Death of the UK Car Industry - Part 2: British Leyland
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2024
- Hello, and welcome to Part 2 of my 4 part series on the death of the British Car Industry, focusing on the politics, society, economics and decisions made over the course of a 70 year period that led from Britain being one of the largest car-making countries in the world to having no home-based indigenous car brands left.
Part 2 focusses on the first half decade following the merger of British Motor Holdings with the Leyland Group to form British Leyland, a manufacturer envisaged to be the British equivalent of General Motors, but inherited far too many bad habits and rotten foundations upon its formation that the entire enterprise was doomed from the start, with no mixture of cars or compromises possibly being able to stave off the firm's inevitable slide into financial ruin by the middle of the 1970s.
Chapters:
0:00 - Preamble
1:17 - The Leyland Merger
4:48 - An Unhappy Marriage
8:12 - The Cracks Appear
13:46 - Boardroom Battles
16:45 - The Oil Crisis
20:06 - Bankruptcy
23:16 - The Ryder Report
29:09 - The Government Steps In
All video content and images in this production have been provided with permission wherever possible. While I endeavour to ensure that all accreditations properly name the original creator, some of my sources do not list them as they are usually provided by other, unrelated RUclipsrs. Therefore, if I have mistakenly put the accreditation of 'Unknown', and you are aware of the original creator, please send me a personal message at my Gmail (this is more effective than comments as I am often unable to read all of them): rorymacveigh@gmail.com
The views and opinions expressed in this video are my personal appraisal and are not the views and opinions of any of these individuals or bodies who have kindly supplied me with footage and images.
If you enjoyed this video, why not leave a like, and consider subscribing for more great content coming soon.
Press the Join button to get access to new videos a week ahead of schedule by becoming a channel member for just £2.99 a month!
Paypal: paypal.me/rorymacve?country.x...
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/rorymacve
Thanks again, everyone, and enjoy! :D
References:
- AROnline (and their respective sources)
- Wikipedia (and its respective references) 
Авто/Мото
I heard a story about a customer taking thier new Allegro back to the dealer complaining a rattlling sound. The mechanics identified that the problem was coming from a door, and upon removing the door skin they found a coke can inside.
Probably also found one of the many "Tom is a cunt" messages scrawled in hidden places
British Leyland giving you optional extras like that as standard. What a fantastic firm.
I used to work as a mechanic years ago, I remember doing a service on an Allegro one time, when I drained the engine oil I found a large ball bearing stuck to the magnet on the back of the oil drain bolt 😄no idea where it came from so I kept it in my toolbox as a souvenir.
@@davidrobert2007must have been the only part guaranteed not to rust…
Sometimes it's an Allegro, sometimes it's a Maestro... this story has been doing the rounds for decades. It's the kind of thing you'd think would have happened, but like all urban myths, who knows.
A couple of unsubstantiated stories about the Morris Marina. After several brake failures it was discovered that a drum of brake fluid used at the factory had been placed under a roof leak which contaminated the fluid. Another classic brake story concerned a customer returning his new Marina to the dealer complaining of the brakes pulling to one side. To placate the customer, they put two of their best mechanics on the job to sort it quickly. Everything Was inspected, cleaned, bled and adjusted. No faults were found. Next day the customer is back complaining of the same fault, especially under prolonged and heavy braking. As it was busy at the dealer only one mechanic was tasked with fault-finding. The face-palm moment occurred when the guy found it had disc brakes on one side and drum on the other. The basic 1.3 version had drums and the more up market 1.8 had discs, and both versions were built on a mixed line. Just a couple of stories among many about lack of quality control at the factory.
The story about the brakes is surreal.
Back in the early 80's I used to pick up cheap cars to tart up & sell on, the good thing about most BL cars were that they were pretty simple to work on, the Marina being the easiest.
Parts were cheap & the scrap yards were full of the things!
As for quality, I bought an Allegro with less than 15k on the clock, because it had been hit lightly in the rear, the boot & rear lights needed replacement.
On removing the boot lid, I noticed a cigarette packet had been wedged in the structure, then painted over during production 🤣
All part of the waterproofing sonny😁
Quality Control back then was viewed as just another reason for the not very good management to pick on, scrutinise & give criticism to a paranoid workforce....
They ciggie packet would cost a packet now
Marina trunions were a pure bastard if they were seized..
I bought an Allegro in 1979 it was the most unreliable car I’ve ever owned,oil leaks,leaks during wet weather the boot filling with water, etc etc etc etc.
In Germany British Leyland was always called „Britisch Elend“, Elend rhyming to Leyland. Translated it means British Misery. The only car sold in any number (in Germany) was the Mini, some Triumph Spitfires and Jaguars. Everything else made by BL did not see any numbers in sales. Though some other makes (Alfa Romeo with their Alfasud) had a bad reputation, BL had the worst. You had to be very lucky to see any BL car at all. Several BL dealers went bancrupt, some changed to sell Japanese cars.
they also sold a number of SD1s.... there have been some of them in my town i grew up, outnumbered by VWs, been just a few km away from Wolfsburg...lol!
Sd1s improved a lot by the 1980s. The early ones are (were) best avoided.
The end of the motorcycle industry should have warned them. But they didn't learn.
My late uncle complained when he bought his first Datsun, that they were better value for money and less troublesome than the UK products.
A shame the executives weren't as astute
You mentioned the motorbike industry in this country at the time.
When my dad was 17, way back in 1968, him and his friends all owned BSA bikes. And every Saturday they would have to fix something on them.
Then one of them did a terrible thing! Yes, he turned traitor, he bought a Honda.
My dad and other friends mocked him for this. Until one, frosty, scottish winters morning when my dad couldn't start his British bike and this friend passed by on his Japanese bike. Smiling 😊.
When bsa closed it's doors an American auction company came to sell of the machines. There first words were we have put the word out to engineering company's to buy machines. But looking around the factory we should have contacted museum's.
Datsun or nissan rotted in front of youre eyes brilliant engines but the body's just rusted hence why nissan dropped the datsun name
@@chucky2316 early datsuns had bmc derived engines
@@edwardkennedy9919 family friends if ours had the bigger Datsun in the 80s it was a lovely car but it literally rusted bits of rust fell off everywhere.but wow what a car. It had lovely velor interior.
I started work for BL Cars as a Finance graduate trainee in 1975, with the intention of staying 3 years to get some experience, and complete my accounting qualification. 3 years in the power train division at Longbridge, with me changing jobs each year.
