The best part of this is how you didn’t even mention the fact that just five or six years ago a 3/4 for 3 with flying without a drawback was pretty crazy in and of itself
@@TheEvolver311I mostly agree with this, though I do think there are a lot of cards and design space around making cards that work better/only really work in multiplayer. Like Goad just wouldn't exist without "making commander cards". And even if they're auto-includes in almost every deck, I do really appreciate Command Tower and Arcane Signet.
@TheEvolver311 I agree that your suggestion would have been healthier for the game, but I think that the second money was a possibility they were inevitably going to exploit it to death
Power creep, release creep, and complexity creep all combine together to form that most powerful force: "Nah, there's about 50,000 other hobbies I could have, so I think I'll go do that instead. It will also probably have less creeps."
Pauper formats are gonna rise in popularity over the next few years. Callin it now we're gonna see pdh slowly take over or a resurgence of low power casual formats
Nadu honestly amazes me, I sorta can't believe they made him at 3 mana. Like risen reef still is powerful enough to see modern and pioneer play, and is powerful enough that all its massive downsides are ignored. Whereas Nadu is insanely better. I think he'd be really cool at 5 mana. But 3 mana + legendary is insane ;-;
@@Uri6060 The modern metagame will be filled with cards (at least in the sideboard) to prevent Nadu from ever hitting the board. The strength of the decks will rely on the rest of the deck. The best 56 card decks that can add Nadu will dominate.
I don't think that the problem with Nadu is the effect of the card but how insanely undercosted it is. Nadu is a 5 or 6 mana spell, making it only 3 mana was just plain ridiculous and a massive oversight.
I'll say this. With the ever speeding up of the powercreep this inherently shift how the power level of decks are perceived as well. The gap between 7 and 7 is getting wider. I think we need to now create sub commander formats like pre mh3 or pre mh2 or post mh3 etc. That or the committee needs to now take an active role in bans and possibly have seperate ban lists for cedh and commander officially seperate the formats.
Tomer didn't lie at all in any of this video. Only thing i disagreed with was AC set at the end of the video, but that's just because i hate UB in general. I'm a big pre modern era AC fan, but i don't like magic being invaded by my other IPs. But all this is why i keep my eye open for a game to replace magic for me. I tried chess for a bit, complexity is there, but the freedom of expression and permutations in deck building aren't. I came from Yu Gi Oh, and definitely not going back. I hear good things about flesh and blood, but i don't know about getting into another card game when I've got 20 years in this one that isn't digital..
Ive started to play magic just 1,5 years ago and we started with pioneer decks but after 2 months we started with commander precons of lord of the rings. After that we never touched another gamemode. Its so much more fun to play more different cards instead of playing the same strategy every game. Yes it is also possible in commander but in generell the decks are very expensive. With that said i love magic expescially commander but this game is eating my money holy shit.
I wonder if, ultimately, we would need to move to Canadian Highlander to keep the game enjoyable, and just limit the amount of broken cards you can put in a deck.
When internally testing Nadu against Ruby I can see how they were like, whatever it does wont matter if you die to storm the turn before you play it... BUT... BAN NADU!!!
I was shocked playing against the urza precon. I always keep some fairly low-power decks to play with new players so that everyone has a good time. If it had a half decent mana base, that urza deck could over power some of my more tuned decks. And it’s not because the cards in the precon are great, it’s because Urza (abzan) is pushed to such a crazy degree.
Commanders just do too much now. The commander just builds the deck for you now. And there's so many busted staples you basically have to run, the number of slots in your deck you have any creative control over are getting smaller and smaller. It's really sad.
I think wotc wanted a good combo in Modern and that's what it was pushed. Then, they made it a commander bc they wanted more legends. Both Modern power and EDH greedy needs pushed this one.
definitely. it makes me feel so cool finding something that's drawback negating other drawbacks(new necro turns off death triggers, there are some cards with negative death triggers)
@edhdeckbuilding this take sounds a lot like your take a week ago. The soft rotation and being tired of constantly updating your deck. Btw, big fan of the channel!
The “More cards less brewing options paradox” section really hit home. Because there are SO many cards that are designed for exactly what we are trying to do, even our own home “brews” are becoming pre-cons. Ooof…
Too be fair that's definitely not the case and more emblematic of the problems with Edhrecs as a website. Due to the way Prosper was printed it is not at all an easy card to find, and once you do find it it's definitely not cheap. The problem with Edhrecs however is that since it sorts everything by popularity, and most people just build the popular decks, it leads to very inbred data that vastly overrepresents their actual use or effectiveness. This is why pretty often when you see the "recommended cards" you'll see some really comical numbers for inclusion rates, even when objectively better options exist
No one at a commander table at my LGS knows what everyone else's cards do anymore. It's absolutely the case of what Tomer mentioned. We just mostly ignore each other's boards until we need to boardwipe to keep the boardstate simpler.
why not just ask what the cards do? i’ve had the same issue because i run some jank and people maybe haven’t seen a dreamscape artist good way to talk different cards and strats.
This would be fine, except it really slows down play. Not just the asking and reading, but the extra decision making time because you're needing to re-read and consider the implications of all these new cards. It also leads to feel-bad moments when you just couldn't keep all 15 unfamiliar cards on the table straight in your head and you misplayed.
@@6laccdemarcoyeah, as a new player, I would have to stop and read every card. When each player has 10. different triggers on the same turn it is a bit overwhelming
"Firehose product" is entirely why I stopped giving any semblance of a shit about spoiler seasons. I actually buy almost no new product anymore, I used to buy multiple boxes of a set when it came out.
Yep, it was totally feasible to get excited for and buy tons of each set when they were 3 months apart with nothing in between and also when the sets were super well designed for standard. I miss sets like Innistrad, OG Zendikar, Alara, Khans, Return to Ravnica.... Everything now is so unbalanced becasue of edh and too... sterile... too "on rails"... and too punny.
That's kinda the business model they have though. Everything is more powerful than the previous set, meaning it's always "the best time to jump in", then you stick around for a few sets and realize you can't afford to keep playing so seriously.
I have a hard time playing commander anymore-I always liked to build jank decks with weird themes with my playgroup. We used to be able to say, "Hey--there are 1 or 2 exceedingly powerful commanders, so let's not use them." Now, we see huge hitters coming out relatively often and jank/niche commanders have become a thing of the past. My LGS suffers from the same symptoms. Nothing wrong with playing high-power commander, but I can't really find a spot to play my jank without getting stomped or feeling like I'm making it a 3-player game.
The entire video I was screaming "This same problem is happening to Yu-Gi-Oh!" It's hard to support an eternal format without power creep, because WOTC and Konami need to create an incentive for players to buy/play new cards (not just always the old ones). One way to do that is rotation, the other is power creep.
They powercreep the current sets too. The whole "we use set rotation to keep things balanced" went out the window years ago. They keep printing power crept cards anyway.
@@NecromancyForKidsthis mainly comes from wanting every set to be the best selling set ever, since that is what hasbro wants, and if you print a lower powered set then it won't sell as well
Regarding deck building freedom, I would say personally my enjoyment of deckbuilding has shifted to 1) not using expensive staples and 2) now that some archetypes have a bunch of cards printed for them, the "autobuilt best deck" is often more than 100 cards, so the deck building becomes more about deck culling to stylize the deck in your own way. Not saying this is the best way or enjoyable for everyone. But in some ways, the old deckbuilding used to have even more staples because there werent as many oddly specific synergy pieces that would work better in your deck than a basic staple.
