Classic Bus Histories Episode IV: Daimler Fleetline
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- Опубликовано: 23 янв 2024
- Hello!
Here's is episode 4 of Classic Bus Histories and this week we're looking the Daimler (and Leyland) Fleetline.
I will be producing a video in the future about the history of the London Transport DMS class Fleetline so although I talk about in here I certainly don't go into depth about it.
Also I will be looking into producing a video about classic bus engines as well following a few comments about more technical information.
I hope you enjoy the video, they seem to be getting longer, I apologise. I might have to learn to stop rabbiting so much! If you do enjoy it, please like, share and subscribe to my channel. This will ensure you don't miss my future releases.
Talking about future releases, this will see the Leyland National, the AEC Regent and the Leyland Titan (B15) covered.
Nice to see the GCT example that was converted into the open top bus and operated by Stagecoach. The GCT liveries suited their Roe bodied fleet very well, especially when adorned with the Grimsby and Cleethorpes coats of arms. Much of my youth was spent in their Gardner engined examples, and also the small fleet (5?) of ex LT DMS buses that received heritage liveries. Happy days, happy memories.
I remember back in 2014, I went on one of the last revenue earning Daimler Fleetline in the country oporated by Stagecoach East Midlads. The Stagecoach fleet number was 15513 and it operated its last revenue earning on the Cleethorpes service 17 from Cleethorpes Pier to Haven Holidays, was known back then as Thorpe Park. After then, the vehicle was preserved in an orange and white livery by the Grimsby Fishing Museum to run bus rallys.
@@D2Dale That was a nice looking bus. The more modern Stagecoach 'beachball' livery seemed to suit it.
Interesting mini-doc on the Fleetline. Remember the early DMS' being delivered to Abbey Wood for route 177. Early ones were OK, never liked the B20 though. Again later they looked very shabby. London DMS' did look like Mancunians which looked very smart. Liked the DMS blue seat moquette used also on 1967 tube stock, a modernised RF also had the same moquette, it suited it very well. My ABC Ian Allen LT fleet book states that some DMS' had Rolls Royce engines!
I drove several versions of Fleetlines in an earlier life, both the double deck and single deck, we had some with double entry doors that were fitted with large air-operated gear change columns that had a door selector position, it was impossible to open any doors without this position selected, then the air had to exhaust from the system before the door would open, and then charge again before the gears would engage, this made them very slow to work with, I admit that I was never a fan of the Daimlers we had, they were all fitted with Goodyear "Unisteel" tyres that made the steering very vague and the brakes had very little feel to them, it was only later when they started using a different type of brake lining that this improved. It was very much a "Company" bus and not a drivers bus.
I must admit I prefer the Atlanteans, apart from the DMS Fleetlines of course.
I travelled on the first London DMS buses on the 220 when I was 3 from White City to Hammersmith later I would get them to goto school in Fulham but by then they got replaced by the B20 type this was 1979 until 83 when metros took over ,ironically I was on the 220 rota when I was at S,XF3 that’s got a slightly larger bustle I think it has a Cummins engine those 8 survived until 81 with London country and done better than the DMS ,but LT with that useless self service turnstile and interlocks extra weight the DMs which was for crew work had a bench seat instead much better ,I was called sad once bec I can tell which is a Park Royal bus or a MCW one
All the best
Mark 😊😊
Fleetlines were a common sight in Hong Kong when I was growing up as a kid. I live on the Kowloon side, so KMB Fleetlines, both MetSec and BACo bodied ones are good childhood memories, while the CMB ones, especially those fitted with Alexander CB Bodies, had definitely made them much more modern.
Remember going to school on the DMs in 1977 i liked them
Hi i'm viatron from Sheffield, I remember the Daimler Fleetline rear engined double deck buses being operated by the Sheffield Transport Dept back in the 60s via having the Sheffield-type Park Royal front entrance double deck bodies on them. But a very unusual batch of 20 locally built Neepsend bodied Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2 variant fitted with a Leyland 0.680 diesel engines & a Daimler Daimatic 4-speed electro-magnetic air operated semi-automatic gearboxes what did strangely sounded like a standard Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX ? But it wasn't plus it linked to the Leyland Fleetline FE-series in the later years when production had ended. Thanks for your co-operation on this type of bus from the past. From David Viatron Esquire of crookes in Sheffield.
