I've been following TOH since the early 80's. I'm always a skeptic, but in the end will say that Richard Tretheway is the man! Thumbs up to some of the OG's, and long live TOH! :)
You see this in Germany all the time. They usually have a small efficient water heater underneath the sink. Here in Romania, you have the outlets just outside the bathroom for electric razors, hair dryers etc. If you install anything inside the bathroom, an electrician has to bring wires inside somehow. Pain in the ass. Debatable...
Maybe it was that it " just appears" like magic. I've never seen an outlet under a bath sink unless added later. If your going to put a pump in, your going to have to add electricity with ground fault circuitry. Modern kitchen sinks are more likely to have power for garbage disposal and dishwasher.
He also didn't explain it. He did not explain that the pump has to have more pressure then the static water pressure of the home and the pump tries to push the water backwards through the main water line for the house. Basically pushing the water back to the city. My question is, would it flow the water meter backwards as it did it?
@@letsnotmakethispersonal6021 ..here's my guess....many homes have a backflow preventer or check valve that won't allow water that is "Already" in the home system....to be pushed back out into the city system. So....when the under-sink pump comes on, it has to have enough pressure to overcome the pressure in the home system, and it then pushes hot water from the hot water line.....into the cold water line. Remember.....if you are "taking" hot water from the piping ( and from the hot water heater, part of your home "System" inventory)...you have "room" to re-introduce that same amount of water back into your home system, but now it's being re-introduced back into the cold water section of the "system". Both hot and cold sections are part of the same system, and can flow into (and out of) the "System"...meaning all the house piping connected to the hot water heater....so there is room to put the same amount of water back into the cold water line....that you "took out of" the hot water line.
This system works great in my home. I’m on a well and have a septic system. I don’t waste water my water by putting it into my septic system. Surviving the California drought✌🏻
Ive learned about this pump recently as a plumber, they have versions that the pump that needs power sits atop a water heater tank and you put a small device that slowly lets water into the cold side to keep water flow. The other kind of circulating pump works like this. You find the furthest fixture and run a second hot water pipe from it that ties back into the heater The pump then constantly pumps water thru that line and everything gets hot water faster. As a plumber i would recomend useing a tank water heater with the kind of pump i explaines first. Tankless water heaters req alot more power than a tank and if its gas than alot more btu of gas than a tank heater. The whole point of a tankless is to not be running all the time in the first place as it takes twice the energy of what a water heater with a tank would use to heat the water. Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions.
I agree, I hope my tankless install with a learning smart circ pump will save me energy over all (not using water from 730 am to 6pm) Thinking how many times the burner on a tank style will turn on to heat sitting water during the day compared to tankless with 2 kids using demand from 6 pm to 9pm (Food prep, washing hands, showers and baths) Thoughts?
Andrey Yaromich you do know you can just not have the water heater running until you’re getting ready to come to around 6pm. My electric company even has a switch they control that can shut off the water heater for hours, during a time when it’s not needed.
We have a recirculating pump like this in an upstairs bathroom with a tankless heater but getting hot water to the kitchen takes 10 minutes. Would you recommend a second recirc pump in the kitchen?
The retrofit system but is half-assed compared to a dedicated new construction install. Not wasting water is it's only upside. Still takes time for hot water to reach where it's needed and must wait until it gets there.
Yea I’d say insulating works when you use the heater intermittently every couple hours, here in Ontario Canada, no insulation is required by code in new/permitted install on tankless. But on a tank heater we have to install at least 8ft of quality insulation to pass inspection.
What brand circulating system did you install here and where did the push button and remote start come from. Doing some research and am not seeing these as part of a package.
Please help find a model with manual on/off button capabilities anymore. I'd like to install either a wired or wireless button on the wall of the kitchen sink. I have a 5GPM tankless heater. Thanks!
I've been plumbing for over 40 years. (since Jr. High School) I am so glad that most people just don't get plumbing. Keeps me working. Government codes and restrictions force plumbers to oversize water systems so that if everything in the structure was running at once....wait...that would never happen. To circumvent that piece of legislature I run a separate, dedicated 1/2" supply to the kitchen sink, where hot water is in demand most of the time. If you just undersized everything... the pipes will erode from the inside out.
surely not a licensed plumber., Water supply piping of both water heater and cold water is sized BASED ON Fixture value and based on PSI., so that it can be sized based on the REQUIRED Min amount of pipe sized. Don't know what you're talking about being FORCED to OVERSIZE. A house with 40 psi at the supply and 4 bathrooms surely need bigger piping than another home with 80 psi and 1 bathroom.
@@MrInfoPhilly _____You say: "Surely not licensed" Aren't you forced to do the speed limit while driving?...but you do it anyway. My comment addresses circulating systems which sometimes cause "pin holes" in copper. Also, having to wait a long time for hot water, wastes water (simple). For my customers who's water heater is located far away from the kitchen sink or shower, I run a dedicated 1/2" hot water line from the water heater directly to the fixture. Takes much less time to get hot and wastes much less water. (simple) No energy wasting and "pin hole causing" circulating pump ($300.00) needed. I don't under-size water systems....I install custom features like dedicated lines so you don't have to wait for or waste hot water.
@@readmore3634 Reread your first comment., you use the word undersized, not me. An appropriate size, in residential., I use (1) ½ line for the kitchen sink and dishwasher. Then tee off for the stubouts. If we're talking water recirculating systems., one should use a variable speed pump and circuit setter to limit the gpm and all is good. Don't you think?
@@MrInfoPhilly I never said to undersize...I said " To circumvent that piece of legislature I run a separate, dedicated 1/2" supply "instead" of under sizing . That way you have no hot water running through any larger (than needed) pipe to reach the kitchen. As for circulating systems...a very slow running pump is fine in almost any system, provided the system is completely insulated....The problem is "electrolysis"....constant (unnecessary in most cases) movement of water in pipes. Electrolysis is unpredictable even if you use dielectric unions at every dissimilar metal connection.
Since the tankless is an energy saving device, seems like some insulation around those hot water pipes would be in order, cause after you use up all that heat to get to the second floor, ut all disapates into the basement when done washing your hands or whatever else your doing.
