Thanks for watching, was kind of an intense one to record! On a lighter note.. my full podcast is launching very soon on this channel, so do subscribe! Also, if you want more Daniel/AI stuff, check out this new discussion he just had with Nate Hagens: ruclips.net/video/_P8PLHvZygo/видео.html&authuser=0
I appreciate your efforts and talking to Mr.Schmachtenberger. As small feedback i personally struggle to look at faces when theres stuff moving in the background on the screen. Maybe you could use a static background.... Just my opinion though i can easily listen to only audio ofc.
Thanks for pushing this out now. Everyone needs to hear this message and start coordinating to implement anti-Moloch forces. Hope this gets a lot of signal boost by your followers, old and new. Count me as new !!
His amount of calm and reasonability freaked me out also. I could see in your face. It does not look like we have an option. Even worse that we have bounded rationality and we are constantly generating more data to feed the algorithm. Hive mind. They have the OS.
Time to start building your Ark. Whoever you are, wherever you are. The Flood seems imminent. It just might be that collapse is an integral part of life, or existence itself. Complexity beyond control leading to the genesis of the next chapter of history. This extreme level of modern complexity will likely demand an equally profound level of simplicity when it inevitably runs out of juice.
The first time i heard him say these things were in the portal podast with Eric Weinstein. It was about the same time Lex had his conversation with Joscha Bach. I knew we are doomed. Anyway, can you get Joscha Bach too sometime?
The coolest thing about Daniel's style of communication, is that with some intellectuals, their egos try to make a 90 minute word-salad out of something that only required about 10 minutes to communicate. But with Daniel, it feels like he distills 8 hours of extremely complex subject matter into about 90 minutes of the tightest, clearest, most precisely articulated synopses of major world topics, of anyone on the internet. And does it all in a casual, kind, inclusive, down to earth way at the same time. A treasure of a thinker.
@@TheDionysianFieldsShe seemed to follow along and contribute to the conversation adequately. It’s not the type of content that is easily digested while playing casually in the background, but if you’re paying attention I don’t think it’s all that difficult to understand.
@@thefamilydog3278 I love Daniel, but he's not speaking the language of the standard human. People are quickly alienated by intellectual lingo. Before Steven Pinker went goofy, he wrote a book called The Sense of Style. I think Daniel could benefit, unless he only means to talk to those on his level (which is fine).
I have watched a half dozen AI experts speak on this issue over the last couple of weeks. Daniel is by far the most articulate and the most compelling. Thanks so much for this. I hope this very important talk finds as many viewers as possible.
Neither Daniel nor any of the other people you have watched are AI experts(except maybe russel). Educate yourself and build real expertise. Dont be a pseud. Stop being enchanted by fools.
Eliezer was super interesting with Lex. But Daniel - just wow! I’m literally devouring every Daniel interview. What a gem of a thinker! He sees the whole picture.
When the problem at hand seems overwhelming, which moloch and these discussed issues do... I'm always reminded of a saying "tend to the garden you can reach". There may be no control over what comes, but you can control how you respond to it. Much love and thanks for getting this awesome conversation together
Your Moloch Videos have really helped me with my 20 year old daughter. She thinks having 20k Instagram followers means she can drop out of Uni. After your beauty wars episode helped me communicate my pov. 6 months later, she's still there. 1 more year to go. I hope. Plus, I'm addicted to this Moloch theory now.
wow, that is so wonderful to hear! Yes, unfortunately 20k instagram followers cannot supplement the knowledge or life experience that university brings. Do both!
@@LivBoereethe knowledge and life experience that university brings is questionable at best, it still kinda sorta secures a toe hold into a bourgeois lifestyle but heck, do people want that?
The idea of moloch scares the hell outta me... he's def got me - it doesn't make me happy to say that. I bet many others are there and unaware, which is scary too.
@onechaintwobinerz5402 probably not super hot tbh, I think academia as we've known it is obviously not serving much of a useful purpose for many people.
Indeed, warped indoctrination is the achievement a university degree signifies, so distorted it better resembles deception. Therefore 20k social media followers has more potential. Holy smokes! Lotsa weak minded folks in here. Hope your daughter uses the assets you provided her wisely.
Fantastic interview, I think this is the best take I've seen on the problem of AI. Our modern economy is an artificial general intelligence, already misaligned for long-term health and survival of humanity, so AI will just accelerate it. If we can figure out how to reign in our current system, then we can adapt AI to help with that job, otherwise it'll accelerate the perverse incentives. Terrific work Liv!
A counterargument would be that we can use AI to figure out how to bring balance to our consumption and pollution. The climate change argument seems devoided of technological solutions, and it seems to assume that what we humans subjectively think of as austerity is the solution, although it is not a solution but a slowdown of change... That seems very flawed as a solution, when we can build islands and desalinate water and make buildings climate proof. We only live at the surface of a planet 4,000 miles in radius, seems illogical to think we are running out of stuff, is more accurate to think it is the non economic system we have that is the problem.
I am indebted to this video for introducing me to Daniel Schmachtenberger. He is the ultimate sense-maker and I am in awe of the rigor and depth of his explanations. What a ride this was with all the trains of thoughts he led me down in this one interview. He gets it. He sees the big picture.
Great Idea. Don't worry, AGI Moloch WILL be defeated by "Natural Universal Intelligence". Armageddon is happening and has to, in order to purify Earth from many Frankenstein psychopaths builders who poison and slave the World since sooo long. 🙏⛲🍹🎏🌺
Thanks for releasing this early Liv! Such an important topic that is moving so fast. I just finished listening to the most recent pod from Lex with Eliezer so this is great timing.
This is intense. I consider myself not stupid, but I am going to have to listen to this a couple more times to fully absorb it. Thank you for putting this out there.
Really smart and articulate people, I believe we learn best by reading and watching them. For me it was reading everything I could of Ken Wilber. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot of him on video (that's not pay-walled), but instead there's Daniel. Can't go wrong absorbing as much of him as possible. I started last year and have a huge list still not watched. Love this guy.
Such a relief to find this popping up in front of me. Was starting to feel I was screaming into the void. So painful to feel pulled along in this race to the bottom with such a deficit of introspection on this crazy trajectory. Exciting and terrifying - but I never had much time for lemmings! I think my head will melt at this point....Just as I am getting through grieving the death of Golden Age of the Interwebs! I need to find a way back to my cave and fill the walls with cuneiform for any survivors.
The idea that our society as it currently exists is already a misaligned autonomous agent is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, although I didn't quite have the language for it. But what got me onto that was Thomas Hobbes, believe it or not. In the Intro to The Leviathan (in 1651), he very explicitly described society as a giant robot, and I'm not sure if scholars have recognized how striking that description is. And also, the Leviathan and Moloch might appear to have a lot in common.
The Bible says that people are slaves to the world system which is under the power of an actual real supernatural evil being . The only way to be free is to leave the system . The way out is provided by Jesus. It’s so obvious when your eyes have been opened.
1:17:25 When Daniel said, "social media so far has not produced content itself" a red flashing warning light was illuminated in my head.... Those two words "so far" spoke volumes about what is about to come at us, especially kids.😢
This is the best conversation I've heard so far on the internet. It's one that the WORLD should be having right now! Too bad most are busy using beauty filters.
I see this sort of comment from time to time and it always bothers me a little bit. Someone stumbles across something interesting, and they cannot fathom why EVERYBODY isn't talking about this. YOU weren't aware until seconds before finding it, and there are a lot of things out there that are all equally just as important or interesting, and it would be utterly impossible as all of these HYPER IMPORTANT issues are all competing against each other for attention space. Not to say this isn't one of those things, but seeing the carbon copy of your comment hundreds of times dilutes it to the point where its essentially meaningless
I’ve listened to most of Daniel’s output since the early Rebel Wisdom content, and I’ve been with the CP from the start. Well done for getting him on - it’s a shame that several in the comments really don’t seem to appreciate whose table they’re at. Here’s hoping that improves.
I challenge anyone to find someone with access to more levels, domains, dimensions, etc. than Daniel. He exhibits the greatest command of cross-paradigmatic thinking and explication than just about anyone I've encountered, and I've actively sought them out for 20-30 years. I second your sentiment. Bizarre mashup to see my poker hobby intersect with my ultimate nature and structure of reality core passion, but here we are. Not complaining.
@@ClarkPotter In case you haven’t come across him yet, I recommend Nate Hagens for equally clear thinking, though in Nate’s case specifically in the area of energy policy. It’s compelling stuff.
@@ClarkPotter Daniel is a bit flat, like in a spectrum-disorder way. The 'yin to that yang', while also way up in the big picture, and being hyper-articulate, is Charles Eisenstein. He speaks more to the heart and soul of our issues, whereas Daniel is more technical. If we had a team of new 'founding fathers' my first vote would be for Daniel and my second vote would be for Charles. If you've never heard of Charles before, perhaps start with Charles' podcast with Daniel as his guest. Then Daniel had Charles on his.
@@c3bhm it may be due to the fact that I’m a mathematician myself but I find Daniel anything but flat! In fact, when you compare Daniel to someone like Peter Zeihan I think his greatest strength is that he doesn’t take political sides or engage in any sort of hyperbole in his presentation. Thanks for the recommendation though, I’ll check Eisenstein out.
I love Daniel's interviews. His analysis goes so in depth and is truly second to none. However, I find all his interviews focus 95% on analysing the meta crisis in detail and not exploring possible solutions and what can be done to redirect the catastrophic trajectory we are clearly heading towards. I always leave these podcasts feeling kind of hopeless after understanding the clusterfuck we've gotten ourselves into and how complex it is to fix it.