Nadu reminds me of Oko, Thief of Crowns in that some minor tweaks to the card probably would have made it acceptable (e.g. like how Oko probably would have been fine if its starting loyalty wasn't so high). If you only had to target Nadu instead of "creatures you control have", if the card was limited to spells instead of spells and abilities, if it was a scry versus a draw, if the lands came into play tapped, etc.
If it didnt trigger off of opponents and your effects Its really frustrating to kill nadu (and you will lose if you don't) and they just hit a land off the top that they use to protect nadu AND get another trigger.
oko’s problem isn’t the starting loyalty, it’s the speed he gains it. Oko needed to have the elk be a -1 or a 0 at most, and the food to be a +1. I play timeless and okos easily get to 11+ loyalty if you don’t have a clean answer to them.
@@surfinggarchomp2820 You're not wrong, but neither is op. If Oko started with 2 loyalty, elking an opponent's creature gives them a 3/3 that can one shot Oko. Lower loyalty isn't as good as Oko elking being a -1, but it helps.
Oh Tomer don't be silly.... The Kaldra commander will just be the full assembled avatar on a legendary creature, you won't even need to run the pieces, it will even create tokens of them XD
The playgroup I was in at the time Brawl came out LOVED it.. Almost every game in between league pairings was Brawl instead of EDH for like two or three months. And then the first rotation time came up and every ounce of interest evaporated over night.
I haven't played Magic in about 6 years. Back in the day, I played predominantly cEDH, but I stopped playing about a year after the "Fire" design philosophy started in the original Eldraine set. And back then, I felt everything that you're saying in this video. - Fire design causes rotation - Wizards were getting greedier - The new "reserve list" with Universes Beyond licensing - The massively increased release schedule - The impact of surprise power crept cards on casual games. - The rules committee being far to passive with the banlist. One of my most hated cards ever printed is Jeweled Lotus. That card sucks, so, much. In a casual game, if you have that in your opening hand, you just win. Watching people get their commander out 3 turns earlier than anyone else at the table, well before anyone else at the table was ready for it, just sucks. And there have been more egregious cards since then. Cards like Chulane was also just a mistake. Any card that ramps and draws carda at the same time just make the game way too easy. And lastly, having only one card banned in the past 6 years give me no hope for the rules committee doing anything for the health of the format.
@@project_swift To be fair, back in the day we had Oloro and Prossh as well. Food Chain and Eminence before there was Eminence were a pain to deal with, were busted cards in their own right, and they were such ridiculous engines, that many people were locked into either hating them out at tables, or losing to their value engines.
And now they've also announced that Duskmourn will be released on the 27th of September - just like 8 weeks from the release of Bloomburrow, so we will start getting previews and stuff for Duskmourn basically right after the release of Bloomburrow. Releases don't have any room to breathe anymore and as a player you don't have time to delve into the new cards and experiment, it's just previews after previews after previews and cards that are more and more optimized to be powerful. Oh, you are excited about a cool card you found for your deck in Bloomburrow, just you wait, next week we will announce three more cards that are even more powerful. Meanwhile the lore side is also getting less and less time and attention. They get good writers and then give them like two weeks to write two installments of the story that have to contain all of the events in the new set.
One thing I feel isn't mentioned nearly enough about the "this product just might not be for you" approach is... How tf do I know that before paying attention to it? This product might not be for me sure but if it is I would def like to know
The issue I have with Nadu is just how awful it is to play and vs since the loops are non deterministic so you have to play through it all since they might whiff and not be able to win the game and it takes 20 years for the combo to go off
Wait... So you do not like watching forever-turns? Not even if I put in hundreds of game actions that have little impact on the game outcome? You must be crazy! The best thing about playing Magic is when you don't get to play magic!
It's bittersweet to hear you reach the same conclusion I reached about 3 years ago. It's that moment where you don't feel good saying, "I told you so..." because nobody wins.
I've had quite a lot of difficulty with commander. I build a lot of decks, like, a LOT. Mostly because I have the time to build, proxy, and cut(i'm doing it right now), but I find myself being drawn to not building things revolving around older cards, because I know they won't match up against the continually improving decks my opponents bring.
Video is 40 min long, was published 8 minutes ago, and people are already saying Tomer is wrong lol. I'll wait til I finish the video before I decide if I agree with him or not. EDIT: Surprise, I agree with Tomer. I usually do. It really sucks being that guy in my friend group that tries to keep the power-level down low when the awesome new cards come out because I feel like the fun police. No one wants to sit through someone else's fifteen minute turn every game, tho.
I agree with Tomer that Commander was created with the mindset that it was supposed to be casual. That you could run ANYTHING, and you would be fine. The problem with the concept itself that I just recently learned from interviewing thousands of magic players is that there is nothing defining what a "casual deck" really is. Yes, we have the deck ranking system that has changed many times over the years. But again, that is always up to interpretation. Some would say "my deck is about a 5 or a 6. Very casual. Only 4 combos, and I run just a couple tutors to get to them. But it doesnt go off until like turn 7 or 8." And you would get others that would say "my deck is about a 6 or a very low seven. I run no combos, no tutors, very little ramp, and my win con is combat damage." These are just two examples of the differences on how people perceive what "casual" means. I feel, the best way to solve this, is to start assigning power points to cards themselves. It wouldnt be very painstaking at all. Most card databases like Moxfield and TappedOut already have this function, the number would just need to be assigned. Depending on the total points of your deck, it would indicate what power level your deck would be at. For example, anything combo related would be assigned a high value, as the more combos you add to a deck, the less and less of a "casual" deck you have. Same with tutors. This would take away any guesswork from the player who would say "I run a very casual Nadu deck".
This would be trickier than you might think. Combos are the perfect example for this. I have no idea how many cards currently make a combo with kikijiki but i personaly just use it to recur etbs. So would that make him a high value card? Or does a combo have to be in the deck in full? The other side is that many other combo cards are subpar to straight up bad if used outside of combos so where would their value be? All in all i think going with something like the canadian highlander system were only superpowered cards have a limiting value or, even better just seperating high and low power commander (not talking avout cedh, they got themselves worked out) including banlists and potential rulechanges (maybe allow low powered edh to use a sideboard for wish effects and lesson cards, or lower starting live to 30) to make the formats distinct, but essentially compatiple.
@@joshholmes1372 Rule 0 is only realy a thing if you have a semi fixxed playgroup. If your access to edh is lgs´s or online gaming you are effectively out of luck.
I hear you, but that tells people they aren't allowed to have a casual game if they like combos or have a potential combo card in the deck. Casual, to me at least, is a mindset more than the decks being played
As a yugioh player, I've noticed high amounts of powercreep doesn't really jive with more casual formats. In addition to having to keep up with buying new product, stronger cards just tend to have a higher skill floor in terms of playing them properly without the game just devolving into a steam roll. I can only imagine its worse in commander with it being a 4 player game and being able to run away with it if you're given a free turn just seems like an unhealthy dynamic.
While everyone seems to be playing their split second “cry about it” common card I’m floored about the numbers of people that have not experienced a tournament. Get out and come experience a new table! you can play as a “competitive casual” player. Bring silly jank, bad junk, crazy five card combos or 40 counter spells (lol we have all done that). Come visit a new kitten table.
Omo: I am a popular 3 mana simic commander from mh3 because my ability is interesting and cool. You are a popular 3 mana simic commander from mh3 because you are incredibly powerful. We are not the same
I always wonder how Mark can be so confident about the ratio of kitchen table to event-going people. Like since a kitchen table person isn't likely to see a MTG poll in order to respond, how could he gather that data short of something fallible like querying if the same name on a credit card shows up at an FNM or something.
