Thanks for checking out my video! Really happy you enjoyed it, I've been watching your stuff since probably around 2017 so seeing this is kind of surreal to me. I wanted to correct a small thing, the main issue with the DC system is that it doesn't provide an estimation of player skill in which the number of games played doesn't matter past a certain point. All proper Elo ladders do not necessarily reward you for playing as much as you can, but the DC system definitely does through the caps it has on points gained and lost.
Yup. It's the big reason, as you pointed out, why players started playing fast decks as opposed to the best winning decks. If I can play 10 games an hour and win 8 of them (assuming 1000 per win and ~1200 per loss) then I'm up 5600 points. But if I can play 15 games and win 11, I'm up 6200 points, even though I'm going from an 80% win rate to 73% win rate. And this was assuming maximum loss points, which will only rarely be the case. As long as you can stay positive, quantity beats quality.
The point system minimum of 1,000 points per win is what truly breaks the DC and makes it a point ladder instead of an Elo system. With this implementation, even if the event was a week long, like in Pokemon, all it would do is extend the amount of time world level players like Joshua Schmidt hurt themselves to win.
Using the same players topping as evidence for the skillfullness of the DC is heavily biased data, you have to factor in that the competitive base actually willing to attempt the climb is so minuscule, it’s actually very likely you’ll see the same names topping every time. 99.9% of the possible competition isn’t going to bother or physically can’t spend 60+ hours grinding the tournament.
Are you guys really under the impression that like only ten people in the world are the ones competing in the DC? There is almost certainly a large enough sample size of players trying that the same people making it every time is statistically significant.
@@SDREHXC Sure, but so is the fact that it requires a 60+ hour time commitment. I'm sure that, among the people willing to take that grind, skill is a significant factor, but at least as significant is the fact that a lot of potentially equally skilled players cannot possibly commit the amount of time necessary to compete.
I don't know what you're talking about, the biggest unofficial MD tournaments have cash prizes. There just happen to be circumstances surrounding those tourneys that arguably make them less appealing, like being run by a muppet. ARG was similar even back in ancient times. Unofficial cash prize tournaments that are somewhat big, but also alienate a lot of the pleayerbase. (more cheating for the cash)
if they are keeping the elo and invitation system as is, objectively the best way to qualify would be for multiple people to take sleeping shifts playing on the same account which is hilarious to think about.
@@bocodamondo If they're in the same house using the same computer, it's nigh impossible to track tbh. But this isn't necessarily that good other than fitting in more rest and basically having no breaks. For one thing, they can't maximize their chances by having 3 accounts work at topping the ladder, for another, they might have varying skill levels and could just lose a bunch of points if even one of them isn't up to the standard
Degenerate Cup test your endurance as solo player, to get access to the tournament where you play strategically with your team. This system is truly peak comedy. . You know, Konami will NEVER stop using this Degenerate Cup. Because it is cheap and effortless, but very profitable. This is a live service game. The high number of "play rate" can be very useful to show to the shareholders, investors, or sponsor; to get more money.
Something that isnt mentioned but should be from the showdown section is how they do suspect tests. For those unfamiliar a suspect test is where if a pokemon is seen as to strong instead of banning it right away they let players vote for it. To qualify you have to reach a certain elo under a fresh account under a certain amount of games. They could do something similar here. Reach a certain score under a certain amount of games and if you go over it you can retry. Then after x amount of time you stop letting people qualify and from those players do something else to qualify. Its not perfect but imo its way better then forcing players to duel non stop to qualify.
To summarize the video, the problem with MD's elo system is that you gain to many points for a win. A serious competitor loses about 1070 points per lost, and the amount gained for every victory is at least 1000, due to a hard coded minimum points gained. While you still lose more than you gain on average, the problem is that a serious competitor is not gonna have a 50/50 winrate - he will often be matched against weaker opponents, which he should mostly beat, but instead of getting like 700-800 points for beating the weaker opponent's he still gets the 1000 minimum points. That means that with a serious competitor's winrate, the more he plays the more points he get, instead of reaching an equilibrium of gaining and losing points, which is the heart of elo system. Since the more you play the more points you gain, there is an incentive to play nonstop
It is a plot point (in several seasons) that someone is forced to duel so long that they're mentally and physically drained. It is referenced as torture.
One day someone will drop dead because of this and konami still won't care and people will still continue to slave in this like their life depends on it.
I just play the DC to get the gems, but that also doesn't mean I don't understand that it's an insane way to hold a tournament. Asking top players to do actual damage to their body in order to win a tournament is just a bad practice.
@@nachohangover5104 keep in mind in the other side of the game, chinese players still pushing hard despite they are not eligible to join wcs due to the fact that their country is banned. main problem : we are so used to grind in japanese and chinese games that make this type of grind is actually normal.