Very interesting times. Of course there were lots of strikes, inefficient working practices, but also the result of decades of under-investment in in machine tools and equipment. Some of the machines in the toolroom dating back to 1912.
Fascinating going round the ancient forging factory, vs the newly done foundry, the new 'O' series engine line, vs the next door old 'B' series line. Plus the low volume 'E' series and the high volume old 'A' series lines. Gearbox machining and assembly, and small component machining in the automatic lathes factory (if you could see the far end of the building through the oil mist of hundreds of cutting machines). They spent money on a few things, but much, much more was needed.
they could have had the most efficient and productive workforce on the planet but working with ancient machinery to produce archaic vehicles was never going to be a winning formula
i visited the VW factory in Wolfsburg in the late 70s...clean air, robots and people working hand in hand...and building Golfs, 1200 per shift!
and this factory been already over 3km long!
George Turnbull was a VP for Hyundai Motor at its start and his half dozen engineers created Hyudai's first car, Pony. One of the Turnbull's engineers remarked how insanely quick Korean engineers were at producing prototypes. "What would typically take a month in UK would be finished and produced the next morning." - Edward Chapman. I am sure the Korean engineers were eager, hungry, and had something to prove , resulting in them working extra hard. However, the fact remains that what would get done in a day in Korea was taking a month in the UK. That fact alone is reason enough why the UK car industry failed.
Coming from the other side of the world I noticed that attitude amongst English people trying to get things done. Where migrants I dealt with were able with ease to fix any problem. Just buying a train ticket you notice the difference.Slow full of self importance over just getting it done as quick as possible.
And cost four times as much.
My dad had a cleaning business in the 80s and bought several ex Royal Mail Sherpas and an Ital van at auction for an absolute song and they took years of further abuse before being scrapped. I've heard other tales of how good their commercial vehicles were yet the cars were rubbish.
I never understood that.
Suppose with vans back then you didn't expect much refinement, so there was less to concern yourself about. Those vans were pretty basic.
As a child growing up into a teenager in the period covered by this video it seemed that BL was forever in the news due to strikes. Looking back it amazes me that BL held on to market shares of 30+ % for so long perhaps showing how loyal many customers were to the different marques produced under the BL banner despite everything 🇬🇧
The reason for that is due to how the car market being fundamentally different in one key area...most people people in particular the middle classes could not afford to buy a new car. Most people purchased their car second hand off a dealer and beggars couldn't be choosey. Most new car sales went to fleet buyers who were extremely conservative in taste and also very loyal to a particular manufacture. Only the wealthy or people who could write off the purchase of a new car as a business expense could actually buy new...the latter group were very much in the "Buy British" club. This environment kept many a bad manufacturer solvent and in volume production write through to the 1990's. In the 90s with changes in tax rules around company cars and also the consumer credit boom which allowed the middle classes to buy a new car they rapidly went out and purchased the new generation of stylish French and Italian cars (Renault Megane, Citreon ZX, Peugeot 306, Fiat Punto) that had modern technology and more importantly galvanised panels. It is worth watching the dealer training videos on the ROVR channel like the one for the Austin Montego to see the difference in the market: ruclips.net/video/g8t-Fkf7wYg/видео.html&ab_channel=ROVR
The car workers unions dug their own grave.
Work to rule, demarcation, strikes, and low productivity.
It's 30% market share was the combined result of countless BL brands and models, few of which came close to dominating any market sector.
I live 5 mins down the road from Leyland. It’s always fascinated me what a huge industry was once our door step. My uncle was a brick layer and got a few contracts on there sites. He was telling me once about a job he was doing there and a group of the BL staff was watching him work. Then one of them walked over and said “you’ve done more work in the last two hours, than we’ve done in the last two weeks”. Not saying everyone who worked there was like this. But my uncle did say they all seemed very disgruntled and militant. My Dads always said the unions was to blame. But thanks for this video. Very interesting.
i lived 15mins from Europe´s biggest car factory, VW Wolfsburg, in the 70s...
50 years later, its still Europe´s biggest car factory...
but Wolfsburg isnt in the UK...that i call a Brexshit benefit!
I lived in Leyland I remember as a child massive amounts of people flocking out of tge Leyland gates at end of shift. Most of my male relatives worked at Leyland. I'm glad LAP is still open producing quality vehicles but it makes me sad the old spurrier works is now an argos and a morrisons...what a pity.
I grew up with these cars and the idea that Morris made basic cars and Austin more advanced cars is only something I've ever heard in retrospect - I don't think most people really knew that at the time. I just remember that looks and reliability were everything - nobody really cared what went on underneath the bonnet as long as the car looked nice and was reliable. And therein lay the problem.
Top comment here 👍
"And therein lay ONE OF the problems" - there, fixed it for you. Because it sure wasn't the only one. I'm surprised I have any hair left because of my frustration with almost everyone involved. It seems some of the most effective people - such as George Turnbull - got pushed out
Stuck on a layby with the bonnet open and steam from the radiator! Or the fan belt gone? Get your garters off love, quick fix and on your way. Ah the good ol` days when motoring was a joy.....
Morris, ox bull on the bonnet going through a river ford, Oxford, made a more quality basic car. Main problem of BMC cars through was the tin cancer, and leaking engines - drip drip drip goes the oil. God was mild steel sheeting then so crap. I am sure it was a pressing problem at Pressed Steel, introducing impurities into the surface. And bare metal laying around for too long before paint treatment (strikes did help). A sorry sight. But Italian cars were worse, That's Life Esther Rantzen! Remember her whinges on the BBC? It was all political.
I bought a seven year old marina in 1981 it twisted and flexed like a boat the bonnet blew open twice when I was driving it once on the elevated section of the A 316 by jobs dairy driving with the bonnet folded over the windscreen just looking out of the side windows was fun luckily I didn’t hit anything
As an ex Longbridge worker and, after all my experience working in loads of other industries and companies, I can only say that the 'Austin' company was the worst company I have ever worked for ever. It was absolutely soul destroying and the dull and totally boring experience left almost everybody brain dead and numb to the core. One didn't care whether we worked or not and had no respect for the product or the company what so ever.
It's management, like its vehicles, was totally dishonest and untrustworthy, no wonder it was only kept solvent by masses of public money injected into it like regular blood transfusions into a dying man.