I mean, it is just statistically true. Most people dont care much for the formats or meta, they just buy a couple every now and again and play a couple games with their buddies, like a board game. It's honestly strange to me to see invested players needing such an indepth definition for what a casual player is. It's the same with literally every hobby: most people in a hobby are very casual, surface level enjoyers of it, because it's much easier and more accessible to do that than get seriously invested. I myself have been playing magic since innistrad and yeah, I've never gone to a single event ever. Just playing with my friends here and there. I don't need all the official whatevers to have fun with a neat game.
Most players start at an LGS in my experience, and those players likely spend WAY more over time than casual players. It just makes sense to cater to invested players rather than just make everything a commander set.
@marshallscotif you have played a game of magic in the past and you wouldn't despise playing another game sometime in the future you're a casual player
@marshallscot Wotc has the stats to show like X amount of Millions of products are purchased per year, whereas X thousands of people sign up for sanctioned events. The data is in the lack of data, if that makes sense. If they're selling all sorts of product but only seeing a small fraction of those buyers at events, it must mean that the majority are Casuals who don't attend events.
ever since they started printing multiple unset style cards with rulestext from unsets like the new jhoira I've really been turned off of buying new cards that should be silver bordered and double downed on my buying of $0.30 cards with massive downsides that are bad for your health and proxying. wotc and daddy hasbro really should appeal towards the audience and creating things that don't lead to an apocalyptic economic collapse.
The sad thing as well is that like- for a commander, the thing you're supposed to design your deck around, generic "draw more cards and play more lands" is just... boring? Like, they might as well be a card with no text at all other than "win more"
this is why pretty recently, my playgroup has started shifting back to how commander used to be where you just grab cards from your collection and play, not buying whole decks of tcg player etc, and it has been way more fun actually seeing cards you don't get to see every day
My friend cracked Nadu at draft and decided to make a deck using it not understanding why the rest of our group was dreading someone deciding to build it. Their "casual" build still regularly wins by turn 6 just due to overwhelming resources unless the table dogpiles the Nadu player or so(me)one is playing stax. There's also a lot of arms race play going on in my general area where people are running limited interaction having the mindset that "if I'm the problem the table needs to respond to me" instead. It's leading to every deck requiring the newest most busted cards, which is driving me to play things I don't enjoy just to have a game last more than 5 turns. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see that mindset as an issue, but me playing Lavinia stax as a response to it is "problematic."
@@klaiken989not 99%, maybe like 10% of people don’t like Nadu. Most people actually really love Nadu because people like strong cards. Most people are casual and don’t care.
@@entertainmentinc9735 While I agree that its probably only like 10% of players who actively complain about the card, I also don't think that means the other 90% of players do like him. I think most people probably haven't fully decided yet, and it'll probably take a lot more people playing against it to see what the general opinion is. Players love strong cards, but a strong card has to both be strong and fun to play/play against to positively impact the format.
@@klaiken989this wasn't a defence of nadu though? This was pointing out nadu is a symptom of current commander design, and how that has changed over time. He never said nadu wasn't a poorly made card, hell he pointed out how it can be called a design mistake by the definition of some of the people at wizards. The title isn't a bait and switch, it's "nadu is a problem, here's how this has happened"
no offense tomer but nadu was actually designed for modern. I don't think modern sets or any set that isn't commander specific should be worrying about how it's going to impact commander. The rules committee should just ban it if it's that big of a problem, THAT is the real issue, not the design team not policing their designs for a casual format
Stella Lee is a good example of this too. Mizzix of the Izmagus (my beloved) came out in C15 and has a bit over 4700 decks listed on EDHREC. Stella Lee, Wild Card came out with the release of outlaws of thunder junction commander and is about to overtake Mizzix, likely by the end of the week at time of writing this.
Hey Tomer? I really like your solo content. Your involvement in general but these videos in particular are what brings me back to this channel time after time. Thank you for putting yourself out there for us to see!
Non notes, perfect summary. The only way I brew Commander nowadays in casual is with self-restrictions to not do expected things or staple inclusions. If I want that high performance Drama I like cEDH, which is in a somewhat healthy state still, due to more busted interaction cards as well.
The year is 2026. Wizards releases a legendary creature that's 1 blue, 1 green, and one other. It draws the top 20 cards of your deck and puts all lands from your hand into play.
Nadu's a design mistake for myriad reasons. Frankly, I'm not convinced designers wanted it to trigger twice for each creature; several MH cards have "Creatures you control have [text]" that could have been worded so the ability is on the granting card; for example: Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, do THING. This ability triggers only twice each turn. Is this what the designers wanted and someone from templating messed it up? Maybe. "This ability triggers only N times per turn" is also a robust design mistake in itself; once per turn effects traditionally have been tap effects (you know, one of the central mechanics of the game) or upkeep, combat phase, etc. triggers. Zendikar Rising (?) introduced "The first time you gain life this turn, do X" which is, I think, the best templating for this kind of limited trigger mechanic. It's more elegant, less text, AND doesn't reset with blinking/bounce/etc. More than that, though, this is just lazy; it's like the designers didn't want to bother testing cards, or balancing them, so they just nerfed them in the most counter-intuitive way possible. As for Nadu, though, the problem here is the Panharmonicon or KCI problem; it's a nondeterministic win condition; you can have 10 minute turns and not win the game; in 2 player formats this is bad; and in 4 player formats it's worse. Maybe the designers forgot about the myriad "Landfall - creature a creature" cards that exist, or forgot that Rampant Growth puts lands into play tapped for a reason... but these aren't exactly minor oversights. In short; this is rife with problems that any editor or experienced magic designer could have caught at any number of stages in the design process, so either (a) they're all incompetent, or (b) they skipped the design phases expected to catch these obvious mistakes.
I wish we can go back 12 years ago to when sets were made for standard, with a few cards sprinkled in for eternal formats. It's what gave Magic crazy longevity and manageable power creep. Standard decks used to cost like $200 at most, I can't remember exactly. It was the format to get players in and teach them the mechanics because it was cheap comparatively to other formats. Also gave a use for the cards people would pick up from limited events. Now these shifted priorities for profit and an eternal format are just causing so many problems, especially LGS's and new players. As someone that runs Magic events at an LGS, it can be a challenge mixing players of various skill levels for fair and interactive games. Especially without incorporating any biases that I may subconsciously or consciously have. I also hate that Wizards official stance on product fatigue is "Don't buy every set" It's crazy that a company's answer to complaints about product is "Don't buy our product". It's very dismissive of players that are actively trying to engage with your product / service.
I left yugioh after 10 years, to instead play mtg EDH and occasionally pauper. Yugioh power creep and the fact you can auto lose by not winning the die roll got very old. EDH when i started in 2019 was definitely more casual than it is now. Games rarely ended before turn 8. The issue is now you cannot buy a precon & play a game on the same level as most ppl that go to any lgs. I love precons, low power decks and big ramp battlecruisers…but unfortunately with insane power creep, a do nothing rules committee, and a lack of self control in deck building, we end up with borderline cedh metas for what is supposed to be kitchen magic format.
