Leaning to the Edge: How Far is Too Far?
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- This week we talk about cornering traction. How far can you lean a motorcycle in a corner before your tires lose traction with the road? Is it the same fore cruisers and sportbikes? The information in this video may well ease your mind next time you are rounding a corner on your motorcycle.
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Thanks for watching,
Kevin
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A little off topic but I'm curious to your view ! Should I be pulling or pushing the handlebars in hard turns ? I have a tendency to pull the handlebars more than pushing on them
Kjjj
I'm riding a125grom. I'm learning. My bff is an EMT. Lesson I learn is just be one gear up from gear down. That way you'll putter through with no spin out. In a car I'll tail whip that mofo corner. Oh a bike. Nope!
Remember, kids, although the pavement may have .9 G's worth of grip, those wet painted lines can be slick as snot.
What about the road snakes ... they should add sand to the stuff.?.
Especially the cities that never sand blast the old lines prior to painting new ones. All those little divits in normal asphalt and concrete that Kevin was talking about get filled with paint and the street becomes a skid pan in the rain. Don't panic was great advice. Just let the bike do its thing, decrease your angle slowly and do not touch the brakes.
Amen!
@@caseykelso1 amen!
@burningfeet 53 Amen, really.
Traction enhancer, sounds a lot better than beer belly, thanks.
Large, loosely coupled ballast weight.
For some mysterious reason, my tire traction seems to be getting more enhanced as I get older.
Hahaha. Golden comment. Using this.
I was 5 years old when I started riding now I'm 40 and I think this is the most helpful channel out here. 35 years of riding and i still learn everyday. Have a great day and be safe!
a friend of mine told me that he started riding from 5.. I said to him that was child negligence.. :P other times I guess..
I’m the same and also raced motor cross but I believe it why I’m now learning why I do what I do besides it just works. Lol I’ve rode since I was 5 and now I’m 40 and new to the cruiser life but love it.
@@chrispap4766 my oldest started at 4, youngest at 3 without training wheels. They've broken more bones at recess at school than 12 years of mx...competing at a national level. So, to each his own.
@@jiismo why not let them fly an airplane also.. they have less accidents than other means of transport..
I like the Moto Man's channel, the police are the best riders out there. I would rather learn from the guy who teaches the police, they know more than this channel ever could. This MC Rider guy talks too much, all of his videos are him jabbering and just a tiny bit of field camera - no thanks. If this dude cannot ride and teach, forget it.
I laid my bike down (gently) going thru a corner and it felt like I lost my back tire. Since that happened, I think about that everytime I corner and go really slow thru turns. This knowledge is a buidling block of me gaining my confidence again. And the info on the rain as well
Same! Roundabouts are the worst because I just worry now!
@@DamionHD knowing it is all in your mind makes you think to much. Being able to take that corner in a normal way instead of flat 45degrees does not make you a bad rider. Just take your time.
@@DamionHD Roundabouts are dreadful, learned that the hard way at 35mph fully cranked over, I was being an idiot to be honest.
I just want to add one thing which has not been commented on the video; and it is the paint on the road, it makes the road more slippery, specially riding in rainy conditions. The paint on the road seriously affects the amount of traction left in a motorcycle.
Thanks Juan, good point.
Tar snakes, just as bad as paint. But that deviates from the "perfect conditions" of the discussion.
Just rained and got on the paint and before I knew it I was looking at ski! Never did that again
Drain and sewer covers are also very slippery when wet - but quite grippy when dry. Diesel fuel dropped by trucks on corners is also lethal, wet or dry.
@@colinsouthern The heat here in Florida also contributes to making paint, tar snakes even more slippery.
Great information. I think most people who crash in a cornering maneuver do so because they quit on the cornering because they don’t think they can lean the bike over any more for fear of lost traction, and run off through the outside part of the curve when they stand the bike back up from loss of confidence. You let everybody know that they can scrape the floorboards through the whole corner, and the tires have plenty of traction to maintain that lean angle.
The wiggle in the rear tire makes your butt hold the seat better. ;-)
LOL, it does for me too.
If you feel a wiggle in the rear while going straight, stop check tyre pressure, may have picked up a nail or something and tyre is going flat.
My seat has a hole in it ;)
You aren't kidding, Jestin. lol
yep, I rarely have that problem on my sporty, but when I do I thank the gods that I started out riding on dirt!
Great video, my dad always said most riders lose it in the curves by giving up.
As a new rider, this definitely gives me more confidence going through turns and maneuvers. The only other thing you didn't touch on is the temperature of the road/tires. Obviously heating up the tires before riding hard is always smart, but what if it's a cold night vs a hot sunny day?
Hi Kevin, I am a 61 yr old rider just getting back into riding for pure pleasure. I use to ride when I was in my mid to late twenties and just stopped to pursue street racing. Now that I am wiser and feel my mortality more, I had been concerned about leaning into a corner or just confidently counter steering. But since this video I 've had a more pleasurable and confident rides knowing that under "normal" circumstances the mechanics of traction won't fail me, Just my lack of skill, and I'm working on that. Thank you for all you do to help us RIDE safely, knowledgeable and skillful with practice.
I have a unhealthy fear of gravel, sand, oil spill, and farm spill.
That’s a healthy fear!
It really is
juliesfar that’s not unhealthy
Me too!
gone over a few times on gravel , going at a snails pace
53 years riding under my wheels now, re some of the comments on here, road tyres are high tech nowadays, they don't really need to be warmed up-but you as the rider do.
Lean angles are not really a target angle-you need to keep a bit in reserve in case she starts drifting or something requires you to take her over a few degrees more to tighten your line.
Trees drop sap, some of it is super sticky and like varnish when wet, some might still be on your sidewalls and not scrubbed off if you have been under trees.
The bike cops in UK have a saying if the bike gets a wriggle on- "fairy hands and feet" which means chill out and don't yank/stamp on any controls.Fear of loss of traction is usually greater than the reality.
In the wet, you often notice a "dry line" in the road centre where cars have dispersed the water.Years back, that was to be avoided as cars dropped oil, but now, its reckoned ok to ride that band.
Gas stations/truck stops should be watched-drivers can move off without replacing the filler cap and puke diesel over the road (common problem over here in France). Safe roads and stay shiny side up folks.
