bike went loose and shimmied. I felt the ABS working, didn’t panic and all was well. Heart rate was way up but I completely believe the ABS saved me from going into the trunk of that car or locking up the brakes and losing control.
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland. Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping. I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty. Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US). I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position". No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph. I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off. I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper. The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS. Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
to my thinking, ABS is all about risk mitigation if there is something I can do to make my ride safer I will. Also it has zero impact on me enjoying my ride
@@Zalazaar Bro you ever used ABS? You'll know when ABS kicks in and when it didn't. I was panic breaking that time and there's absolutely no way I could've handled it without ABS help.
even pro's can't out brake a ABS system proven many times all ready you have to be a MOTO GP Champion to do that im not sure everycorner is full of them
He meant off-road riders. It's easier to back in an enduro than braking and turning. But yea, most of pro enduro riders don't bother with ABS and just switch it off/rip it out completely, so video's argument is invalid.
i agree. But to me that is not the point. ABS works well, that is certain. I can do without it and have been doing so since the early 1970's. As an option I'm all for it. As a self wrencher though I find it unnecessarily complicated and too costly for the benefits. The costs of ABS repair OFTEN exceed the cost of an otherwise fine machine.
@@amrev2.020 all my bikes are abs bikes since 2010 and it never add anyting to the repaire as the abs system on all of them worked like a charm , never had a issue on them and work on them like all the other bikes its not complicated at all
@@amrev2.020 spot on. Id rather see more riders getting airbag vests than ABS. Vigilant riding should mitigate *most* of the need for ABS, just like driving a car
I would prefer motorcycle companies to offer a different variation of their production line. ABS replaces progressive brake pressure skill. Throttle control replaces progressive throttle roll. Launch control for a lack of throttle, rpm, and clutch skill. Wheelie control for a lack of throttle discipline. Slipper clutch for a lack of overall riding skill and discipline. Clutchless upshift/downshift, because, at this point, why not! How about one line offers all these training wheel assists, and the other line offers an upgraded suspension, brake, and wheel package. MotoGP isn’t a good enough excuse. I’d love to see racing sacrifice lap times for unassisted riding skill.
If you only ride your bike when it's sunny and beautiful outside, on good paved roads then you might be inclined to say ABS is not necessary. On the other hand there's many people out there that *must* use their bikes on a daily basis no matter the climate condition or road surface, and that is where ABS shines and saves lives, you people in the US have It way too easy to understand how chaotic motorcycle riding can get in other countries.
After one scare without ABS, now I won't and have not bought a new motorcycle without it. It might save my life and that possibility is enough for me to have it.
If I have this right, ABS prevents skidding. If I have this wrong, negate the following. As someone who wants to learn traditional maneuvering and implement the benefits, such as brake-skidding, this could be dangerously counterintuitive.
As a new rider I would have preferred ABS on my motorcycle (fuel injection would have been nice too), but I couldn’t justify it as most beginner bikes with ABS seemed to be outside of my price range for a first bike. Besides, both my wife and I took the CMSP (California Motorcycle Safety Program) together and were each getting a bike, so economically it didn’t make sense. In the end she got a 2007 Honda Rebel 250, and I got a 2001 Honda Shadow VTX 600. At the speeds we’re riding at, about 45mph max, they seem to be working out okay. Eventually, when we’re ready for highway riding, we’ll look into more powerful bikes, with ABS. For now, these non-ABS beginners seem to be just fine.
Riding a motorcycle is a high risk activity. In the past you had no choice to reduce risk. To be honest the riding community is filled with ignorant bliss and I started riding in th 1980's where such risks were shrugged off as price to pay to enjoy motorcycling or not at all. ABS is even more important to new riders because your first big mistake could be your last. Studies prove ABS reduces death risk by 25% on a motorcycle. I would argue affordability is a weak excuse and my response is then you can't really afford a motorcycle or you devalue you life and well-being to take a unnecessary incremental risk. As an analogy would you go to a doctor who practices only medicine from 30 years ago to save some money? My most recent two motorcycles and every motocycle I buy in future will have minimum 5 or 6-axis IMU providing cornering ABS and traction control. If I cant afford a motorcycle with those safety features then I'll stop riding motorcycles.
@@kannermwJesus dude, if you you want the thing to operate itself just buy a tesla. You can enjoy your orange slices and capri sun from the driver's seat without ever putting your hands on the wheel.
@@hung-lodongdynasty You just exposed your ignorance at the highest level possible. Moto-GP riders have been using such aids for over a decade and they are professionals riding in a controlled environment on a track that is nothing like the street. A bike with rider aids does not drive itself but it can potentially save you from death or seriously injury when the unexpected happens. They will not protect you from your own arrogance and stupidity. If you think as a rider you are always 100% attentive or have mystical superhuman moto skills then maybe let Darwins law take it's course the world would be much better offmwithout you.
Arguments can be made against any safety feature. Seatbelts can cause death if your car goes into the drink and you're not able to undo them. Lights can blind oncoming traffic. Brakes can cause others to rear-end your bike. Regular maintenance requires additional expenditures. Riding gear adds extra cost to riding. You have the freedom to choose. You don't want a bike with ABS, buy one that doesn't have it, but don't complain that a particular brand/model comes standard with ABS. Even if it becomes law, you can still get used bikes that didn't come with it, or as some suggested, pull the ABS fuse. By the way, even on a bike with ABS, you can stop the bike faster on your own than with ABS assist. If you're that much in control you can apply brakepressure without locking up a wheel, and your stopping distance will be shorter than when you do lock up the wheels and ABS needs to intervene.
I let the talk about abs convince me I didn't need it for my first bike and regretted it. After having a handful of emergency stop situations, I've found it's difficult to maximize stopping power on both tires in a panic stop situation, the rear is very easy to slide and you have to reduce pressure as weight moves forward, the front tire requires progressive increased pressure and if it slides you have a fraction of a second to catch it. It's the confidence of knowing that you can apply the brakes hard to keep you clear of trouble regardless of surface conditions. You can't count on clear perfect pavement conditions on the street, and ABS can electronically control for that better than most human riders. The cost is offset by increased resale value, lowered insurance rates, and reduced chance of a drop. Motorcycling is already dangerous enough, If you are on the dirt fine or track then great, for street duty I think it's ideal.
As an older rider I like the technology that helps me ride safely. Triumph Speedmaster with ABS and traction control was something I felt made this bike my best choice.
Exactly. If new safety can can keep people riding longer and encourage more timid newies to give riding a boost in confidence to try motorcycles than that can only mean good things for all of us.
In 2019, there is no reason for a street bike not to have ABS. The arguments against ABS being present on street bikes is down right ignorant and stupid. I have heard the same argument of "Freedom of choice" against wearing helmets, nothing but more American BS, as if naming shale gas to Freedom gas wasn't stupid enough. Jeez.
Here's something else: manufacturers use ABS as an excuse to make you bring your bike into the dealer to change brake fluid. Only they can acquire (or afford) the "special tool" that cycles the abs pump to do a full fluid flush. I assume there is no technical reason there couldn't be a "brake fluid change mode" activated by the user to cycle the pump for at home fluid changes. Personally I just keep fluid cycling through the system by doing frequent flushes and making sure the abs gets activated once in a while by braking hard on gravel.
That is really all you need to do. Flush regularly. Every two years. Activate the abs pump now and again. It's actually pretty cool when you slam I the brakes and the tires just keep on turning.
Brembo ABS saved my arsh many times on my 2017 HD Street Glide Special. Damn DEER, turkeys and $H!TH%@DS on their dang smartphones. Even jacked up my front rotors where both had to be replaced because I did a hecklacious panic stop but saved my arsh. It works and it works very well on pavement. I'm typing this today as a testament.
Second :'D Up at 5:30 am for no good reason, always enjoy a new revzilla vid. I prefer to have ABS and I recommend it for my family and friends. In a panic stop without practice and no ABS you're most likely locking those tires up and increasing overall stopping distance if not taking a spill altogether. Better safe than sorry. Good breaking technique will not have ABS jumping on, but it does take time practicing with your bike to start to know those limits of braking.
I know a few people who rely on abs and traction control over actual skill, they scream up to corners, jam on the brakes and just let the computer get them round the bend rather than judging what to do themselves.
@@BTrain-is8ch I agree. They have no smoothness or flow to their riding. Some people have never had bikes without abs. They've never had to ride without a safety net.
I mean I get your point, but if someone’s new to riding and live in cold weather, traction control is sorta important because of the cold temps. It’s better to use traction control until you feel comfortable to take it off than to sit there take it off and have some real bad spills.
@@dongambino5308 a lot of those people wouldn't ever turn them off though. Having something with decent tyres and a sensible amount of power as well as a sensible approach to riding to your conditions would be far more beneficial I feel.
My 2012 Ultra has it, I have had it activate a few times. I really appreciated on a long trip in a panic stop I feel without it I would have gone down because I had a handful of front brakes. I am a very experienced rider. I have had a number of bikes without it older sportbikes and a Honda Magna. I am older and I like the fact it's there. I seldom feel it doing its thing but like I said one time I know it saved my bacon.
*When most riders come out of a close call on their bikes, we call it part of the riding experience and learn from it.* *When most riders can't come out of a close call unscathed, we need to call it a design flaw and fix that.*
I'm definitely a fan of ABS when I was researching riding I didnt like that if I grab too much brake it can send me flying in the air. Then I found out ABS on cheaper bikes was only a 200 dollar upgrade so it was well worth the added safety as I'm a new rider!
Off road ABS "OFF". On road you will have ha hard time beating the ABS for stopping distance and control. Just watch some youtube and see how many lock the front wheel in a panic stop and dump the bike over. For all of the "I only use the rear brakes" your stopping distance is way past the impact point of any panic stop.
I've had both brakes lock up while doing emergency stop training, it's not an automatic wipe-out(I never wiped out), but it does mean you have to let go off the front brake and start over, which isn't really something you want to do in an emergency situation. My bike has ABS, it was however malfunctioning due to low battery for a while, fixed it with a charger.
After 12 years spent refining my braking technique on the street, I am getting my first bike with ABS, and I have complete confidence that it will outperform my absolute best, any time I need it to.
I owned a 2003 BMW K1200RS. It was equipped with the most complicated ABS system known to man. It required a yearly flush that took the dealer over two hours to flush. It could be done by an owner who is a glutton for punishment with special tools and tons of knowledge. If the pump was allowed to seize, you were looking at shelling out several thousand dollars. Eventually, I sold the bike because of the complex ABS system. I then went to buy a 2018 Suzuki SV650. It came with or without ABS. I chose the non-ABS version. I can now flush and bleed my brakes in under thirty minutes and there’s no possibility that I’ll need to shell out several thousand dollars in the future. I’m a happy camper. BTW, the SV650 is a great bike!