The point system is definitely the biggest issue, especially because there isn't a "finish line" like they could so easily add. What I consider an easy fix, limited number of games to qualify for the "next level." Everyone that wins all games would qualify immediately while those who lost a game or two would still likely be in the "top contenders" (so I guess top 10,000) to qualify for "level 2 of the 2nd stage," which would be a tournament style elimination that starts at a specific time. 10,000 people face off against each other, all these games could be used as a spectacle being shown off on the site like "Duel Live" except you search and see account names to watch their games. And they could add something this game has been needing to the tournament they hype up every other month; "2 out of 3 games to win."
9:15 dude literally smogon is hosting the major world championchip every year - you quite literally qualify for the big tournament just like in yu gi oh
My problem with the 72 hour non-stop grind is that the average person will not get a chance at getting first place or not getting a high ranking due to the amount of time required while also doing other important things in their life. This means that only people who are dedicated to Yugioh and/or play this game for a living (which is mostly a mistake) can actually qualify. I do agree that the invitation is dumb. Why are you allowed to invite someone on to your team if they didn't even participate or get a high rank in the first place? I like the 3v3 format and the different decks teams are forced to bring and strategize around, just ban the damn bug and it will be so much better.
Definitely my biggest gripe with DC is the invite system. It just feels wrong that I could grind my ass off for a WCQ inivte, buy a homless man a tablet, make him download masterduel, and all of a sudden that homeless man is competing in worlds because i decided i want him on my team. if they want to keep the team format (which i hope they keep) than i really think teams should have to register as teams before DC and the team's collective preformance determins their placement within the event.
I think regardless of all the math that the DC second stage could be organized better considering how much time is necessary to qualify. Yeah, the system works, but there’s always room for improvement. I don’t know what that solution would be though
The argument that "people will always grind as hard as possible to get an edge" or "more people in the elo system means more grind" just isnt true when you dont have an elo system that encourages that. You can easily set up and tune an elo system to reduce grind. For example most of the games that discourage "secondary/smurf accounts" like dota or league will give "fast lanes" to players who keep outperforming everyone. So you can get massive elo rating gains with few games just by showing your skill. So a pro dota player can get an unranked fresh account into top tier elo in a week easily while a scrub might grind away for his entire life without ever seeing top tier. This also should be your goal to reduce "wasted games" where a top tier player stomps a bottom tier player because they still havent seperated their elo enough. You want sharp elo changes that gradually get slower the closer you get to the "true elo" of the player. MD meanwhile slows you down the further up you go in the latter and has a wierd "non cap". Most elo system have a soft highest rank that you can reach. MD just forces you to turn into a fucking point hoarding goblin because it allows it. Other elo systems would just give you +1 point per match you win so you basically get no benefit if you keep winning but there also is no punishment for not playing because you dont loose points. Thats the main issue the fact that you can keep playing to keep gaining elo. Why tf are you able to gain more elo while already rank 1 with a massive gap between you and anyone else. Elo systems can be frustrating but the one they use in MD is just infuriating because its ridiciously punishing. More games = Higher rating makes no sense and is a flawed elo system imo. Such a system doesnt test skill past your barebones winrate. You just need an above average winrate and then your rating is decided by game count not by actual skill.
how about hosting the DC cup over a longer period of time for a 3rd stage and reworking the second stage to be a bracket tournament, where once you win/place highly in enough bracket tournaments, you are guaranteed the option to go to third stage on the basis of competing for a world's qualifier spot (a prompt will come up before they enter the third stage pool), those who beat the second stage but don't want to qualify can cash in their winnings for rewards and , taking them out of the competing pool of people. The people that don't want to go to worlds but still want to compete in duelist cup second stage can re-enter bracket tournaments from the start again to grind for rewards in a redeamable shop. In the third stage, over two to three weeks, you are limited to 30-40 ish games a day and it's regular elo rated games in the proper worlds format, which would run parallel to other events, you playtest and deckbuild as best as possible in that time you have, therefore it could still be skilltesting as you would get a lot of games done in total (~420 games), but wouldn't require you to play 63 hours of yugioh in a three day window to have a shot at going to worlds.
you're in luck, I have the timestamp for it lol. That game takes place 12 hours and 2 minutes (12:02:00) into the video "Joshua Schmidt grinds Master Duel for 24h to get a World Championship Invite" on the Joshua Schmidt VODs channel
The DC should have a hard limit on the number of duels a player can do in the 2nd stage that will actually count towards their final rating. I'd suggest a minimum of 50 duels to qualify and a maximum of 150, and your winrate in those duels is what matters, not the amount of total wins. You can keep dueling after your 150 if you want to try and knock other players down by beating them, but your own rating won't move after that point.
I'm pretty sure I always get like top 10k every duelist cup, getting to the 10k point mark is usually free as you will always gain more then you lose there at that stage you're just looking to win 4-5 games more then loses to reach the top 10k bracket with about 14-15k points sometimes you need a bit higher depends on participations. I pretty much exclusively play Resonators so you don't even need to use something that is remotely close to a meta deck to get there either.
