Yes. Tanks were too strong. Tanks should need healing by healers. And healer´s dps is not that important anymore anyway. You do usually maybe a fourth of the dps of a damage dealer. If you do a fifth now because of this change, nobody should care.
no i like not having to heal when i play with good players. obviosuly its unpopular opinion. apparently most healers wanna be healing from start to finish without breaks
Absolutely. I am the healer in a group. Not the dps. Not the tank. Healer. Do I mind dpsing when the time is right? Of course not. We should always be pressing buttons. I don't mind if it's "hard". I mind if I feel irrelevant in a group , because tanks can heal themselves and dps have heals and defenses collectively better than mine. I want them to have a defensive that will give me time to cast the heal they need...not negate my heal.
@@ChrisBellamy-nb3cz Yeah most of the time sure, but the amount of random 1 shots that can happen just cause of 1 mistake is wild. and annoying as a healer cause im allways the one who gets blamed for other peoples incompetence.
@@LilysLofiStation I can give you a secret to not being blamed, if someone die you instantly flame them relentlessly without pause until you finish the dungeon or they quit the game. You will never get flamed if they cannot get a word in
I'm a Holy Paladin main and I like healing. I just dps when there is downtime, but I would love to heal way more. I'm more than happy to trade dpsing to do more healing
7:30 the problem is Blizz keeps saying that they need to nerf healing to prevent spikiness but then they never address the spikiness. As a result I don't trust them to address it this time.
yea that's the point indeed, they've failed so many times they lost their credibility regarding such situations. i really hope this isn't going into another whole expansion of figuring things out for them... geez (it has great potential tho)
Totally agree, hating on the tank changes not because the stated goals are bad, but for doubt that it will be correctly balanced to work that way. And it's not like the tank tuning needs to happen in order to understand the healer tuning impact, the healing pass needs to be fully completed to see what their downtime looks like.
Enough said. I am all for big HP pools and relaxed dmg to move your creativity on CD/CC usability and managing your mana as healer. I bet however we will still be seeing one shot mechanics all over + Tanks will be now kneeling when pull big. This is.... an entire system and gameplay nerf and ultimately making game less fun and more annoying.
Fine with this change to tanks, as long as the other 4 players in the group aren't also getting 100-10 in a single uninterrupted cast. Which they currently are.
I'm an old-school healer. I've been healing since Everquest in 1999. I enjoy healing the tank and buffing the tank. I honestly wish Blizzard would create a support slot in groups. Aug Evoker is a good start but why is it a bad thing to create more support specs for different classes?
Overall good changes. As a healer I want to heal more and spend less time doing damage. Hopefully they can transfer more damage from the group to the tank to prevent DF style spikey damage. Fortified nerf helps too
As a casual healer since the Vanilla days who recently took a break from WoW a few months back and is returning, I absolutely prefer healing more. Never liked being forced to dps as a healer or the fact that tanks were practically immune to so much damage that the healing was focused primarily to the dps or myself. Honestly, it just felt absurd. Yes, it's going to take a bit of getting used to the new normal and, provided Blizzard are sincere in their efforts to shift the tanking philosophy, I think this will be a much welcome change. And yah, I expect some lazy tanks to create quite the fuss about having to perform their role a bit more meticulously than before. Same case for healers. More importantly, folks just need to up their game and just use defensives. It's not like we're being forced to play M+ 20 level keys; we're just being expected to know our respective classes a bit more, use defensives where necessary and not expect just the tank or the healer to pick up the overall slack of other lazy bums
I play a healer to heal and have since vanilla. I dislike how much non healing requirements have been put onto healers to push M+. Examples: Certain affixes "oh that is a healer affix". Certain healers can do crazy damage so only bring those classes, I hate that tanks out heal the healers. I do not miss the days when tanks were paper napkins but I like the direction Blizzard is trying to go, the question is can they accomplish it?
Maybe I am an oddball, but to me it's not fun competing with or get beaten by tanks in the healing meter. While I like DPS'ing on downtime, I chose the role to HEAL - Not to be a DPS, and having the most stressed healing moments be when DPS won't get out of avoidable damage (pugs) is... well not fun either. What got to me the most in DF was the getting asked to leave dungeon, respec to DPS, then later get asked to leave again to respec to Heals. If I wanted to play Spriest/boomie/Ret etc... I would have picked that spec. Now, I'm an old girl who has healed since late BC (been following this channel since you started btw) And maybe that's why, I am actually happy about these changes. I LIKE to be the one keeping my tank safe, and to utilize my spells to also keep the DPS alive. I have longed for the days where I would sometime feel like.. Heck man I just saved the day right there. We are no longer by-standers
I have to assume this whole go out and respec into dps thing has happened to you in higher keys, like at least 19s or 20s. If it is the case, then sure, why not. I mean, the whole point of doing infinitely scaling content is to optimize everything there is to optimize and if it takes a healer to go dps then why not. I don't really see the problem here, like let people do their +30 or +55 or whatever the way they want to, it does not interfere with casuals doing their +8s for the vault. In fact, try pulling off that no healer stuff in a pugs +10 key and see what happens lol.
You said it all ! I play healer to save the day (or at list try ;) ) and being beat at healing by a tank is really frustrating to me. Ask a dps if he would enjoy being beat by the tank at DPS? 😅
Ma'am, I'm going to need you to stop making so much sense and reel it back a little. You are hurting Blizz employee's brains and invading their safe spaces with your "basic common sense"
i mean, we're in a situation right now where healers don't even swap to dealing damage out of boredom or alike, but rather that it got so far as to be EXPECTED from them, so esp. if running high keys as a healer you can't just put your mind on healing, but have to feel pressured to pump out the maximum dps possible for your spec in the meanwhile, too. and that feels really unfair and contra-intuitive role-fantasy wise. for a healer to be blamed by the group in the end of a run when the timer wasn't beaten, not because insufficient healing but because insufficient DPS, that's just mental. it really got time they moved away from this, imo. actually wished they would do it in other of their game-ips as well... -.- who t f wants to play a HEALER to end up being forced to DPS? like, wow. like, why? dafuq? it's okay as an OPTION for very decent ppl to have something to brag with, but it shouldn't become mandatory, really.
As a resto druid main, I don't see a problem. I never had an issue healing on any expansion or season ever. I think this is a good change.A healer is suppose to heal!
I like the idea of missing a kick means you deal less damage or maybe your haste could be reduced for a couple of seconds, like the incorporeal/afflicted affix. Getting oneshot because a cast goes out feels so bad in pugging situations where everyone is overlapping their kicks due to the lack of coordination, especially as a healer without a kick like priest.
@@CB38096 All healers have a kick besides priest. Although shammies kick is the best as its ranged and a short cd with a massive defensive talent tied to it now
Long overdue for mechanics like this. Healers should have their own job to do even when the group is playing perfectly, and not be the only one to feel it when the group is doing mechanics poorly. The problem now is that pug dps are so used to zug zug that it's gotta be harsh penalties for them to even notice something happened. Long stuns, getting knocked 100yd away, losing all non-mana resources... a simple damage-down won't even register unless ElitismHelper is screaming at them every time it applies. Incorp/Afflicted tried to do this, but it ended up being the healer's job because that was an option, reinforcing the zug zugs. If they had been invisible to everyone except the 2 specific players being targeted each time, then those 2 eating huge debuffs would be a pretty clear sign they screwed up and it was their own fault.
I enjoy tank healing and I enjoy consistent rot damage. My favorite time healing was back in early Cataclsym, where it took time, thought, and effort to fill health bars but nobody was in danger of death until sub 35%. Triage was a thing. Mana management was a thing. I greatly dislike Dragonflight style healing of mostly healing burst damage to the DPS, then needing to DPS myself. I don’t play a healer to DPS, I play to heal.
@Scribbinge I played resto shaman from TBC until BFA where IMO they ruined Enhance ( offspec ). Since then im a tank, I remember the days of Spirit and mana-Management it was my favorite part of playing a healer haha. Id definetly re-roll healer if that came back in any way XD
Been healing/tanking since vanilla. Honestly, I really like the changes. It felt shitty having tanks be gods while we were wimps. It also gave a problem with how blizz designed tank damage. It was FAR too spikey during dangerous moments. Hopefully now it'll be a bit more balanced where they can't survive without me, but also I don't have to babysit them. Ideally as a healer, I want everyone to need me so they don't die (just like how everyone needs to tank so we don't die), but I also don't want to have to feel like I'm babysitting people or dealing with super spikey damage. I'm keen to give it a go in S1 TWW.
worst case (if not usual case?!) this is going to be fiddled with till s3 or s4, which seems to be the balancing and game-fixing sweet spot to be giving gos now -.- truth be told: for many players the game won't feel fair or fixed up to this point and will feel stale afterwards in w/e might be "the last" season... has been this way for at least 2 x-packs now. :/
@@havtor007 how do you come to that conclusion? it's the old default pretty much. and there were tanks back then too, in a similar usual shortage the likes of today... not to mention that there were tanks who likewise quit as the self-healing sh!t became a thing.
@@Melethrion the Fun aspect of tanking is being able to learn to deal with things and not need a healer. For tank players being able to survive is what makes tanking fun.
@@havtor007 always has been, except the "not need a healer" part. which is the part making the game weird. which is why many healers and devs long to counteract that. the challenge stays. to be fair it even gets more interesting imo and would even underline your own argument there. the risk and excitement are even bigger when you can't be sure to take whatever comes because you just self-heal it away anyway. it makes good movement, positioning and use of mechanics even more important. you can still show off that way as tank, if not even better. like in BT, when you already were king not having to practice illidan much. before self-healing got out of hand, the challenge has been delivered by other aspects of the game. like versatile and challenging encounter design that kept every role fantasy in mind.
They don’t get less compliments for their healing though. We went from “get praised for healing properly” to “get praised for healing properly or pulling high dps in tough keys”
@@Melethrion you’re only pressured to do both when not dps’ing becomes a problem, meaning in higher keys often. But when you get to higher keys, all roles are “pressured” to deliver more. You expect certain mechanics, certain setups of pulls etc from dps and tank players as well. It’s just the overall expectation bar that gets higher.
@@MsPagman ye but the wide impression of it is that for healers it's exponentially so. it's just circumstencial af to have to swap between "modes" so to say instead of staying in one, obv. logically so one would assume.
