Is it true a debt buyer can never provide proof they own the debt?
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
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It's not necessarily true that they can't prove they own the debt.
In our experience, whether they can or not, they refuse to provide evidence that they own it.
That may be because they can't, or they don't understand how evidence works in court.
We've seen these debt buyers come into court and use affidavits as their evidence.
Judges often don't allow written or sworn statements as evidence.
Maybe they do know how to prove it.
When we deal with debt buyers, we require them to show the purchase agreement between the debt buyer and the original creditor.
If they don't enter the purchase agreement as evidence, then we say their case has no evidence.
Most of the time these debt buyers will say they can't provide the purchase agreement because of confidentiality.
This simply isn't true, since you can usually find those agreements online.
They make this excuse because there's usually a clause in the agreement that essentially says that the debt buyer is buying the debt "As is."
This is a problem for them because the original creditor is saying that they make no representation that the debt information is accurate.
Debt buyers swear that they prove they own the debt all the time, but we haven't seen them do it.
Thanks for watching!
John G. Watts
Watts & Herring, LLC
Representing consumers across Alabama
205-879-2447
www.alabamacon...
www.alabamacon... (to send us a message)
"No representation is made that the quality of the legal services to be performed is greater than the quality of legal services performed by other lawyers." Our free weekly webinar is here -- my.demio.com/r... -- on Thursday we'll be talking about some of the new FDCPA rules. Join us if you can!
"No representation is made that the quality of the legal services to be performed is greater than the quality of legal services performed by other lawyers."
The more you sweat in practice, the less you bleed in battle- First time I've heard that one, and I love it! Great job- wish you were in Florida.
:) Glad you liked it -- hard to know where the quote came from but its very true!
Maybe one day on Florida!
:)
John
@@johngwatts It's a standard military axiom propounded by numerous generals over the centuries, the latest of which may have been Eisenhower or Patton.
This is such helpful information! I came to an agreement with the original card provider, and settled the account. Two years later- I received notice that I was being sued by a debt buyer. I made notes from all your videos. I prefaced my argument to the judge that I was not an attorney, nor did I have the funds to hire an attorney. I mentioned you by name and laid out my case. First, the plaintiff attorney refused my phone calls. 2nd, Affidavit is hearsay. 3rd, They refuse to provide purchase agreement (which has information they don't want the court to see). 4th, Best evidence rule. The judge said that he had heard enough and would rule in writing. He ruled in my favor, citing a Florida ruling concerning full disclosure of purchase agreements.
Just got back from trial, Judge was just fine with taking the affidavit as proof. The Attorney had no witnesses either. They kept saying they could produce a bill of sale. I asked them then why hadn't they. I had to push that affidavit isn't proof of ownership, particularly when it is the debt buyers statement. and so he just rescheduled for another trial.
had court on zoom today. The worst judge ever, I couldn't get a word in (I'm not exaggerating) . The trial lasted 5mins, he literally wouldn't let me speak. The lawyer only had a charge off statement, can you imagine that! he literally couldn't prove they owned or owed the debt but that judge just wouldnt let me ask for proof or anything. What that judge did shouldn't even be allowed
When it comes to defending yourself in a debt collection lawsuit it is preferable to use legal documents to win your case rather than relying on being heard and treated fairly at a trail which is like a toss of a coin
@@audreymay9378 Thanks for this...I agree that judges don't let lay people speak like they do attorneys.
@@cryptosliceoflife3081
Two different debt collectors sued me in Texas and they dismissed their case against me because I decided to fight: I served them with written discovery filed a FDCPA counterclaim against them and drafted legal motions to make them cough up evidence they wanted to hide.
I figured out how to use aspects of their case against me against them.
A persons #1 line of defense when sued for debt is to respond to the complaint by filing a written answer in most jurisdictions.
@@audreymay9378 Thanks so much for this information! Did you file the FDCPA counterclaim and the written discovery in your answer?
@@earthangel6858
I served them with discovery separately then filed a counter claim in my answer by amending it and paying a filing fee.
My understanding is that the debt buyer either can't prove that they own the debt, or if they do prove it, it will cost them more to do so than the case is worth. In the first instance, you win and they lose; in the second instance, you lose, but they also lose.
Well said.... Sometimes they are willing to lose money to send a message. Other times they try and win but still lose.... that's a double loss for them. :)
Thank you, you cleared up some info In 2017 I Got a letter that I owed this debit and ask for Proof, but Never heard from them, Until May 2023 stating my loan reached Maturity in Dec 2021, and they were going to foreclose in 35 days. I ask them to email you proof of this Said Debit- Not heard from them, I had a Title Searcher for liens on my property ( they had non) I never had a loan with them. I had a BK not with them in 2010 that was discharged and charged off by the original creditor
Another timely spot on video, Thanks John
~Glenn
Thanks!!
