Andreas, have you ever mentioned what your profession is? There are many DIY and so-called "experts" on RUclips, but your work is quite well presented and researched. Or is that just your Swiss genes?
+Allan Kobelansky In my youth I was a trained electronics engineer, but lost a little track during the "family phase". So, now I consider myself as an interested hobbyist.
Andreas Spiess As an experienced electrical engineer with post graduate degrees, I re-knight you as an "electronics engineer". Your work is beyond hobbyist level.
I think the critical difference between this test an cnlohr's test is that he used an access point as one end of the connection. This changes things rather dramatically I would assume since access points are powered and can create a substantially stronger signal than a battery powered device. I would imagine they can amplify weaker return signals as well, although I do not know that for a fact.
+Andreas Spiess I guess I always try to connect my esp to the internet for connectivity, so in my case having one side be the AP is realistic for me. Cool video, thanks for doing the test.
Awesome Video Andreas as always. I'm getting the same as you do. I think the reason why CNLohr's got more is because he took a Router on the road with him and that router has a high gain patch antenna on it. But other wise it would of gotten the same results as you did if the test was done the same.
+joseph chrzempiec (josephchrzempiec) Thanks for your fast reply. You are right about his antenna. And in addition, he just did something like a ping test. But anyway, I think, his results are very impressive.
Dear Andreas, Another intresting vidéo… as usual. I’m making some tests on a raspberry pi with an external antenna and results are significants : antenna is the heart of a transmit system! I was surprized that the position for a connector was on the board! With a few modifications (and sweat because it’s very small !), we can make some good tests about antennes. Thank you for your job. Best regards Jean-Michel
You seem like such a great guy, if you have kids they're lucky to have such a nice dad :) Also I love the way you say bye at the end ...makes me smile everytime idk why lol
+norm1124 Du bist ja offiziell mein erster Subscriber, der noch dabei ist (laut RUclips Auswertung)! Es freut mich auch, denn in so einem Video steckt ja viel Arbeit. Deshalb ist es schön, wenn es auch genutzt wird.
it is impressive that you can transmit to distance of 150m with only 3.3 volts. Maybe some aluminium parabola behind the antenna could even improve it in some direction.
Dear Mr. Andreas Spiess Thank you for sharing experience on ESP8266. As expert on RF design I like to help you to improve designs and demos as you presents. You can call me any time my Skype nissim.test see me also at www.TelnT.com nissim@TelnT.com Regarding the range test experiment you make: As you can see on the 1:48 minutes on the right top side of the red circular there is capacitor. This capacitor must be removed if you like to use the U_FL connector. See this capacitor at goo.gl/cYaZHF layout. The reason is simple: the maximum RF distance is based on good impedance matching the Microstrip (wire to antenna on PCB) to antenna must be 50 ohm. That Microstrip now is 50 ohm with the ceramic antenna. The U_FL connector is also 50 ohm without external antenna. So all Microstrip is 50 ohm But: if you connect external antenna to U_FL without remove the capacitor you get two antennas parallel to each other (the Microstrip “see” 25 ohm) and the Microstrip has to drive 25 ohm. ESP8266 see 50 ohm that end with 25 ohm. That is very bad. Just 33 % or less of the RF energy will be RF broadcast. Moreover will be a standing and return waves on the Microstrip that will reduce the RF energy out even more. Return waves will warm the ESP8266 and can destroy its final PA RF stage. Two antennas may effect and cancelled each other if they are in a distance of multiply of ¼ wave length (30mm). Placing the antenna on roof extend the distance since distance from ground do that. But making the antenna on the long metal fence on the roof may reduce or increase the distance. The long metal fence act as resonance antenna two. Since ESP8266 can work in several Wi-Fi mode. If you lock it to ST B mode, you will get +19.5dBm output power in 802.11b mode. See wiki.iteadstudio.com/ESP8266_Serial_WIFI_Module I do free Skype (nissim.test) help as part of my contribution to the society. You and other viewers are welcome to call. Dr. Nissim Zur (nissim@elinistech.com)
+Nissim Zur Thank you very much for your valuable comment. I will investigate later into it. It needs some work... I anyway plan to dig more into this topic during summer. We can keep the contact.
1. for the ESP-07 you are right. 2. Because the ESP-12 has no antenna connector, you cannot attach a antenna (at least, if you are not a well trained person with lots of mechanical skill. This is why I use a ESP-07 if I need an antenna (or the Wemos Mini Pro)
same thing on the wemos d1 mini pro..u need to unsolder and rotate the pcb antenna's 0 ohm capacitor to the disconnected ext ant port on board PCB and resolder(the silver blob in front of the ext antenna not the antenna itself)...so if u look at it is a bridge... wherever it is soldered ...one or the other..actually is easier on the 07 than the Mini Pro as you only have to remove the capacitor on the 07...on the Mini Pro you need to resolder to the ext antenna capacitor to bridge it..if u mess up too just solder a very small piece of copper wire, like inside of coax, works fine....but both the 07 and Mini Pro you are loosing massive gain...so look at it like your antenna is loosing gain from having an unneeded protruding antenna that is not the right size anymore throwing it way off calibration...
Hi Andreas, I have been watching your videos for some time now and they are wonderful. As someone else commented here, they are simple, nicely explained and very practical. And thanks for this one too. I have also been trying to find out the range of these ESPs in my house which is ground + first floor for my automation project, so this will help.
Found your video on research for external antenna use of esp07. As far as i know you have to disconnect the ceramic antenna, just remove the 0ohm resistor between u/Fl and power led. @1:47 i can see the resistor is still there, did you desolder it?
Hi, you can use a helical antenna to your modules and you will increase your range dramatically but it's directional, the longer it is the more directional
I have some material laying around to play with different antennas. But, unfortunatley, for the moment, I do not have the time. Subscribe and you will probably see a video in some future...
Hi Swiss Guy! I think your test proves more about Apple's policy around wifi than anything else. I have achieved similar results to Mr Laur (spelling?) using an ESP-01 with trace antenna and an Android device as the client. Apple have dumbed down their wifi reception because they don't want to operate in the shady -70dB (more or less - I don't know the exact figure) zone because they feel the bad network experience will reflect badly on their devices. So they rather let you connect only when the signal is a bit stronger and less likely to drop. If you repeat your tests with any other client device I think your range will double (at least). You may then also see more advantage with the ESP-07. Thanks for your always excellent videos. You have fans in South Africa... all my IoT friends enjoy your stuff. We have a request... one day will you tell us a joke? Maybe at the end of a video, just for fun ;)
Thanks for the update. Jokes are never easy on an international basis... BTW: Yesterday I met a very nice guy from SA in Amsterdam at the LoRa convention :-)
Hello. Thank you for this interesting video. Having survived the eighties (including some time as an RF tech), I think the bomb shelter policy is very wise. I often wonder about antenna efficiency and what difference a ground plane makes. I dismantled a WiFi antenna of similar appearance to the one in your test only to discover it was a straight length of wire, not dissimilar to the old quarter wave whip used on car roofs, etc (no base loading or such). They require the roof as a ground plane as you would know. There were base-loaded "ground-plane independent" antennae for use where truckers had non-conducting fibre-glass canopies or drivers who don't like holes being drilled in the centre of their roof so choose to gutter-mount. As far as I was aware, if they simply gutter-mounted a ground-plane dependent quarter-wave whip antenna base, it would propagate much more favourably in directions across the roof rather than omnidirectionally. If you mounted your SMA base on a metallic plate, I'm wondering if that might give different results..
Hi Andreas, really enjoying your videos, i'm a novice and you are doing a great job of explaining these things in ways I can understand - thank you :) Just wanted to make a quick comment, I believe the ESP-12E is actually the newer ESP-12F the difference in the PCB antenna is very obvious if you look it up :)
+blitzsss Thank you. You are a good observer! Until your comment I did not know that there is a difference beteween ESP-12E and -F. But you are right, they have at least a different antennas. Do you know, if they have other differencies? One is also marked Wemos, the others are marked Ai-Thinker. And I opened two modules for another project and discovered, that they had differen layout and also different flash chips. For me, as long as they behave similar, I treat them as the same. If not, we have at least a possible root cause for different behavior.