I sincerely believed that, knowing what corruption in the UK was like, that its close association with the gullible government meant it was being used to pay top price for companies like Triumph motors and the others just so the owners could fill their pockets before the liquidators stepped in to close them down.
Talk about being one of the biggest fraud operations ever. British Leyland was buying up motor companies using tax payers money and the previous owners were loving it.
As a contractor working on building the new metro line in late 1970s it was evident who ran BL ,it was Red Robinson and his fellow commie Coventry planted around the plant ,encouraged by the Labour party and workers who had no pride in their job and what they produced.Evident in Quality problems suffered by purchasers.
hi, can i ask you a question? Why there were so many strikes, because I can't really find a lot on the internet about actual reasons that led to organize the strikes
@@marcocartalli7503
Records show that there were no more strikes than in any other country or industry. It was the far right British media that fooled everyone into thinking that it was anything more serious than others.
The unions knew about the thefts going on with taxpayers money, we witnessed the huge pay rises that chief executive awarded themselves and the wastage and the management team trying to increase the pay difference. It was all orchestrated by far right extremist mainly in the USA and MI6 who's hatred of our socialist practices went against their beliefs.
Looking at the rules of the IMF set up by the CIA which forbade any loans to socialist countries.
Without our socialist labour government you wouldn't have the NHS or welfare state AND you'd definitely not have British Steel, Rolls Royce and the NCB and British Railways and cheap water and sewage and public health services or even Human Rights. The country would've slipped into a Augusta Pinochet style Chile long before the evil thatcher regime.
All now being destroyed by the Conservative organised crime government.
The moral of the story is don't believe everything you read in the British newspapers.
As a student, I used to clean the new cars at a BL dealership in South London. Not one of those new cars would have past an MOT. They all needed considerable remedial work, (Pre Delivery Inspection) before the dared let the customer have them.
Don't believe it. You are just continuing the run down. What was your job during your productive life? I am sure that will tell all. Peace be unto you.
I was on telecommunications for working life and travelled the world. And I will tell you this. The Datsun car company took much better pride in their product than any European manufacturers.
All new cars go through PDI, every single make.
Did the dealership understand how poor-quality those cars were? Or did they think they were genuinely ok?
It was very common amongst European car manufacturers to leave the snagging work to the dealerships. That is why the manufacturers paid 4 - 500 quid per car for this job. With regard to Datsun. You bang on the money. I was an officer on a British cargo ship. In May 1974, we were loading Datsuns at Yokohama for delivery to Longbeach California. The Japanese dockers treated each car as if they were the finest bone China. It was a pleasure to see. Contrast that to the cargo of VW beatles and Porches, loaded in Bremahaven, for delivery, to Baltimore US. Each car was pre thrashed by the loading crew. So the lack of care by BL employees was not exclusive to them.
My father quickly abandoned ordinary European cars when the Japanese cars came in the mid seventies. Simple, reliable, nothing special, but well equipped and durable. These cars finally gave up after 10 years because of rust. But in the mean time, you only had to do maintenance and fill the tank. He never looked back.
Your father is an intelligent man, you can’t beat Japanese cars, especially Toyota/Lexus they are masterpieces.
Marina + Piano = Perfection.
Remember buying used Austin 1100. As I'd always repaired my own vehicles, I found it to be badly assembled, difficult to repair/access and, on occasion, unreliable. That was the last British car I bought. Since the 1980s, I've only bought German and Japanese models.
drove German, French and now Korean cars...never spend a thought to buy British!
I'm reminded of a line from Fawlty Towers... "The British Leyland Concerto - in four movements, all of them slow, with a four-hour tea-break in between." :D
Excellent presentation! My dad always blamed the unions for the demise of British Leyland and the UK car industry in general, but your channel has given me a much clearer view of what actually took place. I am thoroughly enjoying your channel, keep up the good work!
Remember no company in history has ever gone under because of labour rights it’s always upper management that’s fucking up. Notice how France with its powerful unions still has a thriving car industry
I lived through the period and my father was manager of a small BL garage in Devon and I can tell you that the horrendous quality caused by agitator employees and their constant strikes is about as much as any company could endure, given the shortsighted government interference and tight purse strings, causing rehashed trash and spoilt designs, it was a dead cert it was going to disappear!
The unions decimated not only the British car industry but the engineering sector in general, and we must not forget the massive damage they did to mining and other industries to, of course we should not forget the labour party's involvement with the unions
Exactly right. The relationship between free commerce and unions is very troubling. They're ignorant of the fine line they need to tread.
Agreed. Read my main comment.
Owned a 1973 MGB for a while. Very fun car to drive, BUT- Got really proficient at rebuilding brake cylinders, clutch master cylinders, SU carburetors, distributors. Cylinder head was cast iron, and they all had cracks even when new. Grease fittings everywhere. Convertible Top was a PITA to operate, so I just removed it during summer. Lucas (aka The Prince of Darkness) electrical system was so bad it was the subject of many jokes. ( Why do the British dink their beer warm? Because Lucas builds their refrigerators😂).
I still miss driving it, though. And I owe a lot of my mechanical knowledge on owning & maintaining it.
These are brilliant documentaries. Thank you. The age old story of greedy individuals not willing to compromise. When will we learn.
British car industry attempting to claw it's way out of the cottage mindset, all the while mergers and management produce little forward progress. Very tough times for this country indeed.
Utterly brilliant and comprehensive content Ruairdh.
Documenting the litany of managerial incompetence that led to the company's demise for which , among more feeble minded misinformed and biased individuals, unions were blamed.
The names Lord and Stokes chieftains of incompetence, regardless of their born to rule attitudes, with their blinkered and petty methods of conducting business.
They were spoiled boys trying to do the jobs of qualified men.
This debacle recalls a famous military truism, "There is no such thing as bad men, only bad officers."
The officers organize the objectives, the supplies, the latrines, the vittels et cetera..
If the men are given what they need they do the job.
If not , their slaughter ensues.
Exactly what happened with British Leyland.
This was pretty much what Michael Edwards said. He could never understand why a production worker with 25 years of experience with the company had worse sickness provisions , less holiday and longer working week and less job security than a typist who had worked for the company for two years!
My wife and I having returned to the UK from Australia in 1976, went on the hunt for a new car. We looked at the MGB GT at a local dealer. We looked over a khaki green model, the only one left in their inventory. Bubbles in the paintwork at a join on the front nearside wing indicated rust coming through the paint finish. Not a good look on a new car, so we walked away...