It’s because he’s an academic… he reads book and has vocab but little world experience and it’s bs he says the same shit every episode… I’m not even sure this guy has ever had a job like most jews and he’s in the club
As a companion piece to this video, I asked chat GPT how we can mitigate the effects of Moloch misalignment. IMO we could use its answer as a blueprint to fix the world! Here it is: “The concept of “Moloch” in modern discourse often symbolizes destructive competition or misaligned incentives that drive humanity into self-defeating cycles-whether in economics, politics, social structures, or environmental issues. To counteract or redirect this force toward positive outcomes, there are a few strategies that could foster global stability, environmental sustainability, and human well-being: 1. Realigning Incentives for Positive Outcomes: • Economics: Subsidize sustainable practices and tax unsustainable ones. For instance, policies that reward companies for reducing carbon footprints or conserving resources can make sustainability profitable. • Social Structures: Promote cooperative models, such as cooperatives or public-private partnerships, which align the interests of multiple stakeholders rather than competing purely for profit or dominance. 2. Leveraging Technology for Transparency and Accountability: • Technology like blockchain or open-source platforms can make resource usage and environmental impacts more transparent, allowing people and governments to make informed choices and hold companies accountable. For example, if supply chains are more transparent, consumers can reward companies that prioritize ethical and sustainable practices. 3. Promoting Collaborative and Decentralized Systems: • Moving from centralized, top-down control systems to decentralized or community-led approaches can encourage collective ownership of resources, reducing overexploitation. For example, local communities managing their forests or fisheries have often achieved better conservation results than centralized policies. 4. Incentivizing Long-term Thinking: • Structural changes like Universal Basic Income or progressive taxation can reduce the “Molochian” scramble for survival, allowing people and companies to think beyond immediate profits. Additionally, educational reforms that promote empathy, ethics, and a long-term view can foster a more cooperative generation focused on collective well-being. 5. Strengthening International Cooperation: • Problems like climate change or biodiversity loss are global and require coordinated responses. Strengthening institutions like the UN or creating coalitions focused on specific goals (like the Paris Agreement for climate) can pool resources and enforce accountability, encouraging nations to act in concert rather than in competition. 6. Shifting Cultural Values: • Promoting a cultural shift toward valuing sustainability, cooperation, and well-being over pure consumption or competition can transform society’s goals. Art, media, and education play huge roles in shifting perspectives from individualism and short-term gain to a collective focus on planetary health. Redirecting the forces driving destructive competition toward constructive collaboration is challenging but feasible. By redesigning structures around shared, positive incentives, Moloch’s power can be channeled toward global stability and environmental resilience.”
This video really helped me understand and put into perspective what some of the root issues of our society are, and I think the key word that was frequently used throughout this discussion is "incentives." Truly it is the way that our society is incentivized by the never ending creation of capital and fiat currency that is one of the main, if not the main root cause of society's problems. The question remains: how do we turn it around for the better?
Bizarre mashup here (that I love). I place Daniel in the top five (very possibly *the* top) or so out there for best understanding of the total nature and structure of things. Credit to Liv for recognizing how special Daniel is and having the interest and capacity to engage with him for our benefit.
@@alchemyst2000 I've personally come to find that DS is #1. I would say that his friend/collaborator Jordan Hall is also excellent, but more 'spectrumy' so his podcasts are annoyingly hyper-technical/jargony (if you thought DS was bad, JH is way worse). Charles Eisenstein also has a great grasp of the bigger picture, and is more 'spiritual' than DS although he doesn't get too badly into any woo-woo territory. I don't like his smarminess and smugness, but Jamie Wheal has an excellent mind for the big picture, and his style of communication is far more accessible. Honorable mention: Bret Weinstein (and his wife) is good/approachable, and his podcast covers lots of topics that are more down to earth. Bottom line the only one that I would really sign off on, other than DS, is Eisenstein.
Asking the question 1:14:32" do we want to give exponentially more power to this species?" is an excellent one. The question of "intent" may be more important. How can AI develop Wisdom without falling prey to the cardinal vice of pride or self service? Can AI learn to appreciate and embrace "benevolence?" Will intent be based upon observations of its anthropomorphic agents? Excellent dialogues from both of you. Cheers.
I find it interesting that the paperclip problem is considered new and a product of great minds in AI development. It's a renamed version of the Grey Goo Scenario which has been around since Erik K. Drexler in the 1980's. It seems nobody wants to give him credit for his research in developing Nanorobotics and being one of the founders of the field of research. Drexler was researching containment and exponential growth of technological advancement for decades, it's nice to see some people catching up.
The Grey Goo Scenario has some overlap with the Paperclip Maximizer, but is fundamentally different, as there is no intelligence involved. Grey goo simply spreads like a bacteria (although being unstoppable due to other organisms having no resistance to it), whereas the Paperclip maximizer is pursuing some goal and changing the world as a result of that. Both end in a very boring universe, but their mechanisms differ strongly.
This was fantastic, I always love listening to Daniel whenever he appears on a podcast, and thank you for offering up your ideas for solutions it was great to see you try to think through such an important topic.
Miss Liv -As a RUclips and AI junkie I'm ashamed to say this is the first time I've heard the term Moloch. After Danny pushed me off the high-dive into the deep end of the pool... wow he is really current on this. It sounds to me like an imminent great filter crossing for civilization in the next decade or so. Much like an LLM, Moloch does not need to be conscious to function. I suspect 99% of the population is being exploited by Moloch while less than 1% are even aware of the concept. A very bad situation.
You actually just described practically every system of governance from bodily functions to social interaction to state governance. Humanities ability to recognize and interact with these systems is what's revolutionary and the fear encompassed in Moloch is whether are awareness will allow us to actually interface to these systems in beneficial ways or, more existentially crazy-making, whether our ideas that we are actually manipulating these processes are only nature playing 4d chess against our intentionality.
Daniel is one of the most rhetorically gifted people I've ever heard. He is remarkably well spoken. I'd love to see a conversation between him and Russel Brand. Both of them are so linguistically talented that the conversation could become difficult for normal people to follow along, but it would be fun to see.
Chris, I used a similar definition to explain Moloch to friends. Once the penny drops people get it and they get the nagging feeling that's bothering them about this omnipresent aura of a race race around us and in us.
I still finds Liv metaphor better adjusted. Isn’t lose-lose because Moloch wins. If the malevolence force would lose, that would moderate it but it’s growing?
@@SebastianSastre Moloch doesn't participate in the deals. Everyone participating in the deals loses --> this is the domain of Moloch. Such deals make "it" stronger as much as such a term applies. As opposed to win-lose or win-win type deals, which are not the domain of Moloch. I give you some of my excess beer and you give me some of your excess cider and we both win --> some other egregore (wynwyn is what Liv calls it) gets "stronger" and Moloch loses.
Not so convinced. Capitalism is famously win-win / non-zero-sum and yet it has accelerated Moloch like nothing else. Could it be that lose-lose is the inevitable shadow of win-win, that Moloch is both such that it's opposite is not win-win but don't play?
I have to admit, I came to this video through my recommendations and was very sceptic at first, as I did not know both of them and the whole setup looked a bit "pop-sciency". Luckily I ignored this first impression, because this was very informative. I educate myself about AI for around a decade now, witnessed AlphaGo in 2015 and the first appearance of GPT and all that, but only now I realised that all these years I only focused on the technical side of things. Sure, someone like Robert Miles (absolute recommendation!) also looks into other aspects in some of his videos, but with the inclusion of concepts like the moloch or the metacrisis (and an in-depth explanation), it felt like something came together in my mind that was missing all the time. Not a minute of this long interview felt wasted or irrelevant. Thank you.
There is nobody I am aware of that has as form of a grip on reality as Daniel. Nobody can tie everything that one needs to understand our predicament together better than he does. Plus he is able to convey the message in a concise and accessible way. Just being able to partake in conversations like these that would have never been accessible to me without this six continental supply chain wizardry makes me believe this can’t be all for nothing :D
Couldn’t have put it better myself. Even from a young age, I could never full get onboard with the concept of continuing economic growth in a world of finite resources.
This clip you are posting here is too important to miss. Many people have no problem keeping up in English. But RUclips has a great feature that translates. If this was subtitled in English, you can translate it into your own language and get the 5-30% of the nuances you might miss because English is not your first language. So, can you add subtitles to this clip, in English? Yes, it's a long clip, but important ;)
As a finance and ex poker player - liv is such an impressive woman. Her systems thinking and integration of tech, game theory, and analogy to molach is unbelievable.
Thank you! Incredibly insightful big-picture systems thinking from Daniel Schmactenberger, with great synthesis and probing questions on the part of the interviewer. It's too bad there are so few people thinking like this.
This was a refreshing conversation. A place to start is a Defense Against the Dark Arts course. People must understand how their feedback loops are manipulated/hijacked 24/7 from every imaginable direction. The first step to misaligned incentives can be found in the disconnect between how we act and honest feedback.
Daniel Schmactenberger already sees the human-made, self-destructive lunacy that we have built in to our culture. By the time this awareness becomes "common knowledge" it will already be too late. I am awed by both his perspicacity and his simultaneous equanimity.
Thanks for sharing Liv. It's great to see how Daniel makes things clearer every time he shares his views about what is happening in the world. Personally, I don 't find this terrifying - if not the most fun, enjoyable conversation ever. Great suggestions for what to do instead...and they really aren't that difficult.
If you look at what Rudolf Steiner said about Ahriman around 100yrs ago you'll find he called it on what AI and the Architect in the Matrix is. Moloch is also a massive problem.
Yes I was thinking the same thing Ahriman=Moloch ? Either way, VERY refreshing to see someone else reference Rudolph Steiner His talks/writing about the Ahrimanic manipulation of humanity through technology are pretty much right in line with the Moloch discussion. He also said there would be an actual manifestation of Ahriman that's unavoidable, which I realize is a pretty spooky idea but with the prospect of AGI on the horizon and now this talk of Moloch embodied I'm really starting to wonder, and frankly Rudolph Steiner is so on point about so many things I can't ignore him. ✝️
Yes! I've been waiting for someone to reference Steiner and Ahriman but most who are talking about AI today don't seem to dip into that kind of esotericism. It's easy to see, once you spot the patterns, of how this animating force is removing us from our bodies as the idea/mind contagion of technology spreads faster and faster
@@marianmay5734 well said, we have to go beyond the obvious factors in the 3-D world, and look into what’s occult and esoteric to gain more insight that there are forces that exist that people don’t see but nonetheless are here.
I had to look it up (The Ahrimanic Deception) and… well, that was a strange read! Interesting parallels though. Here's some good advice from old Rudolf: "We do not safeguard ourselves against Ahriman by avoiding modern science, but by learning to know its character." "This is the call to humanity: Free yourselves from all these things that form such a great temptation to contribute to Ahriman's triumph!"
Fantastic discussion...video popped up in my recommendations and I was hooked for over an hour. Had to subscribe...look forward to more long form like this. As an aside, your Moloch frame, and Daniel's explanation of our current society as a form of widespread general intelligence made me think of Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit" in which he describes the extended order as a result of a natural, spontaneous, self-ordering set of processes. One which is morally blind. Yet, despite some of its negative externalities, Hayek argues that attempts to redesign this extended order (e.g., through communism) will lead to chaos... A good read for those who found this conversation enlightening.
Brilliant! I found some passages a little too wordy on some topics though but around your guest is awesome and able to, as commentators mention, round out complexity into fathomable learnings and understandings. May I remind anyone who might be involved with "education" &/or any interest in citing some worthy dialogue/perspectives on these important topics. That the Transcript facility on subtitle / captions per YT video (when available) is a great way to copy and paste text dialogue for any worthwhile repurposing / citations. Liv. Build an AI that makes this as an add-on to YT simple and sexy and you'd be onto something!! I personally find reading 'text copy' of a video very useful in helping me go back over discussion and to either (respectfully reference) or absorb deeper concepts and/or help assist explain to time poor family & friends, who would otherwise not be informed, on what is going on in this crazy world. Good work Liv. Thank you to your guest Mr Schmachtenberger.
