@@billtree52 As far as I know it was first used in the Walther PP Super - 9x18 Ultra. Walther was trying to push what could be done with a blowback pistol for police use. Used a 380 caliber weight bullet 95 grains I believe, traveling at close to 9mm Parabellum speeds. Had a very sharp recoil due to the blowback operation. Was expensive to shoot as no reload ammo was available. The Walther was very nicely made. Believe the early Walther prototypes are where the Makarov caliber came from.
At first, they named it "9 mm Police", when it came out, back in the mid 1970s, together with the larger, locked breech P220. The actual bullet diameter is slightly smaller than that of the Makarov.
I had to do a double take myself. Didn't know if it was my weirdo brain or Ian's weirdo brain. While I am cleared in this instance, it's just a drop against the ocean of times where I am at fault. Lol!
There is an excellent Kurosawa film called Stray Dog about the search for a pistol that was stolen from a police officer. The pistol was a Colt Vest Pocket .25. The film gun was the deadliest .25 that ever existed.
@@jtilton5 Indeed. I have also argued that it was the origin of the buddy cop movie. Young, inexperienced, headstrong officer (ex-military of course) paired with older, wiser officer.
@@rangerlongshot I have seen this, and think it's very good. I like the outdoor scenes and the travel through the city at that time. I found it interesting compared it to a police themed film made here in the UK at the same time called 'The Blue Lamp' which has views of post-war London.
The international audience would be very interested in hearing about your experiences, maybe there are Japanese memoirs, but I'm not aware of anything in English about modern Japanese police experiences.
It should be noted according to Japanese law, the P230JP can only be loaded with five rounds like the revolver unless authorized.(Reloads are not issued which really destroys any advantage the p230jp has) In addition, it is not the only semi-auto pistol used by Japanese police. 9mm pistols are considered a "Special Pistol" and are usually only used by specialist units or departments expected to deal with heavily armed and dangerous subjects, for example the S&W 3913 pistol(originally designated for the Organized Crime Control Bureau but relegated to the Anti-Firearms Squads), Special Investigation Teams (Assorted variants of Beretta 92s), Riot Police (HKSFP9 for special events like the Olympics, which was why it was bought), Public Security (Rumoured to be HK USP, likely 9mm compact), SP bodyguards (HK P2000) and the Special Assault Teams (P226). There are notable exceptions however, a patrol officer of the Nara Prefectural Police was shown to be issued the 3913 and a P2000 was issued to another patrol officer of Aichi Prefectural Police during inspection. An MPD officer was photographed having a holstered Glock 17 Gen 5 during the Olympics, causing a stir amongst the Japanese. Interestingly, there are records showing that WW2 1911a1s are used by patrol officers and detectives till the 80s, but they are not well liked due to being too bulky and having heavy recoil. P.S.: Right after WW2, Japanese police was disarmed but quickly rearmed due to poor public order. The S&W 1917 is the main revolver issued to Japanese police until 1970s, which may be the reason why they still choose to use S&W revolvers to this day. S&W M36 are also issued to the predecessor unit of the Special Assault Team along with the HK P9S and one was stolen from the Osaka Prefectural Police which was used on an attempted assassination on then President of ROK Park Chung-hee alongside with a New Nambu M60. The pistols used by Japanese police post-war is a mix of many models and WW2 surplus which is why they decided to produce their own pistol, the aforementioned New Nambu M60. That said, it never managed to fully replace all surplus pistols and they themselves are beginning to be replaced as well.
You know, if Ian ever got the chance, I'd love to see a video on the New Nambu M60, a "modern" police revolver which itself has an interesting story of it's own to tell.
I was going to an armorers course at S&W about 20 years ago when they were filling the order for those M60 revolvers. They were just as you would imagine. A 2 1/2 inch Chief Special. They had a matte finish and a lanyard ring on the butt. There were pallets of them, shrink wrapped in plastic, waiting to be shipped. As I recall, the contract was for 40 thousand guns and parts. I’m not sure how many they delivered but I saw at least several thousand of them boxed up and ready to go when I was there. Knowing the Japanese, I doubt any will ever show up at gun shows.
Lovely well built little pistol. I just checked mine (not Japan police model) and I've got the W. Germany slide - never noticed that before until today!
@keegantripp1245 they aren't as nice as you think. They are just quirky like the 64 has a charging handle facing straight up. The type 89 is like a Daewoo with a permanent bipod...
@@Drownedinblood The K2 is also cool. This era/style of service rifle is my favourite, with stuff like these, the HK33, FNC, AR-18, SG 550, Galil, SR 88, etc.
The revolver is so iconic to Japanese policing that Patlabor has them for the mecha (chambered in 37-42mm), in spite of a hand-held weapon like that making little sense. Indeed one scene of tension in the first film is the protagonist going up an elevator, and taking the opportunity to disembark and reload the thing from stowage in the side of the calf.
It makes sense as police mechs aren't military in nature and needs to _look_ friendly in front of the public, the most they are gonna shoot at is rampaging bots or light vehicles so handheld shotguns and revolvers made complete sense. Only the military mechs has arm-mounted rotary guns, FLIR camera and removal of the "head" in place of a more armored cockpit because it's simply not needed.
That might explain why most of the characters in Killer7 - weird, cult video game - had revolvers. Including a twelve-shot revolver with two barrels, one on top of the other.
They also had shotguns they could be issued if they needed actual firepower (in at least one of the continuities), plus shotguns in the cockpits for dismounting and arresting potentially violent drivers. If you want to watch Patlabor, start with the original OVAs, then proceed to: (A) then movies if you want darker or (B) the TV series if you want lighter.
It's my understanding that the label "Made in West Germany" was used for several years after reunification. This was due to manufacturers in the West wanting to continue to differentiate themselves from what was seen as lower-quality manufacturers in the East.
Which was a bit dishonest, given that the relatively few East German firms that survived reunification were making high quality products that were able to compete with Western competition. Carl Zeiss Jena comes to mind. It was only a small minority of firms though due to the abhorrent mismanagement of both the entire East German economy and most companies under Communist rule. That said, engineers and factory workers of companies that didn't survive (as well as scientists working in STEM fields at East German universities - not the people teaching Marxism) were usually well-trained enough that they could be relatively quickly retrained to work for Western or newly formed companies (and the new research landscape in case of scientists). The best example for this is the "German Silicon Valley" in Saxony, which emerged from the ashes of the largely unsuccessful computer manufacturers that were unified under the Robotron label. Their products were awful and had no chance on the free market, but they had world-class talent that was able to adopt to new conditions with relative ease. It was the same with the East German car industry.
I have a 2000 Porsche Boxster with a coolant reservoir cap that says West Germany. Pelican Parts says the part number is 996-106-447-04-M8, and is black, and implies not Porsche. Porsche labeled version is blue (blau) 996-106-447-04-M10. The 996 (5th gen 911) was manufactured 1997 to 2006. It is clearly not the same as 944/968 cap. So maybe knockoff manufacturers felt the need to puff the product with West Germany. Just more useless data that you can't forget now 🙂
guten tag - german here - after reunification that „west“ disappeared, because there was no longer a country with that name, hence no juridical reason to do so. maybe some factories were slow to implement it in their machining, but the reasoning that west german products wanted to distinguish themselves from their eastern „rivals“ is unfounded, as there was no competition in virtually all products manufactured, as the east was at that point in history behind on most things in technology, with the exception of Carl Zeiss at least.. adding to this, the majority of eastern manufacturers closed up shop very quickly or were bought out by former western germany companies, which led to a variety of internal societal issues and inequality in germany that are not completely resolved to this day.
The fact that the Japanese police never needed to be heavily armed in the past was due to the Japanese organized crime refraining (for the most part) from using firearms. Both to limit collateral damage and to avoid crackdowns and an arms race with the police. There were a few high profile assassnations of course, but virtually no general gun violence.
@@Drownedinbloodsomewhere being a series of islands have never stopped anyone from smuggling in guns. Indonesia and the Phillipines comes to mind. This isnt the 1800s anymore, smugglers dare, could and has brought in heavy crates filled with guns inside wooden fishing boats. Some would say its a lot easier than dealing with customs and immigration checkpoint as they could just make landfall at some random bumfuck village and no one would care
I had a P232 and it was a large .380 ACP, but a very comfortable and accurate one. I parted with it for a Walther PPK which helped pay for my wedding when it was sold. I regret losing both pistols.
@@paidwitness797 Yes, but she's cost me a lot more since I married her. Still, you have to given an investment time to mature and realize its true value. 15 years so far.
