Look What CAC Grading Company Did To PCGS & NGC Graded Coins
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- Опубликовано: 20 дек 2023
- Look What CAC Grading Company Did To PCGS & NGC Graded Coins
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Look What CAC Grading Company Did To PCGS & NGC Graded Coins
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When did cac start grading coins?
Years ago, when ANACS was the only grading company and gave photo certificates, they assigned a grade but on the back of the certificate listed the different grading opinions of all the graders who saw a coin. That was more accurate: Grading is merely an educated OPINION, helpful but not the final word.
I remember when the ANACS photo certificates carried 'split grades', a grade for each side of the coin.
I DISAGREE GRADING A COIN IS ANYTHING BUT SUBJECTIVE.
A COIN IS A PIECE OF METAL ESSENTIALLY, METAL IS MALUABLE TO AN EXTENT, EVERY SINGLE TOUCH/SCRATCH/EFFECT ONCE DONE CAN NOT BE REMOVED. THERE IS SIMPLY A METHOD TO DETERMINE HOW MUCH EFFECT HAS TAKEN PLACE ON THE METAL & SO ON.
Grading IS the final word when it comes to coins at auction.
@@fatlostmedia1376you’re as entitled to your opinion as the next person of course. However if you’re interested the video demonstrates that even the professionals disagree. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as perfection. The concept of perfection is something that we create in order to keep ourselves busy and try to achieve an unattainable standard that does not exist.
@fatlostmedia1376 I disagree, I have seen conservation done on coins where finger marks and where pvc holders have left residue behind on the coin and have all been removed. Though while I wouldn't advise it for copper coins as it can make them turn pink, I disagree how surfaces that have had contamination through some means of human or environmental issue can't be restored.
Having a standardized grading that no coin can deviate from is probably the smartest thing I've heard about coin grading...ever
I have a submission that is ready to go for CAC grading, however, upon watching this, I think I will switch it to PCGS.
Thanks for the video.
Anyone can nitpick and use higher standards for lower grades but the whole purpose of grading is to adhere to widely accepted criteria. Using stricter criteria isn’t helping the hobby at all. This extremely helpful video has officially scared me away from ever using CAC.😮
Several of those coins were arguably problem coins. The owner should have been thankful they were straight graded to begin with. Some people can’t leave well enough alone.
Me too.
Great video. Maybe people will start to realize that paying hundreds of dollars more because of a number decided by a random guy on a random day is ridiculous..
Buy the coin, not the holder.
Wow, that is insane, we always thought PCGS was harsh. Now there's a new bully on bus.
It’s not that their bullying they just have very strict standards
Thank you Daniel for letting the general public know how tough CAC is. Back when it started JA had a good thing going with the green sticker of acceptance of the grade. They should have just stuck to that because now you just made the video of some high dollar coins reduced to 25% of its value hence the 21 peace. My advise to the public go to your local dealer and ask their opinion on weather to grade the coin or not and find what service is best for the coin for the price.
Daniel I wonder what the would do with a PCGS with a CAC sticker sent back to them? Thanks for the videos love your channel.
there is going to be a lot of CAC crackouts/resubmissions to non-CAC grading companies.
Copper scares me for reasons like this. The 1921 peace dollar was robbery in MS-63 is around $1,000. It's probably safe to say the dealer lost over $1,000 in value. I feel bad for the guy
I don't feel bad. That dealer would likely just crack it out and resubmit it with PCGS or NGC. Why feel bad for someone whos playing the crossover game?
As to copper, there are no guarantees. The slabs are not air-tight, nor are they purged of oxygen. They may not have been conserved prior to submitting and may have had PVC or other residue on them. Also, unscrupulous folks try to "gas" the slabs to tone the coins, in a way to lend credibility to the toning since it's in a slab. Especially the older rattlers, and those that already have a CAC sticker on them. It's a big scam, where someone takes a mediocre coin and raises its value 300-500% simply by toning it. Basically fraud, but tough now since the TPGs decided that some artificially toned coins are "market acceptable" and folks are in Teletubbie mode when they buy coins.
@@louieatienza8762 Alot to unpack here, the idea behind grading a coin accompanies the preservation of it as well. What happens before the coin is in the possession of someone else or mishandled prior to submission, is a separate issue. I think copper coins must have a good history, findings and the origins play a factor. Tracing a coins history, provenance, ownership. I don't know about you but, if I spend a significant amount of money on a numismatic item, I plan on being there in person. Aside from gold, I've never made big purchases without knowing what I got into. Grading companies are not a scam, as a coin community we want more assurances with rare coins than here say'. A second or third party weighing in on a coins authenticity gives a buyer security in an investment form.
I am firmly convinced if CAC cannot handle a PCGS label without damaging it they cannot handle the coin without damaging it. 7:08
@bryan4915 The standards are high in who PCGS, NGC hires for grading employees. I've looked into it before, seems like a stringent selection with the prerequisites. I would assume alot of the graders are old collectors who fit the requirements, maybe not on the more common judgment calls. I don't know for sure, I trust the judgment most of the time however experienced dealers call into question some coins that make me second guess. That happens alot, a second opinion is always valuable.