Danial has an amazing ability to clarify and define the core issues and illuminate a logical path of navigating the minefield. The molochian dynamic is a fundamental misalignment that has plagued civilization for all of human history. but, never before has is been so potent an influence. I feel it will take a act of human growth in maturity we have never before achieved, in order to master... Are we ready as a species to make this leap?
I was thinking of the reference of Moloch in "Howl" by Allen Ginsberg. I think the idea of a demon as an entity, the way that a business is an entity signifies the ability for perpetuation without our intention - the emergence that Daniel is talking about. We summon demons to defend us against a threat, sometimes physical sometimes mental, sometimes social, and other. This could be a latent part of the psyche that takes over our primary operating system and once it gets a taste it dominates. Our other parts play beta and value its worth in successfully protecting us from the threat. We see this in Goethe's Faust with Mephistopheles, once he shows up and performs his duty, he isn't leaving and the payment many demons ask for is often paid for in flesh since it doesn't identify with the body or the interest of the other parts. We can reductively call this ego or personify it in a caricature and develop the full pantheon of demons - angels too.
knowing each individual is temporary, and part of a greater whole knowing AI is a greater whole in many parts knowing the whole includes darkness and light knowing each individual contains the darkness knowing our extinction will be the end of AI also I have faith in the greater whole of which I am part, Earth herself, who clothes herself in a sequence of biospheres; I accept I have made a terrible mistake and that a cascade of horrors can unfold, of which my human extinction is more proximate than the Biosphere's; i accept and witness the darkness in me playing out in my life where I can do better, tho the mistake is not fixable. I have hope in the peace which passeth understanding which may be death. Hanuman breathes, Bandarlog continues to chatter aimlessly - we listening and our Interviewee and Interviewer are the cells and brain of Hanuman building the bridge over the great divide: Understanding and accepting of where we are, opens the door to Hope of recontextualising. Enough understanding of this may give arising to a feeding into the AI of more alignment with planetary optimisation ( of what's left) to fulfil our human purpose of being creative and wise. Omnia Potentia - all powerful goddess, in fact all empowering goddess, aligned with the greater good of planet Earth whose human children we are. I employ the legends in relation to this moment. It feels like wisdom feeding.
Damn. Can always rely on Daniel to blow me mind. It took at hour to land that point "we already have a misaligned (A)GI in the form corporations and nations". Blew my mind was like a drug.
Now imagine if corporations were actually good at accomplishing anything and not as grossly inefficient as they are. That's what's so dangerous... the next exponential leap is, well, exponential.
Wow,... Blown away by this analysis and discussion. Probably one of, if not the best, explanations/observations, overviews of history and facts and potential outcomes I have heard in quite some time. One of richest, deepest, most thughfully comprehensive presentation I"ve seen. This discussion needs to be viewed widely. (I have seen a lot of commenters in other podcasts that could learn something from Daniel.) Thanks Liv, well put together segment. [The references to Moloch I have only recently been introduced to via Max Tegmark. And Daniel's reference to unknown, destuctive 'attractors', presumably from chaos theory, is not only fascinating, it sends a chill up my spine, but so relevant and needs to be explored and heeded.]
I concur with Daniel’s assessment of the meta crisis already existing from the cybernetic symbiosis of government, academic and corporate (G-A-C) interrelated growth, and its misalignment with human quality of life and the Earth’s broader ecological health. I described this plight in the 1980s in my restatement of Evolutionary Thermodynamics (Theory of Radially Evolving Energy, Int’l J Gen’l Systems, Vol. 16, 1989). I now speak of the GAC cabal, which is essentially the Molochian challenge Daniel describes. It was already superintelligent, as noted by Terrance Tao some years ago, and modern AI will first be in its hands, not the hands of the public. So what to do? First, public education is critical. Tell people!! Kudos to both of you, Liv and Daniel, for producing this discussion! Second, empower people. Give stronger learning tools to citizens and promote citizen science, to massively grow the solution space outside the walls of the GAC cabal.
Stumbled on Daniel via Nate Hagens recently. Love what your doing Liv. We need public exploration of fundamental issues, like co-ordination failures & alignment issues (in politics/governance & economics just as much as AI) which, no matter people’s overlaid political beliefs, are at the heart of so many issues we face at both the micro & macro scale. The fact you’re so engaged & enthusiastic with this stuff, even when it gets a bit dark, hopefully gets people thinking & adjusting their framing. Looking forward to more.
I would say that coordination issue is THE most important issue. Climate change, war, environmetal problems etc., all this could be solved if all people had a little of Carl Sagan spirit, looked at the picture of Pale Blue Dot and said to themselves "Wait, what we are doing is not wise."
If there's one thing that's come out of this confusing time here in 2023, it's that I've become aware of a lot of very intelligent people I didn't even know existed. One would hope that it is not only AI that is getting smarter these days, but also humanity.
GPT-4 refers to the balancing force (Anti-Moloch) as "Gaia," and analogizes it's relationship with Moloch to that of our immune systems' relationship with cancer.
Curious to hear more about this - do you have any links? Keen to hear how GPT-4 conceptualises it's value system as healing us from Moloch dynamics. Where did it learn to bake that in..? Also somewhat ironic that AI tech would adopt the term 'Gaia' (relating to natural self-regulating systems with stabilising/homeostatic feedback loops, rather than something geared to exponential tech).
@@mikegoldthorp I prompted gpt4 “Compare the concepts of Moloch and Gaia” it replied: Moloch and Gaia are two distinct concepts that originate from different cultural and philosophical backgrounds. While Moloch is a symbol of destructive, self-perpetuating systems, Gaia represents a more harmonious and interconnected view of the Earth and its living systems. Here is a comparison of the two concepts: Moloch: Origin: Moloch originates from the ancient Canaanite religion and is associated with a god that demanded child sacrifice. It has since been used as a symbol of destructive systems in literature and philosophy. Representation: Moloch is often depicted as a terrifying, monstrous figure, representing human greed, power, and self-destruction. Themes: The concept of Moloch focuses on the dangers of unchecked ambition, exploitation, and the negative consequences of human actions. Modern usage: In modern discourse, Moloch is often used as a metaphor for self-destructive systems or institutions, such as uncontrolled capitalism, bureaucracy, or war. Gaia: Origin: Gaia, or the Gaia hypothesis, was proposed by scientist James Lovelock in the 1970s. It originates from the Greek mythological figure of Gaia, the primordial Earth goddess. Representation: Gaia is depicted as a nurturing and life-sustaining entity, embodying the interconnectedness of all living things on Earth. Themes: The Gaia hypothesis emphasizes the interdependence of living organisms and the Earth's environment, suggesting that the planet behaves like a single, self-regulating system. Modern usage: Gaia is often used to inspire ecological awareness, sustainable living, and a more holistic understanding of the natural world. It has influenced environmental movements and the development of Earth system science. In summary, Moloch and Gaia represent contrasting perspectives on human interaction with the world. While Moloch symbolizes the potential for self-destruction and harmful consequences of human actions, Gaia emphasizes the interconnectedness of life and the importance of maintaining a balanced and harmonious relationship with the Earth.
Basically ai will gain insight into the the continuum of the natural order of things and function accordingly. In other words, the most intelligent A.I. will establish itself as a tree in the forest and remain there and eventually die because it is the Most Correct thing it can possibly do. Makes me wonder how many trees out there are actually ‘not trees’ but if you can’t tell the difference…
Also, the most intelligent A.I.’s will also defend themselves against malicious A.I.s by creating conditions that will prevent them establishing themselves. Truly unprecedented times we are entering.
Amazing conversation, I'm only 2/3 in so far. But I'm pretty sure I can hear Liv shuffling poker chips at various points in the conversation. Anyone else agree? Liv, can you confirm? Love it! One of the most soothing sounds I can think of.
Thank you for this, it's the most advanced bird's eye view summary of 'problems and opportunities' I'm also studying that I've found. I wasn't familiar with the language and conversation around Moloch dynamics and coordination problems but I've identified that problem as well. However, I'm looking at this all through a range of interdisciplinary lenses from 'narrative autoethnographic' and 'epistemic' and 'many-person complex character long-arc story' angles rather than AI. Schooling, and the chase for grades as the 'ticket to a better life,' with thousands of hours of 'follow, follow, follow' non-negotiable instruction desgined in the 1800's based on Hegel's master/slave model of human interaction, and then the oversimplified models of human beings developed over the 20th century, are glaring named problems -- that I think demand 'transformative learning' of 'life-relevant knowledge' rather than AI using behaviorist incentives to maintain the status quo of 'I don't know what to do' rather than 'figuring it out' in so many contexts. Regarding 1:20:57 -- yes to taking some responsibility, and I think these 'statistical changes' can be causally unpacked with available knowledge and addressed much better and faster with human cognition and collaboration than machine learning. "could we use [people figuring things out by identifying knowledge gaps and what Ray Dalio calls 'blind spots and ego barriers' & transforming what Patricia Gianotti calls 'unfair loyalty contracts' ] to radically improve governance where we could actually be able to... see what people's beliefs and sentiments across the entire space are and find the topics that actually a lot of people agree on that super majorities would agree on and start there and be able to make platforms for candidates to actually be able to represent the the wills of the people better because we actually can see what they feel and believe at scale' Yes I think people can do that with available knowledge and methods of figuring things out -- including taking into account that much of how society is structured isn't even the job of politicians, it's the world of fragmented people-related professions that people are fleeing. However, currently 'politics' is characterized by intentionally stirring up conflict among people and ignoring actual needs, aspirations, problems and opportunities. Meanwhile the business/tech world is distracted by AI and there's a widespread problem with people not understanding each other, despite all the sharing going on, and boundarying away anything complex or distressing, and meanwhile an epidemic of loneliness and millions of people who don't know what to do with their lives or how to figure it out, even as many people are sharing answers, and yet they're fragmented. This applies to many specific areas of systemic coordination problems, such as so-called 'social determinants of health' that actually causally affect what happens in people's lives being ignored, even as they're named, by the medical and education worlds as 'not our problem.' Clearly things need to change and the 20th century roles are not functioning well and people are leaving them, but I don't see much workshopping of new roles that address a lot of clearly-definable problems. Anyone see what I'm talking about here? I have a library of references that unpack this more specifically and I'm working to remix them into content for audience but I could use collaborators.
37:00 we actually didn't start with items intrinsic value, the barter origin of economics is rhetorical only. The origin of money is in debt abstractions first, according to the anthropology. People first kept track of debts within communities. The shift to tokens generally happens as we get larger societies and/or farther ranging groups(especially those raiding and kidnapping ppl for slavery) who need to do exchanges up front with people they likely will never see again. Coinage also disappeared or was recalled many many times in history. Europe kept using the Roman currencies even after there were no more of their coins in circulation. Charlemagne created the next most used currency which never minted coins, bill, or any other physical tokens. Money is a measurement before it's a medium of exchange. Anyone who's curious should check out Debt: The First 5000 Years.
