I agree. Its just good gametheory. I think openings in a perfect play scensrio would be a mixed strat. Just like in poker in many parts of the game tree you have mixed strategys with the same hand.
Artosis, letting that first goon run by into the main is an equivalent to letting a first vulture in. The fact that the terran is still slightly ahead, is pretty damn good. When there is no significant early damage from the goon, terran will be good 6 workers ahead...they're also going to be immediately ahead against 12 nexus or late scout openers. 14cc is fine and there's a reason it is coming back more, even against someone like Snow who doesn't 12 nex as much and always scouts pretty early.
Maybe. Though part of the question was if it's worth taking the risk that 30% of the time it's an instant loss. Even if no 'goon got into the main, there's still no guarantee that you'll win. So statistically speaking, you're starting off with a 30% deficit (total win/loss ratio), if I understand the question correctly.
@@avinotion Same as nexus before forge in PvZ, victory isn't guaranteed but more options appear. Good to have as a mix in your arsenal, good to pull out on shitty maps, etc. Against Snow in particular, I'd say possibilities are not in your favor, but what do I know :)
1:30 lmaoooo "Already there some builds that were kinda good against it. Which, ah, included...Oh My God... Is he going Command Center first? This is insane" I did love that simcity with the depot & rax making a little pocket for the probe to spin around inside, just extra pathing that stopped a deeper probe scout. Unfortunately, reverse ramps amirite? The SCVs were a moment too late, and the 1st goon gets in by the one matrix lower reverse ramps widen by. The second goon was unlucky grabbed SCVs, but maybe there's a way to prevent that? But to prevent it, should be paired with another action: temporarily rallying the main SCs to the ramp, to then manually transfer to nat from there, rather than sending direct from CC or rally down to nat. Even if SCVs idle a moment longer, they serve to body block early runbys until defense is established. Similar concept to using the top of ramp as a "cutoff man" in baseball, can either look off a runner to stop them from advancing another base, or relay a throw home to catch a runner. I think this small change could enable good players to take these risky CC first builds, and minimize the window for these type of single unit devastations, an especially critical safety mechanism if you also skip marine production for SCVs, at least while you are only defending with bunker and marines, especially when main has wide ramps. To be clear, I'm not saying to leave one SCV there at all times like an SC2 probe denying shadein. I'm saying the the top of the ramp is a better place to make a decision for an SCV meant for transfer rather than boat racing the runby unit with an SCV returning from a mineral line or locating an SCV mid transfer to reroute. Injured SCVs get sent to back to main mineral line to avoid accidental situation for goon 2. The "lost potential mining" is infinitesimal to the damage of YOLO runbys, it is a different philosophy from optimization, it comes from a perspective of "damage mitigation" or "harm reduction". Or could be looked at as "Preventative Care" check ups, to catch a health concern with a manageable treatment, rather than waiting for a problem to show symptoms for doctor visit. Takes the same amount of actions as any other single SCV transfer from main, only maynarding or setting rally same as Nat CC rally takes less actions, and picking it up from the main cc to send to Nat takes MORE actions for single SCV transfers. Main rally can change when Rax lands on lowground / factory units are out. Honestly I wouldn't have thought about it for this situation, but now I think it might be good for all gasless expands, you can see both the natural mineral line and both CC SCV rallypoints when fixing a camera angle for the natural. And I think it'd be even more effective in laggy situations, when even godlike reflexes are at the mercy of high latency.
CC first is probably something a terran who competes in tournaments should do sometimes just to keep his opponent guessing, but statistically speaking it looks like a terrible play. Also, 2 factory addon makes 4 tanks a minute.
snow is unbeatable PvT atm.... thats the best/luckiest early set up against his reaver ive seen in like 30-40 of his recent games against top players and he still dominates the macro game. Very impressive.
you know the reaver will come, you have to plan for it. Snow on the fly switches to a heavier macro build as soon as the first reaver is shut down and you're over committed. Crazy. And this is fricken LIGHT
I think it's important to realise that games like this are important to figure out what works and what doesn't. For one player, making a clear strong decision at the start, against someone they know is the best in the world, can give them some really good feedback. It's not a mistake, its research.
Okay setting aside the CC first question (which I have no clue how to answer), what could Light have done better? Say he doesn't get his first army wiped in that bad move-out and instead just uses that army to protect his 3rd as it's being made. Snow replies by taking his 3rd as well and then continues roaming with his army, clearing mines, going for more reaver harass, and teching towards speed shuttles and zealot legs, and then reaches a critical mass where he can take his 4th and 5th very quickly. What do you do against that as Terran?