Great little carry gun, I have a 1988 380ACP model , my first handgun purchase, has served me well and hits where it's pointed. Mine was imported by SIG when they were in Herndon, VA before the move to Exeter, NH.
These were imported by Sig Arms and sold through William's Shooters Supply many years ago as contract overruns. I actually bought one and still have it. The safety is opposite and cannot be used unless the hammer is down. The lanyard loop was only on these contract models. One BIG drawback is there is NO external slide stop (like all P230/P232 models) so if you ever get a double feed you can't lock the slide back making clearing a jam more difficult.
Ah dang it, dude! Ive been trying to find one of these and here goes Ian giving these the "Forgotten Weapons Bump" by telling everyone about them. Great video and keep up the great work!
Most Japanese police officers end their carrer without shooting in duty. And once a police officer shoots in duty, it becomes a news all over Japan. Shootings by criminals and police officers are both rare. As a result, Japanese police department doesn't need powerful 9mm and complicated short recoil pistols.
Exactly this... The video awhile back of that idiot cop mag-dumping twice into his own cruiser over an acorn is probably more bullets than the average entire Japanese police department will fire off in the line of duty over the course of several years. There's just no possible comparison. In 25 years less than 500 gun homicides in Japan. The USA had more than that within the first 6 days of this year. The differences are just so extreme that most Americans really can't quite grasp it. Seeing half a dozen squad cars and police in full gear with rifles near some house or building in the US isn't even an out of place sight. If people in Japan saw something similar they'd be wondering who TF was invading and why nobody told them there was a war going on...
The fact that firearms are rarely fired in the line of duty in Japan does not mean that the firearm does not need to be effective if it does need to be used! There's another comment which lists the many handguns used by the Japanese police, from shortly after the Second World War to the present time. I noticed that that every security service assigned to protect important people use high-quality locked-breech 9x19mm pistols made in Germany. So, the fact is therefore proved that the regular people of Japan simply are not valued sufficiently as to be worth arming each patrolman equally. That's one way of looking at it. The fact is that the 7,65x15mm, .32 A.C.P., was standard in most of Europe for police specifically because it is, in a well-made pistol, exceptionally accurate and notably deadly if carefully aimed, while being less likely than some other alternatives to be lethal if _not_ aimed carefully to kill, and served widely from roughly 1903 - 1993 by which time they were being removed from service in favor of the 9x19, as shootouts involving the organized illicit drug trade had become significant hazards. See the CZ-81 and Beretta Modello 83, the last of the types used widely by police; very little different from this SIG.
@@davidgoodnow269 Thats a very american way of looking at it, "they dont value the individual as much as a politican" when in reality its simple risk stratification - the politician is at much higher risk of attack by someone with a firearm, whereas the average beat cop will likely never draw, let alone fire, their weapon in Japan. In fact theres arguably a significant risk that if armed with high capacity firearms and spare magazines, officers become a target for their firearms to be stolen. Remember that japan is indeed an incredibly safe country, arguably one that could do with unarmed officers.
Another nice video. I have one of those exact models! I bought it new back when a few of them came over to the United States. I’m glad I did because I don’t think very many made it over here. I believe Sig had a few leftover after they had fulfilled their contract with the Japanese police. The first review I’ve ever seen on one. And it a fun gun to shoot in 32 ACP.
I kept wondering why the police in those games kept showing up with these dinky little revolvers, thinking it was rule of cool or lack of knowledge of firearms Today I learned 🤣😅
5:00 "A country that's not gun savvy" Ian, you are the one who pointed out the bayonet lug on the Nambu Machine gun. LOL They are just seriously blade focused, although there will be a few "gun guys" every where. 😁
@@onii-chandaisuki5710 Places like the Philippines or Guam get a consistent stream of Japanese tourists in their shooting ranges, so they definitely exist there. Honestly, it's a loss that the place is so averse to firearms in the post-war era: just imagine the potentially weird and wacky designs that the world has missed out on over the decades.
You know, given how they're slowly driving Othias insane, it's not too much of a leap to think autoloaders can be quite a bit simpler than revolvers, with cylinder stops and whatnot. All a blowback really needs is something to hit the firing pin and a few springs for the magazine and slide.
In 2015, in Japan, a total of 6 shots were fired nationwide by the police. The risk of police injuring themselves would be be a way higher priority than any other concern, really, which makes sense for a lot of these gun design choices
@@Blodhelm How crime is perceived and committed is a little different in Japan. It's a highly patriarchal society so it's no wonder that most stalking or harassment cases as basically ignored; there's a reason a country ends up 125th out of 146 on the Gender Gap Index (for comparison, the US is on #43). On the other hand, "petty crime" and the breaking of (social) laws is highly socially stigmatised and so rare that anyone trying to rob a convenience store usually makes headline news nationwide. Most crime is of the organised kind and heavily slanted towards white collar crime.
@@ripvanwinkle2002often, cases don't go to court unless the prosecution is absolutely certain they'll get a conviction. If there's the tiniest doubt that the prosecution won't win, it simply won't go ahead. Unlike most western societies, they also tend to operate on the concept of "guilty until proven innocent". As unrealistic as the "Ace Attorney" games are, they parody the Japanese legal system beautifully. On top of all this, local police in some areas have been known to let the Yakuza do some of the policing when it comes to "minor" things, simply so they can focus on what they consider more serious stuff. Obviously, this is bad for many reasons, and you won't catch any officials admitting it.
In most ways, the P230/P232 is the "better PPK". It's actually closer in size to the PP, but the PPK is the Walther everyone knows. It's about the same size as other "PPK clones" like the Astra Constable or the Bersa Thunder.
@@danovercast9282 The Vz 82 has some vague resemblance to the PP, but is a far cry from the PPK, which is what the SIG 230 is modeled after. CZ's Vz 50, 52, and 70 models were much more inspired by the PPK.
@@chrissmalley83: For a short time, in Bavaria and lesser Baden - Württemberg and Rheinland - Pfalz some policemen had been armed with ,PP Super' in 9mm Police/ Ultra , similar power than 9mm Makarov. For a long time the officers of german state polices had mostly.32 Acp, female detectives sometimes only .25 Acp. Military 9mm Parabellum/ Luger was unwanted, so as compromise 9mm Police was introduced, but before all policemen in noted states got the PP Super, 9mm Luger was introduced, but for decades with FMJ bullets (!).
On the addition of the manual safety i think it was intended to be used if an officer has already chambered/discharged his weapon and is now moving between points of contact with suspects. Japan is a densely populated nation. There was probably concern about accidental discharges causing civilian causalities. Crime in japan is generally organized, Yakuza. If an officer is using his weapon its unlikely against one lone liquor store robber.
Great video Ian. I hope you will cover some of the Japanese police service revolvers sometimes, particularly the history of their adoption and procurement.
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E8%AD%A6%E5%AF%9F%E5%AE%98#%E3%81%91%E3%82%93%E9%8A%83 This page is a good place to start but I would advise using google translate.
The local beat cops in my city carry the M36/37 revolvers with wood grips. I asked one of them if could see his, and he apologized and said he couldn’t pull it out of the holster without a legitimate reason.
@@greycatturtle7132 Yes it is a Nambu Model 60 my father owns it in Denver Colorado my uncle died in 2021. It was presented to my father and he transferred it to the USA.
I never thought I'd see someone do a breakdown on this, I owned the airsoft variant made by KSC because it was cheap at the time and it's uncannily similar with exception to the markings. Was comfy to hold.
It’s false that SIG marked them West Germany because they had so many slides already marked from before reunification. The German government allowed western German manufacturers to continue to mark their goods “West Germany” for five years (to October, 1995) to show that they were quality since they were concerned about eastern manufacturers putting shoddy products onto the world market.
@@stevene6482 On second thought, since it "took place between 9 November 1989 and 15 March 1991. " Why don't you read history and shut your ignorant mouth.
Fun Fact: Before the Sig Sauer P230 became the replacement for Nambu M60. Japanese Police tested 3 more designs. The Beretta M92 , Glock 17 and Heckler & Koch P7M8.
They just have quirks to them cuz japan overthinks things. Like their new rifle, they made sure it's rust proof, even though they ain't doing any amphib landings anytime soon. USMC which actually does amphibious landings hasn't seem the need to adopt a new rifle with special feature for this.
@@Drownedinblood The amphibious landings were needed because Japan has islands dispute with China. They actually formed the amphibious brigade within JGSDF for this purpose to recover outer islands
I believe that P230JP was meant to replace old .32 PPK and M1910 of Imperial Guard, Security Police, and Anti-firearms squad. Since 1970s, those units imported and tested PPK for counter-terrorism measures though, Tokyo Subway Sarin Attack happened in 1995. So I think some believes that that was the reason why they adopted P230, to increase counter-terrorism measures for any kind, despite the very strict Japanese anti-gun law and public opinion. (They even put safety-rubber thing behind the trigger of DA revolver!)