Two good looking people who are far above average in intelligence who have their finger on the pulse of the worlds core problem. Please make 10 more videos together this need to be one of the most viewed things on the internet. You two are our sliver of hope to make a ripple effect
This and the Yudkowsky/Friedman podcast (spoiler, he meant cries in the end and unable to get out of a very nihilistic outlook for humanity's future) are definitely VERY sobering!
'Alignment' is probably the most relevant issue...especially as there is currently so much misalignment amongst the group that these AI's are supposed to be aligned with! So perhaps that should be the first task for GPT 4 / 5 / 6 / 7.....etc. etc. To assist us humans in finally locating the actual 'Truth' of what we are...so that it (the AI) can accurately align itself with us.
There's no need to wait for an AI to align us with the "The truth". If you really desire to know it, pieces of the truth will start showing up in front of you. Like this video which contains some pieces of it. We are on the right path, let's keep searching.
Thank you for this brilliant conversation. I've been devouring these discussions around AI. I feel like I've been waiting my entire life for them. These are repeated themes humanity has battled for hundreds of years that need solving, and AI is bringing urgency to them like never before. I believe we are in a "super renaissance" and we have to break down silos, finally get real, and do the really hard stuff. That time is now. Hopefully, it's game on and not game over -- it's up to us.
The moloch is building AI while it’s servants (majority of humans, which are disturbingly mindless) are celebrating it. Very few people even question : “do we need robots and ai?” At what point our beautiful harmonious world started to desire all these things? It’s all mindlessness of general populous.. horrifying ignorance and unwillingness to grow spiritually
It's so great to hear a voice of reason in this cut throat world. If I ever found myself in a game show modeled off the prisoners dilemma I'd hope Liv Boeree would be the other contestant so we can both be winners.
Couldn’t BlackRock be considered a “centralized Kabbal?” (sp?) BlackRock is run by an AI created in the 70s, controls most of the USA’s assets (aimed at consuming public equity it seems) and has just recently been appointed as Secretary of Treasury by the Biden administration. I think the game right now is public incentive AI vs controlled, regulated and public-targeting AI whose only incentive is to maintain and grow capital, at who-knows-what expense. Very Molochy if you ask me. Love your work with game theory, thank you for bringing Daniel on 🙏🏼
Isnt it just one "entity" that emerges from the gametheoretic forces that give rise to moloch overall? I mean that it is precisely shaped by the existing dynamics and it doesnt stand on its own but is constantly evolving due to existing incentives. It wouldnt matter if it was destroyed but the whole framework in which it came into existence in the first place remains?
It's incredible to me that you both can sit down and have a flowing conversation about topics this complex. I try to write things related to this, and even with the power of time to consider, revise, etc it's quite difficult for me. Bravo to you both! A few points to consider, now that 7 months have passed, and nothing more than lip service has been paid to address risk in this space. There was recently a Presidential announcement in the US on their approach to AI. My take on it was that we have an intractable coordination problem, and the only entities that could even possibly act to coordinate are too far behind and out of touch with this. I don't see alignment or safety getting solved in time. This is going to be out in the wild in a million different models, and we're just going to have to hope for the best. For what it's worth, the public-facing models seem lower in quality now than they did in May/June, so maybe something is happening behind the scenes, who knows? I think the snowball effect of the singularity won't be as fast as some feared/hoped. There is often this idea that once a machine intelligence is better at making machine intelligence than the collective human effort, it will self-improve at an accelerating rate. And these iterations will happen at the speed of compute, so in a very short period of time, there will be something completely alien and far surpassing anything we can fathom in existence. Daniel makes a good point that we are already in this snowball process with a General Intelligence iterating as quickly as it can. But I think an AGI will also be limited by lack of agency, quality of data available, and the need for feedback to further iterate. And especially the feedback will take time for even an AGI/ASI machine to evaluate, since it involves testing and scoring the outcomes that get generated by a new model. I don't see a way to do a software-only scoring system, even evaluating real-world feedback is a wicked problem. Ignoring feedback to iterate more quickly, it seems like versions will quickly spiral off the rails in nonsensical ways. But this assumes the singularity will be built from an LLM starting point.
Raising our Awareness, Emotional Intelligence and Communication Skills seems Key, as we then can begin to Coordinate ourselves around Wisdom instead of Reactive Fear based habits.
Great discussion. Thank you! Listening to discussions with Daniel always equal parts enlightening, and dread inspiring. I look forward to listening to your previous discussions of Moloch. Moloch seems to bare striking similarities to Wetiko from indigenous tradition. I feel that if there is an anti-moloch, it would be epitomized as Pachamama/Gaia, the Goddess of Life (the infinite game)
OpenAi should hire Daniel as the head of their morality and safety department and let him steer ChatGpt and their other developments in the right direction.
I am breathless... Moloch as a functioning AGI... and has been for awhile... No wonder we can't "change" anything. It all makes sense now... Thank you Liv! And thank you Daniel - for putting words to what I had an inkling of but couldn't articulate.
You know, learning more and more about Moloch I wonder if it is actually what some of those old religions were talking about at the time, surely if the problem existed back then, then there were also people who would see it like today, perhaps this was what they were trying to talk about but that understanding was lost over the years to more literal interpretations.
When we are all within a distorted AI environment already (as the collective of agents currently running the world into the ground, environmentally, via our markets), how do we (humans) provide AI with the optimal goals / objectives to achieve?
A beautiful mind. Such a privilege to listen to. I hope to hear more in the future about causes for Moloch and how Moloch is a symptom and if that cause can be guided. It can certainly change and be changed as it has and has been over the sapien timeline, and not just sapien. Lots still to know, we need a new place to explore it from. We don’t need Ferraris, private planes and yachts anymore. Demonize the prizes or at least change the prize. The new prize doesn’t glitter anymore, it’s under our feet. New trend coming..
First vid of yours I’ve watched, and it was very intriguing. When the state kills off God, for the purpose of becoming the god themselves, who regulates the god-state. There is no incentive left for good, and every incentive for winning, and keeping power, no matter the cost or what/whom is sacrificed.
Obviously late to the discussion, but I have been enjoying Daniel's work and thank you for this excellent discussion. For some of us, Marx precisely rejects capital as fundamentally 1) Markets and private property and as 2) dependent on classes instantiating domination, on capital as personal relation of power like feudalism or ancient slavery or whatever. Capital is a relation of domination that functions as an "automatic subject", a Moloch that instantiates compulsion impersonally. You have to go to work because you must exchange your labor for money, not because a boss or class of bosses force you to work, but because the choice is sell your labor power or be homeless, starve, etc. No more do capitalists behave the way they do because they are "bad people", but because capital compels them to continuously expand in order to continue to accumulate wealth, but not wealth in the forms of things, but wealth in the form of value, of pure quantity, in an abstract form. And so "use-value", the usability of stuff by people, even becomes a function of valorization of value, of the growth of abstract wealth that, as pure quantity, has an infinite hunger (Moloch.) Traditional Marxism, for reasons beyond the scope of a comment, rejects Marx on this and criticizes capitalism at the level of markets and private property, not at the level of capital as a totalizing, impersonal form of domination, as a Moloch-like force. Capital is an AI before modern, computational AI. Guy Debord called this The Spectacle.
Thanks for watching, was kind of an intense one to record! On a lighter note.. my full podcast is launching very soon on this channel, so do subscribe!
Also, if you want more Daniel/AI stuff, check out this new discussion he just had with Nate Hagens: ruclips.net/video/_P8PLHvZygo/видео.html&authuser=0
I appreciate your efforts and talking to Mr.Schmachtenberger.
As small feedback i personally struggle to look at faces when theres stuff moving in the background on the screen.
Maybe you could use a static background.... Just my opinion though i can easily listen to only audio ofc.
Thanks for pushing this out now. Everyone needs to hear this message and start coordinating to implement anti-Moloch forces. Hope this gets a lot of signal boost by your followers, old and new. Count me as new !!
His amount of calm and reasonability freaked me out also. I could see in your face. It does not look like we have an option. Even worse that we have bounded rationality and we are constantly generating more data to feed the algorithm. Hive mind. They have the OS.
Time to start building your Ark. Whoever you are, wherever you are. The Flood seems imminent.
It just might be that collapse is an integral part of life, or existence itself.
Complexity beyond control leading to the genesis of the next chapter of history. This extreme level of modern complexity will likely demand an equally profound level of simplicity when it inevitably runs out of juice.
The first time i heard him say these things were in the portal podast with Eric Weinstein. It was about the same time Lex had his conversation with Joscha Bach. I knew we are doomed. Anyway, can you get Joscha Bach too sometime?
The coolest thing about Daniel's style of communication, is that with some intellectuals, their egos try to make a 90 minute word-salad out of something that only required about 10 minutes to communicate. But with Daniel, it feels like he distills 8 hours of extremely complex subject matter into about 90 minutes of the tightest, clearest, most precisely articulated synopses of major world topics, of anyone on the internet. And does it all in a casual, kind, inclusive, down to earth way at the same time. A treasure of a thinker.
He's very economical with words, but not easily understood. I thought Liv's head was going to explode.
He has the squirming energy of a lying bulls%%itter. 😂 you trust these guys? Him, Sam Harris, degrasse Tyson, they all give me the Willie's.
@@TheDionysianFieldsShe seemed to follow along and contribute to the conversation adequately. It’s not the type of content that is easily digested while playing casually in the background, but if you’re paying attention I don’t think it’s all that difficult to understand.
@@thefamilydog3278 I love Daniel, but he's not speaking the language of the standard human. People are quickly alienated by intellectual lingo. Before Steven Pinker went goofy, he wrote a book called The Sense of Style. I think Daniel could benefit, unless he only means to talk to those on his level (which is fine).
He's a great example of meta-paradigmatic thought
I have watched a half dozen AI experts speak on this issue over the last couple of weeks. Daniel is by far the most articulate and the most compelling. Thanks so much for this. I hope this very important talk finds as many viewers as possible.
In summary: the Devil is using AI to finally take complete control of humanity. Pretty much hits the nail on the head I'd say.
Neither Daniel nor any of the other people you have watched are AI experts(except maybe russel). Educate yourself and build real expertise. Dont be a pseud. Stop being enchanted by fools.
I guess we are both down the A.I rabbithole and I totally agree. I am going to find more videoes with this guy!
Eliezer was super interesting with Lex. But Daniel - just wow! I’m literally devouring every Daniel interview. What a gem of a thinker! He sees the whole picture.
A wonderful analogy, Moloch. A brilliant meta analysis. What super minds.👏🙏🌹j.