Ive been thinking a lot recently about how you can solve the logical paradox of casual eternal magic. I love brewing, i love weird drawbacks and build arounds. How do you create a format where staples arent everywhere? I have no idea.. one thing i was considering was a point system ljke Warhammer. But of course that adds a lot of complexity and the power of cards can be relative. Regarding precons, they could literally be like 60 card precons with no new designs. This creates playable and powerful decks for new players without diluting jank pet cards. Of course the issue is sales
It’s so funny to me that I got the Desert Bloom precon, because a self-mill landfall deck sounded fun, has already had cards printed that I feel power creep cards that came in the precon. Rampant frogantua feels like it was meant for the desert deck but was slotted into Omo instead
When this card was spoiled, we all asked ourselves why the F would WOTC print this card. This is card is so good and it makes it awkward knowing that Prime Time is still banned when this card exists.
A lot of what is going on in MTG design is not for me. That started being true 5 years ago. But it seems like people at my lgs and online seem to enjoy it. I hope that is true across the community but I won't be around to see it. Happy for the masses but MTG isn't for me.
Nadu doesn’t really fit in MH3 limited. Blue/Green is Eldrazi and he puts cards into hand instead of drawing them for Blue. Pretty obvious it was intended for commander.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305they’re talking about limited. The Dimir archetype cares about drawing cards so it doesn’t work well with that. Not that all rares have to be designed for limited, but that’s what they are talking about
No, it was made for modern. And in that format, it's looking extremely powerful but also probably fine, creating new archetypes without destroying old ones, exactly what modern players wanted out of modern horizons.
I mean he’s not the only one that doesn’t fit MH3 limited. Phlage, Kudo, Rosheen and Abstruse Appropriation don’t fit their respective archetypes either.
The latest sets have really bad flavor so as a vorthos player basically none of the new cards intrest me, MH3 is the first set in a while that at least feels like a real magic set and not a gimmick joke set, non-stop un-set vibes lately imo
Really enjoyed this video Tomer, and it articulates a similar feeling I've been having with commander. I could go on for hours about my feelings, but that's too much typing lol. Commander is still very fun and my favorite way to play magic, but it definitely has changed since I started playing
3 mana 3/4 with flying? I bet a playset of vanilla cards with those stats would cause problems on their own. Let's just give it card draw on etb or whenever it attacks. That still would have been good. Sheesh.
I'm kinda amazed that they haven't allowed *any* legendary to be your commander, yet. That would be some hilarious power creep, I'd be tossing Westvale Abbey into my command zone SO FAST. 🤣
On the more cards less brewing option. I came too a point that there is so many option that playing the 10th or 15th option for an archetype feel real cool while still being playable . I like prosper but i enjoy Doc Aurlock a lot more I feel UNIQUE ! I have to work for it. Wich is different than building an archetype from scratch but still feel great. Creativity is still present just in a different way.
I mean it wasn’t designed for commander was it, it’s just bad all around. To expand on this, commander should have virtually no impact on design for 60 card competitive formats, why would Wizards(or any competence entity) cut off fun design space in their maximally sanctioned competitive format in case of distinct interactions in a 4-player causal format. In particular this is exactly what the commander banlist is 4, when the designers decide to play around with simic at a modern, or in this case higher, power-level, just ban it from commander, job done - and if that isn't going to be the case oh well? Its a casual format that has basically every card legal - why is the design team responsible for how to police a format in which people don't play competitively optimal decks?
An easy way to stop power creep, is to stop with FOMO. Grow up. We’re adults. Who cares if you miss out on some cards. Also just stop these powerful cards. If WOTC sees its players stop playing with these powerful cards, then they will stop making them. All people do is complain about these cards, but they still end up playing with them. I refuse to play them. I may be the only player that does this. Us players have all the control but none of y’all are smart enough to figure it out. Just Stop
If the vast majority keep doing something wrong, then it’s a systemic issue not an individual one. We’re adults, we can recognize things are bad and holding people with the power accountable.
The best part of this is how you didn’t even mention the fact that just five or six years ago a 3/4 for 3 with flying without a drawback was pretty crazy in and of itself
Feather the redeemer came out 5 years ago!! I feel so old
3 mana vanila 3/4 with flying is a bomb in limited. Now add the wall of text of nadu
Man I hate wotc so much it's unreal.
imagine how this card would work out today all this fancy meta w/r energy decks....
Came for the bird hat. Stayed for the bird hat but also the discussion about card design
im gonna delete my comment because this deserves to be top comment hahaha
Tomer looks adorable.
I didn't notice the hat was a chicken. Yes I play mono green in commander, how could you tell?
"Quickly moving away from the original appeal of Commander"? We are already beyond what the original idea of EDH was.
And it's getting worse by the year
Yeah, it's no longer fun to sit down a table with strangers and play a game.
They should have never designed commander specific cards
@@TheEvolver311I mostly agree with this, though I do think there are a lot of cards and design space around making cards that work better/only really work in multiplayer. Like Goad just wouldn't exist without "making commander cards". And even if they're auto-includes in almost every deck, I do really appreciate Command Tower and Arcane Signet.
@TheEvolver311 I agree that your suggestion would have been healthier for the game, but I think that the second money was a possibility they were inevitably going to exploit it to death
Power creep, release creep, and complexity creep all combine together to form that most powerful force:
"Nah, there's about 50,000 other hobbies I could have, so I think I'll go do that instead. It will also probably have less creeps."
"Weasels of the Coast" lol perfect slip of the tongue
Pauper formats are gonna rise in popularity over the next few years. Callin it now we're gonna see pdh slowly take over or a resurgence of low power casual formats
Nadu honestly amazes me, I sorta can't believe they made him at 3 mana.
Like risen reef still is powerful enough to see modern and pioneer play, and is powerful enough that all its massive downsides are ignored.
Whereas Nadu is insanely better.
I think he'd be really cool at 5 mana. But 3 mana + legendary is insane ;-;
I will admit tho, during spoiler I thought the decks would be waaay to janky to be successful. Lol
@@Uri6060
The modern metagame will be filled with cards (at least in the sideboard) to prevent Nadu from ever hitting the board. The strength of the decks will rely on the rest of the deck. The best 56 card decks that can add Nadu will dominate.
Nadu should have been like
Once per turn per creature
Land etbt
X/3
+1 or +2 mana
And it still would've been insane
I don't think that the problem with Nadu is the effect of the card but how insanely undercosted it is. Nadu is a 5 or 6 mana spell, making it only 3 mana was just plain ridiculous and a massive oversight.
Yeah, my spirits deck just basically does the millicent thing now.
I'll say this. With the ever speeding up of the powercreep this inherently shift how the power level of decks are perceived as well. The gap between 7 and 7 is getting wider. I think we need to now create sub commander formats like pre mh3 or pre mh2 or post mh3 etc. That or the committee needs to now take an active role in bans and possibly have seperate ban lists for cedh and commander officially seperate the formats.
Very well thought out. Thank you for making this video. Nadu is broken ( says the Voja player) 😅
How is there no ad Here?
Did Papa Hasbro get mad?
Tomer didn't lie at all in any of this video. Only thing i disagreed with was AC set at the end of the video, but that's just because i hate UB in general. I'm a big pre modern era AC fan, but i don't like magic being invaded by my other IPs.
But all this is why i keep my eye open for a game to replace magic for me. I tried chess for a bit, complexity is there, but the freedom of expression and permutations in deck building aren't. I came from Yu Gi Oh, and definitely not going back. I hear good things about flesh and blood, but i don't know about getting into another card game when I've got 20 years in this one that isn't digital..
The solution is a new commander slot dedicated to legendary artifacts
Null rod, Null Rods everywhere
Dude, I just play cube now. I've been priced and pushed out of commander. I just can't stand the newer cards, and sets are too expensive to buy into.