Please do a test with recent sportbike with a professional track rider. There's some comparisons on RUclips but most date from 10 years ago (electronic aids have come a long way since!). I'd like to see the very latest technology used by a pro rider and see how it stacks up to pure talent with no ABS (one pass in the dry and one in the wet). Thanks!
Speedytrip, it’s been done. The results can be summed up as follows: If the rider doesn’t lock the brakes (threshold braking or less), there is no difference between the bike with or without ABS. If the rider *does* lock the brakes (greater than threshold braking), the bike with ABS will stop more quickly, and without loss of control.
Speedytrip, I stumbled across one about a year and a half ago when I was prepping for my MSF course. There’s another I stumbled across more recently, but it’s more of an overview comparison between no ABS, ABS, and cornering ABS than a scientific test. I’ll see if I can dig that one up.
What about the argument how new riders relying on ABS will be at a disadvantage because there is no longer a need to learn, they will simply MASH the lever... and if they ever get on an old bike... CRASH?
Not the best argument. If we apply this then motorcycle technology will never improve. The first 4 bikes I owned all had ABS. I had a go on my dad's bike that didn't. I knew it didn't. So I took it easy and slowly built up my speed. This point assumes that everyone knows nothing about bikes.
I have an ADV, and I bloody hate ABS on it. When I hit the trails, I have to ride much more conservatively, as I've noticed my ability to actually stop aggressively is NIL.
@mld Versys-x. Pulling the fuse gives a fault that you've got to have a computer to disable. There's a workaround where you pop the bike into second, and run it to 20-30 mph while on the center stand. Can't wait for that one to get away from me.
Did you check for any insurance cost differences? Early on, ABS cars got an insurance discount. I am not sure if that applies to motorcycles or not, but if insurance is cheaper, that might help offset the additional cost of ABS.
Great presentation! Through training I have always been told that knowing how to break properly is the best stop a bike, and practicing those techniques is the best way to keep them fresh. I was just reading the manual for a Vaquero and when describing how their abs works, they specifically say it can increase breaking distance. So I’m kind of in the middle. However I lean more to the training side after watching a demonstration about a police H-D where the instructor is able to stop in a shorter distance with no abs!
This is a common fallacy, You can only outperform ABS in slow straight line stop. Usually less than 20mph on clean dry pavement and where the rear wheel is allowed to come off the ground causing loss of steering control.. The street is unpredictable. I would love to go up against some pundits with sand, oil, or water on the pavement and watch them low side or run 50 feet beyond me in a high speed stop.
@@NoNopeAndNo There are different levels of ABS sophistication. Some integrate engine controller to know gear selection and throttle position to reflect effect of engine braking on rear wheel. Some modulate brake pressure more precisely to minimize skid-slip variation and maintain braking pressure closer to threshold just below wheel lock-up with real-time control (100s of times per second). Then there are multi-axis (lean angle) dependent systems allowing maximum braking in a corner with low risk of low-side crash that no human can possibly replicate in real world variable conditions. The individuals that claim they can outperform such systems falsely perceive they have superhuman skills. They are just plain ignorant and quite possibly the next future organ donors waiting for their final turn.
I had two big touring bikes (800+ lbs.) without ABS (i.e. Royal Star Venture, Street Glide Standard) and panic stops were always a real adventure. Never again, ABS all the way.
Cost and complexity shouldn't compromise safety. 99.9% of riders, as you said, cannot out brake ABS. ABS for on-road motorcycles is just common sense. ABS is a legal requirement in Europe. As there are many, many more motorcycles sold in Europe than in the USA, it just makes sense to build the bike with ABS (as, again, you said). I would prefer that you have the option to turn off ABS on _all_ bikes rather than just some off-road bikes.
The fact is that if your braking skills are that advanced, the abs will never be a factor because you will adjust to just the right amount of braking pressure to come to the perfect stop without locking the brakes at all. For the rest of us... there’s no reason to risk riding a street bike without this potentially life saving feature. Then go practice the emergency stops some more so you never need it.
I like ABS on my XSR900, I think it saved my ass one time. Glad it is not on my TW200 for off-road and stuff like that. Although off-road ABS where front wheel has ABS and rear does not seems like a good option off-road in slippery conditions too.
Only one time? Abs as saved my ass more than a dozen times in the las 6 months no I am not a bad rider but I am a beginner rider commuting in heavy trafic every day. So when the rain hits the asphalt I can't live without.
Most bikes I’ve seen the price difference is between $500 and $1000 for ABS vs non ABS I’ve never had a motorcycle with ABS but I sure wish I did when that car came to a complete stop on the highway
Giga Shrubbz ha ha well It’s too late for that I’ve been driving and riding for 30+ years and this video explaining that the cost you save and the complexity is just silly the younger the driver with less experience it should mandatory they have ABS and even traction control and I’m pretty sure the insurance on a bike with those features will save you money.
ABS is safer than no ABS. Helmets are safer than no helmet. There are some things that are just a no-brainer. Speaking of no brains, I have had people that think that the system will somehow save you from being a dumbass. If you're in too hot, doing stupid stuff, riding hammered, going too fast e.t.c. you and your perfectly functioning ABS equipped bike will still crash.
The only arguments I've seen against ABS with normal riding is one where having ABS might prevent a new rider from developing superior braking practices. Except lacking ABS doesn't mean a rider will develop good braking habits, and having ABS doesn't prevent the use of good braking habits.
Paying a fortune for a sports bike to hit the track and having abs you cnnot turn off is a huge issue. On the roads its priceless but ffs i want it off on the track and for that kind of money why can't i turn it off?!
I have been riding and training officers to ride motorcycles before abs was ever invented. I always taught threshold breaking where a rider could demonstrate maximum braking to the point just prior to locking up the front and rear tire in a straight line. The exercise starts at 15mph and increases until you get to 65mph. It is a little hair raising watching students for the first time lock up their front brake. I remember when the BMW's came out with abs. One of the reps brought one to motor training to demonstrate how well the abs worked. The rep entered the exercise at 60 mph and locked the front brake lever. The front tire instantly locked, kicked sideways and threw the rep off the front of the bike, breaking both wrists. The rep had not been paying attention to the light on the instrument panel that told him his abs had not reset itself and was functioning like non-abs. His pain made my point that day. Always learn and practice threshold braking and if that isn't doing it on a bike equipped with abs, grab the brake lever a little harder. Thank you for the video.
Yup. ABS is a significant safety boost for most people. Because most people never learn learn how to brake, correctly. It can be argued that ABS is a very minor feature for the minority who actually learn this. The way you taught people, slowly increasing from 15 mph to 65 mph? That is good stuff. But there's a finer point to learn from it. At 15-20 mph, the bike is completely stopped before most of the "things of interest" begin to happen, at all. This is why most people don't learn. They go in a parking lot and stomp on their brakes at 15-20 mph, and then they believe they learned something. The only thing you might learn from this is how not lock your front too early, before weight has transferred to the front. You know the people who stopped their learning, here. These are the dudes who are afraid of their front brake and think their rear brake is amazeballs. As you get up to 30 mph, that's where the bike is still moving for a split second when the other "things of interest" begin to occur. The rear lock/slide will start to manifest. And depending on the bike, you will either start to be able to experience rear wheel lift, or you can start to experience front wheel lock/shudder while the front is loaded. This is where you learn to respect the importance of your front brake and begin to realize just how fast the rear brake becomes useless and must be released (released completely on most bikes; perhaps mostly released on some long cruisers) when braking hard on dry street. If I were to teach people how you do it, I would make them stay here, in the 30-35 mph speed, until they can demonstrate purposeful excess of the limits of these phenomena. So they can experience and know what the limits are, for the main purpose of learning how to get to max braking fast as possible without causing these problems. Make them slide the rear tire. Make them either lift the rear tire or experience front lock/shudder under load. And be sure to explain that at higher speeds, these things are increasingly dangerous and potentially difficult to recover from, so they are to be avoided as you go on and increase the speeds to 65 mph! The point of this is to find the size and shape of the strike zone at a safe speed. It remains the same at higher speeds, just increasingly more dangerous and requiring ever faster reflexes and cool head to recover and to maintain/reattain maximum braking if/when you are to accidentally exceed these limits.
I have observed some instructors are a major impediment to motorcycle tech safety adoption because the old school mentality perceives it as a threat to their future livelihood or somehow skipping a right of passage by new riders into their elite group. You reference a first generation ABS system on a BMW which has nothing to do with current tech.. Now fast forward how many years and such a past example is completely irrelevant? I just purchased 2022 Versys 1000 SE complete with 6-axis IMU. I am probably no where as skilled a rider as you are but with such system I could easily out perform you while you operate a similar bike without such aids in any random braking or acceleration test on a closed course consisting of turns or straight line with a mix of wet, sandy road , etc. Particularly where no practice is allowed and braking command is issued randomly and you are measured on your ability required to maintain minimum speed, brake in shortest possible distance while maintaining the intended line. That is more representative of real world, unpredictable street scenario and not fictional, preplanned exercise of accelerating to 50 and initiating a planned stop on best case dry pavement scenario. The truth of the matter is these advanced systems now exceed the capabilities of even expert riders and overcome limitations of human sensory capabilities. The teaching of threshold braking with such new tech is obsolete thinking and will underperform modern systems in real world unpredictable conditions. It is less thinking, faster reaction time and ramping up brake pressure as soon as possible to scrub speed and stop in shortest distance possible. Then rider can instead focus on finding and executing safe out from any potential impact situation. When on motorcycle with 6 axis IMU in emergency situation you simply grab full front brake whether in a turn or in a straight line and system does the rest. Lean angle ABS will not only allow you to slow at maximum rate possible based on available traction but maintain a line in a turn without low siding. If you don't accept what I stated then you are most likely deliberately ignoring the publically available information from Bosch, Continental, KTM, and other manufacturers whose testing video demonstrations, dats, and descriptions validate such tech works as promised. It well should work because it was first developed and in use by MotoGp riders since over 10 years ago.
@@kannermw What happens if the rider gets on a bike that doesn't have ABS? You do realize they still sale many bikes today without ABS. What happens if your abs malfunctions? You know that is why there is an abs light on every dash, because occasionally they malfunction.Teaching someone how to ride using threshold braking is not the only training they receive. They go on to learn maximum stopping distance using abs, trail braking, collision avoidance, skid pan, high speed pursuit, mountain riding, shooting from a motorcycle, etc. The police motor course is probably one of the most difficult riding courses to pass and unlike MotoGP, they must train for every situation they might experience riding in a urban and rural environment, which includes all types of surfaces, pot holes, sand, dirt, water, mud, driving up curbs, making u-turns uphill, downhill within 18' diameter.