OR just install a Grundfos UP15-10SU7P/TLC and put the pump down stairs where most people would have a plug and the by pass in the cabinet. most tankless heaters have a recirc built in now though.
Insulation will slow down heat loss..it won't stop it. If there is zero flow, the water temperature will still cool to room temperature....only more slowly with insulation
Not really. I put one in in a new house and even with insulation it's worth it. My Chilipepper went out in 3 years and looking for this Taco but can't fine it and I like tacos but without chilis.
In my experience, the success of the install is based on proper timer settings. If you keep the hot water circulating for too long you'll end up waiting for cold water just as long as you used to wait for hot water pre-install.
FIRST; He did not tell why 3/4" is worse than 1/2" pipe - I tell you - 3/4 holds much more water than 1/2 so it takes longer for water to get to the faucet. SECOND; He did not tell you WHERE the water goes - I tell you - It goes through the cold water line TO THE WATER HEATER. THIRD: He did not tell you that there WILL be some luke warm water in the cold water line. FOURTH: He did not tell you that many people do not like to drink water from the hot water side because it may have things like ALUMINUM or MAGNESIUM from the ANODES in Tank type water heaters and bacteria or metals that may exist in instant water heater lines from fluctuating heat of copper, solder, or Stainless steel in contact with water.
the 3/4" pipe is used for a reason. that house is too big for a 1/2" line. there's too many fixtures, too many bathrooms to feed. there's actually codes for each municipality as to what size pipe is required to feed so many fixtures... it doesn't matter if they will never run ALL at the same time, it's code... and bigger pipe is always better. the larger volume you have at the same pressure as the smaller will replenish what is lost faster. simple hydraulics... and where I'm at the main line coming in is always 1" or bigger.. so drop the 3/4 or 1/2 or 1/8... doesn't matter, it's determined by the fixtures. also this guy in the video is dumb, never tie a recirc line to a cold. ever.... period... lots and lots of reasons. the basement was clearly open and he could've come up with another solution. BUUUT new codes are starting to require recirc lines during the initial build and even some remodels....
Are going to place pumps everywhere at home to get the delayed hot water. If it is intended for that particular faucet then that would be a good fix. But for a complete solution for the house, you should have new pipe tapped near each master isolation valve at the house and the should all gather to a common point that discharges from recirculation pump given that pressure balance is achieved across all tapping points.
thanks for the video, rich. i live in california and we're in the middle of a three-year drought, making it difficult to justify wasting clean water while waiting for it to get hot. i like this on-demand recirc pump but can't find the make / model. can you tell me what pump you installed?
All it’s doing is connecting the new hot water return line which in this case is that set of tees that come with the pump and tying into the cold line with a aqua stat that opens or closes on your set temperature demand, and I’m sure there is a backflow or check valve built into the pump or the hot side tee that he used. So basically Instead of your traditional hot water return loop that starts at the furthest hot water fixture always from the water heater and runs all the way back to the water heater and connects into the cold water feed to the water heater , which helps also because you’re not dumping just cold water into the tank when using it but know it’s tempered since that hot water return ties into the cold right at the tank , of course there needs to be a check valve on the return line ,and some say the cold water line to prevent any type of cross connection
If you see it up like you are is it a dedicated unit just for that bathroom?? Does that mean I have to install at the other hot water lines to the other location.
There's too many comments to read and help clarify. So here's a little clarification. What he meant about the 3/4" pipe not doing her any favors was simply that the 3/4" line has more than twice the volume as the 1/2" and therefore requiring twice the amount of cold water to clear before she got the hot water. On the other hand, as someone mentioned 3/4" is (sometimes) required by code depending on the amount of water it is anticipated to pass. And on the 3rd hand, these tankless water heaters have a tendency to cause a sizeable pressure loss while using the 3/4" would make up for that pressure loss. Tankless water heaters have a lot of pros and cons, which I won't get into here. Just google it. In the long run you're typically not saving money. Likely will end up costing you more. Another way to skin the cat is to connect the end of a Hot Water line to you toilet. What's the first thing you use when you get up in the morning and go to the bathroom? ;-))
Commenting from the UK but I do have this problem - however, our cold water comes straight from the main line outside in the street - I don't have a cold water tank. Would this still work?
This works under sink and is easy to install? I have a Chilipepper that stopped working in 3 years and thinking about replacing it with something better but this quite expensive vs $250.
Will a recirc pump mess up a water softener by pumping water into the brine tank? I would imagine you install the water softener then a check valve then the tankless water heater with a recirculating pump on a dedicated line. Does thy sound right?
This is a very nice & interesting video. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with us. But I don't know if I missed the information regarding the pump. Where can I buy it? or what's the model number? I haven't read all the comments and maybe I didn't read enough. Can somebody tell me that information?
Does pushing this water back through the cold side cause potential long term damage? Reduce the life of the hot water tank? Is there a downside to this?
This is a pretty old thread if you happen to read this message, do you know where I can find recirculation pump that you are showing in the demo, all my searches are resulting in one that goes on the top of the water heater but I want something that can be mounted inside the cabinet. If you can post the link or make of the pump much appreciated.
I understand the aquastat stops the pump once hot water reaches the sink and I also understand there is a check valve that prevents "cold water from crossing into the hot water side" when hot water is used. What prevents "hot water from entering into the cold water side" when cold water is used at the sink, shower, watering the lawn or any other cold water demand that lowers the water pressure in the cold line and not the hot line? If hot water is crossing over into the cold water side during cold water usage, wouldn't that place additional demand on my water heater.
Actually, what I said earlier (Commenting from the UK but I do have this problem - however, our cold water comes straight from the main line outside in the street - I don't have a cold water tank. Would this still work?), presumably the cold water goes into the hot water tank the same way it takes it from the outside?
You have to add a preassur reducer to the line at the water heater, naturally hot water is under more pressure than cold which is why most places require expansion tanks these days
Is this how it works? There is only one water source into the house that feeds both cold and hot sides and it can't flow backward to the street. So when the pump turns on it does 2 things, pulls from hot side and pushes to the cold side. The water heater would then pull in the water that comes from the pressure on the cold side. Would this be a way to prevent freezing pipes ?