The LT XF was my favourite especially XF3 when it had the extended rear bonnet and Cummins engine. What a sound and so different from the Gardeners of the others. Many years spent commuting on these to school and work. Loved them.
For me it was the Alexander Bodied Midland Red versions...loved them.
Carris of Lisbon, Portugal operated a fleet of 55 (mostly built in 1967, with the last models being from 1969-70). They were taken out of service by 1996, after the introduction of the Volvo B10M articulated buses.
Very stylish bodywork on those Atlanteans in my opinion.
Born in 64 in Coventry, the Fleetline was what a double-decker was to me. Also there was a definite preference for the Coventry built ones, the Leyland built ones with their "flying plughole" British Leyland badge seemed a good bit more primitive and rattly than a Coventry built one, but that might just be representative of the decline in quality of so many British things in the early 70s. The Olympian never made it to Coventry instead we had the MCW, which of course retained the Gardener engine. However I was to get connected to the Olympian although it was the Volvo Olympian as joined AB Volvo in 1999 and now live in Gothenburg Sweden.
Another fantastic video, really looking forward to the Metropolitan one 😉😉😊
Loved our Park Royal bodied Fleetlines in Sheffield, sounded great as well.
The Daimler Fleetline used to be a regular sight in York city centre: the York Pullman Bus Co. ran both double and single deckers from Exhibition Square to the towns and villages to the north and north west of the city and from Piccadilly out to the towns and villages east of the city. Their maintenance depot was also in Piccadilly next to The Red Lion pub. I used these services very regularly and loved the comparative luxury of these to the rattly old Lodekkas used by the local National bus co - and they were pretty much always on time as well!
As a Coventry kid, growing up on Radford Road I can vividly recall seeing these buses 'on-test'. They would be minus their body, so just the driver in an open cab, with the bare chassis. Invariably the driver would be wrapped up like the Michelin-Man to protect them from the elements.
Great video! Thanks for the mention of Sheffield having their version of the DMS. These were my childhood school buses, eventually replaced with MCW Metrobuses. Sheffield also had fleetlines that were ECW bodied to a design only used by Sheffield and Colchester Council Transport. These were my favourites.
Glad you liked it. Yes the ECW body is very much a what might have been had they updated their design.
I remember these on route 252 out of Hornchurch garage. Used to be from South Hornchurch Morecambe Close to Collier Row. Can't remember if these had the multi-ride ticket option on them or whether that came about when the Titans were introduced.
They did, took over from the SMS in March 1975.
I recall Belfast getting Daimler Fleetlines to replace the Belfast Corporation trolleybuses in late 1960s. Sadly a number of them ended up as baricades during The Troubles!
Beautiful beast
i remember that London Transport had these buses at Sutton bus garage in the 80s had a Leyland 680 diesel engine, great days,
They were better when they re-engined them around ‘88. Was sorry to see them replaced with the awful MCWs in the 90s
If I'm right we supplied and reconditioned iveco engines to Sutton garage along with a few others when I served my apprenticeship as a diesel fitter. Coincidentally mostly working on the 8361 which was for these buses.
I use wife's account, can't be bothered doing my own.
@@staceypryde1361 certainly made them perform. Also gave them a distinctive whine from the transmission/final drive. When in lived at roundshaw you could hear the night bus coming up Sandy Lane. They really flew running night services with quiet roads
Born in 64 in outer London I remember all these buses as there was London country buses as well
Very enjoyable . From Paisley, Scotland so my local buses in the late 60s and through the 70s were Fleetlines of Western SMT . Lovely deep red and cream paintwork . Had Alexander and NCW bodywork . As a wee boy I thought they were different buses not realising common chassis different bodies . They were my main bus ( had a wee flirtation with Bristol VRs but that didn’t end well as you know) up until 1978 when Western got it’s first batch of Volvo Ailsas . There were more Ailsas in 79/80 but also a final batch of Fleetlines in Alexander and NCW bodies . Western later got some ex London DMS s and a local operator Graham’s had both Alexander Fleetlines , atlanteans and later DMS’s .