@@capecrusader6932 I currently own 3 motorcycles and one doesn't have any electronic rider aids as it is DR650 dual sport. I started riding in late 70's off-road at age 14. When I received my motorcycle license endorsement at age 16 I already had 100s of hours off-road riding experience on steep, bumpy, rutted, or low traction terrain. My personal belief is no course in a controlled environment on pavement builds your skills in motorcycle dynamics, balance, and control as much as off-road. Now at that time 40 years ago there were no choice in advanced tech in motorcycles so if you wanted to ride you had no choice but to accept the risk. ABS wasn't even available in cars but became mandatory in cars in 2004. I live in upper midwest where there is snow and ice. I will never ignorantly suggest non ABS cars and pumping the brakes was ever as effective or simple as mashing the pedal with ABS and still maintaining steering control. I have never had a car in last 20 years with ABS have a system failure. The only three new motorcycles I have purchase since 2013 with ABS have NEVER had an ABS system failure. Having ABS does not affect your bility to learn how to properly modulate brakes effectively. When it intervenes you know when it happens and if anything it can teach you the margins of traction without having to fall on the pavement or worse. We need to stop using lame excuses suggesting that current advanced tech is unreliable as that is simply not true. It is now long proven tech that is very reliable. Studies have proven ABS reduces motorcycle fatalities by 25%. Approximately 57% of total fatal motorcycle deaths are single vehicle accidents in curves. It is estimated that 6 axis IMU with lean angle ABS/traction control would reduce this death rate by 50% or more. With aging demographics comes decline in visual acuity, reaction times, and physical strength and coordination. These older experienced riders will benefit a well. Knowing what I know now I would never buy a motorcycle without advanced rider aids because it is simply not that expensive and better than any insurance policy at minimizing risk of permanent disability or death. Safety instructors should be encouraging new riders to consider ONLY motorcycles with these advanced technologies instead of finding false excuses why they aren't that valuable. It is these least skilled riders most likely to be prevented from making their first and final mistake on the street. Then instructors should be instructing riders how to most effectively use motorcycles with ABS or advanced tech to its fullest and practice aggressive braking technique so they experience the dynamic effects in an emergency. They should also warn riders that simple ABS or simple traction control have inherent risks of causing low side or high side in a curve when not used properly as compared to those with advanced IMU. We need more instructors to carry the torch for a better future in motorcycles. The history is not good as compared to other passenger vehicles in terms of reducing accid3ent or fatality rates from 20 plus years ago as compare to cars where federal government mandated safety in the form of ABS, airbags, etc. There is no need to wait for legislation if riders demand these things from manufacturers as standard equipment. ABS adds ~ $300 to cost of motorcycle and IMU tech another $400. A total of $700 is peanuts compared to the benefits of risk reduction in loss of life, lost income, pain and suffering, or a lifetime of disability.
I don't "panic break" I do hard break when a car next to me misses his turn and jumps into my lane without indicating or someone jumps out behind a car. ABS doesn't save me from panic breaking, I use it as a tool to stop shorter than I could without it and to slow down fast on a freeway when I really have to without skidding. ABS is awesome. The only reason I haven't bought a GSXR750 is they still haven't put ABS on it.
Thanks for the video. I would like to provide my counter-arguments for your three points. 1) Out on the road, you very frequently do not have a dry and clean road. Painted signs, metal manhole covers, dirt and sand on the road, wet road from rain and other sources etc all increase the risk of slip if you happen to be breaking when your wheel is currently over those. Even if you are on virgin clean and dry road, how much can an "experienced" rider outperform ABS by, in ideal conditions? 5 or 7%? That's insignificant. Also, not that I put "experienced" in quotation marks because most riders like to think that they are experienced, but 90% shit their guts out in an emergency situation and just slam the breaks because almost no one trains emergency breaking regularly. 2) Yes, it adds a bit of cost and complexity, but it all depends on what you are willing to pay for safety. Also, probably more than half of all bikes which have seen some action has been layed down at least once. This means that you loose money on repairs or on resale value. In this sense, the ABS system statistically pays for itself. 3) Well, the reason the government mandates things is because people don't understand the risk and it's often too late once you do. It's the same reason why wearing a certified helmet is mandatory.
A simple procedure like renewing your brake fluid and bleeding the system becomes a real PIA! If you learn to ride on the road with a ABS only, you sure aren't going to develop a "feel" for braking traction that will allow you to do better than the ABS though offroad riding is a great way to learn this skill.
Yes if you go to a Motorcycle course they usually have bikes without ABS. You shouldn't rely on ABS because you don't have proper braking technique. That being said, having proper braking technique AND ABS is the perfect combo. It's one of if not the best safety feature you can get on your bike.
I was at HD in Korea (Daejeon). I told them I have a Vrod Muscle. They never heard of the Vrod here. I showed them my photos. I showed them the Birth of the Vrod documentary. Finally showed them your Muscle review. They told that they watch a lot of your videos. Many people here speak English and interpret your videos into Korean, Thought you would like to know. Your looking great!
Abs should be standart issue on motorcycle with an option to turn it off when you don't ned it. maybe the turn on and off part make it a bit expensive but making abs standard is a good thing because braking in rain is scary >~
I have been riding over 40 yrs and never had abs until my 2002 bmw 1150R I have just purchased. I also have a vfr 800 with abs that I am working on now and I have to say it is a royal pain in the ass to work around. The way I ride I can live without it. When it breaks it will be out of there as they offered both these bikes in non abs.
DAAAMN Lev, you dropped some WEIGHT!! Lookin good bro. I personally don't want ABS because I simply want FULL control of my bike. My Jeep is another story
Why would somebody give thumbs down?... they don't speak English?... maybe they do like ABS?... maybe they never give thumbs up?... or babies are randomly pushing buttons on papa's phone?... or the thumbs down are actually thumbs up in our neck in the woods?... anyway Lemmi's content is always amazingly good... so thumbs up from here Lemlem... btw... I can't believe Lemmi hits the gym.... even though he looks like it... there are rumors though about a bearded guy benchpressing motorcycles in a garage... a Grom I heard... now my question... do you have a Grom Lemmy??? 😉
There's also a historical aspect of early generations of ABS turning brakes off on loose downhills BMW 1150 comes to mind. Latest Gen Euro4 ABS is very good and comes with rear wheel off switch.
At school they teach us on non abs bikes to learn how to control your bike if the tires lock up. We practice emergency breaking on non abs bikes and it certainly is great skill to have
I like the ABS on my V-Strom 1000 when on pavement. It is slower to brake On gravel, and it will flat out kill you On off road decents. I put a kill switch on it , so I can deactivate it when I get rowdy on gravel, or do off roading. Had some scary moments in Moab before I put the ABS switch on. Huge picker factor on loose downhills, when the ABS kicks in and won't lock the tires. I had the presence of mind to shut off the engine before I went off a cliff, thus shutting off ABS and allowing me to stop the bike.
For a dual propose bike i would like to have ABS on both but with the option of switching off a rear one. Front ABS are great no matter its on the dirt or the highway. It works quite well on emergency what they are made for.
At the very least, having the option to disable ABS is a must. I chose a KLR as my first bike in part due to how it is a older machine. I wanted to learn to control a bike in its simplest form. I do concede that ABS would have been useful on more than one occasion. But the skill that I am forced to develop in regards to braking is both rewarding and exhilarating. ABS might make motorcycles safer, and I wouldn’t mind the option, but I didn’t choose to ride because I’m 100% risk averse. I chose to ride because I wanted every decision I made to have an effect on me.
I'd love to hear what you think about the Bosch system especially on the new Indian Challenger since one of the minuses about standard ABS is stopping in a curve.
I've been riding motorcycles for 10 years, I got in my first accident two months ago because my bike did not have ABS brakes. A car pulled in front of me as I was riding by, looks like they were not going to stop, so I panic braked and my rear wheel locked which threw me from the bike. I didn't have any broken bones, but my hand is sprained pretty bad and still sprained, and my bike was damaged. I am unsure if I'm going to continue riding, but if I do, I'm going to sell my current bike and purchase one with abs.
I’ve been riding for 30 years and I finally got a bike with ABS (Africa Twin) after saying I’d never own a bike with it. It’s nice knowing I have it. I’ve activated it once and was happy it was there. As more and more bikes come standard, the cost becomes negligible.
Lem, you forgot to mention the 4th, and most important reason; ABS MENTALITY. What does that mean? Well, ABS system is just a system to HELP with your extra strong braking in a situation where normal brakes would slide. BUT as you have probably figured out, a lot of riders say "Well, I do have ABS on my bike, so I can go that much faster...", which is completely wrong. It's the same thing with all rider aids, such as TC, and engine modes, cornering ABS and so forth. Instead of just having a tiny bit of safety net under us, there is a mentality that says: "Well, my bike has ALL the aids, so naturally I can go that much faster in a corner, even if I screw up, there are aids that will sort me out."
Well that'd be stupid. You really shouldn't ever be braking hard enough for the ABS to kick in while you're cornering, at that point you're going involuntarily off-road if you were going fast.
This subject is like carburator vs fuel injection. ABS vs Non ABS. I have been riding since 1974 on the street (no dirt riding). I have not crashed my motorcycle in all of that time. I have had 40 different motorcycles and have ridden over 1 million miles in that time. I have had BMWs with ABS, but most of my bikes do not have or have not had ABS. I have yet to need ABS so I don't know if it is better or not. How about 65 mph on Hwy 29, in Lake County CA, when 4 horses jumped out in front of me onto the highway.... In my head, "Front brake, front brake, front brake, look away from the horses, let go and turn." If you can't do that, you haven't been practicing for "what if" in your motorcycling life. My wife was on back and the forward push from her into me almost collapsed my arms. Luckily, I do tricep extensions to keep in "motorcycle riding shape." So, is ABS mandatory? No, motorcycle riding practice is mandatory. Like everything else in life, you can let others do things for you or you can do them yourself. You can let the manufacturer "learn braking" for you with ABS or you can practice for your own safety. No accidents with motorcycle in my life or riding. Practice, practice, practice. www.ridelikeapro.com with Jerry Paladino....
My 2019 iron 883 does not have ABS because reason #2. A big factor in buying the bike was to get one I could do all the work on, because that is why one buys a Harley.
Just mu two cents here .... I think a thing not to underestemate is if a rider learns riding with his first bike ... i have never owned a motorcycle with abs and im sure it has made me a better rider because of it . It do however understand it can be a good addition to riders riding in severe weather tho
Just to provide a counterpoint, all of my bikes have had ABS. I think that by knowing exactly when the ABS is going to kick in has allowed me to test how much I can brake before wheel lock, without eating pavement, and thus improve my braking skills. Besides, it has saved my ass a couple of times with assholes cutting red lights.