I would think only if it's automatic and not on-demand, but I could be wrong. Ours at work is connected at the heater itself and no matter where in the building when you turn on the hot faucet, it's instantly hot, so those pipes have gotta be hot all the time.
Since you added 120v outlet, why not to add a small tankless water heater? No wait, instant hot water until main unit starts delivering water to second floor. Right?
Because you would need one of those tankless heaters in every bathroom and the kitchen. And electrically heating water is much more expensive than a gas water heater.
I am not sure I get this --- so, the cold water in the cold water line backs up through that cold water line to where the cold water supply line branches off to the hot water heater and takes that path to recirculate the water? So, if you happened to turn on the cold water faucet in the lavatory when the recirc pump is one, is there a much higher pressure in that line when the recirculation pump is on trying to heat up the hot water line?
Richard is great but I am disappointed when there is no mention of putting thick foam insulation tubes around the hot (and sometimes cold) water lines. Saves power, buying water, paying sewer, conservation.
Fantastic idea to save water. With the major droughts in California this should be mandatory for saving water or anywhere else there is water shortage issues.
We Fix Water Heaters Wise homeowners should invest in researching the many differences in the different types available on the market. Systems equipped with passive spring-based check valve (such as this one) prevent cold water from entering into the hot water side. But, what prevents water in the hot water pipes from siphoning into the cold water line when the water pressure in the cold water line drops during cold water usage events, i.e. flushing toilet, watering lawn, using cold water tap, etc? Nothing. Thermostatic valve controlled systems utilize comfort valves which "close after" 95F water reaches the valve. Any time less than 95F water is at the valve, the valve will be in it's "default normally open" position. Having to wait for cold waste water down the drain as well. "Active flow control" rather than passive flow control is required to prevent water siphoning from hot water line to cold water line.
Thermostatic valves actuate (open / close) in reaction to temperature. There are two types of thermostatic valve-based systems. One which utilizes a pump and one which does not. The one which does not utilize a pump, relies on the power of convection for the water to circulate. Heat rises. This type system requires the valve to be located 2 or more stories higher then the heat source. Searching the internet confirms the same opinions I've heard from previous owners. Most stating that the circulation / flow occurred at a rate far too slow to be effective. The energy consumption / additional demand caused by water continuously entering the water heater out weighed the little, if any, benefit. The second type of thermostatic valve system utilizes a pump at the water heater that must run continuously to maintain heated water at the thermostatic valve(s) installed under the sink(s). Again, here we have a near continuous flow of water (demand) entering the water heater. Searching the internet and speaking with a couple of new homeowners who had these in their home when they moved in conveyed that their frustration from wasting so much water having to wait for cold water and their +$200 monthly gas bills resulted in them unplugging the pumps power cord from the wall. But, the majority of complaints came from people tired of having to replace the black plastic thermostatic / comfort valves every year or two at $65 each. What really surprised me were two owners who clearly emphasized (curse words) they were tired of getting scalded while showering, each time their valves failed without warning. At some point I question the mindset of anyone who accepts having a normally open valve connecting your hot and cold water lines together. What most people don't comprehend is the cause and effect of having an 'open' valve between your hot and cold water lines. Consider the fact that anytime cold water in the home / on the property, is used, the water pressure (psi) drops throughout the "cold water" lines. Thereby, leaving the hot water lines with a higher psi which naturally results in water from the hot water line (water heater) being easily pushed through any open thermostatic valves and into the cold water line anytime a toilet is flushed, grass is watered, i.e. cold water is utilized. In my eye's, thermostatic valve systems are comparable to buying a car that promises to get you to work quicker, but the dealer failed to mention that return trips from work will take considerably longer. While also choosing not to mention the slow drip from the gas tank that occurs when vehicle is not driven.
My house was built in 2010 and have a tankless water heater. It take 2 minutes or longer to get hot water in the bathroom. So if I install one of these, will it take 2 minutes after turning on the hot water faucet to get anything? What about the dishwasher?
The UK used to have hot water storage tanks up in attics and they were open to the atmosphere. They would often times become contaminated and too many people got sick. This is why you see separate hot and cold faucets throughout a lot of buildings in the UK. In the US we have water heaters that are pressurized and completely sealed from the atmosphere. There is no risk of pathogens in the water to make you sick. However, hot water dissolves minerals, metals, scale, and other non harmful substances and can make the water taste different/bad.
We need to know the make and model and where we can purchase the recirculating pump that Richard installed in the Sept 7, 2014 on Ask this old house show.
I was taught that the best way is too pipe back from the furthest sink, hot water line to the inlet of cold water at the heater. And a check valve on the tank cold water supply to prevent the warm water from going backwards. The pump will take the water in the hot water supply of that sink and send it in the water heater. You put a temperature control to turn pump on / off according to the loop temperature. Comments??
best way., you can run a loop from the hot side of the first and 2nd floor., furthest fixture... If you run the hot from say, the first floor bathroom, in which the the hot runs into the kitchen., then loops back to the cir pump., all the lines on their stays hot. And you tee in the 2nd floor... Yes, check valve on the cold supply yo water heater., then a TEE after check valve., Then pipe in to cold inlet of water heater.... It will be constant warm water.,
Super energy efficient you just have to add a electric pump here and plumbing there... honestly for the cost of that pump to save a few seconds of waiting, is it really worth it?
What is the pump brand that uses the on demand button, I can't seem to find anything on line that does not have a timer. I have to waste so much water waiting because of hot water heater locations and want to install this system
So the pump just moves the cold water from the hot water pipe to the cold water pipe. Not even any dynamic pressure, only static so very little for the pump to do. Good idea.
My question is actually based on pressure. Houses here are normally installed with an auto pressure pump for the main supply line. The pumps produces a pressure rating of around 10 bar equivalent to 145 psi (Pump on the pent house). Does this mean that the booster or pressure pump on the supply line will contradict the pressure and thus the flow with this recirculation pump? I am not sure how this pump works but in the other video they say as soon as the water temperature at the valve drops to 98 degrees, it will allow water to be recirculated. By this, I believe the Watts small pump works on pressure stutus. When the valve shrinks due to heat change, water is allowed and therefore the pump detects the loss of pressure and starts to function. Does this means if the pressure on the cold supply line is greater or higher to some extent then the Watts pump won't start? In other words, what is the maximum pressure allowed on the cold line or the main supply line for this system to work properly? I am asking this just because we are going to boost the supply line with a 10 bar/145 psi automatic pump for two reasons. 1. It's because we want pressure on all showers below as water supply is free fall from a tank above. 2. A 200 liter central heater is at the same level as on one of the showers. Pressure will be so less at this point. Any help is much appreciated in advance.