Yeah as long as the Elo system they're implementing doesn't reward so many games played but just consistently beating higher ranked players would be good. It really could be that the hours don't matter as much as a very fair point system. They have the playerbase to implement something like this. I'm fairly convinced by the math presented here
When I play any DC event, two of the biggest factors for me playing is obtaining a good amount of gems and testing out some of my more competitive builds for my favorite decks to see how far along I've come along. The first two days however are extremely frustrating, especially when it's just, do you have the counter for Maxx C? If not I lose. Oh choosing to go second against the very best strategies and not having any out to their board? I lose. I play more ranked during DC events because at least the sweats are gone for a bit.
The Duelist Cup wouldn’t even be such a drag if the format was actually fun. I’ve played a few games of the current one and it’s been a coin toss competition. And I don’t have it in me to play competitively seriously anymore.
It should just be seperated in parts like specific day or specific ohour of the day would help people and be more active at that time so we have more player
I think a better format would be to limit 100 duels over the three days. You can do around 30-40 duels a day which would take around 10-12 hours,leaving them 12 hours to rest, sleep, eat, etc... From there just place them.
Making a minimum games played threshold and going off of win percentage seems to just be so mind numbingly easy of a fix. EDIT: I highly doubt the same people closely related to YGO tournaments and YGO content creation having 60+ hours to grind an online YGO tournament and topping said tournament is meaningful. Sure the skill amongst them is probably important but most working people simply don't have that kind of time.
The same DC that Josh grinded for 3 days is the thing that made me quit Master Duel. I like the game, and I was having fun when I came back to Master Duel, but forcing me to play Tear after Tear after Spright after Tear was a fantastic way to showcase the absolute _worst_ that the game has to offer. I just want to open my fucking secret packs, and the most efficient way to do that by far is willingly entering a hellqueue. I just lost my appetite for the game after that.
All they have to do is limit it to 100 duels. That's it. That would be manageable for most of the competitive playerbase while significantly cutting the grind. Doesn't reduce the skill requirement to win as well because now you're actually competing with MORE people even taking into consideration that the sample size for duels getting cut down. It's just always been a terrible system and I'm surprised it hasn't been clamored about more, especially in the MD subreddit. Other live service games would fix such an egregious issue asap but it seems konami dgaf, because nobody is complaining, really. This also stops people running the "most efficient" decks and can actually play decks that take longer to combo off to DC. Also I keep seeing people saying "not everything has to be for everyone". No it doesn't have to be, but the duelist cup filters 99.95% of players, because quite literally it is physically impossible for most. That's a terrible way to narrow down a population of competitive players. Not every competitive player is an insomniac jobless nerd. We got lives, limit it to 100 duels, allow players to do normal things like sleeping and taking a dump. Even olympians get rest before their competition. For some reason people don't give a damn here, seems to me people dropping these comments are those ranked casuals that dont even participate in DC at all. Probably lose to hard meta in stage 1 a few times and quit, then drop these: "not everything is for everyone" comment. Absolute idiocy.
Let's be honest here. Most players just play to get the gems. Not only that, but it gets boring playing against the same meta decks for 72+ hours just so that you can qualify to play against them more at a tournament. People have other things to do in life. A solution would be to have a more stretched out DC system where each region can play during certain times of the day that won't interfere with other things for example in the USA you have competitors play from 6pm - Midnight. That way, you everyone from the USA can do other things and plan accordingly.
I dont understand why the Duelist Cup needs to be 2 stages, just make it a single stage, 3-4 weeks long and once people get to duelist level 20, they automatically start getting points. Removes the short time frame of Stage2 and lets people rest. If Konami could also fix the Elo system and properly reduce point gain at high levels, spamming games wouldnt be the best way to play DC either
Or maybe just make new stage,let 2nd stage participant only for those whose doesnt qualify and both qualifier fight each other in the 3rd stage for last qualifier (?)
This doesn't necessarily fix anything. One way around this is to just build your team of 3 and all play on that one account for that 3-4 week time frame. Sure it let's people rest but then you just end up with a situation where the person or persons that can dedicate the most time to it will win. And the people who can't play nonstop for a month won't move on
Stage 1 is clearly for the gems. It's done that way to basically keep casual players out of the higher levels. That's why you'll level up to 16 despite losing a lot.
DC should be about being good at the game not being the one who play the most amount of games, i'm very sure there are many players who had 70% or even 80% winrate but they are nowhere near elligible to qualify just because there are 55% winrate players who play all day and sharing their account to grind 24/7, i think the best thing to do is have a limit of 10 to 20 games a day for each account so that the best players will be the ones with actually the best skills
I don´t get why they don´t do digital qualifiers for each region on a weekend where the top 8-16 duelists of each region based off ladder/duelist cup points can play for the main event
I find conversations like these really pointless because Konami does not listen to anyone and will just keep doing what they're doing. Duel Links started this structure with the KC Cup years ago and now Master Duel has it too. As long as it keeps doing whatever they want it to do they will keep doing it. HOWEVER to anyone who enjoys the conversation more power to you. I just wanted to vent a little :)
Don't think Pokemon Showdown is a reasonable comparison. It's not Official, and you've got extremely doctored formats that the plp that run smogen just ban what ever they don't like. Even in Yu-Gi-Oh you'll see random cheese tactics, while Smogen say's no to high RNG starts like OHKO moves.