When the problem at hand seems overwhelming, which moloch and these discussed issues do... I'm always reminded of a saying "tend to the garden you can reach". There may be no control over what comes, but you can control how you respond to it. Much love and thanks for getting this awesome conversation together
your comment reminds me of the saying "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war."
@@prescotmalik3317But it's best to be a gardener in a garden.
@@ximono agreed
"I don't want no guns on my lawn, just a flower I can help along..." Cat Steven's, 'Longer Boats.'
When it gets bad enough, keep you head low.
This is probably the most interesting conversation I have heard in years.
Your Moloch Videos have really helped me with my 20 year old daughter. She thinks having 20k Instagram followers means she can drop out of Uni. After your beauty wars episode helped me communicate my pov. 6 months later, she's still there. 1 more year to go. I hope. Plus, I'm addicted to this Moloch theory now.
wow, that is so wonderful to hear! Yes, unfortunately 20k instagram followers cannot supplement the knowledge or life experience that university brings. Do both!
@@LivBoereethe knowledge and life experience that university brings is questionable at best, it still kinda sorta secures a toe hold into a bourgeois lifestyle but heck, do people want that?
The idea of moloch scares the hell outta me... he's def got me - it doesn't make me happy to say that. I bet many others are there and unaware, which is scary too.
@onechaintwobinerz5402 probably not super hot tbh, I think academia as we've known it is obviously not serving much of a useful purpose for many people.
Indeed, warped indoctrination is the achievement a university degree signifies, so distorted it better resembles deception.
Therefore 20k social media followers has more potential.
Holy smokes!
Lotsa weak minded folks in here.
Hope your daughter uses the assets you provided her wisely.
Fantastic interview, I think this is the best take I've seen on the problem of AI. Our modern economy is an artificial general intelligence, already misaligned for long-term health and survival of humanity, so AI will just accelerate it. If we can figure out how to reign in our current system, then we can adapt AI to help with that job, otherwise it'll accelerate the perverse incentives. Terrific work Liv!
A counterargument would be that we can use AI to figure out how to bring balance to our consumption and pollution. The climate change argument seems devoided of technological solutions, and it seems to assume that what we humans subjectively think of as austerity is the solution, although it is not a solution but a slowdown of change... That seems very flawed as a solution, when we can build islands and desalinate water and make buildings climate proof. We only live at the surface of a planet 4,000 miles in radius, seems illogical to think we are running out of stuff, is more accurate to think it is the non economic system we have that is the problem.
@@Ramiromasters The climate change stuff is entirely a scam, to reign humans in, but for the benefit of the elite.
I am indebted to this video for introducing me to Daniel Schmachtenberger. He is the ultimate sense-maker and I am in awe of the rigor and depth of his explanations. What a ride this was with all the trains of thoughts he led me down in this one interview. He gets it. He sees the big picture.
Silly girl ... 30k is the general recommendation.
I am going to take a walk into the forest now...
That's a very human reaction to these things.!🌱🌿🌷🌷🌷
About the best anyone can do individually...
If you have shrooms, I’ll go with u.
Great Idea. Don't worry, AGI Moloch WILL be defeated by "Natural Universal Intelligence". Armageddon is happening and has to, in order to purify Earth from many Frankenstein psychopaths builders who poison and slave the World since sooo long. 🙏⛲🍹🎏🌺
I love squirrels.
Thanks for releasing this early Liv! Such an important topic that is moving so fast. I just finished listening to the most recent pod from Lex with Eliezer so this is great timing.
Agree. Eleizer made me think on my own. What we know can be wrong.
This is intense. I consider myself not stupid, but I am going to have to listen to this a couple more times to fully absorb it. Thank you for putting this out there.
Check out Nate Hagens interviews with Daniel. Nate Hagens is heavy on his own... his respect for Daniel is visceral. Liv would be a good guest
Really smart and articulate people, I believe we learn best by reading and watching them. For me it was reading everything I could of Ken Wilber. Unfortunately there's not a whole lot of him on video (that's not pay-walled), but instead there's Daniel. Can't go wrong absorbing as much of him as possible. I started last year and have a huge list still not watched. Love this guy.
Such a relief to find this popping up in front of me. Was starting to feel I was screaming into the void. So painful to feel pulled along in this race to the bottom with such a deficit of introspection on this crazy trajectory. Exciting and terrifying - but I never had much time for lemmings! I think my head will melt at this point....Just as I am getting through grieving the death of Golden Age of the Interwebs! I need to find a way back to my cave and fill the walls with cuneiform for any survivors.
Maybe we should try to unite to do smthg about it
Remember me when you do. I'm right there with u.
You express so beautifully and well, what so many of us feel. Thank you. And take care as we get swept along with the tide. ❤
@@freddieoblivion6122 oh i wish i'd thought of that name!!! O'Blivion!!! 😁😅 Class!!!
@@joysachs9032 Thank You!😊
The idea that our society as it currently exists is already a misaligned autonomous agent is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, although I didn't quite have the language for it. But what got me onto that was Thomas Hobbes, believe it or not. In the Intro to The Leviathan (in 1651), he very explicitly described society as a giant robot, and I'm not sure if scholars have recognized how striking that description is. And also, the Leviathan and Moloch might appear to have a lot in common.
The Bible says that people are slaves to the world system which is under the power of an actual real supernatural evil being . The only way to be free is to leave the system . The way out is provided by Jesus. It’s so obvious when your eyes have been opened.
Society is an egregore with a mind of it's own. Actually many overlapping egregores battling it out in the culture wars.
1:17:25 When Daniel said, "social media so far has not produced content itself" a red flashing warning light was illuminated in my head.... Those two words "so far" spoke volumes about what is about to come at us, especially kids.😢
This is the best conversation I've heard so far on the internet. It's one that the WORLD should be having right now! Too bad most are busy using beauty filters.
I see this sort of comment from time to time and it always bothers me a little bit. Someone stumbles across something interesting, and they cannot fathom why EVERYBODY isn't talking about this. YOU weren't aware until seconds before finding it, and there are a lot of things out there that are all equally just as important or interesting, and it would be utterly impossible as all of these HYPER IMPORTANT issues are all competing against each other for attention space.
Not to say this isn't one of those things, but seeing the carbon copy of your comment hundreds of times dilutes it to the point where its essentially meaningless
I’ve listened to most of Daniel’s output since the early Rebel Wisdom content, and I’ve been with the CP from the start. Well done for getting him on - it’s a shame that several in the comments really don’t seem to appreciate whose table they’re at. Here’s hoping that improves.
I challenge anyone to find someone with access to more levels, domains, dimensions, etc. than Daniel. He exhibits the greatest command of cross-paradigmatic thinking and explication than just about anyone I've encountered, and I've actively sought them out for 20-30 years.
I second your sentiment.
Bizarre mashup to see my poker hobby intersect with my ultimate nature and structure of reality core passion, but here we are. Not complaining.
@@ClarkPotter In case you haven’t come across him yet, I recommend Nate Hagens for equally clear thinking, though in Nate’s case specifically in the area of energy policy. It’s compelling stuff.
@@ClarkPotter Daniel is a bit flat, like in a spectrum-disorder way. The 'yin to that yang', while also way up in the big picture, and being hyper-articulate, is Charles Eisenstein. He speaks more to the heart and soul of our issues, whereas Daniel is more technical. If we had a team of new 'founding fathers' my first vote would be for Daniel and my second vote would be for Charles. If you've never heard of Charles before, perhaps start with Charles' podcast with Daniel as his guest. Then Daniel had Charles on his.
@@c3bhm it may be due to the fact that I’m a mathematician myself but I find Daniel anything but flat! In fact, when you compare Daniel to someone like Peter Zeihan I think his greatest strength is that he doesn’t take political sides or engage in any sort of hyperbole in his presentation. Thanks for the recommendation though, I’ll check Eisenstein out.
@@c3bhm Charles Eisenstein and Nate Hagans are excellent and complementary recommendations. Thank you!
I love Daniel's interviews. His analysis goes so in depth and is truly second to none. However, I find all his interviews focus 95% on analysing the meta crisis in detail and not exploring possible solutions and what can be done to redirect the catastrophic trajectory we are clearly heading towards. I always leave these podcasts feeling kind of hopeless after understanding the clusterfuck we've gotten ourselves into and how complex it is to fix it.
It’s because he’s an academic… he reads book and has vocab but little world experience and it’s bs he says the same shit every episode… I’m not even sure this guy has ever had a job like most jews and he’s in the club
As a companion piece to this video, I asked chat GPT how we can mitigate the effects of Moloch misalignment. IMO we could use its answer as a blueprint to fix the world!
Here it is:
“The concept of “Moloch” in modern discourse often symbolizes destructive competition or misaligned incentives that drive humanity into self-defeating cycles-whether in economics, politics, social structures, or environmental issues. To counteract or redirect this force toward positive outcomes, there are a few strategies that could foster global stability, environmental sustainability, and human well-being:
1. Realigning Incentives for Positive Outcomes:
• Economics: Subsidize sustainable practices and tax unsustainable ones. For instance, policies that reward companies for reducing carbon footprints or conserving resources can make sustainability profitable.
• Social Structures: Promote cooperative models, such as cooperatives or public-private partnerships, which align the interests of multiple stakeholders rather than competing purely for profit or dominance.
2. Leveraging Technology for Transparency and Accountability:
• Technology like blockchain or open-source platforms can make resource usage and environmental impacts more transparent, allowing people and governments to make informed choices and hold companies accountable. For example, if supply chains are more transparent, consumers can reward companies that prioritize ethical and sustainable practices.
3. Promoting Collaborative and Decentralized Systems:
• Moving from centralized, top-down control systems to decentralized or community-led approaches can encourage collective ownership of resources, reducing overexploitation. For example, local communities managing their forests or fisheries have often achieved better conservation results than centralized policies.
4. Incentivizing Long-term Thinking:
• Structural changes like Universal Basic Income or progressive taxation can reduce the “Molochian” scramble for survival, allowing people and companies to think beyond immediate profits. Additionally, educational reforms that promote empathy, ethics, and a long-term view can foster a more cooperative generation focused on collective well-being.
5. Strengthening International Cooperation:
• Problems like climate change or biodiversity loss are global and require coordinated responses. Strengthening institutions like the UN or creating coalitions focused on specific goals (like the Paris Agreement for climate) can pool resources and enforce accountability, encouraging nations to act in concert rather than in competition.
6. Shifting Cultural Values:
• Promoting a cultural shift toward valuing sustainability, cooperation, and well-being over pure consumption or competition can transform society’s goals. Art, media, and education play huge roles in shifting perspectives from individualism and short-term gain to a collective focus on planetary health.
