I think Jeff, when he talks about his teacher, is speaking of my father, Irving Fiske (1908-90) playwright,freelance writer, WPA writer and author of “Hamlet in Modern English, “ which was highly praised by many preeminent people of the time, and very highly praised by George Bernard Shaw.
@@Hoooward , I haven't. I did look up the book he read from -- 1908 - The Analysis of Play Construction and Dramatic Principle by William Thompson Price. It's available free online since it's out of print.
I usually express a distinction between - Plot/Concrete conflict: The protagonist's objective vs the antagonist's objective. The struggle between two forces. Each one excludes the other. If one character achieves his gold, the other one can't. This way, one character acts and the other one reacts; which also means the second one acts and the first also has to react. This makes the story moves and feel ENTERTAINING. This is why there are so many films only based on philosophical conflict that feel boring. But you can have both types of conflict. - Conceptual/philosophical/abstract conflict (which relates to the theme): One concept vs another. These could be character's beliefs/motivations or two different kinds of real life afirmations. In storytelling one concept can give you a theme; only in a form of description; but this is often weak. In order to give a strong message or reflection into the story, we have to TEST one concept against another. Sometimes a concept will appear; sometimes another, and this will make us think about how these concepts work in real life. At the end, the conflict that wins or feels predominant will make a statement of the reality we live. And this will give us a strong theme, and maybe a strong emotional impact. Conceptual conflict brings deepness to the story. These is why there is often films based only on plot conflict and will feel empty or superficial.
I love that this advice is so concrete. He really gives something you can literally apply; just look at what your protagonist is doing at the end of your story. Other advice I've heard tended to be more abstract, like 'Just sit with it for a while' or 'It'll all come together'. They left me with so many more questions haha. Really appreciate the hands-on advice here. Great interview! Theme is my favorite story topic.
McKee has a similar approach - but it's more about 'values' at stake. He calls it the "controlling idea" - how and why life changes expressed in a single sentence. Of course, you may not discover the real controlling idea until after you finished a draft/several drafts. Groundhog Day: “Happiness fills our lives when we learn to love unconditionally.” Dirty Harry movies: “Justice triumphs (Value) when the protagonist is more violent than the criminals (Cause)" Chinatown or Seven: “Injustice prevails because the antagonist is overwhelmingly ruthless and powerful.” Jaws: “The courage and genius of humanity will prevail over the hostility of Nature”
Not only is this just amazing advice that has finally helped me nail down how to really settle and solidify what the "theme" of my story will be and how it will drive said story, but also something about Jeff's voice and the way he talks and explains everything helps me sleep. Like it's not ASMR or anything but his voice is just really nice, like how Morgan Freeman or Bob Ross just have those perfect voices.
Well, everyone has their own way of doing things, but I think what Jeff is actually saying is that most of the time the writer 'discovers' the real 'theme' during the process - and McKee says something similar, to paraphrase; during the writing, usually when you get stuck, or frustrated the story "explodes" for the writer, and the real truth of the story reveals itself. Something like, "I thought the story was about A, but it's really about B". I think this makes sense, because different creative choices we make to problems we encounter can reveal things to the writer about what they're trying to say. In my own experience, when I say things to myself like, "This character wouldn't really *do* that..." it gives me insight that I didn't have at the start. Of course, there's no reason when you can't be settle on the theme now, and adapt it later on in the process if you want to. I was certainly sure I knew what I was writing in the beginning, before I realised it had become something else. Whatever helps get it written. I came to the conclusion, 'don't force it', and just let the story be what it truly is. Just my opinion. Good luck!
This video is extremely helpful. I've been struggling a lot with the themes for the book I'm writing and the thought that keeps coming to me is the fact that I can't seem to nail this sucker down! I come up with one way to describe it and the next day it seems like it's moved! The reality is a lot more reassuring than that. It's not that the theme has changwd, it's that it really is just a gut feeling. I can try all I want to boil my theme down to one key thing but I'm never really going to be able to, because if I was able to, I wouldn't have to write the book. Thanks for sharing this advice. It's been incredibly reassuring to be reminded that theme, no matter how much you try to grasp it and confine it to analysis and theory, is just something you feel. Something you carry with you after experiencing your story.
Hindsight is 20/20 . You don’t know until you know….I get it! Let it sit with you. The story ALWAYS tell you what it’s about. Most people are uncomfortable with that kind of ambiguity…Thank you for this interview.
Ironic that he talked about a movie changing someone's life because God damn did this video change mine. Best video on writing I've ever seen. Finally, one that's actually great emotional advice and not just story structure! I'm saving this video and sharing it with everyone!
Excellent advice and a true indicator why many stories in modern times miss the mark. They become preachy, take themselves too seriously, and try to force the theme into the viewer rather than let it appear organically
Its helped clarify the function and shape of it in my story. It is now a beacon shining from the shore; a waypoint on the lonely and at times uncertain sea of story . Very helpful.
This was really good and helped me conceptualize theme in a more practical way. Thank you! Found this channel via an interview on RK Outpost. What a gem!
I don't know if I quite agree with Kitchen; his method seems too intuitive. When I write a script, I don't write with, to quote Albert Maltz, "a tactical axe" to grind. I just start with characters that share personalities, philosophies, and general themes *plural* that I like, and then I slowly try to understand what it is these characters are saying to me--- because every character I make comes from my head, they're a part of me. There's a common factor in them that fascinates me enough to ask, 'Who are you? Where did you come from? What do you want?', and, finally, 'Please...tell me: What do you need me to share?' If you start a story with one theme, or one idea, it will become one-note, but, in my limited experience, if you start with multiple ideas you're more likely to find, organically, what your characters and story are trying to say *through you* .