Didn't Dacia and Skoda have similar problems? Anyone remember the Lancia Beta?
The japanese cars were better finished but rust got them just the same until the introduction of anti corrosive dipping
@@nickjung7394 "Dacia" had rusting problems after early '80's, when the made cost cuts. Before that, it had good or acceptable paiting qualty.
"Škoda"... I don't remember having too much rust problems on the rear engine ones. The 'Favorit' seems to be the one with problems.
I never had to weld skodas much ...Minis,Metros,Maestros truly shocking for an MOT ..😂😂
I was a HGV driver delivering parts too trackside on the the day it closed, a stacker truck had hit a bin with radiators in it and damaged them, managers had too stop the track coz of lack of radiators, the bosses came dow too view the problem!! Send the damaged radiators up they said we can cover the damage with the cowling and the dealers can rectify the problem, so sad
From about 1977 to 1984, I worked for a company that provided a company car.
Unfortunately, the policy was British cars only.
My first was an Austin maxi.
It had a lovely ride, and the hatchback was useful. Unfortunately it was nothing but trouble. Wheel bearings, overheating, head gaskets, and a poor gear change.
The gearbox gave out, effectively writing off a car that was only 4 years old.
That was replaced by...
Another maxi.
The problems the same, and again the gearbox failed, writing off the car, again, only about 4 years old.
The last car was a morris marina, basic, cheap, boring, but at least reliable.
The boss had an austin princess, his wife an allegro.
They were both frequent visitors to the repair shop
I worked in the motor industry from 1969 to 1973 for a component manufacturer & consequently saw some of the goings on at most. A fairly succinct summation of the Leyland problem,but I can assure you the others were not much better,however they were generally better organized & did not have government interference.
The Marina; yes, my dad had a Marina estate for his works car.
He regularly drove to various construction sites carrying flanges for pipe work in the rear hammering up and down the early motorways back… which were few back then.
It was a good motor as it took the pounding given… I think it was a 1.7lt engine.
He eventually bought himself an Ital; a Marina with a facelift… which he got rid off very quickly as rush poured out of the weld seams after wet weather… I think it was replaced with a Chevette.
His next works car was a Datsun (Nissan) Cherry…
And moving the corporate headquarters of a manufacturing company a very long way from any maufacturing site - a blunder that Boeing failed to learn from.
Excellent video. Although the Austin 3 litre did use the same doors as the 1800 (and Maxi), nothing else was the same as an 1800. The ugly front also was completely different, with a north-south 6 cylinder engine, which was also used in the MGC.
I remember my uncles Rover SD1 V8 SVO version, was nice and comfy but things were going wrong regularly unfortunately, because if it wasn’t for the strikes and poor quality later on in the 1970’s the styling was amazing and looked sharp on the SD1 , one day the glove box came off in my dads hand whilst we were being driven by my uncle in his SD1 to a family gathering and get together. Worst thing was the rattling boot on it .
Well, the SD1 was praised upon its release due to its sharp looks and performance. It only was about a year later that people actualy realized how poorly put together they actually were.
My Dad said his V8 SD1 was the worst car he ever had. Still looks beautiful.
I knew a trainee priest who once asked his parents to visit one of his parishes. His parents turned up in their new SD1 and we all went inside for the service and when we all came out the SD1 had burnt to the ground. It was replaced with a Range Rover after it was discovered that an excess piece of fuel line was wrapped around the rear muffler and this bodge finally failed causing fuel to leak onto an ultra hot exhaust. The factory worker chose to wrap the excess and not cut it . Legendary build quality.
@@w00df0rd It was a Car Of The Year
Did the modernised Rover 827 come too late, even if it was technically better (in terms of more power and features etc), and lack character by comparison to the SD1?
I find this very interesting subject. British Leyland seems like perfect example how not to run a company for many reasons. I think the biggest factor was that they were not able change anything or learn from previous mistakes. Thanks for good break up of the events.
they were chronically underfunded from the beginning, nationalization abated what was pretty much a done deal by the early seventies... no products, no company
I worked in the auto supply chain years ago, what always amazed me was when a company would be mismanaged to out of business, competitors would then hire that upper management and also end in bankruptcy, and the management would get hired by another competitor, rinse and repeat.
Some of them know what they're doing, George Turnbull certainly did Hyundai a good turn.
They were in the same union.....sorry, "professional association" or club!
@@carlarrowsmithGeorge Turnbull turned BL around though.
The substantial contract for Leyland developing and producing the Chieftan main battle tank is worth mentioning. It probably played a role in the British Governments decision to keep the company afloat for so long. The early versions of the Leyland designed engines for the tank were infamously unreliable, not surprisingly.
The Leyland L60 somehow managed to replicate the woefully unreliable Maybach V12s of WW2 Germany in unreliability (though at least the latter was built in wartime conditions when quality always dipped)
It would serve to be the Chieftain's worst weakness throughout its service
Yep. The Chieftain's Achilles heel - its engine.
My brand new Ford Cortina mk3 would only start when i got home after taking the bloody bus to work ! Bought a Toyota which lasted 20 years throughout the family
I never really associated Ford of GB as part of the British malaise. Were they going bad as well?
Hooray!
At last, someone has taken the trouble and time to research the facts on why the British automotive industry failed. Great video!
As the owner of one of the last Triumph sports cars made, a 1982 TR8, I can say that if build quality had been reasonable, the cars would have been a huge hit in America
would have....that says all!
Thanks for this insight in the mess that made up British Leyland; I've seen quite a few videos on the subject, but this is likely the best summary so far - very well researched. The way I see it, all problems started with the merger of the Nuffield Group and Austin to BMC in 1952 and from that point on, everything snowballed; by the 1970s problems had become so big that they couldn't be ignored anymore.
The merger of Leyland and BMH should never ever have happened as, how I understand it from this video, it was based for a large part on ego (Stokes wanting to be the captain of the British auto industry); how would both companies have developed, if they had remained separate? What interesting new models would we likely have seen from them in the 1970s and 1980s instead of the few they eventually delivered as a combine?
Third observation I increasingly also get is that all too often, BLs problems are merely blamed on workers striking a lot and when working, delivering poor quality. But that only a few note that there were circumstances (attributable to the management of Leyland, or lack thereoff if you will) leading up to that reality. Substandard working conditions for example in outdated factories, poor relations between workers and management (which again is mainly up to management to settle), ...
Again: thanks! Great work this.