@@Melethrion but you don’t have to “swap” between modes as you say.. I would argue that the higher the difficulty the better you have to be at making judgement calls on what button to press, as simple as that. Let’s not act like pressing a dps button on a Druid or evoker is a complicated thing to do. Also one thing we’re not talking about at all is the weight of dps trinkets in an overall dps. Pressing sunfire as Druid is one global, and will allow your trinkets to proc. Those two things are the biggest source of dps you would do.
This is going to make m+ only have 2 dps spots. Aug evokers gonna be “mandatory” again. As a tank i enjoy knowing most of my survival is my own skill not the healers
The perfect indicator of tank healing balance is « is it worth it to put beacon of light and lifebloom on tank or not ? » if yes then tank healing is in nice place, if no tanks are too much self reliant
I wish they nerfed or maybe even removed dps defensive cooldowns, and balanced around that. Because the braindead dps meme is actually true, so many dps just think smashing buttons for damage is all they should do. Take damage? Why should I care, that is for the healer to fix. Also interrupt spells really should change from doing damage, to inflicting some kind of dps debuff. Maybe stun, maybe cause % damage debuff for X seconds. If the consequence of interrupt failure was put on the 3 dps players instead of the 1 healer it would be much more fair, and maybe dps would realise the importance of stops when their dps meter is being punished.
I’m a healer because I want to heal. I hate that healers have moved to so much DPS. If I wanted to do damage I would play DPS. I shouldn’t have to DPS to heal my team. I should only be DPSing when everyone is topped off.
What about players who push high keys where every bit of dps matters to time them? What about healers who rely on dps to heal (ancestral guidance etc)? No matter what they do to tuning, tanks, healers.. you will still see certain type of players or content need and/or love to dps
I like having moments to dps, not in the sweaty type of way, but more like 'there's little damage coming through, I can relax for a moment and prep for the next damage event' type of dps. Having to constantly sweat healing only bring back memories of really bad pugs.
@@MsPagman still, this shouldn't be necessary up to and including the point of reaching maximum weekly vault. because that's a thing everyone wants to be aiming at. which in df settles with m+20 if i'm not mistaken (didn't play s4). after that, get the fancy tactics going, idc, it's more sports than anything else from this point on anyway.
One of my biggest concerns is mana management. With healers having to focus on healing more, will we be able to maintain a good level of mana? Personally, I think the Dev Team should bring back Spirit to help with mana management.
tbh i think the idea of the role that takes the most damage being entirely ignored by the role that is supposed undo the act of taking damage is a design flaw. Tanks will complain cause they are losing their own power, which is valid i guess. But having a tank be able to finish a boss regardless of whether the rest of their party is even alive seems like a little too much power.
This was a part of the problem, but at most about 20% of the issue. The defensive bloat and aug are much bigger issues, as is an encounter design team that seems to ignore the rest of the team. This is an issue that should have been tackled at the beginning of alpha, not a week before prepatch.
Thanks for this great video and your thoughts! Personally, I enjoy doing a little DPS when healing is not required, but I enjoy healing itself more; using my main abilities to heal effectively, triage etc. I enjoy healing tanks, being a part of a group, having party health being a bit more of a consideration for the whole group. It's a fine balance, I think... come down to balance. We don't want tanking to feel less fun, a lot of the power fantasy for tanks is feeling op & unstoppable I feel. I wouldn't want them to feel weighed down, but a leader of the group, and it will be nice to be needed a little to keep the tank alive :)
Can't wait for yet another reason a key depletes due to bad healers. 90% of healers in DF didn't do more than 10k dps overall (while good healers were doing 60k+ and great healers were doing 120k+ all while still healing the group just as much). Now, they will actually have to heal even more and will still fail. I can't tell you how many times I've wiped in hoi because the healer couldnt meet the hps check for 3rd boss, or the dragons on fort weeks, or the first boss in ruby life pools or lightning boss in NO. I think the bigger issue is that even the most casual of player outgears the content that should be at their skill level. Healers and tanks get 525iL but are at a +6 skill level. This results in inflated m+ ratings and the incorrect perception that they are better than they actually are. Of course a tank doesnt feel like they need healing when they are overgeared, and yet we've all still had pug healers that have been absolutely terrible and have bricked keys because they couldn't make the healing checks despite being overgeared and adequate IO score.
This doesn't even get into the fact that the community has somehow gaslit themselves into thinking that tanks are unkillable and don't require healing. At mid level keys and when bigger pulls are needed, or pulls that have tank busters like in AA, you definitely had to heal the tank. As a tank main with healer alts that gets to around 3.4k each season, I have literally never had the issue of the tank being unkillable or groups that didn't need a healer. I have had more times than I could count though of healers that don't DPS at all but still can't meet healer checks. I have had instances where tanks pull and don't pop defensives and fall over (like prot pallies that refuse to stand in consecration). I think this all is a perception issue and frankly a skill issue. In my perfect world, people would be geared based on their skill so you didn't get hyper inflated healers/tanks with massive egos that still can't press their buttons correctly but time keys because they are massively overgeared for the content until they hit a wall and brick peoples runs. These changes are just incentivizing me to leave keys early (which I never do) when healers can't meet checks instead of wasting my time.
I think having tanks that can solo dungeons on their own without healers is bad, then it defeats the purpose of the healer. I think people forgot what the actual role of a healer is, it's to offer healing support to all party members, but mostly to the tank which is taking the brute of the damage. It forces tanks to make far more responsible choices when running dungeons. Everyone has a role, and those roles should have consequences, and I think tanks have become a role with almost no responsibility other than pulling as much as possible, doing more DPS than the DPS, and having no consequences for it because you have more self-healing than what the healer even provides. Bring back consequences for tanks, give back the roles of healing to the healers, and give back the role of DPS to the DPS. Tanks don't learn defensives anymore, because they don't focus on the defensive side of their class anymore because there is no risk to pulling half the dungeon when they have more self-healing than what the healer even provides.
As a tank and healer myself - this is a big mistake - no one asked for it - no one was saying nerf tanks - they devoted time to something no one wanted when they should be fixing stuff people been asking for .. for YEARS - again their making changes due to what the top 1% are doing
I'm 100% tank. This absolutely killed the role for me. I have too much to worry about. Surviving was the one thing I never needed to worry about, until now... Finding a healer in low level keys will be impossible. I'm not going to wait 40 minutes with DPS for a hero to arrive. I'll tank raids with my guild, that's it. I'll do Delves and let M+ rot. It's dead to me.
Perfect healing world for me is primarily healing from tanks and only healing dps if their positioning was bad or predictable rot damage. I think they need to reduce interrupts and stops required along with this change. No more ping pong!
As a healer I HATE the gameplay in DF. Currently I play R. Shaman, R. Druid, H. Priest and MW Monk. I love pugging lower keys because I'm scrambling to constantly heal (including tanks) due to players learning. I like focusing on healing and doing what my role is supposed to do. I loathe the higher keys because I have nothing to do but dps. If I wanted to be a dps I would play a dps. The only thing I feel useful for in high end keys are dispels and clarification for affixes. That's pathetic. If TWW has me healing then good.
Ive been playing since vanilla and healed since TBC, and the worst part for me as healer, has been the DPS race as healer and getting beaten by tanks on healing. It makes no sence for me with this. Tanks should mitigate damage, not heal it (death knights might be the joker here) But in general terms, tanks should have mitigation, and it should scale better with gear/stats, and they should have cooldowns for it, some ofc better for physical , some for magical. That being said, its just my opinion. I like healing, but i dont want to compete with tanks about it. This is a 5 man job, tanks holding aggro, DPS killing, cc, interrupt ect, and healers should keep EVERYONE alive.
What do you do when there's nothing to heal? There's 5-10 seconds until the next boss mechanic and everyone is full life. Or in your ideal gameplay loop there is always healing to do? I suppose if there's more tank healing to do then that's good for less downtime(e.g. dps)
I expect everyone to use everything in their repertoire. You wanna go afk while there is nothing/little to heal? I understand a bit less focus on damage but I have NO understanding for the "ME HEAL ME NO DMG".
Honestly I like the way healing is right now in DF, tho I'm only at a +10ish level of play. I like the freedom of being able to do mechanics, dps, stops etc. and top off the group quickly.
@@PapaSnurp my apologies. i didn't play s4 and so just went with the default up to the point. that levers out my argument, ofc. have to add that i can even relate pretty much. there's been a season i just went with the necessities, played alts quite a lot and felt less stressed playing.
As a healer I'm actually excited for these changes. If they get the balancing right - even if it might take some iterations. Also earlier days of wow crossed my mind, where tanks needed healing and that did not take away from the tank role and experience. Wow M+ is complex, there are endless interactions so buffs and nerfs will often affect not only the role and the class they are directed at. So of course there are many nuances to these changes and we might be about to go through some optimizable iterations of the role we love to play. BUT here are actual changes being made, a cummunity being listened to and the over all power of the dungeon group seems to be redistributed. I highly aprove of that. For my part I wanna see how all of this plays out and at this point i see no reason to nag and reject it all.
I like your positive attitude and I see it quite the same way. But at the same time I wonder if this is real hope or just a kind of cognitive dissonance and repression of things... like, maybe we're just prime examples of the worst case of copism... guess we'll see soon enough, huh.
@@Melethrion Your comment made me laugh out loud because i realized you might be right. To be fair it would have been smarter to introduce these changes earlier in beta. Guess i'm just hoping to have some sort of change that makes being a healer feel powerful and relevant. You could argue that healers are powerful and relevant, at one point it just stopped feeling like they are. At least to me.
@@schmodri well, they are, but i as well think that the fact that 1/5 of the group has been taken out of their focus and that pro players are now able to skip getting a healer in entirely has lost healers some of their role fantasy. also, imo they're getting pressured too much with the "obligation" (even if just pushed by other players and not always rightfully so) to deal damage and other additional and partially movement heavy mechanics bc dps is just too important to neglect... also having to keep a o-s-button rotation up for the most time can't be very appealing. tank self-heal has clearly gotten kind of out of hands nowadays and isn't contributing to the original vision of having that interdependent trinity (tank-heal-dps). I mean, you don't just go and start sharpening forks to the point where you can do without knives when eating because forks do the job just as well or even better. Something like that 😅
@@schmodri also, yes, from a balancing point of view it would've been smarter to have the changes hit earlier in beta - but is it as well from an economical point of view? it would've risked having less ppl spend extra cash on early access etc.