@@dogman8339 counterpoint to both statements - those apply only in case the person is talented or continuous enough to learn and admit if he made a boo boo . Countless times I see guys saved by the ABS that blame everything but not that they crewed up. Same with the no ABS bike ( and in my view every bike but still ) know your speed , the speed of all around you and because you don't have ABS to safe your ass plan ahead.
Which, if you're on the brakes, is indicative of traction loss. The brakes still require the wheels to have traction to slow you down in relation to the ground. Using brakes while airborn or on ice does little to slow you down.
Living in Thailand now, i find i ride in heavy auto/motorcycle traffic, often at slow speeds. Abs is great for inexperienced drivers who dump their bikes after locking up the front brakes. I see it every day. Thanks Lem
Michael Clark abs is not standard. I have a Yamaha n-max which has front and rear. I see inexperienced riders lock the front brake up all the time in traffic situations, and down they go.
My question to all the “experts” that can out brake an ABS system is can you still swerve to avoid what you are trying to miss while doing so., The whole point of abs on both cars and bikes is to maintain control under heavy braking rather than reducing braking distance.I personally feel that if you are braking to the point that abs intervenes then you are perhaps breaking too late or simply over breaking.Agree that it should be able to be disabled fully on an off road bike due to an entirely different riding style than road riding.
ABS vs non ABS seems to be the way of automatic vs manual cars. Everyone wants their manual transmissions to stay in circulation but when it gets down to it, automatics are starting to do everything better. People think they can perform better than the ABS module but realistically, its all computers that are vastly smarter and can handle conditions better. I can entirely see having the option to disable it, which most motorcycles do. But eventually everything will go the way of ABS.
ABS doesn't activate if you got braking skills. If it does, your tire had slipped at that moment without. If your ABS kicks in you are over-braking - what we all do in panic.
All cars have had abs mandatory for over a decade now but why shouldn't bikes? I specifically wanted an abs bike for my first motorcycle so I bought a new Kawasaki Z400 which comes with ABS standard in Australia and now since 2019 it's mandatory on all road motorcycles. You don't get car drivers complaining that they have abs.
I'm for non abs only b/c abs breeds complacency complacency makes for accidents. Controlling a motorcycle is the rides job and his or hers life vary well could depend on it. I don't like the idea of making them easier to ride. Car became so easy to operate not everyone in the road is complacent and distracted making it less safe then it used to be. I don't want the same for my motorcycle
To be fair ABS being $200-$500 more is offset pretty quickly with insurance discount on it sometimes. Best to compare with your insurer before purchase. Run a personal cost analysis.
My Yamaha '23 XSR apparently mixes front and back. Do I need to use the rear foot brake? I had an accident where I locked up the rear wheel, and probably let up on the front, and ran off the road, kissing the street. The rear brake skidding messed me up. For that one reason, I would of been far better off with this ABS, and not use the rear brake at all.
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Hi Lem.
Totally unrelated to the video.
What ever happened to the $1000usd Suzuki you guys picked up and fixed back in August?
Love your video! You got a new subscriber here! By the way can you talk about the difference between having ABS in the front only vs. having ABS on both wheels? Is it really necessary?
Who is this imposter?
Looking small Lemmy! 👍
I thought he had lost weight. good for him!
Lem Lite
I'm glad he's looking after himself. Biker Image be damned. No one is gonna be there for you him if his health takes a hit.
Stunt double
cheapest way to increase power/weight ratio on your bike =)
I'm still angry that I cant turn my headlight on and off so it's to soon for me to talk about ABS.
Just remove the ABS fuse like on a car and bam no ABS
@@paule5812 I know and putting a switch in for the headlight and disabling the switch for the side stand are all easy but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Corey Brass understandable
@MrPlopfest and that's a great reason for me to use a headlight...but it still should be my choice.
Here is an interesting fact that you can research; if every automobile passenger had a helmet on then more lives would be saved then if every motorcyclist didnt wear a helmet.
Disable your low beam and only use the high beam - that way you can turn it on & off (that's what l do)
You're welcome...
I agree that for off-road use, ABS can get in the way. On the street, however, I can’t think of a single circumstance where it gets in the way. And, yes, maybe 0.1% of street riders than actually out brake an ABS bike on dry pavement, but 0% can out brake ABS in any other circumstance, particularly roads where traction is rapidly a varying due to interleaved wet and dry pavement, for example.
Agreed. Pro riders can out brake ABS on a track in perfect conditions (good pavement, time to anticipate, etc), anyone who gets surprised and needs to brake in an emergency situation gets outperformed by ABS
This doesnt help lol, but in a car it is absolutely faster below 80kph to lock the front wheels. If the shortest fastest stop in a straight line is whats right for the situation of course
Over 80kph the grip v inertia equation goes the other way.
The Mongoose No, it is never good to lock the wheels when stopping on a hard surface. Sliding (dynamic) friction is always less than non sliding (static) friction. That is why dragsters never want to spin their tires during a drag race. As soon as the tires begin to spin, traction goes down dramatically and the opponent pulls away quickly. Spinning tires during acceleration is functionally equivalent to locking and sliding a tire during deceleration. Now, if you are talking reasonably deep snow or sand where the locked tire can “dam” up material in from of the tire, then locking the wheels can have an advantage and allow a faster stop. ABS is a detriment in such conditions.
LTVoyager now sorry but it was tested a long time ago when abs was being commonly introd.
Inertia mate. Which is why spinning a wheel is slower in a straight line. Inertia.
The Mongoose you need to go back to physics class for a refresher. Friction coefficient is what gets you stopped, and kinetic (=sliding) friction is always lower than static friction. Exception is gravel or snow where a sliding tire can build up a wedge in front which helps with deceleration. Inertia is just another word for the stored kinetic energy which is independent of the braking mechanism.
I fully understand the desire to turn off ABS off road but, the first street bike with ABS I had was a 2000 BMW R1100RS and now I won’t buy a new street bike without it. Wet oily pavement, streets covered with wet leaves in the fall, morons on the phone in front of you or turning across your path in the rain, ABS has saved my ass more times than I care to think about. I’ve only been riding for 44 years, but this is one “new trick” this “old dog” appreciates. 😉
Thank you for being a voice of reason
I have no ABS, but if it indeed gets mandatory by law I guess at some point in time prices must come down generally for the system if every brand and model simply has one...
ABS saves so many cars, I guess it's time to really start saving bikers too.
I only had a problem with brakes once, never had problems controlling the front brake as I'm used since a kid in bicycles but the problem is controlling the rear brake for me in a dangerous situation. Once I was on a road that fits only 1 car (one way road) and I was only at around 50KM\h and after a turn I get a BMW coming in reverse to me on a tight road, tight turn with no visibility and in the opposite way of the road which for sure I would never expected it. As soon as I saw it full rear brake with gentle front brake, I didn't fall or hit the car but was close to scratching at least however the rear tyre wasn't doing anything at all as it was fully locked since the first second I saw the car, bam full rear brake and I don't think I could ever control it if I get any more similar situation...
Shit might happen at any second and in my opinion it's hard to even know WTF we are going to do unless being there. On a track while racing that's all different for example as everyone knows the track, what to expect and are always 100% focused but on every day riding, everything can happen and sometimes is a split second and it's all gone just like that.
This was truly inspirational.
Dont believe that I like rear wheel ABS. No locking the back wheel is depressing and a questionable reduction of control.
Front wheel ABS may be OK.
@@christopherwieland1196 ABS has reduced motocycle fatalities globally by 37% according to the WHO. I'll always have it. Why remove a layer of safety?
Saved me twice... with drivers pulling in front of me then braking to make a turn.
It save me countless times as i live in thailand manny things are jumping out at me on the road.It is not just crazy drivers it's dogs,cats,and buffalows that like the streets.Your life is worth the extra money,to me all bikes should have abs!
@@markvandeventer2411 similar situation here in India, definitely a life saver
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland.
Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping.
I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty.
Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US).
I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position".
No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph.
I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off.
I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper.
The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS.
Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
I had a light that went from green, to yellow, to red in a matter of 3 seconds, if I didn't have abs I would have slid right through the intersection because of how fast I had to brake.
Yeah it definitely serves its purpose . You can slow down insanely fast If you need to panic brake
For me and my riding ABS all the way no question
Off-road or at the track, I do understand people not wanting ABS in their way. On the street however, with all the random variables like rain, puddles, oil, road paint, sand... if you think you can always outperform an ABS system in every circumstance, you are just being cocky. (When I say "you", I'm not talking specifically to you Lemmy 🙂)
@John Because I'm a fallible human being, and if I do get careless and screw up (or otherwise don't recognize that I have trees blocking my line of sight, or some other subtle safety hazard), there's a chance the brakes will save my life and I'll properly learn a valuable lesson that turned out to be a lot cheaper than it would have been had I not had a bike that brakes better than I do.
@John why would I want a bike to be better than my braking ability? That's like asking a person who's a 5 why they married an 8?!
How many people have been killed or injured because they had ABS versus how many have been killed or injured because they didn't. If you or anyone else is better than ABS on a road (not a track) with its thousands of variables, then by all means, don't use it. But don't try to influence every other rider that they'll be 2 wheeled gods if they ditch ABS.
@John this might be the dumbest thing I've ever read lmao, you're stupid
The Timekeeper if you get careless get off your bike like an adult
1. If only we'd be honest, most of us aren't at the level of skill required to ride like a pro in a panic situation. Seriously, it's not easy to override the lizard brain. 2. Way cheaper than a crash. 3. Yeah, freedom is dope, and I support it.
Also, dang, Lemmy, looking good, keep it up!
There are No argument or reason good enough to not have ABS on the streets. Unless you're a professional racer, you will Not outbreak a bike with ABS. I do stoppies on my MT-09 even while leaning backwards with no ABS intervention. So i can't stop any faster with or without ABS. So the only time you'll feel the difference is when you slam on the break too fast. At that point ABS Actually saving lives. And with more and more bikes coming out with lean sensitive ABS, it's getting even safer. Offroad is a completely different story. There should Always be a way to turn of ABS. At the very least on the rear wheel on bikes designed to ride offroad at any time. Even if it's an adventure bike.
Not true at all. If you ride without any rider aids, you are in charge and are in fact responsible for your own mistakes and for your own life. That means that when on a bike without rider aids, you will instinctivly go slower and be more alert.
I once had a buddy tell me he could go 3 rounds with the heavy weight boxing champion. That's what I think of when people say they can beat ABS... NO FUCKING WAY !! You will be unconscious 😂😂
There's off-road ABS these days too, pretty sure it comes standard on newer KTM ADV bikes.
@@Brgnalf81, no, not at all. People are going to ride their bikes the same weather or not their bike has abs or not
@@csolivais1979 I find that my friends that have rider aids on their bikes tend to over do it more times than the guys without rider aids.