Light's first push was definitely not a good one. Just like Artosis said: Light needed more vultures. After all of that it was a slippery slope at this point: less units for the 2nd push and lack of necessary units on the last push from Snow Snow also made a few questionable decisions: Snow's speed shuttles counter attacks did almost no damage and if he had at least one for a defense he could have clean up 2nd push much quicker
I think at the highest level they try to balance out the build orders, to add some kind of variancy and be unpredictable. You could argue though that it's kind of weird to do so at the ladder, but I can imagine the level these 2 are at they have to mix in all kind of mind games, even in practice.
I much prefer gasless rax expand but I don't play. It just seems like the stronger and more viable build. As Artosis once said, CC first "is not even a build". I agree with Artosis, mathematically it's just riskier with less reward. I think CC first is a build you do in very specific situations, such as when Light did it in ASL against Bisu, who also went Nexus first. Light knew Bisu might try that I think as Bisu was doing Nexus first frequently. I think it's only good against Nexus first basically. You saw what Snow was able to do with cross spawn Dragoon first just by running by.
If you're going to CC first, why not go 100% all in and make the wall in front w/ supply depot and rax, or at the very least wall w/ the bunk or ensure 2 scvs are sitting at ramp so nothing can runby. Light would have been fine and well ahead if the Goons didn't get by. Secondly, Terrans not walling/hardening the third for inevitable Protoss counter attack is unforgivable at this point. Building chokepoints and a bunker with bats to erase zlots takes the wind out of the sail of a gatewayman push. I challenge all Terrans to experiment with bats in bunkers with walls to discourage runbys.
@@urconway To be fair, Zerg has an easier time vs Protoss than Terran does. But still yes, Snow is an absolute beast, even in PvZ. But his PvT is basically immortal, only prime Flash could take it head on these days...
@@helloken Sadly Flash likely isnt coming back due to the crypto bullshit and with such a long layoff + him getting up in age + multiple arm/wrist injuries, even if he did, im not sure he could best Snow in Bo5/Bo7 series. But its Flash, so who knows.
Why do Terran pros always forget to make Vultures? This isn't the first game where I saw 8 tanks and 6 Vultures. Shouldn't somebody be figuring out the Tank-Vulture golden ratio for a mech army by now?
That CC first might've worked better had he blocked the ramp. He still would've taken some damage - but look how more damage he took overall vs. losing a couple SCVs on the ramp. Maybe also pressure by popping marine out of bunker to poke and run him back if he takes damage. The first marine was defending nothing while the first dragoon ravaged the base, that wasted minerals and time.
I think we should be honest about the situation of this game. Before Lights first moveout at 10:30, that T position might be something you don't have strong feelings about either way if you end up there in a ladder game, and probably disappointing for a CC first opening. But this is likely a better situation that Light finds himself in than usual, against Snow at that point in the game. I honestly thought this would be a game Light would win, since he was stable against Snow at 10:30 and is a ruthless Terran. He is immediately behind hardcore after that first moveout though. I see a lot of Terran moveouts recently that seem the clear point when the game was lost, yet I feel that the Korean players probably have a good idea about it, I think there might be some strong theory that you might need to mix in early aggression and really check the Protoss Gateway unit count. That said, maybe just maybe Light might have been overly keen after defeating the shuttles. watching Snow these days I think it might be strongly overrated how bad it is to lose a Reaver compared to say 2 tanks. as P we usually think "my Reaver died without doing anything gg" but this largely comes from a place of relying on reavers at 7 minutes. Snow is suiciding his 3rd or 4th reaver to do minimal damage at 13 minutes while getting pushed and it doesn't really matter at all. The 2 reavers Snow dives with before Lights moveout might seem like they are what might make a T decide to push, killing a tank and forcing some repairs looks bad but with standard macro benchmarks Snow he still had enough units to defend because he was always Gateway man from the beginning.