As far as tires not needing to warm up, I disagree. If you try to quick-flick into a turn on cold tires you WILL tuck under. If you drive out on a cold tire you will spool up and likely lowside.
@@freeknet2000 in what scenario would you "quick flick" a road bike after just leaving the garage? I said the rider needs to warm up-thus 20minutes or so of settling in on the bike and adjusting brain to the days riding conditions- time of day and weather. etc. On a track day, fair enough, tyre warmers or warm up laps. The road surface you think you know like the back of your hand may have a coating of dust/gravel/fuel today, hot tyres won't make any difference. Good roads and weather to you sir and home safe every ride.
Very informative and clear. Also narrated at a perfect speed, not too fast and never too slow. Continue to help us ride safe. Thanks.
Thanks Roger.
Very true! It seems like everyone on RUclips just tries to put in as many words per minute as possible with jump cuts. Much prefer this natural speed of talking.
Roger Rondeau: amen to that! My brain needs a slower speed so it can really digest and process what's being said. He has it spot on.
@@MCrider i just started riding after 25 years i went from a yamaha 650 special to a yamaha vstar 1100 your videos help reenforce a lot of things you forget thanks
I have been riding for 30 years, I recently found your channel and find myself watching to remind or ensure I have not picked up in bad habits , I think these are great refreshers for those of us who have been riding , and awesome for newer riders Thanks for sharing
any accidents?
Thanks Kevin.....I'm a returning rider after a 7 or 8 years off the bikes and watching your videos makes me feel a lot safer due to the knowledge you share, it gives me the right mindset and reminds me that staying alert and aware of what I am thinking while I'm on the bike will keep me as safe as possible and give me the best chance possible of not only getting maximum enjoyment of my riding time but get me and my bike home to my wife and kids in one piece. Much appreciated 😎
Scott 77 same here...
I totally agree with you. Its great when you realize that there are more people whose minds "work" like yours :-)
Scott 77 same to me returning on motorcycle after ten years. Then it was a 1993 yamaha virago 535 cc, now it is a 1984 honda v65 magna. This dude´s channel very useful.
I came back to riding about 3 years ago after a lul of about 35 years! Decided it was time to ride again after a bad accident when I was 19. Took the local motorcycle course (even tho I still had my mc licence) to brush up and feel comfortable again...it helped a lot. All the other guys/kids in the course couldn't understand WHY I would spend 300.00 to take the course if I didn't need to..lol. They'll understand one day.
Now..I keep updated on good technique by watching channels like this one and learning a few things I never knew and was never taught. AND hitting an empty parking lot once a week for 15 minutes to practice some sloooooow speed maneuvers and hard braking. Just started using different types of lane positioning for better visibility last year after seeing it talked about on one of these channels. Good way to stay visible and stay alive. A lot of this stuff just isn't taught in mc courses.
Enjoying having a bike again. And love the fact that I am MUCH more knowledgeable and safer than I was. All thanks to videos like these.
I'm like you SJ. I had a break of 32 years and just came back to riding 8 months ago. I took two private 1-2-1 lessons of 3-4 hours each, plus I took a Police Riding Course (Wiltshire Motorcycle Police, England). Slowly beginning to get my confidence back - instructional videos like MCRider really help too. Ride safe buddy.
I really appreciate this channel. As an experienced performance car driver but inexperienced motorcyclist it is great to hear the explanations. Cars don't have lean angles (per se) so this type of info is helping me have confidence on my 2 wheeled machine. I understand recovery methods in cars but much less so on a motorcycle. Getting comfortable that I am not going in the ditch immediately is confidence building! Thanks for the channel!
it's all about tires.... some say sticky tires are just for carving and aggressive riding but don't forget those moments you need really lean to avoid a sudden obstacle or emergency panic stops that any bike will likely encounter sticky tires will cut you stopping distance in half before locking up wheels! throw those hard tires away and get some softies!
if your gonna splurge on something make it the one thing connecting you to the street!
I agree 100%. I like Michelin Pilot Roads myself, 3s or 4s, depending on what's available for my bikes.
Absolutely. I put Dunlop Sportmax Q3s on my CBR1100. The bike is capable of more than I am as a rider. I'd rather buy tires more frequently than pay hospital bills.
This man tried his best to explain about traction and he did it thoroughly in my opinion. Why did u dislike? Just leave the video. No need to ruin a man's work he did for your help.
I've been riding for several years. I ride a 2016 Road Glide Ultra and a 2009 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 Custom. I've never had any motorcycle training and I've logged thousands of miles, but I gain so much information through your channel. Keep up the awesome work! Your content has got to be helping thousands!
First off Mr Kevin thank you for all of your helpful videos. I'm going to watch all of them lol as I get the chance to do so.
Ok now my question can you please try to help me understand why I feel so positive and strong when I make right turns
I slide off my seat with much comfort and I can rip through the turn and feel great about it etc.......
But when it comes to making a left turn I have a day and night different attitude and style and not nearly as confident I hope that you can help please let me know. Thanks oh and anyone on this please share thanks oh and I ride a old school 2004 zx7r thanks again.
He is absolutely right. As a riding instructor we always tell students that as beginners they need to understand that the bike can always do more than them and to learn to trust the bike and lean it over more if they need to. Even in the rain I've scraped the pegs on a Vstrom 1000 adventure bike. The key is always approaching a corner according to the conditions and their skill level, always erring on the cautious side. A good street rider never enters a corner too fast where they can't tighten up to the inside if something surprises them mid corner.