Well if you never speed, always have good space cushions, never get distracted, have fighter pilot reaction times and the good lord with you ABS is not needed on the street.
@@cobalt_sabre2735 Braking isn't the only option though. There is also swerving. Also, practicing emergency braking can get you to be quite good without ABS. My bike doesn't have ABS, and at first, I was greatly concerned, but with experience, I've been able to get quite good at braking in an emergency. In fact, I'm more concerned about being rear ended, which is why I usually resort to the swerve, since the last thing I want is to be stuck between the car that just cut me off, and a car behind me making me into a sandwich between two cars.
@@cobalt_sabre2735 btw, that wasn't an argument against ABS. I think ABS is great to have. I wish by bike had it, but I have gotten quite good with my braking that it would be more of a peace of mind than a necessity at this point. The thing about being on a motorcycle though is the threat isnt just not crashing into things but things crashing into you. While ABS might save you from crashing into the idiot that just go out of the parking lot, it will do nothing to stop the idiot behind you from crashing into you. Swerving, on the other hand, might, and that is an essential tool to have, with or without ABS.
@@joemann7971 I agree with your point exactly. What scares me most about the new ABS age is that it seems a lot of new riders are seeing this as a feature rather than an absolute last resort safety mechanism. If you're constantly activating ABS while riding, you either need more training or need to make better choices while riding. 8 hours of training in a good riding class will do more than ABS ever can. To me it's the same as a car, the only time I've ever really ran into ABS is in the snow and ice, and I don't think it's a good idea to ride in those conditions
@@TitanFlare my bike doesn't have ABS so, I had no choice but to learn to brake properly. I tend to swerve when I don't have a lot of time to react and brake properly.
I'm from California, so when I see a car stop fairly quickly, my first instinct is to swerve into a lane splitting position and apply the brakes, which generally gives me a huge space cushion. I always stop to match their speed before so start lane splitting to give the drivers in front a chance to see me.
Most abs, is only on the rear wheel, so not really needed on the street or any where.
I've slid down the road on my face. I don't really want to do that again so my sport touring bikes have ABS.
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland.
Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping.
I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty.
Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US).
I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position".
No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph.
I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off.
I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper.
The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS.
Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
Hi Akiko. ABS brakes don't stop you the fastest way possible just by yanking them, no matter how good they are. You have to modulate the brakes in a way where your front forks don't bottom out hard and then bounce like a pogo stick. When your front loses traction, you lose almost all your braking. Then as your front comes back down, wham, it bites hard, but then you bottom it out and bounce it, again. And ABS is 100% doing exactly what it's supposed to do.
On that Harley, you gotta do the weight transfer more smoothly to load the front just that one time and to keep it there.
Braking takes a bit of skill and focused learning. Once you've learned (and most people don't ever learn. We're too dumb and lazy), ABS is not a big deal in the vast majority of your riding conditions. But since most people can't learn this, ABS will save us dummies, sometimes. Like it did for you, here.
You will not out brake ABS at a reliable rate. The best riders may beat it 3 out of 10 times. If that's good for you... it's your life 🌝👍.
If you ride only on good dry roads you won't need it much. But city riding over white lines, rails, manhole covers, rain, oil, rocks, low temperatures etc. it can save you, your ride and someone else's live. I've fallen locking the front wheel on wet highway with 160km/h and ABS could have prevented that.
ABS saved my ass one morning when it was still a little wet out and I hit a slick part of a freshly asphalted turn lane. It felt like I was on ice but I allowed enough distance when coming up to the car waiting for the arrow, was engine braking and applied the brakes evenly but nothing. ABS light started flashing and bike went loose and shimmied. I felt the ABS working, didn’t panic and all was well. Heart rate was way up but I completely believe the ABS saved me from going into the trunk of that car or locking up the brakes and losing control.
so you got to keep riding happily ever after. good to know you are safe.
I am a Japanese girl living in Scotland.
Just this week I was out on my 96ci Harley Street Bob (FXDB) to pick up some essential shopping.
I was cruising along a dual carriageway at around 60mph well within the speed limit and as it's lockdown the roads were empty.
Up ahead I saw an SUV stopped at the end of the slip road (kinda like an on ramp in the US).
I thought, "How the hell have you managed to get in that position".
No sooner had I thought that the SUV pulled out into my lane at 5mph and began accelerating slowly as I approached from behind at 60mph.
I had to emergency brake and the crap Harley ABS kicked in, lots of tire smoke, the bike was bucking and kicking and wanting to veer off.
I managed to hold the bike and it slowed to a matching speed of the SUV with inches to spare. My front wheel was an inch off the back bumper.
The ABS both saved me and almost killed me in equal measure. Make sure you buy a bike with GOOD ABS.
Either way I am glad I went to the bathroom before I left home 😰😰
@Cody Phinney @Cody
Not a bot, just copypasta'd my comment to reply to another commenter.
Lazy I know, but easier than typing it out again 😂
@@DoctorAkikoFukuwara Thanks for your story I am glad you’re safe
to my thinking, ABS is all about risk mitigation if there is something I can do to make my ride safer I will. Also it has zero impact on me enjoying my ride
ABS saved my ass twice, once when a truck pulled suddenly infront of me.
ABS saved lives, no doubt in that buddy.
Ride safe, #RideWithGear
You might have been fine on a bike without ABS. You never know.
@@Zalazaar No way, I know the abs kicked in when I breaked hard and my tires lost traction for a fraction of time.
@@sid1290 My point still stands
@@Zalazaar Bro you ever used ABS? You'll know when ABS kicks in and when it didn't. I was panic breaking that time and there's absolutely no way I could've handled it without ABS help.
@Cody Phinney Ride safe buddy ✌️
I ride for over 20yrs without ABS and too many close call. To this day my 2nd harley for the first time had ABS.. life is precious and ABS is a must!
even pro's can't out brake a ABS system proven many times all ready you have to be a MOTO GP Champion to do that im not sure everycorner is full of them
He meant off-road riders. It's easier to back in an enduro than braking and turning. But yea, most of pro enduro riders don't bother with ABS and just switch it off/rip it out completely, so video's argument is invalid.
i agree. But to me that is not the point. ABS works well, that is certain. I can do without it and have been doing so since the early 1970's. As an option I'm all for it. As a self wrencher though I find it unnecessarily complicated and too costly for the benefits. The costs of ABS repair OFTEN exceed the cost of an otherwise fine machine.
@@WiseWik he never said he was talking about off road use and the main use of a bike is the road so it still have no sens :)
@@amrev2.020 all my bikes are abs bikes since 2010 and it never add anyting to the repaire as the abs system on all of them worked like a charm , never had a issue on them and work on them like all the other bikes its not complicated at all
@@amrev2.020 spot on. Id rather see more riders getting airbag vests than ABS. Vigilant riding should mitigate *most* of the need for ABS, just like driving a car
I would prefer motorcycle companies to offer a different variation of their production line. ABS replaces progressive brake pressure skill. Throttle control replaces progressive throttle roll. Launch control for a lack of throttle, rpm, and clutch skill. Wheelie control for a lack of throttle discipline. Slipper clutch for a lack of overall riding skill and discipline. Clutchless upshift/downshift, because, at this point, why not! How about one line offers all these training wheel assists, and the other line offers an upgraded suspension, brake, and wheel package. MotoGP isn’t a good enough excuse. I’d love to see racing sacrifice lap times for unassisted riding skill.
If you only ride your bike when it's sunny and beautiful outside, on good paved roads then you might be inclined to say ABS is not necessary. On the other hand there's many people out there that *must* use their bikes on a daily basis no matter the climate condition or road surface, and that is where ABS shines and saves lives, you people in the US have It way too easy to understand how chaotic motorcycle riding can get in other countries.
After one scare without ABS, now I won't and have not bought a new motorcycle without it. It might save my life and that possibility is enough for me to have it.
If I have this right, ABS prevents skidding. If I have this wrong, negate the following.
As someone who wants to learn traditional maneuvering and implement the benefits, such as brake-skidding, this could be dangerously counterintuitive.
As a new rider I would have preferred ABS on my motorcycle (fuel injection would have been nice too), but I couldn’t justify it as most beginner bikes with ABS seemed to be outside of my price range for a first bike. Besides, both my wife and I took the CMSP (California Motorcycle Safety Program) together and were each getting a bike, so economically it didn’t make sense. In the end she got a 2007 Honda Rebel 250, and I got a 2001 Honda Shadow VTX 600. At the speeds we’re riding at, about 45mph max, they seem to be working out okay. Eventually, when we’re ready for highway riding, we’ll look into more powerful bikes, with ABS. For now, these non-ABS beginners seem to be just fine.
Riding a motorcycle is a high risk activity. In the past you had no choice to reduce risk. To be honest the riding community is filled with ignorant bliss and I started riding in th 1980's where such risks were shrugged off as price to pay to enjoy motorcycling or not at all. ABS is even more important to new riders because your first big mistake could be your last. Studies prove ABS reduces death risk by 25% on a motorcycle. I would argue affordability is a weak excuse and my response is then you can't really afford a motorcycle or you devalue you life and well-being to take a unnecessary incremental risk. As an analogy would you go to a doctor who practices only medicine from 30 years ago to save some money? My most recent two motorcycles and every motocycle I buy in future will have minimum 5 or 6-axis IMU providing cornering ABS and traction control. If I cant afford a motorcycle with those safety features then I'll stop riding motorcycles.
@@kannermwJesus dude, if you you want the thing to operate itself just buy a tesla. You can enjoy your orange slices and capri sun from the driver's seat without ever putting your hands on the wheel.
@@hung-lodongdynasty You just exposed your ignorance at the highest level possible. Moto-GP riders have been using such aids for over a decade and they are professionals riding in a controlled environment on a track that is nothing like the street. A bike with rider aids does not drive itself but it can potentially save you from death or seriously injury when the unexpected happens. They will not protect you from your own arrogance and stupidity. If you think as a rider you are always 100% attentive or have mystical superhuman moto skills then maybe let Darwins law take it's course the world would be much better offmwithout you.
I’ll never own a road bike without ABS. EVER.
@Bad Santa why tho?
@Henry Discipline that's something I didn't think of. good one
@Henry Discipline thats a complete and total opinion. There are no facts behind what you said. I for sure don't ride differently bc I have abs.
EyeInTheSky not really its kind of the same as what the guy in the video said
Pussy
Arguments can be made against any safety feature. Seatbelts can cause death if your car goes into the drink and you're not able to undo them. Lights can blind oncoming traffic. Brakes can cause others to rear-end your bike. Regular maintenance requires additional expenditures. Riding gear adds extra cost to riding.
You have the freedom to choose. You don't want a bike with ABS, buy one that doesn't have it, but don't complain that a particular brand/model comes standard with ABS. Even if it becomes law, you can still get used bikes that didn't come with it, or as some suggested, pull the ABS fuse.
