Virtual Instruments vs Real... does it matter? - RecordingRevolution.com
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- ►► Create radio-worthy songs from your bedroom. Download my FREE Radio Ready Guide and learn my 6 step process → RadioReadyGuide...
With virtual instruments getting better and better, can you use them in the final releases of your songs? Do you even need to record any instruments live anymore?
Where should you draw the line?
In this video, I’m going to give you a list of the instruments that can now be done virtually in a convincing way.
Charlie Puth shows how he made the hit song Attention - the bass is a VST played on a midi keyboard! ( • See Charlie Puth Break... )
Virtual Instruments vs Real... does it matter? - RecordingRevolution.com
• Virtual Instruments vs...
#homestudio #virtualinstruments #vstplugins #ezkeys
![Tee Grizzley - Robbery 8 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/34_vkNV6wrU/mqdefault.jpg)
►► Create radio-worthy songs from your bedroom. Download my FREE Radio Ready Guide and learn my 6 step process → RadioReadyGuide.com
recordingrevolution Big fan! Thanks for all the help the past few years🤙
Are you talking good old radio songs or the pop crap songs of the present?
Totally agree. Guitar is very difficult to "fake"...
I always use xln drums and keys for my productions, cause recording good sounding drums is the most difficult subject in a home studio... ✌️
ample sound will change your mind
I’ve always felt the guitar and bass should be natural and real. The drums? I mean drums are tricky to record, I use Superior Drummer.
I like using ToonTrack’s SuperiorDrummer. However, I feel like guitar and bass should be real and natural. I disagree that people only care about what comes out of the speaker. It depends on the person honestly. I’ve always been curious about what equipment was used to make the song, and how the song got to where it was and all that stuff. Then again, I’m a nerd. Lol.
Buy Shreddage 3, like, right now. It's amazing and paired with Guitar Rig 5, you can perform just about anything (and arguably more). Still requires practice, but it's damn great.
@@gerrardxavier I followed your suggestion, but after listening to some demos online, it's still a very unrealistic sound.
Here's a compromise that's worked for me: I'm not a drummer couldn't afford to record drums live, but I could afford to hire a drummer to do VIRTUAL drums for me. Way cheaper & faster, but because he KNOWS way more about drumming, he wrote way better parts than I could have. Also, studying what he did gave me ideas to improve my own drum writing in the future.
@Zavier Night ^
awesome
Making a virtual instrument sound realistic is all about understanding how the instrument work and its limitations. For example:
- Guitar players can seamlessly switch between chords, picking, fingering, legato and other techniques on a note per note basis. However, the most amount of ringing notes you can have is equal to the amount of strings the instrument has. Also, closed voicing chords are very hard to play.
- Organ players use a lot of chord inversions and revoicing between manuals. As opposed to what most virtual organs will make you believe, organs don't have sustain pedals. Once you lift your fingers the notes stop immediately. Learning how to crawl helps tremendously.
- Most melodic mallet instruments can play either two or four notes at the same time. Four notes is more common on marimba.
- Timpani players can only produce two notes at the same time and can't play very fast passages due to range limitations of the instrument.
- Most ensemble arrangements have the same instruments play in unison. For strings, that unison can only play a 4 note chord, for example.
- There's no single vst preset that can cover all a single instrument can do. It's best to play which instruments will solo, then distribute their part across several presets, especially if you don't have access to a MPE controller.
If it sounds good, it IS good, regardless of what produced the signal. But it’s still wise to avoid the “uncanny valley.”
Unless you're specifically going for that 90's DOS Fantasy RPG stank. Then, by all means!
hmm, uncanny valley in music, never thought of that but it exists fasho
If you play violin or cello you will know immediately whether a string part comes from a vst or real instruments. Same for sax, brass or any instrument. But context matters too. If you are recording a flute concerto you need real instruments especially the flute. If you just have a background orchestra on a pop song then vst's are fine. One thing that virtual instruments have never got right is glissando. When a string section slides from one note to the next all the individual players are slightly out with each other. It is imperfect and imperfections are what make real instruments difficult to truly replicate.
I've found that production goals often shift based on wether you're using real or virtual instruments. With virtual instruments, the goal is often to try to inject life into them and make them sound more human and organic. While with live instruments, the goal becomes to tighten and crisp them up, and make them sound more 'perfect'. It's just two different methods to get to the same result, somewhere in the middle.
Recorded a song with a cello intro. First I programmed it with a top notch library. It sounded fantastic. But then I felt the need for having the real deal and hired a human cello player. What a difference. The human factor is so important. Not only on guitar and vocals.
That's why it is said Human's have emotions and machine's don't. Music without emotions is nothing
I do it all the time. All kinds of instruments, even guitars (and I am a guitarist myself)! And often strings, sometimes dubbed with real players. Hardly anybody notices. The key is to understand the instrument you try to fake, know what's "idiomatic" to the instrument, and using a great virtual instrument.
