Why ATGMs Are Terrible Right Now (In War Thunder)
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- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2023
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Игры
A lot of missiles also start uncontrollably oscillating at the slightest movement of the sight even in test drives, which looks eerily like incorrect PID controller values. The missile physics were remade effectively from scratch so the old values have likely become completely incorrect and need to be recalibrated, which takes a lot of trial and error, and we all know how much Gaijin love to add/change stuff first and make it actually work later. AIM-9Ls had suffered from similar PID value issues (though they just overcorrected instead of oscillating) between their addition for the AH-1Z and several months after the A-10A release, and R-60s at one point suffered from these same exact oscillations at longer ranges.
Came here to see if someone else had the same thought as me. Really looks like an overcorrection / critically damping problem, which gives the missiles an oscillating motion.
I guess nobody at Gaijin ever took Vibrations and Control Systems. This looks like a badly smoothed transfer function for the control system.
lmao i thought about that too !
AFT-09 is almost unusable at the moment, the missile dives down at least 3 feet when fired, bounces back up to the cursor and keeps trying to correct itself the whole way causing wildly inaccurate shots. XM975 also got extremely nerfed, the missile turns like a bus now.
The Roland 2 and 3 missiles are extremely sluggish right now. Hitting anything that isn't slow and/or flying straight is extremely hard. If a target is fast and defending, forget hitting it all together. At least ADATS didn't get slaughtered, even if it kinds just stops trying to hit agile targets past 6km.
Try playing IT-1 and bmp-1 its unplayable
MEPHISTO experiences the same issues. It’s extremely annoying to have the ATGM drop down that much
You didn't hear about the Wiesel 1a2
The big question is did the developers have any response to this ? Bcuz it seems like no one is talking about this
This is the effect of ping. There is no ping/lag effect on test drives. Atgm have always been effected by ping as are air to air missiles.
His ping is only 40to50, often played on western servers and had a ping of up to 200, but I didn’t notice such a problem, there were hit misses, incorrect display of tank turrets, but no problems with ATGMs.
@@CrazyIvan2142 Are You for real? Your ping is Your ping and then You are forced to play against someone with 700ping and You cant do anything about it because gaijin is content with pushing people out of ques into matches and will just mask the effects of crazy high latency of other players by server sided smoothing and will call the hit detection issues on You and Your skill. Your 40 to 50 only means that the guy shooting You is getting the preety much pure target with stable data and You have to play the guestimation game. Ghostshells, "sparks" all of it because we are forced to play with players who chose all servers because they are too lazy to wait for a minute or too selfish and too ignorant to care about Your experience. Latency counter was a normal thing at the advent of online gaming when it was harder to obtain the stable connection but nowadays they are mostly unavailable in games because some snowflakes wouldnt be able to stand the fact that their selfishness is the known cause of others being screwed and ofcourse ramming players into matches is much more sought out in the generation of instant gratification kiddos.
@@eldarguardian6485 what are you smoking? High ping only makes it worse for the person with this issue. There's no difference for you when you see a player who has 20ms or 700ms ping. Only connection between YOUR game and the server can cause issues like ghost shells and teleporting players.
@@user-ooooooooooooooo "High ping only makes it worse for the person with this issue" lol "what are you smoking?"
@@eldarguardian6485 There's no way other person's ping can affect you because all computations are performed on the server, and there's no ping compensation in the game.
I like to mention that oslation appears to be more then a vehicle in movement... So hitting anything is stupid hard now.
Even the BMP-2M is affected with the missiles not being fired from the centre.
Biggest issue is that i need very long range for the missiles to stabilise, if not i cant even try and aim the atgm because it just wobbles back and forth so i usually need 4 to kill and mbt.
I can answer this: most FPS games use interpolation on the server side. It predicts the movement of any entity (local or network) in the game.
If your ping is lower then the prediction is more accurate, so the game feeling is smoother. Additionally, another factor is data rate, as far as you send more data in the same unit of time and receive it from the server, the game feeling is smoother.
You can't affect on datarate (depends on the internal settings/configuration of a game for client and server), you will be able only to improve connection by changing your ISP.
The network is an un-management thing from a code perspective (game, server). You cannot affect It because it is not on your side, it is managed by your ISP and other ISPs based on contracts.
And depends on connection stabilization like high ping or jitter.
Another problem is implementation (it is hard to do it), maybe Gaijin will be able to improve it, idk.
