RANT: BABEL ~ please don't hurt me
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- Опубликовано: 23 янв 2023
- What is a hyped book you didn't like?
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You make great points! I think what was really missing for me for the linguistic part (as someone who also enjoys learning languages: Taiwanese Mandarin, Japanese, French, and German) was that all the etymology lessons were taken out of context and there was no acknowledgment of the all-important cultural scaffolding that you have to have to truly understand a language. When you learn a language you're not just learning grammar and vocab in a vacuum, you're also learning cultural things like how the way in which people write, speak, their cultural and societal beliefs, history, etc influence their thinking and thereby influence language. One of my favorite examples is that in Chinese (and this varies by where in the Chinese-speaking world you're from) you have incredibly specific terminology that you use to describe your relatives, like there's a specific term for dad's younger brother's wife. So, whereas in other languages you would just call that person your "aunt" in Chinese you know exactly how that person is related to you which one might connect to the influence of Confucianism and the centrality of family within Chinese culture. It made it really awkward to read because I didn't feel like I was learning the why behind all these factoids that were constantly being dropped in. In my opinion, Kuang is more of a Theme>Worldbuilding>Plot>Character writer because I always find it very difficult to relate to her characters and therefore it makes it difficult for me to be invested in anything else going on.
Now that you mention it, yeah. I did take a year of college studying translation (French, English, Portuguese) and I do remember having multiple cultural classes. But then again, this book is supposed to be set in a time where Chinese culture is rejected and seen as lesser than, but it would've been nice to read about the student attending courses where the culture is skewed and biased against China. That would've been interesting.
I agree with you ranking of Kuang's writing. I think this book is definitely poignant, but Kuang is no longer an author I am interested in reading from.
Thank you so much for your comment! I really loved your thoughts so thanks for sharing!
I was bored stupid, flat characters, massive plot craters and so much convenience killed it for me
Loved the concepts, loved the setting, didn’t mind writing, footnotes didn’t bother me
But it was just a bad story that insisted on beating the reader over the head with even the most obvious concepts.
The plot holes were just awful, they threw me out of the story constantly. Was my worst read of 2022 😢
Should have been a complete hit for me, but I had to force myself through it
There was also a lot of tell not show, literally one sentence of “we were best friends and had the best summer” and done !!!
Then right at end a character joins the secret group and instantly knows the secret hideout and is given the secret lantern. Characters who were members for YEARS, no idea, but how convenient another character found out in his first week, the info they needed !! Urrrggghhhh
You are in the right place! Vent away!
And I love your phrase, "beating the reader of the head with even the most obvious concepts." So true. I think R.F. Kuang thinks her readers are stupid sometimes...
I should've probably DNFed this book and I am definitely putting more of an effort into doing that with future books that I don't vibe with.
Oh and the worst (spoilers) in 4th year EVERY student travels on their own trip, but for convenience all 4 are made to go to China (no good reason for other 3) and hey ho a big event happens so all 4 come up with a weird and nonsensical solution. So convenience again ….
It was non stop convenience.
Sweet kind constantly tearful character suddenly secretly has a core of hatred and strength that suddenly pops out of nowhere !
The list goes on and on
So so disappointing
@@heatherauton655 I'm here for you honey, don't worry, let it all out. *back pats* Here have a drink. xD
I got so angry with this book for not living up its potential and the expectation. I agree that it’s more historical fiction. The silver working was superfluous to 90% of the plot. It was only necessary for the ending, and I’m sure everyone guessed most of the ending halfway through the book when we see what’s behind the secret door, that Robin conveniently forgets and then remembers. Would’ve loved characters that thoughts and feelings that made sense as human people, and not just what the author needed them to feel at that point.
Completely agree! Sorry it made you angry though 😞
I agree with the first half of your comment and that this would’ve been a better book without the silver……but there’s no way I predicted that ending!! The book actually goes off the rails for me and was ruined when it took the path into murder and violence resistance - it actually seemed completely implausible and unrealistic, so not sure why people would expect this
@@52darceyyes! i totally agree. after that moment it just turned 'bad' for me. i was greatly disappointed by the ending.
Gurrrrrlllll!!! I hattttted this book! I kept reading and reading and then when the Epilogue happened, I never wanted to throw a book on the ground more than this book! There was a point when there was a Footnote where there was character development which was like why and that Silver bars in the Tower controls everything even though it doesn't touch the things?! How????? It was a giant Soapbox tale against Colonialism and racisim.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Guuuuurlllll! Vent away! lool!