@@UltraGwyl Actually, the government decided to tighten the restriction of hunting rifles/half rifles due to increase of Bear attack victims. I still don't get it wtf
By literally any possible metric a typical revolver is absolutely simpler than any mag-fed semi-automatic is or will be. Revolver is literally "toob" with "rotating arrangement of toobs" to feed it. I could build a functional revolver in a weekend with shit I can buy at the hardware store (albeit without a rifled barrel), whereas making a properly functional semi-auto pistol and magazine is just WAY more complex than that, even if that isn't itself inherently complicated by modern standards.
@@Astraeus.. Tell me you've never taken the grips off a revolver without telling me, while also telling me you don't understand spring steel as a concept.
For what it is worth. Was working in a gun shop 1999-2001. We got 2 of these in while I was there. Almost bought one, but the 32ACP kept me from doing it. To put in context in the American market at the time your options were the 230. Colt Mustang in 380 and KelTec P11 in 9mm. Then pocket revolvers and trash guns like Jennings/Raven .25 etc . We sold bucket fulls of $50 Ravens, a few Colt's and lots of 230's (in 380).
If the Japanese people could more easily own firearms, if their airsoft market is any indicator, they would be making all sorts of really interesting firearms/accessories
@@christopherhendren117Remember, MacArthur wrote their Constitution after the Second World War, and there was no way he was going to allow the Japanese to own guns.
@@williamromine5715 That, and Japan has a history of what they call Sword Hunts where rulers would confiscate any and all weapons in a region, although this was typically done after a war had ended.
I liked it that Ian included the cultural and societal context around the Japanese police's selection and specification of this pistol and didn't just focus on how it works.
Well in country with no one else with firearms, the guy with a .32acp is the heavy hitter. Sometimes it isn't about not understanding, but instead making intentional different choice due to different set of goals and aims. Like how English police really really doesn't understand the great potential of their patrol police carrying firearms.... or putting it how they actually see it "we are community policing, community police doesn't carry firearms, it doesn't fit the job. Armed police is separate unit, that gets called in, when necessary".
There is one advantage to having that extra safety: It makes it 100 percent safe to hand a loaded weapon, with a round chambered, to another person. If a police officer in Japan fires their weapon in anger, there has to be an investigation, and it helps to hand the weapon over in exactly the condition it is in after use. Sure, it's a bit ridiculous, but it fulfils the legalities.
Oh yeah! The moment I learned about these last year I immediately sought one out and got one shortly after. It is super nice to shoot. After getting it and doing more research into them I discovered the two separate groups of serial numbers. I started looking up all I could find online to get an idea of the serial number range and I noticed that only one of them mentioned coming with a box, one of the other S181's, and it's the same box and paperwork as mine. Speaking of the box. I was told that this is a P226 box. The instruction manual is for a P232, and inserted into that is a special sheet made specifically for the P230 that goes over the manual safety and also the pistols dimensions. I'm betting that there was so few brought in it wasn't worth making a specific box and manual for them. And if you look at the back of the manual the P232 has a date of 6/14/99, not sure if that is when the manual was specifically printed or more than likely when this version of the manual was approved. And the insert, which has a code labeling it specifically as an insert, has a date of 07/2000! I had also always read that 112 were imported in 1997, but these all seem to indicate that there was a second batch of an unknown amount that came in; I'm betting that it was 112 in 1997 and this second batch probably came back in 2000, so the 112 number came out before the second batch so that number just stuck. The serial numbers hint at there actually being more than the 112 but it's also possible they weren't sequential on what came over here as the overstock and what was sent to Japan. Another guy in this thread on the GLockTalk forum I was reading through, mentioned that in his research he found posts back to the early 2000's that mention the 112 coming in in 1997. It wouldn't make sense to me that they had imported them in 1997 and then held onto them until July of 2000 to print a specific insert just for these. But that instead it was another batch. They also seem to show up on GB more frequently than if there was only 112 in total in the US. You can see pictures I uploaded of the box and manuals on that GlockTalk thread. Another interesting thing I read somewhere was that these were limited to either like a special police unit or only a certain prefectural police unit and never fully issue country wide. I had actually reached out to Sig but they said they didn't have access to German production numbers unfortunately. I wonder who would because I would be very interested in finding the truth about them.
I believe the 112 number is too low as well, it is not a large number but to often they come up for sale. I need to check the dates on mine but it came with a box, manual with the insert.
@@EthanJaye all its doing is keeping Paul's name in our minds. And actually since commenting that, I've had a lot of Paul Harrells videos from years ago that I've never seen which is pretty cool.
@@markoneil6562 Paul's already well known in the community. Paul doesn't want his viewers to spread gospel about his death. That is just his character. So please refrain from doing these things.
This is the most Japanese story I’ve heard all year. Lots of nemawashi (beating around the bush) about making a change followed by an unworkable compromise meant to save face for both factions involved. Sometimes (a lot of times actually) you just have to tell someone “sorry we’re going with the other plan and you just have to deal with it”. It’s kinda heartwarming to see that the JP police went back to their revolvers because revolvers were closer to who they are as an agency. It’s not like Japan lacks SWAT teams for when things get real.
Thank you for introducing Japanse pistol. I am a Japanase viewer. This pistol is weaker than Tokarev and Makarov which are illegally imported from Russia and China (additionally, including North Korea?). Japanese mafia prefers them.
I've shot both the Makarov and Tokarev. The Makarov is very accurate and gentle, while the Tokarev is quite powerful indeed. You are correct about both being more powerful than the P230 in 7.65
Ian. You shoukd definitely review the daisy heddon 22. Its a 22 rifle that uses caseless ammo and it doesnt use a primer. No its technically not a air rifle. It uses compressed air to light the powder of the caseless ammo.
German companies were allowed to use the W Germany stamps until the end of 1995 due to a perceived lack of quality of items that were being manufactured in the now former East Germany. Sig used it all the way up until the end of 1995.
Hey Ian, you mentioned 9mm Ultra and "we'll get back to that", but you never did get back to that cartridge. I wonder how it fits in this story. I know that it is one of the cartridges the P230 was available in.
9mm Ultra was merely another chambering P230's can be found in, usually in European countries due to their laws on owning firearms in military/police calibers.
The ULTRA series of cartridges originated in Germany in the 1930s, but never became popular. The 9x18mm ULTRA may have been the basis for the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge; they differ in case taper, as the ULTRA uses the usual 0.355" bullet, while the Makarov uses a 0.360" bullet and has less taper from case head to case mouth; same bullet weight, same velocity. The only 9mm ULTRA ammunition I have seen used a flat-nosed conical bullet, while of course the Makarov is known for its hemispheric ball.
I mean honestly if you're expecting to have to use the firearm extremely rarely I guess it's better for it to be excessively safe because the possibility of accidents outweighs the added difficulty of usage. As is with the slide locked etc. even if the gun gets lost and found by some kids or something they probably wouldn't even be able to load it or make it go off.
Back in the mid-1980's I had the privilege to work with the German police in the American Sector of West Berlin. The US Army was transitioning to the new Beretta M9 and my associates were very interested in having a look. At the time they were using a single-stack Sig pistol (can't remember which) and they really really liked the double-stack configuration. All that to say that I knew at least one polizei hauptman who carried a P230 as sort of an unofficial backup gun(?). But that was the only P230 I ever saw over there. Now I have a little more historical insight. Thanks.
The 230/232 is WAYYYY better. Of course, that's not saying much. My neighbor bought an R51, didn't work at all. R replaced it, TWICE. Neither of the replacements worked either. He traded it and got a P232. That P232 has been flawless. Same as my example, flawless.
The R51 had a good look. It's a shame about everything else. I haven't thought about the R51 in a while. Now I kind of want one. They should be pretty cheap, right? ... Looking at completed auctions, they're pretty cheap. I can get a better gun for the same price, but I don't need a better gun. I already have better guns.
Well, shit. I had a chance to get one of these for a steal a few years back. Wife veto'd the purchase. Had I known the story, I would have pressed a little harder.
If it is not her money, it is not her choice. If it is her money and not yours, it is not your choice...pretty simple. I try to tell me father this with his new wife but he is simped to her.
I always laugh at betas who are bossed around my their wife. My wife knows her place and would never tell me how to spend my money. We have an understanding, she disrespect me, she's gone.