I think what you’re describing is the steps one takes to be able to find the theme of their story in the first place and isn’t actually in conflict with the video, because it’s true as you flesh out your characters and come to understand them better, that can drastically change the story you’re going to be telling with them. A lot of writers are very character focused when it comes to developing their story, I know I’m one of them. While I agree that this video is a great way to pinpoint your story’s theme if you haven’t quite figured it out yet, or conversely, a good way to check if the theme you THINK you’re writing is actually the theme your story presently has. It still requires the steps you’re talking about to even reach that point. All stories are loose thoughts and questions and exploration of characters but eventually you refine a story enough to know what the theme is. You can’t know your story’s theme until you know your character well enough to know what they want goal-wise and what they need emotionally, the latter being something the character usually doesn’t start the story knowing, especially when it conflicts with their original goals, but it’s where the story’s theme will ultimately come from. All stories have subtext aka the theme, pinpointing your theme is extremely helpful in making a cohesive story that doesn’t get lost on unrelated tangents that go nowhere or accidentally contradict other aspects of the story’s theme/message. You can explore different themes or variations of the main theme through different secondary characters and subplots, but just like a story only has one true protagonist (even in stories with multiple POVs), there is still one story-defining theme that comes from that protagonist’s journey. The closer you get to your final draft the more apparent this will be. It’s a question all writers eventually need to answer because when someone asks you what your story is about, you can’t just answer with plot points, you need to be able to say what it’s REALLY about.
Wow I actually fall victim to the latter point a lot. Starting with a theme and using it to structure of my story and then getting stuck on things as the story evolves because I'm so hellbent on sticking to it. Very good advice to let the story be itself and then restructure it accordingly.
I don’t think I’ve ever liked a video that has a typo in its thumbnail, but this one was so good I couldn’t not! Gonna take it on faith it was intentional. Great stuff!
Thank you so much for creating this channel! I am learning so much from the content on here and love to learn as much as I can from film. Thank you so much Film Courage!
This video solidifies my belief that protagonist(s) should be active characters in the sense that they are the mouthpieces and the ones doing the actions through which the theme(s) of the story are expressed. That’s why I’ve always been drawn towards character-driven stories, not plot-driven ones (plot-driven ones can work so long as the characters play an active role in DRIVING it forward).
I always though that the protagonist was "trapped" by the theme, in the sense that the story imposed the theme on the characters. This helps me look at it the other way, as the the coming out of the protagonist's actions. Both visions together give me a little more leeway between my protagonist's volitional capability and the meaning I see emerging in my story. I can play with that. I can figure out if they are at odds or aligned. And if they're opposed I can experiment with it and see what emerges. Sometimes two motifs that appear to clash end up converging into a deeper theme.
Who runs this channel? The Interviews are awesome and cut up into single questions that can be seen quickly and digested through the day. The questions and insights are very useful. It's quite remarkable. Whoever you are, thank you.
I realize that instead of thinking of a theme and trying to force the elements of a story to abide by that theme, I should think of the initial theme I set out to do as a guideline, while the actions that the protagonists takes to solve problems and dilemmas will crystalize the true theme of a given story. And by having the theme crystalize by the main character's actions, it will be easier to model other aspects of the story to be consistently in line with this true theme.
Figuring out your theme is pretty easy if you know how you want it to end: imagine the opposite. Imagine the story ending in a way that irks you to the core, and then ask why. Your answer is the theme.
Could you mention an example of how to come up with the theme using this method Mayb using a movie you have watched such as pirates of the caribean dead mans chest or any other movie you prefer
@@vaquezartup365 It's easier to use this exercise on your own work as the whole point is to encourage directed introspection, but suppose Robert Downey Jr's Ironman was never able to "make the sacrifice play." I forget which Marvel movie that is.
Another informative, insightful clip. If people aren't able to take this subject matter with the appropriate gravity it imbues due to a simple copy edit foible then perhaps they need to rethink their motivations.
The channel You Are Storyteller goes into greater depth of the subject starting with their first video called "The Armature" which is their word for the idea of theme. Here's an example: in Jaws Brody is only ever able to kill the shark when the boat is sinking and he's firmly in the water staring it down. If you go all the way back to early in the story one of the locals ribs him, "You don't get in the water do you, chief?" In other words Brody has a fear of the water but the only way he can save his people from the tyranny of the shark is by meeting the shark on the shark's own turf. Every other attempt to solve the problem that doesn't involve Brody being in the water fails. As Brody is swimming to shore he tells Hooper, "You know I used to be afraid of the water." The meaning then -- it's theme, it's armature, or whatever you want to call it -- is that you must face your fears.
McKee has a similar principle with the "controlling idea" and values expressed. It's more value based than protagonist action (but protagonist action expresses values?) The Controlling Idea must be expressible in a single sentence describing how and why life undergoes change from one condition of existence at the beginning to another at the end. It should be said, that in McKee's controlling idea, the principle doesn't need to be particularly clever - it can be quite basic or straightforward (and for the writing process, not necessarily to pitch the idea). Jeff's example of Tootsie feels like a kind of "hook", if you see what I mean. Groundhog Day: “Happiness fills our lives when we learn to love unconditionally.” Dirty Harry movies: “Justice triumphs (Value) when the protagonist is more violent than the criminals (Cause)" Chinatown or Seven: “Injustice prevails because the antagonist is overwhelmingly ruthless and powerful.” Jaws: “The courage and genius of humanity will prevail over the hostility of Nature”
@@filmcourage Thanks! I saved this interview on my playlist intending to watch it again because I couldn't finish it at the time when I viewed it. Great to know there's an example. Jeff is one of the most eloquent speakers and I liked the pointer he gave about the actions of the protagonist as the basis for the theme of the movie. I never thought about that. I always thought that the theme must be something philosophical. I sometimes struggled to identify the theme of my story and this interview is definitely a big help. I observed that "What's the theme of your movie?" is one of the top questions during the interviews in film festivals, press conferences, movie promotions etc., and I find it to be a tough question to answer. Gotta buy Jeff Kitchen's book!