You're absolutely right that the 'rot' started with the creation of BMC - there was a huge missed opportunity for rationalisation which meant that few, if any, of the potential advantages of having one dominant player in the British mass-market car industry were realised. It was much more of an Austin takeover of Nuffield than a true merger, which unfortunately meant that Austin's terrible financial practices were carried over to the new group. Austin and Nuffield actually dovetailed very well in a lot of areas - Austin had superior production methods, Morris had (much) better financial monitoring and cost control. Austin had better design facilities, Morris had much better testing/development methods. Austin had superior engines and transmissions, Morris had superior body and suspension technology. Had the creation of BMC been a true merger and conducted with a strong management plan to bring the best of the two partners together it could have gone really well, but it was too wrapped up in personal politics - Leonard Lord was out for justice after his falling out with William Morris, and lots of other ex-Nuffield executives and managers who had grown tired of Morris' "destructive criticism" management style had also found new homes at Longbridge. Wm. Morris himself was growing old and, without an heir to take over his business, was much more interested in his philanthropic activities than the future of the company that bore his name and so Austin, almost by default, became the dominant partner in BMC.
As for the two parts of BL - BMC (BMH as it was by then) was a complete and utter financial basket case that would have collapsed by 1970 without the merger. The completely incompetent management meant that not only was it losing money hand over fist but no one at the firm really knew how much it was losing. It wasn't until Leyland accountants went over the books in the lead-up to the merger that anyone at BMH, Leyland or the government really had an idea of how rotten BMH was as a business - to the extent that Stokes and Leyland then tried to back out of the deal. Leyland was only better by comparison but was on nothing like the solid and sustainable financial ground that Stokes had led the government to believe when the initial proposals for the Leyland rescue of BMH were made. Rather like Austin and Nuffield, the two elements were good and bad in differing respects - by and large BMH had excellent potential in terms of design and engineering but was woefully badly managed, and Leyland was better-run as a business but was rapidly losing competency in its engineering and production. As an example, the Austin Maxi was a bad car only is as much as it was under-developed, rushed into production too soon, was entirely wrong for the market it was supposedly aimed at and was badly sold and marketed to that largely non-existant customer base. But in itself it wasn't a bad car and (in typical BMC/BL style) later developed into a fairly decent product. The Triumph Stag looked great, was perfectly pitched at its target market, was designed and developed in a generally efficient and timely way, but was lumbered with an engine full of inherently bad design decisions.
And yes, it's all too easy and simple to blame 'the workers'. And they and their unions had a big part to play in the collapse of the industry. But labour relations are two-sided and, as you say, many of the long-standing grievances behind the appalling industrial relations at BL were - or should have been - within management's purview to solve. And it wasn't the unions that insisted on launching the Maxi a year before it was ready. It wasn't the unions that decided to put the Triumph Stag's water pump at the highest point of the engine. It wasn't the unions that decided the Austin Allegro had to have a square steering wheel or not be a hatchback. It wasn't the unions that decided to launch the ADO71 under three different badges and then completely re-launch the car under a fourth brand-new badge six months later. And so on. When properly managed and given well-designed products to build with proper facilities, the same bolshie workers who slung Marinas together in between walk-outs at Cowley also built the Triumph Acclaim.
Thank god for unions they saved us from the horrors of British Leyland 🙏 and cars made in england rust in peace
In Germany in the 1970s and 1980s people said mockingly "Herr, schütze uns vor Sturm und Wind und Autos, die aus England sind", which means 'Lord, protect us from storms and wind and cars that are from England'
I've been really looking forward to this video! This series is excellent, I love it, I look forward to every part!
As an Australian, I really do like the P76. Sorry to hear that its closure cost the parent company so much. I drove a 6 cylinder Marina (Australian) and it was absolutely woeful but went like a scolded cat.
It took a very brave, or stupid person to push any Marina hard other than in a straight line. Dangerous understeer. The P76 wasn't a particularly bad car for a first attempt into the large car market especially in V8 form, but the 6 cylinder E series engine was too small to compete with the competition. I worked extensively in those days on the E series engines, and hated them.
@@erroneouscode Last attempt of several disasters and as usual released only half baked
@@Tolpuddle581 The Chrysler Centura in 2-litre 4-cyl form wasn't too bad, as it was basicially the Simca 180, which became the Chrysler 180 when that company took over the business. However, with either of the 6-cyl Hemi engines in it, the extra weight further forward compromised the handling a lot and turned it into a lead-tipped arrow. There was no castor-action, so the bigger-engined cars didn't self-center the steering after a turn; there was also no power steering - all quite disconcerting!
@@chrisweeks6973 FYI, the king pin inclination is what returns the steering to straight position after a turn. Castor keeps it in a straight ahead position in forward motion.
@@brianlove8413 Whilst in essence I wouldn't disagree with you, I was referring to the action, ie the lack of self-centering on the Centura, not the actual mechanics.
This might seem a remote connection, but I think there's a parallel between BL's demise and the Brexit vote. Growing up in the 1950s, I slowly realised that whenever my parents & their friends mentioned another country, it was always in derogatory terms. They were not political extremists of any kind (Labour voters but sceptical of trade unions), they simply shared a deep sense of British superiority and exceptionalism. Their view of history focused on a recent empire and a very recent war - both signs that Britain was simply a cut above other nations. While countries like Germany, France, and Japan knew that their cars had to compete in a competitive global market, British manufacturers (both workers and managers) had inherited an unconscious trust that they would 'muddle through' and naturally come out on top. Of course, that's only one aspect of the whole sorry tale, but perhaps a significant one. The parallels with Brexit seem fairly obvious to me - lack of planning, arrogance, disdain for foreigners, ignorance of economic reality, etc.
I agree. A sense of invincibility, despite any evidence to the contrary.
An entirely unfounded belief that 'muddling through' is a proper substitute for comprehensive policy and sound planning.
Too true. It was so obviously going to happen before the Brexit vote. Hubris is the word for this attitude.
I was thinking the same.
You mean those people who voted for Britain to remain in the Common Market back in 1975? I really don’t see how any comparison can be made here, but then remoaners are always desperate to blame Brexit on something, even as far as a generation that was not even here, because they were dead.
I really don’t know how long it took you to think up this stupid idea, but it has nothing to do with the Brexit vote other than what is in your imagination.
Maybe you should go out and ask why 52% voted to leave instead of listening to BBC propaganda and jumping to stupid conclusions especially ones about the days of empire that nobody in 2016 had grown up with or ever known.
