There’s even a king, a loyal right hand guy, and a witch trio that interacts like Stannis, the bald guy, and the red witch. The similarities between MST and ASOIAF are almost endless.
Martin's work isn't about absolute originality. Little of it, is original, entirely, except for its presentation. It is derived from almost the whole fantasy genre. It's just his presentation, and especially his immersive world and style which make him so successful. Look at his early work, such as with House of the Worm: Obviously Dune, and also Time Machine by Wells come to mind. --- But he gives it a compelling form, which also has much characteristic darkness. Martin reflects the darkness of life.
I just picked up the Dragonbone chair recently. I'm 232 pages in. Its def underrated on booktube. I only heard about it because it inspired Martin. I'm loving it. I'm so happy you mentioned the gorgeous prose. Its spellbinding. So many authors now have boring prose, but his takes you into his story. It's like you forget you're reading.
I think one of your first statements was correct. Tad Williams is a little known by book tubers, but that’s because most of them are chasing the new great thing that was published in 2023, as opposed to sampling some older books that are the foundation of the genre, and may have many of the great elements that Readers of only current fantasy would massively enjoy. In my age group of fantasy readers, Williams is very much known
Agreed. Modern readers often don't care for the inspirations of modern authors. I initially liked these but the pacing after 1500 pages grew cumbersome and I took a year between GAT1 and 2 to build up momentum to slog through the rest.
Couldn’t agree more, i read this series a couple of decades ago, I have stacks of fantasy books these RUclipsrs don’t even know exists. There is some out there that do classic, eg outlaw bookseller. I am always amazed by people who put themselves as an "authority" and yet seem to have such limited scope.
This. And I get so bored of Booktube hailing every new release as ONE OF THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME and most of said books are everything readers dismiss classic authors of being: generic
Tad Williams needs more recognition from modern-day fantasy readers. It's criminal how underrated he is. His sequel series (The Last King of Ostern Ard) is even better imo.
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is my absolute favourite series of all time :) It's phenomenal and I truly don't understand why it's not more popular among the younger readers, though, I suppose it's partly due to it being an older series and not marketed currently.
Todd here. Nice video! Tad Williams is a Legend! I read the first to chapters of The Dragonbone Chair, you are right, it is a slow read, but I want to read the whole series to seee if I like it.
Wow! Thank you so much for reminding me of this Author. I read some of his work back in the 90's and loved it but I forgot about him over the years... I must look out for him again!
Im on the last book and MST is becoming one of my favourite series. Thinking about starting a Shadowmarch series after this. From what i've seen its also pretty unknown work of Williams
Williams is probably my favorite fantasy author. His pacing never bothered me, because, as you say, everything he writes draws you in. His Otherland series would be another for you to try.
Here in Germany he's always been kind of a big name in the genre whom you could basically find in any library with a fantasy shelf. And you don't compare him to other authors you compare other authors to Williams. As someone else said, his Otherland series is mindblowing in a way fantasy rarely is. So I just say it like it is: If you like to read high-quality fantasy that borders on actual literature, you have to pick up his books. There's just no excuse not to.
Tad Williams helped me bridge the gap from young adult reader to the reader I am today 35 years later. I remember thinking, wow, This series is around 3500 pages! I went on to read his Otherland series which was also great. Tad deserves much more recognition than he currently gets.
Great writing, character work, world, story. Nobody does melancholy so well after Tolkien. Tad Williams, a favourite fantasy writer. The Osten Ard saga is in my top 5 series. Fantastic.
Tad Williams is an awesome guy - interviewed him once and he was intelligent, thoughtful and just an all around great bloke. And his books do feel forgotten. But worse than that - Imagine being Michael Moorcock and being unknown nowadays despite being the foundation for so much.
Tad Williams unknown? Maybe to RUclips but not to previous generations of fantasy readers. He is a master of authentically incorporating mythology. There is the essence of deep sadness intertwined in his prose that makes his work haunting.
Tad Williams is undeniably one of the best, and I've never quite understood the critiques about his pacing. Whether it's slow or fast, what truly matters is how captivating it is, and Tad Williams never disappoints in that regard. I don't think he's that underappreciated, though (Brian Leee Durfee mentions him at least twice in every video 😁). Although the Osten Ard Saga usually gets more attention, the first series I read by Williams was 'Shadowmarch,' and it presented a captivating and less clichéd world compared to Osten Ard. However, when it comes to characters and the overall story, 'Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn' trilogy stands out as his masterpiece.
I love the series but the first 200 pages is quite possibly the slowest start to a series I've ever read. I seriously considered giving it a DNF and if it wasn't for the fact that so many authors I loved said it had a profound impact on them I would have. Once you get past that intro though I thought it was non stop adventure and entertainment.
@@NerdBookReview But you get so sucked into that world though! And then, when it opens up, because it's been so small for so long, it really feels like it's you who goes on an adventure. It's been a few years since I've read it, so maybe I've forgotten some bad things, but I was never close to giving up. I wish I had infinite time so I could reread it.
Totally agree with your assessment on The Dragonbone Chair. I absolutely love the whole MS&T series for all the reasons you mentioned. Tad Williams deserves so much more recognition!!