The perfect example of "Buy the Coin, NOT the Holder or Grade". The Green or Gold Bean sticker is coveted at a Premium to collectors, yet all 4 companies can't agree on grades most of the time. It's not that CAC doesn't like toned coins, as I have several toned slabbed coins with the CAC green bean sticker. This situation presented is also another reason why I prefer RAW coins for my collections. This problem exists with other graded collectables as well.
True but the issue I have with pennies for example is if they are not slabbed they oxidize very quickly. Its very different with gold or platinum but even silver will indeed oxidize quickly if not slabbed.
This video really helped me, I was stuck wondering who should I send coins too, now I know, all my top notch coins too CAC and my other coins that aren't as critical I'll send too PCGS... Thanks 😊👍😊!!!!!!!!!!!! You saved me money... CAC wants the absolute best samples because they're going to give you a real grade according to that, PCGS and NGC are more for average coins...
A lot guestional submissions in that lot,as a collector I appreciate the value CAC has brought to the market by weeding out the guestionable coins that the bigger graders are pushing thru ,ther been inconsistencies with pcgs and ngc I prefer tighter standards as a collector.
Exactly. The problem however with CACG is that they HAVE to grade marginal coins as a grading company, regardless of what their stickering service does. They can't apply their stickering guidelines to grading, as a coin that just sneaks in at 67 for example has to get a 67 whether they think it's marginal or not. I feel they missed the boat here. They could have used a white label for marginal coins, a green label for solid coins, and a gold label for exceptional coins, the same way Albanese would assign "tiers" to certain coins before CAC - "A" coins that are exceptional for the grade, "B" coins that are solid for the grade, and "C" coins for marginal coins that are correct for the grade.
I agree with you Daniel, AI will and probably would be a better fit for grading our collection. We spend a ton with Pcgs, Ngc, and Cac. Who's to say those graders aren't having a bad day when grading our item's! I would trust "YOUR" grading before trusting Pcgs and the others, for I've been following you for some time now and you are 100% HONEST AND FAIR! Thank you so much for all your hard work and informative important information. God bless...
The problem is, there's too many grades. The old letter grade system would be far better - BU, Choice BU, Gem BU, Superb Gem BU, Perfect Gem BU, and then pluses in between. Everyone can understand that. No one can understand the difference between 66+ and 67. And to be honest too many 67 coins are 66s with toning bumps, something that really irks me.
Everyone thinks AI would be "fair" but it won't. Because the TPGs pay the developers that create the AI, so the AI will be tailored to the TPG's wishes. And then it would be very easy for dealers to manipulate the AI, once they have an idea of what the algorithms are. Also, AI would not be able to detect certain fakes like the famous "omega" gold. There's a reason why that form of intelligence is called "artificial" - it will bring artificial results.
Glad I am a member of ngc. I tried to join cac when they first started and they weren't accepting new coins. Thank goodness. Ty friend appreciate you
CAC trying to make a statement? It might backfire on them…
It won't. There are far to many people that support them for them to have to worry about what some of us think.
It backfired on them for me!
@@TruthLivesNow Me too, and I don't care if they're worried about it or not.
I believe it definitely will as we are learning to stay away from them. No one wants to get their coins bumped all the way down until they have no value. I'm definitely NOT going to them unless I'm just getting a sticker on ANACS or NGC grading.
I won't be sending the first coins I've ever had graded to CAC after hearing a few bad opinions from other people and then this video to ice the cake.
I laughed at those 70s that got bumped down to 68. I've seen so many of those bulk submission silver eagles getting a rubber stamp MS70 grade, often with minor stains that were ignored. That grade is handed out way too much for modern coins
Not only that, a 'First Strike' designation on coins of small mintage such as modern commemoratives is laughably meaningless.
An issue of less than 100,000 pieces (such as several modern gold commems) is knocked out in a few days or even in one. Those 'first...' labels only indicate who got theirs graded before a deadline.
One of the 68s he showed had a blue spot in plain sight which is instant 68 max. This video sure has an agenda
I bought a 1oz Libertad back in 2020 from APMEX graded by PCGS as MS-70. Likely a bulk submission the coin had multiple milk spots it looked horrible considering the cost which even with the silver premiums at the time was well north of $170. I filed a dispute and returned the coin for a refund.
@@Meow_Merchant
Buy the coin, not the holder.
@@alejsc2 I have to agree. Those LWCs were horrendous. Whatever dealer decided to try and cross them wither has no clue or is looking for a cash grab. Every Morgan and Peace dollar that was details scratched had scratches. So many slabs get gassed to artificially tone the coins, and turn a $15 slab into potentially a $200 slab.
Now, I’m thinking twice about sending coins to CAC! 😬
From what I've been seeing I wouldn't submit coins to CACG. They are still new at this, and it shows. Also, for copper coins the grade on the holder is the grade at time of being encapsulated -- copper can change over time. Why anyone would want to downgrade a PCGS coin to CACG is beyond me. Yikes!
“They” are not new at grading. The founder of CAC was the founder PCGS AND NGC. CAC has been critiquing PCGS and NGC coins for over 15 years. There may be no other person on the planet that is more capable at evaluating US coins than John Albanese.