The missle sometimes knows where it is, it only knows this when the server screams at it. The server knows to scream at it when it knows the missle is not where it should be, but the server does not know where it should not be, so it does not know when to scream. By subtracting when the server should scream vs when it should not, it gets random noise, this causes the missle to move in random directions at random times, causing the missle to sometimes know where it is.
Edit: This also reminds me of how the TOWs are in the RHS mod for arma 3, they barely move, you have to move the cursor a lot to get them to turn, making it insanely difficult to hit anything.
Yeah I've noticed the new flight dynamics on ATGMs are really lagging behind the operators inputs. I don't know if they was done deliberate as a balance pass or if it's just a bug.
It's not lagging behind. It's because on the server, the ATGM can not interpolate to the precision that it can on client (like in the test drive)
Missed you man, love the vids.
Great efforts .. thanks Bruce 👍
Its not just this, default angling all launchers to have ≈+10 degrees elevation (which no one asked for) makes it soo that missiles that only control after some time go too far above the reticle and then way overcompensate by slamming into the ground.
Also, russian vehicles like always seem to be least negatively affected by this fysics update and the TOWs (except for top attack tow2Bs) feel unplayable. Long range still targets are easy, but anything under 400m or anything thats moving is a 50/50 at best.
Ive checked with the IT-1 and BMP2m, both are radar controlled and have no issues, the missiles dont overcompensate and have much faster responsiveness to changes in flightpath.
It seems stupid to me that a missile which takes its instructions by wire like a tow is much less responsive than one that takes it from signals transmitted through the air.
Laser beam riding, not radar controlled. They still guide differently than earlier and are nowhere near as good
This might have been a thing on heli PvE before but now its a problem everywhere
Oh shit, you are right, it was a problem on heli PVE if I remember correctly
I remember when the type 60 came out and it was broken for a while, atgm's always seem to work fine in test drive. Then you get in game and it was broken as hell.
This is exactly what I thought was going on the BMP-2M 9m113's just fly out of the tube like a musket and anything within 100 meters it struggles to hit, it fly wildly from left to right and oscillates back and forth so I think gaijn broke ATGM's as they used to not act like this.
My complaint is with the BMP 1 and 2, for me it’s horrible and it just sucks to try and fire up a mountain or something similar.
Especially the BMP-1P not only it has the issue mentioned in the video, it also has a crappy flight path, especially during its initial launch - stabilise path. At around 50ish meters, the missile will dip very far down (seems to be hardcoded, happens 100% of time, even when mouse is not moving) and that dip makes you overcompensate, then the in-video issue kicks in. Far away targets are impossible to hit because of the increment issues, while close range targets are unhittable because of the hardcoded dip. 9/10 times, youll hit the ground in front of the target since the new update. BMP2M doesnt have the dip issue but does have the increments issue
bruh, this is the smallest problem with them now. In some tanks you hit the ground in front of you, so you've got to fire them up
what a fantastic video. very clearly demonstrates the issue
What sucks the worst is how fucking awful they control and respond, ontop of TOW missiles not only newly having proper modeling of the guiding wire, but the fact that gaijin still thinks magic russian redeyes can spoof the controls of and wire guided atgms. And yes they love to randomly flop around at longer ranges and with the overpressure practically being removed from them, it took my 3 direct hits to an M901 to (still) not kill it with a HOT german atgm. Some missles also just decide to drop dead after being launched. With the upgraded BMP-1 atgm everytime i tried launching in test drive there can be ZERO terrain incline in front of you or the missile will drop dead into the ground.
apparantly some of italy's HE/tow 2B missles have the old physics and functions perfectly fine LOL
A Month and gaijin still haven't addressed this. also having ATGM loaded on the m60a2 but setting your HEAT as the ready round will make the ATGM dip into the ground with no control...everytime.
Very informative, and makes perfectly sense. Thank you o7
Even though this is a game, flight path error may be calculated using a pid controller because input is crosshair position and output is atgm attitude (not the same dof environments). It is not easy to get pid controller to work right. In here it behaves like too much p gain and not enough damping causing oscillations. Maybe a developer changed values a bit too much. Then again, i' a mechanical engineer so i don't know coding works. 🤓
PID Controller + Lag = This. You are correct my guy. I had to use a PID controller for a project in college to get a Roomba to follow a wall and if you aren't careful and account for everything you'll get weird oscillations like this, and that's with the code running locally. Have a PID controller working over a network? Nty.
why nobody is talking about it? cause Gaijin made an oppressed community that doesn't talk about existing/game breaking bugs and instead they complain about how a tank should be and not be and leak documents, cause they are scared, for some reason
I am a main bradley and a i feel weird since update 😢, aprecciate the video man
Roland’s are completely unusable now because of oscillation.