+Andreas Spiess Hello, sorry I do not know if there are any other differences but you might find this useful if you haven't already come across it. docs.google.com/document/d/1B06YzToSKxJ-tA1-AaTqacpzbxyexaV7Ick-ZtmvQj8/edit
Excellent info. For my tests...with ESP-01 on bed in bedroom, through wooden walls of house, I get > 400ft (120m). But, that's when using a Samsung Tribute phone and i would think the receiver in the phone has something to do with range. Same for your iPad. An ESP-03 in my latest video blew its ceramic antenna, so I removed it and soldered a tiny wire to the antenna output pin of the ESP-03 chip. Then fitted an antenna cut from another ESP-01...range tripled to similar to the other ESP-01
+slider2732 You are right. The antenna of the receiver has exactly the same importance thant the one of the sender. I do not know the ESP-03 but I own some ESP-07 with a ceramic antenna. So far, I did not check the performance of those because I like the -07 because it has an antenna plug for an external antenna
Thanks for the test, Andreas! I would be interested, how far the ceramic antenna on the ESP-07 reaches compared to the PCB on the ESP-12E. And you said, the ESP-12E did not work behind the house. What about the ESP-07? (with or without external antenna)
+Zebrahuhn I will anyway do a second test with new scenarios, especially I will replace the Ipad as a receiver, because other commenters wrote, that this might limit the reach. The ceramic antenna should have about the same performance because of its comparable size and no obvious directional effects.
I think he is in the "shadow" of his house or some other possible effects. In some rare cases the signal could be to strong and distort the input of the receiver. Had this effect on a moded Linksys WRT54GL. Everything worked fine if I was 20m or more away but I lost signal when I'm between 0 and 3m.
during initial r&d of some recent work i did using wemos d1 mini (esp8266 12-f) modules, i was able to retain a connection to the back office, through our front office door, and about 50 feet down the hall... i was pleasantly surprised.
Andreas, thank you very much for great work. I learned a lot from your videos. I made range test for Wemos D1 mini (with PCB antenna) but with ESP-NOW protocol .(Thank you again!) Robust connection distance is about 400 meters but I believe that it can go further. I will check. Receiver was 16th floor of a building and transmitter was at ground level. After your test, my test results seems to me a little bit suspicious.))) Let's say being in 16th floor can effect the range but what about using ESP-NOW protocol? Can it somehow extend distance? Thank you. Regards
Coax and connections at these frequencies = massive reduction in output power. Try to keep it as short as possible and solder when possible to reduce insertion loss. I'd love to see the same experiment repeated with the native board, antenna w/ connect + coax, and then antenna soldered as directly as possible. I really enjoy your videos - thank you - subscribed
HI Andreas, I work for a major Wifi Manufacturer, and in order to do Mesh WiFi at greater distanced, you need to increase the "Acknowledgment Timer" timeout value. This is necessary due to the increased distance, causing increased propagation delays in the round-trip "packet send and acknowledge" sequences.. So, you MUST increase the timeout delay for the Acknowledgement Timer on the receiver side, (he must reply with an acknowledgement) in increasing increments per kilometre of distance from the peer device.. Since both peer devices send acknowledgements of received packets, then the timeout on BOTH side must be retarded as well, equally..
what I would like to know is if you connected a really good GROUND wire to a high quality ground, and if you also possibly added a choke to the ground so that no spikes can make it up to the ESP8266, would this improve range. Radio requires that duality of sky and ground. If you look into the Tate Ambient Power module circuit, you will see that it must be grounded for best effect. The pickup of RF and conversion to power works WAY better with ground. Similarly, transmitting would probably be boosted if you had good grounds on both sides.
Most of these devices are battery operated and therefore not connected to ground. The antenna has to be optimized to deal with this fact, like in Smartphones for example.
Hallo danke für das Video. Ergänzen möchte ich wissen warum bei dem Test nicht gleich wie auf dem esp-07 Board befindliche Rainsun mitgetestet wurde? Diese Antennen sind noch ein Stückchen kleiner als die auf der Leiterplatine aufgedruckte Schlangenlinie. Wenn du dich etwas mit Antennen auskennst fragst du natürlich auch immer nach dem Strahlungsdiagramm, denn das ist dasjenige was den Antennengewinn ausmacht. Daraus resultieren die größten Vorteile eines Antennenwechsels. Da ich selbst nun auch kein großer Fachmann bei diesen kleinen Wellen bin hätte mich noch interessiert in welche Richtung die Leiterplatinenantenne und diese aufgelötete Rainsun Antenne strahlt. Es wäre schön wenn ich dazu Informationen hier bekommen könnte.
Very good test. I think putting ESPs right on top of metal fence would reduce their range significantly tho. As a multirotor flyer, I've learned after many crashes, that one should not get close to big metal objects while using any wireless band. Another thing is, I'd bet that if you were to use 7-8dbi patch antennas instead of the crappy ducks, on both ends you can easily reach half a kilometer.
+flanker I think, I should have a little more distance to the steel fence for the board. For the antenna, I think, it was not so important. But obviously, I did not look too much to that aspect and will do this in a later video. I already have some material coming (antennas, etc.) and I will try tu use also antennas with gain.
I did some tests with WLAN stations. Some could KEEP a link intact upto 200 meters. Yet, when at 200 meters, and you would disconnect, you could not reconnect at that distance. Disconnect/reconnect would only work upto someting like 120 meters.
if data rate is not important, perhaps you can try setting it to lower speed 802.11b, from the datasheet, it seems to transmit higher power and also it has better sensitivity with 802.11b. Tx power 802.11 b: ＋20 dBm 802.11 g: ＋17 dBm 802.11 n: ＋14 dBm Rx Sensitivity 802.11 b: －91 dbm (11 Mbps) 802.11 g: －75 dbm (54 Mbps) 802.11 n: －72 dbm (MCS7) doc.switch-science.com/datasheets/0b-esp8266_system_description_en_v1.4.pdf
+YewMing Chen You are right. I did not look at the speed of the transmission during my tests. I anyway plan to play again with the chips ans some antennas in the future. So, I will also look at the speed then.
As far as I know. To get an wifi connection for places like at the back of your house, you could use something like a reflektor to reflect the signal to the backside. As far as I remember about more than 90% of the wireless signals inside an appartment arrive by refelction. I read this a while ago in a book called "WirelessLANs" from Joerg Rech. May be a interestin information.
You are absolutely right. This is not only true for Wi-Fi signals. As Ham radio operators we e.g. use reflections of HF signals in the stratosphere to communicate worldwide.
I own a DSTIKE WiFi Deauther OLED V1.5S Board and it has the ESP8266 chip and it was able to detect my FritzBox from about 350meter (Fritzbox and Deauther Outdoor) but if I put the FritzBox indoor and I was outdoor then the range was 140meter. The connectivity can be always different because of environment. For example last month I lived at Frankfurt am Main and there I wasn't able to get my signal even from in front of the parking lot which was directly in front of the house.
You need to have the ESP-12 in the vertical orientation to get maximum range. This matches the vertical polarity of a normal whip antenna in the vertical orientation.
I agree with you that polarization makes a difference, But if one station is movable, it is not easy to align polarity. I used a IPad and I do not know the polarization of this device. And in addition, I moved it all the time. Many of my applications are similar and I cannot adjust polarization on both sides. So, I think, we have to live with what we get without adjusted polarization.
This is not easy because if you put them in parallel, then you only have 25 Ohm which would be a complete mismatch. In series, you would get 100 Ohm. So, you would need a imedance converter, which is not easy to be built on 2.4 GHz. BTW: The best channel about 2.4GHz antennas is: ruclips.net/channel/UCHqwzhcFOsoFFh33Uy8rAgQ
So totally impractical to have 2 chip antennas on one PCB? How does the ESP-7 support external and internal antenna concurrently? Or does the ESP-7 disable internal antenna when you connect external?
Thank you, that was very helpful. Just a quick question. Can we use a Zigbee module also for capturing the Wi-Fi signals coming from an access point? Thank you.
+Graham Gillett Thank you for this info. So, I learned something this evening! They are really very small and have to be fabricated very precise, I assume. I think I first saw one of them when I changed the battery in my Iphone, but never googled its name... For my eyes and my hands, SMA is alreay small enough!
Hi Andreas what would you argue is the effective maximum range for the ESP-12E in a direct line-of-sight scenario? With effective meaning that you connecting to the ESP and/or loading the webpage does not take an excessive amount of time or numbers tries to connect respectively.
about line of sight, i have a D-Link wifi router inside the house, and my phone can still connect to wifi up to 50m from outside i also my laptop can detect from rooftop and ESSID from 200m away, so it seems possible you can transfer data at a low bitrate at those long distances
Looks like something is wrong in your test setup how much current your power supply supports ? I get ~3,000 meters with external antenna and ~800 meters with a PCB antenna. DJ
+Andreas Spiess the receiver are a second ESP8266 with PCB antenna. Your results are really bad compared to a cheap 2.4G nRF24L01P module also. Something must be wrong any high power cables in the near air or power cables from a train ? May be you should repeat your test on a totaly different place. DJ
@@AndreasSpiess Hi, maybe the lots of amount and wide surface of the iron fence was the reason for the (possible) weak result. They say, that's one of the main reasons why wifi and bt does not work well in factories. I'm curious.
nice viedeo andreas,i clear all the valuable range site for pcb trace antenna and ESP without antenna.is these regarding to all pcb antenna have same range or different with version? thanks....