Back in the eighties, my friend and I had a couple of ratty 125s. We took them to a supermarket car park on a Sunday when it was closed. It had been raining steadily and was cold. We rode round in ever decreasing circles and wide arcs at speed to push the bikes so as to feel how much liberty we could take in the wet. We spent ages there until the cops came and moved us on but it taught the both of us how it felt when we were getting near the edge of traction. Neither of us dropped the bikes and I learnt a good lesson in a relatively safe controlled environment. I think a lot of people avoid wet riding and never build up the confidence. Getting plenty wet seat time I reckon is bound to be useful. It rains a lot Kevin in the UK compared to DFW!
chris pomphrett I did a similar thing in highschool with my car on snow. I didn't realize what I was doing at the time, I was just being stupid and having fun but drifting around corners and doing power slides actually taught me a LOT about vehicle limits on snow/ice and I'm a million times more comfortable because of it
Good one!, I reckon everyone should do a bit of time on a skid pan, or off road or better still, using someone else's vehicle!
chris pomphrett z
Good story and I completely agree and did what you did with my 83 Mustang GT when I was in High School. My buddy (who had an 84 Camaro) and I used to go to the back parking lot of a K-Mart, which had the garden section out back and watered every night, to play. We'd do 180's hitting the e-brake, down shifting into 2nd and coming around perfectly without hitting a light pole. haha We'd out do each other in most 36o's in a row, J-turns, having fun. Today I'm 50 years old and I have never wrecked a car of mine (all but one having V-8's) and I never panic when the rear slips. Best experience for driving in my life and pays off. I ride a K3 GSXR600 have never laid my bike down either...knock on wood. I'd recommend teaching your kids this fun and safe way to experience sliding, drifting and spinning their wheels. Hats off to you
I haven't riden for 2 decades and I appreciate these videos. My mind plays tricks on me when I'm riding, like the bumps when cornering, and it's reassuring to know these facts. Thanks Kevin.
This guy should be the patron saint of motorcycle riders.
He is
One of my biggest repairs is replacing seat covers from sphincter contractions in high speed curves. Thanks for a great video!
Omfg XD
You have no traction on wet painted markings or metal coverings. Couple these with acceleration, braking or aggressiveness and you will go down.
Thank you my friend, For some reason after riding a Harley Davidson for 25 years I have lost my nerve when cornering, your video helped out a lot. Thank you
I'm an older guy and have only been riding for three years. I have a Honda Shadow that rides pretty low, but I still get scared when I scrape the pegs. I have a lot to learn and this video is very helpful. Thank you.
Gary Horn... When you pegs or footboards scrape the road it’s the motorcycle telling you you are now out of lean angle. It’s nothing to fear, in fact, police/civilian slow riding schools, we are told it should be music to our ears. I highly recommend that you look into a Ride Like A Pro school near you. You will learn a civilianized version of police training (not nearly as tight). You’ll be amazed at how much better your skills will become in your confidence will grow by training at 5 to 10 mph. Be encouraged.
You can go harder to the right then the left or the center stand will jack the rear off the road, if you are very lucky it will not end up a very bad day!
Keith Otto
That assumes your motor has a center stand. Harleys don’t, so, Kevin is correct on the 34 degree lean angle both ways on his (and my) Road King.
Only scrape the pegs at night. The sparks are wasted in the daytime.
I've ground the pins off the bottom of my foot pegs due to hard leans,
( I have a 2002 Honda Shadow Spirit DC ).
Excellent video. As a Physics teacher I often cringe when people try to explain the "physics" of how things work. Not so for this video. However, i cannot resist getting into teacher mode & pointing out two minor errors. "1 to 1.1 g's" is not force, but acceleration. You should say 1 to 1.1 g's of lateral acceleration. However, lateral force is proportional to lateral acceleration as well as to the mass of the motorcycle. Consequently, it would be correct to say "1 to 1.1 times the weight of the motorcycle plus rider of lateral force". Secondly, the "interlock" between tire & road which helps to create friction is mostly at the microscopic level. Hence, even pavement or other surfaces that feel perfectly smooth can generate a lot of traction.
Excellent explanation. Thank you very much for offering such an interesting point of view. I am a marine engineer and love to hear the opinions of people who own knowledge about a subject. Kevin's videos are simply great, I have learned a lot, and the comments of people who watch them are half the reason why I subcribed.
MCRider still makes the best instructional videos. Keep at it!
I've always learned that so much depends on keeping a smooth application of throttle to keep weight on that back tyre to maintain optimal grip (as you say: no brakes of chopping) and that even when there's a slight slide, you still have a decent margin of traction.
They may be able to generate a lot of traction, but not as much. My local race track, Lime Rock, is unsafe for motorcycles because of the worn-out (i.e. smooth) tarmac. If the increase in contact area played a subordinate role in creating friction, we would not need textured grips on anything - like your throttle.
Mattias, The coefficient of friction depends on the materials in contact. Many roads that are worn smooth have had the high traction rock/gravel pressed down into the surface exposing the much lower traction oil based asphalt binder. Pure asphalt, especially when heated by the sun, is slick as snot.
And not a day after I wrote that, I slide out of a corner. First crash...
This just confirmed what I thought. I'm new to riding, but I've been really focusing on learning to corner better. And I was able to realize I could lean more and more, and even on my last ride I finally was thrilled by a turn. It was exhilarating. This will just boost my confidence even more, because I know my Kawasaki 500r still has some angle to give.
One of the few channels that always has good advice. Most bikes start dragging things before they run out of traction, even sportbikes. Just look at the pegs and fairings of stock class racebikes and you'll see what they drag. The most important thing is to keep good tires on your bike. Modern tires are incredible, and top tier tires are usually way better than most riders are capable of using. Ride safe!
Awesome info. It’s one of those questions every rider has pondered.
I dumped my bike today on my way to work, was going around 20-25mph around a turn in my neighborhood, got too much angle and it slid as I was sliding next to it. Bent the handle bar and broke the mirror off on the left hand side, got parts and fixed it already. But I’m still trying to figure out what made me lose traction like that.
Cold tires maybe? Less grip. Should never lean until you've been riding at least 30 mins..and no hard leans for an hour
Just yesterday I was riding at possibly less-than-legal speeds and I came up to a turn, I wasn't really thinking of what I was doing and I just started turning subconsciously. About midway through the corner I started drifting out wide, really wide. I got right on the white line and I felt my rear tire losing traction big time. It started to buck me around a little as the rear tire lost traction. I remembered to look ahead luckily, and I rode it out. It really reminded me that you can have all the knowledge of how to ride a motorcycle in your head, but if you haven't committed that knowledge to muscle memory then it means next to nothing out there on the road. I could have avoided the whole situation if I would have countersteered and not rode outside of my limits. I guess I have some practice to do haha, and maybe slow it down a bit.
Gavin Kerber ..”I wasn’t really thinking of what I was doing”...yes, knowledge is essential, and muscle memory is incredibly helpful, but respectfully I would suggest that concentration is the most important of all.