I think the goal of having healers be more involved with healing and keeping ppl alive is great, but for that I'd argue they still have to remove off-heals and def cds of healers and dps specs as well as doing a complete overhaul of dmg profiles. HOWEVER...I think the biggest issue for tanks is that selfsustainability in bigger and bigger pulls is the only real measure for improvement. The fear with these changes now is that the only way to pull bigger is relying on your healer to keep you up (I can play cata for that, thank you very much) or kite (awful for everybody involved). With these changes you also won't want your tank to optimise for damage and use that as the metric of skillexpression...so what is left there? Def cd-management in form of def-checks? We had that in legion with abilities that simply trucked you if you didnt press your AM at the right time and was scrapped after Legion alltogether being not well received. So the initial reaction is pretty much the fear of becoming a punching bag for Mobs without a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic for the tank-role
I think the biggest issue is the lack of understanding on Blizzard's end. As a tank main, some tanks like brew and prot warrior feel basically the same, while DK and prot pal feel worse. Unless they "tune" things well, Augvoker will again, be mandatory for keys, which really sucks.
Great video and a some nice perspectives! Personally I like to heal as much as i can and prefer healing over damage. If that means that healer need to heal the tank more and dont have time for doing damage I'm all for it. But i also think there's a downside to relying so heavily on the healer. We have different skill levels among players and timing a M+ should be a group effort and not a make or brake depending on the healers skill level. Therefore if blizzard wants to introduce this type of healing they need to introduce something extra. We already have the Fortified or Tyranical weeks maybe they should add a buff that reduces the damage taken to the tank depending on the key you do. So the higher the key the less damage reduction there is and on a certain key no damage reduction. This will give the ''new'' ''learning'' players the chance to learn everything about the healing spec without the stress moments. So overal i like the idea of giving more power to the healers but only if they make sure that every level of skill can have fun and grow.
I look forward to healing all 5 party members again. What I’m terrified about is doing that with the insane burst damage and number of interrupts within the new dungeons. Burst damage and damage caused by a missed interrupt must be nerfed
Yeah, I miss feeling like a team with my tank. Like they need me like I need them. So, sure, if-- and only if --Blizzard can hit their stated goals (tanks still mostly self-sufficient, no kite meta, steady incoming damage), I'm all for it. But, it can't all be player balancing. They also need to be better about designing encounters so that the damage is steady and less spiky. And ideally less mechanics bloat making pugs a nightmare on the two specs that still don't have an interrupt.
In my opinion, healers probably won't mind this change but tanks will probably hate it. I personally main tank & healer in m+ and this change definitely discourages me from wanting to tank. Tanks are already pretty scarce, my fear is that this type of approach nerfing tanks autonomy is going to make them even more scarce. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I don't like wack-a-mole healing, however I agree with you and Quazii that the defensives really need to be looked at along with Aug. Love the suggestion that missing an interrupt causes a stun or a haste debuff because that teaches folks real quick what they need to interrupt. Having a huge amount of damage as a result, especially in lower end groups, tends to get blamed on the healer as not being able to keep up.
Beta healing feels very hard. I’m concerned about the direction they are going. Damage incoming is still very high. I was 3.3k in S3 and 3k in S4. I’ve got healing footage on my channel if you’re interested in my beta experience healing.
I love these changes!! Going to be so good going back to healing and balancing between keeping the tank alive and saving the DPS that engaged too soon or simply over agroes. Love the idea of changing some stops into a stun of something instead of flat 1 shot damage.
if you wanna "go back" to that, classic's there. They won't achieve any of that with these stupid changes without reworking every single tank one by one.
@@RiptorrZ why would I play classic when it seems blizzard is going in what i THink the right direction is. and I did play Vanilla when it was called wow.
You gave an example about 2 pugs in the same key level and dungeon. I am an ex-mythic raider who plays solo/pug now. As much as failures can be attributed to skill issues in pugs, another (imo even bigger) problem in pug groups is coordination. I witnessed countless times that we use 3-4 interrupts on the same cast, run out rupts, and a deadly cast goes off. Blizzard will never get dungeon balance right for the majority (pugs), if they look at coordinated groups and aim to come up with something that challenges them. Instead, they should let the infinite scaling deal with presenting a challenge for them and focus on coming up things that can meaningfully challenge pug m+ groups, imo.
About defensives and defensive bloat with the higher and higher damage that results from it: If Blizzard is currently assuming people will use defensives and tunes accordingly, what would happen if they just... didn't, tuning the base Mythic dungeon experience around nobody playing properly while increasing key level scaling a bit, aiming at a situation, where a +11 where people barely use their defensives is doable but hard? After all, everything below +12 plays with the casual affixes, make it a casual experience. And then, if you want to be challenged, you can go into +12s and up, where the scaling is ramped up a little bit more and quickly forces you to play your defensives better to live. The M+ casuals/raiders who just want their hero track stuff and myth track vault can just have a chill time, while the M+ enjoyers who want to push themselves and see how far they can go... can do that once they move past +12s. Sure, their survivability will get stretched to the limit as they move up, moving from a +14 to a +15 might be a bit jarring, but hey, they opted for that by moving past +11 in the first place.
I agree that the key scaling should determine if a player needs to be using defensive, interrupts, stops etc. Their baseline tuning should assume that nobody is doing the right thing. Eventually, scaling will overcome that playstyle and players will be required to press their buttons.
I hate targeted one shots. I love mechanical one shots. I do very much like the idea that all of the interruptable/stunable one shot mechanics gets changed to something that just sucks for the player (the damage decrease is great, would make dps care more). Thank you for the video! I enjoy the thought experiments you create with them!
I wish that all healers had some sort of enhancement playstyle where we could enhance DPS while also focusing on healing. I feel like that would be a much better and rewarding experience for everyone. It would allow the healer to focus on supporting the group while also putting the dps focus back on the dps. I would much rather have that type of gameplay and be able to contribute to dps in that manor VS doing the having to do the dps myself (depending on the specialization that I am playing). It might also help with the utility situation in raids and help make some classes more viable.
I like those changes in philosophy. Tank healing can be very fun and rewarding. I remember having blast with rdruid in shadowlands, with verdant infusion build trying to roll one cenarius ward as long as possible with all other hots. I played with undergeared Brewmaster so he was my main priority. It was a great feeling that I couldn't replicate ever since. I would gladly get it back. Long sustained tank healing is a challenge I would welcome sometimes.
The delta between a group that uses defensives and stop/interrupts and one that doesn't is entirely too high. Why is it the healer's responsibility to make up for a group's shortcomings? Why should the healer have to fix every mistake a dps player makes?
When I'm playing a healer, I want to heal. I want to make those big saves. I don't mind throwing in dps spells in between healing, but ideally I'm reading the battlefield, predicting the damage patterns, and responding with the right heal and/or utility at the right time. I want to matter in the dungeon and coming back to DF at the end of xpac it feels like healing is a secondary role.
On the topic of increased HP pools and spiky damage/healing. I believe there are a number of factors that contribute to why healing felt very daunting in DF (at least it had been my consistent experience that we have less and less healers in dungeons). One of them is the apparent discrepancy between the expectations for healer dmg and the ability to handle spiky damage. For a healer it can be very stressful that they are expected to do damage but at the same time they need to be able to handle sudden incoming damage and keep people alive. It's a moment-to-moment decision making on how to use their resources (with a hefty price to pay if they wasted resources on dmg and a second later healing is required). It requires solid knowledge of the dungeon but also a good group to make it work well and new players, casuals and puggers were - imo - unfairly punished by this design.
I was healer for many years, rolled into tanking in shadowlands and loved to play that. Rerolled in Dragonflight S2 into healing, to have new challenges. But I feel how healing makes me mad when pugging :D That feels like the ultimate babysitter and the recent changes doesnt make me feel any better for that situation.
The other big issue is certain tanks take a lot more damage ie dks as dks naturally took more damage to self heal more so does that mean that dks wont be taken now?
Don’t listen to this other comment lol they are a doomer tank. Pls check out AutomaticJak’s recent beta testing and it shows blood DK still on top of the healing meter by like 400K HPS in M+
@@CB38096 First boss in grimbatol does 1/6th of a tanks hp unmitigatable every second for 8seconds every 45seconds and it stacks and that is on low keys. Hope you like Augmentation evokers.
Hi mad, great video. Just to clarify my POV is from a casual (2k io) tank/healer. as tank, having some iteraccion with my healer is not bad at all cuz that way you can have some gameplay differenca , if not lets just make all healers support class and dont need healing. As a healer, i like to heal, i like to do some dps and be rewarded to do some dps with my healer but not that i should be doing more dps than healing is not like what i like, maybe is because i start to heal on wotlk where tanks NEEDS healers. having diferent ways to heal each class been some what different is good for everyone. What i want is to be able to heal but not burst 2 cds to try to top up ppl.
Mistweaver main here, to me the changes so far "sound" pretty awesome. I have no idea how it will look, but I really like the reduction in self-healing for tanks. They are tanking and I am a healer, I like healing, I like being needed FOR the healing. I actually find Blood DKs so annoying to heal, not just because they ping pong and heal themselves when you pipe up a big one, but also... "I" am the healer. I like when BrM and Warriors take smooth damage so I can consider how to heal in an efficient matter. So more Tank HP and Defenses, but less Tank healing? Good. Let me do my job!
I am a reactive healer. That doesn't worry me but I also pug everything and even at 12s and 13s DPS doesn't always use their defences, stand in stupid and miss interrupts. I don't like one shot mechanics, I want to be able to at least have a chance to get a tank up before I have to worry again. I prefer healing most of the time but it is nice to be able to DPS here and there especially if we run DPS rings, or trinkets and weapons like we are now.
I think it'll boil down to a reimagining of what the mobs do in dungeons. I like your idea if you miss an interrupt, it stuns you kinda thing. For example, got a 5 pack of mobs - one does a mass slow or stun, 2 others do an aoe on the ground to avoid - pick which one you interupt. Then the other 2 are melee damage heavy. DPS will definitely interrupt the stun mob. I think a good example is some of the trash at the beginning of HOI. Some of the trash had a mass demoralizing shout, a frontal cone for DPS to avoid, and then there was a mass AOE.
I quite like the current balance of healers getting to do a bit of dps. I wouldn't mind having to do a bit more healing, but doing damage adds a bit of complexity to the role. I play resto druid and enjoy jumping in to cat / owl for dps depending on the situation. One thing that has bothered me for a while as a resto druid is the feeling that you need to keep people topped all the time in M+. It would be nice if I could throw a HoT on someone and know the HoT is going to actually bring their health up rather than just stabilise it with the risk of them getting 1shot from say 60% HP.