Is there a maximum antenna size that can be used? What if a high gain directional cantenna or even an omnidirectional antenna were used? Does this limit the amount of gain from antenna?
Physically you can connect any 50-ohm antenna to these connectors. But you have to respect the law. In many countries, it does not allow high gain antennas
I wonder if you could increase the range by using two ESP-07s with external antennas rather than just connected to an iPad. Do you think it could be possible that iPad's antenna could be one limiting factor? Also, are there external antennas with amplifiers? Two directional antennas pointing at each other would be optimal probably.
1. The IPad seems to be part of the limited range. 2. Directional antennas for sure would help, if your devices stay at the same place. 3. I do not know if external amplifiers would work. The need a certain power to switch from receive to send and I do not know if the ESP has enough. For sure, they would be illegal :-) 4. I plan to do more testing , but probably next year when it is warmer here. 5. A viewer suggested, that I should have a resistor removed if I use an external antenna. I do not know, how much influence this has.
esp-07 external and "internal" antenna seem to interfere each other, I red that removing the little cap helps to make signal better when you use an external antenna with it, maybe you can look into it too. You have all the good measurement equipment.
Andreas Spiess maybe you can make a little video about esp-07 since it's probably most popular esp with external antenna. To show the difference in gain with and without external and with and without the capacitor? :) You have the measuring equipment i believe, would be interesting. Just a thought.
A good power supply is very important. I've had lots of trouble with my ESP-01 that I have connected to my doorbell. Like connection losts and freezes. After I've added a 0,1F goldcap capacitor it works without errors. I think I've readed somewhere, that the ESP can use up to 800mA on a very short burst.
Hello, Please show how to connect an external antenna wire to a board with no antenna socket. How to solder to the onboard esp8266 antenna path, where the cable shield and its middle wire? Do I need to cut path and where to do it? Thx
Testing my ESP-12E with an ESP-01, I could communicate around 300 meters "Line of Sight". Switching to my Android phone and pad the range dropped to 50-60 meters. The phone and pad were more than 8 years old.
Very good video!! So, just to clarify the information regarding the sex of the connector being FCC-legislated due to some "fear of...radio amateur operators" , it should be pointed out that the changes to connectors is to establish a new industry standard convention for the purposes of recognition/compliance. After all, any technician wanting to work around connection issues certainly can do so if desired. But, generally speaking, technicians and engineers who might not be current or up-to-date about the fact that "other regulations apply", and who suddenly encounter connector reversal would certainly be asking the obvious: "Why?". But for the non-compliant-minded user, unique connector scenarios provide an immediate response by manufacturers to produce "adapters" Thus, anyone can simply subvert the sex change by using an adapter or even add a 'pigtail' if they so desired. The truth is that changing the connector doesn't accomplish any sort of deterent so much as it is there as a 'reminder' to the technical person (or not-so-technical person perhaps) that a special case exists. It is a further truth that connector variations (as with the SMA reverse sex variation) identify advancing technologies / units which fall under regulatory restrictions or operation apart from similar components commonly used heretofore (education lags production, as they say). We simply needed an obvious method of identification. Interestingly, these 'different' SMA connectors a but a small part of that convention. We have a multitude of various connectors with obtuse fittings including BNCs. Connector conventions were modified for this purpose long before network hardware was even a glint in the eyes of father WiFi. In closing, I think of this SMA sex reversal as a means to identify unique device operations to avoid bigger problems (like interference to other services). Historically, this need for tactile evidence of connection compatibility was never more vividly demonstrated than back in the day when pipes meant for carrying flamable natural gas were directly threadable to lines laid to carry water. The results were devastating. This would never have happened had the threads not matched. Be alert. Be safe. Be professional.
The technical audience had already decided on a connector -- "SMA". There were no technical need for two competing standards that do the same thing. Your water/gas analogy also makes no sense, because there's no danger in using SMA OR RP-SMA for what its designed for -- as an RF connector, they both do exactly the same thing, interface to the same equipment, and carry the same stuff. One is just more annoying. A better analogy would be two competing gas connectors, one of which is intended to stop you from frying eggs on a camp-stove, you can only attach water boiling equipment without an RP-Camp-Stove adapter. As for standards compliance -- many technical people will be licences to use higher power in 2.4ghz, anyhow (Eg, amateur radio licences, commercial licence). And these licenced people have to go through the trouble RP_SMA causes for no reason. Besides -- the fact RP-SMA was created to annoy consumers is clearly and nothing to do with 'assisting technical personnel' is clearly documented en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMA_connector#Reverse_polarity
Thank you. I agree. Further support that the premise stated in the video that " the sex of the connector being FCC-legislated (due to some "fear of...radio amateur operators)", is unsupported by the facts. I learned some interesting facts from your reply. Much appreciated.
thank you. I am about to start a project with the 8266 so this information helps me a lot. And capability is pronounced K-APE as in Batman's cape. :)respectfully
thanks for sharing, have you tested how long the iPad can connect to a powerful router to discard the iPad from the equation? I have been playing with a router on a farm and I have lower coverage when testing apple devices (iphone) vs other devices (a dell laptop and a samsung phone). I will test an esp8266 as soon I get to the farm, good open spaces :)
+Cristian Szwarc Another viewer suggested also the Ipad as a source of short reach. So, I will do the tests again with other scenarios. e.g. the ESP connexted to a accesspoint and also some antenna choices. This scenario then covers the case of a ESP as a data collector connected through the WLAN to the internet. Please publish also your results if available!
+Andreas Spiess hi, Today I was able to do a test outside the city, a nodemcu set as an access point with the demo page from the arduino examples. I was able to be connected up to 575 meters with my laptop. Sadly I was not able to test it longer because some hills. The iphone was not able to connect with the esp8266 after 80 meters or so
+Cristian Szwarc Thanks for the info. So, the difference between a phone and a laptop is bigger than I thought. I will try to use this info in the next test.
+Andreas Spiess at 575 meters the laptop was able to have a good connection but in an specific angle, the esp8266 was standing instead of lying, with the onboard antenna facing to where I was testing (no idea how much that affects the distance), I will try to test a longer distance and instead of the laptop I should test two esp8266
+Cristian Szwarc Please keep me posted. Antenna direction as well as place is very important at this short wavelength. A few centimeters can already make a difference. This is why it is not so easy to test.
Great video, I have seen 2.4Ghz are incredibly sensitive to walls when it comes to range and reaching your 8266 chip. Mine came with a 8bd small antenna, and although it gave me about a %10 increase in strength and range, its still small. I have heard you can make a large antenna out of a can, "Cantenna" ever heard of this? Would be a good video and possibly a massive range.
@@AndreasSpiess I habe a question for you how did you do the esp-07 a access point you need to programed it or it's already progamed for use it like a access point? (I want to use it like a wifi repeater why I habe a long range antenna and I want to use it like a repeater)
I have an antenna but I have the smallest wifi module. Can I hook it up somehow? The antenna's cable has a standard end with an inner and an outer part. Should I connect the inner part to the antenna and the outer to ground?
These antennas have to be connected to a small connector. If your board does not have such a connector it is not advisable to connect an antenna. The performance might be worse than in the original state. Both, the antenna cable and the connector are adjusted to 50 ohms.
...you should try connecting powerline networking from your router to your basement or anywhere ....also try testing it from 10km away to your home router
@@AndreasSpiess ...ok i agree that was stupid...but think ..let say if i could broadcast the same lossless AP of my router on the other end via exsisting powerline transmission 10km away with similar hz (repeater) , where it connects to the esp8266/32 does it not add to the range of my WIFI
I have a number of Amica NodeMCU boards that I want to use in a project, and I have programmed them with PainlessMesh, which works nicely. At the moment, I am unable to communicate with a module in my next-door neighbour's house through the joining wall. The board has the ESP8266 module on it, as well as a USB port and supporting chips, looks similar to the big, black module in your picture at the beginning of this video. Is it possible to improve the antenna on it? Problem is that the ESP module is soldered onto the board, so I can't get to the back of it.