I have to admit, theme is the one idea I've had a really hard time grasping. I look up common themes, and I see things like 'love' and 'war'. What if some of the story is about war, and some is about love? What is the overarching theme? I can't grasp how 'war' could even be a theme. If you have a longer story with many characters and situations, could it be possible your story has many themes?
There's a video by a channel called The Closer Look that talks about themes, and in the video the speaker says that thinking of theme as a topic (ie: 'love' and 'war') can be too broad. He says something that may be helpful instead is to think of a theme as a philosophical question. Here's a link to the video if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/JNbrMPXqHDI/видео.htmlsi=0G0in29LwGMmnsX5
Plot is the brain. Dilemma is the heart. Setting are the bones. Style is a lung and tone is the other. Character is the liver. Suspense is the bladder. Theme is the skin.
Theme, I think, requires a capacity for philosophy, and philosophy isn't understood by modern writers (the ones churning out this hot garbage), because they don't understand philosophy's purpose: to come as close as possible to what is objectively true or universally timeless. They don't believe in moral objectivity (but they're deadly sure everyone who disagrees with them is an ist of the worst description); so philosophy, to them, is often mistaken for sophistry; with sophistry itself being nothing more than a political weapon. Their politics aren't down stream of their values, they couldn't even tell you what their core values are, beyond platitudes they've been parroting since middle school. I think a large part of why movies are so abysmal comes down to the fact that philosophy simply isn't *learned* anymore, its affectations are mimed, through sophistry, just enough to be tolerated by an ideologically consolidated source: I'm speaking, of course, of the nationalized academy.
Regarding "gut level", Jordan Peterson correctly identified that the creative person only senses "I'm on to something here". They can't necessarily articulate it fully, they just know it's potentially valuable to others.
The gut level idea may make sense but nothing that Jordan Peterson has ever said has ever made sense. The man is a crackpot shaman. It amazes me how seemingly intelligent people are taken in by his nonsense.
Lawrence Fleischer I have a lot of disagreements with Peterson myself, specifically when it comes to religion, abortion, having children, animal rights etc. But attempting to outright dismiss everything a given person is saying without being specific, especially in combination with tarnishing their followers by questioning their intelligence, is nothing but the epitome of the ad-hominem fallacy.
@@cosmicprison9819 Ok, I overstated my case. I'll say this: I've never heard Peterson say anything that made sense. Maybe in other videos that I haven't seen he's been the epitome of clarity and rationality. But I have watched dozens of his you tubes and have never heard him say anything that was well thought out and rational. He just babbles on and on with nonsensical arguments. I'll give him credit for one thing, though. He knows a lot of big words. If you have any links to videos where he's been able to articulate anything that is understandable I'd love to see it. Regarding his followers: I'd challenge any of them to describe any of the talks that I have seen in a way that makes sense. I bet they can't.
Lawrence Fleischer Well, that's still kind of a blanket statement, since I have no idea which videos of his you've seen. 😁 I usually don't have trouble understanding what he's on about... doesn't mean I'll agree with his logic... but I can always see where he's coming from. Even though, when it comes to the issue of having children, which he advocates for despite his own frequent acknowledgment that "life is suffering", I'll have to appeal to his personal history in order to explain his mental backflips on that matter.
Steve V Sure, I'm not claiming he reinvented the wheel. He just made the idea accessible to a widespread audience again. Thinkers from ancient Greece kind of have a hard time spreading their ideas on RUclips in person; they need modern mouthpieces who've read their books, understood them, and are capable of conveying them to laypeople, even if that means in a simplified form with easier-to-understand language.
The books may be hard to find. Here's is what Jeff wrote to a commenter previously, "Price wrote two advanced books on dramatic technique, The Analysis of Plot Construction and Dramatic Principle (1908), and The Philosophy of Dramatic Principle and Method"
This is hard for me to stomach because I have an elegant theme which I constructed for a series of multiple novels... It's not fitting well and I'm at a place where I'll have to rework things. I can see it 50% into my first draft, and I am still hell bent on finishing this first draft. 😩
3:12 - 3:28 Why does it sound so much like the end of MY story??? 😅 The only difference is, there's a realization of these things but the "escape from a trap" is still questionable...
I love videos like these. 14 Minutes and 41 seconds and NO DEFINITION... "The way in which the protagonist resolves the dilemma expresses the theme of the story" is not a definition. It's a commentary about where you might be able to find the theme. Theme: Your (the author, storyteller) proclamation of what you believe is the Proper way to live. Now, how is "Love conquers all" the Theme of ROMEO & JULIET? How is "Love conquers all" Will's proclamation of his belief about the proper way to live? That story shows that Love indeed does not conquer all. But as a cautionary tale, perhaps Shakespeare is saying that the problem is not love but petty rivalries. Love did conquer those rivalries as far as Rome and Juliet were concerned. Why not for the Montagues and the Capulets? Ultimately, these two lovers do bring the Montagues and Capulets together in tragedy. Given that everything in your story is a variation on your Theme, an argument for and against it, it should be fairly clear what your Theme is as you're writing. Yes, sit with it and let it evolve, by all means. But it's a lot simpler than 14 minutes would suggest. What are notable Themes? TITANIC: Live your life authentically, even at the risk of dying, because the alternative is to already be dead inside, no matter how long you may live. STAR WARS: The spiritual path is better than the mechanistic. HEAT: Never have something in your life that you can't drop in 30 seconds flat when the heat is around the corner. ALIEN: The universe does not care. ALIENS: The maternal instinct is what makes us human. ALIEN: ROMULUS: What is the greater good. THE WIZARD OF OZ: There's no place like home or You already had what you're looking for. Your Theme may sound backwards, or ironic. As long as it allows your characters and your story to slug it out around that one issue, it's a good Theme.
Question: what if your story is about revenge, but at the end your character decides to forgive? Is your story theme revenge or forgiveness? Is it revenge and forgiveness?