I'd love for Ian to give the Catalonan Labora SMG a look, there's almost no content on it and some museums still have some, they made between 1000 to 2000 during the late spanish civil war for the militia.
I used to carry a regular p230/p232? (I forget what it was exactly) in my jeans pocket all the time when I was a teenager. Sweet gun, very accurate. Loved it. Might pick one up again on a whim, one of the few guns I regret getting rid of.
Anti gun people like to point to Japan as a nation that reject guns in their culture, but I remember being at an American shooting range that closed early that day because they had contracted for a bus load of Japanese tourists to come to that range and experience shooting guns. I watched the tourists get off the bus and they were all like an excited group of school kids even though they were all adult men and women. I also remember that in Japan people will pay thousands of dollars for non shooting fake clones of military guns, so I'm skeptical when people say that the Japanese are a people who don't like guns.
They love them over there but Asian countries tend to have much stricter attitudes towards most things, marijuana can land you in prison in Japan and in Japan police are allowed to force confessions out of people.
There's a significant distance between being interested in guns, and wanting them to be available for civilians (or even the police) in the country you live in. Guns, weapons, and dangerous things in general, fascinate pretty much everybody. But one can acknowledge that he'd like to own a gun, and yet renounce the idea of changes to the legislation as he wouldn't like his neighbours or political opponents to be armed. Making concessions is part of living in a society, and Americans not making any concessions on gun ownership doesn't necessarily make them more free than others. Because they make their concessions on other fronts. In most other countries, people are more free to smoke in public, drive fast, drink from a younger age etc etc. All those things that pretty much anyone will agree on being "fun", but not necessarily good for society as a whole. From an avid French viewer.
For most Japanese people, guns are something they only see on the news or in movies, and are not a part of their daily lives. So I think people are excited by the idea of being able to operate a tool they've only seen on film. Of course, there are some people who like guns. The laws regarding gun ownership are very strict, so there is a demand for guns that have been modified so that they cannot be fired.
As someone who carries a 637 more days than not, I had to laugh a bit. As I examined my life choices. I'd pick the 60 over a 230 if I was a Japanese cop.
Coming from a southeast Kentucky town of less than 1000 people, any officer here would be bullied for carrying that even as a backup. Japan is a weird place.
The Sig P230JP is a nice-looking compact pistol with a very interesting history, it's a pity that it didn't meet the demands of the Japanese police for so many reasons and preferred revolvers instead(fun fact: the revolvers were also used in tokusatsu tv shows like Super Sentai and Kamen Rider along with semi-auto pistols).
1:40 This explains to me why in the early days of Detective Conan (serialized 1994), every cop character seemed to carry a 6-shooter. As a child I was wondering why some characters later in the series carried semi-autos, I wondered if it was a rank thing at the time.
Interesting, I didn't expect the .32 ACP pistol to be the police standard these days, but if the Japanese aren't very afraid of criminals with firearms, it'll probably be enough. Maybe even a weaker cartridge will be "better" because it will not kill a criminal who does not pose such a threat, just waves a knife, etc.
Ian is wearing sleeves. Now we know Fall has truly begun.
We'll be scraping ice off windshields any day now
Or he's in Finland again?😉
Lol it has been spoken
@@austintillman8297 definitely, it’s already in the low 40s in the mornings around me
Like when the pornhub girls profile pics have wreaths so you know it's Christmas?
9mm Ultra was, in fact, not something that we would get to later.
Any time between the moment he said it, and the heat death of the universe technically counts as later.
@@ekscalybur science 1
dejected viewer 0
Oh man! I was really hoping to learn what 9mm Ultra is. Never heard of it. 😅😢😂
@@billtree52 As far as I know it was first used in the Walther PP Super - 9x18 Ultra. Walther was trying to push what could be done with a blowback pistol for police use. Used a 380 caliber weight bullet 95 grains I believe, traveling at close to 9mm Parabellum speeds. Had a very sharp recoil due to the blowback operation. Was expensive to shoot as no reload ammo was available. The Walther was very nicely made. Believe the early Walther prototypes are where the Makarov caliber came from.
At first, they named it "9 mm Police", when it came out, back in the mid 1970s, together with the larger, locked breech P220. The actual bullet diameter is slightly smaller than that of the Makarov.
"Not to be confused with the P320"
Immediately calls it the 320 😂
I had to do a double take myself. Didn't know if it was my weirdo brain or Ian's weirdo brain. While I am cleared in this instance, it's just a drop against the ocean of times where I am at fault. Lol!
numbers are hard mayn
He set a trap in his brain by mentioning the 320 at the start of the video.
0:18
"Not to be mistaken for the 320..."
1:27
"...that really liked the P320."
🤦
@@Lightnin100
psychology sure is strange like that. called out the misnomer, then shortly after used the misnomer himself because it was on his mind.
There is an excellent Kurosawa film called Stray Dog about the search for a pistol that was stolen from a police officer. The pistol was a Colt Vest Pocket .25. The film gun was the deadliest .25 that ever existed.
I was going to suggest the same thing! It is actucally one of the films that created the Police Prosederal genre.
@@jtilton5 Indeed. I have also argued that it was the origin of the buddy cop movie. Young, inexperienced, headstrong officer (ex-military of course) paired with older, wiser officer.
It was also filmed on the streets of Tokyo without permits or the approval of the US Occupation authorities. So, early guerilla filmmaking!
@@rangerlongshot I have seen this, and think it's very good. I like the outdoor scenes and the travel through the city at that time. I found it interesting compared it to a police themed film made here in the UK at the same time called 'The Blue Lamp' which has views of post-war London.
@@adrianparker-e9f The first time I saw it, in the 70's, it was so weird to see a young Toshiro Mifune.
At 08:45 Ian offers the 1-sentence revolver owner's manual: "Revolver very simple: put in bullet, pull trigger, gun go bang, done."
And above all, never open the thing 😅😅😅😅
And Phil Specktor knew it too !!!!
years ago, when I was working at JP Police, My boss armed with P230JP.
l armed with Nambu Model 60（ニューナンブ M60） Revolver.
Interesting
The international audience would be very interested in hearing about your experiences, maybe there are Japanese memoirs, but I'm not aware of anything in English about modern Japanese police experiences.
@@j.murphy4884for real. I would love to read that.
@@j.murphy4884 I would read that.
Yep. Many of the Japanese police still ,to this very day use the Model 60.
Dammit, I was just looking for these on gunbroker- now the price is gonna go way up. Thanks, Ian.
Nice, now I can jack up the price of mine. Thanks, Ian
If it goes up high enough maybe sig will re release
Ianflation!
Damn i didnt realize he had that power 😂😂
😂
It should be noted according to Japanese law, the P230JP can only be loaded with five rounds like the revolver unless authorized.(Reloads are not issued which really destroys any advantage the p230jp has) In addition, it is not the only semi-auto pistol used by Japanese police. 9mm pistols are considered a "Special Pistol" and are usually only used by specialist units or departments expected to deal with heavily armed and dangerous subjects, for example the S&W 3913 pistol(originally designated for the Organized Crime Control Bureau but relegated to the Anti-Firearms Squads), Special Investigation Teams (Assorted variants of Beretta 92s), Riot Police (HKSFP9 for special events like the Olympics, which was why it was bought), Public Security (Rumoured to be HK USP, likely 9mm compact), SP bodyguards (HK P2000) and the Special Assault Teams (P226). There are notable exceptions however, a patrol officer of the Nara Prefectural Police was shown to be issued the 3913 and a P2000 was issued to another patrol officer of Aichi Prefectural Police during inspection. An MPD officer was photographed having a holstered Glock 17 Gen 5 during the Olympics, causing a stir amongst the Japanese. Interestingly, there are records showing that WW2 1911a1s are used by patrol officers and detectives till the 80s, but they are not well liked due to being too bulky and having heavy recoil.
P.S.:
Right after WW2, Japanese police was disarmed but quickly rearmed due to poor public order. The S&W 1917 is the main revolver issued to Japanese police until 1970s, which may be the reason why they still choose to use S&W revolvers to this day. S&W M36 are also issued to the predecessor unit of the Special Assault Team along with the HK P9S and one was stolen from the Osaka Prefectural Police which was used on an attempted assassination on then President of ROK Park Chung-hee alongside with a New Nambu M60. The pistols used by Japanese police post-war is a mix of many models and WW2 surplus which is why they decided to produce their own pistol, the aforementioned New Nambu M60. That said, it never managed to fully replace all surplus pistols and they themselves are beginning to be replaced as well.
You know, if Ian ever got the chance, I'd love to see a video on the New Nambu M60, a "modern" police revolver which itself has an interesting story of it's own to tell.