Interesting thought: How about player health increases after key level 12? Not damage or healing output. It would make it where one shots don't happen as much on higher key levels, but the healer has to REALLY focus on getting health up because there is so much more. I feel that could be the one piece missing to bridge the gap when it comes to higher competitive key levels and not having to feel like there needs to be so many defensives required to survive normally not deadly mechanics.
I am a big fan of this, the idea of tanks being self-reliant is relatively new. My job as a healer should be keeping everyone alive, including the tank. Obviously this will depend on the tuning but I like it in theory.
I'm optimistic about it. I think this could be good but I'm mainly worried about the dungeon tuning and that interrupting a mob will just stop it and then it recasts... very concerning.
I like what you said....approaching a trash pack you focus the tank a bit more vs straight up dps.... Because honestly? While I DO dps it has become more about how much dps can a healer do? "They are trash unless they don't pull numbers". It was making me feel like a dps support. So to me, I am interested in doing more....healing!!!
One more reason that a healer can deplete a key is the tank healig. I mean the dmg peaks are still too high and when this peak comes and you then have to heal a tank it becomes very stressful and can lead to the key being dead in pugs. A constant dmg input makes healing much more fun.
Making tanking changes this big 1 month from release of TWW just seems incredibly unwise and what they said they wanted where tanks need to rely more on healers and not get 1 shot out of nowhere is directly contradicted by reducing damage reduction abilities for tanks. If this is the change they wanted to make they should nerf Tank sustain, and buff tanks DR kit by more % reduction or more consisteny and then give tanks even more stamina. But with the changes theyve done so far we are moving into the kite meta of shadowlands again which tanks in general absolutely hate and blizzard did acknowledge that players feel this way... and yet... here we are
@CB38096 Tww releases 22 of august for people who buy the more expensive version thats just over a month to release. And keep in mind they still have alot of class and dungeon tuning left to do with some of them in a bad state. Adding the experimental tank tuning ontop of all that i cant help but to wonder if theyll really have time to bring all of this to a good state for release.
@@CB38096 These kind of changes normally comes in the Pre patch so next reset is what they would normally come in but we will see if all class changes will be in or not.
I heal on a medium high level 23-25 keys in DF season 3. It is very noticable if a tank was not as good. So i switched between tanks who needed no healing at all and tanks needed babysit healing. If there is a base line of tanks needing healing i feel that might make it more consistent across the bord.
As someone that tanked S1 of SL, the biggest issue with "kite tanking" is the huge disparity of mobility in tanks and the fact that hits in the back are fatal. One of those two things has to be fixed for kite tanking to even be considered a viable option. As a healer now, I am good with tanks taking more damage if the group damage is smoothed out. However if the solution is to make tanks just as spikey as everyone else, then it will be bad for everyone.
I think different healing profiles are fun - nothing wrong with ping pong healing in moderation on certain bosses. Halls of Infusion was a good healer dungeon: - High single target trash damage - Bosses with intense moments to heal - 3rd boss rot damage fight - Final boss where you could dps The issue to me is that there isn’t enough variation between different healing profiles generally
That can go wrong in so many ways but even so in good ways. Blizzards record for responding to balance changes in the beta is pretty good so far, even when not always understandable (Nerfing Fortified when everyone and their parents hate Tyrannical). But they really need to keep that speed up after the release when they release tww with massive overtuned dungeons. IF they do not balance this intime, they will scare away so many players which will be a problem for everybody. Tank and Heal isnt already a role which is overflowing with people.
I like the idea of consistent healing being required. I don't really like to DPS as a healer unless it is part of my healing rotation like with MW and Disc. I would like to see dungeons punish groups for failing mechanics with big losses to DPS instead of killing people. When people die the first thing they blame is the healer then the tank. If instead of players dying when they make a mistake they instead have their dps stopped or severely reduced now the reason for us failing the dungeon wasn't because "the healer let me die" or "the tank got me killed". It is easy to see on the DPS meter and the dungeon timer that player who is failing isn't doing enough damage. This will cause DPS to fix their mistakes instead of trying to blame others for their mistakes.
On the topic of tank healing. I have been mostly a healer since 2005 with occasional DPS roles for a patch here and there. I never really tanked up until Shadowlands. Tanking in DF was so fun I was mainly choosing that role in dungeons. It was fun because I felt ridiculously powerful which allowed for a carefree experience while I learned the ropes of tanking. As a Prot Paladin I had interrupts for days, strong CDs and ridiculous off-healing capabilities, being able to keep a whole group alive in a +20 on a Tyrannical boss fight even when the healer died. However, I like to compare it to the Corruption effects at the end of BfA. Fun but unsustainable. It's imbalanced, it's bad for the overall health of the community and terrible to tune encounters around. I am glad it happened and that I could experience it but I do welcome how Blizzard has been moving away from the god-mode tank design.
Tanks should never do more healing than healers. DPS should never be the primary focus of healers. Never do like FF14 where healing is almost a secondary task borderline boring and the focus is dpsing.
3 месяца назад
As a healer or dps, I prefer when healers are more like supports or facilitators in M+ and when their dps matter. There is nothing worse than hard bricking a key because of a healing check that cannot be met. Its soul crushing when you are the healer and very frustrating when you are a dps.
You said it best: *IF* they get it right, what they are setting out to do, then this will go a long way into making me as a healer feel relevant again. I've never understood the mindset of 'I don't want to heal the tank' - I heal everyone, it's my job to heal everyone. Spamming heals onto a tank though, yeah that's maybe not great.. but if they get these changes right, that shouldn't happen. Frankly it's refreshing that tanks aren't invincible anymore, which I'm guessing is why so many of them are upset rn lol
When I first started playing WoW in vanilla I was a tank and I actually enjoyed my job. The pulling, the planning route, the defensive timing, studying the mechanics, etc. But there was a limit to my power, an interdependency with my team. If they didn’t cc properly, or interrupt or if I didn’t pay attention to my healers mana or the pattern of healing, the dungeon or raid would be way more chaotic but not necessarily an outright fail/pass scenario. I absolutely hate that. These days I mostly heal and the spikes damage with random mechanics is just dumb. They won’t let me triage properly. I like dpsing as a healer but I don’t mind earning that luxury by coordinating between the party members and knowing the mechanics well. The scaling I believe is just bad. I like helping my tank survive but if that means everyone is melting rapidly then I don’t want it. I want to do my damn triage not roll a Russian roulette. 😂
What makes healing for me the most fun is to min/max my output (damage and healing when needed) and deffensive of my group. Having a gameplan for bosses when you press deff, healing cds ect. I dont wanna be a support bot doing affix and other shit.
I’ve been a healing main, resto Druid, since Burning Crusade. I hated the kite meta, not a fan of me splitting between DPS and healing. I love when I can just spam heals on my team and keep them alive while my DPS kills everything.
I like being able to do some meaningful damage as a healer. I DON'T like my damage mostly being decided by the IQ of my dps and not at all by the tank.
IMO more healing, 100% - it's a role that should be played/filled. DPS do damage, Tanks hold aggro and control the sequencing and healers provide support and keep you alive. Don't balance the general macro play style around the very high key #'s require healer DPS to time them.
Overall I'm happy with the changes. Burst damage at higher keys is rough in DF. Missing one interrupt, and you lose a dps instantly. It is why DH became the only tank worth playing past 10s to most pug groups/push groups. I don't want to see tanks feeling like they have to kite, but they should not be healing more than healers. As far as healer dps, I like the idea of being in a good place healing wise to contribute, but it feels like a mandatory thing thing currently, and that doesn't feel great. I like the direction Blizzard wants to take, I just hope they can find a healthy spot.
I want to spend the majority of my time healing and then in down time I’m down with damaging but don’t want to be a “healer” who is actually just there to DPS first and then throw some heals second in order to do higher level keys
I've been playing a healer since day one of M+ (as almost every spec out there) and I can say it's all about balance. I don't mind tanks heal as long as the DPS get smacked so I need to focus them. If tanks don't slef-heal but then the DPS get smashed as well - we are in a problem. Remember Maw of Souls and Blood DK? :D
Maybe at a certain key level they should start increasing mob attack speed and cast speed, or maybe give mobs cdr increases instead of continuing to add % dmg and health buffs. That way you aren't reaching the point where individual spells will one shot.
As a healer I wanna spend my time healing the party. Having to dps and even wear dps/tank trinkets like rageheart is stupid especially when I have to roll on them as off-spec. In a perfect world tanks should just feel like another person in the party where all 4 need equal amounts of attention. Obviously tanks would take more damage than the dps, but their defences would counteract that extra damage and would have things like earth shield or lifebloom to help with this. If you overgear a dungeon then yes, the reward is extra dps.
Would you trade DPS time as healer for more healing? 🤔
Yes. Tanks were too strong. Tanks should need healing by healers. And healer´s dps is not that important anymore anyway. You do usually maybe a fourth of the dps of a damage dealer. If you do a fifth now because of this change, nobody should care.
I would trade DPS for more GRP healing in terms of more rot dmg on GRP. But I f*** hate Tank healing
no i like not having to heal when i play with good players. obviosuly its unpopular opinion. apparently most healers wanna be healing from start to finish without breaks
Hell yes
Absolutely. I am the healer in a group. Not the dps. Not the tank. Healer. Do I mind dpsing when the time is right? Of course not. We should always be pressing buttons. I don't mind if it's "hard". I mind if I feel irrelevant in a group , because tanks can heal themselves and dps have heals and defenses collectively better than mine. I want them to have a defensive that will give me time to cast the heal they need...not negate my heal.
as a healer main its annoying to be chillin then randomly your entire group is on 5% hp in the blink of an eye.
but this is only the situation when they fail moving most of the time u can prepare very well to certain mechanics.
@@ChrisBellamy-nb3cz Yeah most of the time sure, but the amount of random 1 shots that can happen just cause of 1 mistake is wild. and annoying as a healer cause im allways the one who gets blamed for other peoples incompetence.
@@ChrisBellamy-nb3cztrue but one mistake shouldn’t be an instant death like a lot of the mechanics are.
@@LilysLofiStation I can give you a secret to not being blamed, if someone die you instantly flame them relentlessly without pause until you finish the dungeon or they quit the game. You will never get flamed if they cannot get a word in
@@TheRealCHIMShady that's such a horrible mindset lol
I'm a Holy Paladin main and I like healing. I just dps when there is downtime, but I would love to heal way more. I'm more than happy to trade dpsing to do more healing
7:30 the problem is Blizz keeps saying that they need to nerf healing to prevent spikiness but then they never address the spikiness. As a result I don't trust them to address it this time.
yea that's the point indeed, they've failed so many times they lost their credibility regarding such situations. i really hope this isn't going into another whole expansion of figuring things out for them... geez (it has great potential tho)
Totally agree, hating on the tank changes not because the stated goals are bad, but for doubt that it will be correctly balanced to work that way. And it's not like the tank tuning needs to happen in order to understand the healer tuning impact, the healing pass needs to be fully completed to see what their downtime looks like.