I'm glad it worked out for you. I really wish fellow bikers would slow down. Every time I hear of a fellow biker being injured or killed, it hurts me personally. Be safe Gavin... don't want to read about you in the paper.
Thanks guys, I've ridden dirt for years but the pavement is a totally different ball park. I've got a lot to learn haha. And yea I'd agree with you there Ronan, it was almost like I suddenly lost all the knowledge I had about how to turn a bike and all I could think was "boy sure would suck if I dumped this brand new bike."
look where u want to go and to stop the bucking you can throttle out
Thanks for the advice D man, I got the looking ahead part down. It's just the surface is totally new to me haha.
Useful learning points for riders everywhere, not just USA cruisers. I ride a sports bike and this supports use of counter steering and shifting weight to keep the lean angle in bends below 45 degrees.
I got over my head/skill level in a curve once but I didn't panic, I just remembered what one of my MSF instructor told me " when in doubt lean and ride it out" and that is what I did riding what my friends call "riding the razor edge". My hubby was riding behind me watching and thinking I did it on purpose telling himself he needed to have a talk with me hahaha. When he showed me the line on my tire of where I leaned I was shocked I didn't low side...as fun as that was I won't be doing that again lol!
SJMudTurtle Cruises Similar thing happened to me after about a year of riding. I got overly confident in my cornering abilities and went into a corner on my sport bike way too fast. I thought I'm going to crash, but all of a sudden my MSF instructor's voice popped into my head. Funny how that happens. I heard him say if I'm headed into a corner too fast just stay off the brakes, lean into the corner and stay on the throttle and 9 times out of 10 you'll be ok. I came out of the corner just fine that day and I learned a valuable lesson to ride within my limits. Those MSF courses really do save lives. Glad you didn't wreck. Ride safe. Summer.
Indeed, the time to be worrying about things like that is generally before you get into the curve. Once you're in the curve, it's a lot easier to cause a crash than it is to avoid one. Especially for beginners.
The fortunate thing is that with modern motorcycles, the bike itself is usually better than the rider, so you're more likely to be the thing that causes the actual crash in that situation than the bike itself.
Chris L the one thing hubby drilled in my head (he's been riding for 40+ yrs ) is never panic. If you get over your head stay calm and let what you learned and practice kick in.
SJMudTurtle Cruises I think we’ve all been there. I remember being told that low side is always better than high side, if you’re gonna crash better to slip under than to outrun your road. At least with a low side you have a chance to make it through the turn. LOOK FURTHER, LEAN MORE, AND PULL HARDER.
SJMudTurtle Cruises
Don't know what you're riding lady but if its a sportsbike there should be no 'line' on that tyre, the rubber outside those lines are called 'chicken strips' and you need them off because when it comes to that bend you didn't anticipate correctly and you have to lean further than you normally would traction goes all to fk as you're riding on a bit of brand new rubber you didn't ever bed in, so either sand those chicken strips off or ride em off by going progressively lower as you corner. If you're on a cruiser forget it, you'll grind the footpegs away long before you get rid of those strips.
I recently bought a BMW K1600 GTL, she is a giant beast! I was intimidated by the power, size, & the bits of leftover sand/gravel on the tarmac from the winter. I fear caused me to forget the “looking though the corner” skill & my cornering & confidence suffered greatly. A couple days ago I remembered to look through the corners & the sun came out! What a difference. The bike is amazing, I’m trying to catch up with her:-)
Oh! Thanks for the video, I needed that
Good stuff, Kevin. You mentioned in this traction video that when it starts to rain that traction is likely reduced due to all of the oil, gunk and other stuff floating up out of the pavement, and that it's a good idea to wait (Time for a coffee break?) for 15 minutes or so for all that stuff to get flushed away. One morning, however, I saw a rider take a spill when he encountered a situation that I've never heard discussed before.
I was in Cincinnati, Ohio one day during a thunderstorm. There's a street that actually passes underneath the pedestrian plaza of Great American Ball Park. The rain, of course, never reached that part of the street beneath the stadium, but all of the vehicle traffic tracked the rainwater from the part of the street that was outdoors on to the "sheltered" pavement. There are parking garage entrances off of that part of the street, and a car made a quick left to enter the parking garage at that point. A guy on a dual sport bike was behind the left-turning car and was surprised by the sudden maneuver, and attempted to brake heavily. His front wheel slid out, and he was dumped in the traffic lane, nearly sliding under the rear of the turning car. It was a pretty low speed crash, and the rider immediately was up on his feet, got the bike up off of ground, and was on his way again, so it didn't appear that anything was hurt except his pride.
The lesson I took from witnessing this is, during heavy rain, be careful if your path takes you under sheltered areas during rain. Places that come to mind are freeway overpasses, tunnels, parking garages, gas station canopies, etc. While all of the slippery stuff may be washed away by the rain on the road that is open to the sky, it won't have a chance to be washed away in sheltered areas.
Out of all the instructors I have viewed on RUclips, I like you the most because you are persistent in what you're saying. You're more knowledgeable about the topic. I was hesitant about leaning going around corners and curves, but after watching this video, I feel better about that. The reason I said that was because, a year ago I had a bad motorcycle accident and it tore up my left side of my body. I am more cautious now and have slowed down a lot, but still have that hesitation about going very fast. I now ride around 50-60 mph. Please continue to make your videos because they are very informative and powerful. Thanks!
Thanks Kevin for this (and all the videos you make). Without even getting on a bike yet, I feel just watching your videos has already made me a better rider.
heya, im watching heaps of these vids too.. dont even have the money for a bike yet xD .. cant wait
It has.
I ride a FLHRI, and I swear if the conditions are good, it will not slip. I watch videos of people going off corners into the soft stuff, hitting guardrails, hitting other vehicles, and I think to myself "he/she just thought they couldn't push any further". If they realized that they could have leaned a lot further, they wouldn't have wrecked. I wish all riders knew the true limitations of their bike. I think motorcycle mishaps would drop over 50%. Thank you for this excellent instruction Sensei.
This is THE most valuable video I’ve ever seen on this subject!
You have a new Subscriber!