Also want to point out, the Current running game (Scarlet/Violet) do have official tournaments for there main events you can try to qualify for, that you'll see things you may never see on Showdown just because of the doctored formats they have.
They were comparing how the top players qualify for a tournament via the online ladder not Pokemon vs. Yugioh as games. And as the video points out, most of the qualifier reqs are the same if not similar. The main difference is Smogon uses an actual ELO system and thus doesn't require players tortuting themselves to qualify.
No matter what, either way, players wouldn't be happy. Players aren't happy about it now because they have to give up a few days and do nothing but spam games on repeat. But if they changed it you'd be upsetting the players that like the grind and have no problem with ignoring the outside world for a weekend. Capping the number of games played also introduces other variance. Just as an example if I'm capped at 200 games for the weekend then the time of day I choose to do my games becomes a greater factor than it is now. I could just do my games during the times in which the higher skilled opponents may be sleeping. Or I could wait out my games until theyve completed theirs. You'd still have competition but you could start to do things to give you a bigger advantage based on the limited number of games you're allowed to play.
They could still reduce the grind by keeping everything else the same and just changing the caps on gaining and losing points to a more traditional ELO system.
Smogon is unofficial and they and their community take themselves way too seriously. They are NOT a good measure of competition in pokemon games just as Wikipedia is NOT a recommended primary source of information. Smogon is a fan base and not officially a creation of Game Freak or Pokemon company. I personally would take anything anyone in that community says with a grain of salt. You want honest pokemon competitive information? Look at Verlisify. Dude is one of the only voices of sanity in the entire competitive pokemon community.
You can disagree with Smogon on its opinions on competitive Pokemon and still compare its tournament structures to Masterduel since as the video points out there's a lot of similarities. And objevtively speaking, the grinding on the ladder to qualify for Smogon's OLT is a fraction of the grinding you need to do to qualify for Worlds with Masterduel. Whether or not you think Masterduel's qualifiers structure is better or worse is subjective, but objectively OLT is less taxing on its top players.
smorgen stuff isnt just for fun lol, you get badged if you vote in enough banlist suspescts which you need to ladder for. Being badged on smorgen is like the first power trip you get on that site lol. That and being able to directly have an impact on the banlist. (although we voted to unban moody and evasion in gen v ubers so whether users having an impact like that is a good thing or not is debatable because those unbans went through lmao) that being said i dont remmeber ladder tournaments being a thing when i was active there, so presumably stuff has changed
Thanks for checking out my video! Really happy you enjoyed it, I've been watching your stuff since probably around 2017 so seeing this is kind of surreal to me.
I wanted to correct a small thing, the main issue with the DC system is that it doesn't provide an estimation of player skill in which the number of games played doesn't matter past a certain point. All proper Elo ladders do not necessarily reward you for playing as much as you can, but the DC system definitely does through the caps it has on points gained and lost.
Farfa pin this
Fafa pin this
@@AlexCrisVFX He probably wont as he said he doesn’t read YT comments, but if an editor with channel access sees this they definitely should
Yup. It's the big reason, as you pointed out, why players started playing fast decks as opposed to the best winning decks. If I can play 10 games an hour and win 8 of them (assuming 1000 per win and ~1200 per loss) then I'm up 5600 points. But if I can play 15 games and win 11, I'm up 6200 points, even though I'm going from an 80% win rate to 73% win rate. And this was assuming maximum loss points, which will only rarely be the case. As long as you can stay positive, quantity beats quality.
I just want the gems. Don't care a single bit of the 2nd stage.
you but there are people who wants to qualify to worlds and that's where the issue comes from.
True, Just give me the gems, let the try hards play for worlds.
I do the same, I see there more Meta Decks is fresh Air for me I am mostly in Plat, I should grind more
OK? Then this is clearly not about OR for you. Some people DO want to qualify and compete.
Gems are awesome 😎 most people don't care about second stage 😜 they helped a to build my centurion white forest toy box deck for free 🆓
The point system minimum of 1,000 points per win is what truly breaks the DC and makes it a point ladder instead of an Elo system. With this implementation, even if the event was a week long, like in Pokemon, all it would do is extend the amount of time world level players like Joshua Schmidt hurt themselves to win.
Using the same players topping as evidence for the skillfullness of the DC is heavily biased data, you have to factor in that the competitive base actually willing to attempt the climb is so minuscule, it’s actually very likely you’ll see the same names topping every time. 99.9% of the possible competition isn’t going to bother or physically can’t spend 60+ hours grinding the tournament.
Fascinating that the same people without jobs don't get jobs between each dc
Literally, its just a time based grind
Are you guys really under the impression that like only ten people in the world are the ones competing in the DC?