As others have said, he's hardly unknown or forgotten, except perhaps with those who won't look at slightly older fantasy books and parts of booktube. He has inspired a lot of Gen X authors, including me, and he remains one of the best living writers of fantasy, along with Robin Hobb. He IS one of the all time greats.
I think he's only "relatively unknown" by the youngest Millenials/Gen Z set. We Gen-X fantasy fans are familiar with his work. Honestly, if you're an older reader and you *haven't* heard of/read "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" or any of Tad William's other books, I'm gonna question if you are a serious fan of epic fantasy. Next you're going to tell me no one's heard of David & Leigh Eddings... :D
I haven't gotten to Tad Williams yet, but do have The Dragonbone Chair on my shelf. I suspect because of my love for Hobb he'll be an author for me! Also, if you want to check out a really great video about Tad Williams, Bridger from The Library Ladder has an excellent one worth checking out.
Josh, put Dragonbone Chair on your next poll for viewers to choose next month and I bet you get 90%. I cringed when you spent 8 hours of your life on that Buffy audiobook when you could have been spending that time with Simon & Binabek!😀
Yes, if audible credits weren't so expensive I would've bailed sooner! I suspect Memory, Sorrow and Thorn may be slated for 2025 at this point. Too many book series on the docket!
Great review! Looks like this book is almost as old as me… It would be interesting sometime to hear your thoughts on how classic fantasy has changed over the decades, what you think has improved or declined, that kind of thing.
One of my favourite fantasy series of all time which has been sadly neglected by Book Tube. I might get a lot of flak for saying this but Williams makes a lot of the “popular” fantasy authors of the day seem like children. He adds depth and gravitas to his books - making them seem mythic, and I loved that feeling as I chugged through these books. I really urge you to finish this series and get started with the sequel - The Last King of Osten Ard which is arguable even better than this trilogy. And a special mention to “ The Heart of What was Lost “ this is a novella I loved and still think of fondly to this day - you have a lot of excellent fantasy reading ahead of you. Enjoy !
I admit I haven't read anything by Williams yet despite having most of his books on my shelves. I actually don't mind slow-burn stories either. He's definitely on my 2024 list though. Great video Johan!
After you've had some time to reflect on the epic immensity of "Memory Sorrow and Thorn," you have to read "The Last King of Osten Ard." All the same characters, but it is set about twenty or thirty years later. Osten Ard is a world I love as much as Middle Earth.
Hello, I saw you have your books covered in some foil. I would like to protect my book cover, so I wanted to ask - what do you buy and how to use it so it looks so good? If there is some video you leatned that from or so
Totally agree: I read this masterpiece 30 years ago, and I loved it very much: I wonder why no one has ever considered it for cinema or (better) tv (HBO, please listen)...
Great review, such an amazing book, with writing that polished I don’t care about pacing. I found the same - totally immersed in the book and isn’t that what sets apart ‘good’ from ‘fantastic’ ?
I mean, if we’re talking about super influential but widely forgotten, Roger Zelazny’s books are largely out of print. Or there’s John M. Ford, who is only recently coming back into print but no one seems to be talking about him. The fact that they’re both dead doesn’t do them many favors.
Definitely not forgotten by me. Its been my favourite series since 2004, when I was 13 and came across it second hand. I am so happy to see it get more attention these days! Sanderson doesn't come close to me.
Pre Wikipedia: A long list of authors have influenced and inspired Williams's work: Ray Bradbury, Theodore Sturgeon, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Roger Zelazny, Harlan Ellison, Kurt Vonnegut, Ursula K. Le Guin, Hunter S. Thompson, Thomas Pynchon, J. D. Salinger, William Butler Yeats, Wallace Stevens, Barbara Tuchman, Philip K. Dick, Ruth Rendell, James Tiptree Jr. (Alice Sheldon), Jane Austen, T. S. Eliot, Jorge Luis Borges, Patrick O'Brian, Roald Dahl, Dr. Seuss (Theodor Geisel), A. A. Milne, J. J. Norwich, Stephen Jay Gould, John Updike, Thomas Berger, Raymond Chandler, William Shakespeare, and James Thurber. Williams has also had an influence on other authors in his genre. His Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series was one of the works that inspired George R. R. Martin to write A Song of Ice and Fire. "I read Tad and was impressed by him, but the imitators that followed-well, fantasy got a bad rep for being very formulaic and ritual. And I read The Dragonbone Chair and said, 'My god, they can do something with this form,' and it's Tad doing it. It's one of my favorite fantasy series." Martin incorporated a nod to Williams in A Game of Thrones with "House Willum": The only members of the house mentioned are Lord Willum and his two sons, Josua and Elyas, a reference to the royal brothers in The Dragonbone Chair. In "Tad Williams: The American Tolkien?" Ash Silverlock observes that "echoes of Williams's work" can be seen in the works of Robin Hobb, Terry Goodkind and Robert Jordan. Blake Charlton, Christopher Paolini, and Patrick Rothfuss have also indicated they've been inspired by Williams. ashsilverlock.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/tad-williams-the-american-tolkien/
Didn't realize his work was so tied into Martin's. I hear his name come up a lot in terms of great/underrated stuff on r/Fantasy... have managed to stumble across a couple of later books in his series, but not the starting points.