I knew TMDC was all virtual instruments. As if anyone would ever play a fretless bass :D
@@NeuroCatalyst That's right... even the cowbell!
Exactly...you want to use sax, you gotta think like a sax player...
@@officialWWM Although I must say that even a simple instrument like the Embertone Sensual Sax sounds very real out of the box without knowing anything about the saxophone (yes, I realise that particular VI is almost a gimick but I get great results).
Music Islife I think sax is the hardest to mske sound real.
I love music for the personal performance aspect of a musician and their instrument. It adds something to the song when it's performed opposed to processed. Personal opinion...
What about fiverr?!?
When you're not able to play a real instrument this could be an option for a few bucks (you can also spend a lot more there) that someone else plays your rhythm, guitar or whatever part...
This is my plan for the future
Reminds me of the Seinfeld bass intro, it was done in a keyboard. This is 90’s stuff and a lot of people were fooled, particularly bassists who tried to play the intro on their bass, and failed
"This is 90's stuff"
No kidding... I feel like I should be mad about being fooled all these years, but I can't stop picturing the mullet and pattern button-down shirt the composer must have been sporting while he recorded the theme.
Facts! Getting the real guitar performance using using a virtual instrument can be tricky for real! But is definitely attainable.
As a brass player, I haven’t found a good VST that sounds like the actual instruments; there’s something in the attack of the note and the overtones just are not right. Things like strings and keys completely agree sound really good now.
There are cheesy ROMples all over JLo's "On the 6" album but especially the lame trumpet on "Waiting for tonight". Great illustration of why a few bucks for a real trumpeter would have been a good choice!
I don't think you would be able to replicate the strings arranged on Justin Timberlake Cry Me A River with sample libraries like that. There were four string players on the record as Larry Gold himself was one of the Cello players the same person that write the string arrangement for the song. I can tell the differences between programmed strings and real string fairly easy.
we are there for those who don't really play most instruments but have ideas and by using MIDI w/VST's can move chords around, arrange them in Piano Roll...etc. I miss having the whole band but I also enjoy knowing that I played every instrument & Vocals on a Project. :)
I’ve been a student of yours for 5 years and you’re still pushing out great info and inspiring people thank you 😭😬
I love writing with MIDI and VI's and know how to make it work but imo the energy and musicianship of real playere on real instruments in a room does make a really big and quite noticable difference. You can tell when someone is just slapping down triads and drawing melodys compared to acctually playing, and playing well
Hey Graham,
Great video. I'm in a band and we're looking starting to record our first Album. We have a kick ass drummer however, after recording our first single now he wants all drums for the next couple songs to be done with VSTs. Yes the VSTs he wants to use sound great but i can't wrap my head around how such a great drummer like him wouldn't want to record real drums. To me recording with real instruments especially drums is great cause you get the satisfactions of owning the sound comes out your speakers. Meaning these drums sound huge and they're hitting right in everyway and I got to achieve that sound. I get to own it either as the musician playing in the recording or as the producer/mixing engineer who achieved that sound.
Graham: If you can collaborate with people, why wouldn't you?
Me: Umm...because it's super expensive? the drummer, drum doctor, studio, producer, engineer, editing, mixing...
So, Guitar you Talked about is Both Acoustic and Electric Guitar right ?
Because, Acoustic Guitar has so many aspects of playing to it like
-Lead (With Slides, Taps, Bends, Arpeggio, Hammers, Harmonics)
-Finger Style
-Chords Strumming
-Percussive Style with Guitar
- Important is the Dynamics like Volume Control , Feel ...
All these things will become very difficult almost impossible with Virtual Instruments for Acoustic Guitar.
I think native instruments did a great job with their acoustic and electric guitar vst imo I use them in my mix
Agree Chris. The NI Picked Acoustic is amazing, particularly played with key switches rather than completely programmed in MIDI
@@bobrv8 I totally agree!!
The Key is knowing how the real instrument can or should sound
exactly
💯💯💯💯
An encouraging video for sure. Thanks Graham! Also, speaking as a session guitar player, thanks for preaching the good word about us musicians for hire! Much appreciated.
I think note selection is very important when using virtual instruments that aren't keyboard ones. Like to avoid midi bass lines that would be really awkward to play for an actual bass player.
Guitar is definitely the most difficult. Breath/Air instruments are tough too but they have made some decent ones.
There is such a host of incredible plugins and VSTi’s out there! The first 2 minutes said it all, it’s what comes out of the speakers that matter!