There is almost certainly a large enough sample size of players trying that the same people making it every time is statistically significant.
@@SDREHXC Sure, but so is the fact that it requires a 60+ hour time commitment. I'm sure that, among the people willing to take that grind, skill is a significant factor, but at least as significant is the fact that a lot of potentially equally skilled players cannot possibly commit the amount of time necessary to compete.
No way they they got Blunder 6-0d by lead zen mode darmanitan-galar in a farfa video
After the cypher reference, I've been seeing Blunder everywhere else.
agency wont ever forget
Could be worse, could have been the Toxapex choke.
yeah, could be started with "As you can see..."
Agency Agency
9:10 Crazy that assuming a nonofficial tournament having no cash prizes has become the norm for yugi-centered people.
No cash prizes in official tournaments either!
I don't know what you're talking about, the biggest unofficial MD tournaments have cash prizes.
There just happen to be circumstances surrounding those tourneys that arguably make them less appealing, like being run by a muppet.
ARG was similar even back in ancient times. Unofficial cash prize tournaments that are somewhat big, but also alienate a lot of the pleayerbase. (more cheating for the cash)
I think it's more to do with it being a Nintendo property than a non-official tournament
if they are keeping the elo and invitation system as is, objectively the best way to qualify would be for multiple people to take sleeping shifts playing on the same account which is hilarious to think about.
pretty sure some people were doing that in duel link's KC cup before they got cought and banned
@@bocodamondo If they're in the same house using the same computer, it's nigh impossible to track tbh. But this isn't necessarily that good other than fitting in more rest and basically having no breaks. For one thing, they can't maximize their chances by having 3 accounts work at topping the ladder, for another, they might have varying skill levels and could just lose a bunch of points if even one of them isn't up to the standard
I choose sleep and 3 proper meals over this. the players willing to do this are just hurting themselves
26:12 most improtant part of the video, it sumarizes everything and gets the point across fast to save you 27 minutes
Putting a proper Elo system seems to be by far the best solution rather than any suggestion I'm seeing in the comments here
Degenerate Cup test your endurance as solo player, to get access to the tournament where you play strategically with your team. This system is truly peak comedy.
.
You know, Konami will NEVER stop using this Degenerate Cup. Because it is cheap and effortless, but very profitable. This is a live service game. The high number of "play rate" can be very useful to show to the shareholders, investors, or sponsor; to get more money.
Something that isnt mentioned but should be from the showdown section is how they do suspect tests. For those unfamiliar a suspect test is where if a pokemon is seen as to strong instead of banning it right away they let players vote for it. To qualify you have to reach a certain elo under a fresh account under a certain amount of games. They could do something similar here. Reach a certain score under a certain amount of games and if you go over it you can retry. Then after x amount of time you stop letting people qualify and from those players do something else to qualify. Its not perfect but imo its way better then forcing players to duel non stop to qualify.
To summarize the video, the problem with MD's elo system is that you gain to many points for a win.
A serious competitor loses about 1070 points per lost, and the amount gained for every victory is at least 1000, due to a hard coded minimum points gained.
While you still lose more than you gain on average, the problem is that a serious competitor is not gonna have a 50/50 winrate - he will often be matched against weaker opponents, which he should mostly beat, but instead of getting like 700-800 points for beating the weaker opponent's he still gets the 1000 minimum points.
That means that with a serious competitor's winrate, the more he plays the more points he get, instead of reaching an equilibrium of gaining and losing points, which is the heart of elo system.
Since the more you play the more points you gain, there is an incentive to play nonstop
Needs to be elo based to give chance for people who has life outside of md
It is a plot point (in several seasons) that someone is forced to duel so long that they're mentally and physically drained. It is referenced as torture.
One day someone will drop dead because of this and konami still won't care and people will still continue to slave in this like their life depends on it.
Blunder cameo in the Farfa video, but when’s the collab?
I just play the DC to get the gems, but that also doesn't mean I don't understand that it's an insane way to hold a tournament. Asking top players to do actual damage to their body in order to win a tournament is just a bad practice.
Not even win a tournament, just qualify for a tournament.
@@nachohangover5104 keep in mind in the other side of the game, chinese players still pushing hard despite they are not eligible to join wcs due to the fact that their country is banned.
main problem : we are so used to grind in japanese and chinese games that make this type of grind is actually normal.
The point system is definitely the biggest issue, especially because there isn't a "finish line" like they could so easily add.
What I consider an easy fix, limited number of games to qualify for the "next level." Everyone that wins all games would qualify immediately while those who lost a game or two would still likely be in the "top contenders" (so I guess top 10,000) to qualify for "level 2 of the 2nd stage," which would be a tournament style elimination that starts at a specific time.
10,000 people face off against each other, all these games could be used as a spectacle being shown off on the site like "Duel Live" except you search and see account names to watch their games.