I'm starting to build one now because of this, and I'll just snag some strong, cheap pieces to shuffle in and out lol
Ive started to play magic just 1,5 years ago and we started with pioneer decks but after 2 months we started with commander precons of lord of the rings. After that we never touched another gamemode. Its so much more fun to play more different cards instead of playing the same strategy every game. Yes it is also possible in commander but in generell the decks are very expensive.
With that said i love magic expescially commander but this game is eating my money holy shit.
I wonder if, ultimately, we would need to move to Canadian Highlander to keep the game enjoyable, and just limit the amount of broken cards you can put in a deck.
When internally testing Nadu against Ruby I can see how they were like, whatever it does wont matter if you die to storm the turn before you play it...
BUT...
BAN NADU!!!
I was shocked playing against the urza precon. I always keep some fairly low-power decks to play with new players so that everyone has a good time. If it had a half decent mana base, that urza deck could over power some of my more tuned decks. And it’s not because the cards in the precon are great, it’s because Urza (abzan) is pushed to such a crazy degree.
There is no Abzan Urza. I guess you mean Esper?
@@avall0nNn1992 edited, thanks haha
Commanders just do too much now. The commander just builds the deck for you now. And there's so many busted staples you basically have to run, the number of slots in your deck you have any creative control over are getting smaller and smaller. It's really sad.
We are moving from 4cmc commanders that do all the job to 3cmc commanders that do all the job
Nadu, Winged Wisdom is a trap. This Legendary creature is a trap. It's "too much" to be casual and just not enough for CEDEH play
Nadu is fine in the 99 of every Simic deck in existence. In the Command Zone it's a problem.
I think wotc wanted a good combo in Modern and that's what it was pushed. Then, they made it a commander bc they wanted more legends. Both Modern power and EDH greedy needs pushed this one.
Much agree on literally all these points
Bring back cards with drawbacks. It makes you feel clever working around the drawback, and adds a real impact to card selection.
Exactly this, cards these days are all upside which just makes the game more one sided and easier to play.
Yep, agree 100%
What about that 4 mana 6/6 oily flier.
Also the lovely Song of Creation.
There are less, but they still exist.
definitely. it makes me feel so cool finding something that's drawback negating other drawbacks(new necro turns off death triggers, there are some cards with negative death triggers)
how do i give this comment more thumbs up? can i give more than 1?
"nothing is exciting anymore". yeah that sums it up for me. i remember when i actually used to look forward to spoilers.
Love your content mate!
Let's all stick together and create a 2020 Pre format 😂
@edhdeckbuilding this take sounds a lot like your take a week ago. The soft rotation and being tired of constantly updating your deck. Btw, big fan of the channel!
@@weeklyweeks7545 indeed, i was getting deja vu watching this.
@@nelsikegamingpreDH is a format for 2011 and before. So i dont think before 2020 would be super useful. But hey go for.
The “More cards less brewing options paradox” section really hit home. Because there are SO many cards that are designed for exactly what we are trying to do, even our own home “brews” are becoming pre-cons. Ooof…
Holy shit I didn't realize prosper had double the amount of decks than the next leading rakdos commander.
One of the best precon commanders in a while and he's just fun to play. So not surprising. Ob nix should be more popular though
Too be fair that's definitely not the case and more emblematic of the problems with Edhrecs as a website. Due to the way Prosper was printed it is not at all an easy card to find, and once you do find it it's definitely not cheap. The problem with Edhrecs however is that since it sorts everything by popularity, and most people just build the popular decks, it leads to very inbred data that vastly overrepresents their actual use or effectiveness. This is why pretty often when you see the "recommended cards" you'll see some really comical numbers for inclusion rates, even when objectively better options exist
Which is crazy cause prosper isnt the best nor most fun rakdos commander
The F.I.R.E design was so strong it removed at least 15 deck boxes behind Tomer @22:50
I can’t breathe ahahah
*Tomer packing for Amsterdam* I just need a few of my favorite decks...
No one at a commander table at my LGS knows what everyone else's cards do anymore. It's absolutely the case of what Tomer mentioned. We just mostly ignore each other's boards until we need to boardwipe to keep the boardstate simpler.
Yessssss. I'm at a point I hope for a wipe just to simplify things, not as a strategic move.
why not just ask what the cards do? i’ve had the same issue because i run some jank and people maybe haven’t seen a dreamscape artist good way to talk different cards and strats.
This would be fine, except it really slows down play. Not just the asking and reading, but the extra decision making time because you're needing to re-read and consider the implications of all these new cards. It also leads to feel-bad moments when you just couldn't keep all 15 unfamiliar cards on the table straight in your head and you misplayed.
@@6laccdemarcoyeah, as a new player, I would have to stop and read every card. When each player has 10. different triggers on the same turn it is a bit overwhelming
Sounds like bad magic players who dont run any interaction tbh. We always pay attention to the board even when crossfaded lol. Skill issue honestly
Nadu is a warning sign of things to come, a herald of the power creep not a one-off mistake.
@@omegavulture8379 toe that was Oko
@@omegavulture8379 or Uro
@@omegavulture8379 questing beast
@@omegavulture8379 Once upon a time
@@omegavulture8379 Eldraine is where the shit hit the fan
"Firehose product" is entirely why I stopped giving any semblance of a shit about spoiler seasons.
I actually buy almost no new product anymore, I used to buy multiple boxes of a set when it came out.
Exactly my experience too.
Yep
Yep, it was totally feasible to get excited for and buy tons of each set when they were 3 months apart with nothing in between and also when the sets were super well designed for standard.
I miss sets like Innistrad, OG Zendikar, Alara, Khans, Return to Ravnica.... Everything now is so unbalanced becasue of edh and too... sterile... too "on rails"... and too punny.
That's kinda the business model they have though. Everything is more powerful than the previous set, meaning it's always "the best time to jump in", then you stick around for a few sets and realize you can't afford to keep playing so seriously.
Its hard to get excited about a new thing, when theres a new thing every month.
I have a hard time playing commander anymore-I always liked to build jank decks with weird themes with my playgroup. We used to be able to say, "Hey--there are 1 or 2 exceedingly powerful commanders, so let's not use them." Now, we see huge hitters coming out relatively often and jank/niche commanders have become a thing of the past. My LGS suffers from the same symptoms. Nothing wrong with playing high-power commander, but I can't really find a spot to play my jank without getting stomped or feeling like I'm making it a 3-player game.
The brawlification of commander definitely seems to be the intent from wizards, great observation!
The entire video I was screaming "This same problem is happening to Yu-Gi-Oh!"
It's hard to support an eternal format without power creep, because WOTC and Konami need to create an incentive for players to buy/play new cards (not just always the old ones). One way to do that is rotation, the other is power creep.
I’d rather have rotations then power creep, I’m tired of turn 0 grief, and thoughtseize. Tired of ragavan, tired of free casting in general.
They powercreep the current sets too. The whole "we use set rotation to keep things balanced" went out the window years ago. They keep printing power crept cards anyway.
That is why it is bad when everyone abandoned competitive because we need both that and EDH or WOTC ruins EDH with power creep.
@@NecromancyForKidsthis mainly comes from wanting every set to be the best selling set ever, since that is what hasbro wants, and if you print a lower powered set then it won't sell as well
Regarding deck building freedom, I would say personally my enjoyment of deckbuilding has shifted to 1) not using expensive staples and 2) now that some archetypes have a bunch of cards printed for them, the "autobuilt best deck" is often more than 100 cards, so the deck building becomes more about deck culling to stylize the deck in your own way.
