When Rory talks about granular knowledge of other countries, I always think he means not just factual knowledge, but the realization that they are real people.
Frum is among the most articulate and thoughtful commentators on North American politics. A rare thinker on the right with unimpeachable principles, who stood unbowed by the populist march of the Republicans. Always worth listening to, as this great interview demonstrates.
@@TDP-w3j Fair point. However, I'm not sure that constitutes some abandonment of principle. He believed the flawed/corrupted evidence that was put to the public of Hussein's purported WMD arsenal; as a mere speech-writer he wouldn't have seen much besides that. When that evidence turned out to be wrong he changed his mind, writing, "In the judgment I made on Iraq, I dangerously overestimated the prospects for foreign intervention to build a stable and decent replacement regime." (in an Atlantic article titled, "The Iraq War Reconsidered"). Being willing to admit one's errors seems like a principled, and often lacking, stance to me.
Another fascinating interview. Rory and Alastair your humanity shines through. Your ability to listen, challenge respectfully and reflect honestly is an example to us all. Thank you.
I appreciated Rory’s question about whether Frum had visited the countries he held forth on with “authority and confidence.” Just the right tone to bring the interview back to earth.
I thought that was a cheap, inane, and vacuous question. It's an absurd proposition that you can't have a strong opinion on a topic without direct lived experience. Rory has expressed many strong opinions on matters with which has no direct lived experience.
@@hylo1985 I didn't think Rory was saying you can't. I think he was just questioning -- said it scared him -- a smug certainty you see a lot among academic and intellectual elites, not always based on real knowledge of another country. I don't think we should be making decisions about other countries based on that kind of theoretical knowledge. Look at the Iraq invasion. Very famously we sent very few people over in the beginning who even spoke the language, much less understood the culture. (It led to a whole generation of young people studying Arabic.) It's one thing to have an opinion, anyone can have an opinion on anything, doesn't mean much. it's another to be making or influencing policy for countries you've just read about. America has a lot of power, hence a lot of responsibility to actually know what we're doing and who we are doing it with and for. It's why community policing and socially engaged medicine have become so important. You can't really effectively serve people if you don't know them.
At some point however common sense will come up against specialist or legitimized knowledge - until about the 1990's this implied qualified specialists - it is only recently the balance between academic theory and practical knowledge has become interdisciplinary knowledge. Experience of the real world must be a burden, an exasperating one, to anyone who goes abroad and returns 'changed'.
@@hylo1985 Really? You declare war on a country and you know literally nothing about it? It's not Rory who's in the wrong, it's the insouciance and impunity of Frum and many other neocons that's deeply disturbing.
Regarding David’s comment that JD Vance “was a very good mimic & mirror:” I was a CEO of psychiatric hospitals for 2 decades, & I found that the children of drug addicted parents often developed these traits as a mechanism for coping with their addicted parent. The parent is either drugged, or seeking drugs, & the only common denominator is very erratic behavior. The child learns that mimic/mirroring the parent is *safe* as a survival mechanism. They don’t actually develop their own values, even though “Memaw” tries to be a stabilizing factor in life. Memaw has a drug addicted child, & is dealing with that perceived failure.
The basic premise of this podcast is that it breaks down traditional tribal boundaries, and encourages us to listen to the sane members of the other side. I don't agree with everything he says (nor Alistair or Rory for that matter), and critically, it's very much not the point that I do, and we should resist the temptation to try to find that. What I agree with are his fundamental operating premises and his resistance to the threats to them. We can and should argue about the rest. As a father, the last few minutes was so poignant, and such a precious reminder of the fragility of life, that we owe it to ourselves and to those we love to protect and defend it through our actions and words, but to be cautious not to break it in doing so. Thank you for the interview - a refreshingly honest and reaffirming view across lines that sometimes divide us.
I agree. Lots of people watching seem to want boo-yeay reactions to the speakers. They are the best or the worst ever, ever- it's how social media and RUclips works. Instead Frum is a man to just listen to. Very articulate and fluent, sited in a very particular place in US politics. The point is not to agree or disagree. Maybe you will come away with 20 new questions. If so, great
There's a good US platform that manages to do what you commend Rory and Alastair for doing. It's called 2Way, hosted by Mark Halperin. It's still difficult for me personally to get past why 'anybody could vote for that man' as Alistair has said but they do manage civil conversation between opposing voters with excellent reporting by Mark. He called it accurately to the day regarding Biden's announcement and it's an excellent go to for the inside track. Two shows a day, the morning meeting features a Democrat strategist with the famous Sean Spicer. Learning to listen to the latter without throwing my phone against the wall is useful training for my humility levels.
Fascinating to hear someone provide the framework of personal experience informing their political position in such a reasoned I intellectual way. It enables one to understand and respect a viewpoint even if you completely disagree with it. This surely is the basis for real, balanced political discourse.
Hands down the best conversation I’ve seen with Frum.. another level guys. Love hearing the inside politics, shared backstage stuff.. especially the post-Brexit huddle! :)
First came across David Frum on the publication of his first book on Trump “ Trumpocracy” then” Trumpocalypse” both highly recommend.He is so informed and because of his knowledge of American politics going back to the country’s founding is able to set modern events in context and give much needed perspective. He is especially good on ageing and the temptation to resist change and view the past with rose tinted glasses.He has felt the cold drought of exile long before The Trump era which demonstrates courage in going against the tribe. He is also a calmer commentator than many of the doomsayers on both left and right( I think being half Canadian gives him this perspective).He and his colleague Anne Appelbaum are my go to commentators, both very informed and wise.
I do think that the uniquely interesting thing about TRIP is that it's not about winning or even presenting arguments - but so much as listening to people who hold different experiences and perspectives. We learn a bit about their background, who they are, how they have changed, what their passions are. I get the strong sense that this is what the podcast is for - not for A&R to condemn of praise the interviewees. It's to offer a window of unusual insight into powerful people. And on those grounds I think TRIP works very well.
This was a really interesting interview I found it particularly so because I am a Canadian and as a Canadian most of us hold very bitter feelings towards David frum. we remember his mother Barbara who was a wonderful journalist and so much more to the left and more caring and human then he was. I follow him and I read his stuff because he is quite intelligent but listening to this whole interview was an eye-opener. I was particularly struck by his comments about the Iraq War. His comment about when he found out that there were no weapons of mass destruction was that he was disappointed and then embarrassed. This was what he felt about a War that should never have happened where thousands of innocent Iraqis citizens died and thousands of American soldiers. I am so glad Rory pushed him on several issues and to a lesser extent Alistair that's what makes this podcast so great
What an amazing interview. Never heard of David before, but will look him up although we have very different politics. Very brave and courageous how he spoke of his daughter 🥰. Thank you.
The Bush war has such bad lingering effects. Britain France Germany have felt the flood of immigration that rivals anything they had prepared. When you destroy an infrastructure inside a country there's little choice for it's citizens. Rebuild the country? Some stay with very low to no income base, others flee the poverty conditions, hence the immigration to the west. Who's to blame? The easy answer is W but technically the countries that stood by W have reasons to regret their decision to support a war in Iraq It's was stupid then, and as countries are finding out, it has cost them instability inside their borders. Lesson learned?
Rory, can I put in a request for a voice from the American left please. Texas Congresswoman Jasmine Crocket is an amazing political performer and one to watch going forward - especially as she says Texas is in reality already a "blue" state but for its historic record of voter suppression.
@@t.alexanderlystad291 Agree. I'm an old lefty but I find him tedious and smug and predictable. Loved this interview because David Frum, even when I disagree with him, never is.
Fascinating conversation. Thank you! I always like hearing David Frum a lot. And I know you think you didn't challenge him, but this was an interview in which to me he did sound a little more challenged than usual and that brought out a lot of interesting things. I love his facility with language, he is incredibly bright, and I disagree with many things, but also am open to understanding and to the possibility that he is right and I am wrong. I think Trump has made wonderfully interesting alliances in the U.S. And the most interesting people are the Never Trump Republicans. I'm an old lefty but that's who I've preferred listening to since Trump was elected. I find the left kind of predictable and the knee-jerk partisan as boring and often as misleading as the misinformation on the other side. It's wonderful that this interesting group of people are so clear about what's important. Not policy, not how we fix things or what needs to be fixed, but why we join together to govern ourselves and the kind of instinctive sense of right and wrong, or maybe more accurate, the highest values, we all share.