By the way, even on a bike with ABS, you can stop the bike faster on your own than with ABS assist. If you're that much in control you can apply brakepressure without locking up a wheel, and your stopping distance will be shorter than when you do lock up the wheels and ABS needs to intervene.
I let the talk about abs convince me I didn't need it for my first bike and regretted it. After having a handful of emergency stop situations, I've found it's difficult to maximize stopping power on both tires in a panic stop situation, the rear is very easy to slide and you have to reduce pressure as weight moves forward, the front tire requires progressive increased pressure and if it slides you have a fraction of a second to catch it. It's the confidence of knowing that you can apply the brakes hard to keep you clear of trouble regardless of surface conditions. You can't count on clear perfect pavement conditions on the street, and ABS can electronically control for that better than most human riders. The cost is offset by increased resale value, lowered insurance rates, and reduced chance of a drop. Motorcycling is already dangerous enough, If you are on the dirt fine or track then great, for street duty I think it's ideal.
As an older rider I like the technology that helps me ride safely. Triumph Speedmaster with ABS and traction control was something I felt made this bike my best choice.
Exactly. If new safety can can keep people riding longer and encourage more timid newies to give riding a boost in confidence to try motorcycles than that can only mean good things for all of us.
In 2019, there is no reason for a street bike not to have ABS. The arguments against ABS being present on street bikes is down right ignorant and stupid. I have heard the same argument of "Freedom of choice" against wearing helmets, nothing but more American BS, as if naming shale gas to Freedom gas wasn't stupid enough. Jeez.
Here's something else: manufacturers use ABS as an excuse to make you bring your bike into the dealer to change brake fluid. Only they can acquire (or afford) the "special tool" that cycles the abs pump to do a full fluid flush. I assume there is no technical reason there couldn't be a "brake fluid change mode" activated by the user to cycle the pump for at home fluid changes.
Personally I just keep fluid cycling through the system by doing frequent flushes and making sure the abs gets activated once in a while by braking hard on gravel.
That is really all you need to do. Flush regularly. Every two years. Activate the abs pump now and again. It's actually pretty cool when you slam I the brakes and the tires just keep on turning.
*ABS is a $795 option on Sportsters. It's less expensive than dropping the bike in an emergency.*
Brembo ABS saved my arsh many times on my 2017 HD Street Glide Special. Damn DEER, turkeys and $H!TH%@DS on their dang smartphones. Even jacked up my front rotors where both had to be replaced because I did a hecklacious panic stop but saved my arsh. It works and it works very well on pavement. I'm typing this today as a testament.
Second :'D Up at 5:30 am for no good reason, always enjoy a new revzilla vid. I prefer to have ABS and I recommend it for my family and friends. In a panic stop without practice and no ABS you're most likely locking those tires up and increasing overall stopping distance if not taking a spill altogether. Better safe than sorry. Good breaking technique will not have ABS jumping on, but it does take time practicing with your bike to start to know those limits of braking.
I know a few people who rely on abs and traction control over actual skill, they scream up to corners, jam on the brakes and just let the computer get them round the bend rather than judging what to do themselves.
You forgot slow. You know slow people that do that. There are no fast people that ride that way.
@@BTrain-is8ch I agree. They have no smoothness or flow to their riding. Some people have never had bikes without abs. They've never had to ride without a safety net.
@mld I wouldn't say that. I think it should be used as a safety net rather than a crutch.
I mean I get your point, but if someone’s new to riding and live in cold weather, traction control is sorta important because of the cold temps. It’s better to use traction control until you feel comfortable to take it off than to sit there take it off and have some real bad spills.
@@dongambino5308 a lot of those people wouldn't ever turn them off though. Having something with decent tyres and a sensible amount of power as well as a sensible approach to riding to your conditions would be far more beneficial I feel.
Lookin' good Lemmy!
One of the reasons I'm buying a new bike next year is to get ABS. Definitely will not be buying a bike without it ever again.
My 2012 Ultra has it, I have had it activate a few times. I really appreciated on a long trip in a panic stop I feel without it I would have gone down because I had a handful of front brakes. I am a very experienced rider. I have had a number of bikes without it older sportbikes and a Honda Magna. I am older and I like the fact it's there. I seldom feel it doing its thing but like I said one time I know it saved my bacon.
people are better off practising good braking control .. not just relying on ABS
*When most riders come out of a close call on their bikes, we call it part of the riding experience and learn from it.*
*When most riders can't come out of a close call unscathed, we need to call it a design flaw and fix that.*
I'm definitely a fan of ABS when I was researching riding I didnt like that if I grab too much brake it can send me flying in the air. Then I found out ABS on cheaper bikes was only a 200 dollar upgrade so it was well worth the added safety as I'm a new rider!
Off road ABS "OFF". On road you will have ha hard time beating the ABS for stopping distance and control. Just watch some youtube and see how many lock the front wheel in a panic stop and dump the bike over. For all of the "I only use the rear brakes" your stopping distance is way past the impact point of any panic stop.
I've had both brakes lock up while doing emergency stop training, it's not an automatic wipe-out(I never wiped out), but it does mean you have to let go off the front brake and start over, which isn't really something you want to do in an emergency situation.
My bike has ABS, it was however malfunctioning due to low battery for a while, fixed it with a charger.
After 12 years spent refining my braking technique on the street, I am getting my first bike with ABS, and I have complete confidence that it will outperform my absolute best, any time I need it to.
I owned a 2003 BMW K1200RS. It was equipped with the most complicated ABS system known to man. It required a yearly flush that took the dealer over two hours to flush. It could be done by an owner who is a glutton for punishment with special tools and tons of knowledge. If the pump was allowed to seize, you were looking at shelling out several thousand dollars. Eventually, I sold the bike because of the complex ABS system. I then went to buy a 2018 Suzuki SV650. It came with or without ABS. I chose the non-ABS version. I can now flush and bleed my brakes in under thirty minutes and there’s no possibility that I’ll need to shell out several thousand dollars in the future. I’m a happy camper. BTW, the SV650 is a great bike!
Please do a test with recent sportbike with a professional track rider. There's some comparisons on RUclips but most date from 10 years ago (electronic aids have come a long way since!). I'd like to see the very latest technology used by a pro rider and see how it stacks up to pure talent with no ABS (one pass in the dry and one in the wet). Thanks!
Speedytrip, it’s been done. The results can be summed up as follows:
If the rider doesn’t lock the brakes (threshold braking or less), there is no difference between the bike with or without ABS.
If the rider *does* lock the brakes (greater than threshold braking), the bike with ABS will stop more quickly, and without loss of control.
@@Vessekx Haven't seen that test using the latest systems. Have a link to the video?
Speedytrip, I stumbled across one about a year and a half ago when I was prepping for my MSF course.
There’s another I stumbled across more recently, but it’s more of an overview comparison between no ABS, ABS, and cornering ABS than a scientific test.
I’ll see if I can dig that one up.
Speedytrip, here’s the more recent of the videos:
ruclips.net/video/25KeVdxdd54/видео.html
Speedytrip And another:
ruclips.net/video/XhR8nVkvJaY/видео.html
What about the argument how new riders relying on ABS will be at a disadvantage because there is no longer a need to learn, they will simply MASH the lever... and if they ever get on an old bike... CRASH?
Not the best argument. If we apply this then motorcycle technology will never improve. The first 4 bikes I owned all had ABS. I had a go on my dad's bike that didn't. I knew it didn't. So I took it easy and slowly built up my speed. This point assumes that everyone knows nothing about bikes.
I have an ADV, and I bloody hate ABS on it. When I hit the trails, I have to ride much more conservatively, as I've noticed my ability to actually stop aggressively is NIL.
that's why you pull the fuse for the ABS before hitting the trail
@mld Versys-x. Pulling the fuse gives a fault that you've got to have a computer to disable. There's a workaround where you pop the bike into second, and run it to 20-30 mph while on the center stand. Can't wait for that one to get away from me.
Did you check for any insurance cost differences? Early on, ABS cars got an insurance discount. I am not sure if that applies to motorcycles or not, but if insurance is cheaper, that might help offset the additional cost of ABS.
Great presentation! Through training I have always been told that knowing how to break properly is the best stop a bike, and practicing those techniques is the best way to keep them fresh. I was just reading the manual for a Vaquero and when describing how their abs works, they specifically say it can increase breaking distance. So I’m kind of in the middle. However I lean more to the training side after watching a demonstration about a police H-D where the instructor is able to stop in a shorter distance with no abs!
This is a common fallacy, You can only outperform ABS in slow straight line stop. Usually less than 20mph on clean dry pavement and where the rear wheel is allowed to come off the ground causing loss of steering control.. The street is unpredictable. I would love to go up against some pundits with sand, oil, or water on the pavement and watch them low side or run 50 feet beyond me in a high speed stop.
@@kannermwalso, it's another thing to stop in a panic emergency situation. ABS is great overall
@@NoNopeAndNo There are different levels of ABS sophistication. Some integrate engine controller to know gear selection and throttle position to reflect effect of engine braking on rear wheel. Some modulate brake pressure more precisely to minimize skid-slip variation and maintain braking pressure closer to threshold just below wheel lock-up with real-time control (100s of times per second). Then there are multi-axis (lean angle) dependent systems allowing maximum braking in a corner with low risk of low-side crash that no human can possibly replicate in real world variable conditions.
The individuals that claim they can outperform such systems falsely perceive they have superhuman skills. They are just plain ignorant and quite possibly the next future organ donors waiting for their final turn.
@@kannermw absolutely, I have seen details about various ABS systems and further advancements. You're spot on with your comment 👌
I had two big touring bikes (800+ lbs.) without ABS (i.e. Royal Star Venture, Street Glide Standard) and panic stops were always a real adventure. Never again, ABS all the way.
Yer durrrrrrrrn toot'in!
Cost and complexity shouldn't compromise safety. 99.9% of riders, as you said, cannot out brake ABS. ABS for on-road motorcycles is just common sense.
ABS is a legal requirement in Europe. As there are many, many more motorcycles sold in Europe than in the USA, it just makes sense to build the bike with ABS (as, again, you said). I would prefer that you have the option to turn off ABS on _all_ bikes rather than just some off-road bikes.
The fact is that if your braking skills are that advanced, the abs will never be a factor because you will adjust to just the right amount of braking pressure to come to the perfect stop without locking the brakes at all. For the rest of us... there’s no reason to risk riding a street bike without this potentially life saving feature. Then go practice the emergency stops some more so you never need it.
I like ABS on my XSR900, I think it saved my ass one time. Glad it is not on my TW200 for off-road and
stuff like that. Although off-road ABS where front wheel has ABS and
rear does not seems like a good option off-road in slippery conditions
too.