As a kid, I would’ve been so happy to read these three thick books. But alas, I read them in Finnish, which meant always waiting for months for the next slice to be translated and published. 12 books in total.
All the references and notes I have made so far in “The Dragonbone Chair”: Prester John: Mythical Medieval Christian King in the “East” (Asia/Africa), many the Portuguese Expeditions to India and East Africa sought to find him and his kingdom as a potential trade partner and ally against the Ottoman Turks, leading to the Christian Portuguese-Ethiopian Alliance against the Muslim alliance of the Ottoman Empire and the Adal Sultanate in the Ethiopian-Adal War from 1529 to 1543 Erkynland: Anglo Saxon England Hernystir: Celts Rimmersmen: Vikings Nabban: Italy Beornoth: Ætheling mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle Colmund: Ceolmund, 8th Century Bishop mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle Eahlstan: 9th Century Bishop mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle Eglaf: 11th Century Swedish Nobleman mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle (Elian, brother of Ulf Jarl) Ethelferth: Royal herdsman mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle Freawaru: Daughter of King Hrodgar in “Beowulf” Haestan: Hastein/Hastingus/Hæsting, Viking (Danish) Chieftain mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, raided France & the Mediterranean with Bjorn Ironside, defeated in England by King Alfred Hephzibah: Hebrew “my delight (is) in her”, 1) Queen of Judah, wife of King Hezekiah 2) In Jewish Medieval Apocalyptic Literature the Warrior Wife of Nathan, son of King David and Bathsheba, slayer of multiple enemy kings and mother of the coming Messiah Hruse: Old English “ground”, appears in Anglo Saxon Texts such as “Beowulf” & “The Wanderer” Malachite: Copper carbonite hydroxide green mineral Ordmaer: Ordmær, Anglo Saxon Earl and Father-in-Law of King Edager and Grandfather of King Edward the Martyr Sangfugol: Norwegian “Songbird” (Bokmål: “Sangfugl”, Nynorsk: “Songfugl”, dialect: Songfoggel) Towser: Sargent Towser in “Catch 22”, Major Major’s assistant and de facto head of the Squadron Bagba: The Dagba of Irish Mythology (+ Togo Spirit mentioned in James Frazer’s “The Golden Bough”) Cryunnos: Cernunnos, Celtic Horned God Hern: (King) Herne the Hunter, the leader of the Wild Hunt in British Myths Hernystir: Tir “Land” in Gaelic, so “Hern’s Land” Murhagh One-Arm: Nauda Airgetlam/“Silver-hand” Rhynn: Lost God in Michael Moorcock’s “Corum” stories: The Magical Eye of Rhynn is given to Corum to replace his lost eye Bindesekk: Norwegian “Bounded rucksack” Dror: Thor Einskaldir: “Ein skald”, “a skald/bard” in Norwegian (NN) Fingil: Fingal (Finn McCool) in James MacPherson’s “Ossian” Frayja: Freya/Frigg Hengfisk: Hengist Ingen Jegger: Norwegian “ingen jeger” (“no hunter”)/ “ingen jeg er” (“I am Nobody”, akin to Odysseus’ alias when meeting the Cyclops) Isbeorn: Norwegian “Isbjørn” (“Ice Bear”- Polar Bear) Jarnauga: Norwegian (NN) “Iron Eye” Löken: Loki/e plus Logi (“Fire”) whom he loses to when challenged at Utgard-Loke Memur: Mimir, the Wisest Jotun Nisse: Norwegian Folklore Creature Udun: Odin + Idun, provider of the Apples of Immortality for the Norse Gods (+ Udun, fortress of Morgoth in the “Silmarillion” & valley of Mordor in “Lord of the Rings”, Sindarin “Dark Pit”/“Underworld”) Adeon: Adonai, one of the Hebrew names of God Nuanni: Neptune (with a Mesopotamian twist?) Lector Ranessin: Pope Adrian IV (born Nicholas Breakspear), only English Pope to date Sulis: Celtic Water Diety worship at Bath Usies Adeon: “Sired by Adonai”? (+Adeon appears as a name in the Welsh “Mabinogion”) Sithi: Aos Si/Aes Sidhe, Irish name of a Mythical Supernatural Older Race of Elves/Fairies (“daoine sith” in Scottish Gaelic), “Sidhe” ancient “otherworldly” hills & barrows tied to Aos Si Amerasu: Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess of Japanese Shinto Mythology
I feel so old, I remember when this was fairly newish in the mid-1990. If you'd like to try something even older that reads like a dark, evocative fairly tale, try Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy (1970s-80s); it's uneven, the first book is the best, the others are somewhat flawed but it's quite unique and different from more recent fantasy.
@@neiltaylor513 Do you mean Dragonbone chair or Lyonesse? I think the vid gives a pretty good characterization of the Osten Ard series and their +/-, I never re-read them since the 90s but liked them back then, of course I hadn't read a lot of fantasy then. In the case of Vance he was in poor health and wanted to finish it but later recovered, so it's a pity that he didn't take more time for the last book that feels rushed at the end. Still, the 1st one (Suldrun's Garden) is better than almost anything else, I think, and certainly unique compared to most of the last 40 years fantasy.