Sorry David, but no that doesn’t change my opinion on Bush the man. That he had a good sense of humour is fine, but it really doesn’t change my position on what he did. It’s only the horror that is Trump that has made people like W look less appalling. Obviously Iraq and the failure to plan for its aftermath is unforgivable. Plenty of room for Alistair and Blair to bear responsibility, but Bush is the ultimate culprit. And his regime was callous, corrupt and painfully incompetent - from its inept response to Hurricane Katrina (which highlights all three elements, it was callous, it was incompetent and corrupt because it was in large part the result of Bush appointing a woefully unqualified ally to run FEMA), the attempt to destroy social security, disgraceful tactics involved in both elections (probably the two dirtiest campaigns I’ve ever seen) the corruption that caused the first election to be handed to Bush, the firing of US attorneys for prioritising the law over the whims of the regime - the list goes on and on. Not to mention the incompetence / wilful ignorance that made 9/11 possible (don’t worry, not arguing Trutherism here, I refer to the Bush administration dismissing terrorism as a strange obsession of Clinton’s and their consequent failure to act on clear intelligence warnings. It’s often forgotten since he initiated the War on Terror, but prior to 9/11 the Bush regime thought missile defence was the only thing that mattered in National Security (he originally opposed the creation of the Department for Homeland Security). W is right up there in the conversation when we’re talking worst presidents ever (Nixon and Trump are the only modern-day presidents who come close).
Commenting on the last part of interview: “asking Israeli enemies to stop fighting and start talking “.. this argument is massively invalid for few reasons 1- Palestinians repeatedly engaged in peace talks. 2- Israelis repeatedly broke international law and maintained illegal occupation and settlements. The only time Israelis conceded any sort of a deal was after suffering a military shock/defeat in 1973. 3- Israel repeatedly declined peace deals offered by the Arab countries and PLO since then. 4- Israelis equally have no interest in peace talks as it refuses the two state solutions and the one state solution where every person regardless of religion or ethnicity will have an equal vote. This makes the implicit goal of ethnically cleansing Palestinians not very implicit. Calling JD vance morally flexible while ending by blaming the Palestinians for the failure of peace talks is quite a remarkable stunt.
It's incredible that he can go to such ends to legitimise the systemic slaughter of defenceless children day after day after day - then in a minute flip to talking about the anguish of losing a daughter? What is wrong with these people? Where is their humanity? Clearly it extends to his daughter, clearly it extends to Israelis, I assume it extends to the victims of Hitler's concentration camps - why does it not extend to Palestinians?
I love how you leave out Munich, hijacking after hijacking for over a decade, Entebbe, school bombings, etc. etc. etc. We get BDS - which made sense and I supported as a good change in direction - but that was abandoned too. And what for? This stroke of brilliance on 10/7? You're as good as done now. Everyone hates you. Even your neighbors (all of whom refuse to take you) hate you. In retrospect, I guess it's some kind of miracle that India was able to get its independence from England, or blacks their freedom in South Africa, given they didn't follow the Palestinian's Blueprint of Brilliance when it comes to ending these kinds of things. And there is absolutely no reason to invest oneself in the Palestinian cause because they will inevitably take the sledgehammer to their balls once again at a crucial moment.
You intentionally did not listen to what Frum said. He did not say that Palestinians did not want to negotiate. He said that to their disadvantage they never took the deal that was on offer (1948/49, 1967, 1999/2000..) because they still believe that they can completely annihilate Israel (the solution to French Algeria..).
@chrisukr9996 So you are saying that he sympathises with the Palestinians By blaming them for the current situation. Does this not feel to you like people who blame the victims for their blight So if I come in and take over your house, then offered you your kitchen, it’s your fault if you want your house back ?
@@chrisukr9996 Complete nonsense but even IF it was true on what grounds does it justify genocide? It truly was ashame that more Jews didn't flee Germany in the 1930s. Does anyone ever say that? No, why? Because it focuses blame on the actions of the victims. The Palestinians, like many in Europe in the 40's, are the victims. They are not to blame for their massacre.
It’s a very short part of an otherwise interesting conversation but that completely one-sided view of Israel’s conduct in Gaza taints the interview. Understand why it was left unquestioned in the moment but it is still very disappointing. Especially given the earlier, quite poignant reflections of the value of war and efforts in Iraq
Shocked that a man who has experienced such grief with the loss of his child shows absolutely zero empathy when it comes to a war that has taken the life of thousands of children... the cognitive dissonance is baffling.
Britain bombed Dresden and Germany to end ww2 500000 civilian Germans died in the bombings, That is what war does, not nice not pretty, but that’s the reality, wake up from your dream.
How do you know he has no empathy for Palestinians? He said part of his grief that day was for the inevitable suffering Gazans had just brought on themselves. Even if one can't bear Netanyahu, even if one has always been incredibly critical of the settler movement, and skeptical of a lot of things about the Israeli government, it is hard to know how Israel could/should have responded. They are to this day under fire from Hamas and now Hezbollah -- every single day -- and only aren't dying en masse because they have the Iron Dome. It's an impossible situation with a long and complicated history and as critical as one is of the Israeli government, and especially the far right and the settler movement, Palestinian leaders have always been corrupt, Hamas is a hugely corrupt terrorist organization supported by Iran, and many of those poor kids are encouraged to grow up to be martyrs and kill Jews. I live in San Diego and can only imagine what the U.S. would do if we had a similar experience with cartels in Tijuana carrying out a massacre here, especially if they had the express intention of wiping us all out just because we're Americans. It is such a complex history and situation. I hoped very much Israel wouldn't conduct a ground invasion. I think it was a trap, though I could see why it was hard to resist. I also think Netanyahu is very likely prolonging this to stay in power, and it's horrible. But I don't really KNOW and would hate to have to have decided. But David was just answering one quick question. It wasn't a full conversation. I guess you mean that because he said he still supports Israel that means you think he supports every single thing they do and doesn't care about Palestinian suffering and I doubt that very much. Just because a person doesn't deliver the sound byte you were hoping for doesn't mean you know the full body of what they think. And David is clearly a very nuanced, and humane, thinker.
@@joancramer7484 "This war will and must end with everyone in Gaza living in tents" was a pretty horrific line from David, especially given the ongoing genocide. Everyone with a half brain understands that the situation in the Middle East is incredibly complex but none of that complexity justifies the way in which Gaza has been laid to waste. And it is precisely because of both the human suffering and the complexity that you don't make the kind of statements David Frum is making. Sure, not much time was spent on it, but if you're going to talk (even briefly) about Israel-Palestine, you don't start with a line that seems to not only justify but encourage a genocide; you don't say "they brought on themselves". I understand he probably meant Hamas and Hamas only - at least I hope - but, given that a disproportionate amount of suffering is falling squarely on innocent Palestinians, most of whom are women and children, and not just Hamas, the phrase 'bringing it on themselves' paints a completely inaccurate picture. Hamas brought it on innocent Palestinians. The kind of narrative Frum is painting (and I notice you are also painting in your comment) implies a huge degree of complicity between innocent Palestinians (a disproportionate amount of whom are children who did not 'vote for Hamas') and Hamas and implies that Palestinians deserve their suffering because of October the 7th. He continued with rhetoric that placed the blame for not achieving peace only on Palestinians both now and throughout history, which again is not only incredibly insensitive given the current situation but is just flatly historically illiterate. Do I know exactly what David thinks about the situation, what he meant by every word, what he feels about each one of them? No, obviously not. But that sort of information asymmetry is present when we talk about and judge any media/political figure. And honestly, given David Frum's politics, my bet is that he has pretty horrific attitudes and sentiments with regards to Palestine - though I'm sure he sees himself as simply a pragmatic defender of liberalism and human rights (or however he wants to spin it on the given day). Given how you framed the situation in your comment, it seems the case with you is not too dissimilar. One day, when this genocide has finally come to an end, I hope you seriously reflect on what you thought and did during it. I guarantee you, you won't be on the right side of history.
@@AlexMcEagle Genuinely asking as a layman who, aside from a cursory understanding of the Israel-Palestine conflict, is not sure. Could you describe why you believe Israel is committing the genocide of Palestinians? I often see people claiming this to be the case and would love your position on why you believe this to be the case, as I haven't seen it explicitly substantiated. To be clear, I am neutral on this claim of genocide and am not asking this in hostility, just would appreciate your view of things.