If your module does not have a built-in antenna connector it is very hard to change it. So, the only possibility is to buy a module with an antenna connector like the ESP-07 or the Wemos mini pro, and connect an external antenna to it.
Thanks for your answer, Andreas. I saw www.instructables.com/id/Enhanced-NRF24L01/ and had hoped I might do something similar. However, I take your advice. Do you know of a polar diagram of the propagation from this type of printed antenna? I have two boards in my mesh, and I been experimenting by taking one board to a place where it clearly has difficulty seeing the mesh, but does eventually find it. Sometimes, it drops out of sync without touching or moving it, so it must be really on the edge. Then, I experimented by pointing the boards in various directions to see where reception is best, but I really haven't come to any conclusion. A polar diagram might help.
1. You can try the instructables. Maybe it helps. But maybe it does not help and you an destroy something. Both antennas are somehow similar. 2. The propagation differences of these antennas are very small. That is maybe the reason you did not find any. Many other influences like reflections, place etc. might have a much bigger effect. Be aware, that the wavelength on 2.4GHz is about 10 cm. So, a distance of 2.5 mm is a quarter wavelength which is the difference between a maximum and a minimum. If you change the distance between the two boards by less than 2.4 cm, you can already experience big differences.
Yes, your points are very valid. I want one module in my neighbour's house and one in mine, but there is only one wall separating us, so I'll try putting both modules against the wall. I tried leaving one in my office and taking the other to my workshop (about 30 metres + 3 walls) and it worked ok there. Great software. I looked at the source, and I can see that a lot of work has gone into it. Thanks so much for making it available.
Thanks for Your Project, I also tested my NodeMCU and built a car that runs from browser and Wifi. First it was running only short range like about 100m. But when I removed my NODEMCU from toy car and tested it ranged 310 m. :) Your tutorials are very good and informative. I am a professional Civil Engineer :) learnt Python and learning Arduino now.
I have tested this case inside my house... two ESPs, one send UDP packets ,the other receives. I confirm that the range is 16m/20m with an RSSI on sender of -85/-90dB with a percentage close to zero of lost packets. The same result if the two ESPs are on different floors. I have not tried it outdoors yet.
This is not possible by a normal user. The Wemos mini pro has a antenna connector and 16MB flash, and the ESP-7 have 1MB flash and an antenna connector.
+Masoud Tarar You can solder whatever you want on a copper trace ;-) But the impedances have to match. Otherwise the antenna will not work. And this has to be designed by an engineer and manufactured with tight tolerances.
A wifi connection is only as strong as it's weakest link ... this could well be the Ipad and thus you really should have used 2 identical esp8266's communicating with each other.
You can, but most probably, it will not work well. Antennas have to match in impedance, and this has to be designed by somebody with a lot of knowledge (and measuring equipment). I would not do it. This is, why I use the ESP-07 if I need an external antenna.
Agreed. I didn't know that. I looked up a few websites today and found that such a hack could actually make the antenna performance worse. Great videos by the way :-)
Do you know where I could buy an esp8266 with an external antenna connector? I can find the ESP modules themselves, but no complete board with a TTL adapter and all,.
Are there any other ESP8266 modules that can be fitted with an external antenna and have the >1MB Flash? On the ESP-07 do you have to remove the ceramic antenna to use an external antenna?
Remember that smartphones, ipads and tablets has really bad antennas inside, so range is short. If you can extend antenna from your tablet, you may expect at least 1 km range.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Great explanation of SMA and RP-SMA thrown in there. Thanks for all the great esp8266 videos
You're welcome. I was amused when I read about the RP story. That's why I included it.
@@AndreasSpiess pö
Andreas, have you ever mentioned what your profession is? There are many DIY and so-called "experts" on RUclips, but your work is quite well presented and researched. Or is that just your Swiss genes?
+Allan Kobelansky In my youth I was a trained electronics engineer, but lost a little track during the "family phase". So, now I consider myself as an interested hobbyist.
Andreas Spiess As an experienced electrical engineer with post graduate degrees, I re-knight you as an "electronics engineer". Your work is beyond hobbyist level.
+Allan Kobelansky Thanks! :-)
I'm with you Allan Kobelansky. There is a very clear difference!
why do you wanna marry him?
You always have great videos that I very much enjoy, thank you Andreas.
+Graviton_144 Grav Thank you for your nice comment!
"Thank GOD", and thank you for your support and time 😉 This video is VERY interesting and useful 😎
You are welcome!
Wow - you answer my questions even before I ask them. You have an amazing suite of videos - thank you!
And this answer was produced a long time ago. I hope I will be able to add another chapter to this topic soon...
@@AndreasSpiess good work
These videos are so interesting to hobbyists and life long learners.
I’m tempted to create a LORA setup with yagi antennas to improve the range.
You can watch my LoRa videos and then decide if this helps.
Great info. Plus your house looks gorgeous. I mean, an undergound bunker _and_ a roof garden? That's just amazing.
The house is very small. And the bunker/garage is for the more than 100 other families living in the same estate. But it is ok for us...
I think the critical difference between this test an cnlohr's test is that he used an access point as one end of the connection. This changes things rather dramatically I would assume since access points are powered and can create a substantially stronger signal than a battery powered device. I would imagine they can amplify weaker return signals as well, although I do not know that for a fact.
I did not want to have a record as cnlohr. I just wanted to test a real scenario. cnlohr's work, however, is very interesting!
+Andreas Spiess I guess I always try to connect my esp to the internet for connectivity, so in my case having one side be the AP is realistic for me. Cool video, thanks for doing the test.
a battery powered device isn't powered??
Awesome Video Andreas as always. I'm getting the same as you do. I think the reason why CNLohr's got more is because he took a Router on the road with him and that router has a high gain patch antenna on it. But other wise it would of gotten the same results as you did if the test was done the same.
+joseph chrzempiec (josephchrzempiec) Thanks for your fast reply. You are right about his antenna. And in addition, he just did something like a ping test. But anyway, I think, his results are very impressive.
If can get that range would be awesome. But in this case it will need a boost from a external antenna and some kind of booster i would think.
Dear Andreas,
Another intresting vidéo… as usual. I’m making some tests on a raspberry pi with an external antenna and results are significants : antenna is the heart of a transmit system! I was surprized that the position for a connector was on the board! With a few modifications (and sweat because it’s very small !), we can make some good tests about antennes.
Thank you for your job.
Best regards
Jean-Michel
Glad you enjoy experimenting with antennas. You find many other videos about antennas on this channel, BTW...
You seem like such a great guy, if you have kids they're lucky to have such a nice dad :)
Also I love the way you say bye at the end ...makes me smile everytime idk why lol
Thank you for your nice words! I will tell it to my kids ;-)
I like your work, but I love CNLohr's work.
:-)
'Jeff Beck Group' was great work.
Gratulation für die bald 1'000 Abonnenten.
+norm1124 Du bist ja offiziell mein erster Subscriber, der noch dabei ist (laut RUclips Auswertung)! Es freut mich auch, denn in so einem Video steckt ja viel Arbeit. Deshalb ist es schön, wenn es auch genutzt wird.
+Andreas Spiess Echt? I feel very honored Sir.
+norm1124 Das kannst Du Dir zuschreiben. Ich habe da ja nichts beigetragen...
it is impressive that you can transmit to distance of 150m with only 3.3 volts. Maybe some aluminium parabola behind the antenna could even improve it in some direction.
If you are interested in distance with 3.3 volt I suggest you watch my world record or my satellite video...
Thank's for overview!
You are welcome!
👏 noob here, and wanted to say thank you for all of the informational videos
Glad you like them!
Dear Mr. Andreas Spiess
Thank you for sharing experience on ESP8266.
As expert on RF design I like to help you to improve designs and demos as you presents.
You can call me any time my Skype nissim.test see me also at www.TelnT.com nissim@TelnT.com
Regarding the range test experiment you make:
As you can see on the 1:48 minutes on the right top side of the red circular there is capacitor.
This capacitor must be removed if you like to use the U_FL connector.
See this capacitor at goo.gl/cYaZHF layout.
The reason is simple: the maximum RF distance is based on good impedance matching the Microstrip (wire to antenna on PCB) to antenna must be 50 ohm.
That Microstrip now is 50 ohm with the ceramic antenna. The U_FL connector is also 50 ohm without external antenna. So all Microstrip is 50 ohm
But: if you connect external antenna to U_FL without remove the capacitor you get two antennas parallel to each other (the Microstrip “see” 25 ohm) and the Microstrip has to drive 25 ohm. ESP8266 see 50 ohm that end with 25 ohm.
That is very bad. Just 33 % or less of the RF energy will be RF broadcast.