@@bartolo498Hi, I was responding to your comment on Lyonesse, ah! That explains the ending then, first time I'd heard that. Yep I loved Suldrun's the best and amazed it gets so little comment. Just a few months ago I kept watching for the Complete Lyonesse on ebay and was fortunate to pick a quality one for very little.
I’d argue it isn’t forgotten. I first read MST in my teens. Still have them on my shelf, along with Williams other books. Booktubers read the exact same books that are hyped because they know it gets clicks. Most of it is trite in comparison to the plenitude of good fantasy out there. I’d even go far as saying booktubers/tiktok etc is killing the publishing world. It puts rubbish like Fourth Wing to the forefront instead of actual, good fantasy.
Pretty much nobody talks about tad williams which is crazy, dragonbone chair was my first dip into adult fantasy when i was a kid, started a whole love affair, epic fantasy books are the absolute best, when you have a big serious adventure with tons of politics ect. Does anybody know if theft of swords has a similar vibe? Or the shadow of what was lost? Maybe a sanderson book? My shelves are crammed and im frozen and unsure what to pick up next lol
I read Tad Williams and I liked it when I was a teenager but his writing was never like Martin or Jordan for me where I just wanted to run out and find the next book immediately.
I have read this trilogy. The last book is a behemoth but so good. My question for anyone that has opinion : Next in his publication order is the Otherland series. Should I go to that or go into his more recent continuation of the Osten Ard books???
You better read Otherland. The last King of Osten Ard is't finished yet. The last book of this four book trilogy (Tad Williams said himself that he is nog very good at finishing expected trilogies in three books 😅). It is expected in november 2024 I think (and contrary to Rothfuss & Martin I expect to read it then).
No, it's not. Only because it is meaty and dense. It is a slow read, but that's not a bad thing, just setting expectations. The payoffs are worth it. I would start with a lighter series or trilogy.
@@StephenAryan44 fair enough,I’ve only read Elantris,Emperors soul,Rage of dragons/fires of vengeance and the Riyria revelations trilogy which was technically 6 books put into 3 so far,what would u recommend next?,I know most ppl say Warbreaker and Mistborn and I’m gonna get to those soon but curious what else haha.
I don't know what Warbreaker is, so that's not my recommendation 😆 Ooh something lighter, and easier to start....for something folklore related, The Bear and the Nightingale by Katherine Arden, for more emotional and a bit more dense and meatier, Assassin's Apprentice trilogy by Robin Hobb, or for something King Arthur related, that feels.more historical, Bernard Cornwall starting with The Winter King
@@StephenAryan44 it’s another stand alone from Sanderson haha,but yeah I was actually looking into farseer trilogy to so that works haha,and I heard great things about Cornwall,I’ll have to look into the bear and nightingale tho thanks!
Well, Tad Williams might be a lyrical writer, but for my money Tolkien is the most literary writer in fantasy still and he reads so easy. Though perhaps not quite the same type of literary.
First time I ever read a book where I hated a character so completely in such a short amount of time. I think the writers of John Wick must have read this series lol
It's alright, have read it multiple times over 20 years. B+ series. Really slow, simple plots, main character is extremely annoying and shows little character growth. Would be hard to read for modern readers used to fast-paced modern fiction, so not sure it's a must read for Millenials or Gen Z.
I find it amazing that you reread books of which you find the characters annoying and the plots simple. What is the attraction of these books for you of it's not the plot and the characters.
There’s even a king, a loyal right hand guy, and a witch trio that interacts like Stannis, the bald guy, and the red witch. The similarities between MST and ASOIAF are almost endless.
Martin's work isn't about absolute originality. Little of it, is original, entirely, except for its presentation. It is derived from almost the whole fantasy genre. It's just his presentation, and especially his immersive world and style which make him so successful. Look at his early work, such as with House of the Worm: Obviously Dune, and also Time Machine by Wells come to mind. --- But he gives it a compelling form, which also has much characteristic darkness. Martin reflects the darkness of life.
That cover art is spectacular.
I'm reading Into The Narrowdark, book three of The Last King of Osten Ard, the sequel series to MS&T. Tad Williams is great and criminally unknown.
Still waiting for the last book. What an amazing sequel series - absolutely fantastic character work .
Love Tad Williams!
I just picked up the Dragonbone chair recently. I'm 232 pages in. Its def underrated on booktube. I only heard about it because it inspired Martin. I'm loving it. I'm so happy you mentioned the gorgeous prose. Its spellbinding. So many authors now have boring prose, but his takes you into his story. It's like you forget you're reading.
The Otherland series! Once you’re done with Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, move right to Otherland. Fantastic!
Another vital viewing video . I read book one decades ago but didn’t go on. I remember the ending was the first book to ever make me sob.
Almost done To Green Angel Tower. Great stuff
I think one of your first statements was correct. Tad Williams is a little known by book tubers, but that’s because most of them are chasing the new great thing that was published in 2023, as opposed to sampling some older books that are the foundation of the genre, and may have many of the great elements that Readers of only current fantasy would massively enjoy.
In my age group of fantasy readers, Williams is very much known
Agreed. Modern readers often don't care for the inspirations of modern authors.
I initially liked these but the pacing after 1500 pages grew cumbersome and I took a year between GAT1 and 2 to build up momentum to slog through the rest.