@@jaydenetc Sure! The typical definition for genocide per the Genocide Convention is as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Those acts include killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions indented to destroy the group, preventing births and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Basically you want to identify those material actions committed against the group and the intent. The material actions are pretty clear, Israeli bombings have been indiscriminate (whether that was the intent or not), critical infrastructure has been targeted, the blockade and control of water and electricity even before the war shows the Israeli state's ability to impose certain living conditions and they certain have now used that ability to devastating effect, and we've seen video evidence of serious bodily and mental harm (including heinous acts of sexual abuse) committed by Israeli soldiers. The death toll and displacement toll show that all of these actions have contributed to what with the right intent would be genocide, one can not deny that the people of Gaza as a group are being at least in effect destroyed (whether that be towards eventual total extermination - in terms of people or culture or maintenance of their community on their land - or as the genocide convention also includes within the definition of genocide towards simply part destruction). The tough bit comes when you consider intent. The problem is that leaders, especially in this day and age, don't usually explicitly signal their intent to commit genocide - that would be absurd. But there are certainly all the signs: members of Netenyahu's war cabinet who have been orchestrating the genocide have attended conferences on settling Gaza (which would require the destruction of the people there), many, including Netenyahu himself, have made references to biblical genocides to justify their war, and all in all genocidal rhetoric has been spouted by all those involved on numerous occasions, platforms, etc. In any case, it would be rather baffling to claim no intent but to carry on with waging a 'war' in such a way that it tends towards the destruction in whole or in part of Gaza and its people. That would be akin to treating someone horribly, imposing conditions on them under which you know they will likely die, and claim that you had no intent to kill them. Hope this helps explain the situation! I don't deny that you could charge certain groups like Hamas with also wanting (though obviously not being able) to commit a genocide on the Jewish people, and that you can get very pedantic about whether or not exact conditions/intent amount to genocide. But the picture is nonetheless pretty clear and to avoid clearly condemning this as a genocide incapacitates the international community, stripping them of the justification they would need to prevent a genocide from taking place. Just imagine if we had the opportunity to call the Shoah a genocide and do our best to prevent it, but a couple of pedants said we had to hold off till we had incontrovertible evidence that met their particular standards. We would have to wait for the genocide to have already been over before doing anything.
@@chrisukr9996 Exactly. People on the left who know nothing about it have bought into this simplistic frame -- I'd love for them to see what Hamas is doing every day to its own people, but it's so much simpler to see it as good guys and bad guys than it is to read some books about it, or go see for themselves.
My initial reaction to the first few moments that David Frum was on camera was disorientation, as in "wait, this is Alistair and Rory so it's UK politics; why is there what appears to be Canadian First Nations art on their guest's wall?' (David Frum's Torontonian origins had yet to be mentioned by a few seconds at that point; the art, for what it's worth at first glance, strikes me as Haida or Haida-influenced, i.e. more westerly.) Initial art disorientation aside, I've really enjoyed listening to this. It is a plethora of perspectives that are complex, changing, and have as many differences from my own as they do similarities. I appreciate David's reminders that we as political actors and the politics around us are all continuously in motion. Thank you for this interesting interview!
He's a very interesting guy, but I couldn't help grimacing at his comments on Israel. He showed a real lack of empathy or understanding for Palestinians that I wouldn't have thought possible from someone who is obviously intelligent.
Unfortunately, that attitude seems an inevitability with anyone to have been near the Oval Office. America's relationship with Israel is intoxicating to them in a way I'll never understand
Well, like him I have empathy for Palestinians but that does not prevent me and him from seeing their lack of political intelligence. Do you honestly believe that the strategy and actions of the self-chosen Palestinian leaders over the last 80 years served the interests of the Palestinian people and brought them closer to their own state and freedom?
@chrisukr9996 Do you believe Israel has always been a good faith actor? The Palestinians have made mistakes with poor organisation, lake of unity, and corrupt leadership, but it doesn't change the fact that as a whole, the Palestinians have been grossly mistreated and suffer abhorrent injustice under international law. Anyone who genuinely tries to understand the Palestinian case within its complete context will find it impossible not to be utterly opposed to the conduct of Israel.
I couldn’t agree more with Frum’s opposition to Trump, but I just think so many of his core beliefs are fundamentally incorrect or at least flawed. Though the enemy of my enemy is my friend, that friendship is not permanent. It only lasts until our joint enemy is defeated. At that point, our differences come more to the forefront. The war in Iraq, with apologies to Alistair with whom I agree on most things, was wrong from the start. Frum is well spoken and thoughtful, but I disagree with him on much of his thinking….
David, my dear, I agree that we are safer and more comfortable than we were, but we are CERTAINLY NOT free from the danger of a US-Russian nuclear exchange. (We are also not free of the danger of bio-microbial warfare.)
How can he talk about his grief for his daughter in one breath and the wipe out the grief of the Palestinians in another? They had their country given away and they have a right to resist those who would wipe them out. Accepting their ‘occupation’ means accepting their annihilation. Who would choose that? Who would choose that on top of everything they’ve already lost. Resistance is an entirely natural response to 75 years of violence and oppression. This man speaks of grief for his daughter while women listen to their children being burned alive in a school? While whole families are wiped out while I eat my breakfast. The world is too small to be this awful. No one is more important than anyone else. No one.
You obviously don't know a lot about it. It is a long and incredibly complicated history. Some of the best diplomats and minds in the world have tried to work it out for many, many years. He was saying the massacre was self-defeating and Israel's response predictable. There is a lot to criticize Israel for, and Palestinians have never been served well by their leaders, always self-defeating. Both of those things can be true at the same time. It's ridiculous to make it a simple matter of good guys and bad, though I guess that must seem simpler to you. You do know that Hamas revels in the deaths of Palestinians because it empowers and enriches them and hurts Israel. You do know that Palestinians who have tried to protest what Hamas is doing to them right now are being murdered by Hamas. That Hamas is stealing aid and attacking aid convoys. It is extremely complicated and you might crack a book or two.
David Frum has always been an interesting man and his sister Barbara Frum was a high profile news person in Canada for many years and was very well loved. Very good interview.
Frum punched down at single mothers, fought against same sex marriage, and ignores his First Nations adopted brother. Notice that he did not have 1 criticism or reservation about Israel's response to Hamas' crimes.
You are all ignoring JD Vance’s comments on women. He has said women should stay in violent marriages. He has said the Democratic Party is lead by unmarried women with cats and the job of post-menopausal women is to care for their grandchildren.
I would remind the commentators that we Americans didn't create the "master of the universe" mindset. We inherited it from the Brits. And we will likely face the same outcome. But not tomorrow.
An interesting interview with some good insight, although not everything is insightful and stands up to scrutiny. Sometimes being too close to influential powers isn’t helpful or insightful. That applies to all three gentlemen on this podcast Rory, who I respect for his intelligence, knowledge and compassion, makes a great point about his recent trip to the USA and policy makers not visiting the countries they aspire to influence. I wonder how close to home he was during the general election campaign
I find it curious that people can ask, "Why?" when it comes to the Palestinian reaction to the apartheid, killing of women and children, and having their homes and belongings stolen for decades.
Thank you for this excellent interview. David is brilliant at being authoritative on infinitely more than he should be. This is something he freely admits. And yet, he does nothing to temper the confidence with which he expresses his views. Shame on me for being confused by his "nuanced" opinions. When he speaks, I can't make out the forest for the trees he analyses so deftly. Love the guy but . . .
Wow. David cuts straight too it! He's so sharp and really worth following, but he does seem blind to the Israel's unwillingness to accept the peace that they were offered. The settlements were the problem that Palestinians were telling me were going to cause an infitada when I was there back in the 1990s.
I do wonder about what ideas of Henry George are the ones he is saying are "crackpot". If there's one thing I really got from reading Henry George, it's that allowing monopolisation of anything that leads to unearned incomes gives inequality of opportunity, and leads to poverty and economic and societal decline. The 2008 financial crisis would have been avoided if we had implemented a decent level of land value tax instead of taxing work, for example.