Again, Thanks John For Your Time👍
Thank You so much for the information. I truly hope you have all the clients you need. My court case is in a few weeks.
Thank you! I hope your court case goes great!
John Watts
Thank you so much for being awesome!
Thank you!! Trying to fight this alone. No attorney’s around who will help. I was told to ask for the purchase agreement, the financial flow. But I had no clue what or why this mattered.
I am stuck. Bc I have to go to mediation but they haven’t provided this information. So I don’t want to agree to any mediation. Ugh
Thanks this helped a lot.
Thank you so much for sharing!!
You are very welcome -- thanks for watching!
John
Hi John, great video and as always a very clear explanation! I'm in Cook county Illinois and I have a mandatory arbitration scheduled. Do these same rules apply to these court ordered arbitrations? Do you think LVNV will show up for the arbitration hearing?
this is really super helpful!
What if the affidavit and lawsuit never mentions the "purchase agreement"? My trial is tomorrow and I've been watching all of your videos but as I go through the documents they sent me, there's nothing that says those words or anything like it. They keep referencing a xlsx document and electronic files. Is that it? Thank you so much for your videos! They've helped calm my anxiety slightly.
I was happy to hear ya say this. They are prolly still using robo signers. So John, i have portfolio recovery associates and lvnv on my all 3. I have a current cfpb and past cfpb complaints as well as at least 2 disputes, fully documented including envelopes and their responses.
My mind is old, not so sharp, but im thinking it's time to sue?
Sounds like you have done some homework on them. Ultimately, you need to get with a FCRA/FDCPA consumer lawyer in your state to see if it is enough to sue on. Good luck! John Watts
Where do you find the details of the purchase agreement
Good info, thanks.
Great analysis. Even in the remotest case when the debt buyer shows the contract, and in the remotest possibility of the balance is being vouched as accurate, there is still an option to subpoena the original bank to ask if they indeed accurately calculated and sold the exact debt in question to those bags. Which representative from the bank will testify to that!? Do you agree.
Part of the challenge is that in most state courts you can't subpoena (at least not easily) the original creditor as they are out of state. And it is the obligation (in my view) of the debt buyer to get this evidence. If they don't have it, that's a problem for them.
Thanks for your good comment!
John Watts
How do you handle the CFPB court orders that now require they have and provide it prior to filing suit?
Can we ask to see to be sent the purchase agreement?
Answer: "Not True." Most times they cannot or will not but they can.
The way most debt collectors or banks get around this is to pull the "not sold, original ownership" crap. Bank of America died this. They don't sell their debt, they sue as owner of the debt. But one of the mistakes they make (is what John so eloquently put, made me laugh) is the affidavit, which yes, judges don't like and don't care for, and usually on that alone a case will or can be thrown out.
:)
Hello John, I live in Texas, was served a lawsuit from Portfolio Recovery for $4000 on a 3 year old credit card debt. I filed my "General Denial" answer in the courts last week and am now waiting for my trial date (and praying they don't have much evidence to present). On the complaint I was served, they state values and dates, but my account number is presented as "****-****-****-1234", with only the last 4 digits of the account. Is this normal? Since they're suing me, wouldn't I at least expect them to provide the full account number that they supposedly own? Could it be a sign that they are possibly bluffing or don't actually have much documentation regarding my account? Can I use their lack of a full account number as a defense in the trial?
Mike, glad you responded to the lawsuit and good luck with it!
It is normal (at least in AL) to NOT put the full account number. Normally some of your statements will be attached and the account number will be blacked out (redacted) except the last 4. This is for your privacy.
At least here it would not be a good defense -- but check with TX lawyers -- might be different there. www.consumeradvocates.org/find-an-attorney
Best wishes!
John
@@johngwatts Thanks for the reply John! I've been binge watching your videos these past couple of weeks and am really grateful for the information you provide! You mentioned that "normally statements will be attached" to the complaint, but mine doesn't have a single supporting document or evidence. Do you think that could possibly be a sign that PRA doesn't have much to go on, or maybe they were just lazy/uninterested in providing any proof at this time?
i have a 6-7 year old debt that i will be in court for mediation with pra , how did yours go , did you ever go to mediation , did you have to owe on alleged debt
@@growingpeppermintif it's that old then I would verify that the statute of limitations isn't expired.
I am in Texas and the judge took the Billis sale as proof that Midland owned the debt. Even though we requested the master Purchase list whatever you wanna call it the judge said that wasn’t necessary they had this bill of sell
Hi, what did the bill of sale look like? Was it a statement of letter from Capital One indicating that Midland now owns the debt? I'm sorry that the judge did not rule in your favor, seems shady and corrupt that they didn't request definitive proof of the master purchase list.