Enough said. I am all for big HP pools and relaxed dmg to move your creativity on CD/CC usability and managing your mana as healer. I bet however we will still be seeing one shot mechanics all over + Tanks will be now kneeling when pull big. This is.... an entire system and gameplay nerf and ultimately making game less fun and more annoying.
Fine with this change to tanks, as long as the other 4 players in the group aren't also getting 100-10 in a single uninterrupted cast. Which they currently are.
"Healers don't like having to heal a tank."
I guess I have been away for a long time.
I'm an old-school healer. I've been healing since Everquest in 1999. I enjoy healing the tank and buffing the tank. I honestly wish Blizzard would create a support slot in groups. Aug Evoker is a good start but why is it a bad thing to create more support specs for different classes?
Overall good changes. As a healer I want to heal more and spend less time doing damage. Hopefully they can transfer more damage from the group to the tank to prevent DF style spikey damage. Fortified nerf helps too
As a casual healer since the Vanilla days who recently took a break from WoW a few months back and is returning, I absolutely prefer healing more. Never liked being forced to dps as a healer or the fact that tanks were practically immune to so much damage that the healing was focused primarily to the dps or myself. Honestly, it just felt absurd.
Yes, it's going to take a bit of getting used to the new normal and, provided Blizzard are sincere in their efforts to shift the tanking philosophy, I think this will be a much welcome change. And yah, I expect some lazy tanks to create quite the fuss about having to perform their role a bit more meticulously than before. Same case for healers. More importantly, folks just need to up their game and just use defensives. It's not like we're being forced to play M+ 20 level keys; we're just being expected to know our respective classes a bit more, use defensives where necessary and not expect just the tank or the healer to pick up the overall slack of other lazy bums
I play a healer to heal and have since vanilla. I dislike how much non healing requirements have been put onto healers to push M+. Examples: Certain affixes "oh that is a healer affix". Certain healers can do crazy damage so only bring those classes, I hate that tanks out heal the healers. I do not miss the days when tanks were paper napkins but I like the direction Blizzard is trying to go, the question is can they accomplish it?
Maybe I am an oddball, but to me it's not fun competing with or get beaten by tanks in the healing meter. While I like DPS'ing on downtime, I chose the role to HEAL - Not to be a DPS, and having the most stressed healing moments be when DPS won't get out of avoidable damage (pugs) is... well not fun either. What got to me the most in DF was the getting asked to leave dungeon, respec to DPS, then later get asked to leave again to respec to Heals. If I wanted to play Spriest/boomie/Ret etc... I would have picked that spec. Now, I'm an old girl who has healed since late BC (been following this channel since you started btw) And maybe that's why, I am actually happy about these changes. I LIKE to be the one keeping my tank safe, and to utilize my spells to also keep the DPS alive. I have longed for the days where I would sometime feel like.. Heck man I just saved the day right there.
We are no longer by-standers
I have to assume this whole go out and respec into dps thing has happened to you in higher keys, like at least 19s or 20s. If it is the case, then sure, why not. I mean, the whole point of doing infinitely scaling content is to optimize everything there is to optimize and if it takes a healer to go dps then why not. I don't really see the problem here, like let people do their +30 or +55 or whatever the way they want to, it does not interfere with casuals doing their +8s for the vault. In fact, try pulling off that no healer stuff in a pugs +10 key and see what happens lol.
You said it all ! I play healer to save the day (or at list try ;) ) and being beat at healing by a tank is really frustrating to me. Ask a dps if he would enjoy being beat by the tank at DPS? 😅
You are not alone
Ma'am, I'm going to need you to stop making so much sense and reel it back a little. You are hurting Blizz employee's brains and invading their safe spaces with your "basic common sense"
What if they removed tanks from the healing meter?
It's such a dumb thing. You don't compare yourself to the tank. The tank only heals themselves.
i mean, we're in a situation right now where healers don't even swap to dealing damage out of boredom or alike, but rather that it got so far as to be EXPECTED from them, so esp. if running high keys as a healer you can't just put your mind on healing, but have to feel pressured to pump out the maximum dps possible for your spec in the meanwhile, too. and that feels really unfair and contra-intuitive role-fantasy wise. for a healer to be blamed by the group in the end of a run when the timer wasn't beaten, not because insufficient healing but because insufficient DPS, that's just mental. it really got time they moved away from this, imo. actually wished they would do it in other of their game-ips as well... -.- who t f wants to play a HEALER to end up being forced to DPS? like, wow. like, why? dafuq? it's okay as an OPTION for very decent ppl to have something to brag with, but it shouldn't become mandatory, really.
As a resto druid main, I don't see a problem. I never had an issue healing on any expansion or season ever. I think this is a good change.A healer is suppose to heal!
I like the idea of missing a kick means you deal less damage or maybe your haste could be reduced for a couple of seconds, like the incorporeal/afflicted affix. Getting oneshot because a cast goes out feels so bad in pugging situations where everyone is overlapping their kicks due to the lack of coordination, especially as a healer without a kick like priest.
Feels like too small of a mistake with such a big punishment
Tbh every healer should have a kick. Only shammy and pally have it which will probably make them the best healers for M+
@@CB38096 All healers have a kick besides priest. Although shammies kick is the best as its ranged and a short cd with a massive defensive talent tied to it now
@@CB38096 only priest is lacking a kick, and their only stop in general is a melee aoe fear
Long overdue for mechanics like this. Healers should have their own job to do even when the group is playing perfectly, and not be the only one to feel it when the group is doing mechanics poorly.
The problem now is that pug dps are so used to zug zug that it's gotta be harsh penalties for them to even notice something happened. Long stuns, getting knocked 100yd away, losing all non-mana resources... a simple damage-down won't even register unless ElitismHelper is screaming at them every time it applies.
Incorp/Afflicted tried to do this, but it ended up being the healer's job because that was an option, reinforcing the zug zugs. If they had been invisible to everyone except the 2 specific players being targeted each time, then those 2 eating huge debuffs would be a pretty clear sign they screwed up and it was their own fault.
I enjoy tank healing and I enjoy consistent rot damage. My favorite time healing was back in early Cataclsym, where it took time, thought, and effort to fill health bars but nobody was in danger of death until sub 35%. Triage was a thing. Mana management was a thing.
I greatly dislike Dragonflight style healing of mostly healing burst damage to the DPS, then needing to DPS myself. I don’t play a healer to DPS, I play to heal.
As a tank agree with everything you said bud!
@Scribbinge I played resto shaman from TBC until BFA where IMO they ruined Enhance ( offspec ). Since then im a tank, I remember the days of Spirit and mana-Management it was my favorite part of playing a healer haha. Id definetly re-roll healer if that came back in any way XD
Been healing/tanking since vanilla. Honestly, I really like the changes. It felt shitty having tanks be gods while we were wimps. It also gave a problem with how blizz designed tank damage. It was FAR too spikey during dangerous moments. Hopefully now it'll be a bit more balanced where they can't survive without me, but also I don't have to babysit them. Ideally as a healer, I want everyone to need me so they don't die (just like how everyone needs to tank so we don't die), but I also don't want to have to feel like I'm babysitting people or dealing with super spikey damage. I'm keen to give it a go in S1 TWW.
worst case (if not usual case?!) this is going to be fiddled with till s3 or s4, which seems to be the balancing and game-fixing sweet spot to be giving gos now -.- truth be told: for many players the game won't feel fair or fixed up to this point and will feel stale afterwards in w/e might be "the last" season... has been this way for at least 2 x-packs now. :/
If what you want happens there wil be less tanks around.
@@havtor007 how do you come to that conclusion? it's the old default pretty much. and there were tanks back then too, in a similar usual shortage the likes of today... not to mention that there were tanks who likewise quit as the self-healing sh!t became a thing.
@@Melethrion the Fun aspect of tanking is being able to learn to deal with things and not need a healer.
For tank players being able to survive is what makes tanking fun.
@@havtor007 always has been, except the "not need a healer" part. which is the part making the game weird. which is why many healers and devs long to counteract that. the challenge stays. to be fair it even gets more interesting imo and would even underline your own argument there. the risk and excitement are even bigger when you can't be sure to take whatever comes because you just self-heal it away anyway. it makes good movement, positioning and use of mechanics even more important. you can still show off that way as tank, if not even better. like in BT, when you already were king not having to practice illidan much. before self-healing got out of hand, the challenge has been delivered by other aspects of the game. like versatile and challenging encounter design that kept every role fantasy in mind.
Im ok with this. I remember getting complemented for my healing back in cata. Now people get complements for their dps in their healer spect
They don’t get less compliments for their healing though. We went from “get praised for healing properly” to “get praised for healing properly or pulling high dps in tough keys”
the problem is being pressured to do both imo.
@@Melethrion you’re only pressured to do both when not dps’ing becomes a problem, meaning in higher keys often.
But when you get to higher keys, all roles are “pressured” to deliver more. You expect certain mechanics, certain setups of pulls etc from dps and tank players as well. It’s just the overall expectation bar that gets higher.
@@MsPagman ye but the wide impression of it is that for healers it's exponentially so. it's just circumstencial af to have to swap between "modes" so to say instead of staying in one, obv. logically so one would assume.
@@Melethrion but you don’t have to “swap” between modes as you say.. I would argue that the higher the difficulty the better you have to be at making judgement calls on what button to press, as simple as that.
Let’s not act like pressing a dps button on a Druid or evoker is a complicated thing to do.
Also one thing we’re not talking about at all is the weight of dps trinkets in an overall dps. Pressing sunfire as Druid is one global, and will allow your trinkets to proc. Those two things are the biggest source of dps you would do.
This is going to make m+ only have 2 dps spots. Aug evokers gonna be “mandatory” again.
As a tank i enjoy knowing most of my survival is my own skill not the healers
The perfect indicator of tank healing balance is « is it worth it to put beacon of light and lifebloom on tank or not ? » if yes then tank healing is in nice place, if no tanks are too much self reliant
I wish they nerfed or maybe even removed dps defensive cooldowns, and balanced around that. Because the braindead dps meme is actually true, so many dps just think smashing buttons for damage is all they should do. Take damage? Why should I care, that is for the healer to fix.