My favourite car history channel! I like the writing, the many video clips and of course, your perfect narration.
At 12.12...the Chap at the Desk looks exactly like The Cafe owner in 'Last of the Summer Wine'?😀
Excellent Video ..thank you
It is actually him, all the guys in that scene where they're sat around the table are actors.
Discovered your channel a while back and thoroughly enjoy your videos. Greatly researched, carefully produced content. Thank you for your continued dedication!
I used to work for a company called Letraset. A similar picture of poor, sloppy management and serious marketing failure! Interestingly, the Unions and Union reps always recognised the need for discussion. Those working without Union representation were treated very poorly, especially when the inevitable redundancies occurred!
Great 2 part series. Always enjoy your documentaries, informative and entertaining.
Here in the us you had the sinking big 3. While ford and chrysler were able to get through the 70s and 80s with new innovative product (reliability still a sore spot to this day) GMs hubris lead to spending the 80s and 90s releasing products that were out of touch with the market, low on quality, too many brands, and eventually bankruptcy. Every new car was a day late and a dollar short and they all had a fatal flaw, albe it styling, reliability, build quality, pricing or all of the above.
Thank goodness for Iacocca or it would have been the Big two instead.
@@willgeary6086 we had 2 plymouth reliants in my family and one became my 1st car. They were both reliable and lasted a long time. On youtube i saw a home video from 1984 of a guy showing his 1982 pontiac phoenix that he says hes gonna sell cuz its unreliable and you can see the 2 year old car is falling apart. Im just suprised gm didnt go under sooner.
@@willgeary6086 It might as well be considered the Big Two nowadays since Chrysler is now a European company after their mergers with Fiat and Peugeot.
@@VigilanteAgumon & also the remains of GM Europe; Opel & Vauxhall
@@mikemartin2957 Opel and Vauxhall were already bought out by Peugeot before their merger with Fiat Chrysler
The Marina was well named. You felt like you were at sea at all times when riding in it. It was a joke in Canada
very entertaining thank you. With alll its woes in the 2nd half of the 20th century it sometimes feels as though Britain, not Germany, lost WWII 😄
Germany and Japan were being built from the ground up, including their industries. The Marshall Plan put the once enemies on the front foot. The UK had massive debts and couldn't afford to modernise. I worked in the textile industry. In 1968 the boss told us that a new machine was to arrive in a few days. When it arrived the date on the plate said "Manufactured in 1935". No wonder the Italians wiped us out in the textile business.
@@febweb17 Britain was the biggest single recipient of Marshal Aid. Add in the machine tools that came over from the USA during the war, and Great Britain should have been set fair.
German production facilities were destroyed while the skilled workforce was reduced but remained mainly intact. As a result, everything was rebuild from scratch using new approaches and methods. There was no problem with outdated legacy processes and equipment, unlike in the U.K..
......at least they are not speaking German in London. Every other language but not German.......Watch Europa the Last Battle and you will quickly see that it was all a scam......
The Austin 3 litre was not an 1800 "with a revised rear end." It was a totally different beast. It had an inline 3 litre engine with RWD, in contrast to the 1800 "landcrab" which had FWD and a transverse engine. Even Issigonis disowned it. In fact the only thing it shared with the 1800/2200, was the mid body section and those dreadful doors. It was of course a sales disaster (along with the 1800) and difficult to see where it fitted in to the executive car market increasingly defined by the sports saloons produced by Jaguar, but also Rover (the P6/5) and Triumph (the 2000).
21:31 The Leyland P76 was a very good car, much underrated. You can still see them being driven Downunder.
Absolutely fascinating and well researched. Thank you!
So very well presented and informative Rudy!
Management with no plan and trade unions that failed to recognize how dire things really were. A perfect storm.
The employees spent decades believing in a lie. The company had so many brushes with death that everyone involved became convinced that the factories would never close because the company would never be allowed to fail.
All that remains of Longbridge are the famous factory gates, behind which lives an MG Motor dealership.
Selling Chinese electric SUVs 😢
@@MrValleyman77 Why didn't Rover Group sell to Honda? Apparently Honda weren't invited to bid for it. Land Rover products with Honda engineering practises could be great bits of kit, but oh well. Rover would have been a suitable substitute for Honda's own luxury brand Acura.
@@TassieLorenzo Yeah, some Japanese seriousness would have made a world of difference, and their design skills are proven, so... but it wasn't to be. sniff
I remember my grandma buying a Datsun cherry in the mid seventies . I thought it outrageous to buy a Japanese car . But she was a farmers wife from Yorkshire and no fool . She always bought Japanese after that Datsun switching to corollas. And there you have it . Personally I always thought it was strikes that killed the industry . Oh and the allegro . Va va voom indeed.
They rotted in front of youre eyes as did fiats
I remember a neighbour buying a Datsun 120y when I was a kid. I had never seen anything like it, compared to the 1100s, Alegros, Dolomites, it was beautiful. And in the cold wet weather it started. Unlike many of the rest.
@@chucky2316 and austins didn't?
Can't wait for part 3!
Superb Video thank you cant wait for Vol 3
I've been looking forward to this, thank you.
Thank you for making this video. I think I have learned something. Merging car companies is like a marriage: two is enough!
Thanks for another great episode.
Phew! BL was in some mess by the mid 70s. 48 plants! And the cars from morris and Austin even by 70s standards were utter rubbish.
How a company that had brands like triumph, Rover, MG and jaguar under its roof isn’t a powerhouse of the modern industry is nuts.
Maybe if the executives got performance related remunerations then these sorts of managerial cock-ups wouldn't happen?
Back in 1982 age 18 i worked part time at a car auction driving the cars in ready to be auctioned off on the block and every car mentioned in this video i have driven at that time and to be honest they were all a bag of junk ,the amount of times i had to jump start BL cars was endless and they were all depressive looking things too but once in a while a Volvo 240 series came in and what a difference in quality they were compared to everything British made .Could not afford one at the time so had to make do with a mk3 Cortina but soon moved on to Volvos ,sadly today 40 years later i cannot afford the new breed of Volvos so make do with my humble Ford Fiesta 2007 model which is pretty cheap to run and maintain but as for anything from BL i cringe looking back how bad they were .
The Volvos then had 30% British made parts, so it is not that Britain couldn’t do it, it was BL that couldn’t.