Couldn’t agree more, i read this series a couple of decades ago, I have stacks of fantasy books these RUclipsrs don’t even know exists. There is some out there that do classic, eg outlaw bookseller. I am always amazed by people who put themselves as an "authority" and yet seem to have such limited scope.
This. And I get so bored of Booktube hailing every new release as ONE OF THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME and most of said books are everything readers dismiss classic authors of being: generic
@@MichaelSmith-zx5lwit’s because we live in post modern era where people want complexities and morally grey characters and dark plot and villains 😢
@@obinnaiwudike7644 gemmel did that a long time ago
Tad Williams needs more recognition from modern-day fantasy readers. It's criminal how underrated he is. His sequel series (The Last King of Ostern Ard) is even better imo.
Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is my absolute favourite series of all time :) It's phenomenal and I truly don't understand why it's not more popular among the younger readers, though, I suppose it's partly due to it being an older series and not marketed currently.
Todd here. Nice video! Tad Williams is a Legend! I read the first to chapters of The Dragonbone Chair, you are right, it is a slow read, but I want to read the whole series to seee if I like it.
Wow! Thank you so much for reminding me of this Author. I read some of his work back in the 90's and loved it but I forgot about him over the years... I must look out for him again!
Im on the last book and MST is becoming one of my favourite series. Thinking about starting a Shadowmarch series after this. From what i've seen its also pretty unknown work of Williams
Williams is probably my favorite fantasy author. His pacing never bothered me, because, as you say, everything he writes draws you in. His Otherland series would be another for you to try.
Here in Germany he's always been kind of a big name in the genre whom you could basically find in any library with a fantasy shelf. And you don't compare him to other authors you compare other authors to Williams. As someone else said, his Otherland series is mindblowing in a way fantasy rarely is. So I just say it like it is: If you like to read high-quality fantasy that borders on actual literature, you have to pick up his books. There's just no excuse not to.
Hi 👋 Tad Williams is one of my favourite authors too!! 😊
I need to reread it! I read it probably around 23 years ago, I think before LotR.
I am always trying to find new authors. Thanks man!
Tad Williams helped me bridge the gap from young adult reader to the reader I am today 35 years later. I remember thinking, wow, This series is around 3500 pages! I went on to read his Otherland series which was also great. Tad deserves much more recognition than he currently gets.
The Otherland series is a must read!
This is in my top 5 fantasy series of all time. Just crazy good! Hope you enjoy the next books!
Great writing, character work, world, story. Nobody does melancholy so well after Tolkien.
Tad Williams, a favourite fantasy writer. The Osten Ard saga is in my top 5 series. Fantastic.
I read these books decades ago. I loved them . I thought I was the only one ever to enjoy them .
I have only read his Otheland books. You and Petrik make me wanna pick these up for sure. Thanks as always!
I've heard very little about Otherland! It's on my tbr!
@@libraryofaviking I loved it for its genre blending.
Definitely adding this to my TBR now. Hoping I can get to it next year!
I hope you will enjoy it!
absolutely love this series. Love the length, love the slow burn, love the world. Excellence.
Argh, I'm halfway through, I'll give it a listen when I finish the first book. I love it so much and I see so many parallels.
I did have a great time reading this. Will definitely continue... sometime 😅😂
Tad Williams is an awesome guy - interviewed him once and he was intelligent, thoughtful and just an all around great bloke. And his books do feel forgotten.
But worse than that - Imagine being Michael Moorcock and being unknown nowadays despite being the foundation for so much.
Tad Williams unknown? Maybe to RUclips but not to previous generations of fantasy readers. He is a master of authentically incorporating mythology. There is the essence of deep sadness intertwined in his prose that makes his work haunting.
Tad Williams is undeniably one of the best, and I've never quite understood the critiques about his pacing. Whether it's slow or fast, what truly matters is how captivating it is, and Tad Williams never disappoints in that regard.
I don't think he's that underappreciated, though (Brian Leee Durfee mentions him at least twice in every video 😁). Although the Osten Ard Saga usually gets more attention, the first series I read by Williams was 'Shadowmarch,' and it presented a captivating and less clichéd world compared to Osten Ard. However, when it comes to characters and the overall story, 'Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn' trilogy stands out as his masterpiece.
I love the series but the first 200 pages is quite possibly the slowest start to a series I've ever read. I seriously considered giving it a DNF and if it wasn't for the fact that so many authors I loved said it had a profound impact on them I would have. Once you get past that intro though I thought it was non stop adventure and entertainment.
@@NerdBookReview But you get so sucked into that world though! And then, when it opens up, because it's been so small for so long, it really feels like it's you who goes on an adventure. It's been a few years since I've read it, so maybe I've forgotten some bad things, but I was never close to giving up. I wish I had infinite time so I could reread it.
Totally agree with your assessment on The Dragonbone Chair. I absolutely love the whole MS&T series for all the reasons you mentioned. Tad Williams deserves so much more recognition!!
As others have said, he's hardly unknown or forgotten, except perhaps with those who won't look at slightly older fantasy books and parts of booktube. He has inspired a lot of Gen X authors, including me, and he remains one of the best living writers of fantasy, along with Robin Hobb. He IS one of the all time greats.