The CC first could have worked, but Light seemed to be too eager to push his small army... if he would have waited a little longer to get up a better army and economy it would have been a longer hard-fought game
I think it is especially at lights levels its probably worth it. If light was a little faster with that fitst scv block on the ramp he would have had time to make get all 3 of his marines in the bunker and probably would have only lost 1/2 scvs instead of 6 hours of mining time
2/3 chance they are not cross, 1/2 probe goes the right direction scouting in those cases, so 1/3 chance of getting immediately scouted. Then it's a matter of when the protoss scouts, and whether zealot open happens to hit in time, so definitely worth tossing it in now and again, particularly if you think your opponent likes skipping zealot
Protoss is actually the weakest race by a good margin. 48% winrate is about the number people have found from analyzing a wide pool of games. It just seems really strong at lower levels because terran and zerg are a good bit mechanically harder to play and Protoss units are so efficient, so Protoss leans stronger until you get to the pro level. Terran essentially has an infinite skill ceiling whereas someone like Snow is pushing Protoss almost as hard as it can go, and then the inherent weaknesses of Protoss are becoming a lot more obvious. I mean, look at how bad Bisu has done lately in a lot of these recent casts and tournaments, and he's the guy who basically showed that you *could win with Protoss*
On the other hand maybe where players like Snow and Motive have pushed Protoss to shows there's a lot more that could be done to win these games that Protoss are losing. But there's always the issue of running into Zergs like soulkey
CC first is not nearly as good as Nexus first or HAtchery first. Zerg and Protoss can win early fights but Terran can't. Faster winning fights = faster expansions. CC first is not good. Toss can also just double expand and Terran can't punish it.
12 nexus - 50% autowin, 50% lose the nexus, game is fair, play on. 14cc: 50% of the time you lose instantly, 50% of the time you come out even. PvT is truly the most imbalanced matchup in all of starcraft lmao. Watching the SC vs Sc2 games and seeing how they nerfed the crap out of protoss in Sc2 was very amusing.
funny that Terran has had a consistent winning lead over Protoss over most of the game's pro history and still people talk like this. It's only true at levels below pro. There are 0 Protoss bonjwas in the history of Brood War, and 4/5 are Terrans. Go figure.
Snow is one of the very few Protoss who can make it *look* like a winning matchup, but then go watch any of the other Protoss pros and how a few siege tanks and spider mines can *auto target* a huge army out of existence and win the game. It's like listening to melee Fox mains whining about how the best character in the entire game can still lose to other matchups if their opponent is better than them
@@yallimsorry5983 Hilariously Team Liquid SC experts did a huge study about why there's so many Terran Bonjwas, and it's because (like the rest of terran), TvT is a highly technical SKILL-BASED matchup. There were no Protoss bonjwas mainly because PvP is heavily rock paper scissors and bc Z>P. If one guy makes DT, the other guy can be Bisu but if he doesn't have obs he's dead. If I make 4 gateways and you make 3, then my dragoon beat your dragoon. Before Bisu protoss mostly flailed around in PvZ and died. Nice try though. PvT throughout all of BW even with "4 terran Bonjwas" has favored P for over a decade, go look up the stats. I think out of 20 years there were 2 that terran had a winning PvT rate. d.
Игры
Mobile spoiler wall
unfortunately Zerg wins~ T_T
The thing is, that the length of the video itself is the spoiler.
@@mayalabo3906soulkey strikes again 😂
That was one of the juiciest Psi Storms I've ever witnessed.
CC first is like a 4pool. Gotta roll one out sometimes to keep them honest. In football, it’s called establishing the run. In poker it’s called range.
I agree. Its just good gametheory. I think openings in a perfect play scensrio would be a mixed strat. Just like in poker in many parts of the game tree you have mixed strategys with the same hand.
Don't. Artosis does NOT want to hear this.
Unpopular opinion: I Don't think CC first is worth it.
The *only* thing it's good against is Nexus first. Literally. As you see even one dragoon absolutely tears it apart.
With how often Protoss are going Nexus first now, it's just to keep them honest.
It isn't worth it because Protoss can just take free 3rd and 4th because Terran doesn't have enough army to punish.
@@ertert4tetert 1 Rax FE counters it just fine.
"the vultures tank for the tanks" lol T_T
Artosis, letting that first goon run by into the main is an equivalent to letting a first vulture in. The fact that the terran is still slightly ahead, is pretty damn good. When there is no significant early damage from the goon, terran will be good 6 workers ahead...they're also going to be immediately ahead against 12 nexus or late scout openers.
14cc is fine and there's a reason it is coming back more, even against someone like Snow who doesn't 12 nex as much and always scouts pretty early.
is it worth the risk? Rather something you mix in every 10 games, so protoss doesnt get to greedy themselves
Maybe. Though part of the question was if it's worth taking the risk that 30% of the time it's an instant loss.
Even if no 'goon got into the main, there's still no guarantee that you'll win.
So statistically speaking, you're starting off with a 30% deficit (total win/loss ratio), if I understand the question correctly.