And they could add something this game has been needing to the tournament they hype up every other month; "2 out of 3 games to win."
oh boy i cant wait to see something as acoustic as farfas chat comprehend Elo and mathematics
9:15 dude literally smogon is hosting the major world championchip every year - you quite literally qualify for the big tournament just like in yu gi oh
My problem with the 72 hour non-stop grind is that the average person will not get a chance at getting first place or not getting a high ranking due to the amount of time required while also doing other important things in their life. This means that only people who are dedicated to Yugioh and/or play this game for a living (which is mostly a mistake) can actually qualify.
I do agree that the invitation is dumb. Why are you allowed to invite someone on to your team if they didn't even participate or get a high rank in the first place?
I like the 3v3 format and the different decks teams are forced to bring and strategize around, just ban the damn bug and it will be so much better.
Definitely my biggest gripe with DC is the invite system. It just feels wrong that I could grind my ass off for a WCQ inivte, buy a homless man a tablet, make him download masterduel, and all of a sudden that homeless man is competing in worlds because i decided i want him on my team. if they want to keep the team format (which i hope they keep) than i really think teams should have to register as teams before DC and the team's collective preformance determins their placement within the event.
Ah yes, because sacrificing yourself for a weekend to make it to world's and then sabotage all that work by inviting some random is very realistic
I think regardless of all the math that the DC second stage could be organized better considering how much time is necessary to qualify. Yeah, the system works, but there’s always room for improvement. I don’t know what that solution would be though
Just having a normal Elo System would fix many of the problems.
make DC cup ELO BASED the same way chess is
The argument that "people will always grind as hard as possible to get an edge" or "more people in the elo system means more grind" just isnt true when you dont have an elo system that encourages that. You can easily set up and tune an elo system to reduce grind. For example most of the games that discourage "secondary/smurf accounts" like dota or league will give "fast lanes" to players who keep outperforming everyone. So you can get massive elo rating gains with few games just by showing your skill. So a pro dota player can get an unranked fresh account into top tier elo in a week easily while a scrub might grind away for his entire life without ever seeing top tier.
This also should be your goal to reduce "wasted games" where a top tier player stomps a bottom tier player because they still havent seperated their elo enough. You want sharp elo changes that gradually get slower the closer you get to the "true elo" of the player. MD meanwhile slows you down the further up you go in the latter and has a wierd "non cap". Most elo system have a soft highest rank that you can reach. MD just forces you to turn into a fucking point hoarding goblin because it allows it. Other elo systems would just give you +1 point per match you win so you basically get no benefit if you keep winning but there also is no punishment for not playing because you dont loose points.
Thats the main issue the fact that you can keep playing to keep gaining elo. Why tf are you able to gain more elo while already rank 1 with a massive gap between you and anyone else.
Elo systems can be frustrating but the one they use in MD is just infuriating because its ridiciously punishing. More games = Higher rating makes no sense and is a flawed elo system imo.
Such a system doesnt test skill past your barebones winrate. You just need an above average winrate and then your rating is decided by game count not by actual skill.
how about hosting the DC cup over a longer period of time for a 3rd stage and reworking the second stage to be a bracket tournament, where once you win/place highly in enough bracket tournaments, you are guaranteed the option to go to third stage on the basis of competing for a world's qualifier spot (a prompt will come up before they enter the third stage pool), those who beat the second stage but don't want to qualify can cash in their winnings for rewards and , taking them out of the competing pool of people. The people that don't want to go to worlds but still want to compete in duelist cup second stage can re-enter bracket tournaments from the start again to grind for rewards in a redeamable shop. In the third stage, over two to three weeks, you are limited to 30-40 ish games a day and it's regular elo rated games in the proper worlds format, which would run parallel to other events, you playtest and deckbuild as best as possible in that time you have, therefore it could still be skilltesting as you would get a lot of games done in total (~420 games), but wouldn't require you to play 63 hours of yugioh in a three day window to have a shot at going to worlds.
16:22 I wish I got to see Josh's whole reaction to that lol.
you're in luck, I have the timestamp for it lol. That game takes place 12 hours and 2 minutes (12:02:00) into the video "Joshua Schmidt grinds Master Duel for 24h to get a World Championship Invite" on the Joshua Schmidt VODs channel
The DC should have a hard limit on the number of duels a player can do in the 2nd stage that will actually count towards their final rating. I'd suggest a minimum of 50 duels to qualify and a maximum of 150, and your winrate in those duels is what matters, not the amount of total wins. You can keep dueling after your 150 if you want to try and knock other players down by beating them, but your own rating won't move after that point.
People are about to play 70 hours of Tenpai. They might break 1000 games played.
I'm pretty sure I always get like top 10k every duelist cup, getting to the 10k point mark is usually free as you will always gain more then you lose there at that stage you're just looking to win 4-5 games more then loses to reach the top 10k bracket with about 14-15k points sometimes you need a bit higher depends on participations. I pretty much exclusively play Resonators so you don't even need to use something that is remotely close to a meta deck to get there either.