I think he's only "relatively unknown" by the youngest Millenials/Gen Z set. We Gen-X fantasy fans are familiar with his work. Honestly, if you're an older reader and you *haven't* heard of/read "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" or any of Tad William's other books, I'm gonna question if you are a serious fan of epic fantasy. Next you're going to tell me no one's heard of David & Leigh Eddings... :D
Thank you for this info, Ive seen these books and overlooked them many times. Intriguing!
My pleasure!
I haven't gotten to Tad Williams yet, but do have The Dragonbone Chair on my shelf. I suspect because of my love for Hobb he'll be an author for me! Also, if you want to check out a really great video about Tad Williams, Bridger from The Library Ladder has an excellent one worth checking out.
Josh, put Dragonbone Chair on your next poll for viewers to choose next month and I bet you get 90%. I cringed when you spent 8 hours of your life on that Buffy audiobook when you could have been spending that time with Simon & Binabek!😀
Yes, if audible credits weren't so expensive I would've bailed sooner! I suspect Memory, Sorrow and Thorn may be slated for 2025 at this point. Too many book series on the docket!
Great review! Looks like this book is almost as old as me… It would be interesting sometime to hear your thoughts on how classic fantasy has changed over the decades, what you think has improved or declined, that kind of thing.
Thank you! That would be interesting. I definitely need to read some more classic fantasies first!
Already have him on my readlist! 😁
One of my favourite fantasy series of all time which has been sadly neglected by Book Tube. I might get a lot of flak for saying this but Williams makes a lot of the “popular” fantasy authors of the day seem like children. He adds depth and gravitas to his books - making them seem mythic, and I loved that feeling as I chugged through these books.
I really urge you to finish this series and get started with the sequel - The Last King of Osten Ard which is arguable even better than this trilogy.
And a special mention to “ The Heart of What was Lost “ this is a novella I loved and still think of fondly to this day - you have a lot of excellent fantasy reading ahead of you. Enjoy !
My guy can't make a video without his catchphrase "Is definitely INSANE 😂😂😂"
This comment is insane 😂
@@libraryofaviking 😂😂😂 finally a response from a viking I'll treasure this moment
I admit I haven't read anything by Williams yet despite having most of his books on my shelves. I actually don't mind slow-burn stories either. He's definitely on my 2024 list though. Great video Johan!
I hope you will enjoy!
After you've had some time to reflect on the epic immensity of "Memory Sorrow and Thorn," you have to read "The Last King of Osten Ard." All the same characters, but it is set about twenty or thirty years later. Osten Ard is a world I love as much as Middle Earth.
Hello, I saw you have your books covered in some foil. I would like to protect my book cover, so I wanted to ask - what do you buy and how to use it so it looks so good? If there is some video you leatned that from or so
I have picked up The Dragonbone Chair and it’s on my 2024 short list. Just not sure when I’ll get to it
Totally agree: I read this masterpiece 30 years ago, and I loved it very much: I wonder why no one has ever considered it for cinema or (better) tv (HBO, please listen)...
Great review, such an amazing book, with writing that polished I don’t care about pacing. I found the same - totally immersed in the book and isn’t that what sets apart ‘good’ from ‘fantastic’ ?
I am glad you loved it as well! Absolutely!
Yesss Tad is brilliant and his prose is insane !
Absolutely beautiful prose!
You absolutely must read his Otherland series. Then you can be astonished about how prophetic it is!
It's firmly on my tbr!
I mean, if we’re talking about super influential but widely forgotten, Roger Zelazny’s books are largely out of print. Or there’s John M. Ford, who is only recently coming back into print but no one seems to be talking about him. The fact that they’re both dead doesn’t do them many favors.
Definitely not forgotten by me. Its been my favourite series since 2004, when I was 13 and came across it second hand.
I am so happy to see it get more attention these days!
Sanderson doesn't come close to me.
Pre Wikipedia: A long list of authors have influenced and inspired Williams's work: Ray Bradbury, Theodore Sturgeon, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Roger Zelazny, Harlan Ellison, Kurt Vonnegut, Ursula K. Le Guin, Hunter S. Thompson, Thomas Pynchon, J. D. Salinger, William Butler Yeats, Wallace Stevens, Barbara Tuchman, Philip K. Dick, Ruth Rendell, James Tiptree Jr. (Alice Sheldon), Jane Austen, T. S. Eliot, Jorge Luis Borges, Patrick O'Brian, Roald Dahl, Dr. Seuss (Theodor Geisel), A. A. Milne, J. J. Norwich, Stephen Jay Gould, John Updike, Thomas Berger, Raymond Chandler, William Shakespeare, and James Thurber.
Williams has also had an influence on other authors in his genre. His Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series was one of the works that inspired George R. R. Martin to write A Song of Ice and Fire. "I read Tad and was impressed by him, but the imitators that followed-well, fantasy got a bad rep for being very formulaic and ritual. And I read The Dragonbone Chair and said, 'My god, they can do something with this form,' and it's Tad doing it. It's one of my favorite fantasy series." Martin incorporated a nod to Williams in A Game of Thrones with "House Willum": The only members of the house mentioned are Lord Willum and his two sons, Josua and Elyas, a reference to the royal brothers in The Dragonbone Chair.