The judge and Midland was in on it together
@@mbrown2243I think most of the judicial system in Texas is corrupt
@@kingme6109 This happens, sometimes the debt buyer pays they judge a percentage of the judgement and regardless of what kind of evidence you have or ho much you argur your case, a dishonest judge will follow his pockets vs state law and evidence. That is what Appeals are for. It is expensive but if you get the judgement reversed, you can make the Plaintiff pay all of the costs.
Hi, thought you would find this interesting... I moved for a production of the Forward Flow Agreement, they initially denied, but after conferring they have stated that they now agree to providing it - but want a confidentiality agreement. Is this a trick? Or a bluff? Seems odd.
How did it go on your court day?
In this case, they will provide something but certain information will be redacted, like, the original creditor is not responsible for the accuracy of the account and that the debt buyer cannot sue them and try to get their money back on an account with errancies. In my opinion, if they cant sue the creditor, then they cant sue me either. This is why they refuse to provide the Purchase Agreement, if they do, they will redact statements in the contract in order to deceive you and the court.
I'm so glad I never admitted to owing any debt.
What about when one credit agency removes a collection, but Trans is sayings it been verified?
What does an “own the Dept” document look like? Is is just bank statements a contract or something else? Can you explain what to look for if they have proof they own the Dept?
Is a Purchase Price Reconciliation / Funding Instruction ( To: Midland(end. No Funding or Credit mgt jargon) then goes on to read: "This FORWARD FLOW ACCOUNTS PURCHASE AGREEMENT" blah blah more jargon the same as the PURCHASE AGREEMENT that is super secret that wasn't introduced into evidence or discovery the same thing?
I wish if you can handle cases in Florida.
The credit card I had, and the debt collector, was owned by the same company.
Do they have first hand personal knowledge of the fact?
Can they prove that the living man is the Ens Legis?
I sent a validation letter, by certified mail over 30 days ago for an alleged $500 debt, and have not received a response. Apparently debt collectors cannot be forced to produce validation that they own the rights to collect on debts.
However if they attempt to try to collect on the debt by continuing to call and write you letters then you have grounds to sue them because continuing to collect on a debt without responding to a validation letter with documents is a FDCPA violation
i find it hard to believe that for a large debt, they will not produce documents
If they have the documentation, they certainly CAN produce it. But it is amazing the number of $30,000 and even $100,000 trials where they don't. They may going forward but we are not seeing it -- very unusual to produce the documents. Even when they produce the purchase agreement, there are more advanced ways using the rules of evidence to give yourself a good chance of being successful.
Best wishes
John
@@johngwattscan you expand a little on what these ways are? Thanks!
Make a video about the opposite no lawyer or whatever makes the arguments for the debt buyers
A collection agent buys uncollected charged off debts from banks. The debt has been discharged. You don't owe the debt collector anything as the charge off stays on your record for 7 years. Paying the collection company is a waste of time. They generally don't sue you. To sue, they have to personally serve you. They're most common tactic is call you to try to collect. They need to make contact with you by speaking to you personally before the collection procedure begins. Don't answer them. Don't call them. They're not going to sue you. You don't need to file bankruptcy. Walk away!
There are about 3000 lawsuits a month in Alabama on charged off debt where a collector sues. So everyone should do their research and see if the collectors in your state will sue etc and then take the appropriate action.
@johngwatts depends on the size of the debt. $3,000 is a typical threshold of the decision to sue amongst plaintiffs. Even if a judgment is rendered, they still have to try to collect on the debt. I advise only to work with the original creditor and not the creditor.
@@johngwattsI'm currently being sued by Midland Credit Management for $6,900 on a charge off from Citi Bank. I filed my answer a week ago with the court. I called MCM today and offered them $2,700 (40%) of the total. The least they said they would take was 70% $4,700. I WAS HOPING to avoid trial. So now I have to file my pre trial statement by Sept 26th and I'm completely lost. Any advice??
@@johngwattshow can I speak with you
@@cowboy67501 Yes, read my post above - and follow John's advice in the videos. Ask for the Purchase Agreement. They will not give it to you - therefore, you should win your chase. Also, you can check out SOLO online for help with filing. (a Bill of Sale is meaningless - must provide Purchase Agreement). You can do this!
It has nothing to do with the debt. red herring. Is their a contract. can you buy someone elses contract without being a third pary interloper.
Yes -- you can under the law. We may not like it but that's the law.
John
@@johngwatts No you cannot without the consent of both parties and that is the law.
I'll leave this as we simply disagree about what the law is. Best wishes...
John
@@johngwatts could you site which law expresses a third party is able to purchase a debt legally?