Also some tow launcher tanks like the m11 tow the sights are not centered yet are to the side instead on the center of the circle
They need to fix this asap....
They mess up every ATGM vehicle
TOW-2’s aren’t quite the *worst* since they are semi-usable, but every TOW-1 is now virtually useless after this update because one little movement and the missile is completely lost, it’s especially frustrating not only cuz I can’t utilize my UH-1C anymore but also cuz gaijin tries to justify it by saying it effects “all” missiles
I had the same issue, i noticed it on the ADATs, the missiles Jitter and Jump side to side instantly around the cursor, I made a forum post about it a few days ago, hopefully itll get fixed, makes the ADATs unusable as a tank destroyer, which of course its classed at with a higher SP cost to go with it....
Apparently I cant post links to the bug report here but its the new forum address /issues/p/warthunder/i/P7F2hpzAZ1i3
atm, im enjoying the swingfire system, as its still running on the old system and is hilariously accurate. which surprises me quite a bit. so the BAe Swingfire system is the only one that is fine atm
Same with SAMS like Roland. It has made them almost useless, along with the fact they suck at turning now too so if the target isn't flying straight at you the missile tends to lag behind the jet or overcorrect and fly in front of the jet.
Now this is just a layman's theory, maybe the wire guided missile does the same that the beam riding missiles do, where they move in a spiral along the laser to avoid blocking the targeting laser? And for some reason despite being wire guided it mimics this behavior when it comes to movement?
@@CrazyIvan2142 That makes sense, I have had some weird issues with who shots first and who dies when it comes to ping. Myself I usually play at 40-50 ping, don't think I can get it any lower without hardware/setup modification and living closer to the server.
@@INSANESUICIDE I'm sorry, I made a mistake and wrote to you, although I wanted to write to the guy who explained the lag with a high ping
@@CrazyIvan2142 servers are whack this is a well known gaijin issue, so it could be that, you ain't wrong and I ain't bothered by you sending the message to me by accident hehe, have a good day buddy!
Nah, shot a few TOWs in real life and that is not how they behave at all. You can keep directly on center mass (no aiming in front needed, if target is moving) Flight tunnel (ocilation) is 1m no matter if its 1000m or 3500m.
@@RafA-hr5bo I mean ingame accounting for lag etc as an explanation for it behaving oddly
huh I've had no issue with the RBS 53 on the first swedish atgm vehicle, i noticed it moved a lot but like 90% of the time moved in a way that would still hit the target.
same for helis & Co
nice gajin
Biggest pet peeve about the ATM's at the moment is how I only have four on my bmp-1 and out of the four only one of them might hit its Target most of them slim straight into the ground or just do some crazy ass shit and it gets me killed a fuck ton
They shouldn't have changed it because now it is just an inconsistent mess. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
no wonder my atgms have felt so wonky
The HKP3C is not so fun anymore, I used to go middle of the map and start blasting everywhere
Again with the Perfect Dark OST, very based of you. PD's OST is so good.
I think it has to do with a network reason that would make most sense.
Yeah they "fixed" the fly physics...the TOW 2A of my Wiesel often hits the ground before me while i'm aiming straight...and it's almost impossible to hit a fast moving jet with the Roland 3 of my FlaRakPz1....
Ever since Sons of Attila, the Starstreak missiles on the Stormer HVM and the British Apache have been broken to the point of being nearly unusable. They consistently pass straight through aircraft. Mostly planes, but sometimes even helicopters, especially if they're moving fast. The Starstreak and its guidance system are in need of a buff as well. The guidance system, though semi-automatic, are supposed to at least generate a lead indicator for the operator to guide the missile to its target more reliably and more efficiently. In the helicopter in particular, it almost needs the Starstreak to lead the target automatically to hit a plane, especially when getting a direct hit with them is so much harder than it should be due to the bug Gaijin still hasn't fixed yet. For now, it's only useful against light vehicles and helicopters because they usually ghost through planes. The next time I have time, I'm planning to report the problem in the forums. I just don't know how. There was a patch not too long ago where they claimed to have fixed the problem of missile locations being different between the client and the server, but it didn't fix the Starstreak.