In "Tad Williams: The American Tolkien?" Ash Silverlock observes that "echoes of Williams's work" can be seen in the works of Robin Hobb, Terry Goodkind and Robert Jordan. Blake Charlton, Christopher Paolini, and Patrick Rothfuss have also indicated they've been inspired by Williams. ashsilverlock.wordpress.com/2011/12/01/tad-williams-the-american-tolkien/
Didn't realize his work was so tied into Martin's. I hear his name come up a lot in terms of great/underrated stuff on r/Fantasy... have managed to stumble across a couple of later books in his series, but not the starting points.
As a kid, I would’ve been so happy to read these three thick books. But alas, I read them in Finnish, which meant always waiting for months for the next slice to be translated and published. 12 books in total.
All the references and notes I have made so far in “The Dragonbone Chair”:
Prester John: Mythical Medieval Christian King in the “East” (Asia/Africa), many the Portuguese Expeditions to India and East Africa sought to find him and his kingdom as a potential trade partner and ally against the Ottoman Turks, leading to the Christian Portuguese-Ethiopian Alliance against the Muslim alliance of the Ottoman Empire and the Adal Sultanate in the Ethiopian-Adal War from 1529 to 1543
Erkynland: Anglo Saxon England
Hernystir: Celts
Rimmersmen: Vikings
Nabban: Italy
Beornoth: Ætheling mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle
Colmund: Ceolmund, 8th Century Bishop mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle
Eahlstan: 9th Century Bishop mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle
Eglaf: 11th Century Swedish Nobleman mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle (Elian, brother of Ulf Jarl)
Ethelferth: Royal herdsman mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle
Freawaru: Daughter of King Hrodgar in “Beowulf”
Haestan: Hastein/Hastingus/Hæsting, Viking (Danish) Chieftain mentioned in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, raided France & the Mediterranean with Bjorn Ironside, defeated in England by King Alfred
Hephzibah: Hebrew “my delight (is) in her”, 1) Queen of Judah, wife of King Hezekiah 2) In Jewish Medieval Apocalyptic Literature the Warrior Wife of Nathan, son of King David and Bathsheba, slayer of multiple enemy kings and mother of the coming Messiah
Hruse: Old English “ground”, appears in Anglo Saxon Texts such as “Beowulf” & “The Wanderer”
Malachite: Copper carbonite hydroxide green mineral
Ordmaer: Ordmær, Anglo Saxon Earl and Father-in-Law of King Edager and Grandfather of King Edward the Martyr
Sangfugol: Norwegian “Songbird” (Bokmål: “Sangfugl”, Nynorsk: “Songfugl”, dialect: Songfoggel)
Towser: Sargent Towser in “Catch 22”, Major Major’s assistant and de facto head of the Squadron
Bagba: The Dagba of Irish Mythology (+ Togo Spirit mentioned in James Frazer’s “The Golden Bough”)
Cryunnos: Cernunnos, Celtic Horned God
Hern: (King) Herne the Hunter, the leader of the Wild Hunt in British Myths
Hernystir: Tir “Land” in Gaelic, so “Hern’s Land”
Murhagh One-Arm: Nauda Airgetlam/“Silver-hand”
Rhynn: Lost God in Michael Moorcock’s “Corum” stories: The Magical Eye of Rhynn is given to Corum to replace his lost eye
Bindesekk: Norwegian “Bounded rucksack”
Dror: Thor
Einskaldir: “Ein skald”, “a skald/bard” in Norwegian (NN)
Fingil: Fingal (Finn McCool) in James MacPherson’s “Ossian”
Frayja: Freya/Frigg
Hengfisk: Hengist
Ingen Jegger: Norwegian “ingen jeger” (“no hunter”)/ “ingen jeg er” (“I am Nobody”, akin to Odysseus’ alias when meeting the Cyclops)
Isbeorn: Norwegian “Isbjørn” (“Ice Bear”- Polar Bear)
Jarnauga: Norwegian (NN) “Iron Eye”
Löken: Loki/e plus Logi (“Fire”) whom he loses to when challenged at Utgard-Loke
Memur: Mimir, the Wisest Jotun
Nisse: Norwegian Folklore Creature
Udun: Odin + Idun, provider of the Apples of Immortality for the Norse Gods (+ Udun, fortress of Morgoth in the “Silmarillion” & valley of Mordor in “Lord of the Rings”, Sindarin “Dark Pit”/“Underworld”)
Adeon: Adonai, one of the Hebrew names of God
Nuanni: Neptune (with a Mesopotamian twist?)
Lector Ranessin: Pope Adrian IV (born Nicholas Breakspear), only English Pope to date
Sulis: Celtic Water Diety worship at Bath
Usies Adeon: “Sired by Adonai”? (+Adeon appears as a name in the Welsh “Mabinogion”)
Sithi: Aos Si/Aes Sidhe, Irish name of a Mythical Supernatural Older Race of Elves/Fairies (“daoine sith” in Scottish Gaelic), “Sidhe” ancient “otherworldly” hills & barrows tied to Aos Si
Amerasu: Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess of Japanese Shinto Mythology
I feel so old, I remember when this was fairly newish in the mid-1990. If you'd like to try something even older that reads like a dark, evocative fairly tale, try Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy (1970s-80s); it's uneven, the first book is the best, the others are somewhat flawed but it's quite unique and different from more recent fantasy.