Most places in the us you are either running off of a large well pump or city water pressure. We dont boost the pressure coming into the house, it's actually regulated down with a reducing valve in most cases.
I'm guessing that such a system would actually use more energy. Getting water warm takes a significant amount of energy, but keeping it there takes comparatively little, especially in an insulated chamber like a water heater tank. Thus, for short periods of time (i.e. overnight) it makes sense to just periodically turn on the burner to maintain the water temperature. For longer periods of inactivity, like if you were gone for vacation, you could just flip the breaker.
@@AMM1275 It's funny the hot water heater folks never performed this test. They want people to buy their product every ten years instead of every twenty. I'm thinking after turn-off, the water in the tank would be usable for up to eight hours ("especially in an insulated chamber"). I'm single and retired and need hot water only to wash my dishes (on non shower days). I'm probably throwing $40 a month out-the-window. We need programmable water heaters.
@@kentonkirkpatrick5225 I don't think it is nearly as much of a conspiracy as you think. They're insulated, but not like a thermos. It's mostly just fiberglass insulation, so no, I don't think it could maintain for 8 hours.
@@AMM1275 Probably would not reach room temp for 24 hours. Also, they make external insulating blanket to wrap the heater. Not trying to make a big deal over this but it is a hole where money disappears every month.
I’m confused, how does the hot water move into the cold water pipe when the cold water piper is under high pressure? And again i don’t get how the cold water pipe stays cold after you’ve mixed them.
John Ward no pressure difference between hot and cold here. 30 lbs, 50 lbs, no matter. The pump just pushes cold water into the cold water line until it comes up hot, then stops. Trust the engineer.
Just to be clear...you won't have immediate access to your hot water because the cold water in the hot line is forced back into the cold line....and only when it detects the hot water reaching the location, it turns off and allows the hot to come through. Is that how the pump works? .
I've been following TOH since the early 80's. I'm always a skeptic, but in the end will say that Richard Tretheway is the man! Thumbs up to some of the OG's, and long live TOH! :)
I like how the electric outlet appears inside the vanity.
Andre Campbell magic!!
I see this a lot in the USA. For dishwashers etc
To be honest, not sure I see the huge risk with doing it even if it “feels wrong”
🇬🇧
You see this in Germany all the time. They usually have a small efficient water heater underneath the sink. Here in Romania, you have the outlets just outside the bathroom for electric razors, hair dryers etc. If you install anything inside the bathroom, an electrician has to bring wires inside somehow. Pain in the ass. Debatable...
Andre Campbell ya next will install a garbage disposer
Maybe it was that it " just appears" like magic. I've never seen an outlet under a bath sink unless added later. If your going to put a pump in, your going to have to add electricity with ground fault circuitry.
Modern kitchen sinks are more likely to have power for garbage disposal and dishwasher.
Legend has it, she still has no idea where that hot water is going.
Bob Sacamano 🤣
It will take too many minutes to sketch the water pipes and explain piping and valves in the show.
He also didn't explain it. He did not explain that the pump has to have more pressure then the static water pressure of the home and the pump tries to push the water backwards through the main water line for the house. Basically pushing the water back to the city. My question is, would it flow the water meter backwards as it did it?
@@letsnotmakethispersonal6021 ..here's my guess....many homes have a backflow preventer or check valve that won't allow water that is "Already" in the home system....to be pushed back out into the city system. So....when the under-sink pump comes on, it has to have enough pressure to overcome the pressure in the home system, and it then pushes hot water from the hot water line.....into the cold water line. Remember.....if you are "taking" hot water from the piping ( and from the hot water heater, part of your home "System" inventory)...you have "room" to re-introduce that same amount of water back into your home system, but now it's being re-introduced back into the cold water section of the "system". Both hot and cold sections are part of the same system, and can flow into (and out of) the "System"...meaning all the house piping connected to the hot water heater....so there is room to put the same amount of water back into the cold water line....that you "took out of" the hot water line.
@@TheWilferch that, that right there would be an actual answer to her question. Thank you.
I have been following "This Old House" since 1965. I have already been a big fan of this channel.
How many CFM's are we talking here?
You must have been in a time warp, since the show began in 1979.
This system works great in my home. I’m on a well and have a septic system. I don’t waste water my water by putting it into my septic system.
Surviving the California drought✌🏻
What brand do you have?
Ive learned about this pump recently as a plumber, they have versions that the pump that needs power sits atop a water heater tank and you put a small device that slowly lets water into the cold side to keep water flow.
The other kind of circulating pump works like this. You find the furthest fixture and run a second hot water pipe from it that ties back into the heater
The pump then constantly pumps water thru that line and everything gets hot water faster.
As a plumber i would recomend useing a tank water heater with the kind of pump i explaines first. Tankless water heaters req alot more power than a tank and if its gas than alot more btu of gas than a tank heater.
The whole point of a tankless is to not be running all the time in the first place as it takes twice the energy of what a water heater with a tank would use to heat the water. Hope this helps, feel free to ask questions.
I agree, I hope my tankless install with a learning smart circ pump will save me energy over all (not using water from 730 am to 6pm)
Thinking how many times the burner on a tank style will turn on to heat sitting water during the day compared to tankless with 2 kids using demand from 6 pm to 9pm
(Food prep, washing hands, showers and baths)
Thoughts?
Andrey Yaromich you do know you can just not have the water heater running until you’re getting ready to come to around 6pm. My electric company even has a switch they control that can shut off the water heater for hours, during a time when it’s not needed.
@@andreyyaromich8277
less energy to maintain warm temperature in a TANK, rather then bringing cold to hot instantly
We have a recirculating pump like this in an upstairs bathroom with a tankless heater but getting hot water to the kitchen takes 10 minutes. Would you recommend a second recirc pump in the kitchen?