Only one time? Abs as saved my ass more than a dozen times in the las 6 months no I am not a bad rider but I am a beginner rider commuting in heavy trafic every day.
So when the rain hits the asphalt I can't live without.
Yeah I don't ride in rain much. For me it was invisible fine gravel.
Most bikes I’ve seen the price difference is between $500 and $1000 for ABS vs non ABS I’ve never had a motorcycle with ABS but I sure wish I did when that car came to a complete stop on the highway
ABS and Traction Control are the things that will save your life, not might they will.
Giga Shrubbz ha ha well It’s too late for that I’ve been driving and riding for 30+ years and this video explaining that the cost you save and the complexity is just silly the younger the driver with less experience it should mandatory they have ABS and even traction control and I’m pretty sure the insurance on a bike with those features will save you money.
ABS is safer than no ABS. Helmets are safer than no helmet. There are some things that are just a no-brainer. Speaking of no brains, I have had people that think that the system will somehow save you from being a dumbass. If you're in too hot, doing stupid stuff, riding hammered, going too fast e.t.c. you and your perfectly functioning ABS equipped bike will still crash.
As a fat guy I was happy to see an argument against abs. I was disappointed to see this was dealing with brakes.
It took me nine months but I see what you did there.
The only arguments I've seen against ABS with normal riding is one where having ABS might prevent a new rider from developing superior braking practices. Except lacking ABS doesn't mean a rider will develop good braking habits, and having ABS doesn't prevent the use of good braking habits.
The world needs more Lemmy! 👍🏽✌🏽
Paying a fortune for a sports bike to hit the track and having abs you cnnot turn off is a huge issue. On the roads its priceless but ffs i want it off on the track and for that kind of money why can't i turn it off?!
I have been riding and training officers to ride motorcycles before abs was ever invented. I always taught threshold breaking where a rider could demonstrate maximum braking to the point just prior to locking up the front and rear tire in a straight line. The exercise starts at 15mph and increases until you get to 65mph. It is a little hair raising watching students for the first time lock up their front brake. I remember when the BMW's came out with abs. One of the reps brought one to motor training to demonstrate how well the abs worked. The rep entered the exercise at 60 mph and locked the front brake lever. The front tire instantly locked, kicked sideways and threw the rep off the front of the bike, breaking both wrists. The rep had not been paying attention to the light on the instrument panel that told him his abs had not reset itself and was functioning like non-abs. His pain made my point that day. Always learn and practice threshold braking and if that isn't doing it on a bike equipped with abs, grab the brake lever a little harder. Thank you for the video.
Yup. ABS is a significant safety boost for most people. Because most people never learn learn how to brake, correctly. It can be argued that ABS is a very minor feature for the minority who actually learn this.
The way you taught people, slowly increasing from 15 mph to 65 mph? That is good stuff. But there's a finer point to learn from it. At 15-20 mph, the bike is completely stopped before most of the "things of interest" begin to happen, at all. This is why most people don't learn. They go in a parking lot and stomp on their brakes at 15-20 mph, and then they believe they learned something. The only thing you might learn from this is how not lock your front too early, before weight has transferred to the front. You know the people who stopped their learning, here. These are the dudes who are afraid of their front brake and think their rear brake is amazeballs.
As you get up to 30 mph, that's where the bike is still moving for a split second when the other "things of interest" begin to occur. The rear lock/slide will start to manifest. And depending on the bike, you will either start to be able to experience rear wheel lift, or you can start to experience front wheel lock/shudder while the front is loaded. This is where you learn to respect the importance of your front brake and begin to realize just how fast the rear brake becomes useless and must be released (released completely on most bikes; perhaps mostly released on some long cruisers) when braking hard on dry street.
If I were to teach people how you do it, I would make them stay here, in the 30-35 mph speed, until they can demonstrate purposeful excess of the limits of these phenomena. So they can experience and know what the limits are, for the main purpose of learning how to get to max braking fast as possible without causing these problems. Make them slide the rear tire. Make them either lift the rear tire or experience front lock/shudder under load. And be sure to explain that at higher speeds, these things are increasingly dangerous and potentially difficult to recover from, so they are to be avoided as you go on and increase the speeds to 65 mph! The point of this is to find the size and shape of the strike zone at a safe speed. It remains the same at higher speeds, just increasingly more dangerous and requiring ever faster reflexes and cool head to recover and to maintain/reattain maximum braking if/when you are to accidentally exceed these limits.
I have observed some instructors are a major impediment to motorcycle tech safety adoption because the old school mentality perceives it as a threat to their future livelihood or somehow skipping a right of passage by new riders into their elite group. You reference a first generation ABS system on a BMW which has nothing to do with current tech.. Now fast forward how many years and such a past example is completely irrelevant?
I just purchased 2022 Versys 1000 SE complete with 6-axis IMU. I am probably no where as skilled a rider as you are but with such system I could easily out perform you while you operate a similar bike without such aids in any random braking or acceleration test on a closed course consisting of turns or straight line with a mix of wet, sandy road , etc. Particularly where no practice is allowed and braking command is issued randomly and you are measured on your ability required to maintain minimum speed, brake in shortest possible distance while maintaining the intended line. That is more representative of real world, unpredictable street scenario and not fictional, preplanned exercise of accelerating to 50 and initiating a planned stop on best case dry pavement scenario. The truth of the matter is these advanced systems now exceed the capabilities of even expert riders and overcome limitations of human sensory capabilities.
The teaching of threshold braking with such new tech is obsolete thinking and will underperform modern systems in real world unpredictable conditions. It is less thinking, faster reaction time and ramping up brake pressure as soon as possible to scrub speed and stop in shortest distance possible. Then rider can instead focus on finding and executing safe out from any potential impact situation. When on motorcycle with 6 axis IMU in emergency situation you simply grab full front brake whether in a turn or in a straight line and system does the rest. Lean angle ABS will not only allow you to slow at maximum rate possible based on available traction but maintain a line in a turn without low siding.
If you don't accept what I stated then you are most likely deliberately ignoring the publically available information from Bosch, Continental, KTM, and other manufacturers whose testing video demonstrations, dats, and descriptions validate such tech works as promised. It well should work because it was first developed and in use by MotoGp riders since over 10 years ago.
@@kannermw What happens if the rider gets on a bike that doesn't have ABS? You do realize they still sale many bikes today without ABS. What happens if your abs malfunctions? You know that is why there is an abs light on every dash, because occasionally they malfunction.Teaching someone how to ride using threshold braking is not the only training they receive. They go on to learn maximum stopping distance using abs, trail braking, collision avoidance, skid pan, high speed pursuit, mountain riding, shooting from a motorcycle, etc. The police motor course is probably one of the most difficult riding courses to pass and unlike MotoGP, they must train for every situation they might experience riding in a urban and rural environment, which includes all types of surfaces, pot holes, sand, dirt, water, mud, driving up curbs, making u-turns uphill, downhill within 18' diameter.
@@capecrusader6932 I currently own 3 motorcycles and one doesn't have any electronic rider aids as it is DR650 dual sport. I started riding in late 70's off-road at age 14. When I received my motorcycle license endorsement at age 16 I already had 100s of hours off-road riding experience on steep, bumpy, rutted, or low traction terrain. My personal belief is no course in a controlled environment on pavement builds your skills in motorcycle dynamics, balance, and control as much as off-road. Now at that time 40 years ago there were no choice in advanced tech in motorcycles so if you wanted to ride you had no choice but to accept the risk. ABS wasn't even available in cars but became mandatory in cars in 2004. I live in upper midwest where there is snow and ice. I will never ignorantly suggest non ABS cars and pumping the brakes was ever as effective or simple as mashing the pedal with ABS and still maintaining steering control. I have never had a car in last 20 years with ABS have a system failure. The only three new motorcycles I have purchase since 2013 with ABS have NEVER had an ABS system failure. Having ABS does not affect your bility to learn how to properly modulate brakes effectively. When it intervenes you know when it happens and if anything it can teach you the margins of traction without having to fall on the pavement or worse.
We need to stop using lame excuses suggesting that current advanced tech is unreliable as that is simply not true. It is now long proven tech that is very reliable. Studies have proven ABS reduces motorcycle fatalities by 25%. Approximately 57% of total fatal motorcycle deaths are single vehicle accidents in curves. It is estimated that 6 axis IMU with lean angle ABS/traction control would reduce this death rate by 50% or more. With aging demographics comes decline in visual acuity, reaction times, and physical strength and coordination. These older experienced riders will benefit a well. Knowing what I know now I would never buy a motorcycle without advanced rider aids because it is simply not that expensive and better than any insurance policy at minimizing risk of permanent disability or death.
Safety instructors should be encouraging new riders to consider ONLY motorcycles with these advanced technologies instead of finding false excuses why they aren't that valuable. It is these least skilled riders most likely to be prevented from making their first and final mistake on the street. Then instructors should be instructing riders how to most effectively use motorcycles with ABS or advanced tech to its fullest and practice aggressive braking technique so they experience the dynamic effects in an emergency. They should also warn riders that simple ABS or simple traction control have inherent risks of causing low side or high side in a curve when not used properly as compared to those with advanced IMU.
We need more instructors to carry the torch for a better future in motorcycles. The history is not good as compared to other passenger vehicles in terms of reducing accid3ent or fatality rates from 20 plus years ago as compare to cars where federal government mandated safety in the form of ABS, airbags, etc. There is no need to wait for legislation if riders demand these things from manufacturers as standard equipment. ABS adds ~ $300 to cost of motorcycle and IMU tech another $400. A total of $700 is peanuts compared to the benefits of risk reduction in loss of life, lost income, pain and suffering, or a lifetime of disability.
I don't "panic break" I do hard break when a car next to me misses his turn and jumps into my lane without indicating or someone jumps out behind a car. ABS doesn't save me from panic breaking, I use it as a tool to stop shorter than I could without it and to slow down fast on a freeway when I really have to without skidding. ABS is awesome. The only reason I haven't bought a GSXR750 is they still haven't put ABS on it.
Thanks for the video. I would like to provide my counter-arguments for your three points.
1) Out on the road, you very frequently do not have a dry and clean road. Painted signs, metal manhole covers, dirt and sand on the road, wet road from rain and other sources etc all increase the risk of slip if you happen to be breaking when your wheel is currently over those. Even if you are on virgin clean and dry road, how much can an "experienced" rider outperform ABS by, in ideal conditions? 5 or 7%? That's insignificant. Also, not that I put "experienced" in quotation marks because most riders like to think that they are experienced, but 90% shit their guts out in an emergency situation and just slam the breaks because almost no one trains emergency breaking regularly.
2) Yes, it adds a bit of cost and complexity, but it all depends on what you are willing to pay for safety. Also, probably more than half of all bikes which have seen some action has been layed down at least once. This means that you loose money on repairs or on resale value. In this sense, the ABS system statistically pays for itself.