@@casuallatecomer7597 I think it would interesting for Ian to visit a Japanese gun production facility and review a Howa produced M1 Carbine.
Very very few Japanese police offers are armed
I'm doing firearms research for a story set in Japan so thanks for the good info. I've read that the Japanese SAT also used the HK P9S.
@@DavidKArrrrgh All officers are armed but very few officers are heavily armed, or well-armed even in Asian standards
I was going to an armorers course at S&W about 20 years ago when they were filling the order for those M60 revolvers. They were just as you would imagine. A 2 1/2 inch Chief Special. They had a matte finish and a lanyard ring on the butt. There were pallets of them, shrink wrapped in plastic, waiting to be shipped. As I recall, the contract was for 40 thousand guns and parts. I’m not sure how many they delivered but I saw at least several thousand of them boxed up and ready to go when I was there. Knowing the Japanese, I doubt any will ever show up at gun shows.
Lovely well built little pistol. I just checked mine (not Japan police model) and I've got the W. Germany slide - never noticed that before until today!
Now we can continue dreaming of Ian reviewing a Type 64 and 89.
Yes please! The Type 89-F in particular is one of my very favourites, it's just so darn classy.
@@BleedingUranium Have you fired one? Or you just think it looks "cool" and used it in a video game?
@keegantripp1245 they aren't as nice as you think. They are just quirky like the 64 has a charging handle facing straight up. The type 89 is like a Daewoo with a permanent bipod...
@@_ArsNova This is a youtube channel on rare/etc firearms; 99% of the audience hasn't handled 99% of what's on here. Take your weird snark elsewhere.
@@Drownedinblood The K2 is also cool. This era/style of service rifle is my favourite, with stuff like these, the HK33, FNC, AR-18, SG 550, Galil, SR 88, etc.
The revolver is so iconic to Japanese policing that Patlabor has them for the mecha (chambered in 37-42mm), in spite of a hand-held weapon like that making little sense. Indeed one scene of tension in the first film is the protagonist going up an elevator, and taking the opportunity to disembark and reload the thing from stowage in the side of the calf.
Good films, excellent manga
It makes sense as police mechs aren't military in nature and needs to _look_ friendly in front of the public, the most they are gonna shoot at is rampaging bots or light vehicles so handheld shotguns and revolvers made complete sense. Only the military mechs has arm-mounted rotary guns, FLIR camera and removal of the "head" in place of a more armored cockpit because it's simply not needed.
That might explain why most of the characters in Killer7 - weird, cult video game - had revolvers. Including a twelve-shot revolver with two barrels, one on top of the other.
I haven't seen Patlabor in ages. Will have to track them down and watch them. 😊
They also had shotguns they could be issued if they needed actual firepower (in at least one of the continuities), plus shotguns in the cockpits for dismounting and arresting potentially violent drivers.
If you want to watch Patlabor, start with the original OVAs, then proceed to: (A) then movies if you want darker or (B) the TV series if you want lighter.
This is one of the most beautiful pistols ever
It's my understanding that the label "Made in West Germany" was used for several years after reunification. This was due to manufacturers in the West wanting to continue to differentiate themselves from what was seen as lower-quality manufacturers in the East.
Which was a bit dishonest, given that the relatively few East German firms that survived reunification were making high quality products that were able to compete with Western competition. Carl Zeiss Jena comes to mind. It was only a small minority of firms though due to the abhorrent mismanagement of both the entire East German economy and most companies under Communist rule.
That said, engineers and factory workers of companies that didn't survive (as well as scientists working in STEM fields at East German universities - not the people teaching Marxism) were usually well-trained enough that they could be relatively quickly retrained to work for Western or newly formed companies (and the new research landscape in case of scientists). The best example for this is the "German Silicon Valley" in Saxony, which emerged from the ashes of the largely unsuccessful computer manufacturers that were unified under the Robotron label. Their products were awful and had no chance on the free market, but they had world-class talent that was able to adopt to new conditions with relative ease. It was the same with the East German car industry.
@@no1DdC As I recall, East Germany actually *could* have had a computer industry, except the Soviet Union saw it as a threat and kept sabotaging it.
@@no1DdC I can't find my source of this at the moment, but I believe the "Made in West Germany" label was only used for ~5 years post-reunification.
I have a 2000 Porsche Boxster with a coolant reservoir cap that says West Germany. Pelican Parts says the part number is 996-106-447-04-M8, and is black, and implies not Porsche. Porsche labeled version is blue (blau) 996-106-447-04-M10. The 996 (5th gen 911) was manufactured 1997 to 2006. It is clearly not the same as 944/968 cap. So maybe knockoff manufacturers felt the need to puff the product with West Germany. Just more useless data that you can't forget now 🙂
guten tag - german here - after reunification that „west“ disappeared, because there was no longer a country with that name, hence no juridical reason to do so.
maybe some factories were slow to implement it in their machining, but the reasoning that west german products wanted to distinguish themselves from their eastern „rivals“ is unfounded, as there was no competition in virtually all products manufactured, as the east was at that point in history behind on most things in technology, with the exception of Carl Zeiss at least..
adding to this, the majority of eastern manufacturers closed up shop very quickly or were bought out by former western germany companies, which led to a variety of internal societal issues and inequality in germany that are not completely resolved to this day.
The fact that the Japanese police never needed to be heavily armed in the past was due to the Japanese organized crime refraining (for the most part) from using firearms. Both to limit collateral damage and to avoid crackdowns and an arms race with the police. There were a few high profile assassnations of course, but virtually no general gun violence.
Lots of grenade violence though
And in highly populated Japan firearms are louder, so assumingly faster noticed.
@5anjuro it's not even that. Japan being a series of islands, it's harder to smuggle guns in.
And if they catch you with a gun they put you under the jail. Especially if you're missing a finger.
@@Drownedinbloodsomewhere being a series of islands have never stopped anyone from smuggling in guns. Indonesia and the Phillipines comes to mind. This isnt the 1800s anymore, smugglers dare, could and has brought in heavy crates filled with guns inside wooden fishing boats. Some would say its a lot easier than dealing with customs and immigration checkpoint as they could just make landfall at some random bumfuck village and no one would care
I had a P232 and it was a large .380 ACP, but a very comfortable and accurate one. I parted with it for a Walther PPK which helped pay for my wedding when it was sold. I regret losing both pistols.
Do you still have the wife at least?
@@paidwitness797 Yes, but she's cost me a lot more since I married her. Still, you have to given an investment time to mature and realize its true value. 15 years so far.
Great little carry gun, I have a 1988 380ACP model , my first handgun purchase, has served me well and hits where it's pointed. Mine was imported by SIG when they were in Herndon, VA before the move to Exeter, NH.
These were imported by Sig Arms and sold through William's Shooters Supply many years ago as contract overruns. I actually bought one and still have it. The safety is opposite and cannot be used unless the hammer is down. The lanyard loop was only on these contract models. One BIG drawback is there is NO external slide stop (like all P230/P232 models) so if you ever get a double feed you can't lock the slide back making clearing a jam more difficult.
まさかこれが取り上げられるとは夢にも思わなかった。
最初ついにコネ付けたのかと思ってマジで声出たわ
わかる どっから入手したのかと思ったら日本向けに作られたのが少数売られてんのねアメリカで
S&WのM37の日本警察仕様のも少数売られてたらしいし
@@larana1192 要は日本の注文数が少ないからダブついた在庫を、アメリカで興味ある人向けに売ってるだけよ
Ah dang it, dude! Ive been trying to find one of these and here goes Ian giving these the "Forgotten Weapons Bump" by telling everyone about them.
Great video and keep up the great work!
Most Japanese police officers end their carrer without shooting in duty.
And once a police officer shoots in duty, it becomes a news all over Japan.
Shootings by criminals and police officers are both rare.
As a result, Japanese police department doesn't need powerful 9mm and complicated short recoil pistols.
Exactly this... The video awhile back of that idiot cop mag-dumping twice into his own cruiser over an acorn is probably more bullets than the average entire Japanese police department will fire off in the line of duty over the course of several years. There's just no possible comparison. In 25 years less than 500 gun homicides in Japan. The USA had more than that within the first 6 days of this year. The differences are just so extreme that most Americans really can't quite grasp it. Seeing half a dozen squad cars and police in full gear with rifles near some house or building in the US isn't even an out of place sight. If people in Japan saw something similar they'd be wondering who TF was invading and why nobody told them there was a war going on...
Most American officers never fire their weapon on duty.
The fact that firearms are rarely fired in the line of duty in Japan does not mean that the firearm does not need to be effective if it does need to be used!