Did anyone else see Sid from the cafe on last of the summer wine and Adam Chance from crossroads in the clip from the Leyland drawing office
From a film about industrial relations, it's on RUclips somewhere.
“The Quality Connection “ or similar
I used to work for a sheet metal company in Leyland in the early 80s , they had a contract with B L to do service and repair work at the factories in Leyland on shutdowns, i remember removing a gaurd from a machine and three very large brand new open ended spanners dropped out .
A friend of mine in Germany bought an Rover in the 1990ies. After 3 month the window of the drivers door blocked. He went to the car dealer and the mechanic fixed the problem but he discovered an swastika painted on the inside of the door. He complained at the dealer and sued the company. The investigation found out that this was quite common on cars for Export to Germany. He as an Jew found this very insulting and this was the last British car he owned. He sold it after 8 month in total.
Oy vey
there are rumors that fish have been stuffed into doors or cavities in cars that were exported to Germany. things really got stressed in 1994, when the Rover Group was taken over by BMW. according to reports from the time, there was a real power struggle and tussle over competence between the German top management and the British middle management and workforce.
If I hadn’t lived through the back end of the failure or British leyland, I’d think this was a joke, many things they did you just can’t make up how bad they were. Rover and Jaguar going head to head yet being controlled by the same company, too crazy.
Leyland House was only rented by Leyland from 1973-1979, not constructed. It had previously been known as Marathon House actually constructed in 1960.
Just like Leyland, slap a new name on old tat
Absolutely excellent video 👍 thanks
Was once a brief and not so proud owner of a Marina. Dog or lemon, I haven't made up my mind yet
Great to see some excellent research fronted by a non-sensationalist presentational style. The whole story is a minefield but this was about as clear as it would be possible to make it.
I remember that the whole gamut of British cars from the mini to the Rolls were sold by Rob's motors in Cape Town. Every single one had a drip tray underneath the engine. Japanese cars did not need them as they did not leak oil. Same with British motorcycles. Shortsightedness of management and labour killed both industries.
Frenchman here and anglophile too. My first car was a Triump Spitfire Mk III (2nd hand purchase) my second was a Triumph Spitfire Mk IV purchased brand new: after 1000 km my rear axle had to be changed, 10 000km later my gearbox had a circlips issue (broke down, repaired incorrectly by the Triumph dealer, broke again, sold it. Then I purchased a Triumph Stag 2nd hand at 10,000 km and almost everything broke on it except the gearbox (rear axle, power steering, motor seized because of over heating). I still have it but every long trip with it is like Russian roulette game. After this I purchased Honda Civics, Accords. My son has a CRV that is now 930,000 km and still reliable (no tow-truck business card collectionj
Long speech to say, I tried real hard to use British cars but I finally gave up and did not tell my friends to buy British.
Must've been hell integrating all those different plants and brands
Yes I heard a story similar, when someone picked up their new morris marina the indicators didn't work when that was inspected the electric plug hadn't been plugged in behind the steering column,
There was a saying among German car enthusiasts in the 70s/80s about UK cars coming from "British Elend" - which is pronounced rather similar to "Leyland" (without the L), but literally means "British misery"
Ah memories of that working (soon to be not) hero Red Robbo and the great Strawbs track that was so so true, self destruction in abundance. Not to say that the lacklustre management were any different, or even worse.
When Honda stared building it's bikes and cars twenty percent of its profits went into research and development. What was the UK percentage.???. Even cheap alterations to a problem were ignored. The three litre is far removed from the 1800. Only the doors are the same. One front wheel drive the other rear wheel drive. I have had both and enjoyed them..
My father had a brand new maxi in the late 70s and I remember him fixing rust in the wings with fibre glass within weeks 😅😅😅
Interesting - but will you talk abot the trucks more specifically? They are often less wellknown but could be a vital parts of profit. The fall of the UK truck industry interests me but I seldom find good material
Leyland 500 engine?
Very interesting and informative.☘️👍
Excellent, thank you!
So that's why my 1988 Jaguar XJS project was a rust bucket!
British Leyland and how not to do business should be taught in schools!
All the sensible clever management people who couldn't say 'yes' to idiocy left in the late 60s moving on to other brands and make them successful is stark evidence of everything wrong at BL.
After years of success, when your flagship car is the Maxi you do have a major problem.
Fiat had similar problems back then. I heard that the Fiat plants in Italy, workers would only fit one bolt to the front seat instead of four, leaving the other three bolts in the foot well. They knew Fiat UK would finish the job for them. Great video. Thanks.
You are right. another worst example of massive problems was Alfa Romeo, especially the Alfasud. the workers in the factory, most of whom had no technical training, came and went almost as they pleased. as the factory was not finished when it opened, there was no storage capacity. so the steel rolls for the sheet metal presses were stored outside. the cars built from them were then simply painted over. it was not uncommon for new Alfasuds to have new doors fitted before they were delivered to the customer because the ones from the car were already rusty. furthermore were also problems with drafts coming through the sills into the passenger cabine. so they simply stuffed foam into the cavities, which then soaked up water and literally flooded the sills.
Every single one of Mr. Rudyard Mcveigh's videos is very well researched, and the editing is expertly done.
Basically the entire issue with British manufacturering, now and then, is that everyone wants a piece of the pie and their name in the sky and will sacrifice everyone under and above them to achieve it. That's why notable exceptions are notable as they aren't backstabbers trying to get a comfy pension and legacy.
The issue is this toxic behaviour is top to bottom in UK culture and infects every facet of the culture and economy. This even goes down to unions who actively hamper any realistic restructure of the businesses and don't personally care about the workers or trade being sent abroad as long as they get their cut of the gravy. Then coupled with share holders, investors and outdated and outmoded businessmen still thinking in 1950s terms rather than learning from the Japanese we trained for most of their post war engineering, since nothing they did was much more than improving on UK designs and refining them to perfection, every part of UK business collapsed during the 70s and the government just let it go due to the focus on globalism before nationalism which led to the 80s where anything of value was bought at rock bottom price and led to things like Fujitsu snatching up the International Computers LTD, that was years ahead of anyone else bar IBM.
Doesn't help that alot of said purchases were by corporations that were backed by national money like EDF and especially German motor firms.
Bottom line here was…every car was a Friday car…rust boxes on wheels and no one cared…the mini…had the same rust issues from day one until the day it closed…😅
Well you have to admire the consistency
My 1st car was a 76 BL Mini clubman. Fun little cars that ran really well in the super cold winters in Saskatchewan. And only having to fill the 5 gal tank once a week was super cheap.