Moreover will be a standing and return waves on the Microstrip that will reduce the RF energy out even more. Return waves will warm the ESP8266 and can destroy its final PA RF stage.
Two antennas may effect and cancelled each other if they are in a distance of multiply of ¼ wave length (30mm).
Placing the antenna on roof extend the distance since distance from ground do that. But making the antenna on the long metal fence on the roof may reduce or increase the distance. The long metal fence act as resonance antenna two.
Since ESP8266 can work in several Wi-Fi mode. If you lock it to ST B mode, you will get +19.5dBm output power in 802.11b mode. See wiki.iteadstudio.com/ESP8266_Serial_WIFI_Module
I do free Skype (nissim.test) help as part of my contribution to the society.
You and other viewers are welcome to call.
Dr. Nissim Zur (nissim@elinistech.com)
+Nissim Zur Thank you very much for your valuable comment. I will investigate later into it. It needs some work... I anyway plan to dig more into this topic during summer. We can keep the contact.
1. for the ESP-07 you are right.
2. Because the ESP-12 has no antenna connector, you cannot attach a antenna (at least, if you are not a well trained person with lots of mechanical skill. This is why I use a ESP-07 if I need an antenna (or the Wemos Mini Pro)
same thing on the wemos d1 mini pro..u need to unsolder and rotate the pcb antenna's 0 ohm capacitor to the disconnected ext ant port on board PCB and resolder(the silver blob in front of the ext antenna not the antenna itself)...so if u look at it is a bridge... wherever it is soldered ...one or the other..actually is easier on the 07 than the Mini Pro as you only have to remove the capacitor on the 07...on the Mini Pro you need to resolder to the ext antenna capacitor to bridge it..if u mess up too just solder a very small piece of copper wire, like inside of coax, works fine....but both the 07 and Mini Pro you are loosing massive gain...so look at it like your antenna is loosing gain from having an unneeded protruding antenna that is not the right size anymore throwing it way off calibration...
Hi Andreas, I have been watching your videos for some time now and they are wonderful. As someone else commented here, they are simple, nicely explained and very practical. And thanks for this one too. I have also been trying to find out the range of these ESPs in my house which is ground + first floor for my automation project, so this will help.
Thanks for your nice words! In-house, the range depends of course from many things...
My test with pcb antena 500m. Set to b mode and increase tx power to max :)
Thanks for the feedback. I think, the "receiving" station is also important and the Ipad I used is probably not the best...
Very well explained!I was able to get 50m with a clear line of sight on the esp8266-01.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Found your video on research for external antenna use of esp07. As far as i know you have to disconnect the ceramic antenna, just remove the 0ohm resistor between u/Fl and power led. @1:47 i can see the resistor is still there, did you desolder it?
When I did this video, I did not know, but a viewer wrote it in the comments. I have to try this in a future video.
yep you have to remove it
Welcher Wiederstand wäre das?
Thanks for sharing. Nice video.
You are welcome!
Bro you are in my head. I have a question and you already have a video. You are Awsome
Cool!
Esp32 about the same range? Cause I’m working on a drone dropper for the Dji mini 2. Got the servo running using a webpage to control it.
@@grimtagnbag Yes
I didn't know about the bomb shelter thing..
This is so special I thougt, I mention it in my video...
me neither
Neither me ! Thanks !
Hi, you can use a helical antenna to your modules and you will increase your range dramatically but it's directional, the longer it is the more directional
I have some material laying around to play with different antennas. But, unfortunatley, for the moment, I do not have the time. Subscribe and you will probably see a video in some future...
Hi Swiss Guy! I think your test proves more about Apple's policy around wifi than anything else. I have achieved similar results to Mr Laur (spelling?) using an ESP-01 with trace antenna and an Android device as the client. Apple have dumbed down their wifi reception because they don't want to operate in the shady -70dB (more or less - I don't know the exact figure) zone because they feel the bad network experience will reflect badly on their devices. So they rather let you connect only when the signal is a bit stronger and less likely to drop. If you repeat your tests with any other client device I think your range will double (at least). You may then also see more advantage with the ESP-07. Thanks for your always excellent videos. You have fans in South Africa... all my IoT friends enjoy your stuff. We have a request... one day will you tell us a joke? Maybe at the end of a video, just for fun ;)
Thanks for the update.
Jokes are never easy on an international basis... BTW: Yesterday I met a very nice guy from SA in Amsterdam at the LoRa convention :-)
very descriptive, thumbs up!
+Dian Dixon Thanks!
Thanks for sharing!
+aguaviva You are welcome
Hello. Thank you for this interesting video. Having survived the eighties (including some time as an RF tech), I think the bomb shelter policy is very wise. I often wonder about antenna efficiency and what difference a ground plane makes. I dismantled a WiFi antenna of similar appearance to the one in your test only to discover it was a straight length of wire, not dissimilar to the old quarter wave whip used on car roofs, etc (no base loading or such). They require the roof as a ground plane as you would know. There were base-loaded "ground-plane independent" antennae for use where truckers had non-conducting fibre-glass canopies or drivers who don't like holes being drilled in the centre of their roof so choose to gutter-mount. As far as I was aware, if they simply gutter-mounted a ground-plane dependent quarter-wave whip antenna base, it would propagate much more favourably in directions across the roof rather than omnidirectionally. If you mounted your SMA base on a metallic plate, I'm wondering if that might give different results..
In the meantime I made a few videos about antennas, mainly under the topic LoRa, if you are interested. There you also see the influence of ground.
Thanks. I've only just discovered your channel and got here by searching "esp8266" - I've been having hours of fun with those things..
There are quite a few videos on 8266 as well as on the newer ESP32 on this channel ;-) Tomorrow the next one.
Hi Andreas, really enjoying your videos, i'm a novice and you are doing a great job of explaining these things in ways I can understand - thank you :) Just wanted to make a quick comment, I believe the ESP-12E is actually the newer ESP-12F the difference in the PCB antenna is very obvious if you look it up :)
+blitzsss Thank you. You are a good observer! Until your comment I did not know that there is a difference beteween ESP-12E and -F. But you are right, they have at least a different antennas. Do you know, if they have other differencies? One is also marked Wemos, the others are marked Ai-Thinker. And I opened two modules for another project and discovered, that they had differen layout and also different flash chips.
For me, as long as they behave similar, I treat them as the same. If not, we have at least a possible root cause for different behavior.
+Andreas Spiess Hello, sorry I do not know if there are any other differences but you might find this useful if you haven't already come across it.
docs.google.com/document/d/1B06YzToSKxJ-tA1-AaTqacpzbxyexaV7Ick-ZtmvQj8/edit
+blitzsss Thanks for the link. I did not know this document.
Excellent info.
For my tests...with ESP-01 on bed in bedroom, through wooden walls of house, I get > 400ft (120m). But, that's when using a Samsung Tribute phone and i would think the receiver in the phone has something to do with range. Same for your iPad.
An ESP-03 in my latest video blew its ceramic antenna, so I removed it and soldered a tiny wire to the antenna output pin of the ESP-03 chip. Then fitted an antenna cut from another ESP-01...range tripled to similar to the other ESP-01
+slider2732 You are right. The antenna of the receiver has exactly the same importance thant the one of the sender.
I do not know the ESP-03 but I own some ESP-07 with a ceramic antenna. So far, I did not check the performance of those because I like the -07 because it has an antenna plug for an external antenna
Thanks for the test, Andreas!
I would be interested, how far the ceramic antenna on the ESP-07 reaches compared to the PCB on the ESP-12E.
And you said, the ESP-12E did not work behind the house. What about the ESP-07? (with or without external antenna)
+Zebrahuhn I will anyway do a second test with new scenarios, especially I will replace the Ipad as a receiver, because other commenters wrote, that this might limit the reach. The ceramic antenna should have about the same performance because of its comparable size and no obvious directional effects.
I think he is in the "shadow" of his house or some other possible effects. In some rare cases the signal could be to strong and distort the input of the receiver. Had this effect on a moded Linksys WRT54GL. Everything worked fine if I was 20m or more away but I lost signal when I'm between 0 and 3m.
during initial r&d of some recent work i did using wemos d1 mini (esp8266 12-f) modules, i was able to retain a connection to the back office, through our front office door, and about 50 feet down the hall... i was pleasantly surprised.
If you have some sort of „line of sight“, these small modules can bridge quits a distance...