Also interrupt spells really should change from doing damage, to inflicting some kind of dps debuff. Maybe stun, maybe cause % damage debuff for X seconds. If the consequence of interrupt failure was put on the 3 dps players instead of the 1 healer it would be much more fair, and maybe dps would realise the importance of stops when their dps meter is being punished.
I’m a healer because I want to heal. I hate that healers have moved to so much DPS. If I wanted to do damage I would play DPS. I shouldn’t have to DPS to heal my team. I should only be DPSing when everyone is topped off.
What about players who push high keys where every bit of dps matters to time them? What about healers who rely on dps to heal (ancestral guidance etc)?
No matter what they do to tuning, tanks, healers.. you will still see certain type of players or content need and/or love to dps
I like having moments to dps, not in the sweaty type of way, but more like 'there's little damage coming through, I can relax for a moment and prep for the next damage event' type of dps. Having to constantly sweat healing only bring back memories of really bad pugs.
Lazy take
@@MsPagman still, this shouldn't be necessary up to and including the point of reaching maximum weekly vault. because that's a thing everyone wants to be aiming at. which in df settles with m+20 if i'm not mistaken (didn't play s4). after that, get the fancy tactics going, idc, it's more sports than anything else from this point on anyway.
@@Melethrion but it’s not? It’s definitely not necessary for healers to dps to time keys to get to full vaults. Nowhere near that, not even close.
One of my biggest concerns is mana management. With healers having to focus on healing more, will we be able to maintain a good level of mana? Personally, I think the Dev Team should bring back Spirit to help with mana management.
Nice idea in theory, but the pace of the game is too fast for that mechanic to work properly now.
Spirit wasnt good for the game imo. Better just to tune each healers passive and active regen properly. Gear is important enough as is
tbh i think the idea of the role that takes the most damage being entirely ignored by the role that is supposed undo the act of taking damage is a design flaw. Tanks will complain cause they are losing their own power, which is valid i guess. But having a tank be able to finish a boss regardless of whether the rest of their party is even alive seems like a little too much power.
This was a part of the problem, but at most about 20% of the issue. The defensive bloat and aug are much bigger issues, as is an encounter design team that seems to ignore the rest of the team. This is an issue that should have been tackled at the beginning of alpha, not a week before prepatch.
Excited to focus on healing instead of being a dps
Thanks for this great video and your thoughts!
Personally, I enjoy doing a little DPS when healing is not required, but I enjoy healing itself more; using my main abilities to heal effectively, triage etc.
I enjoy healing tanks, being a part of a group, having party health being a bit more of a consideration for the whole group.
It's a fine balance, I think... come down to balance.
We don't want tanking to feel less fun, a lot of the power fantasy for tanks is feeling op & unstoppable I feel.
I wouldn't want them to feel weighed down, but a leader of the group, and it will be nice to be needed a little to keep the tank alive :)
Can't wait for yet another reason a key depletes due to bad healers. 90% of healers in DF didn't do more than 10k dps overall (while good healers were doing 60k+ and great healers were doing 120k+ all while still healing the group just as much). Now, they will actually have to heal even more and will still fail. I can't tell you how many times I've wiped in hoi because the healer couldnt meet the hps check for 3rd boss, or the dragons on fort weeks, or the first boss in ruby life pools or lightning boss in NO. I think the bigger issue is that even the most casual of player outgears the content that should be at their skill level. Healers and tanks get 525iL but are at a +6 skill level. This results in inflated m+ ratings and the incorrect perception that they are better than they actually are. Of course a tank doesnt feel like they need healing when they are overgeared, and yet we've all still had pug healers that have been absolutely terrible and have bricked keys because they couldn't make the healing checks despite being overgeared and adequate IO score.
This doesn't even get into the fact that the community has somehow gaslit themselves into thinking that tanks are unkillable and don't require healing. At mid level keys and when bigger pulls are needed, or pulls that have tank busters like in AA, you definitely had to heal the tank. As a tank main with healer alts that gets to around 3.4k each season, I have literally never had the issue of the tank being unkillable or groups that didn't need a healer. I have had more times than I could count though of healers that don't DPS at all but still can't meet healer checks. I have had instances where tanks pull and don't pop defensives and fall over (like prot pallies that refuse to stand in consecration). I think this all is a perception issue and frankly a skill issue. In my perfect world, people would be geared based on their skill so you didn't get hyper inflated healers/tanks with massive egos that still can't press their buttons correctly but time keys because they are massively overgeared for the content until they hit a wall and brick peoples runs.
These changes are just incentivizing me to leave keys early (which I never do) when healers can't meet checks instead of wasting my time.
I think having tanks that can solo dungeons on their own without healers is bad, then it defeats the purpose of the healer. I think people forgot what the actual role of a healer is, it's to offer healing support to all party members, but mostly to the tank which is taking the brute of the damage. It forces tanks to make far more responsible choices when running dungeons. Everyone has a role, and those roles should have consequences, and I think tanks have become a role with almost no responsibility other than pulling as much as possible, doing more DPS than the DPS, and having no consequences for it because you have more self-healing than what the healer even provides. Bring back consequences for tanks, give back the roles of healing to the healers, and give back the role of DPS to the DPS. Tanks don't learn defensives anymore, because they don't focus on the defensive side of their class anymore because there is no risk to pulling half the dungeon when they have more self-healing than what the healer even provides.
As a tank and healer myself - this is a big mistake - no one asked for it - no one was saying nerf tanks - they devoted time to something no one wanted when they should be fixing stuff people been asking for .. for YEARS - again their making changes due to what the top 1% are doing
I was calling for tank nerfs especially blood Dk 😌
@@CB38096 why bdk nerf, cus your bad and dont know how to heal them? the most easy tank in the game to heal (ignore them unless blue bar is empty)
I'm 100% tank. This absolutely killed the role for me. I have too much to worry about. Surviving was the one thing I never needed to worry about, until now...
Finding a healer in low level keys will be impossible. I'm not going to wait 40 minutes with DPS for a hero to arrive.
I'll tank raids with my guild, that's it. I'll do Delves and let M+ rot. It's dead to me.
😂😂😂 tank doomerism is so funny. All the tanks that are actually testing beta are saying the nerfs aren’t that bad
@@CB38096 I'm in beta. It's bad for BDK. Not so bad for prot warrior.
@@xiejun5680 If the tank is never worried about dying, then clearly the tank is overpowered.
baby take
Perfect healing world for me is primarily healing from tanks and only healing dps if their positioning was bad or predictable rot damage. I think they need to reduce interrupts and stops required along with this change. No more ping pong!
Greatly increase mobs HP so the difficultly goes on the dps to beat the timer.
As a healer I HATE the gameplay in DF. Currently I play R. Shaman, R. Druid, H. Priest and MW Monk. I love pugging lower keys because I'm scrambling to constantly heal (including tanks) due to players learning. I like focusing on healing and doing what my role is supposed to do. I loathe the higher keys because I have nothing to do but dps. If I wanted to be a dps I would play a dps. The only thing I feel useful for in high end keys are dispels and clarification for affixes. That's pathetic. If TWW has me healing then good.
3rd boss halls was cool the only issue was some healers actually used mana in dflight while some really didn't (rdruid).
Ive been playing since vanilla and healed since TBC, and the worst part for me as healer, has been the DPS race as healer and getting beaten by tanks on healing. It makes no sence for me with this. Tanks should mitigate damage, not heal it (death knights might be the joker here) But in general terms, tanks should have mitigation, and it should scale better with gear/stats, and they should have cooldowns for it, some ofc better for physical , some for magical. That being said, its just my opinion. I like healing, but i dont want to compete with tanks about it. This is a 5 man job, tanks holding aggro, DPS killing, cc, interrupt ect, and healers should keep EVERYONE alive.
I just want to feel like my healing matters where it counts.
The WoW playerbase never overreacts!
Healing is always what I have enjoyed, I don't think a healer should be dps'ng. If I wanted to dps I would play a dps spec.
My job as a healer is to heal, not dps. I don't expect dps and tanks to do anything but their own jobs. If I wanted to dps, I'd roll a dps class.
What do you do when there's nothing to heal? There's 5-10 seconds until the next boss mechanic and everyone is full life.
Or in your ideal gameplay loop there is always healing to do? I suppose if there's more tank healing to do then that's good for less downtime(e.g. dps)
@@marcfleuren7691 All healers play with a second monitor with a video. This is a well-known phenomenon.
👌🏻👌🏻
Have fun in classic
I expect everyone to use everything in their repertoire.
You wanna go afk while there is nothing/little to heal?
I understand a bit less focus on damage but I have NO understanding for the "ME HEAL ME NO DMG".
Honestly I like the way healing is right now in DF, tho I'm only at a +10ish level of play. I like the freedom of being able to do mechanics, dps, stops etc. and top off the group quickly.
@@Melethrion +10 is not halfway lol it is the cap for gear and rewards.
@@PapaSnurp my apologies. i didn't play s4 and so just went with the default up to the point. that levers out my argument, ofc. have to add that i can even relate pretty much. there's been a season i just went with the necessities, played alts quite a lot and felt less stressed playing.
As a healer I'm actually excited for these changes. If they get the balancing right - even if it might take some iterations. Also earlier days of wow crossed my mind, where tanks needed healing and that did not take away from the tank role and experience. Wow M+ is complex, there are endless interactions so buffs and nerfs will often affect not only the role and the class they are directed at. So of course there are many nuances to these changes and we might be about to go through some optimizable iterations of the role we love to play. BUT here are actual changes being made, a cummunity being listened to and the over all power of the dungeon group seems to be redistributed. I highly aprove of that. For my part I wanna see how all of this plays out and at this point i see no reason to nag and reject it all.
I like your positive attitude and I see it quite the same way. But at the same time I wonder if this is real hope or just a kind of cognitive dissonance and repression of things... like, maybe we're just prime examples of the worst case of copism... guess we'll see soon enough, huh.
@@Melethrion Your comment made me laugh out loud because i realized you might be right. To be fair it would have been smarter to introduce these changes earlier in beta. Guess i'm just hoping to have some sort of change that makes being a healer feel powerful and relevant. You could argue that healers are powerful and relevant, at one point it just stopped feeling like they are. At least to me.