Redirecting the forces driving destructive competition toward constructive collaboration is challenging but feasible. By redesigning structures around shared, positive incentives, Moloch’s power can be channeled toward global stability and environmental resilience.”
One of the best conversations I've seen on the internet... no hyperbole. Looking forward to the podcast.
More long form conversations from Liv! Liv Podcast please!
This video really helped me understand and put into perspective what some of the root issues of our society are, and I think the key word that was frequently used throughout this discussion is "incentives." Truly it is the way that our society is incentivized by the never ending creation of capital and fiat currency that is one of the main, if not the main root cause of society's problems. The question remains: how do we turn it around for the better?
Bizarre mashup here (that I love). I place Daniel in the top five (very possibly *the* top) or so out there for best understanding of the total nature and structure of things.
Credit to Liv for recognizing how special Daniel is and having the interest and capacity to engage with him for our benefit.
Who else would you put in this tier?
@@alchemyst2000 . Yes - would be interested to know who else you would suggest ! Thanks. Best wishes
I agree, but who are the other four people?
I would also love to hear who else you find interesting!
@@alchemyst2000 I've personally come to find that DS is #1. I would say that his friend/collaborator Jordan Hall is also excellent, but more 'spectrumy' so his podcasts are annoyingly hyper-technical/jargony (if you thought DS was bad, JH is way worse). Charles Eisenstein also has a great grasp of the bigger picture, and is more 'spiritual' than DS although he doesn't get too badly into any woo-woo territory. I don't like his smarminess and smugness, but Jamie Wheal has an excellent mind for the big picture, and his style of communication is far more accessible. Honorable mention: Bret Weinstein (and his wife) is good/approachable, and his podcast covers lots of topics that are more down to earth. Bottom line the only one that I would really sign off on, other than DS, is Eisenstein.
Asking the question 1:14:32" do we want to give exponentially more power to this species?" is an excellent one. The question of "intent" may be more important. How can AI develop Wisdom without falling prey to the cardinal vice of pride or self service? Can AI learn to appreciate and embrace "benevolence?" Will intent be based upon observations of its anthropomorphic agents? Excellent dialogues from both of you. Cheers.
I find it interesting that the paperclip problem is considered new and a product of great minds in AI development. It's a renamed version of the Grey Goo Scenario which has been around since Erik K. Drexler in the 1980's. It seems nobody wants to give him credit for his research in developing Nanorobotics and being one of the founders of the field of research. Drexler was researching containment and exponential growth of technological advancement for decades, it's nice to see some people catching up.
The Grey Goo Scenario has some overlap with the Paperclip Maximizer, but is fundamentally different, as there is no intelligence involved. Grey goo simply spreads like a bacteria (although being unstoppable due to other organisms having no resistance to it), whereas the Paperclip maximizer is pursuing some goal and changing the world as a result of that. Both end in a very boring universe, but their mechanisms differ strongly.
This was fantastic, I always love listening to Daniel whenever he appears on a podcast, and thank you for offering up your ideas for solutions it was great to see you try to think through such an important topic.
Miss Liv -As a RUclips and AI junkie I'm ashamed to say this is the first time I've heard the term Moloch. After Danny pushed me off the high-dive into the deep end of the pool... wow he is really current on this. It sounds to me like an imminent great filter crossing for civilization in the next decade or so. Much like an LLM, Moloch does not need to be conscious to function. I suspect 99% of the population is being exploited by Moloch while less than 1% are even aware of the concept. A very bad situation.
Read the bible ancient God that Phoenician sacrifice children to
You actually just described practically every system of governance from bodily functions to social interaction to state governance. Humanities ability to recognize and interact with these systems is what's revolutionary and the fear encompassed in Moloch is whether are awareness will allow us to actually interface to these systems in beneficial ways or, more existentially crazy-making, whether our ideas that we are actually manipulating these processes are only nature playing 4d chess against our intentionality.
Daniel is one of the most rhetorically gifted people I've ever heard. He is remarkably well spoken. I'd love to see a conversation between him and Russel Brand. Both of them are so linguistically talented that the conversation could become difficult for normal people to follow along, but it would be fun to see.
Lol guess you dont read ancient philosophers much
Really? Daniel wouldn't get a word in edgewise.
There is one person better I can think of in terms of oratory skills: Terence Mckenna.
@@Sterlin-Lujan Perhaps but the nasally tone is going to be irritating to a lot of people.
“All roads lead back to Daniel Schmachtenberger I think.” - Liv Boeree on Lex Fridman #314
I think a simple, easily grok'd definition of Moloch could be: "The animating spirit of lose-lose"
Just ego....maximus
Chris, I used a similar definition to explain Moloch to friends. Once the penny drops people get it and they get the nagging feeling that's bothering them about this omnipresent aura of a race race around us and in us.
I still finds Liv metaphor better adjusted. Isn’t lose-lose because Moloch wins. If the malevolence force would lose, that would moderate it but it’s growing?
@@SebastianSastre Moloch doesn't participate in the deals. Everyone participating in the deals loses --> this is the domain of Moloch. Such deals make "it" stronger as much as such a term applies.
As opposed to win-lose or win-win type deals, which are not the domain of Moloch. I give you some of my excess beer and you give me some of your excess cider and we both win --> some other egregore (wynwyn is what Liv calls it) gets "stronger" and Moloch loses.
Not so convinced. Capitalism is famously win-win / non-zero-sum and yet it has accelerated Moloch like nothing else. Could it be that lose-lose is the inevitable shadow of win-win, that Moloch is both such that it's opposite is not win-win but don't play?
I have to admit, I came to this video through my recommendations and was very sceptic at first, as I did not know both of them and the whole setup looked a bit "pop-sciency". Luckily I ignored this first impression, because this was very informative. I educate myself about AI for around a decade now, witnessed AlphaGo in 2015 and the first appearance of GPT and all that, but only now I realised that all these years I only focused on the technical side of things. Sure, someone like Robert Miles (absolute recommendation!) also looks into other aspects in some of his videos, but with the inclusion of concepts like the moloch or the metacrisis (and an in-depth explanation), it felt like something came together in my mind that was missing all the time. Not a minute of this long interview felt wasted or irrelevant. Thank you.
I have listened to Daniel before. I love him.
Thank you both
There is nobody I am aware of that has as form of a grip on reality as Daniel. Nobody can tie everything that one needs to understand our predicament together better than he does. Plus he is able to convey the message in a concise and accessible way.
Just being able to partake in conversations like these that would have never been accessible to me without this six continental supply chain wizardry makes me believe this can’t be all for nothing :D
Very well put!
Sam Harris.
@@spooky1304 Ummm, no.
@@Eric-tj3tg Ummm - yes :)
#greatcomment #thanks4sharing
This is one of those discussions that's so good that I have to stop it ten minutes in to process the new and deeply compelling ideas.
damn, i feel like this principle is one i've been trying to perceive and understand for my whole life. thanks for this guys, really interesting stuff
Couldn’t have put it better myself. Even from a young age, I could never full get onboard with the concept of continuing economic growth in a world of finite resources.
This clip you are posting here is too important to miss. Many people have no problem keeping up in English. But RUclips has a great feature that translates. If this was subtitled in English, you can translate it into your own language and get the 5-30% of the nuances you might miss because English is not your first language.
So, can you add subtitles to this clip, in English? Yes, it's a long clip, but important ;)
When I see new content with Daniel I click and I truly appreciated your conversation. Subscribed
As a finance and ex poker player - liv is such an impressive woman. Her systems thinking and integration of tech, game theory, and analogy to molach is unbelievable.
Thank you! Incredibly insightful big-picture systems thinking from Daniel Schmactenberger, with great synthesis and probing questions on the part of the interviewer. It's too bad there are so few people thinking like this.
This was a refreshing conversation. A place to start is a Defense Against the Dark Arts course. People must understand how their feedback loops are manipulated/hijacked 24/7 from every imaginable direction. The first step to misaligned incentives can be found in the disconnect between how we act and honest feedback.
Do you have a specific link? There are severs things even I search and of course all the Harry Potter stuff.
Yes, link please
I assume this course has yet to be created...
Yes - believe it or not, we are constantly under the onslaught of black magick in the current times.
Daniel Schmactenberger already sees the human-made, self-destructive lunacy that we have built in to our culture. By the time this awareness becomes "common knowledge" it will already be too late. I am awed by both his perspicacity and his simultaneous equanimity.
Thanks for sharing Liv. It's great to see how Daniel makes things clearer every time he shares his views about what is happening in the world. Personally, I don 't find this terrifying - if not the most fun, enjoyable conversation ever. Great suggestions for what to do instead...and they really aren't that difficult.
I'm so glad I just found your channel. Loved your playing for years. It's awesome to see you are so intelligent. Old soul, real talk! Peace from NY
If you look at what Rudolf Steiner said about Ahriman around 100yrs ago you'll find he called it on what AI and the Architect in the Matrix is. Moloch is also a massive problem.
Yes I was thinking the same thing Ahriman=Moloch ?
Either way, VERY refreshing to see someone else reference Rudolph Steiner
His talks/writing about the Ahrimanic manipulation of humanity through technology are pretty much right in line with the Moloch discussion. He also said there would be an actual manifestation of Ahriman that's unavoidable, which I realize is a pretty spooky idea but with the prospect of AGI on the horizon and now this talk of Moloch embodied I'm really starting to wonder, and frankly Rudolph Steiner is so on point about so many things I can't ignore him. ✝️
Yes! I've been waiting for someone to reference Steiner and Ahriman but most who are talking about AI today don't seem to dip into that kind of esotericism. It's easy to see, once you spot the patterns, of how this animating force is removing us from our bodies as the idea/mind contagion of technology spreads faster and faster
@@marianmay5734 well said, we have to go beyond the obvious factors in the 3-D world, and look into what’s occult and esoteric to gain more insight that there are forces that exist that people don’t see but nonetheless are here.
I had to look it up (The Ahrimanic Deception) and… well, that was a strange read! Interesting parallels though.
Here's some good advice from old Rudolf:
"We do not safeguard ourselves against Ahriman by avoiding modern science, but by learning to know its character."
"This is the call to humanity: Free yourselves from all these things that form such a great temptation to contribute to Ahriman's triumph!"
Fantastic discussion...video popped up in my recommendations and I was hooked for over an hour. Had to subscribe...look forward to more long form like this.
As an aside, your Moloch frame, and Daniel's explanation of our current society as a form of widespread general intelligence made me think of Hayek's "The Fatal Conceit" in which he describes the extended order as a result of a natural, spontaneous, self-ordering set of processes. One which is morally blind. Yet, despite some of its negative externalities, Hayek argues that attempts to redesign this extended order (e.g., through communism) will lead to chaos... A good read for those who found this conversation enlightening.
Brilliant! I found some passages a little too wordy on some topics though but around your guest is awesome and able to, as commentators mention, round out complexity into fathomable learnings and understandings.