Andreas, thank you very much for great work. I learned a lot from your videos. I made range test for Wemos D1 mini (with PCB antenna) but with ESP-NOW protocol .(Thank you again!) Robust connection distance is about 400 meters but I believe that it can go further. I will check. Receiver was 16th floor of a building and transmitter was at ground level. After your test, my test results seems to me a little bit suspicious.))) Let's say being in 16th floor can effect the range but what about using ESP-NOW protocol? Can it somehow extend distance? Thank you. Regards
I think the Ipad was not the best choice. 400 or more meters seem to be ok for me.
Nice analogy between 2.2GHz and light beams
+Spentamanyu Thanks!
Andreas, Thanks...
You are welcome!
Coax and connections at these frequencies = massive reduction in output power. Try to keep it as short as possible and solder when possible to reduce insertion loss. I'd love to see the same experiment repeated with the native board, antenna w/ connect + coax, and then antenna soldered as directly as possible. I really enjoy your videos - thank you - subscribed
In the meantime, I made a few videos about wireless and antennas where I also suggest to avoid any cables.
Can you give the exact diagram of connection with node mcu and wifi antenna
Buy a module with an antenna connector as I did in this video.
HI Andreas, I work for a major Wifi Manufacturer, and in order to do Mesh WiFi at greater distanced, you need to increase the "Acknowledgment Timer" timeout value.
This is necessary due to the increased distance, causing increased propagation delays in the round-trip "packet send and acknowledge" sequences..
So, you MUST increase the timeout delay for the Acknowledgement Timer on the receiver side, (he must reply with an acknowledgement) in increasing increments per kilometre of distance from the peer device.. Since both peer devices send acknowledgements of received packets, then the timeout on BOTH side must be retarded as well, equally..
Thank you for your tip! I will try it next time...
Can you tell me how you connect esp8266 with antenna, if possible please give me the diagram
Easy: Buy a module with an antenna connector as I did in this video.
what I would like to know is if you connected a really good GROUND wire to a high quality ground, and if you also possibly added a choke to the ground so that no spikes can make it up to the ESP8266, would this improve range. Radio requires that duality of sky and ground. If you look into the Tate Ambient Power module circuit, you will see that it must be grounded for best effect. The pickup of RF and conversion to power works WAY better with ground. Similarly, transmitting would probably be boosted if you had good grounds on both sides.
Most of these devices are battery operated and therefore not connected to ground. The antenna has to be optimized to deal with this fact, like in Smartphones for example.
it might be worth experimenting. how much of the signal is attenuated because of a lack of connection to earth ground?
Hallo danke für das Video.
Ergänzen möchte ich wissen warum bei dem Test nicht gleich wie auf dem esp-07 Board befindliche Rainsun mitgetestet wurde?
Diese Antennen sind noch ein Stückchen kleiner als die auf der Leiterplatine aufgedruckte Schlangenlinie.
Wenn du dich etwas mit Antennen auskennst fragst du natürlich auch immer nach dem Strahlungsdiagramm, denn das ist dasjenige was den Antennengewinn ausmacht. Daraus resultieren die größten Vorteile eines Antennenwechsels. Da ich selbst nun auch kein großer Fachmann bei diesen kleinen Wellen bin hätte mich noch interessiert in welche Richtung die Leiterplatinenantenne und diese aufgelötete Rainsun Antenne strahlt.
Es wäre schön wenn ich dazu Informationen hier bekommen könnte.
Solche kleinen Antennen habe keine starke Richtwirkung (auch wenn das auf Diagrammen so aussieht)
Can i get the diagram, how you connect node mcu with antenna
Just buy a module with an antenna connector as I did in this video.
Неплохой результат для прямой видимости :)
I agree!
Very good test. I think putting ESPs right on top of metal fence would reduce their range significantly tho. As a multirotor flyer, I've learned after many crashes, that one should not get close to big metal objects while using any wireless band.
Another thing is, I'd bet that if you were to use 7-8dbi patch antennas instead of the crappy ducks, on both ends you can easily reach half a kilometer.
+flanker I think, I should have a little more distance to the steel fence for the board. For the antenna, I think, it was not so important. But obviously, I did not look too much to that aspect and will do this in a later video. I already have some material coming (antennas, etc.) and I will try tu use also antennas with gain.
Andreas Spiess I'd like to see that. Thanks.
agree with you flanker , and test range with iPad ? really? omg . iPad antenna ?
I did some tests with WLAN stations. Some could KEEP a link intact upto 200 meters. Yet, when at 200 meters, and you would disconnect, you could not reconnect at that distance.
Disconnect/reconnect would only work upto someting like 120 meters.
Good Information. Thank you.
if data rate is not important, perhaps you can try setting it to lower speed 802.11b, from the datasheet, it seems to transmit higher power and also it has better sensitivity with 802.11b.
Tx power
802.11 b: ＋20 dBm
802.11 g: ＋17 dBm
802.11 n: ＋14 dBm
Rx Sensitivity
802.11 b: －91 dbm (11 Mbps)
802.11 g: －75 dbm (54 Mbps)
802.11 n: －72 dbm (MCS7)
doc.switch-science.com/datasheets/0b-esp8266_system_description_en_v1.4.pdf
+YewMing Chen You are right. I did not look at the speed of the transmission during my tests. I anyway plan to play again with the chips ans some antennas in the future. So, I will also look at the speed then.
Hi Andreas! Did you removed the connection to the ceramic antenna in the ESP-07 so you can work only with de external one?
I did not do it. But you should
As far as I know. To get an wifi connection for places like at the back of your house, you could use something like a reflektor to reflect the signal to the backside. As far as I remember about more than 90% of the wireless signals inside an appartment arrive by refelction. I read this a while ago in a book called "WirelessLANs" from Joerg Rech. May be a interestin information.
You are absolutely right. This is not only true for Wi-Fi signals. As Ham radio operators we e.g. use reflections of HF signals in the stratosphere to communicate worldwide.
Thanks for sharing :-), Good insigth
You are welcome!
How did you connect the externel antenna to esp8266 using esp e07?
The ESP-07 has an antenna connector.
I own a DSTIKE WiFi Deauther OLED V1.5S Board and it has the ESP8266 chip and it was able to detect my FritzBox from about 350meter (Fritzbox and Deauther Outdoor) but if I put the FritzBox indoor and I was outdoor then the range was 140meter.
The connectivity can be always different because of environment. For example last month I lived at Frankfurt am Main and there I wasn't able to get my signal even from in front of the parking lot which was directly in front of the house.
I have already assumed that the signal transmission related to the temperature too. And I see your comment. Thanks.
Impressive!
Thank you!
You need to have the ESP-12 in the vertical orientation to get maximum range. This matches the vertical polarity of a normal whip antenna in the vertical orientation.
I agree with you that polarization makes a difference, But if one station is movable, it is not easy to align polarity. I used a IPad and I do not know the polarization of this device. And in addition, I moved it all the time. Many of my applications are similar and I cannot adjust polarization on both sides. So, I think, we have to live with what we get without adjusted polarization.
Is it possible to have a second Rainsun chip antenna rotated 90-deg in place of the u.FL connector? That way both polarities are covered on-chip.
This is not easy because if you put them in parallel, then you only have 25 Ohm which would be a complete mismatch. In series, you would get 100 Ohm. So, you would need a imedance converter, which is not easy to be built on 2.4 GHz.
BTW: The best channel about 2.4GHz antennas is: ruclips.net/channel/UCHqwzhcFOsoFFh33Uy8rAgQ
So totally impractical to have 2 chip antennas on one PCB? How does the ESP-7 support external and internal antenna concurrently? Or does the ESP-7 disable internal antenna when you connect external?
+George Ou You have to unsolder a component, if you want to use the external antenna. But I didn't know this when I made the video. A viewer told me
thanks a lot!
You are welcome!
Thank you, that was very helpful.
Just a quick question. Can we use a Zigbee module also for capturing the Wi-Fi signals coming from an access point?
Thank you.
No. They are different
Out of interest the little coaxial connector you referred to is a U.Fl
+Graham Gillett Thank you for this info. So, I learned something this evening! They are really very small and have to be fabricated very precise, I assume. I think I first saw one of them when I changed the battery in my Iphone, but never googled its name...
For my eyes and my hands, SMA is alreay small enough!
Hi Andreas what would you argue is the effective maximum range for the ESP-12E in a direct line-of-sight scenario? With effective meaning that you connecting to the ESP and/or loading the webpage does not take an excessive amount of time or numbers tries to connect respectively.
Maybe a few hundred meters. I never tried it
about line of sight, i have a D-Link wifi router inside the house, and my phone can still connect to wifi up to 50m from outside
i also my laptop can detect from rooftop and ESSID from 200m away, so it seems possible you can transfer data at a low bitrate at those long distances
Thank you for your feedback!