There's another comment which lists the many handguns used by the Japanese police, from shortly after the Second World War to the present time. I noticed that that every security service assigned to protect important people use high-quality locked-breech 9x19mm pistols made in Germany. So, the fact is therefore proved that the regular people of Japan simply are not valued sufficiently as to be worth arming each patrolman equally.
That's one way of looking at it.
The fact is that the 7,65x15mm, .32 A.C.P., was standard in most of Europe for police specifically because it is, in a well-made pistol, exceptionally accurate and notably deadly if carefully aimed, while being less likely than some other alternatives to be lethal if _not_ aimed carefully to kill, and served widely from roughly 1903 - 1993 by which time they were being removed from service in favor of the 9x19, as shootouts involving the organized illicit drug trade had become significant hazards. See the CZ-81 and Beretta Modello 83, the last of the types used widely by police; very little different from this SIG.
@@1978garfield right, but they are far far far more likely to do so, and far more likely to do so against an opponent with a similar or better weapon.
@@davidgoodnow269 Thats a very american way of looking at it, "they dont value the individual as much as a politican" when in reality its simple risk stratification - the politician is at much higher risk of attack by someone with a firearm, whereas the average beat cop will likely never draw, let alone fire, their weapon in Japan. In fact theres arguably a significant risk that if armed with high capacity firearms and spare magazines, officers become a target for their firearms to be stolen.
Remember that japan is indeed an incredibly safe country, arguably one that could do with unarmed officers.
"Case Closed, This is how your Justice ends..."
😂
I was thinking: "Hey, since when were the Japanese allowed to carry such big guns?"
Another nice video. I have one of those exact models! I bought it new back when a few of them came over to the United States. I’m glad I did because I don’t think very many made it over here. I believe Sig had a few leftover after they had fulfilled their contract with the Japanese police. The first review I’ve ever seen on one. And it a fun gun to shoot in 32 ACP.
Ah Kiryu's favorite weapon.
Also, Kazuma Kiryu's bane where every thug is equipped with handguns.
He has never killed anyone
John Yakuza never killed a man.
Ten years in the joint
I kept wondering why the police in those games kept showing up with these dinky little revolvers, thinking it was rule of cool or lack of knowledge of firearms
Today I learned 🤣😅
5:00 "A country that's not gun savvy"
Ian, you are the one who pointed out the bayonet lug on the Nambu Machine gun. LOL
They are just seriously blade focused, although there will be a few "gun guys" every where. 😁
Japan invented airsoft as we know it, so there's a sizeable group of gun enthusiasts one would have to assume.
@@onii-chandaisuki5710 Places like the Philippines or Guam get a consistent stream of Japanese tourists in their shooting ranges, so they definitely exist there. Honestly, it's a loss that the place is so averse to firearms in the post-war era: just imagine the potentially weird and wacky designs that the world has missed out on over the decades.
You know, given how they're slowly driving Othias insane, it's not too much of a leap to think autoloaders can be quite a bit simpler than revolvers, with cylinder stops and whatnot. All a blowback really needs is something to hit the firing pin and a few springs for the magazine and slide.
Yeah, revolvers are theoretically simpler, but the reality is that the timings involved with that cylinder mean that there's a lot of small parts.
In 2015, in Japan, a total of 6 shots were fired nationwide by the police.
The risk of police injuring themselves would be be a way higher priority than any other concern, really, which makes sense for a lot of these gun design choices
Makes sense when they notoriously do nothing about things like stalkers and have spotless white gloves. American mall cops see more action.
@@Blodhelm and confessions trump evidence in court..
@@Blodhelm How crime is perceived and committed is a little different in Japan. It's a highly patriarchal society so it's no wonder that most stalking or harassment cases as basically ignored; there's a reason a country ends up 125th out of 146 on the Gender Gap Index (for comparison, the US is on #43). On the other hand, "petty crime" and the breaking of (social) laws is highly socially stigmatised and so rare that anyone trying to rob a convenience store usually makes headline news nationwide. Most crime is of the organised kind and heavily slanted towards white collar crime.
@@ripvanwinkle2002often, cases don't go to court unless the prosecution is absolutely certain they'll get a conviction. If there's the tiniest doubt that the prosecution won't win, it simply won't go ahead.
Unlike most western societies, they also tend to operate on the concept of "guilty until proven innocent".
As unrealistic as the "Ace Attorney" games are, they parody the Japanese legal system beautifully.
On top of all this, local police in some areas have been known to let the Yakuza do some of the policing when it comes to "minor" things, simply so they can focus on what they consider more serious stuff. Obviously, this is bad for many reasons, and you won't catch any officials admitting it.
Apparently Japan doesn't have any acorns.
I have a surplused S&W 360J .38, and I love it. I didn't realize that it was so new, coming in after this gun.
I had a P230SL in .380, the fit and finish was beautiful.
If I hadn't have looked at the title I would have assumed this was like a PPK clone of some sort
It is, it's just more reliable
The early Cold War Era was awash in what were basically PP "knockoffs". The SIG, Makarov, FEG, etc. IMHO the Czechs did it best with the CZ 82/83.
In most ways, the P230/P232 is the "better PPK". It's actually closer in size to the PP, but the PPK is the Walther everyone knows. It's about the same size as other "PPK clones" like the Astra Constable or the Bersa Thunder.
@@danovercast9282 The Vz 82 has some vague resemblance to the PP, but is a far cry from the PPK, which is what the SIG 230 is modeled after. CZ's Vz 50, 52, and 70 models were much more inspired by the PPK.
@@chrissmalley83: For a short time, in Bavaria and lesser Baden - Württemberg and Rheinland - Pfalz some policemen had been armed with ,PP Super' in 9mm Police/ Ultra , similar power than 9mm Makarov. For a long time the officers of german state polices had mostly.32 Acp, female detectives sometimes only .25 Acp. Military 9mm Parabellum/ Luger was unwanted, so as compromise 9mm Police was introduced, but before all policemen in noted states got the PP Super, 9mm Luger was introduced, but for decades with FMJ bullets (!).
On the addition of the manual safety i think it was intended to be used if an officer has already chambered/discharged his weapon and is now moving between points of contact with suspects. Japan is a densely populated nation. There was probably concern about accidental discharges causing civilian causalities. Crime in japan is generally organized, Yakuza. If an officer is using his weapon its unlikely against one lone liquor store robber.
Great video Ian. I hope you will cover some of the Japanese police service revolvers sometimes, particularly the history of their adoption and procurement.
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E8%AD%A6%E5%AF%9F%E5%AE%98#%E3%81%91%E3%82%93%E9%8A%83
This page is a good place to start but I would advise using google translate.
I second that request! But requests like that have to be submitted to Ian through his sponsorship site, as with questions for his Q&A videos.
Fun-Fact:
The "Kiel Proofhouse" was located right on the SIG-Sauer factory area in Eckernförde for convenience reasons.
The local beat cops in my city carry the M36/37 revolvers with wood grips. I asked one of them if could see his, and he apologized and said he couldn’t pull it out of the holster without a legitimate reason.
I bet he has to write a report if he takes it out to clean it.
@@1978garfield
Gven what I know about Japanese society’s love of paperwork, I think that might be a pretty safe bet. 🤠
thats fairly standard, a UK or Aussie cop would never unholster their firearm to just show someone.
Another interesting video as always. This kind of reminds me of the VZOR-50 and 70.
i was amazed when my uncle a 20 year metropolitan Tokyo Police officer carried this pistol.
I remember hus .38 revolver.
It was the Nambu model 60 ?
@@greycatturtle7132 Yes it is a Nambu Model 60 my father owns it in Denver Colorado my uncle died in 2021. It was presented to my father and he transferred it to the USA.
use asian girl photo, no content, 250 subscribers for a girl pic
@@dertythegrower ?????
@@greycatturtle7132 Odd my response was erased
Yes it is a Nambu Model 60 my uncle passed away in 2021 and my father owns it now
I never thought I'd see someone do a breakdown on this, I owned the airsoft variant made by KSC because it was cheap at the time and it's uncannily similar with exception to the markings. Was comfy to hold.
Proud to have the later (P230) crazy accurate slide-bitin' mofo in the stash…
I love the mechanical-smooth-ness of its action.
Now i understand why i see these so often in animes.
You’re surprised? It’s been known by cops around the world that they still use 38s in Japan
It’s false that SIG marked them West Germany because they had so many slides already marked from before reunification. The German government allowed western German manufacturers to continue to mark their goods “West Germany” for five years (to October, 1995) to show that they were quality since they were concerned about eastern manufacturers putting shoddy products onto the world market.