Through the 70s and 80s I drove many of the Layland Ford and Vauxhall cars of the period for work. That was the reason I NEVER bought a British designed car in the next 40 years
The Morris Marina was truly terrible, but then most British cars were. You could tell how bad things were by just looking down my road at home. When we ariived in 1970 almost every car was British By the time we sold the house in 2006 only TWO families owned a British car.
I owned a mini, two Triumph Vitesses and a Triumph 2000. I found them all to be easy to drive and maintain. Rust, however, was a major problem! This, of course, was to be expected given the policy of "built in obsolescence. Interestingly, my type 25 VW suffered from a blown head gasket at 65000 miles (a known fault that had a well covered up recall throughout Germany and the US, but not in the UK. My second type 25 needed a new gearbox around 95000 miles. I also owned two VW Polos, both of which needed the cylinder head skimmed due to corrosion tracking. The difference is that most countries are not as self critical as the Brits!
Having posted already I've remembered 2 more stories. After the my dad's 1st 59 mini he had a wolsey hornet an elf and mini coopers. He had keep them for 6 months before he could sell them then make money each time trading up each time! Due to a growing family he ended up with a Farina Riley that nearly killed him due to NO nuts holding the leaf springs to the axle! He thought it was very "sloppy" to drive but accepted it wasn't a mini cooper s. His blood ran cold thinking about travelling with family in it. This was found by the dealer at its first service at about 1000 miles. He waited while it was done when a man wearing a brown dust coat came over to speak to him. He was VERY sorry and explained the problem, and made lots of apologies on behalf of the company. Brown coat man started asking where he bought it as it wasn't a local registration and couldn't understand how it wasn't picked up sooner. Dad explained it was a staff purchase and picked it up from the factory and the man who brought the car to him filled the tank instead of the usual 2 gallons as he was "one of them". The brown coat man (workshop foreman) had now been joined by 3 men in suits and they fell about laughing laughing! Puzzled and a bit peed off by all this said " I'm not impressed with you laughing (or something like that! 😊). They explained that they though it was a setup from the company to test them out and see how the delt with it because of the JOH.... Registration (Birmingham). Anyway they said it was one of the better ones! Dad replaced it with a mk3 Zephyr 6 then a zodiac having left bmc sorry if I've rambled on a bit but it still makes me laugh 50 odd years on. Ps dad did by another Leyland car, an SD1 in the 1976/7 (r reg) now that WAS A DISASTER ON Wheels! I could share that story one day😅
Fascinating insight into the rise and fall of an icon of the British car industry.
Curious to see at 12:11 the great comedy actor John Comer as a Leyland drawing office designer... followed by another comedy actor, George C. Cooper, as a Leyland customer.
Clearly, the demise of this once-great British industry was down to woeful mis-management, which gave the unions ample ammunition to further their political agenda.
Footnote: the Longbridge site is now totally unrecognisable, a patchwork of non-descript office complexes and a soulless shopping centre, complete with a Poundland and Gregg's.
'Nuff said.
I had a very old Wolseley 1800. Great car when it worked. Two steering racks, power steering pump, hydroelastic suspension had a leak and died, starter motor, engine mount died thereby knocking out the drive shaft, , varied electrical, crack in head which I ignored, sills replaced and they'd fill with water anyway, windscreen exploded, wheel bearing went. Happy days.
I worked in Trenthem on the mini track, guys used too break the chain that moved the track, normally on Thursday night so we cud play darts, I became really good at darts and did taxi driving on Fridays
While appreciating that this is all about volume cars it should be remembered that British Leyland also produced trucks, vans, buses, coaches, tractors, Land Rovers, off highway equipment, etc - these were generally large successful divisions that were used as cash cows to prop up the volume cars business.Some roots remain, eg JLR, Paccar, Ashok Leyland, etc, but if British Leyland had had better management with a closer eye on the competition things might have turned out better.
Land Rovers were popular in Australia then Toyota Land Cruises came along and showed what an off road vehicle should really be.
Barely, it's a match but no really any better.@@febweb17
I appreciated this discussion. One thing I'm struggling with is the "complicated web" you describe. It's particularly hard to visualize as I'm not at all familiar with British mid-century cars, or their marques. Most of your footage is archival, and I get that that keeps production costs down. But that archival footage isn't particularly contributing to the tale, except as atmosphere. This video series really would have benefited from some simple diagrams or charts showing which companies owned which marques, and when they were acquired. It's tough to get the details of the timeline from trying to follow a (fairly rapid) discussion.
Another great film.
The mini and his so called fuel economy. I had a Mini in the late 70's and early 80s, showing a normal fuel burn of 6-7 liters per 100 Kilometers. Today, my daily driver is a Fiat Cinquecento 170 from 1993, regularly showing 4-5 liters at most. And we are talking the about same engine capacity, but producing 75 hp as opposed to the 34 hp of the Mini. Fuel economy, my shinny metal butt.
I went to the Drews Lane complex when it was closed, most of the equipment was gone, I was there to clear out two of the canteens for the stainless.....when I walked through....you could feel the history, could feel the workforce still working away.....I didn't even know where I was or what the place did...was massive so I asked.
Phantasmal Britain.
A fast speaker who enunciates clearly, though not as fast as You Tube multi- tasker Simon Whistler. But that's quite all right. So much to stay in 3 limited time segments (chapters).
Through all of this, one of the points I keep hearing is about warranty claims and poor reliability. What actual action was taken to really take this problem by the scruff of the neck and sort it out? And it's not just warranty claims, it's reputations of poor reliability after the warranty has expired that also matters. This issue seemed to go on year after year after year - were they asleep at the wheel? It's as if the management were only tenuously connected with reality on many different fronts - just, absolute despair
I feel the same as you about the Range Rover now.
@@iainmclaughlan1557 really? Is it that bad?
@@herseem yes, they tend to be at the bottom of the reliability tables and they are a premium brand! If I was in charge I would stop everything and sort it out.
@@iainmclaughlan1557 to be fair, I thick there are two potentially confounding factors here: luxury cars h have more to go wrong than base models, and also tend to be bought by people that demand higher standards and are more likely to complain about things that aren't perfect. That said, their rating should be on a par with, say, Lexus.
@@herseem I can see your point. Yes, they have to rise to the challenge and this really is non negotiable.