The retrofit system but is half-assed compared to a dedicated new construction install. Not wasting water is it's only upside. Still takes time for hot water to reach where it's needed and must wait until it gets there.
Brilliant idea. If your on a well/septic system you really need this.
It would also help to put insulation around the hot water pipe from the water heat to where the pipe goes into the wall and heads upstairs.
It also helps when you STFU
Depends on how frequently the hot water gets used and the length of the run.
Not really. If you only use the bathroom hot water every morning, it has 24 hours to cool down
Yea I’d say insulating works when you use the heater intermittently every couple hours, here in Ontario Canada, no insulation is required by code in new/permitted install on tankless.
But on a tank heater we have to install at least 8ft of quality insulation to pass inspection.
That’s what I asked. Why not insulate the pipes?
What brand circulating system did you install here and where did the push button and remote start come from. Doing some research and am not seeing these as part of a package.
Please help find a model with manual on/off button capabilities anymore. I'd like to install either a wired or wireless button on the wall of the kitchen sink. I have a 5GPM tankless heater. Thanks!
What brand and what model pump dos have the remote switch and hot water sensors
Thank you
How convient that there is a 110 outlet inside the vanity. LOL yeah, that happens all the time.
I was thinking the same thing!
CUEBALL424 or lights
That’s why they call it a convenience outlet.
wait not just an outlet but a true GFI...LOL...how many years of energy savings to recoup the money spent on the electrician's bill
By NEC in any bathroom 110 GFCI outlet have to be no more than 3' away from vanity
Very smart idea. This would also work for a regular hot water tank that is located at the opposite end of the house where the hot water is needed.
I've been plumbing for over 40 years. (since Jr. High School) I am so glad that most people just don't get plumbing. Keeps me working. Government codes and restrictions force plumbers to oversize water systems so that if everything in the structure was running at once....wait...that would never happen. To circumvent that piece of legislature I run a separate, dedicated 1/2" supply to the kitchen sink, where hot water is in demand most of the time. If you just undersized everything... the pipes will erode from the inside out.
Averageskill
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surely not a licensed plumber., Water supply piping of both water heater and cold water is sized BASED ON Fixture value and based on PSI., so that it can be sized based on the REQUIRED Min amount of pipe sized. Don't know what you're talking about being FORCED to OVERSIZE. A house with 40 psi at the supply and 4 bathrooms surely need bigger piping than another home with 80 psi and 1 bathroom.
@@MrInfoPhilly _____You say: "Surely not licensed"
Aren't you forced to do the speed limit while driving?...but you do it anyway.
My comment addresses circulating systems which sometimes cause "pin holes" in copper. Also, having to wait a long time for hot water, wastes water (simple). For my customers who's water heater is located far away from the kitchen sink or shower, I run a dedicated 1/2" hot water line from the water heater directly to the fixture. Takes much less time to get hot and wastes much less water. (simple) No energy wasting and "pin hole causing" circulating pump ($300.00) needed.
I don't under-size water systems....I install custom features like dedicated lines so you don't have to wait for or waste hot water.
@@readmore3634
Reread your first comment., you use the word undersized, not me.
An appropriate size, in residential., I use (1) ½ line for the kitchen sink and dishwasher. Then tee off for the stubouts.
If we're talking water recirculating systems., one should use a variable speed pump and circuit setter to limit the gpm and all is good. Don't you think?
@@MrInfoPhilly I never said to undersize...I said " To circumvent that piece of legislature I run a separate, dedicated 1/2" supply "instead" of under sizing . That way you have no hot water running through any larger (than needed) pipe to reach the kitchen. As for circulating systems...a very slow running pump is fine in almost any system, provided the system is completely insulated....The problem is "electrolysis"....constant (unnecessary in most cases) movement of water in pipes. Electrolysis is unpredictable even if you use dielectric unions at every dissimilar metal connection.
Which is better, this under the sink one.. or the recirculation pump at the hot water heater?
Since the tankless is an energy saving device, seems like some insulation around those hot water pipes would be in order, cause after you use up all that heat to get to the second floor, ut all disapates into the basement when done washing your hands or whatever else your doing.
you're
OR just install a Grundfos UP15-10SU7P/TLC and put the pump down stairs where most people would have a plug and the by pass in the cabinet. most tankless heaters have a recirc built in now though.
Insulation will slow down heat loss..it won't stop it. If there is zero flow, the water temperature will still cool to room temperature....only more slowly with insulation
Not really. I put one in in a new house and even with insulation it's worth it. My Chilipepper went out in 3 years and looking for this Taco but can't fine it and I like tacos but without chilis.
In my experience, the success of the install is based on proper timer settings. If you keep the hot water circulating for too long you'll end up waiting for cold water just as long as you used to wait for hot water pre-install.
Wtf are you talking about?
No timer, push button.
Does the recirculating pump have to overcome the house water pressure that would be present at the cold line return?
You will still get Luke warm water in the cold until the sensor reaches the hot setting?
Copper pipe? What year is this? Where is the Pex?
Is there a link to this type of recirculation pump?
this very good system, but my question is this pump will help to empty could water in all bathroom or only for this faucet sink?
FIRST; He did not tell why 3/4" is worse than 1/2" pipe - I tell you - 3/4 holds much more water than 1/2 so it takes longer for water to get to the faucet.
SECOND; He did not tell you WHERE the water goes - I tell you - It goes through the cold water line TO THE WATER HEATER.
THIRD: He did not tell you that there WILL be some luke warm water in the cold water line.
FOURTH: He did not tell you that many people do not like to drink water from the hot water side because it may have things like ALUMINUM or MAGNESIUM from the ANODES in Tank type water heaters and bacteria or metals that may exist in instant water heater lines from fluctuating heat of copper, solder, or Stainless steel in contact with water.
What do you recommend instead?
+helpanoobout you can install a dedicated line back to the hot water heater and not use the cold water line.