I'm the guy Kevin warns you about in other vids. I'm 54 and just decided to start riding last year. I took a riding safety class at local college on the 250cc bikes and went out and bought a new Harley Heritage softail classic. I put 1200 miles on it last summer in Michigan, but of course have to stop riding in winter here and just now getting back to riding it. Reviewing all the videos Kevin has out there is nice to remind me of things I've forgotten over the winter. I'm signing up for the basic rider 2 class in June to learn other techniques to make riding more enjoyable. Last year I took a turn and felt scraping of foot pads and thought I was going down. Now I read how guys do that regularly on here. Not my comfort level to do that regularly. Thanks for all the tips and education Kevin.
Another good video! Thanks! I'm old and slow, but it's good to know that I have more traction on my tires than I'm libel to use, as long as I stay off the brakes in a curve.
You can brake in a curve but you need to feather them, no grabbing handfuls just very easy light braking to drag you down a couple of MPH, I'm old too but ride very fast mostly with 44 years of twisties under my belt, I don't do highways just country roads.
I had a back tire skip on a corner with a Honda Magna. I have never forgotten that experience, even 25 years later. It may only have been a light sand on the pavement, but I've slowed for the sharp ones ever since.
In the 16 months since I returned to riding motorcycles -- a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000, quite a jump from the 49cc Vespa I had at the time! -- I am soooooooooo glad I found your channel! You help me every week, and you tell me almost as much about my cruiser as I learn from the (also quite good) Vulcan Forum I'm on. Thanks, Kevin! (And I'm a Patreon supporter...)
Thank you for the support Victor!
Link your Vulcan forum, please! New rider and need all the tips I can get.
Victor Hawkins , hey Victor . I sold mine awhile back , a 2006 VN2000 switchblade windshield , Vance Hines power shots 'shorts' , and eventually I put a Michelin hydro edge on the rear as 5000 miles max on a rear tire was a pain. Have you found out the top end on your bike yet ? LOL ! Not sure if you have a classic or the VN or if they are the same but I'd suspect they are . Last I knew for a production V twin stock it holds the speed record at the 'flats' . Also that was low at around 130 mph . Let me tell you a secret . . . .=-) . As you said you are a nubie and not familiar with the bike yet so I don't recommend you do this. I've been riding since I was six and now old enough to know better . . .well over 55 . . . . Yeah a speed limit dig . Anyway your bike if like mine and a buddy's ( both bought same time same dealer just different paint ) both would do the same thing. If run to limiter through the gears they will only do about 134 mph . However if you are in high gear and roll the throttle they will run the speedo out of numbers every time . We'd usually let off at 150 - 155 mph to not damage the speedo . One night me and an Audi R8 got playing he was behind me and didn't want to pass and had come up on meat night and I was running 100 at the time going home after night shift . I'd seen him as I went through an intersection a few miles back and he'd flashed his lights . I'd just left a gas station after topping the tank . Like I say he came up behind me but was civil . We ran a while like that and when the road and lack of side roads allowed I rolled it on . Sitting up without windshield on . At 150 he was still there ( On GPS also ) so I did something I rarely ever do and only did the one time on this bike . I got flat on the tank and put it on the stops . He stayed until around 155 mph probably limited ? I never let off figuring it was a good time to break the speedo . The speedo was about a third into the odometer and my GPS had prior to this exceeded the Velcro holding it . Guessing , I'd say around 170 - 175 ? The speedo was accurate as I'd made sure the actual diameter of the tire corrected it when I put the speed rated tire on the rear. Now you know so you don't have to find out . I was running beside a Buel at 142 mph sitting straight up and he was all flat could have left him sitting as he didn't have anymore but he thought he was winning and luckily I backed off as we were approaching a box van at speed as soon as I did he cut left and passed the van almost hitting a semi head on in a 'blind' pass . He didn't know I was there . . . . So ,ride safe not stupid like me . I no longer ride as my back doesn't allow it , I even sold my 2008 GL1800 full dressed Goldwing with a trike kit for the same reason. Enjoy it and ride safe it's the best bike I've ever owned . Had two problems . . . . the speedo quit while still new , warranty replaced it . After that the dealership was the problem . Bike would misfire at high-speed and kept getting worse . They replaced the TPS ( Complete throttle body ) then when that didn't fix it they replaced the computer still didn't fix it . Finally a factory trained 'Spider specialist' being trained on electrical problems took a look at it as he was there fixing Spider warranty electrical issues . Found the main wiring harness was bad all while still under warranty . That fixed the problem . I sold the bike with 187,000 miles on it and it still ran great and a leak down showed no loss of compression . My buddy who bought the same bike at the same time has yet to break 10,000 I sold mine four years ago . . . . I rode it every day 100 miles round trip to work plus the wife and I would do any bike event we could in Florida . I couldn't stand to let it just sit and my back is so bad I didn't want to risk a wheel chair . It still ran great as I'd start it and run it to keep things lubed . One more thing I changed oil every 2000 miles and if you change your own oil . The small drain on the left is prone to strip out ! It drains the wet clutch case , there also are three drain plugs for the oil . OK , enough book . I have a shop manual and a rear seat off the 'Custom' 2000 the wife rode on instead of the 'bitchpad' the VN came with a direct fit reasonable upgrade . Be well , and ride safe .
Jared Lozano , don't ride alone if you can help it ! Size or numbers does matter as well as noise also not that it is true but look at every cage as though the driver has a grudge against you . Also if they do something wrong and get you busted up odds are the court will rule in their favor . Just so you know . Be well , ride safe .
Just bought my wife her first bike a week ago. We both appreciate the information shared in these videos. Thank you.
Your explanation of the physics is good and concise but you make a major error when discussing performance in the wet. Road tyres are designed to run hot; this why sport riders warm up their tyres. It gives the best compromise between grip and longevity. But and its a big but, riding in the wet effectively prevents tyres from reaching optimal temperature. They're being water cooled. This is the main reason for rear wheel washout in the wet. While the road surface coefficient of friction may be only marginally reduced as you say, the tyres cof is drastically so. This can mislead the driver into over committing and crashing.
Aggressive cornering should never be attempted in the wet. I know you see racers doing this but wet surface race tyres are very soft and designed to run cold. Different altogether from road tyres.
Point to be noted! Totally agree!
Also, the coefficient between a tyre and asphalt may still be good in the wet, but the same can't be said for white lines, manhole covers, polymer repaired pavement (tar snakes), and other general debris you might find on the road.