I would say it depends on what happens and the evens that lead the protagonist to forgive. It might be the theme of letting go of anger, moving on from grief, empathy for the enemy or there’s something more important. All depends on how you shape it. :)
If someone recommends a movie i ask "tell me what it is about without mentioning any fictional characters places or events." If this cant be done in a concise way, the movie probably isnt worth watching. Movies that dont follow this rule tend to be disorganized, disjointed, rambling stream of consciousness pieces. The writer(s) should build a movie from a single granular idea, not brainstorm ways to fill 90-120 minutes with content.
Only watching movies that follow a criteria is a good way to see a lot of the same shitty movie. Bad movies can teach just as much and be just as entertaining as a masterpiece - depends on the viewer. Ex: The Room. I studied it in film school, find it incredibly entertaining and it’s one of the worst movies you’ll ever watch.
@@briangill23 i haven't seen it. I've seen room about the girl who was abducted with her mom and lived in a storage shed but not the room. Actually room was a very good movie and it follows the criteria beautifully. It's about our perspective and reality and asks probing questions about what we can imagine about what we haven't seen. The storage shed is a metaphor for our lived experience. The little girl has a hard time imagining that there is a world outside of the storage shed where she has lived her whole life. That's a granular idea and the movie doesn't stray far from it.
Honestly, do you even need a theme? It seems like the individual audience members make up their own and believe it because of the death-of-the-author nonsense. See e.g. Ray Bradbury finally storming out of a lecture he was giving because nobody could understand that _Fahrenheit 451_ wasn't about censorship.
Themes can sometimes be subtle things. And I think if an author has tapped into the creative unconscious in their work, the theme will transcend the author's conscious intent. The author may not even fully understand the meaning of their own work.
Intelectual mumbo jumbo: Red riding hood. Theme: Kids, be safe. How did the protagonist resolve the "dilemma"? By getting eaten? Or isn't red riding hood a good story? So much bad advice that makes writing impossible.
Not a writer but resolution is a decision by the protagonist. The resolution can be a mistake too. But you're sort of right, sometimes protagonists can be victims and not have any sort of decision to deal with their dilemma. I feel like a better way of wording the advice would be to "look for how the protagonist reacts to the dilemma" instead.
Guys. Guys guys guys. It’s difficult to take this subject matter with the appropriate gravity when your title is completely grammatically incorrect. *WRITERS* - the plural form of writer, not the singular possessive, is what you’re looking for 😑😑😑😑😑
This guy seems to be completely confused. He has a hard time speaking in complete sentences. And he doesn't give any real good examples. I'm not sure he knows what "theme" is. Hopefully, he's a much better writer than lecturer.
I coudn't find a thing on IMDB the guy ever made. He is only mentionned once as a special thanks for a film that got 6.5/10. Be aware of screenwriter gurus who never made anything.
Correction; never made anything THAT GOT PICKED UP. Then again, somebody greenlit a movie called “Deadly DILF” so obviously being a good screenwriter doesn’t necessarily equate to being the most successful. Lots of trash gets made and lots of perfectly good scripts never do. Tis the industry.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
"The way in which the protagonist resolves the dilemma expresses the theme of the story" - very well said 0:40
Perfect 🎉
I think Jeff, when he talks about his teacher, is speaking of my father, Irving Fiske (1908-90) playwright,freelance writer, WPA writer and author of “Hamlet in Modern English, “ which was highly praised by many preeminent people of the time, and very highly praised by George Bernard Shaw.
That quote was above and beyond what I came searching for when I searched for a video explaining theme. It just solved the dilemma of my story.
This whole channel was a God send.
Agreed. I've learned so much watching these segments. I've grown as a writer, by a magnitude I can't fathom.
Great to see you enjoying this channel. Hope you continue to find value here.
Great to hear that! Keep learning and keep writing!
Is*
@@Thenoobestgirl gurl. Be quiet.
Theme revealed by the protagonist's resolution method, not an abstract ideal -- Like it!
Have you listened to Lisa Cron's TED talk? :)
@@Hoooward , I haven't. I did look up the book he read from -- 1908 - The Analysis of Play Construction and Dramatic Principle by William Thompson Price. It's available free online since it's out of print.
I usually express a distinction between
- Plot/Concrete conflict: The protagonist's objective vs the antagonist's objective. The struggle between two forces. Each one excludes the other. If one character achieves his gold, the other one can't. This way, one character acts and the other one reacts; which also means the second one acts and the first also has to react. This makes the story moves and feel ENTERTAINING. This is why there are so many films only based on philosophical conflict that feel boring. But you can have both types of conflict.
- Conceptual/philosophical/abstract conflict (which relates to the theme): One concept vs another. These could be character's beliefs/motivations or two different kinds of real life afirmations. In storytelling one concept can give you a theme; only in a form of description; but this is often weak. In order to give a strong message or reflection into the story, we have to TEST one concept against another. Sometimes a concept will appear; sometimes another, and this will make us think about how these concepts work in real life. At the end, the conflict that wins or feels predominant will make a statement of the reality we live. And this will give us a strong theme, and maybe a strong emotional impact. Conceptual conflict brings deepness to the story. These is why there is often films based only on plot conflict and will feel empty or superficial.
I really like this distinction, thanks for sharing!
@@stoatsnhoney Thanks for your response.
That definition of theme nearly instantly revealed the backbone of my story to me. Thank you!
Nice!
Not only are these videos perfect for screenwriting, but they are just as good for fictional writing. Thank you so very much for these videos!
I love that this advice is so concrete. He really gives something you can literally apply; just look at what your protagonist is doing at the end of your story. Other advice I've heard tended to be more abstract, like 'Just sit with it for a while' or 'It'll all come together'. They left me with so many more questions haha. Really appreciate the hands-on advice here. Great interview! Theme is my favorite story topic.