Looks like something is wrong in your test setup how much current your power supply supports ?
I get ~3,000 meters with external antenna and ~800 meters with a PCB antenna.
DJ
+DJLinux007 Very interesting result. I do not think, it is the power supply. What was your receiving device (I used an Ipad)?
+Andreas Spiess the receiver are a second ESP8266 with PCB antenna.
Your results are really bad compared to a cheap 2.4G nRF24L01P module also.
Something must be wrong any high power cables in the near air or power cables from a train ?
May be you should repeat your test on a totaly different place.
DJ
Thanks fir the info. I keep it on my list. Also the comparison with the NRF24L01
@@AndreasSpiess Hi, maybe the lots of amount and wide surface of the iron fence was the reason for the (possible) weak result. They say, that's one of the main reasons why wifi and bt does not work well in factories. I'm curious.
Thank you for being a follower in Iraq
:-)
I'm having this problem as well, 15 metres through two walls not working :(
Walls are never good for Wireless systems :-(
nice viedeo andreas,i clear all the valuable range site for pcb trace antenna and ESP without antenna.is these regarding to all pcb antenna have same range or different with version?
thanks....
If the antennas have a similar size at the same frequency you usually should get a similar range.
Thanks andreas..
Esp 07S should be always connected to device like laptop? Or It can transfer the Wi-Fi to longer distances same as repeater does.
Did the ESP-07 work 20 meters away behind your house?
Wi-Fi is not very good through obstacles.
@@AndreasSpiess but does the added antenna improve anything in this case?
Is there a maximum antenna size that can be used? What if a high gain directional cantenna or even an omnidirectional antenna were used? Does this limit the amount of gain from antenna?
Physically you can connect any 50-ohm antenna to these connectors. But you have to respect the law. In many countries, it does not allow high gain antennas
I wonder if you could increase the range by using two ESP-07s with external antennas rather than just connected to an iPad. Do you think it could be possible that iPad's antenna could be one limiting factor?
Also, are there external antennas with amplifiers?
Two directional antennas pointing at each other would be optimal probably.
1. The IPad seems to be part of the limited range.
2. Directional antennas for sure would help, if your devices stay at the same place.
3. I do not know if external amplifiers would work. The need a certain power to switch from receive to send and I do not know if the ESP has enough. For sure, they would be illegal :-)
4. I plan to do more testing , but probably next year when it is warmer here.
5. A viewer suggested, that I should have a resistor removed if I use an external antenna. I do not know, how much influence this has.
esp-07 external and "internal" antenna seem to interfere each other, I red that removing the little cap helps to make signal better when you use an external antenna with it, maybe you can look into it too. You have all the good measurement equipment.
You are right. Another viewer told me that, but at the time of the making of the video I did not know.
Andreas Spiess maybe you can make a little video about esp-07 since it's probably most popular esp with external antenna. To show the difference in gain with and without external and with and without the capacitor? :) You have the measuring equipment i believe, would be interesting. Just a thought.
I plan to do something with extendign reach of the ESP. But not soon.
I think you have to considder de 'used' powersupply. the range will improve with a supply that can deliver more current.
+half4team I used a power bank. I will do the test once again and also use different configurations (antennas, places).
A good power supply is very important. I've had lots of trouble with my ESP-01 that I have connected to my doorbell. Like connection losts and freezes. After I've added a 0,1F goldcap capacitor it works without errors. I think I've readed somewhere, that the ESP can use up to 800mA on a very short burst.
If you look at some of my newer videos you see, that I have gone the same way... Just bigger capacitors.
Hello, Please show how to connect an external antenna wire to a board with no antenna socket. How to solder to the onboard esp8266 antenna path, where the cable shield and its middle wire? Do I need to cut path and where to do it? Thx
I do not suggest doing that so I will not show it.
Thanks, now means the wemos d1 mini (PCB Antenna) is about 90 meters range?!
You have to try it. It also depends on the receiving station. It should be possible with line of sight between the two devices.
Testing my ESP-12E with an ESP-01, I could communicate around 300 meters "Line of Sight". Switching to my Android phone and pad the range dropped to 50-60 meters. The phone and pad were more than 8 years old.
Thank you for sharing your test results!
Hi Andreas. There is the Mesh function on the ESP8266. Do you know how far apart can each node be?
No, I never tried. But I think, the can be apart as far as Wi-Fi works. Which depends a lot about the environment (in-house or outside, walls, etc.)
so any form of the esp8266 with no attachments is 90 metres, correct?
You have to try in your environment.
Very good video!! So, just to clarify the information regarding the sex of the connector being FCC-legislated due to some "fear of...radio amateur operators" , it should be pointed out that the changes to connectors is to establish a new industry standard convention for the purposes of recognition/compliance. After all, any technician wanting to work around connection issues certainly can do so if desired. But, generally speaking, technicians and engineers who might not be current or up-to-date about the fact that "other regulations apply", and who suddenly encounter connector reversal would certainly be asking the obvious: "Why?". But for the non-compliant-minded user, unique connector scenarios provide an immediate response by manufacturers to produce "adapters" Thus, anyone can simply subvert the sex change by using an adapter or even add a 'pigtail' if they so desired. The truth is that changing the connector doesn't accomplish any sort of deterent so much as it is there as a 'reminder' to the technical person (or not-so-technical person perhaps) that a special case exists. It is a further truth that connector variations (as with the SMA reverse sex variation) identify advancing technologies / units which fall under regulatory restrictions or operation apart from similar components commonly used heretofore (education lags production, as they say).
We simply needed an obvious method of identification. Interestingly, these 'different' SMA connectors a but a small part of that convention. We have a multitude of various connectors with obtuse fittings including BNCs. Connector conventions were modified for this purpose long before network hardware was even a glint in the eyes of father WiFi. In closing, I think of this SMA sex reversal as a means to identify unique device operations to avoid bigger problems (like interference to other services). Historically, this need for tactile evidence of connection compatibility was never more vividly demonstrated than back in the day when pipes meant for carrying flamable natural gas were directly threadable to lines laid to carry water. The results were devastating. This would never have happened had the threads not matched. Be alert. Be safe. Be professional.
For me these RP connectors are not necessary and useless. I mark all of them with a red point and also all needed adaptors.
The technical audience had already decided on a connector -- "SMA". There were no technical need for two competing standards that do the same thing.
Your water/gas analogy also makes no sense, because there's no danger in using SMA OR RP-SMA for what its designed for -- as an RF connector, they both do exactly the same thing, interface to the same equipment, and carry the same stuff. One is just more annoying.
A better analogy would be two competing gas connectors, one of which is intended to stop you from frying eggs on a camp-stove, you can only attach water boiling equipment without an RP-Camp-Stove adapter.
As for standards compliance -- many technical people will be licences to use higher power in 2.4ghz, anyhow (Eg, amateur radio licences, commercial licence). And these licenced people have to go through the trouble RP_SMA causes for no reason.
Besides -- the fact RP-SMA was created to annoy consumers is clearly and nothing to do with 'assisting technical personnel' is clearly documented en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMA_connector#Reverse_polarity
Thank you. I agree. Further support that the premise stated in the video that " the sex of the connector being FCC-legislated (due to some "fear of...radio amateur operators)", is unsupported by the facts. I learned some interesting facts from your reply. Much appreciated.
thank you. I am about to start a project with the 8266 so this information helps me a lot. And capability is pronounced K-APE as in Batman's cape. :)respectfully
Thanks for the tip. I hope I will not forget it next time.
Hello Andreas, is 90 meters the maximum distance of esp8266 with line of sight from your ipad? or it can still go further from 90 meters?
This is what I got. I plan to do another test in the future, but I do not when
Thanks Andreas.
Hi is there not an attachment that u can put on the nodemcu esp8266 pins to extend the range(antenna board maby??)
Some boards have antenna connectors were you can connect your own antenna.
Greetings,
Sir, please suggest some module to test the 3.3GHz antenna
Google LiteVNA and watch my antenna videos.
thanks for sharing, have you tested how long the iPad can connect to a powerful router to discard the iPad from the equation? I have been playing with a router on a farm and I have lower coverage when testing apple devices (iphone) vs other devices (a dell laptop and a samsung phone). I will test an esp8266 as soon I get to the farm, good open spaces :)
+Cristian Szwarc Another viewer suggested also the Ipad as a source of short reach. So, I will do the tests again with other scenarios. e.g. the ESP connexted to a accesspoint and also some antenna choices. This scenario then covers the case of a ESP as a data collector connected through the WLAN to the internet.