I see, i knew it felt off when i tested it in Test Drive but felt weird and different in Live matches
I was noticing the same issue but I think I also found another one. For some reason in the LOSAT (idk if it does this in any other vehicle) if you try to shoot a target that is at 3000m, the missile guides itself. Not even joking. No matter where you put the crosshair on the enemy tank, the missile itself will always guide for center mass. Even if you aim for the right track, the missile will hit the breech 10/10 times. For some reason it seems Gaijin has made it so that the missile "recognizes" when your crosshairs are on a target and tries to assist with your aiming. In practice though, it's actually a nerf because you can only aim for barrel/breech which usually eats the missile. It doesn't seem to happen at close ranges but it did at 3000m.
Very good
Have you seen a vikhrs in real life? there is video of it targeting a bradley and it hella moving everywhere like that
I have not.
Vikhr are design that way, it supposed to be rotating on its laser axis, it do a barrel roll until it hit the target
Struggling with this and in the Bradleys, on top of what was said in the video, half the time the ATGMs will just hit the ground Infront of me without any depression, has gotten me killed like 100 times now.
I don’t know if it’s because of my internet (I play in 2 different locations, one having mid-poor internet tho), or simply the missiles, but the SS11, and the different HOT missiles are pretty fine on my side. I just have issues on the mephisto where the missiles will first deep almost to the ground when fireing them causing them to often hit the ground, or low obstacles near the vehicle, which is extremely annoying, and does not happen in any other vehicle I’ve tried (apparently the Chinese mephisto has that issue as well)
Another problem I have been experiencing, if I get a battle trophy and win silver lions, i will not receive those silver lions. Though if I win anything else in the battle trophy, i will receive that.
Anyone else have this problem?
I shot an abrams with an atgm from the T-90A and it did absolutely nothing to it. No hit indicator, no damage, nothing. Idk if the guy was cheating or what
Are helicopters affected by this as well?
I hope so, because Shturm's goving me headache since the update. I couldn't quite make it out what the problem is, because I was focusing on hitting the target, but now as I watch this video... makes sense.
I tested it with a ka-50, and I didn't encounter this peoblem, and it has a 120x zoom and a missile with 3X the range.
Yes. Wire Guided Heli ATGM's like the AGM-22's are effected.
Same for German tanks like wiesel..... and the first seconds in flight the missle is kinda unresponsive
i had mine just fly in a direction and not even respond to my commands. this system is dogshit and they should revert the changes
in heli pve u gonna see how it is if u use missile with SACLOS guidance at the start of the match it normal but match nearly end u wont be aim anything if u arent point directly at target i try it on AS.11 and tow i think server is ping and make missile react too slow
You're gonna need to re-type that if you want me understand what you are talking about.
This looks like massive latency compensation. Likely those tiny adjustments are delayed, then you overcompensate, it overcompensates, then you overcompensate to reverse it, and boom you miss.
Doesn't look right to me.
My ping is 50 and my PL is 0. I don't think it is latency. Plus, if it was latency, the wiggles I made with the sight would have happened in the custom battle.
@@BruceLeeroy94 None of this makes sense.
There's no constant I can think of why its only occurring in a live match.
However, this DOES answer some questions I had related to ATGMs this patch. Makes me wonder if the Spike missiles have a similar issue. I remember some Dev server footage showing a massive discrepancy in effectiveness between Test drive and Live Match.
Clearly something is broken here. I wonder if this applies to SPAA, IR and Radar Missiles, and other player guided munitions.
@@JamuelTalks Did you watch the whole video? I think I might have badly explained this issue if so.
Basically, on the sever side, the ATGM rides a line, but that line can not be moved over in small incriments. Only large ones. This means, at farther distances, the distance the ATGM "jumps" when making any kind of correction is so large that it induces oscillation, and with extra player input, makes it impossible to consistently hit a target more than 1 km away.
@@BruceLeeroy94 I did. I just can't figure out for the life of me potentially why its doing what its doing. And why it only occurs where its doing it.
Unless for whatever reason this is a "Soft nerf" to reign in how lethal ATGMs can be. And if so.. WOW
Honestly this made playing aircraft bearable, but the Pansir is still op as shit. But overall I think they need to fix the issues with ATGMs in general and give some proper counter play for aircraft to spaa.
Well, F-4Cs aren't really equipped to deal with rolands and 2S6s. Tanks are very compressed. More so than aircraft.
@@BruceLeeroy94 yeah you’re right, it’s honestly pretty pitiful the state of air to ground and surface to air play is. But maybe there’s no practical way to fix it.