McKee has a similar approach - but it's more about 'values' at stake. He calls it the "controlling idea" - how and why life changes expressed in a single sentence. Of course, you may not discover the real controlling idea until after you finished a draft/several drafts.
Groundhog Day: “Happiness fills our lives when we learn to love unconditionally.”
Dirty Harry movies: “Justice triumphs (Value) when the protagonist is more violent than the criminals (Cause)"
Chinatown or Seven: “Injustice prevails because the antagonist is overwhelmingly ruthless and powerful.”
Jaws: “The courage and genius of humanity will prevail over the hostility of Nature”
Not only is this just amazing advice that has finally helped me nail down how to really settle and solidify what the "theme" of my story will be and how it will drive said story, but also something about Jeff's voice and the way he talks and explains everything helps me sleep. Like it's not ASMR or anything but his voice is just really nice, like how Morgan Freeman or Bob Ross just have those perfect voices.
Great to see you getting twice the value from this video!
Well, everyone has their own way of doing things, but I think what Jeff is actually saying is that most of the time the writer 'discovers' the real 'theme' during the process - and McKee says something similar, to paraphrase; during the writing, usually when you get stuck, or frustrated the story "explodes" for the writer, and the real truth of the story reveals itself. Something like, "I thought the story was about A, but it's really about B".
I think this makes sense, because different creative choices we make to problems we encounter can reveal things to the writer about what they're trying to say. In my own experience, when I say things to myself like, "This character wouldn't really *do* that..." it gives me insight that I didn't have at the start.
Of course, there's no reason when you can't be settle on the theme now, and adapt it later on in the process if you want to. I was certainly sure I knew what I was writing in the beginning, before I realised it had become something else. Whatever helps get it written. I came to the conclusion, 'don't force it', and just let the story be what it truly is. Just my opinion. Good luck!
This video is extremely helpful. I've been struggling a lot with the themes for the book I'm writing and the thought that keeps coming to me is the fact that I can't seem to nail this sucker down! I come up with one way to describe it and the next day it seems like it's moved!
The reality is a lot more reassuring than that. It's not that the theme has changwd, it's that it really is just a gut feeling. I can try all I want to boil my theme down to one key thing but I'm never really going to be able to, because if I was able to, I wouldn't have to write the book.
Thanks for sharing this advice. It's been incredibly reassuring to be reminded that theme, no matter how much you try to grasp it and confine it to analysis and theory, is just something you feel. Something you carry with you after experiencing your story.
Hindsight is 20/20 . You don’t know until you know….I get it! Let it sit with you. The story ALWAYS tell you what it’s about. Most people are uncomfortable with that kind of ambiguity…Thank you for this interview.
Ironic that he talked about a movie changing someone's life because God damn did this video change mine. Best video on writing I've ever seen. Finally, one that's actually great emotional advice and not just story structure! I'm saving this video and sharing it with everyone!
Excellent advice and a true indicator why many stories in modern times miss the mark.
They become preachy, take themselves too seriously, and try to force the theme into the viewer rather than let it appear organically
Writers really need to understand why Hemingway’s iceberg theory is important when approaching themes.
I love the questions of the interviewer as much as I love the answers.
Doing our best, thanks for watching Frances!
"Clever one liner" seems to sum up most movies nowadays, including Disney/Marvel movies.
Its helped clarify the function and shape of it in my story. It is now a beacon shining from the shore; a waypoint on the lonely and at times uncertain sea of story . Very helpful.
You connect with such articulate thinkers. Appreciate you diving deep on creativity and process
We appreciate your comment Danielle! Thank you for posting!
Jeff is a protagonist by himself)) and Film Courage is a Theme. Thank you guys!
Cheers Dmitry!
This was really good and helped me conceptualize theme in a more practical way. Thank you! Found this channel via an interview on RK Outpost. What a gem!
Welcome! Great to see you finding value here.
I don't know if I quite agree with Kitchen; his method seems too intuitive. When I write a script, I don't write with, to quote Albert Maltz, "a tactical axe" to grind. I just start with characters that share personalities, philosophies, and general themes *plural* that I like, and then I slowly try to understand what it is these characters are saying to me--- because every character I make comes from my head, they're a part of me. There's a common factor in them that fascinates me enough to ask, 'Who are you? Where did you come from? What do you want?', and, finally, 'Please...tell me: What do you need me to share?'
If you start a story with one theme, or one idea, it will become one-note, but, in my limited experience, if you start with multiple ideas you're more likely to find, organically, what your characters and story are trying to say *through you* .
I think what you’re describing is the steps one takes to be able to find the theme of their story in the first place and isn’t actually in conflict with the video, because it’s true as you flesh out your characters and come to understand them better, that can drastically change the story you’re going to be telling with them.
A lot of writers are very character focused when it comes to developing their story, I know I’m one of them. While I agree that this video is a great way to pinpoint your story’s theme if you haven’t quite figured it out yet, or conversely, a good way to check if the theme you THINK you’re writing is actually the theme your story presently has. It still requires the steps you’re talking about to even reach that point. All stories are loose thoughts and questions and exploration of characters but eventually you refine a story enough to know what the theme is.
You can’t know your story’s theme until you know your character well enough to know what they want goal-wise and what they need emotionally, the latter being something the character usually doesn’t start the story knowing, especially when it conflicts with their original goals, but it’s where the story’s theme will ultimately come from.
All stories have subtext aka the theme, pinpointing your theme is extremely helpful in making a cohesive story that doesn’t get lost on unrelated tangents that go nowhere or accidentally contradict other aspects of the story’s theme/message. You can explore different themes or variations of the main theme through different secondary characters and subplots, but just like a story only has one true protagonist (even in stories with multiple POVs), there is still one story-defining theme that comes from that protagonist’s journey.