Read them, the ending on fast forward got me, like he got bored and wanted to finish it off. The series is one of the most magical going.
@@neiltaylor513 Do you mean Dragonbone chair or Lyonesse? I think the vid gives a pretty good characterization of the Osten Ard series and their +/-, I never re-read them since the 90s but liked them back then, of course I hadn't read a lot of fantasy then. In the case of Vance he was in poor health and wanted to finish it but later recovered, so it's a pity that he didn't take more time for the last book that feels rushed at the end. Still, the 1st one (Suldrun's Garden) is better than almost anything else, I think, and certainly unique compared to most of the last 40 years fantasy.
@@bartolo498Hi, I was responding to your comment on Lyonesse, ah! That explains the ending then, first time I'd heard that. Yep I loved Suldrun's the best and amazed it gets so little comment. Just a few months ago I kept watching for the Complete Lyonesse on ebay and was fortunate to pick a quality one for very little.
I’d argue it isn’t forgotten. I first read MST in my teens. Still have them on my shelf, along with Williams other books. Booktubers read the exact same books that are hyped because they know it gets clicks. Most of it is trite in comparison to the plenitude of good fantasy out there. I’d even go far as saying booktubers/tiktok etc is killing the publishing world. It puts rubbish like Fourth Wing to the forefront instead of actual, good fantasy.
Pretty much nobody talks about tad williams which is crazy, dragonbone chair was my first dip into adult fantasy when i was a kid, started a whole love affair, epic fantasy books are the absolute best, when you have a big serious adventure with tons of politics ect.
Does anybody know if theft of swords has a similar vibe? Or the shadow of what was lost? Maybe a sanderson book? My shelves are crammed and im frozen and unsure what to pick up next lol
Cumulatively, over 17 million copies of Williams's works have been sold.
I read Tad Williams and I liked it when I was a teenager but his writing was never like Martin or Jordan for me where I just wanted to run out and find the next book immediately.
I'm going to say that Williams in turn was influenced by Roger Zelazny...
I have read this trilogy. The last book is a behemoth but so good. My question for anyone that has opinion : Next in his publication order is the Otherland series. Should I go to that or go into his more recent continuation of the Osten Ard books???
You better read Otherland. The last King of Osten Ard is't finished yet. The last book of this four book trilogy (Tad Williams said himself that he is nog very good at finishing expected trilogies in three books 😅). It is expected in november 2024 I think (and contrary to Rothfuss & Martin I expect to read it then).
Thanks for this video. @B.LEE.DbrianleedurfeeREVIEWS mentions Tad all the time, one of few.
Would this be a good series for someone fairly newer to fantasy?
No, it's not. Only because it is meaty and dense. It is a slow read, but that's not a bad thing, just setting expectations. The payoffs are worth it. I would start with a lighter series or trilogy.
@@StephenAryan44 fair enough,I’ve only read Elantris,Emperors soul,Rage of dragons/fires of vengeance and the Riyria revelations trilogy which was technically 6 books put into 3 so far,what would u recommend next?,I know most ppl say Warbreaker and Mistborn and I’m gonna get to those soon but curious what else haha.
I don't know what Warbreaker is, so that's not my recommendation 😆 Ooh something lighter, and easier to start....for something folklore related, The Bear and the Nightingale by Katherine Arden, for more emotional and a bit more dense and meatier, Assassin's Apprentice trilogy by Robin Hobb, or for something King Arthur related, that feels.more historical, Bernard Cornwall starting with The Winter King
@@StephenAryan44 it’s another stand alone from Sanderson haha,but yeah I was actually looking into farseer trilogy to so that works haha,and I heard great things about Cornwall,I’ll have to look into the bear and nightingale tho thanks!
@@KyleMcGee4772definitely start with Hobb then. She is one of the best living fantasy authors, along with Tad Williams.
Well, Tad Williams might be a lyrical writer, but for my money Tolkien is the most literary writer in fantasy still and he reads so easy. Though perhaps not quite the same type of literary.
First time I ever read a book where I hated a character so completely in such a short amount of time. I think the writers of John Wick must have read this series lol
I finished trilogy week ago i had best time
Shadowmarch had some nice characters and plots but didnt stand out that much.
There’s barely even fan art for this series. It’s depressing
It's criminal :(
Then says something 🤨. Tell fans who like Sanderson George rr Martin
To read tad Williams see hen they will fall in love with it and create fan art
Yes! That's so true! I just started rereading the series and even I noticed that. It really tells you about the state 😢
Great books, but I can't stand the in world names of characters and places. So over the top and annoying. Also the names of the months
It's alright, have read it multiple times over 20 years. B+ series. Really slow, simple plots, main character is extremely annoying and shows little character growth. Would be hard to read for modern readers used to fast-paced modern fiction, so not sure it's a must read for Millenials or Gen Z.
Why is that? Not enough complex characters or symbols
@@obinnaiwudike7644 I hate the tagging of people as boomers, gen x y z, people are individuals
I find it amazing that you reread books of which you find the characters annoying and the plots simple. What is the attraction of these books for you of it's not the plot and the characters.
First