But, no need to heat hot water.
the 3/4" pipe is used for a reason. that house is too big for a 1/2" line. there's too many fixtures, too many bathrooms to feed. there's actually codes for each municipality as to what size pipe is required to feed so many fixtures... it doesn't matter if they will never run ALL at the same time, it's code... and bigger pipe is always better. the larger volume you have at the same pressure as the smaller will replenish what is lost faster. simple hydraulics... and where I'm at the main line coming in is always 1" or bigger.. so drop the 3/4 or 1/2 or 1/8... doesn't matter, it's determined by the fixtures. also this guy in the video is dumb, never tie a recirc line to a cold. ever.... period... lots and lots of reasons. the basement was clearly open and he could've come up with another solution. BUUUT new codes are starting to require recirc lines during the initial build and even some remodels....
He's just trying to make it short, but helpful.
Are going to place pumps everywhere at home to get the delayed hot water. If it is intended for that particular faucet then that would be a good fix. But for a complete solution for the house, you should have new pipe tapped near each master isolation valve at the house and the should all gather to a common point that discharges from recirculation pump given that pressure balance is achieved across all tapping points.
which pump are you using in the video, your link goes to amazon with all kinds of pumps
Pump name and model please. Does it work with standard water tank? Thanks
Where I can find that pump?
Where can i find the pump u install with door bell button name .model etc
Great!! only if I had told the contractor to put in an outlet in the vanity!!
thanks for the video, rich. i live in california and we're in the middle of a three-year drought, making it difficult to justify wasting clean water while waiting for it to get hot.
i like this on-demand recirc pump but can't find the make / model. can you tell me what pump you installed?
Legend has it doobie newell still doesn't know what pump to buy.
Did you ever find this pump? I'm looking for it too.
All it’s doing is connecting the new hot water return line which in this case is that set of tees that come with the pump and tying into the cold line with a aqua stat that opens or closes on your set temperature demand, and I’m sure there is a backflow or check valve built into the pump or the hot side tee that he used. So basically Instead of your traditional hot water return loop that starts at the furthest hot water fixture always from the water heater and runs all the way back to the water heater and connects into the cold water feed to the water heater , which helps also because you’re not dumping just cold water into the tank when using it but know it’s tempered since that hot water return ties into the cold right at the tank , of course there needs to be a check valve on the return line ,and some say the cold water line to prevent any type of cross connection
Where I can buy this pump?
I think you need a shot off valve in order to replace or do maintanance for the pump
If you see it up like you are is it a dedicated unit just for that bathroom?? Does that mean I have to install at the other hot water lines to the other location.
Works great IF you have an outlet under your bath vanity.
what is the model number of that tankless water heater?
What is the name of the pump system he is installing?
This one is the exact solution I am looking for - Can't seem to find it in Ontario Canada anywhere. Suggestions would be appreciated.
where does the cold water go that has to Leave when pump brings in hot water without the faucets being turn on?
Can this be used if you are on city water? If so how would this affect a water bill?
I was just wondering if this would help or hurt a water bill.
There's too many comments to read and help clarify. So here's a little clarification.
What he meant about the 3/4" pipe not doing her any favors was simply that the 3/4" line has more than twice the volume as the 1/2" and therefore requiring twice the amount of cold water to clear before she got the hot water.
On the other hand, as someone mentioned 3/4" is (sometimes) required by code depending on the amount of water it is anticipated to pass. And on the 3rd hand, these tankless water heaters have a tendency to cause a sizeable pressure loss while using the 3/4" would make up for that pressure loss.
Tankless water heaters have a lot of pros and cons, which I won't get into here. Just google it.
In the long run you're typically not saving money. Likely will end up costing you more.
Another way to skin the cat is to connect the end of a Hot Water line to you toilet. What's the first thing you use when you get up in the morning and go to the bathroom? ;-))
Commenting from the UK but I do have this problem - however, our cold water comes straight from the main line outside in the street - I don't have a cold water tank. Would this still work?
Does this pump work for regular conventional hot water tubs?
Richard is top notch!
And how many people have an electrical outlet under their sink?
I go to the site but I can't find this pump for my tankless water heater. Need a part number?
Where do we find this pump???
The pump kit has been replaced with TacoGenie 0011-CF-USK Pump with Under Sink Kit, 3/4" Shut-Off Flange, 1/8 HP at around $635.
This works under sink and is easy to install? I have a Chilipepper that stopped working in 3 years and thinking about replacing it with something better but this quite expensive vs $250.
TacoGenie 0011-CF-USK Pump with Under Sink Kit, 3/4" Shut-Off Flange, 1/8 HP
$980.88
what was the brand name of the recirculation pump that was installed?
It's a taco and I can't find it on their website. Did you.
Put how do you wire the button to the pump
can you provide detail information about the pump you are using in this video or similar pump please?
Will a recirc pump mess up a water softener by pumping water into the brine tank? I would imagine you install the water softener then a check valve then the tankless water heater with a recirculating pump on a dedicated line. Does thy sound right?
What's the brand and specs for the pump? What stores carry it?
This is a very nice & interesting video. Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge with us. But I don't know if I missed the information regarding the pump. Where can I buy it? or what's the model number? I haven't read all the comments and maybe I didn't read enough. Can somebody tell me that information?
Does pushing this water back through the cold side cause potential long term damage? Reduce the life of the hot water tank? Is there a downside to this?
No
This is a pretty old thread if you happen to read this message, do you know where I can find recirculation pump that you are showing in the demo, all my searches are resulting in one that goes on the top of the water heater but I want something that can be mounted inside the cabinet. If you can post the link or make of the pump much appreciated.
I understand the aquastat stops the pump once hot water reaches the sink and I also understand there is a check valve that prevents "cold water from crossing into the hot water side" when hot water is used. What prevents "hot water from entering into the cold water side" when cold water is used at the sink, shower, watering the lawn or any other cold water demand that lowers the water pressure in the cold line and not the hot line? If hot water is crossing over into the cold water side during cold water usage, wouldn't that place additional demand on my water heater.
The pump wouldn't be running, so the pathway would be closed. It is a pump, the flow only occurs while powered.
Actually, what I said earlier (Commenting from the UK but I do have this problem - however, our cold water comes straight from the main line outside in the street - I don't have a cold water tank. Would this still work?), presumably the cold water goes into the hot water tank the same way it takes it from the outside?