The closer you get to your final draft the more apparent this will be. It’s a question all writers eventually need to answer because when someone asks you what your story is about, you can’t just answer with plot points, you need to be able to say what it’s REALLY about.
I really wish I could do that... I haven't been through enough to have more than a note in me. I feel like I'm two-dimensional
Wow I actually fall victim to the latter point a lot. Starting with a theme and using it to structure of my story and then getting stuck on things as the story evolves because I'm so hellbent on sticking to it. Very good advice to let the story be itself and then restructure it accordingly.
Oh my god… I’ve been struggling with this for so long. Thank you! ✨♥️👍✨
I don’t think I’ve ever liked a video that has a typo in its thumbnail, but this one was so good I couldn’t not! Gonna take it on faith it was intentional. Great stuff!
Cheers Matthew, thank you for sticking with us!
My theme issue resolved due to this video... Thank you so much sir... Thank you film courage ❤️
Thank you so much for creating this channel! I am learning so much from the content on here and love to learn as much as I can from film. Thank you so much Film Courage!
Love to hear it. Thanks for spending some time with us. Cheers!
"Don't dictate to your audience." Very well said. It sounds obvious when an expert mentions this, but it's a trope that some creatives fall into.
How does this video impact the way you look at theme?
This video solidifies my belief that protagonist(s) should be active characters in the sense that they are the mouthpieces and the ones doing the actions through which the theme(s) of the story are expressed. That’s why I’ve always been drawn towards character-driven stories, not plot-driven ones (plot-driven ones can work so long as the characters play an active role in DRIVING it forward).
I always though that the protagonist was "trapped" by the theme, in the sense that the story imposed the theme on the characters.
This helps me look at it the other way, as the the coming out of the protagonist's actions.
Both visions together give me a little more leeway between my protagonist's volitional capability and the meaning I see emerging in my story.
I can play with that.
I can figure out if they are at odds or aligned.
And if they're opposed I can experiment with it and see what emerges. Sometimes two motifs that appear to clash end up converging into a deeper theme.
Who runs this channel?
The Interviews are awesome and cut up into single questions that can be seen quickly and digested through the day.
The questions and insights are very useful.
It's quite remarkable.
Whoever you are, thank you.
I realize that instead of thinking of a theme and trying to force the elements of a story to abide by that theme, I should think of the initial theme I set out to do as a guideline, while the actions that the protagonists takes to solve problems and dilemmas will crystalize the true theme of a given story. And by having the theme crystalize by the main character's actions, it will be easier to model other aspects of the story to be consistently in line with this true theme.
Thanks Joaco! We are doing our best, glad you are finding value here.
Figuring out your theme is pretty easy if you know how you want it to end: imagine the opposite. Imagine the story ending in a way that irks you to the core, and then ask why. Your answer is the theme.
Could you mention an example of how to come up with the theme using this method
Mayb using a movie you have watched such as pirates of the caribean dead mans chest or any other movie you prefer
@@vaquezartup365 It's easier to use this exercise on your own work as the whole point is to encourage directed introspection, but suppose Robert Downey Jr's Ironman was never able to "make the sacrifice play." I forget which Marvel movie that is.
@@DaltonKevinMendgame.
@@Drethatboy Please elaborate. You have piqued my curiosity
Fantastic interview. Exactly what I was looking for.
Perfect! Glad this helped Damir!
And another great one!
One of your best interviews.
Another informative, insightful clip.
If people aren't able to take this subject matter with the appropriate gravity it imbues due to a simple copy edit foible then perhaps they need to rethink their motivations.
We appreciate your support Edgar!
@@filmcourage I'm the one getting 99% of the support! Give yourselves a pat on the back hey!
Jeff is brilliant
Very helpful. Thanks!
This is so interesting, thank you.
I think he's got it. I think he knows the theme of this story. Same as the theme for this channel.
What are you talking about Moe? Go ride your motorcycle!
I wish he cited a famous movie as an example. It's always easy to understand when there's an example.
He does reference Tootsie at the end.
The channel You Are Storyteller goes into greater depth of the subject starting with their first video called "The Armature" which is their word for the idea of theme.
Here's an example: in Jaws Brody is only ever able to kill the shark when the boat is sinking and he's firmly in the water staring it down. If you go all the way back to early in the story one of the locals ribs him, "You don't get in the water do you, chief?" In other words Brody has a fear of the water but the only way he can save his people from the tyranny of the shark is by meeting the shark on the shark's own turf. Every other attempt to solve the problem that doesn't involve Brody being in the water fails.
As Brody is swimming to shore he tells Hooper, "You know I used to be afraid of the water." The meaning then -- it's theme, it's armature, or whatever you want to call it -- is that you must face your fears.
McKee has a similar principle with the "controlling idea" and values expressed. It's more value based than protagonist action (but protagonist action expresses values?)
The Controlling Idea must be expressible in a single sentence describing how and why life undergoes change from one condition of existence at the beginning to another at the end. It should be said, that in McKee's controlling idea, the principle doesn't need to be particularly clever - it can be quite basic or straightforward (and for the writing process, not necessarily to pitch the idea). Jeff's example of Tootsie feels like a kind of "hook", if you see what I mean.
Groundhog Day: “Happiness fills our lives when we learn to love unconditionally.”
Dirty Harry movies: “Justice triumphs (Value) when the protagonist is more violent than the criminals (Cause)"
Chinatown or Seven: “Injustice prevails because the antagonist is overwhelmingly ruthless and powerful.”
Jaws: “The courage and genius of humanity will prevail over the hostility of Nature”
@@filmcourage Thanks! I saved this interview on my playlist intending to watch it again because I couldn't finish it at the time when I viewed it. Great to know there's an example. Jeff is one of the most eloquent speakers and I liked the pointer he gave about the actions of the protagonist as the basis for the theme of the movie. I never thought about that. I always thought that the theme must be something philosophical. I sometimes struggled to identify the theme of my story and this interview is definitely a big help. I observed that "What's the theme of your movie?" is one of the top questions during the interviews in film festivals, press conferences, movie promotions etc., and I find it to be a tough question to answer. Gotta buy Jeff Kitchen's book!