Glad you liked it Russell. Thanks for sharing your memories.
Can assure you Jay that the one-off Walsall Cummins V6 Fleetline is noisy both inside and outside, it is also unique in having 2 staircases, a front entrance and rear exit and an early internal camera system, enabling the driver to check for passengers near the rear door.
Sounds an amazing vehicle Michael.
Thank you for this absorbing video with all the detailed information you provided as well as the fantastic choice of photos.
Glad you liked it.
The South Yorkshire version was part of a batch of sixty buses and should have been bodied by Alexander. Due to delivery delays, the first twenty nine were bodied by MCW but to the DMS design. They had SYPTE spec interiors but retained London spec cream painted metal ceilings on both decks. Some later saw service in London with Grey Green and Cityrama.
These buses were part of my childhood with a couple of different examples being our school buses all the way through the mid to late 90s, operated by Farleigh Coaches
Great video! The premier operator of Daimler Fleetlines in the 1960s was of course Birmingham City Transport, when they standardised on the Fleetline for their double decker buses. They were everywhere in the city in bodywork types that evolved with each batch ordered, and I reckon I must have travelled on all of them (the types, that is, not all of BCT’s buses!). My favourites were the MCW bodied vehicles stationed at the Lea Hall depot in east B’ham from 1966/67, registrations FOCxxxD. They ran mostly on route 14 (the most lucrative route in the city at the time). I thought they were a very attractive bus. The “Manchester front” Fleetlines looked good too; BCT had a few running from garages in the south and southwest of the City (Yardley Wood?)
Sorry, but I was never able to take to the bodywork design of the LT DMS Fleetlines; I thought they looked far too boxy!
I believe North Western bought its first batch of Daimler Fleetlines CRG6LX with Alexander body in 1963; as well that year buying AEC Renowns with Park Royal body. Some drivers didn't like the Fleetlines because of the open cab and when they turned the steering wheel, nothing happened at first! As a passenger in the 60s I preferred the 'solid' Renowns and the Dennis Loline IIIs.
Interesting video. Can just about remember Birkenhead Corporation Transport's Daimler Fleetline's when visiting my grandparents. Think Wallasey(next door) had the first Leyland Atlantians. 🤔😃
Still bulletproof. Hence why those in preservation are still standing. The modern buses are less years old falling to bits
Lovely !!!!
While I was at Catford Garage (TL) I took a photo of a Rolls Royce engine in a DMS..
I'd love to hear one of those running. Bit juicy by all accounts though.
One of these (KJD 89P) was still being used by Prestwood Travel of Buckinghamshire as a school bus as recently as 2004.
I'd like to give you a huge thanks for these videos as they are absolutely fascinating! As someone who's "childhood buses" consisted of Dennis Dart SLFs and Wright Renowns (im 24!) I love learning about these older vehicles, they fascinate me! I Was very lucky to have grown up with the fleet of Jim Stones Coaches of Leigh who ran Leyland Tigers on my school route until the early 2010s! I wonder if you have a video on the Tiger planned? as I'd love to learn more about them.
I'm glad you're enjoying the series. Can't do the Leopard without doing the Tiger can I? Yes I will certainly include it at some point.
Thanks, for a great video.
Glad you liked it
I trained and passed my test on a DMS Fleetline it was a training bus and still had the fixed fare turnstile installed. As I was based at Potters Bar a garage that inherited all sorts of odd vehicles from London Transport, it could be a DMS, Volvo Ailsa [front engine], Metro, Leyland single deck and later Scania, we never knew what we would be expected to drive. We had Volvos with 1 and 2 staircases, single and 2 door, engines at front and rear. Must admit I preferred a Metro on the 84's my regular route, did the 242 as well, maybe it was me in the cab in your photo!
Potters Bar was very varied wasn't it? I think it was a good time to be in the industry.
> Potters Bar a garage that inherited all sorts of odd vehicles from London Transport
That garage does seem to be the repository of buses that LT/TfL operators don't know what to do with.