With today's technology, knowledge of musical instrument performance, basic keyboard skills, decent production chops and a lot of patience, you can record everything from a Bluegrass ensemble, complete with Fiddle, Guitar, Dobro, Mandolin and Banjo to a full blown 100 piece orchestra that sounds extremely authentic. Especially to the average listener. The key is knowing the traits and nuances of individual instruments like a Trombone or a Banjo or a Djembe or whatever. The only way to gain that knowledge is to listen to the instruments you want to express, over and over and over again. Learn the subtleties of as many instruments as you can. Listen to everything until it's embedded in your brain.
That's such a nice (and relieving) point to bring up. Loved the quote from Andrew. The latest single I released was entirely performed on piano and voice. I used Keyscape and was blown away. To be honest, the effect it had on the song was much more about me pretending to be in an awesome room with an historical piano sounding amazing, so I performed really better, than actually sounding great... Though it really did. Anyway, I sent the bounce to the Mastering Engineer kinda worried about him noticing. He replied "we gotta talk about the way you put the mics on the piano". Haha. I guess Andrew is right :)
Virtual instruments helped me learn to mix better.
When it comes to virtual instruments they give pulses, playing the actual instrument like guitars gives off vibrations. Pulses and vibrations are not the same. My dad likes playing with sounds. But he can't tolerate a song that is heavily virtual instrumented.
What does that even mean? Your dad really can't hear whether something is performed on a VST, the samples sound pretty much the same if you orchestrate nicely and pay attention to dynamics on top.
What he can't stand isn't VST'd songs, it's songs that don't know how to compose with VSTs properly.
On a spectrum meter the Frequency range of virtual or LIVE instruments will look the same but I see what you're saying.. one has resonance the other doesn't. There is a difference between a vibrating body (anything physical in motion that producers waves) and sampled waves. The harmonics, reverb, phasing.. there are so many subtle differences
As a guitarist myself, I’m against using virtual guitar. It’s so many guitar techniques you can’t do with virtual guitars like tremolo picking, slides pinch harmonics etc. But it did sound cool pretty cool and authentic back in the late 90s on songs like No Scrubs, There You Go and Get Over Yourself.
I only produce music for personal satisfaction and mainly use virtual instruments EXCEPT for guitar. EZKeys, EZ Drummer 2, Ample Bass (lite)... also use AmpliTube 4 and a host of other VSTs to help me produce the music. Although, I'll be more than happy to produce using real instruments (in fact, it'll be a dream come true).
Good advice. Great video. I think one thing to keep in mind when using VSTi's is that they all still need to be "played" or "programmed" PROPERLY to get a good result out of them. Make sure you familiarize yourself with whatever VSTi you are using - make use of Key Velocity levels and Keyswitches for various articulations - these are included for a reason! They can go a long way toward making a part sound more like an "authentic performance" - also, you can't just swap out the MIDI from one VSTi performance for another - with different Keyswitches and with velocity levels triggering different samples in each instrument, you are going to have to TWEAK your MIDI based on the VSTi you have chosen to use. Also, don't forget that LAYERING a couple of different things can really add some randomization and "real feel" into your virtual instruments - for example, using a solo cello from one string library with a cello ensemble from another library will add some variety and a sense of separation, or if you are going to use a virtual guitar plug in, try at least strumming/doubling some parts to add a real feel in places - real performances vary - and the more you can add little variations to your tracks, the more they sound like performances rather than programming. .02
-"Once you get over yourself" nails it :-)
You can get away with virtual instruments. But for my experience ...using real instruments opens up a new world of sonic benefits. Let me explain. Its not the same thing you create a full track full of your ideas than someone else perspective of that track. I had the opportunity of working a recent album where I was doing arrangements , instruments including fake guitars and drums..plus mixing it. At the end of the project I looked back at the first tracks that I did recorded for those songs and when comparing with the delivered tracks including recorded real drums and real guitars ....the difference was night and day. My guitars and drums were not quantized at all...was my feeling and performance. But the feeling and performance that the other musicians gave to the songs was exactly what was needed. Why? Idk...it just sounded more human ...it felt more like a band behind the singer instead of a single musician doing everything. It was just better. The other side of using real instruments is that gives you a little bit of more to work and understand how to manage a real recording of an instrument. You already know your Vst instruments and had practiced a lot on how to make them fit on a mix...but guess what ....thats not good for you. You get used to mix the same way every mix...by the end everything could sounds the same. By having real instruments to mix now you have to explore how to make them sound good in a mix. This leads to train yourself into mixing. At least it does for me. In the other hand...nobody can really tell if you using fake instruments on a song unless they sound really fake. If you doing a guitar track....research how a guitar its been played ...learn how to fake it. in other words dont play a guitar like a piano. So you start to understand that not only the plugins do the magic but your hands also have a big role to play . So ...yes use virtual instruments but if you can get a real musician on your sessions ...do it. You will see the pay off later. Trust me.
Honestly, my program drums sound way better then the real drums recorded in pro studios in my area. Legit. It's kind of rediculous.