@@schmodri well, they are, but i as well think that the fact that 1/5 of the group has been taken out of their focus and that pro players are now able to skip getting a healer in entirely has lost healers some of their role fantasy. also, imo they're getting pressured too much with the "obligation" (even if just pushed by other players and not always rightfully so) to deal damage and other additional and partially movement heavy mechanics bc dps is just too important to neglect... also having to keep a o-s-button rotation up for the most time can't be very appealing. tank self-heal has clearly gotten kind of out of hands nowadays and isn't contributing to the original vision of having that interdependent trinity (tank-heal-dps). I mean, you don't just go and start sharpening forks to the point where you can do without knives when eating because forks do the job just as well or even better. Something like that 😅
@@schmodri also, yes, from a balancing point of view it would've been smarter to have the changes hit earlier in beta - but is it as well from an economical point of view? it would've risked having less ppl spend extra cash on early access etc.
What heal is the best for hps in m+ so far for tww?
I dont like this change , thats a reason to nop play heal for me as I dont enjoy it
I think the goal of having healers be more involved with healing and keeping ppl alive is great, but for that I'd argue they still have to remove off-heals and def cds of healers and dps specs as well as doing a complete overhaul of dmg profiles.
HOWEVER...I think the biggest issue for tanks is that selfsustainability in bigger and bigger pulls is the only real measure for improvement. The fear with these changes now is that the only way to pull bigger is relying on your healer to keep you up (I can play cata for that, thank you very much) or kite (awful for everybody involved). With these changes you also won't want your tank to optimise for damage and use that as the metric of skillexpression...so what is left there? Def cd-management in form of def-checks? We had that in legion with abilities that simply trucked you if you didnt press your AM at the right time and was scrapped after Legion alltogether being not well received.
So the initial reaction is pretty much the fear of becoming a punching bag for Mobs without a fun and engaging gameplay mechanic for the tank-role
I think the biggest issue is the lack of understanding on Blizzard's end. As a tank main, some tanks like brew and prot warrior feel basically the same, while DK and prot pal feel worse. Unless they "tune" things well, Augvoker will again, be mandatory for keys, which really sucks.
I don't like healing tanks, I played Cata and it was the most annoying thing to do.
Great video and a some nice perspectives! Personally I like to heal as much as i can and prefer healing over damage. If that means that healer need to heal the tank more and dont have time for doing damage I'm all for it. But i also think there's a downside to relying so heavily on the healer. We have different skill levels among players and timing a M+ should be a group effort and not a make or brake depending on the healers skill level.
Therefore if blizzard wants to introduce this type of healing they need to introduce something extra. We already have the Fortified or Tyranical weeks maybe they should add a buff that reduces the damage taken to the tank depending on the key you do. So the higher the key the less damage reduction there is and on a certain key no damage reduction.
This will give the ''new'' ''learning'' players the chance to learn everything about the healing spec without the stress moments.
So overal i like the idea of giving more power to the healers but only if they make sure that every level of skill can have fun and grow.
This is a good change. Healer should heal every one period. Tried beta a bit i felt crazy with amount of healing which i had to do tho.
I look forward to healing all 5 party members again. What I’m terrified about is doing that with the insane burst damage and number of interrupts within the new dungeons. Burst damage and damage caused by a missed interrupt must be nerfed
Yeah, I miss feeling like a team with my tank. Like they need me like I need them. So, sure, if-- and only if --Blizzard can hit their stated goals (tanks still mostly self-sufficient, no kite meta, steady incoming damage), I'm all for it.
But, it can't all be player balancing. They also need to be better about designing encounters so that the damage is steady and less spiky. And ideally less mechanics bloat making pugs a nightmare on the two specs that still don't have an interrupt.
Heals need to heal, dps toons do the damage. tanks take the dmg.
In my opinion, healers probably won't mind this change but tanks will probably hate it. I personally main tank & healer in m+ and this change definitely discourages me from wanting to tank. Tanks are already pretty scarce, my fear is that this type of approach nerfing tanks autonomy is going to make them even more scarce. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I don't like wack-a-mole healing, however I agree with you and Quazii that the defensives really need to be looked at along with Aug. Love the suggestion that missing an interrupt causes a stun or a haste debuff because that teaches folks real quick what they need to interrupt. Having a huge amount of damage as a result, especially in lower end groups, tends to get blamed on the healer as not being able to keep up.
I love these changes as tank now i can blame the healers when i die. Its going to be great lol
Beta healing feels very hard. I’m concerned about the direction they are going. Damage incoming is still very high.
I was 3.3k in S3 and 3k in S4. I’ve got healing footage on my channel if you’re interested in my beta experience healing.
I love these changes!!
Going to be so good going back to healing and balancing between keeping the tank alive and saving the DPS that engaged too soon or simply over agroes.
Love the idea of changing some stops into a stun of something instead of flat 1 shot damage.
if you wanna "go back" to that, classic's there. They won't achieve any of that with these stupid changes without reworking every single tank one by one.
@@RiptorrZ why would I play classic when it seems blizzard is going in what i THink the right direction is. and I did play Vanilla when it was called wow.
You gave an example about 2 pugs in the same key level and dungeon. I am an ex-mythic raider who plays solo/pug now. As much as failures can be attributed to skill issues in pugs, another (imo even bigger) problem in pug groups is coordination.
I witnessed countless times that we use 3-4 interrupts on the same cast, run out rupts, and a deadly cast goes off.
Blizzard will never get dungeon balance right for the majority (pugs), if they look at coordinated groups and aim to come up with something that challenges them.
Instead, they should let the infinite scaling deal with presenting a challenge for them and focus on coming up things that can meaningfully challenge pug m+ groups, imo.
About defensives and defensive bloat with the higher and higher damage that results from it: If Blizzard is currently assuming people will use defensives and tunes accordingly, what would happen if they just... didn't, tuning the base Mythic dungeon experience around nobody playing properly while increasing key level scaling a bit, aiming at a situation, where a +11 where people barely use their defensives is doable but hard? After all, everything below +12 plays with the casual affixes, make it a casual experience. And then, if you want to be challenged, you can go into +12s and up, where the scaling is ramped up a little bit more and quickly forces you to play your defensives better to live. The M+ casuals/raiders who just want their hero track stuff and myth track vault can just have a chill time, while the M+ enjoyers who want to push themselves and see how far they can go... can do that once they move past +12s. Sure, their survivability will get stretched to the limit as they move up, moving from a +14 to a +15 might be a bit jarring, but hey, they opted for that by moving past +11 in the first place.
I agree that the key scaling should determine if a player needs to be using defensive, interrupts, stops etc. Their baseline tuning should assume that nobody is doing the right thing. Eventually, scaling will overcome that playstyle and players will be required to press their buttons.
I agree with many, the spiky healing is the problem, on higher keys you can’t even save you team members as it’s one shots that kills
Yeah, having to keep everyone at 100% because one attack takes 90% of their health is garbage gameplay.
I hate targeted one shots. I love mechanical one shots. I do very much like the idea that all of the interruptable/stunable one shot mechanics gets changed to something that just sucks for the player (the damage decrease is great, would make dps care more). Thank you for the video! I enjoy the thought experiments you create with them!
I wish that all healers had some sort of enhancement playstyle where we could enhance DPS while also focusing on healing. I feel like that would be a much better and rewarding experience for everyone. It would allow the healer to focus on supporting the group while also putting the dps focus back on the dps. I would much rather have that type of gameplay and be able to contribute to dps in that manor VS doing the having to do the dps myself (depending on the specialization that I am playing). It might also help with the utility situation in raids and help make some classes more viable.
I like those changes in philosophy. Tank healing can be very fun and rewarding. I remember having blast with rdruid in shadowlands, with verdant infusion build trying to roll one cenarius ward as long as possible with all other hots. I played with undergeared Brewmaster so he was my main priority. It was a great feeling that I couldn't replicate ever since. I would gladly get it back. Long sustained tank healing is a challenge I would welcome sometimes.
The delta between a group that uses defensives and stop/interrupts and one that doesn't is entirely too high. Why is it the healer's responsibility to make up for a group's shortcomings? Why should the healer have to fix every mistake a dps player makes?
When I'm playing a healer, I want to heal. I want to make those big saves. I don't mind throwing in dps spells in between healing, but ideally I'm reading the battlefield, predicting the damage patterns, and responding with the right heal and/or utility at the right time. I want to matter in the dungeon and coming back to DF at the end of xpac it feels like healing is a secondary role.
On the topic of increased HP pools and spiky damage/healing.
I believe there are a number of factors that contribute to why healing felt very daunting in DF (at least it had been my consistent experience that we have less and less healers in dungeons).
One of them is the apparent discrepancy between the expectations for healer dmg and the ability to handle spiky damage. For a healer it can be very stressful that they are expected to do damage but at the same time they need to be able to handle sudden incoming damage and keep people alive. It's a moment-to-moment decision making on how to use their resources (with a hefty price to pay if they wasted resources on dmg and a second later healing is required).
It requires solid knowledge of the dungeon but also a good group to make it work well and new players, casuals and puggers were - imo - unfairly punished by this design.
I was healer for many years, rolled into tanking in shadowlands and loved to play that.
Rerolled in Dragonflight S2 into healing, to have new challenges. But I feel how healing makes me mad when pugging :D
That feels like the ultimate babysitter and the recent changes doesnt make me feel any better for that situation.
The other big issue is certain tanks take a lot more damage ie dks as dks naturally took more damage to self heal more so does that mean that dks wont be taken now?
Blood Dk is a dead spec now. It'd legit F tier. Prot Warriors are looking good though.
Don’t listen to this other comment lol they are a doomer tank. Pls check out AutomaticJak’s recent beta testing and it shows blood DK still on top of the healing meter by like 400K HPS in M+
@@CB38096 First boss in grimbatol does 1/6th of a tanks hp unmitigatable every second for 8seconds every 45seconds and it stacks and that is on low keys.
Hope you like Augmentation evokers.
@@CB38096 ya but let’s see how high m+ goes for blood lmao
Hi mad, great video. Just to clarify my POV is from a casual (2k io) tank/healer. as tank, having some iteraccion with my healer is not bad at all cuz that way you can have some gameplay differenca , if not lets just make all healers support class and dont need healing. As a healer, i like to heal, i like to do some dps and be rewarded to do some dps with my healer but not that i should be doing more dps than healing is not like what i like, maybe is because i start to heal on wotlk where tanks NEEDS healers. having diferent ways to heal each class been some what different is good for everyone. What i want is to be able to heal but not burst 2 cds to try to top up ppl.
Mistweaver main here, to me the changes so far "sound" pretty awesome. I have no idea how it will look, but I really like the reduction in self-healing for tanks. They are tanking and I am a healer, I like healing, I like being needed FOR the healing. I actually find Blood DKs so annoying to heal, not just because they ping pong and heal themselves when you pipe up a big one, but also... "I" am the healer. I like when BrM and Warriors take smooth damage so I can consider how to heal in an efficient matter.