I’m someone who enjoyed the book, understood what she was going for, but also found it underwhelming. Of course, my understanding of imperialism and colonialism is intellectual and my experience has always been as someone inhabiting and benefiting from empire, and watching in horror as it continues to unfold. So I understand how it could be more emotional and personal for some. It just feels a little contradictory and disappointing that someone who absolutely understands the subtleties of language could present a sociopolitical analysis that’s so flat and broad. It feels like she belabors a few really basic, retreaded points like “colonialism is bad, actually,” “academia serves to underpin imperial aims.” It’s like she thinks we’re going to disagree with her on those ideas that are fifty+ years old at this point. And then when she had the opportunity to consider what anti-imperial revolution could look like, she gives us… only magic bombs? So revolution is impossible in a world where imperial power is not contrivedly concentrated in a single building…? She even sketches out a more feasible-sounding combination of coalition building, sabotage, protest, and strikes, and dismisses it in favor of martyrdom. It’s not to say that violence doesn’t have its place in the revolution but by the end it felt like she just got tired of doing plot and thinking about how empire actually works and wanted to just sweep it away in one gesture. So yeah, it’s a decent book and the translation examples from her own research are fascinating. And I actually enjoyed the magic system and characters, which I’ve heard other people criticize. I just wish her analysis were deeper and the ending bore out the promise of the beginning.
For me, most of the book felt like reading a College lecture, and I got very bored.
lol yup 👍🏻💯
The characters were stereotypes and that isn't good story telling.
Thank you for being honest about this type of stuff.
This book was really well written (in theory lol) but I struggled with the way she let it fall apart so casually. In books like this there has to be some sort of hope but it was just taken away. Heartbroken about Ramy as well.
yes!! the plot just like disappeared after the 4th year china trip.
I read Yellowface and all the characters annoyed me. It was a quick read but I was frustrated with the characters and the open ending. I have left Babel at page 60 something and I'm very afraid that the characters, the part I love most about stories, will fall flat/ stereotypical for the sake of colonialism/ racism being shown more. When I finish it, I don't think I will pick another one of her books. I love hating villain characters but if they're one dimensional or caricature like, yeah, there's a problem. Maybe RK is not a writer for me.😅
And that is okay if she isn't. Plenty of other authors out there!
Agree that the characters weren't people, so much as tokens to be moved around to make the author's points. That said, I loved Babel for its worldbuilding and magic system.
I can totally see why you didn't enjoy it. In my case, the more I thought about it, the more I felt that I wanted more. And I think I wanted more character development and also plot. I don't normally mind if a book doesn't have a lot of plot, but maybe the thematic content in this book was so extensive, that it overshadowed the rest of the elements of the story.
Yeah, the more I think back on this book, the more I feel like the plot was minor to almost non-existant. And that's just not the kind of reader I am.
@@LolasLalaland Do u have any recs? I wanted more, it was a good book for me, but all the time I felt like I was waiting for something to happen and it never happened. I love the theme, I love the topics it addresses, the disscusion, but I wanted more, more character development, more plot.
@@moncherryderio I don't really have any recommendations for a book that is similar in theme and atmosphere, I guess. I don't read dark academia or historical fantasy very much...
From reviews I've heard I understand why some people love it and some people find no enjoyment. I never see 3 stars or feeling middle of the road about it 🤣 I still have faith it's gonna work well for me even though I'm not much of a history lover, I think the themes alone are going to hit hard.
I mean, I cannot deny it is a great book in it's premise, so I hope you love it!
I loved the book , but you make good points, don't feel like you have to hold back lol
I'm glad you loved it! Honestly, I don't feel like I really did "hold back" because I recognize that this book is a powerful message but I wanted a good story instead and that's not really the main goal the author had. But I'm going to be doing a book comparison soon where I am probably going to be shitting on Babel significantly more than I did in this video. 👀
I considered this book an agenda book the character's where used as tools to push agenda imo the author clearly wanted to push her view out certainly isn't on par with the classics she knocks no fleshing out of character's was lazy in my opinion
I agree, and I think what makes it more unfortunate is that the author's agenda is a great topic and would have been absolutely amazing if she had simply blended story and message better.
Didn't know you spoke Portuguese, that's awesome! I totally had a similar experience with Babel. It should have worked for me... except it didn't.
My Portuguese is not as good as it used to be. My father is Portuguese and he would only answer us if we spoke to him in Portuguese and we would go visit our grand parents in Portugal but now I don't have as much particle with it.