@@hiphip4808 it is really rough, especially in ground 9-10.0 because if a A6E Tram is on the field and there is no AA capable of reaching out to touch it, then the paveways will steamroll the enemy team. With sweden and germany I have no AA that can do anything about the A6E if he plays it right below 10.0 at 10.3 I get Roland which can deal with it.
It reminds me of constantly getting clapped ny the KA50 in my helpless Ozelot 😂
Have you tried other vehicles, specifically those that don't have the wired atgms like the bradley does, maybe it's because of that??
I tried the m551 and it did the same thing, but that's also a wire guided missile.
I did it with the ka-50 in a custom battle, and I didn't have this issue. I can do more tests though.
Can’t use my zt3a2 African thingy due to how wobbly the missle is
Isn't the threshold the size of the laser cone that was described by gaijin ?
And the inability to do it in test drive is because of the server refresh rate, while test drive is local
I am unsure. I haven't heard about this.
@@BruceLeeroy94 Basically the laser designator projects a cone wide enough to give the general direction to the missile when it is launched, and then tightens as the missile moves to the target to give it more accuracy, that's also why we can't launch several missiles in a row except if they are very close together.
It's just a theory, hopefully it will be fixed or explained, because hitting a tank is hard, imagine hitting a plane flying at supersonic speed :(
No it has nothing to do with the realism of how it should be, it's a damn bug and should be fixed. best footage to compare it to is the ATGMs shot on video in Syria (RUclips "Tow hunter Syria") and see for your self..!
upl when u can bro life comes first
They ruined the most fun thing for me 😭
Honestly, I have never encountered that issue. I played a lot of ATGMs.
Maybe it is a controler issue? I only play on mouse + keyboard
I aim with both a mouse and controller in this video.
Honestly, this kills the usability of ATGMs. They should revert it back and just have the cable. The TOW missile was the only redeeming thing of the bradley in this game.
I played a match after 2-3 months and was shocked.. atgms suck now tbh.
That’s a nerf on purpose
i don't know how missiles are supposed to move in real life, smoothly like in the test drive or it actually swings left and right when at far range like that in real life. and also i haven't reach the point in game were have a vehicle with atgm, but i know it must be annoying and it must be fixed
Gameplay>Realism.
@@frosty848 yes
I absolutely LOATH this bug, it makes anything with an ATGM basically useless at range which is where they should absolutely shine. GAIJIN FIX IT ALREADY.
Wtf, that's pretty odd...
Hope a bug report was made.
Wiesel is also Fked
does not help that Gaijins servers are absolute Trash
It's the same damn problem in Anti-Air missiles it's so bad you can't hit anything with missiles anymore... Please use your voice to make gaijin fix it.. Also try the Tunguska to see how bad it is now totally useless..! :(
I have sent this to Gaijin in the CC discord. If they didn't know, they know now :)
Thank you sir.
Good to see missiles are getting balanced
ATGMs are a mess right now that's for sure. The move to realistic rocket movement is good but there's been something lost in the implementation but I believe it's fixable. Also the Perfect Dark music made me sad with nostalgia. What a great time of my life.
Yeah it basically makrs them unusable. The russian lT-1 is just awful now
The rolands are ruined
krill issue
🐟
They should just revert all ATGM changes. "muh realism". WHO CARES?? Its a video game. You think you can replace an entire tank engine in 30 seconds while under fire??
Honestly. if they want there realism put in random break downs and not being able to repair your tracks in middle of battle. Fuel and such. and watch there tune change fast
They fkng suck, at least Russian ones are unusable, on bmp1, 2, mi4 and other ones
resuming : because this "new war thunder" that lately gaijin has been updating is dogshit and that's it can cry replying to my coment but its just the truth. the game died on boats launch and p2w
'PromoSM'
bro atgms wasn't even OP WTF is gaijin doing?
oh i know REALISIM :/
realisim for a video game
its not simulator game GAIJIN ITS NOT
stop making sense everything
I don't believe this was intentional. I believe this was some sort of accident.
@@BruceLeeroy94 I use BMP-2M and I guarantee on this cancerous vehicle ATGM is not that powerful! If you hit a turret it's very likely it won't do anything. Even side shots result in only critical hits instead of being direct OHK. And everyone boasts about how it's a powerful vehicle which it is not if you don't have APFSDS and getting to that point takes a lot of time. It's absolutely one of the best for flanking when used properly, but nowhere near as powerful as other IFVs.
russian bias as always my dude