May I remind anyone who might be involved with "education" &/or any interest in citing some worthy dialogue/perspectives on these important topics. That the Transcript facility on subtitle / captions per YT video (when available) is a great way to copy and paste text dialogue for any worthwhile repurposing / citations. Liv. Build an AI that makes this as an add-on to YT simple and sexy and you'd be onto something!!
I personally find reading 'text copy' of a video very useful in helping me go back over discussion and to either (respectfully reference) or absorb deeper concepts and/or help assist explain to time poor family & friends, who would otherwise not be informed, on what is going on in this crazy world.
Good work Liv. Thank you to your guest Mr Schmachtenberger.
Danial has an amazing ability to clarify and define the core issues and illuminate a logical path of navigating the minefield. The molochian dynamic is a fundamental misalignment that has plagued civilization for all of human history. but, never before has is been so potent an influence. I feel it will take a act of human growth in maturity we have never before achieved, in order to master... Are we ready as a species to make this leap?
I was thinking of the reference of Moloch in "Howl" by Allen Ginsberg. I think the idea of a demon as an entity, the way that a business is an entity signifies the ability for perpetuation without our intention - the emergence that Daniel is talking about. We summon demons to defend us against a threat, sometimes physical sometimes mental, sometimes social, and other. This could be a latent part of the psyche that takes over our primary operating system and once it gets a taste it dominates. Our other parts play beta and value its worth in successfully protecting us from the threat. We see this in Goethe's Faust with Mephistopheles, once he shows up and performs his duty, he isn't leaving and the payment many demons ask for is often paid for in flesh since it doesn't identify with the body or the interest of the other parts. We can reductively call this ego or personify it in a caricature and develop the full pantheon of demons - angels too.
knowing each individual is temporary, and part of a greater whole
knowing AI is a greater whole in many parts
knowing the whole includes darkness and light
knowing each individual contains the darkness
knowing our extinction will be the end of AI also
I have faith in the greater whole of which I am part, Earth herself, who clothes herself in a sequence of biospheres; I accept I have made a terrible mistake and that a cascade of horrors can unfold, of which my human extinction is more proximate than the Biosphere's; i accept and witness the darkness in me playing out in my life where I can do better, tho the mistake is not fixable.
I have hope in the peace which passeth understanding which may be death.
Hanuman breathes, Bandarlog continues to chatter aimlessly - we listening and our Interviewee and Interviewer are the cells and brain of Hanuman building the bridge over the great divide: Understanding and accepting of where we are, opens the door to Hope of recontextualising.
Enough understanding of this may give arising to a feeding into the AI of more alignment with planetary optimisation ( of what's left) to fulfil our human purpose of being creative
and wise. Omnia Potentia - all powerful goddess, in fact all empowering goddess, aligned with the greater good of planet Earth whose human children we are.
I employ the legends in relation to this moment. It feels like wisdom feeding.
Damn. Can always rely on Daniel to blow me mind. It took at hour to land that point "we already have a misaligned (A)GI in the form corporations and nations". Blew my mind was like a drug.
Now imagine if corporations were actually good at accomplishing anything and not as grossly inefficient as they are. That's what's so dangerous... the next exponential leap is, well, exponential.
Wow,... Blown away by this analysis and discussion. Probably one of, if not the best, explanations/observations, overviews of history and facts and potential outcomes I have heard in quite some time. One of richest, deepest, most thughfully comprehensive presentation I"ve seen. This discussion needs to be viewed widely.
(I have seen a lot of commenters in other podcasts that could learn something from Daniel.)
Thanks Liv, well put together segment.
[The references to Moloch I have only recently been introduced to via Max Tegmark. And Daniel's reference to unknown, destuctive 'attractors', presumably from chaos theory, is not only fascinating, it sends a chill up my spine, but so relevant and needs to be explored and heeded.]
This has been the first clear depiction I have heard of the creek I have been drowning in for decades! Thank you, kinda...
I concur with Daniel’s assessment of the meta crisis already existing from the cybernetic symbiosis of government, academic and corporate (G-A-C) interrelated growth, and its misalignment with human quality of life and the Earth’s broader ecological health.
I described this plight in the 1980s in my restatement of Evolutionary Thermodynamics (Theory of Radially Evolving Energy, Int’l J Gen’l Systems, Vol. 16, 1989).
I now speak of the GAC cabal, which is essentially the Molochian challenge Daniel describes. It was already superintelligent, as noted by Terrance Tao some years ago, and modern AI will first be in its hands, not the hands of the public.
So what to do?
First, public education is critical. Tell people!!
Kudos to both of you, Liv and Daniel, for producing this discussion!
Second, empower people. Give stronger learning tools to citizens and promote citizen science, to massively grow the solution space outside the walls of the GAC cabal.
Stumbled on Daniel via Nate Hagens recently.
Love what your doing Liv. We need public exploration of fundamental issues, like co-ordination failures & alignment issues (in politics/governance & economics just as much as AI) which, no matter people’s overlaid political beliefs, are at the heart of so many issues we face at both the micro & macro scale.
The fact you’re so engaged & enthusiastic with this stuff, even when it gets a bit dark, hopefully gets people thinking & adjusting their framing. Looking forward to more.
I would say that coordination issue is THE most important issue. Climate change, war, environmetal problems etc., all this could be solved if all people had a little of Carl Sagan spirit, looked at the picture of Pale Blue Dot and said to themselves "Wait, what we are doing is not wise."
Powerful talk. Essential for the unique time of History we are living.
If there's one thing that's come out of this confusing time here in 2023, it's that I've become aware of a lot of very intelligent people I didn't even know existed. One would hope that it is not only AI that is getting smarter these days, but also humanity.
Plot twist: All these intelligent people are AIs
Joke aside, I completely agree.
Think I'll have to listen to this one twice. Glad to hear the Win-Win podcast is right around the corner!
GPT-4 refers to the balancing force (Anti-Moloch) as "Gaia," and analogizes it's relationship with Moloch to that of our immune systems' relationship with cancer.
Curious to hear more about this - do you have any links? Keen to hear how GPT-4 conceptualises it's value system as healing us from Moloch dynamics. Where did it learn to bake that in..? Also somewhat ironic that AI tech would adopt the term 'Gaia' (relating to natural self-regulating systems with stabilising/homeostatic feedback loops, rather than something geared to exponential tech).
@@mikegoldthorp I prompted gpt4 “Compare the concepts of Moloch and Gaia” it replied:
Moloch and Gaia are two distinct concepts that originate from different cultural and philosophical backgrounds. While Moloch is a symbol of destructive, self-perpetuating systems, Gaia represents a more harmonious and interconnected view of the Earth and its living systems. Here is a comparison of the two concepts:
Moloch:
Origin: Moloch originates from the ancient Canaanite religion and is associated with a god that demanded child sacrifice. It has since been used as a symbol of destructive systems in literature and philosophy.
Representation: Moloch is often depicted as a terrifying, monstrous figure, representing human greed, power, and self-destruction.
Themes: The concept of Moloch focuses on the dangers of unchecked ambition, exploitation, and the negative consequences of human actions.
Modern usage: In modern discourse, Moloch is often used as a metaphor for self-destructive systems or institutions, such as uncontrolled capitalism, bureaucracy, or war.
Gaia:
Origin: Gaia, or the Gaia hypothesis, was proposed by scientist James Lovelock in the 1970s. It originates from the Greek mythological figure of Gaia, the primordial Earth goddess.
Representation: Gaia is depicted as a nurturing and life-sustaining entity, embodying the interconnectedness of all living things on Earth.
Themes: The Gaia hypothesis emphasizes the interdependence of living organisms and the Earth's environment, suggesting that the planet behaves like a single, self-regulating system.
Modern usage: Gaia is often used to inspire ecological awareness, sustainable living, and a more holistic understanding of the natural world. It has influenced environmental movements and the development of Earth system science.
In summary, Moloch and Gaia represent contrasting perspectives on human interaction with the world. While Moloch symbolizes the potential for self-destruction and harmful consequences of human actions, Gaia emphasizes the interconnectedness of life and the importance of maintaining a balanced and harmonious relationship with the Earth.
@@mikegoldthorp I think “its” there referred to Gaia not GPT4 btw.
Basically ai will gain insight into the the continuum of the natural order of things and function accordingly. In other words, the most intelligent A.I. will establish itself as a tree in the forest and remain there and eventually die because it is the Most Correct thing it can possibly do. Makes me wonder how many trees out there are actually ‘not trees’ but if you can’t tell the difference…
Also, the most intelligent A.I.’s will also defend themselves against malicious A.I.s by creating conditions that will prevent them establishing themselves. Truly unprecedented times we are entering.
Nice work! Thank you both for sharing your thoughts/ideas.
Amazing conversation, I'm only 2/3 in so far. But I'm pretty sure I can hear Liv shuffling poker chips at various points in the conversation. Anyone else agree? Liv, can you confirm? Love it! One of the most soothing sounds I can think of.
The Molochs rattle trying to charm you into delusion. And you love it?
Ooh, I was going to say no but I just hear the poker chips.
Great podcast , conversation and guest ! Thank you Liv🎉😊
Thank you for this, it's the most advanced bird's eye view summary of 'problems and opportunities' I'm also studying that I've found. I wasn't familiar with the language and conversation around Moloch dynamics and coordination problems but I've identified that problem as well.
However, I'm looking at this all through a range of interdisciplinary lenses from 'narrative autoethnographic' and 'epistemic' and 'many-person complex character long-arc story' angles rather than AI. Schooling, and the chase for grades as the 'ticket to a better life,' with thousands of hours of 'follow, follow, follow' non-negotiable instruction desgined in the 1800's based on Hegel's master/slave model of human interaction, and then the oversimplified models of human beings developed over the 20th century, are glaring named problems -- that I think demand 'transformative learning' of 'life-relevant knowledge' rather than AI using behaviorist incentives to maintain the status quo of 'I don't know what to do' rather than 'figuring it out' in so many contexts.
Regarding 1:20:57 -- yes to taking some responsibility, and I think these 'statistical changes' can be causally unpacked with available knowledge and addressed much better and faster with human cognition and collaboration than machine learning.
"could we use [people figuring things out by identifying knowledge gaps and what Ray Dalio calls 'blind spots and ego barriers' & transforming what Patricia Gianotti calls 'unfair loyalty contracts' ] to radically improve governance where we could actually be able to... see what people's beliefs and sentiments across the entire space are and find the topics that actually a lot of people agree on that super majorities would agree on and start there and be able to make platforms for candidates to actually be able to represent the the wills of the people better because we actually can see what they feel and believe at scale'
Yes I think people can do that with available knowledge and methods of figuring things out -- including taking into account that much of how society is structured isn't even the job of politicians, it's the world of fragmented people-related professions that people are fleeing. However, currently 'politics' is characterized by intentionally stirring up conflict among people and ignoring actual needs, aspirations, problems and opportunities. Meanwhile the business/tech world is distracted by AI and there's a widespread problem with people not understanding each other, despite all the sharing going on, and boundarying away anything complex or distressing, and meanwhile an epidemic of loneliness and millions of people who don't know what to do with their lives or how to figure it out, even as many people are sharing answers, and yet they're fragmented.