That is super interesting! Do you know what that declaration was called?
Which, since these were made in 1997, makes it true. (Roll eyes emoji here.)
@@blshouseyou might want to look up when reunification occurred and rethink that statement. Logic is not on your side
@@stevene6482 Complain to the op. "(to October, 1995)"
@@stevene6482 On second thought, since it "took place between 9 November 1989 and 15 March 1991. " Why don't you read history and shut your ignorant mouth.
"Oh yeah? Well I think YOU'RE very small, very light, very unimposing, unthreatening, not militaristic IAN"
Very demure, very mindful.
Not like the other guns, very cutesy.
Thanks for some info on a P230 that is unusual.
I love my P230 in 380 ACP and collect SIG P-series pistols in general.
I love my P230. It's an outstanding pistol.
Fun Fact:
Before the Sig Sauer P230 became the replacement for Nambu M60.
Japanese Police tested 3 more designs. The Beretta M92 , Glock 17 and Heckler & Koch P7M8.
Weapons imported to Japan are usually pretty nifty compared to the standard models.
They apply their superior intelligence hive mind to anything that comes to their colony. Fascinating species that should be studied more in-depth.
They just have quirks to them cuz japan overthinks things. Like their new rifle, they made sure it's rust proof, even though they ain't doing any amphib landings anytime soon. USMC which actually does amphibious landings hasn't seem the need to adopt a new rifle with special feature for this.
@@DrownedinbloodWhich rifle is it?
@@fortheloveofnoise the type 20
@@Drownedinblood The amphibious landings were needed because Japan has islands dispute with China. They actually formed the amphibious brigade within JGSDF for this purpose to recover outer islands
I believe that P230JP was meant to replace old .32 PPK and M1910 of Imperial Guard, Security Police, and Anti-firearms squad.
Since 1970s, those units imported and tested PPK for counter-terrorism measures though, Tokyo Subway Sarin Attack happened in 1995. So I think some believes that that was the reason why they adopted P230, to increase counter-terrorism measures for any kind, despite the very strict Japanese anti-gun law and public opinion.
(They even put safety-rubber thing behind the trigger of DA revolver!)
The safety rubber is a thing of the past now thankfully. The culture over there seems to be shifting towards a more practical usage of firearms.
@@UltraGwyl Actually, the government decided to tighten the restriction of hunting rifles/half rifles due to increase of Bear attack victims. I still don't get it wtf
@@Doe774 I am talking about the police actually, but I agree with your sentiment
"Revolver simple, autoloader complicated." Wait, what? The only thing simpler than a fixed barrel blowback .32acp is "toob."
All hail toob.
And if it is personally owned, it would be a RUclips. ^-^
By literally any possible metric a typical revolver is absolutely simpler than any mag-fed semi-automatic is or will be. Revolver is literally "toob" with "rotating arrangement of toobs" to feed it. I could build a functional revolver in a weekend with shit I can buy at the hardware store (albeit without a rifled barrel), whereas making a properly functional semi-auto pistol and magazine is just WAY more complex than that, even if that isn't itself inherently complicated by modern standards.
@@Astraeus.. 🤣
@@Astraeus.. Tell me you've never taken the grips off a revolver without telling me, while also telling me you don't understand spring steel as a concept.
I have had a P230 in .380 for almost 30 years; it is a sweet shooting pistol.
The Sig P230/P232 are excellent .380acp pistols.
The ultimate version of the Sauer 38h
For what it is worth. Was working in a gun shop 1999-2001. We got 2 of these in while I was there. Almost bought one, but the 32ACP kept me from doing it.
To put in context in the American market at the time your options were the 230. Colt Mustang in 380 and KelTec P11 in 9mm. Then pocket revolvers and trash guns like Jennings/Raven .25 etc .
We sold bucket fulls of $50 Ravens, a few Colt's and lots of 230's (in 380).
If the Japanese people could more easily own firearms, if their airsoft market is any indicator, they would be making all sorts of really interesting firearms/accessories
The Japanese are firearms exporters…
Yeah, if only they had a 2nd Amendment.
@@christopherhendren117Remember, MacArthur wrote their Constitution after the Second World War, and there was no way he was going to allow the Japanese to own guns.
@@williamromine5715 That, and Japan has a history of what they call Sword Hunts where rulers would confiscate any and all weapons in a region, although this was typically done after a war had ended.
@@williamromine5715 Right, well it was that feeling where we just ended a war with a terrible enemy.
Now we are back to Forgotten Weapons
I liked it that Ian included the cultural and societal context around the Japanese police's selection and specification of this pistol and didn't just focus on how it works.
Sig always makes a fine looking Pistols, my personal favourite is the Sig Pro SP 2009
The best looking sig yet
The insistence on a manual safety and .32acp seems to imply that the board didn't really understand the benefits, or potential of the platform.
Well in country with no one else with firearms, the guy with a .32acp is the heavy hitter. Sometimes it isn't about not understanding, but instead making intentional different choice due to different set of goals and aims. Like how English police really really doesn't understand the great potential of their patrol police carrying firearms.... or putting it how they actually see it "we are community policing, community police doesn't carry firearms, it doesn't fit the job. Armed police is separate unit, that gets called in, when necessary".
A manual safety when the pistol was rountinel carries with an empty chamber?!
@@aritakalo8011Criminals in Japan can still get their hands on guns.
@@DPRK_Best_Korea And still they don't routinely get into shootouts et cetera. So the context stands.
@@todglenn2707 Yeah, AND a double action trigger aswell. Seems like an excessive combination of security...
I’ve had a 232 for 20 years. With the exception of some aluminum case rounds, it has never jammed. Ever.
There is one advantage to having that extra safety: It makes it 100 percent safe to hand a loaded weapon, with a round chambered, to another person. If a police officer in Japan fires their weapon in anger, there has to be an investigation, and it helps to hand the weapon over in exactly the condition it is in after use. Sure, it's a bit ridiculous, but it fulfils the legalities.
Oh yeah! The moment I learned about these last year I immediately sought one out and got one shortly after. It is super nice to shoot.
After getting it and doing more research into them I discovered the two separate groups of serial numbers. I started looking up all I could find online to get an idea of the serial number range and I noticed that only one of them mentioned coming with a box, one of the other S181's, and it's the same box and paperwork as mine.
Speaking of the box. I was told that this is a P226 box. The instruction manual is for a P232, and inserted into that is a special sheet made specifically for the P230 that goes over the manual safety and also the pistols dimensions. I'm betting that there was so few brought in it wasn't worth making a specific box and manual for them. And if you look at the back of the manual the P232 has a date of 6/14/99, not sure if that is when the manual was specifically printed or more than likely when this version of the manual was approved. And the insert, which has a code labeling it specifically as an insert, has a date of 07/2000!
I had also always read that 112 were imported in 1997, but these all seem to indicate that there was a second batch of an unknown amount that came in; I'm betting that it was 112 in 1997 and this second batch probably came back in 2000, so the 112 number came out before the second batch so that number just stuck. The serial numbers hint at there actually being more than the 112 but it's also possible they weren't sequential on what came over here as the overstock and what was sent to Japan. Another guy in this thread on the GLockTalk forum I was reading through, mentioned that in his research he found posts back to the early 2000's that mention the 112 coming in in 1997. It wouldn't make sense to me that they had imported them in 1997 and then held onto them until July of 2000 to print a specific insert just for these. But that instead it was another batch. They also seem to show up on GB more frequently than if there was only 112 in total in the US. You can see pictures I uploaded of the box and manuals on that GlockTalk thread.
Another interesting thing I read somewhere was that these were limited to either like a special police unit or only a certain prefectural police unit and never fully issue country wide.
I had actually reached out to Sig but they said they didn't have access to German production numbers unfortunately. I wonder who would because I would be very interested in finding the truth about them.
I believe the 112 number is too low as well, it is not a large number but to often they come up for sale. I need to check the dates on mine but it came with a box, manual with the insert.
I had one, consistently stove-pipe jam. Often cycling out round to clear chamber would jam
RIP Paul Harrell
Please don't just spam that in the videos of other guntubers.
I doubt Paul would very much like that.
@@EthanJaye all its doing is keeping Paul's name in our minds. And actually since commenting that, I've had a lot of Paul Harrells videos from years ago that I've never seen which is pretty cool.
@@markoneil6562 Paul's already well known in the community. Paul doesn't want his viewers to spread gospel about his death. That is just his character. So please refrain from doing these things.