When I do DC it’s purely for gems , I’ve only made it to 2nd stage once and didn’t much cause I know I’m not making a dent in the ladder
Same. I was so disappointed that there are no gems for 2nd stage! At least not in any significant amount…
7:37 Dueling Nexus
Yeah as long as the Elo system they're implementing doesn't reward so many games played but just consistently beating higher ranked players would be good. It really could be that the hours don't matter as much as a very fair point system. They have the playerbase to implement something like this. I'm fairly convinced by the math presented here
When I play any DC event, two of the biggest factors for me playing is obtaining a good amount of gems and testing out some of my more competitive builds for my favorite decks to see how far along I've come along.
The first two days however are extremely frustrating, especially when it's just, do you have the counter for Maxx C? If not I lose.
Oh choosing to go second against the very best strategies and not having any out to their board? I lose.
I play more ranked during DC events because at least the sweats are gone for a bit.
Word. It’s nice when the ranks clear up a bit.
The Duelist Cup wouldn’t even be such a drag if the format was actually fun. I’ve played a few games of the current one and it’s been a coin toss competition. And I don’t have it in me to play competitively seriously anymore.
It should just be seperated in parts like specific day or specific ohour of the day would help people and be more active at that time so we have more player
I think a better format would be to limit 100 duels over the three days. You can do around 30-40 duels a day which would take around 10-12 hours,leaving them 12 hours to rest, sleep, eat, etc... From there just place them.
The Outofcharacters channel makes excellent content
Making a minimum games played threshold and going off of win percentage seems to just be so mind numbingly easy of a fix.
EDIT: I highly doubt the same people closely related to YGO tournaments and YGO content creation having 60+ hours to grind an online YGO tournament and topping said tournament is meaningful. Sure the skill amongst them is probably important but most working people simply don't have that kind of time.
I personally think it’s better to have 100 matches instead of playing infinite games until 72 hours. and the top 5 players qualify for WC
The same DC that Josh grinded for 3 days is the thing that made me quit Master Duel. I like the game, and I was having fun when I came back to Master Duel, but forcing me to play Tear after Tear after Spright after Tear was a fantastic way to showcase the absolute _worst_ that the game has to offer.
I just want to open my fucking secret packs, and the most efficient way to do that by far is willingly entering a hellqueue. I just lost my appetite for the game after that.
If worlds is 3 players, why not bind 3 accounts to the 72 hours event and only allow 1 account to be dueling at one time
BunsGlazing mentioned
All they have to do is limit it to 100 duels. That's it. That would be manageable for most of the competitive playerbase while significantly cutting the grind. Doesn't reduce the skill requirement to win as well because now you're actually competing with MORE people even taking into consideration that the sample size for duels getting cut down. It's just always been a terrible system and I'm surprised it hasn't been clamored about more, especially in the MD subreddit. Other live service games would fix such an egregious issue asap but it seems konami dgaf, because nobody is complaining, really. This also stops people running the "most efficient" decks and can actually play decks that take longer to combo off to DC.
Also I keep seeing people saying "not everything has to be for everyone". No it doesn't have to be, but the duelist cup filters 99.95% of players, because quite literally it is physically impossible for most. That's a terrible way to narrow down a population of competitive players. Not every competitive player is an insomniac jobless nerd. We got lives, limit it to 100 duels, allow players to do normal things like sleeping and taking a dump. Even olympians get rest before their competition. For some reason people don't give a damn here, seems to me people dropping these comments are those ranked casuals that dont even participate in DC at all. Probably lose to hard meta in stage 1 a few times and quit, then drop these: "not everything is for everyone" comment. Absolute idiocy.
Let's be honest here. Most players just play to get the gems. Not only that, but it gets boring playing against the same meta decks for 72+ hours just so that you can qualify to play against them more at a tournament. People have other things to do in life. A solution would be to have a more stretched out DC system where each region can play during certain times of the day that won't interfere with other things for example in the USA you have competitors play from 6pm - Midnight. That way, you everyone from the USA can do other things and plan accordingly.
If you dont give a shit and only want the gems, the Duelist cup ends at DL 19 of stage one and its fine.
Anything beyond that is shit
I mean they're not forced to do that. If you want to win rhen put in the work.
Can someone please tell Farfa he can speed up the video with ">" (shift + .)
I dont understand why the Duelist Cup needs to be 2 stages, just make it a single stage, 3-4 weeks long and once people get to duelist level 20, they automatically start getting points.
Removes the short time frame of Stage2 and lets people rest.
If Konami could also fix the Elo system and properly reduce point gain at high levels, spamming games wouldnt be the best way to play DC either
Or maybe just make new stage,let 2nd stage participant only for those whose doesnt qualify and both qualifier fight each other in the 3rd stage for last qualifier (?)
This doesn't necessarily fix anything. One way around this is to just build your team of 3 and all play on that one account for that 3-4 week time frame. Sure it let's people rest but then you just end up with a situation where the person or persons that can dedicate the most time to it will win. And the people who can't play nonstop for a month won't move on
Stage 1 is clearly for the gems. It's done that way to basically keep casual players out of the higher levels. That's why you'll level up to 16 despite losing a lot.