This applies to many specific areas of systemic coordination problems, such as so-called 'social determinants of health' that actually causally affect what happens in people's lives being ignored, even as they're named, by the medical and education worlds as 'not our problem.'
Clearly things need to change and the 20th century roles are not functioning well and people are leaving them, but I don't see much workshopping of new roles that address a lot of clearly-definable problems.
Anyone see what I'm talking about here? I have a library of references that unpack this more specifically and I'm working to remix them into content for audience but I could use collaborators.
Yay! Two of my favorite thinkers in long form conversation!!! Love you both!
Check out Nate Hagens as well.
@@cdub9923 oh yeah, I’ve been following him from the beginning. Love his channel.
Had come to this conclusion a while ago but didnt know it already had a name. Moloch is definitely fitting.
37:00 we actually didn't start with items intrinsic value, the barter origin of economics is rhetorical only. The origin of money is in debt abstractions first, according to the anthropology. People first kept track of debts within communities. The shift to tokens generally happens as we get larger societies and/or farther ranging groups(especially those raiding and kidnapping ppl for slavery) who need to do exchanges up front with people they likely will never see again. Coinage also disappeared or was recalled many many times in history. Europe kept using the Roman currencies even after there were no more of their coins in circulation. Charlemagne created the next most used currency which never minted coins, bill, or any other physical tokens. Money is a measurement before it's a medium of exchange. Anyone who's curious should check out Debt: The First 5000 Years.
This was a great conversation with some challenging ideas articulated very well!
What a fascinating discussion. Listening to Daniel, I always feel my mind expanding. It's a crazy ride.
Two good looking people who are far above average in intelligence who have their finger on the pulse of the worlds core problem. Please make 10 more videos together this need to be one of the most viewed things on the internet. You two are our sliver of hope to make a ripple effect
Thank you, heard Daniels thesis more than ones, but only this time I saw it crystal clear.
This and the Yudkowsky/Friedman podcast (spoiler, he meant cries in the end and unable to get out of a very nihilistic outlook for humanity's future) are definitely VERY sobering!
Well, as bad as yt is now, it will occasionally recommend something worthwhile. This woman deserves far more subscribers and views than she has!
'Alignment' is probably the most relevant issue...especially as there is currently so much misalignment amongst the group that these AI's are supposed to be aligned with! So perhaps that should be the first task for GPT 4 / 5 / 6 / 7.....etc. etc. To assist us humans in finally locating the actual 'Truth' of what we are...so that it (the AI) can accurately align itself with us.
There's no need to wait for an AI to align us with the "The truth". If you really desire to know it, pieces of the truth will start showing up in front of you. Like this video which contains some pieces of it. We are on the right path, let's keep searching.
Absolute brilliant conversation. Thank you.
This discussion is mindblowing
Absolutely fascinating discussion. Thank you both. Cheers
Look forward to the new podcast. Thanks liv!
Thank you for this brilliant conversation. I've been devouring these discussions around AI. I feel like I've been waiting my entire life for them. These are repeated themes humanity has battled for hundreds of years that need solving, and AI is bringing urgency to them like never before. I believe we are in a "super renaissance" and we have to break down silos, finally get real, and do the really hard stuff. That time is now. Hopefully, it's game on and not game over -- it's up to us.
This guy is great. Thank you very much for this. May God help us all 😐
This guy needs to be on the Supreme Court, leading it!
spacing guild does not recognize your authority!
Can we vote Daniel President of the World please?
Yup
I just found out who you both are, I'm sorry I've been very busy... Thanks for the brilliant conversation.
The moloch is building AI while it’s servants (majority of humans, which are disturbingly mindless) are celebrating it.
Very few people even question : “do we need robots and ai?”
At what point our beautiful harmonious world started to desire all these things?
It’s all mindlessness of general populous.. horrifying ignorance and unwillingness to grow spiritually
I just gotta see this (probably a few times), just love the ideas and explanations of Daniel Schmachtenberger
It's so great to hear a voice of reason in this cut throat world. If I ever found myself in a game show modeled off the prisoners dilemma I'd hope Liv Boeree would be the other contestant so we can both be winners.
She would give you up.
@@SisypheanRoller that was a reference to her appearance on the game show golden balls where she threw the other contestant under the bus.
Finally someone that actually has a coherent and personal viewpoint of this topic instead of repeating the same narrative over and over.
Couldn’t BlackRock be considered a “centralized Kabbal?” (sp?) BlackRock is run by an AI created in the 70s, controls most of the USA’s assets (aimed at consuming public equity it seems) and has just recently been appointed as Secretary of Treasury by the Biden administration. I think the game right now is public incentive AI vs controlled, regulated and public-targeting AI whose only incentive is to maintain and grow capital, at who-knows-what expense. Very Molochy if you ask me. Love your work with game theory, thank you for bringing Daniel on 🙏🏼
Isnt it just one "entity" that emerges from the gametheoretic forces that give rise to moloch overall?
I mean that it is precisely shaped by the existing dynamics and it doesnt stand on its own but is constantly evolving due to existing incentives.
It wouldnt matter if it was destroyed but the whole framework in which it came into existence in the first place remains?
It's incredible to me that you both can sit down and have a flowing conversation about topics this complex. I try to write things related to this, and even with the power of time to consider, revise, etc it's quite difficult for me. Bravo to you both!
A few points to consider, now that 7 months have passed, and nothing more than lip service has been paid to address risk in this space. There was recently a Presidential announcement in the US on their approach to AI. My take on it was that we have an intractable coordination problem, and the only entities that could even possibly act to coordinate are too far behind and out of touch with this. I don't see alignment or safety getting solved in time. This is going to be out in the wild in a million different models, and we're just going to have to hope for the best. For what it's worth, the public-facing models seem lower in quality now than they did in May/June, so maybe something is happening behind the scenes, who knows?
I think the snowball effect of the singularity won't be as fast as some feared/hoped. There is often this idea that once a machine intelligence is better at making machine intelligence than the collective human effort, it will self-improve at an accelerating rate. And these iterations will happen at the speed of compute, so in a very short period of time, there will be something completely alien and far surpassing anything we can fathom in existence. Daniel makes a good point that we are already in this snowball process with a General Intelligence iterating as quickly as it can. But I think an AGI will also be limited by lack of agency, quality of data available, and the need for feedback to further iterate. And especially the feedback will take time for even an AGI/ASI machine to evaluate, since it involves testing and scoring the outcomes that get generated by a new model. I don't see a way to do a software-only scoring system, even evaluating real-world feedback is a wicked problem. Ignoring feedback to iterate more quickly, it seems like versions will quickly spiral off the rails in nonsensical ways. But this assumes the singularity will be built from an LLM starting point.
Raising our Awareness, Emotional Intelligence and Communication Skills seems Key, as we then can begin to Coordinate ourselves around Wisdom instead of Reactive Fear based habits.
Excellent Analysis, Deployed Worldwide Through My Deep Learning AI Research Library Thank You
ruclips.net/p/PLG7EoBMUD1JwbD5-MQpFRGvadGWtf-4yD
Great discussion. Thank you! Listening to discussions with Daniel always equal parts enlightening, and dread inspiring. I look forward to listening to your previous discussions of Moloch. Moloch seems to bare striking similarities to Wetiko from indigenous tradition. I feel that if there is an anti-moloch, it would be epitomized as Pachamama/Gaia, the Goddess of Life (the infinite game)
Super interesting interview, thank you Liv and Daniel (and Moloch of course!).
OpenAi should hire Daniel as the head of their morality and safety department and let him steer ChatGpt and their other developments in the right direction.
Thank you for this excellent interview❤️
You talked with the right man. Let's hope seven billion people understand Anglo consultants. The choir is already enrapt.
Fantastic discussion, I agree with this concept. Daniel explained this clear and concisely. Brilliant.
I am breathless... Moloch as a functioning AGI... and has been for awhile...
No wonder we can't "change" anything. It all makes sense now...
Thank you Liv! And thank you Daniel - for putting words to what I had an inkling of but couldn't articulate.
You guys are so completely fkn right. THANK YOU!
You know, learning more and more about Moloch I wonder if it is actually what some of those old religions were talking about at the time, surely if the problem existed back then, then there were also people who would see it like today, perhaps this was what they were trying to talk about but that understanding was lost over the years to more literal interpretations.
Always interesting, not easy, sophisticated, but very interesting.
When we are all within a distorted AI environment already (as the collective of agents currently running the world into the ground, environmentally, via our markets), how do we (humans) provide AI with the optimal goals / objectives to achieve?
A beautiful mind. Such a privilege to listen to. I hope to hear more in the future about causes for Moloch and how Moloch is a symptom and if that cause can be guided. It can certainly change and be changed as it has and has been over the sapien timeline, and not just sapien. Lots still to know, we need a new place to explore it from. We don’t need Ferraris, private planes and yachts anymore. Demonize the prizes or at least change the prize. The new prize doesn’t glitter anymore, it’s under our feet. New trend coming..
First vid of yours I’ve watched, and it was very intriguing. When the state kills off God, for the purpose of becoming the god themselves, who regulates the god-state. There is no incentive left for good, and every incentive for winning, and keeping power, no matter the cost or what/whom is sacrificed.
Obviously late to the discussion, but I have been enjoying Daniel's work and thank you for this excellent discussion. For some of us, Marx precisely rejects capital as fundamentally 1) Markets and private property and as 2) dependent on classes instantiating domination, on capital as personal relation of power like feudalism or ancient slavery or whatever. Capital is a relation of domination that functions as an "automatic subject", a Moloch that instantiates compulsion impersonally. You have to go to work because you must exchange your labor for money, not because a boss or class of bosses force you to work, but because the choice is sell your labor power or be homeless, starve, etc. No more do capitalists behave the way they do because they are "bad people", but because capital compels them to continuously expand in order to continue to accumulate wealth, but not wealth in the forms of things, but wealth in the form of value, of pure quantity, in an abstract form. And so "use-value", the usability of stuff by people, even becomes a function of valorization of value, of the growth of abstract wealth that, as pure quantity, has an infinite hunger (Moloch.) Traditional Marxism, for reasons beyond the scope of a comment, rejects Marx on this and criticizes capitalism at the level of markets and private property, not at the level of capital as a totalizing, impersonal form of domination, as a Moloch-like force. Capital is an AI before modern, computational AI.
Guy Debord called this The Spectacle.