I really thought I would have an unpopular opinion about Babel but it seems there are quite a few people who agree with me on this book.
@@LolasLalaland and nee the hype died down, the “real” reviews came in 😅
Must never write story second to some author message. Thats a lesson all of us writers must learn. Story first, satisfy the audience, subtly preach. Less is more.
I'm on page 80. So far everything is wonderful. I love it. I see myself in it.
I love this book but I do understand why other people may not like it and I agree it’s been shelved in the wrong genre.
I really enjoyed The Poppy War and was excited for this. I'm a history geek, I'm a language geek (I speak English and Korean, and I *attempted* to study Mandarin in college, and now I'm currently studying Japanese), I'm a fantasy geek. It all felt like it would be a slam dunk, but, like you, while I can recognize that it's a well-crafted book, it didn't really do it for me either, but my main gripes were twofold: the characters and the preachiness. My wife is reading it for book club and we got to talking about the crossroads Robin is at for most of the book and I was just like, "I just...don't like ANY of these characters enough to want him to side with any of them." I was actually reminded of the book Things Fall Apart, which had similar themes and had me feeling the same at the end, with me not liking any of the characters and feeling nothing when it was all over.
And those themes...hooboy. Look, I get it. History is filled with racism, imperialism, colonization, and all sorts of other awful things that were committed to satiate one individual or nation's greed and amibition. You're not going to read a historical fiction novel and NOT experience that. But the fact that Babel kept drawing upon "colonization bad, white privilege" just got so tiresome to listen to. Things I'd probably be able to put up with better if I liked the characters, which I didn't. None of them struck me as people I would want to spend time with. About the only one I felt any real sympathy for was Letty, and that's because every time she breathed someone would just get pissed off at her for not being adequately sensitive to their plight because she's a rich white girl, and even then, actions she took near the end didn't really do much to prove her supposed friends wrong.
I'd compare it to the stories of the Shin Megami Tensei games, but at least those gave me a fun JRPG to play with even when I didn't care about the characters.
Yup, completely agree with everything you said. Though, I am glad you enjoyed the Poppy War, I sadly felt the same way about the characters in the Poppy War so I have just come to accept that R.F. Kuang is not the author for me.
You’re not supposed to like any of the characters in Things Fall Apart, I would be concerned if you did- they’re supposed to be real life flawed characters. It’s the story about how such a history informs people in the present. It is a trilogy so you understand the world of No Longer at Ease. I don’t think that was the same idea in Babel
@@officialmkamzeemwatela I mean most good characters are like that...real life-like and flawed, that doesn't mean the author gets a pass for not getting us to empathize with them. Plenty of morally awful characters still get plenty of empathy and interest from the audience because they're well written (Bojack Horseman, Walter White, Rick Sanchez, Homelander, etc.) a character being deeply flawed or a bad person is no excuse for not getting the audience to care.
It's not tiresome when "white privileged and colonisation bad" is still not understood by a lot of people today, you can see it and feel it in Congo, in Sudan, in Palestine. And about Letty, she is the epitome of white feminism. The only people I've seen not enjoy this book much are white people so maybe R.F Kuang was onto something...
O que me fez desgostar ainda mais do livro para além dos personagens foram os temas do racismo e colonialismo, para mim é um tema que é delicado, mas ao mesmo tempo tem tantas nuances porque o ser humano antes de ser preto branco chinês é um humano, ou seja, temas que parecem simples podem ser sempre levados além. Mas ente livro todos os personagens brancos são maus e acham os estrangeiros ingratos. E todos os estrangeiros não gostam do sítio porque o brancos são maus, a menos que sejam pobres (tem algumas excepções no livro mas na maioria é assim).
O livro fica tão repetitivo porque a autora só sabe falar de como o colonialismo e mau e roubou E É ISTO TODO O LIVRO! Tudo o hype que havia sobre o racismo e colonialismo resume-se a isso no livro e eu acho que se pode falar de tantas coisas usando a mente dos seres humanos e como eles ficam cegos quando têm poder.
Talvez haja gente que ache que a autora mostou isso no livro, mas eu não, eu acho que foi tudo muito plano especialmente os plot twists 🙄🙄🙄
Obrigado pelo seu comentario! Meu portugues nao e muito bom entao tenho que terminar de responder em ingles.