How is the water returned to the cold side, when water is pressurized? Lines already filled...
You have to add a preassur reducer to the line at the water heater, naturally hot water is under more pressure than cold which is why most places require expansion tanks these days
Easy when you have an outlet inside the vanity! That hot water sure arrived fast!
I am with her. Where does the cold water go when being pumped? Won't the check valve stop it from traveling back to the cold water line?
Who said anything about a check valve? Life becomes a lot harder when you make up problems for no reason.
3:47 Watch It !!!
What is the name of the pump? I cannot ask for it if i don't know the name and model.
Can you use this with an electric tankless hot water heater?
what is the pump branch and model number please
It looks like its the TacoGenie unit. Here's the model info www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/100-41.pdf
Is this how it works? There is only one water source into the house that feeds both cold and hot sides and it can't flow backward to the street. So when the pump turns on it does 2 things, pulls from hot side and pushes to the cold side. The water heater would then pull in the water that comes from the pressure on the cold side. Would this be a way to prevent freezing pipes ?
I would think only if it's automatic and not on-demand, but I could be wrong. Ours at work is connected at the heater itself and no matter where in the building when you turn on the hot faucet, it's instantly hot, so those pipes have gotta be hot all the time.
Since you added 120v outlet, why not to add a small tankless water heater? No wait, instant hot water until main unit starts delivering water to second floor. Right?
Because you would need one of those tankless heaters in every bathroom and the kitchen. And electrically heating water is much more expensive than a gas water heater.
My aunt has a system similar to this. Her gas tankless system turns on and off every minute. One minute on, one minute off. Is this normal?
I am not sure I get this --- so, the cold water in the cold water line backs up through that cold water line to where the cold water supply line branches off to the hot water heater and takes that path to recirculate the water?
So, if you happened to turn on the cold water faucet in the lavatory when the recirc pump is one, is there a much higher pressure in that line when the recirculation pump is on trying to heat up the hot water line?
Richard is great but I am disappointed when there is no mention of putting thick foam insulation tubes around the hot (and sometimes cold) water lines. Saves power, buying water, paying sewer, conservation.
Fantastic idea to save water. With the major droughts in California this should be mandatory for saving water or anywhere else there is water shortage issues.
We Fix Water Heaters Wise homeowners should invest in researching the many differences in the different types available on the market. Systems equipped with passive spring-based check valve (such as this one) prevent cold water from entering into the hot water side. But, what prevents water in the hot water pipes from siphoning into the cold water line when the water pressure in the cold water line drops during cold water usage events, i.e. flushing toilet, watering lawn, using cold water tap, etc? Nothing. Thermostatic valve controlled systems utilize comfort valves which "close after" 95F water reaches the valve. Any time less than 95F water is at the valve, the valve will be in it's "default normally open" position.
Having to wait for cold waste water down the drain as well. "Active flow control" rather than passive flow control is required to prevent water siphoning from hot water line to cold water line.
+Ready Temp Do you have any recommendation on thermostatic valve controlled systems?
Thermostatic valves actuate (open / close) in reaction to temperature. There are two types of thermostatic valve-based systems. One which utilizes a pump and one which does not.
The one which does not utilize a pump, relies on the power of convection for the water to circulate. Heat rises. This type system requires the valve to be located 2 or more stories higher then the heat source. Searching the internet confirms the same opinions I've heard from previous owners. Most stating that the circulation / flow occurred at a rate far too slow to be effective. The energy consumption / additional demand caused by water continuously entering the water heater out weighed the little, if any, benefit.
The second type of thermostatic valve system utilizes a pump at the water heater that must run continuously to maintain heated water at the thermostatic valve(s) installed under the sink(s). Again, here we have a near continuous flow of water (demand) entering the water heater. Searching the internet and speaking with a couple of new homeowners who had these in their home when they moved in conveyed that their frustration from wasting so much water having to wait for cold water and their +$200 monthly gas bills resulted in them unplugging the pumps power cord from the wall. But, the majority of complaints came from people tired of having to replace the black plastic thermostatic / comfort valves every year or two at $65 each. What really surprised me were two owners who clearly emphasized (curse words) they were tired of getting scalded while showering, each time their valves failed without warning.
At some point I question the mindset of anyone who accepts having a normally open valve connecting your hot and cold water lines together. What most people don't comprehend is the cause and effect of having an 'open' valve between your hot and cold water lines. Consider the fact that anytime cold water in the home / on the property, is used, the water pressure (psi) drops throughout the "cold water" lines. Thereby, leaving the hot water lines with a higher psi which naturally results in water from the hot water line (water heater) being easily pushed through any open thermostatic valves and into the cold water line anytime a toilet is flushed, grass is watered, i.e. cold water is utilized.
In my eye's, thermostatic valve systems are comparable to buying a car that promises to get you to work quicker, but the dealer failed to mention that return trips from work will take considerably longer. While also choosing not to mention the slow drip from the gas tank that occurs when vehicle is not driven.
So your saying a HOT WATER LOBSTER won't work for someone on a single story?
To my definition of hot, nope.
how much more expensive bill a month for the pump vs without?
But what if you have a pressure reducer or a backflow preventer?
My house was built in 2010 and have a tankless water heater. It take 2 minutes or longer to get hot water in the bathroom. So if I install one of these, will it take 2 minutes after turning on the hot water faucet to get anything? What about the dishwasher?
In england uk we use check valves/one way valves to prevent hot water contaminating the cold drinking supply.... ????
The plumber would just take off the valves;)
Muricans carry bottled water in their semi/full truck, so they need not mind the quality of tap water. That would be like soooo 2016.
Closed boilers are just as bad as anything else. Also I would be surprised if it was the way you describe in the UK
The UK used to have hot water storage tanks up in attics and they were open to the atmosphere. They would often times become contaminated and too many people got sick. This is why you see separate hot and cold faucets throughout a lot of buildings in the UK.
In the US we have water heaters that are pressurized and completely sealed from the atmosphere. There is no risk of pathogens in the water to make you sick. However, hot water dissolves minerals, metals, scale, and other non harmful substances and can make the water taste different/bad.
Dušan Barlík I'm certain that you don't know anything about the US.