Further, static friction might be good between a tyre and road, but dynamic friction is lower. So, when the tyre starts to slip, it's more likely to keep slipping.
didnt even think about tires being colled off by wet road,thanks for sharing
Welcome!
How much sport bike rider and I always used to write soft compound tires you're well. I recently got a new bike and I'm riding hard tires for the first time. I will definitely keep this in mind.
OMG... been asking this question for like 20 years.
All I ever get from the guys that I ride with, that seem to hit corners way faster than me is..."You just need more practice". Yeah, they are right. But they can never really tell me how much lean angle on a 30 MPH corner I can actually do without stressing out. When I'm riding behind my buds, I see them hit 30 MPH corners at 50 MPH and they always look super super smooth... but when I think about it, while they "appear" to be leaning wayyyy over, they honestly never get much beyond about 35 degrees.
With this video, now I know that even tho my R1200RT can probably hit a 45 degree angle, I will NEVER have the balls to get remotely close to that. BUT... I can also lean over wayyyyy farther than I have been without scaring the boo boo out of me.
Thanks Mr. MC.
Body position. Your upper BODY should be moved to the inside of the corner, so the bike can stay upright as much as possible. That's the whole point. Less lean is less risk and more upright suspension; able to do its job.
Hate that gravel that hangs around curves after a NJ winter. Definitely go easy on the roll on when it’s underfoot. Gratefully by May its mostly been cleaned up.
Frank Latorraca Not to mention the debris. Northern NJ has so much damn roadwork going on.
Doesn't even matter what tyres you have everything will slip on that stuff
Yep! I was just out yesterday (I live in Wayne) and ya gotta go easy on those turns. It's all about keeping one's speed under control . . .
In Michigan the curves get a fresh covering with sand every time it rains in the summer even
Frank Latorraca , wet leaves in the Fall are a bundle of joy too ! ! ;-)
Came back to riding during my mid life crisis after a 35 year break. Took refresher lessons to built myself back up in confidance and skill to come back safe on the road. Found this channel and have been watching it to pick up some great riding tips. I love going out on my bike and putting into practice all the tips you re giving. Keep up the good work and I honestly beleive by hosting this channel and and sharing your knowlage there must be people out their riding safely today that may otherwise might have had a nasty accident or even killed. Thank you.
I am in Australia and I love your vids, your advice has certainly helped in enhancing my riding skills.
Thanks Kev, a new (55 years old!) motorcyclist from Southern UK here. A very interesting and fresh description on this, I’ll be checking out your other vids to learn from you.
🙏🙏👍
Kevin I didn't hear anything about temperature. I believe traction is better in warmer conditions where more heat between the rubber and the road helps. As Temps drop and rubber and roads cool, this causes the rubber to be more rigid/less flexible to grab the road. Of course super soft tires will still have better grab, but in general, all bike rubber looses traction as a function of temperature decline. That's why winter tires for cars are made of a softer rubber which can provide grip in the colder temperatures. Up here in the north where we have real winter, spring and fall temperature riding conditions with colder roads and rubber require additional caution for traction and not only for leaning but for braking distances without sliding as well. Thanks for the great video another important subject. This is my two cents worth
Good point Mike!
He said very clearly "soft rubber has more traction than hard rubber"
There's your temperature lecture right there.
Larry House
Hi Larry,. Soft rubber in not related to temperature but composition. Even the softest rubber compound will loose friction as temps drop.
I second that. Soft sport oriented tires are notoriously more slippery when cold as compared to harder touring tires. So there is a little more to it than the general softness of the rubber. The video, I believe assumes warmed up equipment in steady state conditions.
I notice that when watching NASCAR races they always say that they lose grip when the temperature is really hot. Leads me to believe there is a temperature curve where really cold and really hot asphalt are both more slick.
Good way of explaining it. I always have been told and tell people tires will hold all the way until the crash bar or something that wont give drags
Hi. I ride in the uk, so Im used to riding in the rain. The fun bit is when your front, or rear wheel hits a manhole cover in the bend. Then you sure do loose traction and the bike skips sideways. But say cool, dont adjust, or grab anything, you will be of that cover in half a second and watch the bike correct itself. Have confidence in your bike and keep your tyres in good condition.
Missed a sign.....Last year I was tooling around a large lake and was well looking at gods creation and not mans road....hit a 20-30 mphr corner at 50-60 mph. Not sure actual speeds, because I looking at the lake trough the trees, but too fast for a non-sport bike rider who wasn't expecting a sharp turn. Figured either way its gonna suck if it all goes wrong, but the ditch was not the best place to end up and it was better to take chances on the bike being better then me..I kept the throttle going and looked, leaned, pressed and rolled through the turn..well all the shinny parts were still shinny at the end. Need to change underwear and added that to my list of almost died when.. Moral of the story....if god doesn't kill yeah man will.
We are glad your shins survived 😀
I grew up riding dirt bikes with training wheels since I was 2 years old. I just started riding on the streets probably a month and a half ago and just this week started riding daily for fun and to get to and from work appointments. I got my learners permit and am about ready to take the road test thanks to watching your videos, going out and implementing the things you talk about and testing my skills. Riding since a young age has definitely helped but a dirt bike and a Harley are two very different bikes. Your videos have helped me a lot in the past month or so. These videos are gold Kevin. Thank you I truly respect what you do for me and all the others who are new to riding. I learned on a BMW 1150 GS which is very tall for me (even tho I’m 6’5”) and I have to tip toe quite a bit. I’ve dropped the bike 3 times when sitting still, I watched your video in dripping bikes and it clicked with me very well. I recently transferred to a custom classic 1982 Harley that sits lower, is loud as hell, but weighs 200 pounds more, I’m way more comfort on the Harley than the bmw but I still try to ride both every day for at least an hour each. Lucky enough to live in Miami where most of the time it’s warm and sunny.
Great video yet again, Kevin!! I was surprised about the wet surface info for sure. Thanks for the info
3 years ago took the motorcycle riding safety course on a HD Street 500. rained both days we did the riding skills course and on the day of the final test. the tires were amazing and never once did traction become an issue. the main issue was keeping up the speed on the bike in the turns. instructor had a good comment - trust the bike, look through the turn, and maintain your speed, but most of all, trust the bike, it does not want to go down and neither do you.
Great video. I like the rain and lightning effects! :) Thanks for what you do.