(Sorry if that was horribly written... I can speak, read and understand Portuguese pretty well but it's hard for me to write it so I hope you can read this comment! Also, no accents on english keyboards makes it hard...)
I completely agree with everything you said! Yes! Humans are so complex and keeping the theme of the book mainly on colonialism and everything bad about it is very one-dimensional. I think the book could have been a lot better if it had taken multiple approaches to its topic rather than having the good guys versus the bad guys.
Thank you for your comment, I don't know Portuguese but I get it machine translated, and I get your point. It is very common for a Chinese to be in contact with the West "outside world" for the first time and become very hateful towards white people. But over time we learn that it is a complex thing and there are racist as well as non-racist white people. I think it is of crucial importance to recognize this spectrum of racism in order to deal with the modern world (which is rapidly globalizing) and to build a better future for us all.
I am so happy I am not alone in my huge disappointment. I am done with RF Kuang as well!
I checked it out of my library and tried the first chapter, to me it read like a dry history book and that was fine. thought it was well written, but not enough to convince me to continue. And from the sounds of it, I would have hated it because plot and worldbuilding are important to me.
Omg im relieved to see someone who didnt love this book. I felt like i was wrong for feeling beaten over the head by the 'racism is bad' moralistic writing but i was so boreeeeddd. Thank you for this.
Babel turned me off from Kuang, too, just like you say. I didn't like anyone in the story, but I was talking myself into enjoying the setting and premise well enough. I could see the commentary about colonialism; even though I didn't see anything particularly distinctive about the portrayal, still there's good in showing it to readers who might not have realized colonialism's pervasiveness. There was a lot of potential for things to happen, like maybe some double-crosses... and then suddenly we'd fast-forwarded to "everyone" being dead. I remembered a similar shock from the Poppy War stories, and it seems like this is just what happens to her characters when she decides she's finished with exploring her own story's world. If she's not interested in playing out the sequence of her own plots, characters, and worlds, then why should I be interested either?
I initially started reading this book because I'm also a language nerd and magic with languages sounded appealing. but the more i read, the more disappointed i became with the book. its undoubtedly well-written in terms of prose, but the plot and pacing was all over the place! especially towards the end! like WTF?! what kind of ending was that! i should've DNFed it after the china trip when it still had any semblance of good.
I'm sorry you also did not enjoy this book 😞 hopefully better ones are on the horizon!
I also hated this book and i have so many issues with it and am confused why people constantly praise it? I can understand why some people may have enjoyed the reading experience or what not but its really not groundbreaking nor profound ideas it was preachy annoying and the most boring flat characters of all time. My biggest gripe though is people who like it saying that the prose is amazing and it is so well written. This book was so poorly written to me like it was not well written at all sounded like a ya novel idk wtf people r on about. And i really expected to like it too considering dark achedima is my favourite genre and the secret history is my favourite book (and that one is what actual good prose sounds like 😭)
totally agree
Kuang has the moral subtlety of a sledgehammer. She is the one of the most, if not the most, overated of contemporary SFF writers. I know this will sound horribly elitist, but I'm confident that people who are impressed by Babel (or The Poppy War) simply aren't well read and haven't been exposed to truly great literature. No one I know who is well read likes Kuang.
I should clarify that I have no issue if someone enjoyed a particular book. What's entertaining is subjective. I'm referring only to people who claim Babel is "a masterpiece," or The Poppy War is "one of the greatest fantasy series of all time". Such claims are pure nonsense.
Dude, I was literally scrolling through RUclips and saw your comment appeared and just started laughing so hard at your very first sentence! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I'm not sure I would say people aren't well read if they like R.F. Kuang, I think people just have different things they like and that's all. But I will still take your compliment. I never thought of myself as well read but now I'm gonna fucking brag about it loooool Thank you for making me laugh, you're amazing!
@@Quinn2112 oh yes, I agree with that!
Daniel B Greene
@@caseyurich9190 I'm not sure if this comment was directed at me or what it means.
The Poppy War trilogy was a huge disappointment, so I'm not really surprised that Babel is the same. Kuang just seems so...overrated to be honest, and she seems to find it incredibly hard to bring characters to life. She sacrifices everything for the sake of plot, and it's so tiring. Like, just write a historical book then!