This is the most Japanese story I’ve heard all year. Lots of nemawashi (beating around the bush) about making a change followed by an unworkable compromise meant to save face for both factions involved. Sometimes (a lot of times actually) you just have to tell someone “sorry we’re going with the other plan and you just have to deal with it”. It’s kinda heartwarming to see that the JP police went back to their revolvers because revolvers were closer to who they are as an agency. It’s not like Japan lacks SWAT teams for when things get real.
Thank you for introducing Japanse pistol. I am a Japanase viewer.
This pistol is weaker than Tokarev and Makarov which are illegally imported from Russia and China (additionally, including North Korea?).
Japanese mafia prefers them.
I've shot both the Makarov and Tokarev. The Makarov is very accurate and gentle, while the Tokarev is quite powerful indeed. You are correct about both being more powerful than the P230 in 7.65
Ian. You shoukd definitely review the daisy heddon 22. Its a 22 rifle that uses caseless ammo and it doesnt use a primer. No its technically not a air rifle. It uses compressed air to light the powder of the caseless ammo.
German companies were allowed to use the W Germany stamps until the end of 1995 due to a perceived lack of quality of items that were being manufactured in the now former East Germany. Sig used it all the way up until the end of 1995.
1:18 I was really hoping the next word would be ‘fed’. A belt-fed pistol 😳 so cool 🎆
Don't know if this is feasible but a book series on the history of different countries police weapons would be interesting.
Hey Ian, you mentioned 9mm Ultra and "we'll get back to that", but you never did get back to that cartridge. I wonder how it fits in this story. I know that it is one of the cartridges the P230 was available in.
9mm Ultra was merely another chambering P230's can be found in, usually in European countries due to their laws on owning firearms in military/police calibers.
The ULTRA series of cartridges originated in Germany in the 1930s, but never became popular. The 9x18mm ULTRA may have been the basis for the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge; they differ in case taper, as the ULTRA uses the usual 0.355" bullet, while the Makarov uses a 0.360" bullet and has less taper from case head to case mouth; same bullet weight, same velocity.
The only 9mm ULTRA ammunition I have seen used a flat-nosed conical bullet, while of course the Makarov is known for its hemispheric ball.
I mean honestly if you're expecting to have to use the firearm extremely rarely I guess it's better for it to be excessively safe because the possibility of accidents outweighs the added difficulty of usage. As is with the slide locked etc. even if the gun gets lost and found by some kids or something they probably wouldn't even be able to load it or make it go off.
One of these hit Gunbroker a few years back. It was in 32acp. It too was a Japanese pistol.
I have been hankering for a Nambu Model 60 review for over a decade.....please make one.
Same for the Miroku.
Back in the mid-1980's I had the privilege to work with the German police in the American Sector of West Berlin. The US Army was transitioning to the new Beretta M9 and my associates were very interested in having a look. At the time they were using a single-stack Sig pistol (can't remember which) and they really really liked the double-stack configuration. All that to say that I knew at least one polizei hauptman who carried a P230 as sort of an unofficial backup gun(?). But that was the only P230 I ever saw over there. Now I have a little more historical insight. Thanks.
I believe it was the Sig P6, because i bought one in 2009 as a police trade in
Cool Gun, I hope you can get access to the Type 64s or the type 89s, eventually they are cool guns
The inclusion of the manual safety and lanyard loop certainly set it apart.
Looks lot like the Remington R51 but, I bet its waay better.
The 230/232 is WAYYYY better.
Of course, that's not saying much.
My neighbor bought an R51, didn't work at all. R replaced it, TWICE.
Neither of the replacements worked either. He traded it and got a P232. That P232 has been flawless. Same as my example, flawless.
The R51 had a good look. It's a shame about everything else.
I haven't thought about the R51 in a while. Now I kind of want one. They should be pretty cheap, right? ... Looking at completed auctions, they're pretty cheap. I can get a better gun for the same price, but I don't need a better gun. I already have better guns.
What a find!
Japanese police in Tokyo: 5 shot 9mm
American police in a town of 60000 people: Glock 17 with +3 round magazine extension
At 1:29 he accidentally calls it the P320. The irony is that at the beginning Ian says don’t get the two models confused.
Finally, a modern Japanese firearm!
wow so modest
Here's hoping Ian someday manages to review the firearms made by Howa.
Well, shit.
I had a chance to get one of these for a steal a few years back. Wife veto'd the purchase. Had I known the story, I would have pressed a little harder.
If it is not her money, it is not her choice. If it is her money and not yours, it is not your choice...pretty simple. I try to tell me father this with his new wife but he is simped to her.
Beta male 😅
I always laugh at betas who are bossed around my their wife. My wife knows her place and would never tell me how to spend my money. We have an understanding, she disrespect me, she's gone.
The beta and you are both wrong. There is a better way.
I'd love for Ian to give the Catalonan Labora SMG a look, there's almost no content on it and some museums still have some, they made between 1000 to 2000 during the late spanish civil war for the militia.
I used to carry a regular p230/p232? (I forget what it was exactly) in my jeans pocket all the time when I was a teenager. Sweet gun, very accurate. Loved it. Might pick one up again on a whim, one of the few guns I regret getting rid of.
I really this design, so sleek and elegant!
Anti gun people like to point to Japan as a nation that reject guns in their culture, but I remember being at an American shooting range that closed early that day because they had contracted for a bus load of Japanese tourists to come to that range and experience shooting guns. I watched the tourists get off the bus and they were all like an excited group of school kids even though they were all adult men and women. I also remember that in Japan people will pay thousands of dollars for non shooting fake clones of military guns, so I'm skeptical when people say that the Japanese are a people who don't like guns.
They love them over there but Asian countries tend to have much stricter attitudes towards most things, marijuana can land you in prison in Japan and in Japan police are allowed to force confessions out of people.
I think most people from anti-gun countries would be very excited to hold a firearm in their life, like most Americans go abroad to taste good food.
@@vintovkasniperayou mean British ppl of course.
There's a significant distance between being interested in guns, and wanting them to be available for civilians (or even the police) in the country you live in.
Guns, weapons, and dangerous things in general, fascinate pretty much everybody. But one can acknowledge that he'd like to own a gun, and yet renounce the idea of changes to the legislation as he wouldn't like his neighbours or political opponents to be armed.
Making concessions is part of living in a society, and Americans not making any concessions on gun ownership doesn't necessarily make them more free than others. Because they make their concessions on other fronts.
In most other countries, people are more free to smoke in public, drive fast, drink from a younger age etc etc. All those things that pretty much anyone will agree on being "fun", but not necessarily good for society as a whole.
From an avid French viewer.
For most Japanese people, guns are something they only see on the news or in movies, and are not a part of their daily lives.
So I think people are excited by the idea of being able to operate a tool they've only seen on film.
Of course, there are some people who like guns. The laws regarding gun ownership are very strict, so there is a demand for guns that have been modified so that they cannot be fired.
As someone who carries a 637 more days than not, I had to laugh a bit. As I examined my life choices. I'd pick the 60 over a 230 if I was a Japanese cop.
Kind of reminds me of the Astra Constable 32 Auto. I acquired one a few years back, I've never shot it, it's a pretty gun, black hard chrome finish.
How can you have a gun and never fire it? That's just weird.
@@joeds3775 I didn't go out looking for the gun, I got it from a family member.
Coming from a southeast Kentucky town of less than 1000 people, any officer here would be bullied for carrying that even as a backup. Japan is a weird place.
No, America is a weird place. It's a shit hole
This looks like what you'd get if you put a Walther PPK and a Mauser HSc together.
I have a stainless steel model I carry sometimes. Love that gun
The Sig P230JP is a nice-looking compact pistol with a very interesting history, it's a pity that it didn't meet the demands of the Japanese police for so many reasons and preferred revolvers instead(fun fact: the revolvers were also used in tokusatsu tv shows like Super Sentai and Kamen Rider along with semi-auto pistols).
And the legend of 9mm ultra lives on!
It's him. Pistol from Team Fortress 2
Informative.
Aah, back when the guns Sig made weren't trash.
1:40
This explains to me why in the early days of Detective Conan (serialized 1994), every cop character seemed to carry a 6-shooter.
As a child I was wondering why some characters later in the series carried semi-autos, I wondered if it was a rank thing at the time.
Used to? I saw alot of Nambu M60 but no SIGs when I was in tokyo. I don't think the contract was fullfilled.
Interesting, I didn't expect the .32 ACP pistol to be the police standard these days, but if the Japanese aren't very afraid of criminals with firearms, it'll probably be enough. Maybe even a weaker cartridge will be "better" because it will not kill a criminal who does not pose such a threat, just waves a knife, etc.