I don't mic up drum kits any more. I just use trigger to MIDI clips, even on the cymbals, then I just run it through Superior Drummer or Addictive drums. Sounds better than a shitty old rehearsal room kit every single time, and it's easily changed afterwards.
mine too but it would sound even better if I had a big nice studio and nice drums and a dope drummer and still produced it. people are also bad at micing drums today idk why
@@darkskinwhite for sure
Sometimes I use a lot of virtual instruments in songs, sometimes I use mostly real instruments. It depends entirely on the song. That being said, it seems that most people assume that a virtual instrument sounds “realistic” because they’re not super familiar with exactly what an instrument can do. With strings for example, someone who can play a string instrument in real life will compose and program strings entirely differently if they’re using virtual instrument, because they’re more aware of what the instrument is capable of. I think it’s a good idea to at least listen to real instruments from a bunch of different contexts if you plan to fake them, as you’ll get more ideas and will usually end up with something much more interesting. I recently had to try and fake an accordion for the backing music on one of my videos because it was important thematically, but I don’t own or play the accordion. I could have settled for the fake instrument in my DAW and it would have been convincing enough for non-accordion players, but decided to double it up by layering and blending in real instruments with similar structures and attacks. I wanted to introduce some of that human element which I think is really important for an instrument like the accordion, and I think the result was worth it. It doesn’t sound exactly like an accordion if you know what to listen for, but it’s close enough.
virtual orchestras, as smooth as they are, have become grating to my ears, esp. doing the "epic" thingy.
As a multi instrumentalist who has worked playing live guitar, piano , keys, and vocals but basically I started with drums and always do real live drums. The few ‘errors’ or feel makes the track. Good for you for saying that a real drummer is better.
As long as you're not claiming to have played the instrument then I see no reason to not include them in a song or on an album. To me composition is still what music is all about, and even with virtual instruments you still need to compose with them and pick which notes do what. If you plan to play the songs live just make sure you actually can play them live. Otherwise there's no problem. I have a drummer who just sequences his drum lines for album recording, but he can play it all live. It's faster, cheaper, less cumbersome, and if he doesn't like a snare sound or pattern he can change it. I don't know why people call it "cheating" becasue there are no rules in music. I call it convenience.
'but for the lead vocal...just get a human being...' :) Great video, Graham!
If someone out there needs anything musically...cello player, guitar player, or anything you might need for your song, you can go to Soundbetter.com and find what you need. That's where I go. Great people there.
solo strings (violin, cello, ie) don't sound great either. they sound okay isolated for short periods, but trying to make an instrumental piece with them sounds terrible. maybe it's my DAW
Hey Graham, love how you always challenge us and encourage us. I want to pay you back by challenging and encouraging you to take piano lessons. You mentioned in this video that playing piano is one of your weaknesses. I know you could overcome that weakness by the end of this year. You can do it.
One situation where it really matters is if you make recordings for bands. To make the recording process a memorable and emotional fulfilling event. I’m taking a band to a cathedral this weekend to record a real organ for an intro and they are stoked about it. Will the audience of the finished record care? Probably not.
The end result is what is important. I play every stringed instrument I can get my hands on, and those are what my songs are based on. As a songwriter and arranger, if I hire a keyboardist or a drummer what am I going to do? I'm going to hand them a chart, tell them the style I'm going for, and let them play.
I have to wait for them to get there. I have to wait for them to set up. I have to hope drugs/alcohol aren't a problem. I have to chance whether they can actually play the part, or understand what I'm trying to communicate to them. I have to chance that if I don't like the part they play, they won't be angry if I don't wind up using it.
If I can get a more consistent result by handing that same chart to a virtual instrumentalist, I don't feel bad at all.
I have BIAS FX 2, it's the holy grail of VST Amps!!!
Dito.
I can't agree more
lol no, even free vst's sound better than bias (look up Vadim Taranov amps or the lepou ones)
@@-Pyf- i'll defintely look those up broski!
@Eric Draven yeah man, when i use it i create my own chains, cause most people use the presets, which is dumb really. I use chains in the way i would use amp set ups, i got this because its so portable haha, cause i dont have a car as yet so i cant be walking around with cabs and stuff
I tend to split the difference. After recording for years at home, I opt to actually play guitar and bass but use Amplitube. For drums, I play them live on a Roland V-Pro kit triggering Superior Drummer. As long as you're not using default Superior Drummer kits it can be hard to distinguish it from the real thing. I played a track for a friend who's a good engineer that runs their own studio. The track with the default kit they immediately called out as being Superior Drummer. I played a different track with a different kit and better mixing and dynamics. They swore it was a real kit. I don't play keys, so for piano or other synth-type parts I sequence them in FL Studio and export them.
It's all about knowing the strengths and shortcomings of your tools and meeting somewhere in the middle.