Not saying this is the best way or enjoyable for everyone. But in some ways, the old deckbuilding used to have even more staples because there werent as many oddly specific synergy pieces that would work better in your deck than a basic staple.
Nadu reminds me of Oko, Thief of Crowns in that some minor tweaks to the card probably would have made it acceptable (e.g. like how Oko probably would have been fine if its starting loyalty wasn't so high). If you only had to target Nadu instead of "creatures you control have", if the card was limited to spells instead of spells and abilities, if it was a scry versus a draw, if the lands came into play tapped, etc.
What makes it so broken is Nadu could have all of those revisions and it would still be a good commander.
Oko doesn't live in the command zone and doesn't turn the game into solitaire.
If it didnt trigger off of opponents and your effects
Its really frustrating to kill nadu (and you will lose if you don't) and they just hit a land off the top that they use to protect nadu AND get another trigger.
oko’s problem isn’t the starting loyalty, it’s the speed he gains it. Oko needed to have the elk be a -1 or a 0 at most, and the food to be a +1. I play timeless and okos easily get to 11+ loyalty if you don’t have a clean answer to them.
@@surfinggarchomp2820
You're not wrong, but neither is op. If Oko started with 2 loyalty, elking an opponent's creature gives them a 3/3 that can one shot Oko.
Lower loyalty isn't as good as Oko elking being a -1, but it helps.
Oh Tomer don't be silly.... The Kaldra commander will just be the full assembled avatar on a legendary creature, you won't even need to run the pieces, it will even create tokens of them XD
The playgroup I was in at the time Brawl came out LOVED it.. Almost every game in between league pairings was Brawl instead of EDH for like two or three months. And then the first rotation time came up and every ounce of interest evaporated over night.
This was my experience too. Especially with those who don't play arena enough to earn gold/wildcards at a decent rate
Its crazy that on top of its incredibly pushed ability, it even has improved stats for its cost 💀
It would probably be still very viable is it cost 7 or something
I haven't played Magic in about 6 years. Back in the day, I played predominantly cEDH, but I stopped playing about a year after the "Fire" design philosophy started in the original Eldraine set.
And back then, I felt everything that you're saying in this video.
- Fire design causes rotation
- Wizards were getting greedier
- The new "reserve list" with Universes Beyond licensing
- The massively increased release schedule
- The impact of surprise power crept cards on casual games.
- The rules committee being far to passive with the banlist.
One of my most hated cards ever printed is Jeweled Lotus. That card sucks, so, much. In a casual game, if you have that in your opening hand, you just win. Watching people get their commander out 3 turns earlier than anyone else at the table, well before anyone else at the table was ready for it, just sucks.
And there have been more egregious cards since then.
Cards like Chulane was also just a mistake. Any card that ramps and draws carda at the same time just make the game way too easy.
And lastly, having only one card banned in the past 6 years give me no hope for the rules committee doing anything for the health of the format.
@@project_swift Chulane and Karvold single handedly made me quit for a year
@@project_swift To be fair, back in the day we had Oloro and Prossh as well. Food Chain and Eminence before there was Eminence were a pain to deal with, were busted cards in their own right, and they were such ridiculous engines, that many people were locked into either hating them out at tables, or losing to their value engines.
And now they've also announced that Duskmourn will be released on the 27th of September - just like 8 weeks from the release of Bloomburrow, so we will start getting previews and stuff for Duskmourn basically right after the release of Bloomburrow. Releases don't have any room to breathe anymore and as a player you don't have time to delve into the new cards and experiment, it's just previews after previews after previews and cards that are more and more optimized to be powerful. Oh, you are excited about a cool card you found for your deck in Bloomburrow, just you wait, next week we will announce three more cards that are even more powerful. Meanwhile the lore side is also getting less and less time and attention. They get good writers and then give them like two weeks to write two installments of the story that have to contain all of the events in the new set.
One thing I feel isn't mentioned nearly enough about the "this product just might not be for you" approach is... How tf do I know that before paying attention to it? This product might not be for me sure but if it is I would def like to know
I wouldnt even say older cards.
Commander legends cards from less than 5y ago are already taking a beating.
The issue I have with Nadu is just how awful it is to play and vs since the loops are non deterministic so you have to play through it all since they might whiff and not be able to win the game and it takes 20 years for the combo to go off
Wait... So you do not like watching forever-turns? Not even if I put in hundreds of game actions that have little impact on the game outcome? You must be crazy! The best thing about playing Magic is when you don't get to play magic!
@@goliathsteinbeisser3547yeah cause nexus was fun the first time
Its also TERRIBLE to watch on the pro tour. Today was just agonizingly boring.
It's bittersweet to hear you reach the same conclusion I reached about 3 years ago. It's that moment where you don't feel good saying, "I told you so..." because nobody wins.
Lol and yet
@@RG-wv3gt hence the "bittersweet"
I miss the days when EDH was a background format you played here and there.
I've had quite a lot of difficulty with commander. I build a lot of decks, like, a LOT. Mostly because I have the time to build, proxy, and cut(i'm doing it right now), but I find myself being drawn to not building things revolving around older cards, because I know they won't match up against the continually improving decks my opponents bring.
Video is 40 min long, was published 8 minutes ago, and people are already saying Tomer is wrong lol.
I'll wait til I finish the video before I decide if I agree with him or not.
EDIT: Surprise, I agree with Tomer. I usually do. It really sucks being that guy in my friend group that tries to keep the power-level down low when the awesome new cards come out because I feel like the fun police. No one wants to sit through someone else's fifteen minute turn every game, tho.
welcome to the internet. people are ridiculous.
Because he is wrong this card isn't designed for commander it was designed and put into a set specificity for modern.
@@NickAlsupif it was designed for modern than its a mistake for modern too because its homogenizing the format
Video still shorter than my opponents' average Nadu turn
They are probably bots or children. Don’t engage with them
'not all products are for you' How do I know which products are for me then??
@@reaperfoursixfiveoh9329 they are very aware this is BS, but it makes investors dismiss player complaint.
Kaldra Compleat is already the conclusion of your "Kaldra slippery slope" example. It exists.
Chulane should be part of the conversation too
Nadu does exactly what i was afraid chulane would do.
Did not expect the 40 minute teardown but go off king
I agree with Tomer that Commander was created with the mindset that it was supposed to be casual. That you could run ANYTHING, and you would be fine. The problem with the concept itself that I just recently learned from interviewing thousands of magic players is that there is nothing defining what a "casual deck" really is. Yes, we have the deck ranking system that has changed many times over the years. But again, that is always up to interpretation. Some would say "my deck is about a 5 or a 6. Very casual. Only 4 combos, and I run just a couple tutors to get to them. But it doesnt go off until like turn 7 or 8." And you would get others that would say "my deck is about a 6 or a very low seven. I run no combos, no tutors, very little ramp, and my win con is combat damage." These are just two examples of the differences on how people perceive what "casual" means. I feel, the best way to solve this, is to start assigning power points to cards themselves. It wouldnt be very painstaking at all. Most card databases like Moxfield and TappedOut already have this function, the number would just need to be assigned. Depending on the total points of your deck, it would indicate what power level your deck would be at. For example, anything combo related would be assigned a high value, as the more combos you add to a deck, the less and less of a "casual" deck you have. Same with tutors. This would take away any guesswork from the player who would say "I run a very casual Nadu deck".
This would be trickier than you might think.