Please publish also your results if available!
+Andreas Spiess hi, Today I was able to do a test outside the city, a nodemcu set as an access point with the demo page from the arduino examples. I was able to be connected up to 575 meters with my laptop. Sadly I was not able to test it longer because some hills. The iphone was not able to connect with the esp8266 after 80 meters or so
+Cristian Szwarc Thanks for the info. So, the difference between a phone and a laptop is bigger than I thought. I will try to use this info in the next test.
+Andreas Spiess at 575 meters the laptop was able to have a good connection but in an specific angle, the esp8266 was standing instead of lying, with the onboard antenna facing to where I was testing (no idea how much that affects the distance), I will try to test a longer distance and instead of the laptop I should test two esp8266
+Cristian Szwarc Please keep me posted. Antenna direction as well as place is very important at this short wavelength. A few centimeters can already make a difference. This is why it is not so easy to test.
Great video, I have seen 2.4Ghz are incredibly sensitive to walls when it comes to range and reaching your 8266 chip. Mine came with a 8bd small antenna, and although it gave me about a %10 increase in strength and range, its still small. I have heard you can make a large antenna out of a can, "Cantenna" ever heard of this? Would be a good video and possibly a massive range.
I heard of the cantennas. You find good videos on how to build them. Not on this channel.
@@AndreasSpiess I habe a question for you how did you do the esp-07 a access point you need to programed it or it's already progamed for use it like a access point? (I want to use it like a wifi repeater why I habe a long range antenna and I want to use it like a repeater)
@@eliasjoserodriguez5160 The ESPs usually are not programmed
@@AndreasSpiess and how I can program the esp-07?
@@eliasjoserodriguez5160 You find a lot of videos about that matter.
I have an antenna but I have the smallest wifi module. Can I hook it up somehow? The antenna's cable has a standard end with an inner and an outer part. Should I connect the inner part to the antenna and the outer to ground?
These antennas have to be connected to a small connector. If your board does not have such a connector it is not advisable to connect an antenna. The performance might be worse than in the original state. Both, the antenna cable and the connector are adjusted to 50 ohms.
@@AndreasSpiessOkay, thank you for letting me know!
...you should try connecting powerline networking from your router to your basement or anywhere ....also try testing it from 10km away to your home router
I do not see a relationship between powerline and the range of WiFi
@@AndreasSpiess ...ok i agree that was stupid...but think ..let say if i could broadcast the same lossless AP of my router on the other end via exsisting powerline transmission 10km away with similar hz (repeater) , where it connects to the esp8266/32 does it not add to the range of my WIFI
I have a number of Amica NodeMCU boards that I want to use in a project, and I have programmed them with PainlessMesh, which works nicely. At the moment, I am unable to communicate with a module in my next-door neighbour's house through the joining wall. The board has the ESP8266 module on it, as well as a USB port and supporting chips, looks similar to the big, black module in your picture at the beginning of this video. Is it possible to improve the antenna on it? Problem is that the ESP module is soldered onto the board, so I can't get to the back of it.
If your module does not have a built-in antenna connector it is very hard to change it. So, the only possibility is to buy a module with an antenna connector like the ESP-07 or the Wemos mini pro, and connect an external antenna to it.
Thanks for your answer, Andreas. I saw www.instructables.com/id/Enhanced-NRF24L01/
and had hoped I might do something similar. However, I take your advice.
Do you know of a polar diagram of the propagation from this type of printed antenna? I have two boards in my mesh, and I been experimenting by taking one board to a place where it clearly has difficulty seeing the mesh, but does eventually find it. Sometimes, it drops out of sync without touching or moving it, so it must be really on the edge. Then, I experimented by pointing the boards in various directions to see where reception is best, but I really haven't come to any conclusion. A polar diagram might help.
1. You can try the instructables. Maybe it helps. But maybe it does not help and you an destroy something. Both antennas are somehow similar.
2. The propagation differences of these antennas are very small. That is maybe the reason you did not find any. Many other influences like reflections, place etc. might have a much bigger effect. Be aware, that the wavelength on 2.4GHz is about 10 cm. So, a distance of 2.5 mm is a quarter wavelength which is the difference between a maximum and a minimum. If you change the distance between the two boards by less than 2.4 cm, you can already experience big differences.
Yes, your points are very valid. I want one module in my neighbour's house and one in mine, but there is only one wall separating us, so I'll try putting both modules against the wall. I tried leaving one in my office and taking the other to my workshop (about 30 metres + 3 walls) and it worked ok there.
Great software. I looked at the source, and I can see that a lot of work has gone into it. Thanks so much for making it available.
Unrelated, but what is your preference? D1 mini or NodeMCU?
For projects I use the smaller boards. But usually ESP32...
@@AndreasSpiess So much power, for reading a temperature every 5 minutes...
hello, the antenna is not an ILA but an IFA. I have skills for antennas but not for that kind of circuits. I'm learning. Thank you 73.
:-)
Greetings,
Sir, for 2.4GHz you r using esp 8266... bt please suggest some module to test the 3.3GHz antenna (external antenna)
3.3GHz is not a legal band to use without a license where I live :-(
how far is the esp8266 wifi range if you use an external antenna? Thanks sir
It depends on the antenna, of course. For sure you can double the distance with directional antennas
And what is about LoRaWan? will it get blocked by Swiss walls too?
Yes.
Thanks for Your Project, I also tested my NodeMCU and built a car that runs from browser and Wifi. First it was running only short range like about 100m. But when I removed my NODEMCU from toy car and tested it ranged 310 m. :)
Your tutorials are very good and informative. I am a professional Civil Engineer :) learnt Python and learning Arduino now.
Thanks for your feedback. More than 300 m is very good :-)
It will be more interesting how far can 2 esps talk together , so the distance wont depend on device used to connect to the esp .
You are right. This the topic of a future video
Thanks you for doing amazing job!
Yeah, I know these videos. Great channel!
I have tested this case inside my house... two ESPs, one send UDP packets ,the other receives. I confirm that the range is 16m/20m with an RSSI on sender of -85/-90dB with a percentage close to zero of lost packets.
The same result if the two ESPs are on different floors.
I have not tried it outdoors yet.
Thanks for the info!
I am having trouble with the range of this module. My distance is approx 200m and I don't know how to connect an antenna. Please help me
This is not possible by a normal user. The Wemos mini pro has a antenna connector and 16MB flash, and the ESP-7 have 1MB flash and an antenna connector.
So you are saying that we cannot solder an external antenna on modules with internal antennas like esp 8266-12E?
+Masoud Tarar You can solder whatever you want on a copper trace ;-) But the impedances have to match. Otherwise the antenna will not work. And this has to be designed by an engineer and manufactured with tight tolerances.
A wifi connection is only as strong as it's weakest link ... this could well be the Ipad and thus you really should have used 2 identical esp8266's communicating with each other.
good point
Спасибо!
Пожалуйста. Не за что
can't we solder an antenna over the PCB antenna on nodemcu?
You can, but most probably, it will not work well. Antennas have to match in impedance, and this has to be designed by somebody with a lot of knowledge (and measuring equipment). I would not do it. This is, why I use the ESP-07 if I need an external antenna.
Agreed. I didn't know that. I looked up a few websites today and found that such a hack could actually make the antenna performance worse. Great videos by the way :-)
What about Impedance matching ? First in specs was 50 Ohm, but then they changed it to 39+j6. I wonder how this affects when choosing an antenna
I did not look at this matter since then. So I do not know. Watching my newer videos you see that antenna matching seems to be important...
Can esp 32 have greater signal range than esp 07S.
No
Esp 07S should always be connected to device like laptop? Or it can transfer the Wi-Fi to longer distances same as repeater.
Do you know where I could buy an esp8266 with an external antenna connector? I can find the ESP modules themselves, but no complete board with a TTL adapter and all,.
I did not search for one, so I do not know.
Are there any other ESP8266 modules that can be fitted with an external antenna and have the >1MB Flash? On the ESP-07 do you have to remove the ceramic antenna to use an external antenna?
+Andrew R Dale 1. The wemos mini pro has 16 MB and a plug
2. No, just a resistor has to be removed
Remember that smartphones, ipads and tablets has really bad antennas inside, so range is short. If you can extend antenna from your tablet, you may expect at least 1 km range.
I will try different antennas later this year
Thanks. Now I am subscribed to your channel and will follow your experiments.
Thanks!
Hi.thanks for ur great And helpful video.
But how about android phones?have u ever test these modules with an android smart phone?
No, I never did that.
and I see esp201 at the first of your video.have you tested it? Should it be like esp_e12, yes?