It doesn't matter whether the instruments are real or not, the song is what's important and how it was made. 95% of the listening audience will never know and never care whether the instruments are real or not. The only people that care are the old school musicians and engineers that don't believe in using virtual instruments.
I have to admit that I get bummed out listening to a lot of tv/radio/movie commercials knowing they likely used virtual instruments....mostly when I hear a ‘choir vocal’ & orchestral type sounds...oh well but at least I know it doesn’t require a ton of set up to pull that off if I wanna do it!
I totally agree, especially about the guitars, although Guy Bacos does an amazing job with VSL for concert guitar. It does help if you understand how to use key switches, modulation, and expression controls.
I completely agree with this video, brass and guitar are the hardest to emulate, I would also add pretty much any instrument like bass,cello,etc if its your key element and you want to do something crazy like the way Victor Wooten, Les Claypool or Yoyoma do.
If you can play by heart, and it works well, then it doesn't matter.
origin of instruments was also fake. it had mimicked nature.
and sometimes we need the fake things if we try to express specific musical intention.
Thanks for the video. 2 things I think might need to be mentioned is that the tools we use to make music always are governed by the end goal. In other words, some creatives make music for their own enjoyment and others have to make music for other clients and need to be able to compete with "real" instruments without having to invest in a ton of money to make it happen. For example, I tend to make sound alike cover songs and I can do a pretty convincing job with vst. The other thing is that real musicians often times won't sound as good as the vst because they don't play as well or have the equipment to match the samples of vst. If you want to hire professionals it gets pretty expensive to get the results you want. I tend to use the vst because the process is much easier and faster to get a great result.
As a guitar player, I recommend prominy as a brand for guitar vsts. In a blind test I can’t tell the difference between real and “fake” with those. I like to use them when I’m on the go!
I totally agree with you, Graham.
In my experience, guitars are most likely the hardest instruments to sample in a vst.
I’m primarily a keyboard player, and using guitar plugins for me is only worth if I want to show a real guitarist what kind of sound/style I would like him to play.
Unlike a piano, guitars don’t have a “perfect” tuning, in the sense that the same note played on a different position of the fretboard or even the intensity given with the “right” hand will slightly change the fine tune of that note (for whatever percentage that might be).
Any decent vst piano will change the volume and tone of each note based on the velocity (strength on the real piano keys), but they’re both played on the same way (assuming that you already play the real instrument and are able to compensate for that change in weight and feel).
Even drums can be decently “faked” with a bit of feeling, specially if it isn’t over quantized and/or the main focus of the song.
Guitars have just too many different ways of hitting the same note, and that’s why I still haven’t heard any convincing vst.
IMHO, they all sound fake after 3 ou 4 notes…
I use MT Powerdrummer and a Roland Juno DS for bass, strings, brass, synth parts etc. I use a Headrush for guitar sounds and even use a harmony generator for backing vocals. Mixed properly, no one can tell the difference...
I play a multitude of instruments and I do recording at home and I purchased EZBass, EZ Drummer and EZKeys and the quality is unreal. Of course it still needs to be tweaked and polished.
I think the key is understanding how an instrument works and how it's played to get away with faking it. This is why guitars are so hard to fake. It doesn't matter if the sample is great if your playing out of the instruments range or simply playing it "wrong". Those are the things that reveal that it is not real. And I guess this matters less in some genres than others.
It's not about who works the hardest, it's about who reaches the listener. If you aren't able to play an instrument and can't or don't want to dedicate a great deal of time to said instrument, then either use a virtual instrument or ask a musician who does play. Sometimes physical location can be an obstacle as not all areas have an abundance of musicians to call upon, at least this is true for me. If you have issues finding other artists to collaborate with then consider joining me here- www.kompoz.com/music/artist/WillaWay - It's a great place to find others who share the same passion for music and are more than willing to collaborate on incredible music together!
As a guitar-player myself I state, that you can get away with VST-guitars, but you have to invest a lot of time into programming, editing hours and hours in the piano-roll ... and second you must have a deep knowledge about guitar and how it is played.
Hi! What E. Guitar VST would you recommend?
I'm trying to go for versatile clean tone (Chill music etc.) and run them through bunch of FX. Been eyeeing for impact soundwork, OTS, amplesound but theyre all quite expensive and I dont have deep knowledge about guitar so not sure what choose
I doubt you could get away with trying to accurately emulate the guitar riff of *Craig David - 7 Days.* emulating and acoustic guitar through midi sequencing is nearly impossible without sounding fake. There's alot of elements, articulation on how a guitar is played.
@@GerryMoningkey For clean electric guitar I would use Shreddage 3 Stratus, for acoustic I use Orange tree Evolution Songwriter
@@eman0828 I have listened to 7 Days and I think it would be possible, would be harder to emulate let's say a solo-piece for classical guitar
@@DirkRadloff Thanks!