It is honestly hard to tell who JD Vance is. He is so eager to please whatever audience he is presently courting that he seems willing to say just about anything. He is so desperate to be liked that he will rent himself out to just about anybody or any idea. He is a paler version of George Santos.
Rory is right to question the ‘confidence’ more accurately arrogance of those who make decisions about the lives and futures of people of other and usually poorer peoples but why oh why don’t you just interview some of those people from such nations your selves on your excellent podcasts?
Extremely moving , what a great guy, I used to dislike him during the Bush years . 😊 there is hope that far right doctrine will be challenged in the end from within.
I think his reply was as a realist, "What did Hamas expect to happen?" though I would have liked Rory and Alistair to probe him on his thoughts about Netanyahu, given his Trumpian connections, because the Israeli reaction has clearly been shaped by him as PM trying to save his own skin.
How about you stop being an arrogant fascist who thinks your feelings should be the determining factor of who gets a voice? I going to bet that your understanding of the Israel-Palestine wars did not hold a candle to any of the the people in this podcast, so maybe some humility and eagerness to learn should become your mantra.
"it's not whether or not trump is a conservative, he's unacceptable". It's simple, no discussion needed, the guy is UNACCEPTABLE, its as simple as that.
I do naturally like Frum, and agree he is a thoughtful person, but overhanging this is the knowledge that he (and Campbell) played a role in launching a criminal war of aggression which killed, at a provable minimum, 151,000 human beings, ruined the lives of many more, and devastated regional stability for the long term. Even with personal participation in a clamor for war based on fraudulent “evidence”, Frum managed to add gas to the fire in Gaza with ill considered public pronouncements on, of all things, veracity of evidence.
A brilliant man in many respects, and yet towards the end, his explanation that it's "Israel's enemies" fault is risible. Once a neo-con, always a neo-con I suppose. :-(
It doesn't matter how many republican turn against Trump - even if he loses he will hang over the party like Blair & Thatcher have decades after leaving office, with a solid voting base like Boris & Obama. Any future party nominee will have to secure their support to have a real chance of winning
Enjoyed the interview until David comes out with the line when referring to Israel-Palestine “(7th Oct) I thought what the hell are they (Hamas) this war will end and must end with everyone in Gaza living in tents”. One hell of a statement, not even an ounce of sympathy for the 20,000 children killed in Gaza within the last year
David Frum needs to go to the CVS, or Shoppers Drug Mart (in Canada), and buy some razor blades and shaving cream. This look looks like Steve Bannon. Sleeping in your clothes on a red-eye ain't the best look.
It’s fascinating to see how someone can feel all this grief for the lose of his daughter, can not Consider the grief of all the Palestinian mothers and fathers for their children.
hilariously blaming Israel's opponents for lack of peace - ignoring the Oslo accords & all the hope in the 90s being destroyed by Israeli extremists assassinated their own president; whilst also ignoring decades of illegal settlement building
Who is more qualified, more expert, and has more right to an opinion, is a kind one-upmanship game academics like to play to make themselves feel superior to others.It's obnoxious. Just because someone has spent less time "on the ground" as it were, doesn't mean they're not entitled to have an opinion, or to be taken seriously. Reading widely, listening to the experience of others counts too. Rory should know better.
Rory is just saying that most of the advisors have a theoretical understanding and the power to guide huge military inventions, not necessarily knowing anything at all about the history, the people, the religious context of cultures of the people they plan to push. This was a common criticism of Afghan and Iraqi interventions. Billions were spent trying to get local people to do impossible things for impossible reasons. Rory works now in some of those targetting areas and sees the damage, money and delusion that forgeign policy golden boys wasted over so many years. It broke his heart. His point is fair enough. A board room in the US is very divorced from the reality on the ground.
I totally agree about his apparent lack of understanding of the suffering of the Palestinians since the Nakba in 1948…but what saddens me is this unquestioning belief in neo-liberal economics. His comment about why should I buy cotton locally when I can buy it cheaper overseas? with no thought at all of the implications of that on the people who grow cotton in his own backyard….if you believe in free trade, good for you, but you morally and ethically have to make sure that your own communities don’t suffer just so you can get your cotton cheaper! That concern for your fellow human beings is more important surely than just money! That’s my problem with the USA…the business of the USA is business, they say but you go look at any of their cities and the contrast between the rich and the poor is devastating and it’s even worse than that in rural America. David is a charming, thoughtful witty guy I have no doubt but how he can ignore the wretched state of so many of his fellow Americans is just so depressing.
Texas humor is remarkable. My husband had the same bluntness but without being offensive to anyone. I can see why CEOs and celebrities are relocating, not just for tax benefits and deregulation. 😍🤩🤠🤓
This must be sarcasm. He didn’t analyse anything. He gave the lousiest real-politik excuse for the mass killing of innocent civilians. Rory was right to call him out for his weird arrogance and armchair politicking when it comes to places he knows frighteningly little about. He was wrong about Iraq and he’s wrong about Palestine.
This is one of the most disingenuous humans I have ever listened to or met! He knows how to write but he crafts words to cloud the mind so it doesn’t see truth !!!!!
Really surprised at your hatred towards Jordan Peterson. He would be a great person to have on Leading but I have to say I think he would intellectually wipe the floor with you. Surely if you bad mouth someone they should have the right to reply. You can do better than this! Daniel, Leeds.
This incarnation of Peterson couldn’t wipe the floor with a toddler in the minds of anyone but the most addled grifter. Back in 2015/16 perhaps, when he was still compos mentis and giving brilliant lectures, but now he would squeak vague pseudo-intellectual platitudes and dogwhistles to be lapped up by vacant reactionaries.
@LeadingTRIP I find these interviews very insightful. Thanks for doing them. I would love to see you interview inequality economist @garyseconomics (Gary Stevenson). It would great great to get your take on the growing inequality in our country (and other western democracies) and his proposed solutions.
When Rory talks about granular knowledge of other countries, I always think he means not just factual knowledge, but the realization that they are real people.
Exactly
Frum is among the most articulate and thoughtful commentators on North American politics. A rare thinker on the right with unimpeachable principles, who stood unbowed by the populist march of the Republicans. Always worth listening to, as this great interview demonstrates.
He’s brilliant.
Unimpeachable principles? The guys a brilliant thinker but he wrote some of Bush’s most provocative pro-war speeches.
@@TDP-w3j Fair point. However, I'm not sure that constitutes some abandonment of principle. He believed the flawed/corrupted evidence that was put to the public of Hussein's purported WMD arsenal; as a mere speech-writer he wouldn't have seen much besides that. When that evidence turned out to be wrong he changed his mind, writing, "In the judgment I made on Iraq, I dangerously overestimated the prospects for foreign intervention to build a stable and decent replacement regime." (in an Atlantic article titled, "The Iraq War Reconsidered"). Being willing to admit one's errors seems like a principled, and often lacking, stance to me.
His principles don't extend to the plight of the Palestinians sadly.
Clever and interesting man. Zero empathy for the Palestinians though despite his experience and musings on grief. @liamdevine8063
Another fascinating interview. Rory and Alastair your humanity shines through. Your ability to listen, challenge respectfully and reflect honestly is an example to us all. Thank you.
I appreciated Rory’s question about whether Frum had visited the countries he held forth on with “authority and confidence.” Just the right tone to bring the interview back to earth.
I thought that was a cheap, inane, and vacuous question. It's an absurd proposition that you can't have a strong opinion on a topic without direct lived experience. Rory has expressed many strong opinions on matters with which has no direct lived experience.
@@hylo1985 I didn't think Rory was saying you can't. I think he was just questioning -- said it scared him -- a smug certainty you see a lot among academic and intellectual elites, not always based on real knowledge of another country. I don't think we should be making decisions about other countries based on that kind of theoretical knowledge. Look at the Iraq invasion. Very famously we sent very few people over in the beginning who even spoke the language, much less understood the culture. (It led to a whole generation of young people studying Arabic.) It's one thing to have an opinion, anyone can have an opinion on anything, doesn't mean much. it's another to be making or influencing policy for countries you've just read about. America has a lot of power, hence a lot of responsibility to actually know what we're doing and who we are doing it with and for. It's why community policing and socially engaged medicine have become so important. You can't really effectively serve people if you don't know them.