So more Tank HP and Defenses, but less Tank healing? Good. Let me do my job!
I am a reactive healer. That doesn't worry me but I also pug everything and even at 12s and 13s DPS doesn't always use their defences, stand in stupid and miss interrupts.
I don't like one shot mechanics, I want to be able to at least have a chance to get a tank up before I have to worry again. I prefer healing most of the time but it is nice to be able to DPS here and there especially if we run DPS rings, or trinkets and weapons like we are now.
I think it'll boil down to a reimagining of what the mobs do in dungeons. I like your idea if you miss an interrupt, it stuns you kinda thing.
For example, got a 5 pack of mobs - one does a mass slow or stun, 2 others do an aoe on the ground to avoid - pick which one you interupt. Then the other 2 are melee damage heavy. DPS will definitely interrupt the stun mob.
I think a good example is some of the trash at the beginning of HOI. Some of the trash had a mass demoralizing shout, a frontal cone for DPS to avoid, and then there was a mass AOE.
I quite like the current balance of healers getting to do a bit of dps. I wouldn't mind having to do a bit more healing, but doing damage adds a bit of complexity to the role. I play resto druid and enjoy jumping in to cat / owl for dps depending on the situation.
One thing that has bothered me for a while as a resto druid is the feeling that you need to keep people topped all the time in M+. It would be nice if I could throw a HoT on someone and know the HoT is going to actually bring their health up rather than just stabilise it with the risk of them getting 1shot from say 60% HP.
Interesting thought: How about player health increases after key level 12? Not damage or healing output. It would make it where one shots don't happen as much on higher key levels, but the healer has to REALLY focus on getting health up because there is so much more. I feel that could be the one piece missing to bridge the gap when it comes to higher competitive key levels and not having to feel like there needs to be so many defensives required to survive normally not deadly mechanics.
I am a big fan of this, the idea of tanks being self-reliant is relatively new. My job as a healer should be keeping everyone alive, including the tank. Obviously this will depend on the tuning but I like it in theory.
I'm optimistic about it. I think this could be good but I'm mainly worried about the dungeon tuning and that interrupting a mob will just stop it and then it recasts... very concerning.
I like what you said....approaching a trash pack you focus the tank a bit more vs straight up dps.... Because honestly? While I DO dps it has become more about how much dps can a healer do? "They are trash unless they don't pull numbers". It was making me feel like a dps support. So to me, I am interested in doing more....healing!!!
One more reason that a healer can deplete a key is the tank healig. I mean the dmg peaks are still too high and when this peak comes and you then have to heal a tank it becomes very stressful and can lead to the key being dead in pugs. A constant dmg input makes healing much more fun.
Making tanking changes this big 1 month from release of TWW just seems incredibly unwise and what they said they wanted where tanks need to rely more on healers and not get 1 shot out of nowhere is directly contradicted by reducing damage reduction abilities for tanks. If this is the change they wanted to make they should nerf Tank sustain, and buff tanks DR kit by more % reduction or more consisteny and then give tanks even more stamina.
But with the changes theyve done so far we are moving into the kite meta of shadowlands again which tanks in general absolutely hate and blizzard did acknowledge that players feel this way... and yet... here we are
Isn’t it like 6 or 7 weeks until season 1 starts?
@CB38096
Tww releases 22 of august for people who buy the more expensive version thats just over a month to release.
And keep in mind they still have alot of class and dungeon tuning left to do with some of them in a bad state.
Adding the experimental tank tuning ontop of all that i cant help but to wonder if theyll really have time to bring all of this to a good state for release.
@@CB38096 These kind of changes normally comes in the Pre patch so next reset is what they would normally come in but we will see if all class changes will be in or not.
I heal on a medium high level 23-25 keys in DF season 3. It is very noticable if a tank was not as good. So i switched between tanks who needed no healing at all and tanks needed babysit healing. If there is a base line of tanks needing healing i feel that might make it more consistent across the bord.
As someone that tanked S1 of SL, the biggest issue with "kite tanking" is the huge disparity of mobility in tanks and the fact that hits in the back are fatal. One of those two things has to be fixed for kite tanking to even be considered a viable option. As a healer now, I am good with tanks taking more damage if the group damage is smoothed out. However if the solution is to make tanks just as spikey as everyone else, then it will be bad for everyone.
I think different healing profiles are fun - nothing wrong with ping pong healing in moderation on certain bosses.
Halls of Infusion was a good healer dungeon:
- High single target trash damage
- Bosses with intense moments to heal
- 3rd boss rot damage fight
- Final boss where you could dps
The issue to me is that there isn’t enough variation between different healing profiles generally
That can go wrong in so many ways but even so in good ways. Blizzards record for responding to balance changes in the beta is pretty good so far, even when not always understandable (Nerfing Fortified when everyone and their parents hate Tyrannical). But they really need to keep that speed up after the release when they release tww with massive overtuned dungeons. IF they do not balance this intime, they will scare away so many players which will be a problem for everybody. Tank and Heal isnt already a role which is overflowing with people.
I like the idea of consistent healing being required. I don't really like to DPS as a healer unless it is part of my healing rotation like with MW and Disc. I would like to see dungeons punish groups for failing mechanics with big losses to DPS instead of killing people. When people die the first thing they blame is the healer then the tank. If instead of players dying when they make a mistake they instead have their dps stopped or severely reduced now the reason for us failing the dungeon wasn't because "the healer let me die" or "the tank got me killed". It is easy to see on the DPS meter and the dungeon timer that player who is failing isn't doing enough damage. This will cause DPS to fix their mistakes instead of trying to blame others for their mistakes.
On the topic of tank healing.
I have been mostly a healer since 2005 with occasional DPS roles for a patch here and there. I never really tanked up until Shadowlands.
Tanking in DF was so fun I was mainly choosing that role in dungeons. It was fun because I felt ridiculously powerful which allowed for a carefree experience while I learned the ropes of tanking. As a Prot Paladin I had interrupts for days, strong CDs and ridiculous off-healing capabilities, being able to keep a whole group alive in a +20 on a Tyrannical boss fight even when the healer died.
However, I like to compare it to the Corruption effects at the end of BfA. Fun but unsustainable.
It's imbalanced, it's bad for the overall health of the community and terrible to tune encounters around.
I am glad it happened and that I could experience it but I do welcome how Blizzard has been moving away from the god-mode tank design.
Tanks should never do more healing than healers. DPS should never be the primary focus of healers. Never do like FF14 where healing is almost a secondary task borderline boring and the focus is dpsing.
As a healer or dps, I prefer when healers are more like supports or facilitators in M+ and when their dps matter. There is nothing worse than hard bricking a key because of a healing check that cannot be met. Its soul crushing when you are the healer and very frustrating when you are a dps.
You said it best: *IF* they get it right, what they are setting out to do, then this will go a long way into making me as a healer feel relevant again. I've never understood the mindset of 'I don't want to heal the tank' - I heal everyone, it's my job to heal everyone. Spamming heals onto a tank though, yeah that's maybe not great.. but if they get these changes right, that shouldn't happen. Frankly it's refreshing that tanks aren't invincible anymore, which I'm guessing is why so many of them are upset rn lol
When I first started playing WoW in vanilla I was a tank and I actually enjoyed my job. The pulling, the planning route, the defensive timing, studying the mechanics, etc. But there was a limit to my power, an interdependency with my team. If they didn’t cc properly, or interrupt or if I didn’t pay attention to my healers mana or the pattern of healing, the dungeon or raid would be way more chaotic but not necessarily an outright fail/pass scenario. I absolutely hate that. These days I mostly heal and the spikes damage with random mechanics is just dumb. They won’t let me triage properly. I like dpsing as a healer but I don’t mind earning that luxury by coordinating between the party members and knowing the mechanics well. The scaling I believe is just bad. I like helping my tank survive but if that means everyone is melting rapidly then I don’t want it. I want to do my damn triage not roll a Russian roulette. 😂
What makes healing for me the most fun is to min/max my output (damage and healing when needed) and deffensive of my group. Having a gameplan for bosses when you press deff, healing cds ect. I dont wanna be a support bot doing affix and other shit.
I’ve been a healing main, resto Druid, since Burning Crusade. I hated the kite meta, not a fan of me splitting between DPS and healing. I love when I can just spam heals on my team and keep them alive while my DPS kills everything.
I like being able to do some meaningful damage as a healer. I DON'T like my damage mostly being decided by the IQ of my dps and not at all by the tank.
IMO more healing, 100% - it's a role that should be played/filled. DPS do damage, Tanks hold aggro and control the sequencing and healers provide support and keep you alive. Don't balance the general macro play style around the very high key #'s require healer DPS to time them.
Overall I'm happy with the changes. Burst damage at higher keys is rough in DF. Missing one interrupt, and you lose a dps instantly. It is why DH became the only tank worth playing past 10s to most pug groups/push groups. I don't want to see tanks feeling like they have to kite, but they should not be healing more than healers. As far as healer dps, I like the idea of being in a good place healing wise to contribute, but it feels like a mandatory thing thing currently, and that doesn't feel great. I like the direction Blizzard wants to take, I just hope they can find a healthy spot.
I want to spend the majority of my time healing and then in down time I’m down with damaging but don’t want to be a “healer” who is actually just there to DPS first and then throw some heals second in order to do higher level keys
I've been playing a healer since day one of M+ (as almost every spec out there) and I can say it's all about balance. I don't mind tanks heal as long as the DPS get smacked so I need to focus them. If tanks don't slef-heal but then the DPS get smashed as well - we are in a problem. Remember Maw of Souls and Blood DK? :D
Maybe at a certain key level they should start increasing mob attack speed and cast speed, or maybe give mobs cdr increases instead of continuing to add % dmg and health buffs. That way you aren't reaching the point where individual spells will one shot.
As a healer I wanna spend my time healing the party. Having to dps and even wear dps/tank trinkets like rageheart is stupid especially when I have to roll on them as off-spec. In a perfect world tanks should just feel like another person in the party where all 4 need equal amounts of attention. Obviously tanks would take more damage than the dps, but their defences would counteract that extra damage and would have things like earth shield or lifebloom to help with this. If you overgear a dungeon then yes, the reward is extra dps.
Tanks SHOULD need healers. It’s stupid that they can pull five packs and never drop below 90% hp.
The best Heal performents I had in Shadowlands the input from the adds was well balanced and some of the bosses were challenging