Thankyou, I’m literally starting from scratch so I don’t know about any of this so it’s going to be a learning curve for me, hopefully an easy one with focus.
I think virtual instruments have gotten to such a high a standard that they sound convincing in any application. I agree with the points on guitar and vocals though! Here’s a track I worked on recently that is all vst except for vocals, guitar and bass. ruclips.net/video/Dav2luHYQ5A/видео.html I actually found a lot of Graham’s previous videos very helpful when mixing this, so thanks for putting out awesome tutorials 🙏
I recently used Spitfire BBC-SO on a recording. It's pricey, but IMO it is the best virtual symphony orchestra out there. I also have the Kirk Hunter Virtuoso collection, can't recommend it. As Graham noted, brass can be troublesome. Something squirrely happens with the trumpet high notes. I can't explain exactly, but the high treble just get's messed up. Also, I've yet to find a decent virtual sax. There's just such a range of expression and depth of nuance on the sax which no virtual instrument that I am aware of comes close to mimicking.
This was the slap in the face I needed. I've been postponing making music for a very long time cuz of this very topic. I think it's time for me to go vst hunting.
Guitar has become more easy to fake, but to get it right is very time consuming with tweaking all the parameters (sustain, pitch bend, slides, velocity etc.) In 2016 I used a combination of VIR2's Electri6ity, VIR acou6tics, Shreddage 2 and Iron and Sparkle from Virtual Guitarist. Iron and Sparkle were very liberating in creating parts and original song/chord ideas because on a real guitar you tend to grab your usual chords and play your usual rhythms. I used these virtual guitars for demo purposes but I made them as real as possible, however it was (and I guess still is) my intention to ultimaletly replace them with real guitar parts. So in my experience it is very handy to get a basic idea down and later ask a guitarist to play that part for real. The new Shreddage 3 has even more options for tweaking and doubling parts (up to 4 times with minor variations making it very lifelike.)
I find working with a drummer using a midi kit gives me the flexibility to edit and also use software drums such as MODO. He just sends me the midi file.
Hi Graham we meet again happy new year God bless you !
Virtual Guitars: I agree, it ain`t easy. But it`s possible! I got Ample Sound`s Stratocaster and in combination with real good Amp-Simulations, you can create very convincing results. But you need some skills on the keyboard and you need to know the voicing and chords on a real guitar. It`s not perfect but they getting closer and closer nowadays.
I love the quote. I believe music is just the notes and how you come to your sound doesn't matter... real or not.
Now, for a "demo", anything goes. If you're going for a "commercial" release than yes real guitars might be the way to go. Me being a 1 man project/producer/instrumentalist I certainly don't have the time or space for a lot of "extra", so a midi controller and an enormus VST library just makes more sense. Especially when you consider the small audience of my style of metal, my recording space and my schedule and so on.
Guitar... I think it also depends on the genera you are playing. For metal and it's sub-generas I think you can use the Odin II and the Loki Bass pretty well. They do sound a bit sterile and perfect, but man they do sound really good.
lol that spray on tan
What I don’t like is that pro tools doesn’t work with vst
I think VST instruments are great... If you don't care. I mean, they limiting you so hard. You have to use their mics, placements, etc, and can do nothing about it.
Pianos, for example. They all about few condensors, high sound, but there is almost no body in all of them. And you have no ability to try ribbons, or to try different placements to get the sound you want.
Or 57's. Lots of VSTIs are using that mic, since it's an industry standard. But I really don't like it's sound, but again, there is nothing I can do about it.
Another drawback of an virtual instrument for me is that they are too hard. You can make them sound good, but you have to write it, correct it... I wanna put a drummer to a place he belongs to, click on circular button and get great drum performenc for every band I work with, even if the sound won't be perfect. Music is not about perfection, right?
But, if you're musician, who have no drummer and want's to play with the drummer or something like that - there is nothing bad in virtins, go for it! I'm talking only fron tonmeister's view, not a home musician's
The jazz guitars from Omnisphere is actually quite good imo, as long as you use pitch bends and enable legato. I made a convincing guitar track remaking a soul song.
wanne be honest here - agreeing on the guitar side of things - but then you can't put off the value of a real-world bass. Bass is often even more key to a great song imo
couragios I’m right there with you man.
The reason that you can’t fake guitar without some alien level technology is because a lot of the sonic quality of the instrument comes from the fact that chords are played using different timbre strings and the way the strings are affected by whatever you’re playing them with.
Whereas bass players rarely ever play chords and a big part of good bass playing involves muting strings so that their sounds don’t muddy each other up - hence why 90% of people (the actual audience of music) can’t tell if a bass line is VST or live but sampled guitars always sounds off.
@@wisenatorez2269 I'm well aware mate, though i agree only partially - as a lot more of the instrument's role is found in building&supporting the actual rythm as well as 'hovering' in between rythmic & harmonic elemenst, thus glueing the mix and the general performance and giving it a lot more quality - simply through very controlled & artistic playing.