At some point however common sense will come up against specialist or legitimized knowledge - until about the 1990's this implied qualified specialists - it is only recently the balance between academic theory and practical knowledge has become interdisciplinary knowledge. Experience of the real world must be a burden, an exasperating one, to anyone who goes abroad and returns 'changed'.
@@hylo1985 Really? You declare war on a country and you know literally nothing about it? It's not Rory who's in the wrong, it's the insouciance and impunity of Frum and many other neocons that's deeply disturbing.
@@hylo1985and you think you can? Do you think you can understand a country or a place by reading about it ? I was so glad Rory made that statement
Regarding David’s comment that JD Vance “was a very good mimic & mirror:” I was a CEO of psychiatric hospitals for 2 decades, & I found that the children of drug addicted parents often developed these traits as a mechanism for coping with their addicted parent. The parent is either drugged, or seeking drugs, & the only common denominator is very erratic behavior. The child learns that mimic/mirroring the parent is *safe* as a survival mechanism. They don’t actually develop their own values, even though “Memaw” tries to be a stabilizing factor in life. Memaw has a drug addicted child, & is dealing with that perceived failure.
I'm so pleased that David Frum is a guest. He is a decent human being
"He is a decent human being" - except when it comes to the Palestinians.
@@EnglishroG 👍
The basic premise of this podcast is that it breaks down traditional tribal boundaries, and encourages us to listen to the sane members of the other side. I don't agree with everything he says (nor Alistair or Rory for that matter), and critically, it's very much not the point that I do, and we should resist the temptation to try to find that. What I agree with are his fundamental operating premises and his resistance to the threats to them. We can and should argue about the rest. As a father, the last few minutes was so poignant, and such a precious reminder of the fragility of life, that we owe it to ourselves and to those we love to protect and defend it through our actions and words, but to be cautious not to break it in doing so. Thank you for the interview - a refreshingly honest and reaffirming view across lines that sometimes divide us.
I agree. Lots of people watching seem to want boo-yeay reactions to the speakers. They are the best or the worst ever, ever- it's how social media and RUclips works. Instead Frum is a man to just listen to. Very articulate and fluent, sited in a very particular place in US politics. The point is not to agree or disagree. Maybe you will come away with 20 new questions. If so, great
There's a good US platform that manages to do what you commend Rory and Alastair for doing. It's called 2Way, hosted by Mark Halperin. It's still difficult for me personally to get past why 'anybody could vote for that man' as Alistair has said but they do manage civil conversation between opposing voters with excellent reporting by Mark. He called it accurately to the day regarding Biden's announcement and it's an excellent go to for the inside track. Two shows a day, the morning meeting features a Democrat strategist with the famous Sean Spicer. Learning to listen to the latter without throwing my phone against the wall is useful training for my humility levels.
Fascinating to hear someone provide the framework of personal experience informing their political position in such a reasoned I intellectual way. It enables one to understand and respect a viewpoint even if you completely disagree with it. This surely is the basis for real, balanced political discourse.
The last two Republican Presidents have been utter disasters
Further back, since Reagan destroying Unions and the middle class.
Barbara Frum, Davids mother was a canadian jounalist of the highest order of integrity.
TY, just like Pelosi, excellence doesn't fall far from the tree. Her book is out.
Hands down the best conversation I’ve seen with Frum.. another level guys. Love hearing the inside politics, shared backstage stuff.. especially the post-Brexit huddle! :)
First came across David Frum on the publication of his first book on Trump “ Trumpocracy” then” Trumpocalypse” both highly recommend.He is so informed and because of his knowledge of American politics going back to the country’s founding is able to set modern events in context and give much needed perspective. He is especially good on ageing and the temptation to resist change and view the past with rose tinted glasses.He has felt the cold drought of exile long before The Trump era which demonstrates courage in going against the tribe. He is also a calmer commentator than many of the doomsayers on both left and right( I think being half Canadian gives him this perspective).He and his colleague Anne Appelbaum are my go to commentators, both very informed and wise.
David’s advice, “Believe more in your own children” really hit me. Good word.
I do think that the uniquely interesting thing about TRIP is that it's not about winning or even presenting arguments - but so much as listening to people who hold different experiences and perspectives. We learn a bit about their background, who they are, how they have changed, what their passions are. I get the strong sense that this is what the podcast is for - not for A&R to condemn of praise the interviewees. It's to offer a window of unusual insight into powerful people. And on those grounds I think TRIP works very well.
David is one of the great thinkers and commentators of our time. Never fails to impress.
Thank you. 👍
We are all just walking each other home - Ram Das.
Thank you, a strong intelligence incredible communicator, very cable and very moving.
This was a really interesting interview I found it particularly so because I am a Canadian and as a Canadian most of us hold very bitter feelings towards David frum. we remember his mother Barbara who was a wonderful journalist and so much more to the left and more caring and human then he was. I follow him and I read his stuff because he is quite intelligent but listening to this whole interview was an eye-opener. I was particularly struck by his comments about the Iraq War. His comment about when he found out that there were no weapons of mass destruction was that he was disappointed and then embarrassed. This was what he felt about a War that should never have happened where thousands of innocent Iraqis citizens died and thousands of American soldiers. I am so glad Rory pushed him on several issues and to a lesser extent Alistair that's what makes this podcast so great
That business about neocons and morality still gets me. What the hell do Americans mean by morality?
What an amazing interview. Never heard of David before, but will look him up although we have very different politics. Very brave and courageous how he spoke of his daughter 🥰. Thank you.
TRIP greatly enriches my life - just love it. Very special interview. Thanks so much. ❤
Again another fabulous guest and brilliant podcast - crying at the end there.
I really enjoyed this. Thank you. 👍🏻
Such a fascinating interview with great questions and as usual - such astute analysis from one of my favourite journalists/writers - David Frum!!
This is five-star good. And not only because of Frum. The questions were very insightful. Well Done!
"Believe more in your children . . . they are ambassadors from the future."
Since the Internet, last couple of generations are exponentially smarter earlier than older greedy farts. 🤮
The Bush war has such bad lingering effects. Britain France Germany have felt the flood of immigration that rivals anything they had prepared. When you destroy an infrastructure inside a country there's little choice for it's citizens. Rebuild the country? Some stay with very low to no income base, others flee the poverty conditions, hence the immigration to the west.
Who's to blame? The easy answer is W but technically the countries that stood by W have reasons to regret their decision to support a war in Iraq
It's was stupid then, and as countries are finding out, it has cost them instability inside their borders.
Lesson learned?
Only the NYT was reporting on Hix, Inspector's finding of NO weapons of mass destruction. Hope George and Dick fess up on day.
Rory was on top form here
Rory, can I put in a request for a voice from the American left please. Texas Congresswoman Jasmine Crocket is an amazing political performer and one to watch going forward - especially as she says Texas is in reality already a "blue" state but for its historic record of voter suppression.
Rory himself made the case for inviting voices from the American left. Let's hope that's what they do.
You need Jon Favreau on! Obama's speechwriter not the film one...
Agreed he's brilliant!
Both would be good
Too tribal
@@t.alexanderlystad291 Agree. I'm an old lefty but I find him tedious and smug and predictable. Loved this interview because David Frum, even when I disagree with him, never is.
Fascinating conversation. Thank you! I always like hearing David Frum a lot. And I know you think you didn't challenge him, but this was an interview in which to me he did sound a little more challenged than usual and that brought out a lot of interesting things. I love his facility with language, he is incredibly bright, and I disagree with many things, but also am open to understanding and to the possibility that he is right and I am wrong. I think Trump has made wonderfully interesting alliances in the U.S. And the most interesting people are the Never Trump Republicans. I'm an old lefty but that's who I've preferred listening to since Trump was elected. I find the left kind of predictable and the knee-jerk partisan as boring and often as misleading as the misinformation on the other side. It's wonderful that this interesting group of people are so clear about what's important. Not policy, not how we fix things or what needs to be fixed, but why we join together to govern ourselves and the kind of instinctive sense of right and wrong, or maybe more accurate, the highest values, we all share.
Sorry David, but no that doesn’t change my opinion on Bush the man. That he had a good sense of humour is fine, but it really doesn’t change my position on what he did. It’s only the horror that is Trump that has made people like W look less appalling.