3) Well, the reason the government mandates things is because people don't understand the risk and it's often too late once you do. It's the same reason why wearing a certified helmet is mandatory.
A simple procedure like renewing your brake fluid and bleeding the system becomes a real PIA!
If you learn to ride on the road with a ABS only, you sure aren't going to develop a "feel" for braking traction that will allow you to do better than the ABS though offroad riding is a great way to learn this skill.
Yes if you go to a Motorcycle course they usually have bikes without ABS. You shouldn't rely on ABS because you don't have proper braking technique. That being said, having proper braking technique AND ABS is the perfect combo. It's one of if not the best safety feature you can get on your bike.
I was at HD in Korea (Daejeon). I told them I have a Vrod Muscle. They never heard of the Vrod here. I showed them my photos. I showed them the Birth of the Vrod documentary. Finally showed them your Muscle review. They told that they watch a lot of your videos. Many people here speak English and interpret your videos into Korean, Thought you would like to know. Your looking great!
Abs should be standart issue on motorcycle with an option to turn it off when you don't ned it. maybe the turn on and off part make it a bit expensive but making abs standard is a good thing because braking in rain is scary >~
I have been riding over 40 yrs and never had abs until my 2002 bmw 1150R I have just purchased. I also have a vfr 800 with abs that I am working on now and I have to say it is a royal pain in the ass to work around. The way I ride I can live without it. When it breaks it will be out of there as they offered both these bikes in non abs.
DAAAMN Lev, you dropped some WEIGHT!! Lookin good bro. I personally don't want ABS because I simply want FULL control of my bike. My Jeep is another story
Why would somebody give thumbs down?... they don't speak English?... maybe they do like ABS?... maybe they never give thumbs up?... or babies are randomly pushing buttons on papa's phone?... or the thumbs down are actually thumbs up in our neck in the woods?... anyway Lemmi's content is always amazingly good... so thumbs up from here Lemlem... btw... I can't believe Lemmi hits the gym.... even though he looks like it... there are rumors though about a bearded guy benchpressing motorcycles in a garage... a Grom I heard... now my question... do you have a Grom Lemmy??? 😉
Lemmy looks like heavily intoxicated Jason Mamoa🤔
Yea, but I bet if the MoCo gave Lem a bike he wouldn't spray paint it.
There's also a historical aspect of early generations of ABS turning brakes off on loose downhills BMW 1150 comes to mind. Latest Gen Euro4 ABS is very good and comes with rear wheel off switch.
Best thing about this video is Lemmy looking good from losing weight we are all proud of you Lemmy!!
Just crashed my bike while doing an emergency brake. If i had ABS i could have avoided the accident. ABS is a must for me now.
Are unified braking system (equivilent to abs) better than non abs on bikes?
At school they teach us on non abs bikes to learn how to control your bike if the tires lock up. We practice emergency breaking on non abs bikes and it certainly is great skill to have
I like the ABS on my V-Strom 1000 when on pavement. It is slower to brake On gravel, and it will flat out kill you On off road decents. I put a kill switch on it , so I can deactivate it when I get rowdy on gravel, or do off roading. Had some scary moments in Moab before I put the ABS switch on. Huge picker factor on loose downhills, when the ABS kicks in and won't lock the tires. I had the presence of mind to shut off the engine before I went off a cliff, thus shutting off ABS and allowing me to stop the bike.
Lemmy you looking good brother. Losing weight I see 💪🏿💪🏿 killing it.
For a dual propose bike i would like to have ABS on both but with the option of switching off a rear one. Front ABS are great no matter its on the dirt or the highway. It works quite well on emergency what they are made for.
Former motor officer, ABS saves lives. ABS should be standard on cruisers.
At the very least, having the option to disable ABS is a must. I chose a KLR as my first bike in part due to how it is a older machine. I wanted to learn to control a bike in its simplest form. I do concede that ABS would have been useful on more than one occasion. But the skill that I am forced to develop in regards to braking is both rewarding and exhilarating.
ABS might make motorcycles safer, and I wouldn’t mind the option, but I didn’t choose to ride because I’m 100% risk averse. I chose to ride because I wanted every decision I made to have an effect on me.
I'd love to hear what you think about the Bosch system especially on the new Indian Challenger since one of the minuses about standard ABS is stopping in a curve.
@@Miata822 yeah but how does it work in a motorcycle? 😋
I've been riding motorcycles for 10 years, I got in my first accident two months ago because my bike did not have ABS brakes. A car pulled in front of me as I was riding by, looks like they were not going to stop, so I panic braked and my rear wheel locked which threw me from the bike. I didn't have any broken bones, but my hand is sprained pretty bad and still sprained, and my bike was damaged. I am unsure if I'm going to continue riding, but if I do, I'm going to sell my current bike and purchase one with abs.
I’ve been riding for 30 years and I finally got a bike with ABS (Africa Twin) after saying I’d never own a bike with it. It’s nice knowing I have it. I’ve activated it once and was happy it was there. As more and more bikes come standard, the cost becomes negligible.
Lem, you forgot to mention the 4th, and most important reason; ABS MENTALITY. What does that mean? Well, ABS system is just a system to HELP with your extra strong braking in a situation where normal brakes would slide. BUT as you have probably figured out, a lot of riders say "Well, I do have ABS on my bike, so I can go that much faster...", which is completely wrong. It's the same thing with all rider aids, such as TC, and engine modes, cornering ABS and so forth. Instead of just having a tiny bit of safety net under us, there is a mentality that says: "Well, my bike has ALL the aids, so naturally I can go that much faster in a corner, even if I screw up, there are aids that will sort me out."
Well that'd be stupid. You really shouldn't ever be braking hard enough for the ABS to kick in while you're cornering, at that point you're going involuntarily off-road if you were going fast.
This subject is like carburator vs fuel injection. ABS vs Non ABS. I have been riding since 1974 on the street (no dirt riding). I have not crashed my motorcycle in all of that time. I have had 40 different motorcycles and have ridden over 1 million miles in that time. I have had BMWs with ABS, but most of my bikes do not have or have not had ABS. I have yet to need ABS so I don't know if it is better or not. How about 65 mph on Hwy 29, in Lake County CA, when 4 horses jumped out in front of me onto the highway.... In my head, "Front brake, front brake, front brake, look away from the horses, let go and turn." If you can't do that, you haven't been practicing for "what if" in your motorcycling life. My wife was on back and the forward push from her into me almost collapsed my arms. Luckily, I do tricep extensions to keep in "motorcycle riding shape." So, is ABS mandatory? No, motorcycle riding practice is mandatory. Like everything else in life, you can let others do things for you or you can do them yourself. You can let the manufacturer "learn braking" for you with ABS or you can practice for your own safety. No accidents with motorcycle in my life or riding. Practice, practice, practice. www.ridelikeapro.com with Jerry Paladino....
I'm new to motorcycling and learn a lot from your videos. Thanks.
My 2019 iron 883 does not have ABS because reason #2. A big factor in buying the bike was to get one I could do all the work on, because that is why one buys a Harley.
Just mu two cents here ....
I think a thing not to underestemate is if a rider learns riding with his first bike ... i have never owned a motorcycle with abs and im sure it has made me a better rider because of it .
It do however understand it can be a good addition to riders riding in severe weather tho
Just to provide a counterpoint, all of my bikes have had ABS. I think that by knowing exactly when the ABS is going to kick in has allowed me to test how much I can brake before wheel lock, without eating pavement, and thus improve my braking skills. Besides, it has saved my ass a couple of times with assholes cutting red lights.
@@dogman8339 counterpoint to both statements - those apply only in case the person is talented or continuous enough to learn and admit if he made a boo boo .
Countless times I see guys saved by the ABS that blame everything but not that they crewed up. Same with the no ABS bike ( and in my view every bike but still ) know your speed , the speed of all around you and because you don't have ABS to safe your ass plan ahead.
ABS systems don't detect loss of traction lemmy, they detect wheel lock.
Which, if you're on the brakes, is indicative of traction loss. The brakes still require the wheels to have traction to slow you down in relation to the ground. Using brakes while airborn or on ice does little to slow you down.
Living in Thailand now, i find i ride in heavy auto/motorcycle traffic, often at slow speeds. Abs is great for inexperienced drivers who dump their bikes after locking up the front brakes. I see it every day. Thanks Lem
Is ABS standard in Thailand? I found it interesting that scooters have auto engine stop start there to save fuel.
Michael Clark abs is not standard. I have a Yamaha n-max which has front and rear. I see inexperienced riders lock the front brake up all the time in traffic situations, and down they go.
My question to all the “experts” that can out brake an ABS system is can you still swerve to avoid what you are trying to miss while doing so., The whole point of abs on both cars and bikes is to maintain control under heavy braking rather than reducing braking distance.I personally feel that if you are braking to the point that abs intervenes then you are perhaps breaking too late or simply over breaking.Agree that it should be able to be disabled fully on an off road bike due to an entirely different riding style than road riding.
ABS vs non ABS seems to be the way of automatic vs manual cars. Everyone wants their manual transmissions to stay in circulation but when it gets down to it, automatics are starting to do everything better. People think they can perform better than the ABS module but realistically, its all computers that are vastly smarter and can handle conditions better. I can entirely see having the option to disable it, which most motorcycles do. But eventually everything will go the way of ABS.
ABS doesn't activate if you got braking skills. If it does, your tire had slipped at that moment without. If your ABS kicks in you are over-braking - what we all do in panic.
All cars have had abs mandatory for over a decade now but why shouldn't bikes? I specifically wanted an abs bike for my first motorcycle so I bought a new Kawasaki Z400 which comes with ABS standard in Australia and now since 2019 it's mandatory on all road motorcycles. You don't get car drivers complaining that they have abs.
I'm for non abs only b/c abs breeds complacency complacency makes for accidents. Controlling a motorcycle is the rides job and his or hers life vary well could depend on it. I don't like the idea of making them easier to ride. Car became so easy to operate not everyone in the road is complacent and distracted making it less safe then it used to be. I don't want the same for my motorcycle
Wait till it rains and you have to grab a shitload of brake, at that moment when poo is coming out your ass you’ll wish you had ABS
Thank you for educating me. Your inputs helped me.
To be fair ABS being $200-$500 more is offset pretty quickly with insurance discount on it sometimes. Best to compare with your insurer before purchase. Run a personal cost analysis.
My Yamaha '23 XSR apparently mixes front and back. Do I need to use the rear foot brake? I had an accident where I locked up the rear wheel, and probably let up on the front, and ran off the road, kissing the street. The rear brake skidding messed me up. For that one reason, I would of been far better off with this ABS, and not use the rear brake at all.
My first bike CBR300R doesn't have ABS and I am happy