@@avinotion Same as nexus before forge in PvZ, victory isn't guaranteed but more options appear. Good to have as a mix in your arsenal, good to pull out on shitty maps, etc. Against Snow in particular, I'd say possibilities are not in your favor, but what do I know :)
You seem to be trying to tell artosis that expanding is good. Do you know where you are?
Artosis?
Snow being Snow…
You’re such a Snow!
Well, time to go do this exact build on the ladder right now
1:30 lmaoooo "Already there some builds that were kinda good against it. Which, ah, included...Oh My God... Is he going Command Center first? This is insane"
I did love that simcity with the depot & rax making a little pocket for the probe to spin around inside, just extra pathing that stopped a deeper probe scout. Unfortunately, reverse ramps amirite? The SCVs were a moment too late, and the 1st goon gets in by the one matrix lower reverse ramps widen by. The second goon was unlucky grabbed SCVs, but maybe there's a way to prevent that? But to prevent it, should be paired with another action: temporarily rallying the main SCs to the ramp, to then manually transfer to nat from there, rather than sending direct from CC or rally down to nat.
Even if SCVs idle a moment longer, they serve to body block early runbys until defense is established.
Similar concept to using the top of ramp as a "cutoff man" in baseball, can either look off a runner to stop them from advancing another base, or relay a throw home to catch a runner. I think this small change could enable good players to take these risky CC first builds, and minimize the window for these type of single unit devastations, an especially critical safety mechanism if you also skip marine production for SCVs, at least while you are only defending with bunker and marines, especially when main has wide ramps. To be clear, I'm not saying to leave one SCV there at all times like an SC2 probe denying shadein. I'm saying the the top of the ramp is a better place to make a decision for an SCV meant for transfer rather than boat racing the runby unit with an SCV returning from a mineral line or locating an SCV mid transfer to reroute. Injured SCVs get sent to back to main mineral line to avoid accidental situation for goon 2.
The "lost potential mining" is infinitesimal to the damage of YOLO runbys, it is a different philosophy from optimization, it comes from a perspective of "damage mitigation" or "harm reduction". Or could be looked at as "Preventative Care" check ups, to catch a health concern with a manageable treatment, rather than waiting for a problem to show symptoms for doctor visit. Takes the same amount of actions as any other single SCV transfer from main, only maynarding or setting rally same as Nat CC rally takes less actions, and picking it up from the main cc to send to Nat takes MORE actions for single SCV transfers. Main rally can change when Rax lands on lowground / factory units are out. Honestly I wouldn't have thought about it for this situation, but now I think it might be good for all gasless expands, you can see both the natural mineral line and both CC SCV rallypoints when fixing a camera angle for the natural. And I think it'd be even more effective in laggy situations, when even godlike reflexes are at the mercy of high latency.
15:48 This is execution not a fight! Snow is a monster.
CC first is probably something a terran who competes in tournaments should do sometimes just to keep his opponent guessing, but statistically speaking it looks like a terrible play.
Also, 2 factory addon makes 4 tanks a minute.
It was a TvZ in ASL on invader that had a CC first which led to like 4-6 more marines down the line if I recall correctly
Light was like that bike guy putting a stick in his wheel. His pushes were terrible and he should have waited longer.
snow is unbeatable PvT atm.... thats the best/luckiest early set up against his reaver ive seen in like 30-40 of his recent games against top players and he still dominates the macro game. Very impressive.
you know the reaver will come, you have to plan for it. Snow on the fly switches to a heavier macro build as soon as the first reaver is shut down and you're over committed. Crazy. And this is fricken LIGHT
ARTOSIS FOR PRESIDENT
tastless for Vice~ XD
@@mayalabo3906 pass, Tasteless has made some s tatements and has legit supported BG3 Beastality in a slip up.
Artosis for president !
theres financial investment strategies that are similar i.e. the risk and reward being proportional
I think it's important to realise that games like this are important to figure out what works and what doesn't. For one player, making a clear strong decision at the start, against someone they know is the best in the world, can give them some really good feedback. It's not a mistake, its research.
Okay setting aside the CC first question (which I have no clue how to answer), what could Light have done better? Say he doesn't get his first army wiped in that bad move-out and instead just uses that army to protect his 3rd as it's being made. Snow replies by taking his 3rd as well and then continues roaming with his army, clearing mines, going for more reaver harass, and teching towards speed shuttles and zealot legs, and then reaches a critical mass where he can take his 4th and 5th very quickly. What do you do against that as Terran?