I'm getting a used 125 cc motorbike soon and this is the best channel for beginners, i've been looking at as many videos about safety and this channel is the best for these types of videos!
Thanks I appreciate it.
"Tar Snakes" take away all my confidence. Even for that split second. I HATE THEM
Your riding too rigid I take snakes even without holding the bars, if you fight it you will fall, let the bike do the work! Not your arms!
@@aaronratliff9576 exactly, also different tire brands on certain bikes react differently to tar snakes. for me I have found Avon or Pirelli seem to handle lines and snakes
On a cold winter morning 3 years ago, I was on my way to the local garage asking myself whether I change only the front or both tires, both were not very used but more than 6 years old. In a slow corner at about 20mph, I lost the rear. I stopped and looked for sewer cover or grease or anything, but the pavement was clean and even. So I changed both tires from Macadam100x to Pilot road 4. What an improvement. My advice is : when tires are more than 5 years, change them.
The only time I get worried about losing traction is when I go over tar snakes. On a hot day when I hit one in a corner and it feels like the front wheel slides out just a hair my stomach drops every time.
You can say that again! I carry Tums to settle my stomach due to those critters, LOL! Arizona is full of tar snakes, nice and hot and slippery. They can ruin your line in a curve real quick, as I have discovered.
ruhl1337
How wide the tar snakes?
Less than 2" won't cause the bike to fall (assuming you have a little something in reserve as you should on public roads).
Be wary but don't let them scare you stiff otherwise you might create a situation far more dangerous than the little step out they cause if you just ride through them.
How bout a grooved drawbridge. Crap my pants every time
@@stevegraw Same here in Florida. Paint and tar snakes heat up and become much more slippery. Do my best to avoid that stuff especially when cornering.
I hit some tar snakes in 111° weather southern AZ. It did feel as if I could lose it. Slowed me down a lot. I wasn't riding hard to be again with. 25mph corner I was pulling it at 30+/-. Once it stepped out I was pulling them at 20+/-. Something to watch for in hot weather for sure.
The surface is the most important information we can pay attention to because most people know what kind of tire they have so the surface is what’s always changing
Kevin, I am sending you my best thoughts and good vibes.
You mean .. prayers
@@g496r500t nope
Fantastic INFO!! This has been an issue for me since riding bmx bikes as a kid. Always had that slide out gremlin in my brain. No more!
Traction Enhancer ... LOL !!!
Man, my tyres are never going to slip!!
Same here...lol
I'm telling my wife it's a 'safety feature' from now on.
Its called locktight 🤪
another positive about the traction enhancer is that its portable from bike to bike.
My buddies and elders only told me to trust your bike and yourself.
I take very good care of my bike (2001fxd Dyna glide).
This taught me something so thanks. I got new tires over the weekend and today (Sunday, May 15th) gotta go pick her up and ride for a bit today. ✌️
Thanks again for a great video Kevin, ride safe ;-)
Hey thanks. I've ridden streetbikes over 600,000 miles,but am always learning and honing my skills. And one must view the constant challenge of staying safe while riding,as one of the joys of riding. To a degree,our actions on our motorcycles affect the other motorists around us. How we manage them has a tremendous effect on our safety. I never assume that I'm visible to other motorists or that their reactions will be at all in my favor or what I desire. I remain prepared for the unexpected.
And as years of being a professional motorcycle mechanic,I've found that nothing affects the handling of a motorcycle more than tire pressure. Low tire psi creates a very dangerous situation. Motorcycle tires need to be checked at least once a month.
I was a young overconfident rider in the 80s. Steep, hard leaning, exaggerated turns were the norm. One rainy day my front wheel lost traction while turning left. Eerie sensation, felt like slow motion as I fell over. Picked up bike, brushed myself off w/ only a sore wrist. Ironically, it was same day I had mcycle saftey course.
Great info, thanks. Could you site the source of those G numbers?
What I've learned in 946,000 miles...on pavement...is that if you are already getting nervous ("will my tires slip?") you can go ahead and crank on more throttle. The tires can handle anything you can do if your level is only 'Nervous' UNLESS YOU SCRAPE PARTS. The bike's frame will also 'settle' as you accelerate smoothly because the suspension becomes more even front to rear. We started east on Hwy 88 from his house halfway up the Western slope of the Sierra Nevada Mountains and raced to Topaz Lake in Nevada. His Hypermotard Duc had handling by the bucket full, My stg1 V-strom 1000 twin had the horsepower. I scared myself, you bet, but just until I realized that I COULD do it. We'd traded places often yet in almost 100 miles nobody broke loose. Your tires are way better than you think they are.
At times beer bellies lose your centre of gravity, when the belly is left to go sideways.......hehehe!!!
One other caution while cornering (I dumped mine this way) was leaning right to the edge while turning onto a side street. The road was crowned at the edge where the two roadways joined. You guessed it, front wheel went over the crown, left board dug in, and rear tire raised enough to slide out and around. Fortunately I was not going very fast (20mph maybe) but it sure got my attention and I know I have been compensating ever since. Thanks for the info!! BTW - 2015 FLHR.
When your foot peg levers your rear tire off the ground you've gone too far….
Hey Kevin and everybody, a friend of mine crashed in rain in a corner and broke a couple of bones (which was a happy ending actually, taking into account that he hit a car going in the opposite direction) and I'm trying to learn as much as possible from his mistake so I'm googling for information around this topic. 1.0-1.1 and 0.9 G... that's exactly what I was looking for, thanks a lot for that interesting (and surprising!) information.
I think it's worth mentioning that decreased friction is not the only result of rain. The water on the road can easily hide various road surface hazards that we would normally swerved around. Raindrops and the moisture condensing on the vizor can hide other hazards from us. Water on car windshields and the aerosol between drivers' eyes and us can cause them not to see us... it seems these hazards are more important than the traction difference between dry and wet asphalt, aren't they?
I never was good at math in school... So I'll just slow down.. 😁
I was quite good at math (not my judgement, others have said so). I still slow down 🤣
I've been riding 35 years and now on a Honda VTX 1800 cruiser with of coarse traction enhancer included, thanks for the facts. It does cross my mind of losing traction on curves but usually only in wet weather mainly because you can't tell if the road may have oil spilled on it or sand , etc. Thanks again, Nelson
This is probably the single - most useful (and clearest) video I have watched as I get back into biking. Awesome - many thanks
More video and less sleepy eye...