Obviously Iraq and the failure to plan for its aftermath is unforgivable. Plenty of room for Alistair and Blair to bear responsibility, but Bush is the ultimate culprit. And his regime was callous, corrupt and painfully incompetent - from its inept response to Hurricane Katrina (which highlights all three elements, it was callous, it was incompetent and corrupt because it was in large part the result of Bush appointing a woefully unqualified ally to run FEMA), the attempt to destroy social security, disgraceful tactics involved in both elections (probably the two dirtiest campaigns I’ve ever seen) the corruption that caused the first election to be handed to Bush, the firing of US attorneys for prioritising the law over the whims of the regime - the list goes on and on.
Not to mention the incompetence / wilful ignorance that made 9/11 possible (don’t worry, not arguing Trutherism here, I refer to the Bush administration dismissing terrorism as a strange obsession of Clinton’s and their consequent failure to act on clear intelligence warnings. It’s often forgotten since he initiated the War on Terror, but prior to 9/11 the Bush regime thought missile defence was the only thing that mattered in National Security (he originally opposed the creation of the Department for Homeland Security).
W is right up there in the conversation when we’re talking worst presidents ever (Nixon and Trump are the only modern-day presidents who come close).
Commenting on the last part of interview: “asking Israeli enemies to stop fighting and start talking “.. this argument is massively invalid for few reasons
1- Palestinians repeatedly engaged in peace talks.
2- Israelis repeatedly broke international law and maintained illegal occupation and settlements.
The only time Israelis conceded any sort of a deal was after suffering a military shock/defeat in 1973.
3- Israel repeatedly declined peace deals offered by the Arab countries and PLO since then.
4- Israelis equally have no interest in peace talks as it refuses the two state solutions and the one state solution where every person regardless of religion or ethnicity will have an equal vote. This makes the implicit goal of ethnically cleansing Palestinians not very implicit.
Calling JD vance morally flexible while ending by blaming the Palestinians for the failure of peace talks is quite a remarkable stunt.
It's incredible that he can go to such ends to legitimise the systemic slaughter of defenceless children day after day after day - then in a minute flip to talking about the anguish of losing a daughter?
What is wrong with these people? Where is their humanity? Clearly it extends to his daughter, clearly it extends to Israelis, I assume it extends to the victims of Hitler's concentration camps - why does it not extend to Palestinians?
I love how you leave out Munich, hijacking after hijacking for over a decade, Entebbe, school bombings, etc. etc. etc. We get BDS - which made sense and I supported as a good change in direction - but that was abandoned too. And what for? This stroke of brilliance on 10/7? You're as good as done now. Everyone hates you. Even your neighbors (all of whom refuse to take you) hate you. In retrospect, I guess it's some kind of miracle that India was able to get its independence from England, or blacks their freedom in South Africa, given they didn't follow the Palestinian's Blueprint of Brilliance when it comes to ending these kinds of things. And there is absolutely no reason to invest oneself in the Palestinian cause because they will inevitably take the sledgehammer to their balls once again at a crucial moment.
You intentionally did not listen to what Frum said. He did not say that Palestinians did not want to negotiate. He said that to their disadvantage they never took the deal that was on offer (1948/49, 1967, 1999/2000..) because they still believe that they can completely annihilate Israel (the solution to French Algeria..).
@chrisukr9996
So you are saying that he sympathises with the Palestinians
By blaming them for the current situation.
Does this not feel to you like people who blame the victims for their blight
So if I come in and take over your house, then offered you your kitchen, it’s your fault if you want your house back ?
@@chrisukr9996 Complete nonsense but even IF it was true on what grounds does it justify genocide?
It truly was ashame that more Jews didn't flee Germany in the 1930s. Does anyone ever say that? No, why? Because it focuses blame on the actions of the victims.
The Palestinians, like many in Europe in the 40's, are the victims. They are not to blame for their massacre.
It’s a very short part of an otherwise interesting conversation but that completely one-sided view of Israel’s conduct in Gaza taints the interview. Understand why it was left unquestioned in the moment but it is still very disappointing. Especially given the earlier, quite poignant reflections of the value of war and efforts in Iraq
What was unbalanced about it? "Make the best peace you can" is hardly a genocidal statement!
Shocked that a man who has experienced such grief with the loss of his child shows absolutely zero empathy when it comes to a war that has taken the life of thousands of children... the cognitive dissonance is baffling.
Britain bombed Dresden and Germany to end ww2 500000 civilian Germans died in the bombings,
That is what war does, not nice not pretty, but that’s the reality, wake up from your dream.
How do you know he has no empathy for Palestinians? He said part of his grief that day was for the inevitable suffering Gazans had just brought on themselves. Even if one can't bear Netanyahu, even if one has always been incredibly critical of the settler movement, and skeptical of a lot of things about the Israeli government, it is hard to know how Israel could/should have responded. They are to this day under fire from Hamas and now Hezbollah -- every single day -- and only aren't dying en masse because they have the Iron Dome. It's an impossible situation with a long and complicated history and as critical as one is of the Israeli government, and especially the far right and the settler movement, Palestinian leaders have always been corrupt, Hamas is a hugely corrupt terrorist organization supported by Iran, and many of those poor kids are encouraged to grow up to be martyrs and kill Jews. I live in San Diego and can only imagine what the U.S. would do if we had a similar experience with cartels in Tijuana carrying out a massacre here, especially if they had the express intention of wiping us all out just because we're Americans. It is such a complex history and situation. I hoped very much Israel wouldn't conduct a ground invasion. I think it was a trap, though I could see why it was hard to resist. I also think Netanyahu is very likely prolonging this to stay in power, and it's horrible. But I don't really KNOW and would hate to have to have decided. But David was just answering one quick question. It wasn't a full conversation. I guess you mean that because he said he still supports Israel that means you think he supports every single thing they do and doesn't care about Palestinian suffering and I doubt that very much. Just because a person doesn't deliver the sound byte you were hoping for doesn't mean you know the full body of what they think. And David is clearly a very nuanced, and humane, thinker.
@@joancramer7484 "This war will and must end with everyone in Gaza living in tents" was a pretty horrific line from David, especially given the ongoing genocide. Everyone with a half brain understands that the situation in the Middle East is incredibly complex but none of that complexity justifies the way in which Gaza has been laid to waste. And it is precisely because of both the human suffering and the complexity that you don't make the kind of statements David Frum is making. Sure, not much time was spent on it, but if you're going to talk (even briefly) about Israel-Palestine, you don't start with a line that seems to not only justify but encourage a genocide; you don't say "they brought on themselves". I understand he probably meant Hamas and Hamas only - at least I hope - but, given that a disproportionate amount of suffering is falling squarely on innocent Palestinians, most of whom are women and children, and not just Hamas, the phrase 'bringing it on themselves' paints a completely inaccurate picture. Hamas brought it on innocent Palestinians. The kind of narrative Frum is painting (and I notice you are also painting in your comment) implies a huge degree of complicity between innocent Palestinians (a disproportionate amount of whom are children who did not 'vote for Hamas') and Hamas and implies that Palestinians deserve their suffering because of October the 7th. He continued with rhetoric that placed the blame for not achieving peace only on Palestinians both now and throughout history, which again is not only incredibly insensitive given the current situation but is just flatly historically illiterate. Do I know exactly what David thinks about the situation, what he meant by every word, what he feels about each one of them? No, obviously not. But that sort of information asymmetry is present when we talk about and judge any media/political figure. And honestly, given David Frum's politics, my bet is that he has pretty horrific attitudes and sentiments with regards to Palestine - though I'm sure he sees himself as simply a pragmatic defender of liberalism and human rights (or however he wants to spin it on the given day). Given how you framed the situation in your comment, it seems the case with you is not too dissimilar. One day, when this genocide has finally come to an end, I hope you seriously reflect on what you thought and did during it. I guarantee you, you won't be on the right side of history.
@@AlexMcEagle Genuinely asking as a layman who, aside from a cursory understanding of the Israel-Palestine conflict, is not sure. Could you describe why you believe Israel is committing the genocide of Palestinians? I often see people claiming this to be the case and would love your position on why you believe this to be the case, as I haven't seen it explicitly substantiated. To be clear, I am neutral on this claim of genocide and am not asking this in hostility, just would appreciate your view of things.