The answer is to avoid playing Snow on the ladder. Worked for me so far!
Agreed.. even if he did a less greedy open he would've had a hard time. Maybe if you cheese Snow u have a chance but everything is risky
Light's first push was definitely not a good one. Just like Artosis said: Light needed more vultures. After all of that it was a slippery slope at this point: less units for the 2nd push and lack of necessary units on the last push from Snow
Snow also made a few questionable decisions: Snow's speed shuttles counter attacks did almost no damage and if he had at least one for a defense he could have clean up 2nd push much quicker
Yeah I second that Light could have just not played against Snow. Every Terran knows not to play against Snow except when absolutely necessary.
I think at the highest level they try to balance out the build orders, to add some kind of variancy and be unpredictable. You could argue though that it's kind of weird to do so at the ladder, but I can imagine the level these 2 are at they have to mix in all kind of mind games, even in practice.
Would you consider casting some Beyond All Reason gameplay sir? Keep it up!
Artosis explains why he doesn't get a 3rd CC until 14 minutes: IT'S LITERALLY DEATH NOW IF YOU DON'T
"Guys it's Snow vs Light... what else do you need to know?" How to give a bunch of gamer nerd-chills in 5 seconds XD.
I much prefer gasless rax expand but I don't play. It just seems like the stronger and more viable build. As Artosis once said, CC first "is not even a build". I agree with Artosis, mathematically it's just riskier with less reward.
I think CC first is a build you do in very specific situations, such as when Light did it in ASL against Bisu, who also went Nexus first. Light knew Bisu might try that I think as Bisu was doing Nexus first frequently.
I think it's only good against Nexus first basically. You saw what Snow was able to do with cross spawn Dragoon first just by running by.
Yeah pretty much fully agree with you
Zerg wins.
dude, spoilers! Please!
LFG
hoping he busts out the reavers
If you're going to CC first, why not go 100% all in and make the wall in front w/ supply depot and rax, or at the very least wall w/ the bunk or ensure 2 scvs are sitting at ramp so nothing can runby.
Light would have been fine and well ahead if the Goons didn't get by.
Secondly, Terrans not walling/hardening the third for inevitable Protoss counter attack is unforgivable at this point. Building chokepoints and a bunker with bats to erase zlots takes the wind out of the sail of a gatewayman push. I challenge all Terrans to experiment with bats in bunkers with walls to discourage runbys.
Snow walked over Light. 😅
Snow is such a beast. Still can’t believe soulkey took him down
@@urconway To be fair, Zerg has an easier time vs Protoss than Terran does. But still yes, Snow is an absolute beast, even in PvZ. But his PvT is basically immortal, only prime Flash could take it head on these days...
@@helloken Sadly Flash likely isnt coming back due to the crypto bullshit and with such a long layoff + him getting up in age + multiple arm/wrist injuries, even if he did, im not sure he could best Snow in Bo5/Bo7 series. But its Flash, so who knows.
Why do Terran pros always forget to make Vultures? This isn't the first game where I saw 8 tanks and 6 Vultures.
Shouldn't somebody be figuring out the Tank-Vulture golden ratio for a mech army by now?
heckin first
ggs
That CC first might've worked better had he blocked the ramp. He still would've taken some damage - but look how more damage he took overall vs. losing a couple SCVs on the ramp. Maybe also pressure by popping marine out of bunker to poke and run him back if he takes damage. The first marine was defending nothing while the first dragoon ravaged the base, that wasted minerals and time.
I think we should be honest about the situation of this game. Before Lights first moveout at 10:30, that T position might be something you don't have strong feelings about either way if you end up there in a ladder game, and probably disappointing for a CC first opening. But this is likely a better situation that Light finds himself in than usual, against Snow at that point in the game. I honestly thought this would be a game Light would win, since he was stable against Snow at 10:30 and is a ruthless Terran. He is immediately behind hardcore after that first moveout though.
I see a lot of Terran moveouts recently that seem the clear point when the game was lost, yet I feel that the Korean players probably have a good idea about it, I think there might be some strong theory that you might need to mix in early aggression and really check the Protoss Gateway unit count.
That said, maybe just maybe Light might have been overly keen after defeating the shuttles. watching Snow these days I think it might be strongly overrated how bad it is to lose a Reaver compared to say 2 tanks. as P we usually think "my Reaver died without doing anything gg" but this largely comes from a place of relying on reavers at 7 minutes. Snow is suiciding his 3rd or 4th reaver to do minimal damage at 13 minutes while getting pushed and it doesn't really matter at all. The 2 reavers Snow dives with before Lights moveout might seem like they are what might make a T decide to push, killing a tank and forcing some repairs looks bad but with standard macro benchmarks Snow he still had enough units to defend because he was always Gateway man from the beginning.