That outro 😂😂😂😂
DC should be about being good at the game not being the one who play the most amount of games, i'm very sure there are many players who had 70% or even 80% winrate but they are nowhere near elligible to qualify just because there are 55% winrate players who play all day and sharing their account to grind 24/7, i think the best thing to do is have a limit of 10 to 20 games a day for each account so that the best players will be the ones with actually the best skills
TLDR: Master Duel uses the League of Legends genius system of "rewarding win rate and nothing else".
Peak game design.
Why don't they just make it over a full month at least 3 days is just ridiculous
Hello Farfa how are you?
I don´t get why they don´t do digital qualifiers for each region on a weekend where the top 8-16 duelists of each region based off ladder/duelist cup points can play for the main event
Why not make a rest day between the 3 days? Still 72 hours to play, but ppl can relax and take care of their needs.
why not make it one day only, what's the difference ?
DC Cup is the most bege event on them all. Aside from the top 0.000000001% of players, everyone just plays for the gems and nothing else.
imagine thinking konami will have a good system in place
Did i accidentally qualify for something or something?
Blame Duel Links for not changing anything with their own DC cup for years
How about we blame the real all encompassing party: Konami
time to put THIS video on times 2 so that the monotonous generic overly stretched out wordy youtube documentary is more bareable.
This is a pokemon video
I find conversations like these really pointless because Konami does not listen to anyone and will just keep doing what they're doing. Duel Links started this structure with the KC Cup years ago and now Master Duel has it too. As long as it keeps doing whatever they want it to do they will keep doing it.
HOWEVER to anyone who enjoys the conversation more power to you. I just wanted to vent a little :)
2nd stage sucks, but i love gems so 1st stage untouched pleaseeeee i neeed thisss
The answer is Yes because it sucks ass
Farfa where keys
Don't think Pokemon Showdown is a reasonable comparison. It's not Official, and you've got extremely doctored formats that the plp that run smogen just ban what ever they don't like. Even in Yu-Gi-Oh you'll see random cheese tactics, while Smogen say's no to high RNG starts like OHKO moves.
Also want to point out, the Current running game (Scarlet/Violet) do have official tournaments for there main events you can try to qualify for, that you'll see things you may never see on Showdown just because of the doctored formats they have.
They were comparing how the top players qualify for a tournament via the online ladder not Pokemon vs. Yugioh as games.
And as the video points out, most of the qualifier reqs are the same if not similar. The main difference is Smogon uses an actual ELO system and thus doesn't require players tortuting themselves to qualify.
yes
I just wanna get top 5k dont care for worlds
Ahhh. It all makes sense now. All of my games in the DC so far have been against pros. That’s why I can win a duel. It’s been fixed from the start!
Showdown is a sim with no animation, no nothing it he like dc on edopro
No matter what, either way, players wouldn't be happy. Players aren't happy about it now because they have to give up a few days and do nothing but spam games on repeat. But if they changed it you'd be upsetting the players that like the grind and have no problem with ignoring the outside world for a weekend. Capping the number of games played also introduces other variance. Just as an example if I'm capped at 200 games for the weekend then the time of day I choose to do my games becomes a greater factor than it is now. I could just do my games during the times in which the higher skilled opponents may be sleeping. Or I could wait out my games until theyve completed theirs. You'd still have competition but you could start to do things to give you a bigger advantage based on the limited number of games you're allowed to play.
They could still reduce the grind by keeping everything else the same and just changing the caps on gaining and losing points to a more traditional ELO system.
Smogon is unofficial and they and their community take themselves way too seriously. They are NOT a good measure of competition in pokemon games just as Wikipedia is NOT a recommended primary source of information. Smogon is a fan base and not officially a creation of Game Freak or Pokemon company. I personally would take anything anyone in that community says with a grain of salt.
You want honest pokemon competitive information? Look at Verlisify. Dude is one of the only voices of sanity in the entire competitive pokemon community.
"Verlisify"
"voice of sanity"
Pick one, lmao.
You can disagree with Smogon on its opinions on competitive Pokemon and still compare its tournament structures to Masterduel since as the video points out there's a lot of similarities.
And objevtively speaking, the grinding on the ladder to qualify for Smogon's OLT is a fraction of the grinding you need to do to qualify for Worlds with Masterduel.
Whether or not you think Masterduel's qualifiers structure is better or worse is subjective, but objectively OLT is less taxing on its top players.
masterful bait
smorgen stuff isnt just for fun lol, you get badged if you vote in enough banlist suspescts which you need to ladder for. Being badged on smorgen is like the first power trip you get on that site lol. That and being able to directly have an impact on the banlist.
(although we voted to unban moody and evasion in gen v ubers so whether users having an impact like that is a good thing or not is debatable because those unbans went through lmao)
that being said i dont remmeber ladder tournaments being a thing when i was active there, so presumably stuff has changed