In other words - a mix with VST-Bass does work - but you simply can't give it the same 'freshness' and lively feeling as well as an organic tone.
I'm slightly biased, i admit, but as i play both instruments in the studio usually it comes out like so - if a song features a solid rythm-party it will feel right even with less solid performances by the solo/harmony instruments. If you switch the roles, it won't quite come out as good.
Also, about woodwinds, in my experience it's pretty much the same as brass.
It's ok when it's for accompaniment, but for lead parts it's not really super good.
There are some VSTs that deals with techniques and stuff, but it's not so versatile.
It's still cool and ok to use for an actual song, but it's way way better to have an actual human play the instrument.
Agree, they sound really wooden. LOL that's not even a pun
@@cheery-hex That's it. ^^
Namae Try UVI IRCAM solo, it isn't cheap, though.
YOU HAVE BEEN A PART OF MY MIND SINCE 2015 I di it even having a stroke in 2016 nad just now moved and got my studio you helped me build. Quality equipment and starting back with guitar after having to relearn and talk again. Hard Road Stuff. Just working it. Thanking you Graham Cochrane for all your hard work. Matt Cochran.
As a trumpeter in the Nashville music scene who continues to hear midi horns in pop music, I can’t stress enough that you need to hire the real thing if you want that sound. By using midi, or sample libraries, you’re not only costing great session musicians work, but also sending a message, intentional or not, that you don’t respect other musicians because you can “do it yourself”. It’s not the right sound, and it’s not a good look either. If you want horn players, please just hire them. Just my $0.02
Little addition: Like most other instruments, you can make wind and brass VSTs sound fairly realistic, IF you work meticulously on the automation and IF you understand the individual instruments and their physical properties. (Stuff like the different types of reed, overblowing, breath pressure resistance, the necessity to breath, the relative ease or difficulty of playing certain notes/melodies.)
5:20 i play guitar myself on an advanced level i´d say... lately i´m using Ample VSTs and they´re great for many things...
You've been reading my mail. Damn near everything you've said are my sentiments exactly. Fans are not concernd what you've used. It's the song. It's starts with the song (Quincy Jones ). A guitar with only one string is great If the SONG is great
I use them all the time and I agree , what matters is what comes out of the speakers .
My Old School style Christmas Album, which will be out this year is full of VIs. It’s amazing how good VIs sound if you have the right ones.
Darn right. All that matters is the music and having fun.
Excellent and reasonable commentary on a very relevant subject. Thank you.
I consider myself an electronic artist, but I'd use samples & loops of real instruments. Eventually, I couldn't find the right rhythm guitar loops so I looked into sample packs, but the decent ones were costing upwards of £100! I could buy a cheap electric guitar for less and make my own loops and samples. So I did and now my studio has a rack with 3 electrics, 1 acoustic & a bass. Happy days...
0:55 I like your sense of humor.
You insulted me by insulting yourself 😂
Editing MIDI takes too long (particularly to get a realistic performance) - I've finally resorted to piano lessons to fix that.
@@iqi616 How is it going for you then? and how old are you?
I'm thinking it's like too late to learn a new instrument if we're not kids or teens anymore.
Drums is an exception though.
@@melodica5407 I'm 57; bass and sax player. I have found a teacher who is open to me setting my own direction. The pieces are classical but I'm going for ones that are fun to play to make practice enjoyable. I'm also doing lots of work on scales, chords, and arpeggios - anything to help open-up my playing so I can follow my ear. I am also trying to learn like a kid and enjoy the process without measuring myself against anything other than where I was at a few months before.
I really regret how relying on MIDI editing and audio editing has negatively impacted my musicianship. I now make myself learn parts properly and punch-ins are the only permissible flub-fix.
@@iqi616 Damn that's like some inspiring shit right there sir, because i'm not even half your age.
I guess it's time to get a piano lesson because it's never too late.
@@melodica5407 I didn't start sax lessons until I was nearly 30. Focus on enjoying the lessons and the practice. With a supportive teacher, lessons help stop life getting in the way of good intentions.
good topic. real instruments will always win. but it all depends what kind of music your doing and the audience. if your audience is more sensitive to virtual vs real sounds then you would want to try to get the more realistic sounds
Great points! We use virtual instruments all the time. Love the drums and pianos found in the komplete suits. Alicia’s keys, Abbey road drummer. Great stuff!
Part of needing a real guitar (electric) is dubbing it at least 4 times (or 2 rhythm 2 lead for songs with separate parts) and panning them hard right and left, there are little differences in each of those 4 tracks making them just a bit out of sync with each other in the tiniest changes of rhythm, the tiniest changes of pitch or how much vibrato is on a note that makes it sound like a normal rock/metal guitar section. VSTs that play the notes the same every time lose those variations, and even if you try to mess with the midi note placement, it still ends up sounding very fake.