The CC first could have worked, but Light seemed to be too eager to push his small army... if he would have waited a little longer to get up a better army and economy it would have been a longer hard-fought game
I think it is especially at lights levels its probably worth it. If light was a little faster with that fitst scv block on the ramp he would have had time to make get all 3 of his marines in the bunker and probably would have only lost 1/2 scvs instead of 6 hours of mining time
The balls on the CC first lol
Shouldve made 3 cc's in a row. That's where the power is.
P
O.P
Basically CC first is Terran's 4 pool ?
2/3 chance they are not cross, 1/2 probe goes the right direction scouting in those cases, so 1/3 chance of getting immediately scouted. Then it's a matter of when the protoss scouts, and whether zealot open happens to hit in time, so definitely worth tossing it in now and again, particularly if you think your opponent likes skipping zealot
Wow
This loss wasn't about CC first.
puck fotoss
Forge,zealot,gateway.
Terran CC first against Protoss is a suicide build…
9:01 / 16:53
CC first shouldnt be a staple but why not throw it in from time to time
3. ONE :)
9:01 / 16:53
If Snow is the best Protoss, and Protoss is the strongest race why isnt he winning ASL? I know he chokes and ASL is random sometimes but still.
Protoss is actually the weakest race by a good margin. 48% winrate is about the number people have found from analyzing a wide pool of games. It just seems really strong at lower levels because terran and zerg are a good bit mechanically harder to play and Protoss units are so efficient, so Protoss leans stronger until you get to the pro level. Terran essentially has an infinite skill ceiling whereas someone like Snow is pushing Protoss almost as hard as it can go, and then the inherent weaknesses of Protoss are becoming a lot more obvious. I mean, look at how bad Bisu has done lately in a lot of these recent casts and tournaments, and he's the guy who basically showed that you *could win with Protoss*
On the other hand maybe where players like Snow and Motive have pushed Protoss to shows there's a lot more that could be done to win these games that Protoss are losing. But there's always the issue of running into Zergs like soulkey
Bruh, does Terran ever win against Protoss?
Comments
😮😂😮
Like, even if u r reading it from toilet
Spolier block
zerg wins sorry~ :(
Yeah Command Center first isn't a good idea for Terrans... Terrans thrive on a methodical and systematic push across the map
Whichever one your foe builds will have been unfair and totally ruin the game.
CC first is not nearly as good as Nexus first or HAtchery first. Zerg and Protoss can win early fights but Terran can't. Faster winning fights = faster expansions. CC first is not good. Toss can also just double expand and Terran can't punish it.
Cast starts at 3:30
12 nexus - 50% autowin, 50% lose the nexus, game is fair, play on. 14cc: 50% of the time you lose instantly, 50% of the time you come out even. PvT is truly the most imbalanced matchup in all of starcraft lmao. Watching the SC vs Sc2 games and seeing how they nerfed the crap out of protoss in Sc2 was very amusing.
funny that Terran has had a consistent winning lead over Protoss over most of the game's pro history and still people talk like this. It's only true at levels below pro. There are 0 Protoss bonjwas in the history of Brood War, and 4/5 are Terrans. Go figure.
Snow is one of the very few Protoss who can make it *look* like a winning matchup, but then go watch any of the other Protoss pros and how a few siege tanks and spider mines can *auto target* a huge army out of existence and win the game. It's like listening to melee Fox mains whining about how the best character in the entire game can still lose to other matchups if their opponent is better than them
@@yallimsorry5983 Hilariously Team Liquid SC experts did a huge study about why there's so many Terran Bonjwas, and it's because (like the rest of terran), TvT is a highly technical SKILL-BASED matchup. There were no Protoss bonjwas mainly because PvP is heavily rock paper scissors and bc Z>P. If one guy makes DT, the other guy can be Bisu but if he doesn't have obs he's dead. If I make 4 gateways and you make 3, then my dragoon beat your dragoon. Before Bisu protoss mostly flailed around in PvZ and died. Nice try though. PvT throughout all of BW even with "4 terran Bonjwas" has favored P for over a decade, go look up the stats. I think out of 20 years there were 2 that terran had a winning PvT rate. d.
you bring shame to our race with these balance complaints.
Jaedong is noob