@@MiguelCruz-oz7km Thanks! It's clever to use dialogues to convey the theme of the movie as well.
Arcs back to Robert McKee's Controlling Idea as he outlines in Story or Blake Snyder's Thematic Premise as outlined in Save The Cat.
Thank you
I have to admit, theme is the one idea I've had a really hard time grasping. I look up common themes, and I see things like 'love' and 'war'. What if some of the story is about war, and some is about love? What is the overarching theme? I can't grasp how 'war' could even be a theme. If you have a longer story with many characters and situations, could it be possible your story has many themes?
There's a video by a channel called The Closer Look that talks about themes, and in the video the speaker says that thinking of theme as a topic (ie: 'love' and 'war') can be too broad. He says something that may be helpful instead is to think of a theme as a philosophical question. Here's a link to the video if you're interested: ruclips.net/video/JNbrMPXqHDI/видео.htmlsi=0G0in29LwGMmnsX5
What Book does he reference when he quote Price?
Plot is the brain. Dilemma is the heart. Setting are the bones. Style is a lung and tone is the other. Character is the liver. Suspense is the bladder. Theme is the skin.
How do i get to link up with other writers ,producers directors or movie makers.
RUclips "essayists" need to watch this video. I'm tired if them justifying bad movies with "it had a good theme, therefore it's a good moobie."
Sensational insight
13:07 Maybe the word the Jeff was looking for here is permeate rather than infect.
Very well said. My brain just expanded a little bit more lol 🍻
Theme, I think, requires a capacity for philosophy, and philosophy isn't understood by modern writers (the ones churning out this hot garbage), because they don't understand philosophy's purpose: to come as close as possible to what is objectively true or universally timeless. They don't believe in moral objectivity (but they're deadly sure everyone who disagrees with them is an ist of the worst description); so philosophy, to them, is often mistaken for sophistry; with sophistry itself being nothing more than a political weapon. Their politics aren't down stream of their values, they couldn't even tell you what their core values are, beyond platitudes they've been parroting since middle school.
I think a large part of why movies are so abysmal comes down to the fact that philosophy simply isn't *learned* anymore, its affectations are mimed, through sophistry, just enough to be tolerated by an ideologically consolidated source: I'm speaking, of course, of the nationalized academy.
Wish I could favourite this
Yo this is so deep!
nailed it
Well said. I've gradually been coming to the same conclusion.
@@msp5138 Proving their point exactly!
I'm still trying to figure out where I can watch this story about Derek? Good Romance movies anyone?
Regarding "gut level", Jordan Peterson correctly identified that the creative person only senses "I'm on to something here". They can't necessarily articulate it fully, they just know it's potentially valuable to others.
The gut level idea may make sense but nothing that Jordan Peterson has ever said has ever made sense. The man is a crackpot shaman. It amazes me how seemingly intelligent people are taken in by his nonsense.
Lawrence Fleischer I have a lot of disagreements with Peterson myself, specifically when it comes to religion, abortion, having children, animal rights etc. But attempting to outright dismiss everything a given person is saying without being specific, especially in combination with tarnishing their followers by questioning their intelligence, is nothing but the epitome of the ad-hominem fallacy.
@@cosmicprison9819 Ok, I overstated my case. I'll say this: I've never heard Peterson say anything that made sense. Maybe in other videos that I haven't seen he's been the epitome of clarity and rationality. But I have watched dozens of his you tubes and have never heard him say anything that was well thought out and rational. He just babbles on and on with nonsensical arguments. I'll give him credit for one thing, though. He knows a lot of big words. If you have any links to videos where he's been able to articulate anything that is understandable I'd love to see it. Regarding his followers: I'd challenge any of them to describe any of the talks that I have seen in a way that makes sense. I bet they can't.
Lawrence Fleischer Well, that's still kind of a blanket statement, since I have no idea which videos of his you've seen. 😁 I usually don't have trouble understanding what he's on about... doesn't mean I'll agree with his logic... but I can always see where he's coming from. Even though, when it comes to the issue of having children, which he advocates for despite his own frequent acknowledgment that "life is suffering", I'll have to appeal to his personal history in order to explain his mental backflips on that matter.
Steve V Sure, I'm not claiming he reinvented the wheel. He just made the idea accessible to a widespread audience again. Thinkers from ancient Greece kind of have a hard time spreading their ideas on RUclips in person; they need modern mouthpieces who've read their books, understood them, and are capable of conveying them to laypeople, even if that means in a simplified form with easier-to-understand language.
permeates
Who is Price, as quoted by Kitchen? Thanks for your replies:)
The books may be hard to find. Here's is what Jeff wrote to a commenter previously, "Price wrote two advanced books on dramatic technique, The Analysis of Plot Construction and Dramatic Principle (1908), and The Philosophy of Dramatic Principle and Method"
I think I get what this guy said but I wish he was able to distill it down to something that an average person could understand.
What if you have a horror story, that is romantic, with some funny or action moment,,, that is more then one genre/theme, what do you call that?
This is hard for me to stomach because I have an elegant theme which I constructed for a series of multiple novels... It's not fitting well and I'm at a place where I'll have to rework things. I can see it 50% into my first draft, and I am still hell bent on finishing this first draft. 😩
Damn, this was helpful.
3:12 - 3:28 Why does it sound so much like the end of MY story??? 😅 The only difference is, there's a realization of these things but the "escape from a trap" is still questionable...
"What writer's get wrong"
Mistaking a contraction for a plural.
I kept my theme out of my logline….. is that a mistake in this business?
According to the Pitch Meeting videos on RUclips, a lot.
I love videos like these. 14 Minutes and 41 seconds and NO DEFINITION...