I get this so much, her characters could've been so much more interesting than they actually are. You can feel more depth in like tumblr posts about her characters than the actual books themselves
I’m not reading anymore RF Kuang after this. It seems like she wanted to shove her views of “white people, colonialism bad” down our throats, as opposed to making us come to those conclusions ourselves based in the events of the story. Letty was such a forced character too. I was really disappointed
I like your review... I have not read Babel but I will find time to at least skim through it just to see if you're lying 🤣 ... It is a common problem for Chinese people to find a place in the "world stage" and we come from an isolated culture that lacked the sophistication of the West and many of us are struggling and frustrated, not just in the literary scene but in other pursuits such as science and technology. That is one factor, and the other is that racism also really exists. That's what makes it so hard to dissect.
I hope my review of the book did not make it seem like I'm denying the existence of racism or the real world and present struggles of Chinese (and all other non-American cultures and natives for that matter) in the Western world. Honestly, it's been so long now since I put up this review, I barely remember anything about the book because what ultimately happened was that I was bored. R.F. Kuang is a great writer with a mission to bring awareness to these real world issues to her readers, but I don't like her stories.
@LolasLalaland I just read the synopsis from Wikipedia -- sorry, I don't have the time to read the book, I'm literally living the book's story and time is running short -- so the book tells a tragic story, the protagonists were doomed, pretty much like the family in A Hundred Years of Solitude was doomed. It is quite truthful in a sense, as we know that China suffered great losses and humiliation during the British colonial period... the book is not trying to rewrite an alternative history. Or is it? It is trying to teach a lesson, though I'm not sure if her conclusion is correct...
@@CyberneticOrganism01 it is technically a historical fantasy. There's magic metal and language stuff so I don't think the author was particularly inclined to staying accurate to history. Also, what do you mean you are living the book's story?
@LolasLalaland well... I'm working on strong AI, which may arrive very soon and will end the human race as we know it... it may also end racism but I might have gotten that wrong ☹️ .... The Chinese are not always fighting against imperialism, we spend a lot of time fighting among ourselves... the winners usually are the ones who collude with Empire. The war against Empire cannot be won without great sacrifice, just as "Babel" predicted. And even that may be false 😓
your sophistications are just as fine and similar as the rest of us. Any forms of literature and train of thought that you guys have is comprehensible and easily dissect just as much. I guess that comes with the connection, relatability, and knowledge of such experiences.
As for the sphere of influence in any forms such as art, science, and technology ur culture did have a place in the world stage more than u thought tbh.
Im convinced book reviews are AI. My biggest regret is paying for this book
@@santamonica4995 oof, I am sorry to hear that 😅
don't feel bad, i absolutely disliked it... i rated it 1 star... but tho whoever loves it, good for you :)
Literally nothing happens for 2/3 of the book and it bore me to death. I didn’t care about the plot or characters. There was barely any magic and yes I get this is a book about colonialism and racism but I wish the story was come compelling. I really disliked this book.
Hated the book. Self-congratulatory want.- replace t with k
owch. i adored babel and i have never adored a book more, it will always be in my heart.
I am very happy you liked it! R.F. Kuang is a great author, she's just not for me sadly.
@LolasLalaland i believe entirely in each to their own, i appreciate you reading it regardless because i can see you did read it from how you've reviewed it.
R.F Kuangs writing in Babel appeals to a very specific audience i think, i was mouth-fed Dickens growing up so the style felt wholly familiarly to me and, frankly, quite refreshing, though i was left in a state of utter melancholy afterwards and walked around the town like a living zombie, im still grieving the characters.
is there a book you read that you felt wasn't very well known that you loved?
Ah, the classic book hangover 🤣 I know the feeling. I would love to recommend some book though I'm worried we may have different tastes in literature. Nonetheless here are a few; anything by Jen Williams (so far I've read her Winnowing Flame trilogy, A Dark and Secret Place, and her new one Talonsister), The Underland Chronicles by Suzanne Collins are grossly underread and more people should read them in my opinion, and December Park and Come With Me by Ronald Malfi. Those are my top favorite reads currently. 😁
@LolasLalaland i agree we have deeply different tastes in literature; in my opinion all the more reason to share, thank you for responding, this is a delightfully decadent list and i will look into them and perhaps even attempt a few.
if not then they will make good christmas or birthday presents,
and yes, the only hangover i have ever had, is that of the bookish kind :)
I am currently reading this book, and I am having a hard time continuing. The characters are so flat and poorly written, just like in the poppy war trilogy. It sometimes reads like an academic text, then a lecture, and then it becomes a novel, and the footnotes are so annoying. And why are the characters speaking like they're from 21st-century instead of the 19th century? Also, is it YA? It feels so juvenile at times.