@@dpgedward5947 Not true, if that was the case, then debt buyers would not be in business. Most credit and loan contracts that you sign specifically say that they have the right to sell or reassign the contract without your consent. That is why is is important to read the fine print, even if it takes an hour to do so. If you sign that contract, then it is part of the agreement and it is lawful, you dont know what you are talking about.
I commend John for being patient with this comment, even with the ridiculousness of it.
Should u still pay collections after having them removed? They usually sell the debt to another agency and they readd them to your credit report? So many people say different things on this. Whats your opinion on this please?
Hard to believe you are asking this question legitimately. 😲 Wow.
Interesting question 🤔🤔🤔.
Amber,
There are different thoughts on this.
If a debt buyer sues you and loses, I would NEVER pay them on the debt they lost in court. Because the judge has said you do not owe them.
Now if you see a debt collector on your credit report, dispute it, and it is deleted, I would be very hesitant to pay. The problem comes from paying one collector and then another claiming to have the debt and saying you still owe the new collector.
Normally when a collector deletes from credit report it is because they have no proof so I would not be wanting to pay.
It gets deleted, then see what happens next.
Hope that helps!
John
@@MissionaryInMexico how else am I supposed to ask this question? If a debt collector is reporting inaccurately also with violations included i feel this is a legitimate question.
@@aredmanful Illegal actions of a debt collector do *not* force you to act on *anything.*
🔥🔥🔥
Life saver 💞 Thank you I dont have it. Thats why it defaulted in the first place- allegedly 💫
I’ve seen others including Dave Ramsey say that judges will often accept past billing statements from creditors as proof they own the debt.
They may accept it, but that is why is argue your case to the judge, it is you against the Plaintiff, you explain to the judge why you feel it is not sufficient evidence. Anybody can reproduce false statements in the format that these debt buyers submit them in. In may case, they put one line on one sheet of paper in an excel format and copied statement information and then went to a second sheet of paper and copied another line of statement information in excel format. There was 5 sheets of paper with each sheet having one small table row from an excel table and they copied info into it. Anybody can make stuff up and put anything they want in there. They can also reproduce a promissory statement and claim it is an original from the creditor. Mine had a contract that said $9500.00 loan was given at a certain percentage rate, (Cant remember what it was) and the promissory note had a $10,000 loan with a completely different percentage rate. Two different documents that said different things.
If you dont have an attorney and are willing to fight this alone, then it is your job to bring your issues up to the judge and defend yourself, if you dont and you just sit there and cannot argue your case, then the judge will accept whatever the Plaintiff gives them and you will lose. Dave Ramsey is right, they will accept EVERYTHING the Plaintiff gives them if you dont argue your case. If the judge refuses to let you talk or hear your arguments, then get ready to file an Appeal and let a higher court hear your argument.
Most local judges are burned out and just dont care so they want these cases over with as soon as possible and if you are stumbling around and cant argue your own case then they will shut you down quick.
Well let me tell you I have most of my bank statements from Bank of America that the junk debt buyer mailed me. they also mailed me their license to collect in Buffalo New York. But I did not receive the bill of sale or the purchase agreement . Told me they didn't need to prove that they bough the debt. That the statements were all proof that they needed to convince a judge. That if I wanted to play lawyer it was going to be very expensive for me since and I quote .(we will bill you our lawyer fee which is $300 and hour . So I advice you to think really hard on your next move end quote
Sounds like a threat to me......can you share what the outcome was? I'm in same boat. Case set to go to trial in a month. Thanks.
@@jerricreamer2144 how did it turn out for you???
Yea that is a Bullying tactic and and I think justifies a countersuit, question is, can you prove they told you that?
If all the lower courts have been declared incompetent by the supreme court. What are BAR members engaging in. If your a U.S. citizen, declaring that you are the ward of a corporation and have no nationality, how can you all say your holding court, when it's a corporate tribunal, adjudicating cases when there is no judge, and by the law of jus sanguinis; by the blood. You are not an american you're what your ancestor was who jumped off the boat from Europe (I presume) and because the Republic was overthrown by Scythian, Vandal, and Goth, colonizers who migrated here under the names of indigenous Europeans. How can you practice or perfect law in a land where by international law you are a guest in someone else's nation no matter when you or your fore fathers decided to visit and stay indefinitely. How is it that you are a litigator of corporate policy; but you call yourself a lawyer?
it's really hard for me to accept that you are an actual attorney with this kind of crap. this sounds more like sovereign citizen b.s. next you'll be claiming that since the bank wasnt present when the purchase was made how can they be sure it was you...lets see an actual court transcript of you winning a case with this stuff. the comments suggest otherwise, but lets see something.
You are rude
And probably a junk debt buyer!
who cares what you believe, if you dont like it, get to stepping.