Combos are the perfect example for this. I have no idea how many cards currently make a combo with kikijiki but i personaly just use it to recur etbs. So would that make him a high value card? Or does a combo have to be in the deck in full? The other side is that many other combo cards are subpar to straight up bad if used outside of combos so where would their value be?
All in all i think going with something like the canadian highlander system were only superpowered cards have a limiting value or, even better just seperating high and low power commander (not talking avout cedh, they got themselves worked out) including banlists and potential rulechanges (maybe allow low powered edh to use a sideboard for wish effects and lesson cards, or lower starting live to 30) to make the formats distinct, but essentially compatiple.
Rule 0
@@joshholmes1372 Rule 0 is only realy a thing if you have a semi fixxed playgroup. If your access to edh is lgs´s or online gaming you are effectively out of luck.
I hear you, but that tells people they aren't allowed to have a casual game if they like combos or have a potential combo card in the deck.
Casual, to me at least, is a mindset more than the decks being played
@@simplesandcastle1182 and i agree with that, but thats also exactly why its extremely hard to regulate outside of playgroups
As a yugioh player, I've noticed high amounts of powercreep doesn't really jive with more casual formats. In addition to having to keep up with buying new product, stronger cards just tend to have a higher skill floor in terms of playing them properly without the game just devolving into a steam roll. I can only imagine its worse in commander with it being a 4 player game and being able to run away with it if you're given a free turn just seems like an unhealthy dynamic.
While everyone seems to be playing their split second “cry about it” common card I’m floored about the numbers of people that have not experienced a tournament. Get out and come experience a new table!
you can play as a “competitive casual” player. Bring silly jank, bad junk, crazy five card combos or 40 counter spells (lol we have all done that).
Come visit a new kitten table.
Omo: I am a popular 3 mana simic commander from mh3 because my ability is interesting and cool. You are a popular 3 mana simic commander from mh3 because you are incredibly powerful. We are not the same
My land-ristocrats deck has been so inundated with hyper specific cards this year
What is the flavor of Nadu? Like what does it have those abilities?
I always wonder how Mark can be so confident about the ratio of kitchen table to event-going people. Like since a kitchen table person isn't likely to see a MTG poll in order to respond, how could he gather that data short of something fallible like querying if the same name on a credit card shows up at an FNM or something.
I mean, it is just statistically true. Most people dont care much for the formats or meta, they just buy a couple every now and again and play a couple games with their buddies, like a board game. It's honestly strange to me to see invested players needing such an indepth definition for what a casual player is. It's the same with literally every hobby: most people in a hobby are very casual, surface level enjoyers of it, because it's much easier and more accessible to do that than get seriously invested.
I myself have been playing magic since innistrad and yeah, I've never gone to a single event ever. Just playing with my friends here and there. I don't need all the official whatevers to have fun with a neat game.
I have never met one of those mythical table kitchen people.
Most players start at an LGS in my experience, and those players likely spend WAY more over time than casual players. It just makes sense to cater to invested players rather than just make everything a commander set.
@marshallscotif you have played a game of magic in the past and you wouldn't despise playing another game sometime in the future you're a casual player
@marshallscot Wotc has the stats to show like X amount of Millions of products are purchased per year, whereas X thousands of people sign up for sanctioned events.
The data is in the lack of data, if that makes sense. If they're selling all sorts of product but only seeing a small fraction of those buyers at events, it must mean that the majority are Casuals who don't attend events.
ever since they started printing multiple unset style cards with rulestext from unsets like the new jhoira I've really been turned off of buying new cards that should be silver bordered and double downed on my buying of $0.30 cards with massive downsides that are bad for your health and proxying. wotc and daddy hasbro really should appeal towards the audience and creating things that don't lead to an apocalyptic economic collapse.
The sad thing as well is that like- for a commander, the thing you're supposed to design your deck around, generic "draw more cards and play more lands" is just... boring? Like, they might as well be a card with no text at all other than "win more"
this is why pretty recently, my playgroup has started shifting back to how commander used to be where you just grab cards from your collection and play, not buying whole decks of tcg player etc, and it has been way more fun actually seeing cards you don't get to see every day
I would love to do this but I'd have to get atleast 3 others onboard and that's the hard part 😂
My friend cracked Nadu at draft and decided to make a deck using it not understanding why the rest of our group was dreading someone deciding to build it. Their "casual" build still regularly wins by turn 6 just due to overwhelming resources unless the table dogpiles the Nadu player or so(me)one is playing stax. There's also a lot of arms race play going on in my general area where people are running limited interaction having the mindset that "if I'm the problem the table needs to respond to me" instead. It's leading to every deck requiring the newest most busted cards, which is driving me to play things I don't enjoy just to have a game last more than 5 turns. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see that mindset as an issue, but me playing Lavinia stax as a response to it is "problematic."
The realization that Commander is basically Brawl both blew my mind and makes me never want to play a game of Commander again.
No brawl is the bullshit wizards did to commander
Build a commander cube (you can even just proxy it all so it’s cheap), so you don’t have to worry about artificial rotation
"Nadu is everything wrong with commander" I couldn't agree more with the title of the video.
Lol, right. These bait and switch videos...
How someone can defend what 99% of what everyone dislikes always baffles me.
@@klaiken989not 99%, maybe like 10% of people don’t like Nadu.
Most people actually really love Nadu because people like strong cards. Most people are casual and don’t care.
@@entertainmentinc9735 While I agree that its probably only like 10% of players who actively complain about the card, I also don't think that means the other 90% of players do like him. I think most people probably haven't fully decided yet, and it'll probably take a lot more people playing against it to see what the general opinion is. Players love strong cards, but a strong card has to both be strong and fun to play/play against to positively impact the format.
@@klaiken989this wasn't a defence of nadu though? This was pointing out nadu is a symptom of current commander design, and how that has changed over time. He never said nadu wasn't a poorly made card, hell he pointed out how it can be called a design mistake by the definition of some of the people at wizards. The title isn't a bait and switch, it's "nadu is a problem, here's how this has happened"
It's the curse of becoming the flagship format.
Love this kind of long form, well reasoned and passionate video essays about a particular subject! Keep it up!
no offense tomer but nadu was actually designed for modern. I don't think modern sets or any set that isn't commander specific should be worrying about how it's going to impact commander. The rules committee should just ban it if it's that big of a problem, THAT is the real issue, not the design team not policing their designs for a casual format
Commander is now MTG's entry point and there's no point in learning the other formats.
In YGO, it was a bluebird. Once again after a couple decades and moving to a new game it has followed me.
thumbnail is extremely funny in low definition
Stella Lee is a good example of this too. Mizzix of the Izmagus (my beloved) came out in C15 and has a bit over 4700 decks listed on EDHREC. Stella Lee, Wild Card came out with the release of outlaws of thunder junction commander and is about to overtake Mizzix, likely by the end of the week at time of writing this.
Hey Tomer?
I really like your solo content. Your involvement in general but these videos in particular are what brings me back to this channel time after time.
Thank you for putting yourself out there for us to see!
Only thing I disagree with is this card being legendary for commander reasons only - if this was not legendary it would be unbelievable
@@XadowXen cards now are thought for commander first and modern implications later. Yes, even in MH3.
Non notes, perfect summary.
The only way I brew Commander nowadays in casual is with self-restrictions to not do expected things or staple inclusions. If I want that high performance Drama I like cEDH, which is in a somewhat healthy state still, due to more busted interaction cards as well.
The year is 2026. Wizards releases a legendary creature that's 1 blue, 1 green, and one other. It draws the top 20 cards of your deck and puts all lands from your hand into play.