We need to know the make and model and where we can purchase the recirculating pump that Richard installed in the Sept 7, 2014 on Ask this old house show.
It is a Metlund D'mand
That's not right, Its a Taco
it takes 22s for the pump to pump enough hot water and shut off
what she was trying to ask was where does the cold water go how is there room for it to fit in pipes that are filled with cold water
The pump raises the pressure of the incoming from the hot water side and thus pushes the cold water back to the water heater.
Does this video include links to the parts used? The pump make, model ... Switch make model?
So how does this get hot water to faucet any faster than turning on faucet?
You set the timer and it sends hot water to the faucet before you get up.
still leaves hose on hose bib for the winter
Do you still have those separate hot and cold valves
Yes
The shut-off valve is in the wrong place. It shouldn't be off the tee. If the pump line leaks, there is no way to shut off the water.
What recirculator dis u instal in this video?? I need the info asap
so you still have to wait for the hot water? or does the temp sensor keep working it all day?
I was taught that the best way is too pipe back from the furthest sink, hot water line to the inlet of cold water at the heater. And a check valve on the tank cold water supply to prevent the warm water from going backwards. The pump will take the water in the hot water supply of that sink and send it in the water heater. You put a temperature control to turn pump on / off according to the loop temperature. Comments??
best way., you can run a loop from the hot side of the first and 2nd floor., furthest fixture... If you run the hot from say, the first floor bathroom, in which the the hot runs into the kitchen., then loops back to the cir pump., all the lines on their stays hot. And you tee in the 2nd floor...
Yes, check valve on the cold supply yo water heater., then a TEE after check valve., Then pipe in to cold inlet of water heater....
It will be constant warm water.,
Super energy efficient you just have to add a electric pump here and plumbing there... honestly for the cost of that pump to save a few seconds of waiting, is it really worth it?
Shouldn't the outlet be a GFI?
That outlet might be fed from the GFI outlet for shaver/hairdryer use, probably the easiest & cheapest way to do it and it still meets code.
@@TheOtherBill or using a gfci breaker.
@@TheBanshee90 that way the whole bathroom is protected
Where do you buy the (remote control) parts?
What is the pump brand that uses the on demand button, I can't seem to find anything on line that does not have a timer. I have to waste so much water waiting because of hot water heater locations and want to install this system
You can cut the button off and install a motion activated switch in the bathroom.
Where did the power outlet come from?
So the pump just moves the cold water from the hot water pipe to the cold water pipe. Not even any dynamic pressure, only static so very little for the pump to do. Good idea.
InsideOfMyOwnMind pathetic is what it is.
Jonas The Movie How is it unhygenic if the water never leaves the system? You already shower with a mix of hot and cold.
Doesn’t the cold water pile already have cold water in it?
Actually it is dynamic because it's moving.
Why?
@Jonas The Movie
My question is actually based on pressure. Houses here are normally installed with an auto pressure pump for the main supply line. The pumps produces a pressure rating of around 10 bar equivalent to 145 psi (Pump on the pent house). Does this mean that the booster or pressure pump on the supply line will contradict the pressure and thus the flow with this recirculation pump?
I am not sure how this pump works but in the other video they say as soon as the water temperature at the valve drops to 98 degrees, it will allow water to be recirculated. By this, I believe the Watts small pump works on pressure stutus. When the valve shrinks due to heat change, water is allowed and therefore the pump detects the loss of pressure and starts to function. Does this means if the pressure on the cold supply line is greater or higher to some extent then the Watts pump won't start? In other words, what is the maximum pressure allowed on the cold line or the main supply line for this system to work properly?
I am asking this just because we are going to boost the supply line with a 10 bar/145 psi automatic pump for two reasons. 1. It's because we want pressure on all showers below as water supply is free fall from a tank above. 2. A 200 liter central heater is at the same level as on one of the showers. Pressure will be so less at this point.
Any help is much appreciated in advance.
Most places in the us you are either running off of a large well pump or city water pressure. We dont boost the pressure coming into the house, it's actually regulated down with a reducing valve in most cases.
Why do I never see Hot-water timers? Why does my water heater have to run all night and while I'm at work? Do they make timers for water heaters?
I'm guessing that such a system would actually use more energy. Getting water warm takes a significant amount of energy, but keeping it there takes comparatively little, especially in an insulated chamber like a water heater tank. Thus, for short periods of time (i.e. overnight) it makes sense to just periodically turn on the burner to maintain the water temperature. For longer periods of inactivity, like if you were gone for vacation, you could just flip the breaker.
@@AMM1275 It's funny the hot water heater folks never performed this test. They want people to buy their product every ten years instead of every twenty. I'm thinking after turn-off, the water in the tank would be usable for up to eight hours ("especially in an insulated chamber"). I'm single and retired and need hot water only to wash my dishes (on non shower days). I'm probably throwing $40 a month out-the-window. We need programmable water heaters.
@@kentonkirkpatrick5225 I don't think it is nearly as much of a conspiracy as you think. They're insulated, but not like a thermos. It's mostly just fiberglass insulation, so no, I don't think it could maintain for 8 hours.
@@AMM1275 Probably would not reach room temp for 24 hours. Also, they make external insulating blanket to wrap the heater. Not trying to make a big deal over this but it is a hole where money disappears every month.
So you still have to use electricity to heat water that is going to sit in the pipe and get cold...
Can someone provide info on pump installed?
Make, model number
None of the pumps I’ve found on line have the temp sensor to turn off pump
I’m confused, how does the hot water move into the cold water pipe when the cold water piper is under high pressure? And again i don’t get how the cold water pipe stays cold after you’ve mixed them.
John Ward no pressure difference between hot and cold here. 30 lbs, 50 lbs, no matter. The pump just pushes cold water into the cold water line until it comes up hot, then stops. Trust the engineer.
@@michaelc.3812 does that mean the cold line will be under higher pressure (due to the extra water from the hot line)?
Braun's pump? Bron's pump?
Just to be clear...you won't have immediate access to your hot water because the cold water in the hot line is forced back into the cold line....and only when it detects the hot water reaching the location, it turns off and allows the hot to come through.
Is that how the pump works?
.