@@jaydenetc Sure! The typical definition for genocide per the Genocide Convention is as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." Those acts include killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions indented to destroy the group, preventing births and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Basically you want to identify those material actions committed against the group and the intent. The material actions are pretty clear, Israeli bombings have been indiscriminate (whether that was the intent or not), critical infrastructure has been targeted, the blockade and control of water and electricity even before the war shows the Israeli state's ability to impose certain living conditions and they certain have now used that ability to devastating effect, and we've seen video evidence of serious bodily and mental harm (including heinous acts of sexual abuse) committed by Israeli soldiers. The death toll and displacement toll show that all of these actions have contributed to what with the right intent would be genocide, one can not deny that the people of Gaza as a group are being at least in effect destroyed (whether that be towards eventual total extermination - in terms of people or culture or maintenance of their community on their land - or as the genocide convention also includes within the definition of genocide towards simply part destruction). The tough bit comes when you consider intent. The problem is that leaders, especially in this day and age, don't usually explicitly signal their intent to commit genocide - that would be absurd. But there are certainly all the signs: members of Netenyahu's war cabinet who have been orchestrating the genocide have attended conferences on settling Gaza (which would require the destruction of the people there), many, including Netenyahu himself, have made references to biblical genocides to justify their war, and all in all genocidal rhetoric has been spouted by all those involved on numerous occasions, platforms, etc. In any case, it would be rather baffling to claim no intent but to carry on with waging a 'war' in such a way that it tends towards the destruction in whole or in part of Gaza and its people. That would be akin to treating someone horribly, imposing conditions on them under which you know they will likely die, and claim that you had no intent to kill them. Hope this helps explain the situation! I don't deny that you could charge certain groups like Hamas with also wanting (though obviously not being able) to commit a genocide on the Jewish people, and that you can get very pedantic about whether or not exact conditions/intent amount to genocide. But the picture is nonetheless pretty clear and to avoid clearly condemning this as a genocide incapacitates the international community, stripping them of the justification they would need to prevent a genocide from taking place. Just imagine if we had the opportunity to call the Shoah a genocide and do our best to prevent it, but a couple of pedants said we had to hold off till we had incontrovertible evidence that met their particular standards. We would have to wait for the genocide to have already been over before doing anything.
Wow, literally all of his empathy and basic humanity disappears when talking about Gaza... I'm shocked
Exactly ....his true colors came to life
Did it? He underlined that the events there were a tragedy..
@@chrisukr9996 Exactly. People on the left who know nothing about it have bought into this simplistic frame -- I'd love for them to see what Hamas is doing every day to its own people, but it's so much simpler to see it as good guys and bad guys than it is to read some books about it, or go see for themselves.
@@chrisukr9996 He's a Jew.
What an interesting speaker, please get him back soon
Always love David F. D.A. NYC
My initial reaction to the first few moments that David Frum was on camera was disorientation, as in "wait, this is Alistair and Rory so it's UK politics; why is there what appears to be Canadian First Nations art on their guest's wall?' (David Frum's Torontonian origins had yet to be mentioned by a few seconds at that point; the art, for what it's worth at first glance, strikes me as Haida or Haida-influenced, i.e. more westerly.)
Initial art disorientation aside, I've really enjoyed listening to this. It is a plethora of perspectives that are complex, changing, and have as many differences from my own as they do similarities. I appreciate David's reminders that we as political actors and the politics around us are all continuously in motion. Thank you for this interesting interview!
FRUM FORUM! I enjoyed commenting and debating on that site back in 2008-11 (or whatever the timeline actually was).
He's a very interesting guy, but I couldn't help grimacing at his comments on Israel. He showed a real lack of empathy or understanding for Palestinians that I wouldn't have thought possible from someone who is obviously intelligent.
zero empathy, almost sociopathic
Unfortunately, that attitude seems an inevitability with anyone to have been near the Oval Office. America's relationship with Israel is intoxicating to them in a way I'll never understand
Well, like him I have empathy for Palestinians but that does not prevent me and him from seeing their lack of political intelligence. Do you honestly believe that the strategy and actions of the self-chosen Palestinian leaders over the last 80 years served the interests of the Palestinian people and brought them closer to their own state and freedom?
@chrisukr9996 Do you believe Israel has always been a good faith actor?
The Palestinians have made mistakes with poor organisation, lake of unity, and corrupt leadership, but it doesn't change the fact that as a whole, the Palestinians have been grossly mistreated and suffer abhorrent injustice under international law.
Anyone who genuinely tries to understand the Palestinian case within its complete context will find it impossible not to be utterly opposed to the conduct of Israel.
@@chrisukr9996 So well put.
Views on Israel were pretty abhorrent. Saying committing genocide on children was the only way Israel could respond
Brilliant interview. Thank you! How touching when talked about believing in the young because they're the ambassadors of the future.❤
Shame about what the US did to Iraq.
I agree, that really was a wonderful interview, with an extremely thoughtful, intelligent and insightful person. Thank you.
Have him on again
I couldn’t agree more with Frum’s opposition to Trump, but I just think so many of his core beliefs are fundamentally incorrect or at least flawed. Though the enemy of my enemy is my friend, that friendship is not permanent. It only lasts until our joint enemy is defeated. At that point, our differences come more to the forefront. The war in Iraq, with apologies to Alistair with whom I agree on most things, was wrong from the start. Frum is well spoken and thoughtful, but I disagree with him on much of his thinking….
Brilliant gentleman. Thank you for sharing.
David, my dear, I agree that we are safer and more comfortable than we were, but we are CERTAINLY NOT free from the danger of a US-Russian nuclear exchange. (We are also not free of the danger of bio-microbial warfare.)
I fear I'm closer to suffering from the threat of a nuclear exchange NOW than I ever was in the days of the Cold War.
Frum is a legend. You are a voice of reason sir. Thanks for your great work and writing.
How can he talk about his grief for his daughter in one breath and the wipe out the grief of the Palestinians in another? They had their country given away and they have a right to resist those who would wipe them out. Accepting their ‘occupation’ means accepting their annihilation. Who would choose that? Who would choose that on top of everything they’ve already lost. Resistance is an entirely natural response to 75 years of violence and oppression. This man speaks of grief for his daughter while women listen to their children being burned alive in a school? While whole families are wiped out while I eat my breakfast. The world is too small to be this awful. No one is more important than anyone else. No one.
You obviously don't know a lot about it. It is a long and incredibly complicated history. Some of the best diplomats and minds in the world have tried to work it out for many, many years. He was saying the massacre was self-defeating and Israel's response predictable. There is a lot to criticize Israel for, and Palestinians have never been served well by their leaders, always self-defeating. Both of those things can be true at the same time. It's ridiculous to make it a simple matter of good guys and bad, though I guess that must seem simpler to you. You do know that Hamas revels in the deaths of Palestinians because it empowers and enriches them and hurts Israel. You do know that Palestinians who have tried to protest what Hamas is doing to them right now are being murdered by Hamas. That Hamas is stealing aid and attacking aid convoys. It is extremely complicated and you might crack a book or two.
David Frum has always been an interesting man and his sister Barbara Frum was a high profile news person in Canada for many years and was very well loved. Very good interview.
Barbara Frum was his mother. We miss her.
Great conversation. Thank you 👏👏👏👏👏
Brilliant, once again thank you.
Excellent questions, Rory!
Frum punched down at single mothers, fought against same sex marriage, and ignores his First Nations adopted brother. Notice that he did not have 1 criticism or reservation about Israel's response to Hamas' crimes.
Has Mr frum ever met a republican politician that didn't pull the wool over his eyes and just use him because of his gullibility .
You are all ignoring JD Vance’s comments on women. He has said women should stay in violent marriages. He has said the Democratic Party is lead by unmarried women with cats and the job of post-menopausal women is to care for their grandchildren.
I would remind the commentators that we Americans didn't create the "master of the universe" mindset. We inherited it from the Brits. And we will likely face the same outcome. But not tomorrow.
An interesting interview with some good insight, although not everything is insightful and stands up to scrutiny. Sometimes being too close to influential powers isn’t helpful or insightful. That applies to all three gentlemen on this podcast
Rory, who I respect for his intelligence, knowledge and compassion, makes a great point about his recent trip to the USA and policy makers not visiting the countries they aspire to influence. I wonder how close to home he was during the general election campaign
I find it curious that people can ask, "Why?" when it comes to the Palestinian reaction to the apartheid, killing of women and children, and having their homes and belongings stolen for decades.