Or you could record the same guitar track with two different mics, one left and one right, or whatever.
Thanks Graham. Have you thought of adding some of your own background music during your chats? Just a thought!
If I could record all of my music with live instruments, I would. Virtual guitars still sound really bad, and virtual bass sounds a little better but you can still easily tell that it's fake. I use Steven Slate drums for my music and I just have a hard time getting it to sound like a legit live recording. Even though it is real drum samples and I'm pretty good at programming them after about a decade of doing it, it still just doesn't sound right.
TheRealMikeShea Like my dad recorded a track and when I heard the bass I was just like nah that’s fake AF. Lol.
@@420scene I'm not 100% positive, but the bass on the last couple albums by Within the Ruins sounds super fake. Even some of the guitar parts sound fake. It's all edited to hell and would love to hear the songs without all the editing.
TheRealMikeShea Is have to give it a listen. But I’m okay with something like SuperiorDrummer which is what I love using for the last decade but you can’t beat legit guitars and basses in the track.
There is a reason why Record Producer's still hire session players and string sections while some Producer's are Arrangers and musicians themselfs. Sampled libraries and midi sequencing does has its limitations as you can only do so much to the point it sounds unnatural and fake. Guitars, Strings and bass were never ment to be emulated through keyboards. They are some of the hardest Instuments to even accurately emulate through midi sequencing because of how the instrument is played and all the articulations and elements such as plucking, strumming, sliding notes that you simply can't do with a keyboard. Tom aka *JunkieXL* may use some of the best string libraries, but as a Producer he acutally still hires a conductor and string section for his arrangements and acts as the classic record producer like *Quincy Jones* that oversees and directs the recording process. One of the recent songs Timbaland has worked on a couple years back also has live strings on it. The strings for *Cry Me A River* and *What Goes Around Comes Around* were arranged by *Larry Gold.* Veteran Record Producer *Ron Fair* is also an accomplished Arranger. He produced and arranged the strings for The Black Eyed Peas - Where Is The Love ft Justin Timberlake and Mary J. Blige Be Without You.
>Guitars, Strings and bass were never ment to be emulated through keyboards
All of those get you 99% of the way if you spend enough time on your track. Check out shreddage for Guitar to name just one example, it's really good.
@@minhuang8848 I'm talking about acoustic guitars such as Steel, Nylon etc. Also nothing can beat a real string Ochestra or come to the realism of legendary String Arranger Larry Gold. He's a big name in Hip Hop, Pop, Soul, R&B.
Great insightful video!... How about things like EWQL SC?
real instruments are the best in my opinion, because they bring a lot of human touch to the music. however virtual instruments are great for making music, if you simply don't have the option, the budget or the time for getting a real performance for every song.
You're right about guitar. Even if somebody made the perfect VSTi with all the subtleties of guitar, it would be so complicated to program, it wouldn't be worth it. Sort of like a vocal VSTi.
With guitar and bass.. the bends, slides, difference in velocity and tone playing different notes make it either impossible or ineffective to have a VST. You can't control tone and attack of a note on a Grand Piano like you can a guitar, Grand's are pretty straight forward hence why they are the most widely available VST's that sound good.
@@hipoweredmedia3724 true, I use Pianoteq and I'm blown away at the realism of sound and subtle string resonance
Playing a real instrument is something special. You're connected to it, heart and soul. Today, its lost in America.
The answer is really, the more prominent an instrument is in the mix, the less you want it to be a VST. Unless you are in a genre that is just owning THAT vst sound. Any sound can be musical. But, generally, if you want an instrument to be noticed in the mix, make it a real human musician.
Side note: engineers, please stop over producing real instruments till they sound like midi anyway :)
The sounds on my Korg M50 are so vast and sound great so I mainly use that. I also play an e-drum kit decently enough which gives the drums a more natural feel than playing them on keys. Emulating guitar with vst's seems to be the toughest, but I'm just getting back into home recording so I haven't tried alot of virtual guitars. Maybe guitar lessons for a 62 old retiree?
For horns (both brass and woodwinds), I agree that they're hard to fake when they're not in the background. But I have heard some great electronic and hiphop that take advantage of that "fake horn" sound and utilize it effectively. "Thunder Bay" and "Scud Books" by Hudson Mohawke come to mind.
One way I've used fake horns is dubbing them with a real horn player (for example, keeping the real player on the melody and fake horns on the harmonies, octaves, etc). If you don't mind the plug, here's a mix I did for a friend that plays sax. I had all these ideas for harmonies that she didn't understand/ feel like recording, so I put down all the midi sax parts at a low mix level and kept her real takes prominent in the mix. In the end, she liked the result. soundcloud.com/soulfield4/shay-on-sax-love-musiq