In the mid 1980s Metroline (I think) purchased some Volvo Ailsas from West Midlands Transport and housed them at Potters Bar garage to run on the W8 outer suburban route in Enfield. Being an exiled Brummie living in the area, I found travelling on these W8 buses both nostalgic and amusing, since although they had been repainted red on the outside (from WMPTE blue and cream), the insides were still standard WMPTE yellow, and had the original Birmingham area adverts above the lighting. There was even a WMPTE advert consisting of a cartoon bee saying “Take the buzz!” (Brummies often pronounce “bus” as “buzz”.)
It was still London Northern in the mid to late 1980's then became MTL. I remember a busy Saturday in summer ['87/88?] doing the 107 route to Queensbury station with a Volvo Ailsa sweating like mad from the heat of the engine right beside me. It broke down in Borehamwood behind the one in front also from overheating and there was another on the other side of the road some hundred yards away. My passengers were not happy, good job I was on a work rest day and getting extra pay plus weekend enhancement - happy days! Soon after that they started being sent to Barnsley for scrap, apparently V12 [which went like a rocket] had a section of the chassis missing in the middle....@@johnevans2044
@@brianwood9913 Sounds horrendous. Maybe that's why the WMPTE got rid of them. They must have done a Del Boy type deal (in reverse) to ship them down to London!
The lowbridge Northern Counties body on the M&D Fleetlines wore the old dark green livery with the cream moustache so well. I can remember them soldiering on in leaf green reduced to that grimmest of fates, the Hadlow only school run from Tonbridge!
They were handsome vehicles. I must admit, I was more dazzled by the Atlanteans but in retrospective the Fleetlines are just as good. I think there's at two survivors?
I often went to school in the late 90s on a variety of Fleetlines run by Thamesdown. One of them is in this video, 202 was the fleet number. At that point they were the B fleet ran mostly for school travel. My Dad and brother often drove them and would comment on which went fast and which were crap. They were surprised that 199 made it into preservation as although it was one of the quicker ones, it had no power steering and was allegedly a pig to drive.
Sometimes the bad ones survive and the good ones slip through the net!
Out of the three British transverse rear engine double deckers, these are the most fascinating.
Those rear hubs look similar to AEC rear hubs used in the Regent III and V deckers as well as the Regal III and IV.
That DMS in the beginning of the video would have me obsessed if it has a two speed transmission.
She has a four speed semi auto fitted now.
@@jakeyb2003 I knew it has a mono control semi auto, I poorly conveyed that a two speed transmission would sound good with that engine note that bus made.
The metro Scanias were the ones for two speed tranny lovers like me.
Enjoying this series of videos! Many varied memories of travelling on DMSs in the 70s!!
Glad to hear it!
Chesterfield had an impressive fleet of Daimler and Leyland Fleetlines, bought throughout the 1970s and bodied by Charles Roe in Leeds. They then went on the buy 16 exLondon DMSs in the early 1980s to supplement their own vehicles. Some of these ended up with Stagecoach after Chesterfield Transport was sold in the mid-90s.
The Chestfield ones were very stylish buses.
I remember Fleetlines being on many routes in South London in my childhood (Wandle District if I remember correctly). For a while they had turnstile/ticket machines in the right lane when boarding, but I never saw them being used, and instead everyone went to the left and paid the driver or showed their pass.
That's right. It was the AFC turnstile.
The first single deck Fleetline photo you show in WMPTE livery is actually an AEC Swift, it had a similar looking front end to Fleetline bodywork.
I like Swifts too. But not so much when they're pretending to be a Fleetline!
Small point, but the featured BCT/WMPTE 3663 is an AEC Swift.
The purchase of 50 experimental Atlanteans in London was made so they could compare them with Routemasters. The 8 Fleetlines were destined for London Country, with a view to experimenting with off peak one person operation. It wasn't the original intent to compare one against the other (despite what Wikipedia says). The Atlanteans didn't perform that well in the central area, and it was only subsequently the Fleetlines were brought in to see if they performed any better. Which they did.