I see Frum, I watch.
Thank you for this excellent interview. David is brilliant at being authoritative on infinitely more than he should be. This is something he freely admits. And yet, he does nothing to temper the confidence with which he expresses his views. Shame on me for being confused by his "nuanced" opinions. When he speaks, I can't make out the forest for the trees he analyses so deftly. Love the guy but . . .
Wow. David cuts straight too it! He's so sharp and really worth following, but he does seem blind to the Israel's unwillingness to accept the peace that they were offered. The settlements were the problem that Palestinians were telling me were going to cause an infitada when I was there back in the 1990s.
I do wonder about what ideas of Henry George are the ones he is saying are "crackpot". If there's one thing I really got from reading Henry George, it's that allowing monopolisation of anything that leads to unearned incomes gives inequality of opportunity, and leads to poverty and economic and societal decline. The 2008 financial crisis would have been avoided if we had implemented a decent level of land value tax instead of taxing work, for example.
It is honestly hard to tell who JD Vance is. He is so eager to please whatever audience he is presently courting that he seems willing to say just about anything. He is so desperate to be liked that he will rent himself out to just about anybody or any idea. He is a paler version of George Santos.
Rory is right to question the ‘confidence’ more accurately arrogance of those who make decisions about the lives and futures of people of other and usually poorer peoples but why oh why don’t you just interview some of those people from such nations your selves on your excellent podcasts?
That Frum believed the lies that got us into Iraq tells us he’s not such an original thinker after all
Extremely moving , what a great guy, I used to dislike him during the Bush years . 😊 there is hope that far right doctrine will be challenged in the end from within.
This guy disgusts me...stop platforming these people! I don't know what else Israel could have done oh come on!!!
I think his reply was as a realist, "What did Hamas expect to happen?" though I would have liked Rory and Alistair to probe him on his thoughts about Netanyahu, given his Trumpian connections, because the Israeli reaction has clearly been shaped by him as PM trying to save his own skin.
@@WizardofoOZeAU I just find the idea that Israel are justified in what they are doing utterly disgusting and indefensible
Rory calls him a man of the left
@@davidevans3227 crazy...he proudly corrected him though
How about you stop being an arrogant fascist who thinks your feelings should be the determining factor of who gets a voice? I going to bet that your understanding of the Israel-Palestine wars did not hold a candle to any of the the people in this podcast, so maybe some humility and eagerness to learn should become your mantra.
"it's not whether or not trump is a conservative, he's unacceptable". It's simple, no discussion needed, the guy is UNACCEPTABLE, its as simple as that.
One of your best.
I do naturally like Frum, and agree he is a thoughtful person, but overhanging this is the knowledge that he (and Campbell) played a role in launching a criminal war of aggression which killed, at a provable minimum, 151,000 human beings, ruined the lives of many more, and devastated regional stability for the long term.
Even with personal participation in a clamor for war based on fraudulent “evidence”, Frum managed to add gas to the fire in Gaza with ill considered public pronouncements on, of all things, veracity of evidence.
Excellent
Remarkable.
A brilliant man in many respects, and yet towards the end, his explanation that it's "Israel's enemies" fault is risible. Once a neo-con, always a neo-con I suppose. :-(
AC is wearing his jim jams, talk about laid back pod...
It doesn't matter how many republican turn against Trump - even if he loses he will hang over the party like Blair & Thatcher have decades after leaving office, with a solid voting base like Boris & Obama. Any future party nominee will have to secure their support to have a real chance of winning
Enjoyed the interview until David comes out with the line when referring to Israel-Palestine “(7th Oct) I thought what the hell are they (Hamas) this war will end and must end with everyone in Gaza living in tents”. One hell of a statement, not even an ounce of sympathy for the 20,000 children killed in Gaza within the last year
David Frum needs to go to the CVS, or Shoppers Drug Mart (in Canada), and buy some razor blades and shaving cream. This look looks like Steve Bannon. Sleeping in your clothes on a red-eye ain't the best look.
Refreshing….
It’s fascinating to see how someone can feel all this grief for the lose of his daughter, can not Consider the grief of all the Palestinian mothers and fathers for their children.
This basic level of analysis on Israeli politics is tragic.
hilariously blaming Israel's opponents for lack of peace - ignoring the Oslo accords & all the hope in the 90s being destroyed by Israeli extremists assassinated their own president; whilst also ignoring decades of illegal settlement building
He said the conflict must end with everyone in Gaza living in tents, he's a warmongering pig.
Frum is a Jew.
Tell me how this Bush guy isn't a thing?
this podcast ❤s war criminals
It sure does, huh?
David, I feel you. You are politically homeless now. I'm too.
Alastair in jammies?
Who is more qualified, more expert, and has more right to an opinion, is a kind one-upmanship game academics like to play to make themselves feel superior to others.It's obnoxious. Just because someone has spent less time "on the ground" as it were, doesn't mean they're not entitled to have an opinion, or to be taken seriously. Reading widely, listening to the experience of others counts too. Rory should know better.
Rory is just saying that most of the advisors have a theoretical understanding and the power to guide huge military inventions, not necessarily knowing anything at all about the history, the people, the religious context of cultures of the people they plan to push. This was a common criticism of Afghan and Iraqi interventions. Billions were spent trying to get local people to do impossible things for impossible reasons. Rory works now in some of those targetting areas and sees the damage, money and delusion that forgeign policy golden boys wasted over so many years. It broke his heart. His point is fair enough. A board room in the US is very divorced from the reality on the ground.
I totally agree about his apparent lack of understanding of the suffering of the Palestinians since the Nakba in 1948…but what saddens me is this unquestioning belief in neo-liberal economics. His comment about why should I buy cotton locally when I can buy it cheaper overseas? with no thought at all of the implications of that on the people who grow cotton in his own backyard….if you believe in free trade, good for you, but you morally and ethically have to make sure that your own communities don’t suffer just so you can get your cotton cheaper! That concern for your fellow human beings is more important surely than just money! That’s my problem with the USA…the business of the USA is business, they say but you go look at any of their cities and the contrast between the rich and the poor is devastating and it’s even worse than that in rural America.
David is a charming, thoughtful witty guy I have no doubt but how he can ignore the wretched state of so many of his fellow Americans is just so depressing.
What really saddens you isn't this Jew's enthusiasm for his tribe's perpetration of genocide, but some garbage about economics? Priorities, son.
Off-brand Alec Baldwin
w bush should be in prison!
He advocates for democratic government at home. Very telling.
Texas humor is remarkable. My husband had the same bluntness but without being offensive to anyone. I can see why CEOs and celebrities are relocating, not just for tax benefits and deregulation. 😍🤩🤠🤓
FRUM- NEOCON...end of...
You say ahead of the facts I say wrong
Yeah you can tell he was a political speech writer.
Funny how? Funny like a dumb pre-teen?
Very odd man
Great guest, loved the poignant analysis, especially on Israel-Hamas
This must be sarcasm. He didn’t analyse anything. He gave the lousiest real-politik excuse for the mass killing of innocent civilians. Rory was right to call him out for his weird arrogance and armchair politicking when it comes to places he knows frighteningly little about. He was wrong about Iraq and he’s wrong about Palestine.
This is one of the most disingenuous humans I have ever listened to or met! He knows how to write but he crafts words to cloud the mind so it doesn’t see truth !!!!!
Really surprised at your hatred towards Jordan Peterson. He would be a great person to have on Leading but I have to say I think he would intellectually wipe the floor with you. Surely if you bad mouth someone they should have the right to reply. You can do better than this! Daniel, Leeds.
Peterson is a pseudo-scientific quack who should stick to what he’s (allegedly) good at: psychology.
This incarnation of Peterson couldn’t wipe the floor with a toddler in the minds of anyone but the most addled grifter. Back in 2015/16 perhaps, when he was still compos mentis and giving brilliant lectures, but now he would squeak vague pseudo-intellectual platitudes and dogwhistles to be lapped up by vacant reactionaries.
Genuinely interested - can you explain why JP would wipe the floor with them?
Who is he and what’s his background?
@LeadingTRIP I find these interviews very insightful. Thanks for doing them.
I would love to see you interview inequality economist @garyseconomics (Gary Stevenson). It would great great to get your take on the growing inequality in our country (and other western democracies) and his proposed solutions.