"The way in which the protagonist resolves the dilemma expresses the theme of the story" is not a definition. It's a commentary about where you might be able to find the theme.
Theme: Your (the author, storyteller) proclamation of what you believe is the Proper way to live.
Now, how is "Love conquers all" the Theme of ROMEO & JULIET? How is "Love conquers all" Will's proclamation of his belief about the proper way to live? That story shows that Love indeed does not conquer all. But as a cautionary tale, perhaps Shakespeare is saying that the problem is not love but petty rivalries. Love did conquer those rivalries as far as Rome and Juliet were concerned. Why not for the Montagues and the Capulets? Ultimately, these two lovers do bring the Montagues and Capulets together in tragedy.
Given that everything in your story is a variation on your Theme, an argument for and against it, it should be fairly clear what your Theme is as you're writing. Yes, sit with it and let it evolve, by all means.
But it's a lot simpler than 14 minutes would suggest.
What are notable Themes?
TITANIC: Live your life authentically, even at the risk of dying, because the alternative is to already be dead inside, no matter how long you may live.
STAR WARS: The spiritual path is better than the mechanistic.
HEAT: Never have something in your life that you can't drop in 30 seconds flat when the heat is around the corner.
ALIEN: The universe does not care.
ALIENS: The maternal instinct is what makes us human.
ALIEN: ROMULUS: What is the greater good.
THE WIZARD OF OZ: There's no place like home or You already had what you're looking for.
Your Theme may sound backwards, or ironic. As long as it allows your characters and your story to slug it out around that one issue, it's a good Theme.
Question: what if your story is about revenge, but at the end your character decides to forgive? Is your story theme revenge or forgiveness?
Is it revenge and forgiveness?
I would say it depends on what happens and the evens that lead the protagonist to forgive. It might be the theme of letting go of anger, moving on from grief, empathy for the enemy or there’s something more important. All depends on how you shape it. :)
The theme is the interstitium that holds the different parts of the story together. ruclips.net/video/GZNQVRxkHJI/видео.html
If someone recommends a movie i ask "tell me what it is about without mentioning any fictional characters places or events." If this cant be done in a concise way, the movie probably isnt worth watching. Movies that dont follow this rule tend to be disorganized, disjointed, rambling stream of consciousness pieces. The writer(s) should build a movie from a single granular idea, not brainstorm ways to fill 90-120 minutes with content.
Only watching movies that follow a criteria is a good way to see a lot of the same shitty movie. Bad movies can teach just as much and be just as entertaining as a masterpiece - depends on the viewer.
Ex: The Room. I studied it in film school, find it incredibly entertaining and it’s one of the worst movies you’ll ever watch.
@@briangill23 i haven't seen it. I've seen room about the girl who was abducted with her mom and lived in a storage shed but not the room. Actually room was a very good movie and it follows the criteria beautifully. It's about our perspective and reality and asks probing questions about what we can imagine about what we haven't seen. The storage shed is a metaphor for our lived experience. The little girl has a hard time imagining that there is a world outside of the storage shed where she has lived her whole life. That's a granular idea and the movie doesn't stray far from it.
Putting apostrophes where they don't belong??
Came here for this exact comment.
W'hat do you mean?
@@AERallert the title has an incorrect use of an apostrophe.
But surely every word that end's with an "s" demand's an apostrophe? It's the rule's ;)
Rule#1 your the protagonist to your story
Rule#2 everyone else thinks there the protagonist of their story
Attention, Copy Editor's!
🤣🤣🤣
what if the protagonist doesnt solve the dilemma?
I find my character losing interest and purpose, such as a killer that begins to drag out through the story.
Basically shout out to all modern female protag adaptation shows where screaming the message of sjw and feminism from the get go.
Honestly, do you even need a theme? It seems like the individual audience members make up their own and believe it because of the death-of-the-author nonsense. See e.g. Ray Bradbury finally storming out of a lecture he was giving because nobody could understand that _Fahrenheit 451_ wasn't about censorship.
Themes can sometimes be subtle things. And I think if an author has tapped into the creative unconscious in their work, the theme will transcend the author's conscious intent. The author may not even fully understand the meaning of their own work.
@@gloryrobinson8000 Isn't that just anthropomorphizing randomness?
Intelectual mumbo jumbo: Red riding hood. Theme: Kids, be safe. How did the protagonist resolve the "dilemma"? By getting eaten? Or isn't red riding hood a good story? So much bad advice that makes writing impossible.
Not a writer but resolution is a decision by the protagonist. The resolution can be a mistake too. But you're sort of right, sometimes protagonists can be victims and not have any sort of decision to deal with their dilemma. I feel like a better way of wording the advice would be to "look for how the protagonist reacts to the dilemma" instead.
Guys. Guys guys guys. It’s difficult to take this subject matter with the appropriate gravity when your title is completely grammatically incorrect. *WRITERS* - the plural form of writer, not the singular possessive, is what you’re looking for 😑😑😑😑😑
He has some interesting ideas on writing but I'll never get over him throwing Jack Slater's son off a roof. He should be in jail!
This comment section is filled with bots
Thanks for the heads up but we are not seeing any bots.
Why do people choose ORGANICALLY over NATURALLY all time now??
Its such an annoying word!!
This guy seems to be completely confused. He has a hard time speaking in complete sentences. And he doesn't give any real good examples.
I'm not sure he knows what "theme" is.
Hopefully, he's a much better writer than lecturer.
I coudn't find a thing on IMDB the guy ever made. He is only mentionned once as a special thanks for a film that got 6.5/10. Be aware of screenwriter gurus who never made anything.
Correction; never made anything THAT GOT PICKED UP. Then again, somebody greenlit a movie called “Deadly DILF” so obviously being a good screenwriter doesn’t necessarily equate to being the most successful. Lots of trash gets made and lots of perfectly good scripts never do. Tis the industry.
💡👏