Well Birmingham City Transport ran a large fleet of Fleetlines from the mid 1960s onwards, and they seemed to be pleased with them. Rush hour traffic congestion in the city was very like that in Central London and the Fleetlines coped well with it. Brum is quite hilly in parts too (the centre is on a plateau, not in a river valley like most other cities) and the Fleetlines were pretty good on hills.
The Fleetlines were bought in 1965/66; London Country didn't exist until 1970.
Both fleets were bought by London Transport.
@@malbecmikegrey996I stand corrected....
Fun fact: the experimental Atlanteans from London eventually found the whole class being purchased by China Motor Bus operating on Hong Kong Island. Was sent out to retirement around late 1970s.
Southtown buses in Brighton ran a few of them
Many Daimler Fleetlines were bodied by Metro-Cammell in Washwood Heath, Birmingham. I lived on the east side of Brum in those days, and I can remember seeing a Fleetline chassis being driven on the A452 near Coleshill from the Daimler works in Coventry up to Castle Bromwich, thence to Washwood Heath. The chassis had a makeshift windscreen attached to it, and a seat for the driver, who was well-wrapped up against the cold as he made the 15 to 20 mile journey along the main roads between the two cities. It must have been a nightmare trying to drive a naked bus chassis with a huge engine on the back and no bodywork to weigh it all down. Not a job I’d volunteer for!
From what I've read (mostly about the VR chassis drivers between Bristol and Lowestoft) it was very bumpy and bouncy as the chassis flexed and twisted.
I still live in Saltley / Washwood Heath. I’m an 80s boy, so my memories are seeing many operators Metrobuses everywhere in the area. Sadly all of what was left of the factory is no more. The last of it demolished within the last couple of years for the HS2 depot.
@@jakeyb2003 I can believe it!
@@discogareth Yes, very sad. The Piccadilly 1973 Tube stock was built by Metro Cammell at their Saltley/Washwood Heath site. The stock is still running but is due to be replaced over the coming years with new trains built by... Siemens in Germany. The only train/rolling stock construction companies we have left in the UK are all foreign owned, many just assembling stuff from kits of parts shipped in from elsewhere (Hitachi, CAF...). We do seem to have a relatively homegrown bus manufacturing capability though. Although I noted from last year's Inside The Factory program on TV that the Alexander Dennis factory in Scarborough builds electric buses on chassis that are imported from China. 🙁
fleetlines were part of my younger days.and boulder bridge lane is sadly only 25 mins from my house
Brum did take 10 Atlanteans and 10 Fleetlines together in 1961, as a back to back trial.
The Fleetline has a quieter sounding engine compared to the Atlantean, had different wheel covers and engine cover to identify the bus as a Fleetline. I could always tell what make of bus was at the stop near my house by the sound of the engine.
So my old man worked for a company that fitted,repaired and serviced trawlers in GY. As a kid I did ride alongs and often wondered why he would drop off parts and visit Manchester a lot. He also went to our local bus depot and surrounding areas such as Hull bus depot which was huge, to me.
He had a load of Gardner parts in the garage only a few years ago still wrapped in wax unfortunately he didn’t get any takers so it went to scrap. I told him try you bus people 😢
So the gov banned bigger buses, yes because one person in a car is more tax and it’s less green 🙄
Travelled on a EX London DMS on school trips
Nice video, thank you.
I was getting all excited as I thought it was going to be about the London DMS.
I travelled to school on the DMS and I had a later connection with Ensignbus.
Most of the time on the school run I spent it speaking to the driver and being allowed to change the route blind, heady stuff!
Never understood the poor reputation of the DMS, I never had one breakdown on me, or indeed saw a broken down one in service.
Although I do remember door issues when fully loaded.
Best seat used to be at the back, where it was warm by the engine.
I was in HK on business late 90s and was amazed to see 2 of the DMS's I used to get to school, being used on the island, albeit looking rather differently.
Can you do a DMS video?
Thanks
Glad you liked it. Yes I love the DMS too. We had them operating on docks buses at Ramsgate in the 1990's. I will be doing a video on the DMS later on.
@@jakeyb2003 Yes, I saw another x LT DMS that I went to school on at Dover Docks in 1987, wonder if it was the same?
@@rororp I think Townshend Thoresen had two DMS and a few of the Merlin/Swift single deckers.