I've rode for 51 years and still learn something. Good video.
An old friend of mine can take many turns at 2-4 times the posted recommended speed while low enough that his hand could easily reach out and touch the ground. when I asked how he doesn't topple over, he replied "because you're going too fast". The whole concept actually makes sense now
traction: rear tyres ability to transfer the power from engine and gears to surface. grip: tyres ability to not to slip (not skid or lock). those are both depend on contact area, vectoral forces, surface and rubber friction etc.
Thanks for this no- nonsense informative video. So refreshing to see just a regular guy giving information without trying to be supercool TV presenter! 👍
Thanks KEVIN! I used to race an old TZ 250 and I learned and utilized information from people who were up in the top 5 and taught me how to corner my racebike!
Your videos make my new cruiser more fun and safe. Blessings to you and yours brother 🙏.
I bought a new 2015 Heritage after not riding for a little over 20 years. Last summer I was coming home and one of the curves I have to make is a 90 degree turn, basically a left turn. As I approached the turn I was lost in my thoughts and suddenly realized I was in the wrong gear and going too fast. My heart started pounding but I decided to just ride it out. About halfway through the turn the footboard started scraping which startled me as I hadn't done that before, but I rode it out and the bike was solid as I exited the turn and straightened out. Although this was a teachable moment about situational awareness, I also got a renewed confidence in that the bike won't let me down unless I really screw up.
One remark in the video I have to take issue with. Yes, the footboards will scrape on Harleys at lesser angle than sport bikes. But they are hinged, not solid and will give quite a bit before your lean angle is too steep.
Just the other day I took a turn and I could feel the rear tire do a little jig... I thought it was because I like to use a little lemon pledge on my side walls. But I believe it was really the cold temps at the time. I just got on the bike and drove 4 blocks to my turn and leaned into the turn... I can't get my bike down to the edge of my chicken strips... there is 3/4" to the edge that will never get used if I did that would mean my foot peg would rub the pavement.... So adding a little shine to my side wall wasn't the problem..... Thanks Kevin...
The major limiting factor is the coefficient of friction of the tires on the road. However it is directly proportional to the Normal Force (mass × gravity) also (F=ma) or (F=mg.) So I would say that speed, but more so acceleration would play a large role in how much traction the bike has. The more we learn the more downward force is also places on the road to counter balance the centripetal force pulling the bike outward. Note that it would take more Force to break traction than to maintain the slide of the tire as that would require less force . Static friction vs kinetic friction for those who are interested.
It's important, especially on a sports bike, not to accelerate suddenly during a turn when it's wet or gravelly, make sure it's a smooth acceleration all the way through until you're more upright. A sudden whip of the throttle can spin your tire out of traction. As long as you're steady you have nothing to worry about. He mentions it "chopping the throttle", but that's the only thing that got me to dump my bike, nothing else really, my own error when I "chopped the throttle". Helps when you're in the proper gear too.
Kevin, been following now for a few weeks and love these videos. I just turned 50, and at 24 I was hit by a drunk driver on my very first motorcycle. Luckily I was fine, however I only had my permit at the time, bike was totaled, and I was a bit spooked. Some years later my Dad bought a Sportster 1200 and I got my permit again and started riding his bike, and needless to say fell in love all over again but never actually got my endorsement. Now, I’m finally in a position to buy a bike again and looking forward to taking the class, but I’ve learned so many little things from watching your videos! Things that maybe not everyone would teach. So, thank you! I wish you were in my neck of the woods!
Number One always ! A bike must be in great working order all round if you expect it to measure up to your own level of control riding it.
I ride a Yamaha 1100 V Star Classic and my fear is never losing traction, it is always fear of the scrape. I started out riding dirt bikes and motocross and so was used to laying bikes on their sides going around turns. I can't do that now and it always scares me when I hear the scrape, even after 40 years. Thanks for your video. I always enjoy watching!
U are a expert instructor clearly, I've been riding since 1977
This was my first time watching MCrider and the presentation was made with common sense as the baseline. Keeping it simple and not overly technical where anyone could understand the principles. Then you have the nick pickers which invariably happens, some with good intentions while others are seeking their 15 minutes of fame. I was a motor cop for five years, the first year on a Harley and the remaining on a K1000 Kawasaki. I was fortunate to have extensive training at the CHP Academy, but after my stint there I continued to ride, but on sport bikes for recreational riding and doing track days to learn more about pushing the envelope. As I got older I wanted to experience longer road rides and escape the 3 to 4 hour "butt radius" of sport bike riding, so I bought a sport tour bike. It didn't suit my needs so I went all in and bought a Road King. Played with it, upgraded and loaded it up like many Harley owners do, but I paid attention to suspension upgrades and doing that really improved the stability and my confidence with the bike. It was an older model, an 03 and I always wondered how the 09 improvement of the frame would have felt, but I never had that chance because after doing a long ride to Death Valley and back I realized the Road King was not a touring machine, at least for me. It was a great day tripper or overnighter, but for longer slabs it failed to deliver. I never thought I would do it, in fact I never thought I would ever buy a Harley, but myself and another rider on the trip decided on going with the Honda Goldwing. It satisfies all of my touring needs except for lower ground clearance and at this point I'm not questioning my motorcycle choices. In my case I have an excellent touring bike, but when I want to experience the thrill of canyon carving or variety of riding conditions, I still have my Ducati 999R in the garage waiting for those days when I get that wild hair going.
Again, a common sense explanation done in a calm and calculated manner without a bunch of non essential info that can take the reader off point.
John S it is nitpick. Wait a minute I think I just did it.
Tires, tires, tires...
The most important factor in this big “traction equation”.
It would be maybe an interesting subject: “the right tire for me”.
Thank you Kevin for the great work 👍👍👍
So glad to find your channel. I'm a returning rider and find your videos give me more confidence when riding. Thank you for your time.
its true that you don't lose as much traction in the rain as some people think. however wet roads make metal drain covers and road markings like ice and when its raining its much harder to see them and that is why you have to slow down a lot in the rain. if you lose traction in the rear going around a corner its usually not much of a drama, just ease off the gas a little and the bike will come back. however if you slide in the front your face down in the concrete before you have had time to realize so never use front brake while your leaned over