Nadu's a design mistake for myriad reasons. Frankly, I'm not convinced designers wanted it to trigger twice for each creature; several MH cards have "Creatures you control have [text]" that could have been worded so the ability is on the granting card; for example: Whenever a creature you control becomes the target of a spell or ability, do THING. This ability triggers only twice each turn. Is this what the designers wanted and someone from templating messed it up? Maybe.
"This ability triggers only N times per turn" is also a robust design mistake in itself; once per turn effects traditionally have been tap effects (you know, one of the central mechanics of the game) or upkeep, combat phase, etc. triggers. Zendikar Rising (?) introduced "The first time you gain life this turn, do X" which is, I think, the best templating for this kind of limited trigger mechanic. It's more elegant, less text, AND doesn't reset with blinking/bounce/etc. More than that, though, this is just lazy; it's like the designers didn't want to bother testing cards, or balancing them, so they just nerfed them in the most counter-intuitive way possible.
As for Nadu, though, the problem here is the Panharmonicon or KCI problem; it's a nondeterministic win condition; you can have 10 minute turns and not win the game; in 2 player formats this is bad; and in 4 player formats it's worse. Maybe the designers forgot about the myriad "Landfall - creature a creature" cards that exist, or forgot that Rampant Growth puts lands into play tapped for a reason... but these aren't exactly minor oversights.
In short; this is rife with problems that any editor or experienced magic designer could have caught at any number of stages in the design process, so either (a) they're all incompetent, or (b) they skipped the design phases expected to catch these obvious mistakes.
I wish we can go back 12 years ago to when sets were made for standard, with a few cards sprinkled in for eternal formats. It's what gave Magic crazy longevity and manageable power creep. Standard decks used to cost like $200 at most, I can't remember exactly. It was the format to get players in and teach them the mechanics because it was cheap comparatively to other formats. Also gave a use for the cards people would pick up from limited events. Now these shifted priorities for profit and an eternal format are just causing so many problems, especially LGS's and new players.
As someone that runs Magic events at an LGS, it can be a challenge mixing players of various skill levels for fair and interactive games. Especially without incorporating any biases that I may subconsciously or consciously have. I also hate that Wizards official stance on product fatigue is "Don't buy every set" It's crazy that a company's answer to complaints about product is "Don't buy our product". It's very dismissive of players that are actively trying to engage with your product / service.
I'd venture to say Nadu is everything wrong with card design in general
I left yugioh after 10 years, to instead play mtg EDH and occasionally pauper.
Yugioh power creep and the fact you can auto lose by not winning the die roll got very old.
EDH when i started in 2019 was definitely more casual than it is now. Games rarely ended before turn 8.
The issue is now you cannot buy a precon & play a game on the same level as most ppl that go to any lgs.
I love precons, low power decks and big ramp battlecruisers…but unfortunately with insane power creep, a do nothing rules committee, and a lack of self control in deck building, we end up with borderline cedh metas for what is supposed to be kitchen magic format.
Love the bird on his head 😂
Ive been thinking a lot recently about how you can solve the logical paradox of casual eternal magic.
I love brewing, i love weird drawbacks and build arounds. How do you create a format where staples arent everywhere? I have no idea.. one thing i was considering was a point system ljke Warhammer. But of course that adds a lot of complexity and the power of cards can be relative.
Regarding precons, they could literally be like 60 card precons with no new designs. This creates playable and powerful decks for new players without diluting jank pet cards. Of course the issue is sales
It’s so funny to me that I got the Desert Bloom precon, because a self-mill landfall deck sounded fun, has already had cards printed that I feel power creep cards that came in the precon. Rampant frogantua feels like it was meant for the desert deck but was slotted into Omo instead
One of the best commander videos ever.
When this card was spoiled, we all asked ourselves why the F would WOTC print this card. This is card is so good and it makes it awkward knowing that Prime Time is still banned when this card exists.
Melissa is hilarious!!!! The one Commander game I saw her play she was ramping and drawing like a maniac and quickly overran the whole table 😂😂😂😂
A lot of what is going on in MTG design is not for me. That started being true 5 years ago. But it seems like people at my lgs and online seem to enjoy it. I hope that is true across the community but I won't be around to see it. Happy for the masses but MTG isn't for me.
I wish Nadu was at least gruul or selesnya. It would make things way better for both edh and cedh
Nadu doesn’t really fit in MH3 limited. Blue/Green is Eldrazi and he puts cards into hand instead of drawing them for Blue. Pretty obvious it was intended for commander.
putting cards into hand is better than drawing, that's part of the power creep
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305they’re talking about limited. The Dimir archetype cares about drawing cards so it doesn’t work well with that. Not that all rares have to be designed for limited, but that’s what they are talking about
No, it was made for modern. And in that format, it's looking extremely powerful but also probably fine, creating new archetypes without destroying old ones, exactly what modern players wanted out of modern horizons.
Pretty obvious it was designed for Modern, hence the name of the set.
I mean he’s not the only one that doesn’t fit MH3 limited. Phlage, Kudo, Rosheen and Abstruse Appropriation don’t fit their respective archetypes either.
The latest sets have really bad flavor so as a vorthos player basically none of the new cards intrest me, MH3 is the first set in a while that at least feels like a real magic set and not a gimmick joke set, non-stop un-set vibes lately imo
Really enjoyed this video Tomer, and it articulates a similar feeling I've been having with commander. I could go on for hours about my feelings, but that's too much typing lol. Commander is still very fun and my favorite way to play magic, but it definitely has changed since I started playing
My local is having a pride commander night, so every legendary creature has partner. So imma run nadu and tatyova.
3 mana 3/4 with flying? I bet a playset of vanilla cards with those stats would cause problems on their own. Let's just give it card draw on etb or whenever it attacks. That still would have been good. Sheesh.
I'm kinda amazed that they haven't allowed *any* legendary to be your commander, yet. That would be some hilarious power creep, I'd be tossing Westvale Abbey into my command zone SO FAST. 🤣
BRING BACK THE OLD VIDEO TITLE "NADU IS EVERYTHING WRONG WITH COMMANDER"!!!!
On the more cards less brewing option. I came too a point that there is so many option that playing the 10th or 15th option for an archetype feel real cool while still being playable . I like prosper but i enjoy Doc Aurlock a lot more I feel UNIQUE ! I have to work for it. Wich is different than building an archetype from scratch but still feel great. Creativity is still present just in a different way.
I mean it wasn’t designed for commander was it, it’s just bad all around. To expand on this, commander should have virtually no impact on design for 60 card competitive formats, why would Wizards(or any competence entity) cut off fun design space in their maximally sanctioned competitive format in case of distinct interactions in a 4-player causal format. In particular this is exactly what the commander banlist is 4, when the designers decide to play around with simic at a modern, or in this case higher, power-level, just ban it from commander, job done - and if that isn't going to be the case oh well? Its a casual format that has basically every card legal - why is the design team responsible for how to police a format in which people don't play competitively optimal decks?
if you think Nadu wasn't designed to sell packs to EDH players I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
An easy way to stop power creep, is to stop with FOMO. Grow up. We’re adults. Who cares if you miss out on some cards. Also just stop these powerful cards. If WOTC sees its players stop playing with these powerful cards, then they will stop making them. All people do is complain about these cards, but they still end up playing with them. I refuse to play them. I may be the only player that does this. Us players have all the control but none of y’all are smart enough to figure it out. Just Stop
If the vast majority keep doing something wrong, then it’s a systemic issue not an individual one. We’re adults, we can recognize things are bad and holding people with the power accountable.