Am I not right in thinking that the DMS was a disaster in London ? This resulted in the persistence of the RM which was really a more sophisticated design although being rear entrance.
There was nothing wrong with the DMS as a bus, unfortunately London Transport's maintenance regime was centred around buses like the RT and RM. The DMS didn't fit in with this. Coupled to the rather poor after sales support you could assume Leyland were givin at that time which certainly didn't help. Also it wasn't unknown for buses to be sabotaged by (mostly) drivers. I know both the DMS and MD class suffered from this. Things such as selecting reverse at speed would happily blow a gearbox.
I remember going to school in 1983 to 85 on two Daimler Fleetlines owned by Collingwoods Of Wheatley Hill. I've never seen any like them since, they were ex Nottingham City they had a long dashboard with an ammeter style speedo and a six slotted floor mounted semi automatic gearbox. Four speed with reverse and the sixth slot was for door opening control.
Would love it if anybody has any pictures of these ex Nottingham City double deckers
There's a few on Flickr. I've driven the Leyland Atlantean version of the Nottingham bus but not the Fleetlines. They had a strange (to me!) layout.
Very interesting article, I myself started my engineering apprenticeship at Chiswick where we had DM/DMS types which at the time had overheating issues, I move to Aldenham in mid 70's after finishing said degree. Once again coming into contact with DM/DMS types still giving garages headaches with overheating issues. Notable of this was Merton garage. On the 93 route where they were replaced by RM's, DMS being put on route 293. Londoners didn't like standing in traffic on hills.. I transferred to London Country at Hemel Hempstead we only had AN68's and Nationals, until one day I received notification from Reigate that our trainer bus ex Ribble PD was to be replaced. We received DMS640 in LCBS livery which carried out its duties to full. Well you never..
Passed my test on one of them at upton park garage
There wasn't anything wrong with the DMS, the problem was LT's inability to adapt to new designs.
Totally agree there. They're lovely buses.
I grew up with them in the Sutton area so I've got a soft spot for them.
I hold a PCV licence if anyone collects names for parades and open days etc. I don't drive professionally anymore, but would love to volunteer for events if needed.
I come from Birmingham and there still a lot of fleet lines in preservation like the last fleetline from the old wmpte fleet number 7000 reg sda700t
We had an army of ex WMPTE fleetlines up here in Sheffield in the 80s/90s during deregulation under Andrews of Sheffield , they were everywhere lol.
@stevedickson5853 compared to a GM standard of the same period, the WM Fleetlines were primitive in spec.
Southend transport had the last batch of Fleetlines
Drove all versions of Fleetline with Western/ Clydeside from the SBG standard Alexander D Type to the 2nd hand DMS which in turn were replaced by Routemasters. Not a good move in my personal opinion.
I'm confused about what I thought was a Leyland Mancunian, that now appears to have been a Daimler Fleetline 33ft. (Mancunian) It's the variations that get crazy ha
There were Leyland Atlanteans and Daimler Fleetlines with the Mancunian bodywork.
@@jakeyb2003 Excellent. I was so used to North West Counties bodies, I didn't think that Mancunian could be a body type, rather than a model.
I drove ghv86n for alpha coaches in hull. It was like driving a fridge. Terrible.
Cleveland Transit not Transport. And your sound dropped out a bit at that point.
They used to be Teesside Municipal Transport until Teesside became Cleveland - then they became Cleveland Transit!
Those buses with the doors in the middle were, theoretically, a way to be able to get passengers on and off at the same time - however, as my late nanna could have attested to, those buses were death traps - the middle doors were on an ingenious time switch which meant getting off quickly, as you could get trapped in the doors - after that happened to my nanna, my auntie would push her body up against the door so nanna couldn’t get trapped again!
A similar incident happened to me once -as recently as January 2nd this year - not on a bus, but a train - I got on the train in question in Middlesbrough and asked if it was the Darlington train - turned out it wasn’t, so I got off it, but got trapped in the doors - I managed to get the doors open again, though!
Boot??? it's called a bustle
Drove these in cornwall, absolute crap.
Horrible bus to drive, bouncy as hell.