The problem with "environmental damage" is that each grading company will have it's own idea of what is unacceptable and what is not. The problem I see with that is 2 collectors who never messed with their coins but had different environments in which they stored their coins could have 2 completely different results after many years of storage. So one coin is worth $200 and one coin is worth $2000 and neither coin has ever been altered. Same with minor scratches that can only be seen at a certain angle. Just lower that coin a grade. A details grade is just too harsh.
I definitely would be staying away from sending coins to CAC. Since I'm a nobody, I probably couldn't anyway. ANACS is my favorite if I needed stuff graded. Otherwise, I really prefer raw coins. I quite often disagree with details coins. I find it hard to believe that there are more than a handful of coins over 100 year old that haven't been washed dipped or wiped. To me it's all in the overall look of a coin. Obviously a bunch of scratch lines ruins a coin. No luster, stinks. But they use "Details " way to often. Again I'm just some smuc with a few over paid coins.😮
I agree - I have had both NGC and PCGS punt on coins they thought were questionable but wouldn't say so. ANACS will say very clearly (and I have had coins go both ways). it makes a lot of difference because at least you know where you stand.
Thank you for sharing. That is good to know. Good luck CAC.
Thank you so much for this video. I had a representative from Heritage recommend I send an expensive proof coin to CAC to enhance its value with its sticker before selling. I will not even consider it now
I would send it.
Sticker isn't the same as grading, not much downside to a sticker just $20, if you don't get it
I would just go to get the sticker but I wouldn't let them grade it.
Thank you for this video. The topics you post are great. I always learn something new. Keep the videos coming and Merry Christmas to you and family.
This reminds me of when you think you have a nice raw coin and you bring it to the dealer to get a buy price on it. They will pick it apart since the future customer or grading company will pick it apart. I feel sorry for the dealer who ended up losing thousands of dollars on this CAC submission. Absolutely brutal.
I don’t feel bad for him.
He had perfectly acceptable coins, but he was just greedy.
And what fool re-submits MS70 Eagles?
Did he think they would come back as MS75 ?
lol true. Was there any coin in this video worth submitting if it were raw other then the questionable 1921 peace ?
@@ordinaryman1904 yeah, it was either for educationnal purpose or totally useless to do xd
@@henny01 it was educational alright.
He learned not to do that again !
LOL !
Based on what I am seeing, CAC is going to be relegated to stickering coins. And you were certainly right about these being future collector's items. Stunning!
I will stick with the top 3, C A C can take a hike.
LOL whos the top 3? If youre suggesting ANACS is thats very laughable
ok true, ANACS has their problems.@@Anonymous-a-hole
What’s the third?
That defeats the whole purpose of sending in a PCGS or NGC graded coin in order to try and obtain a CAC sticker.
Hi Daniel, I always enjoy watching your videos, they are very informative.
Thank you, Daniel, for this interesting video and for being so cutting-edge with regard to technology. In the news this week we can read that the University of South Australia has announced that their AI program, trained on known diagnosed and control (diagnosis-free) subjects, can determine which children are autistic by scanning their retinas. Visual AI is no longer science fiction; it is here, now, and the sooner coin-graders move to AI, the better. With regard to CAC, the problem of progressive toning on previously red, previously slabbed copper coins is inherent to the metal itself, and calling it "environmental damage" carries a false and misleading implication as to the cause. With copper, darkening is inevitable and transient colours are just a fun side-effect along the way, like a sunset before night, so toning is always of a matter of "how much," "how pretty," and "for how long." If you care enough about permanent colouration, switch to collecting gold coins instead.
Great video Daniel! The only good thing I think about CACG being so conservative is if you buy a CACG coin “sight unseen” you know it will be strongly graded. I hope 😉. Thank you again 😎🤙🏼
Who ever had those coins should've stayed with PCGS .
This whole grading thing is crazy. Oops that coin has a scratch, might as well say its just too old of a coin to grade. Oh, cant grade this one, looks like it got a drop of water on it 80 years ago. So now you can take a PCGS coin, send it in to get a CAC sticker, then remove the coin from the slab and send it to CAC and find out what they really think of the coin. Yea thats how silly this whole overpriced service seems to this 65 year old guy. Almost makes me not want to get back into coin collecting again. 😢. Just the thought of loosing thousands on an investment coin because a grader had a fight with his wife the night before my coin was looked at. Yes its subjective, I get it. Just seems the new kid on the block wants to be the top coin snob.
I’d be sick and I mean sick!!! I’m a fan of toning….Thanks for the eye opening video! As always, you’re the best! Keep teaching.
That can be scary for people who have serious coin collections. Thanks for sharing, Daniel.
CACG is a stickler for detail. I like it. I'm the same way. I have many, many coins that to others look great but to me they don't make the grade. I think CACG spends more actual time with the coin in hand performing grading than PCGS or NGC spend. I know NGC and PCGS handle the coins quickly and do not dwell on any particular coin except for maybe very high value coins. CACG obviously looks closer at these coins and has a far more stringent set of rules for coins they certify.
Call me crazy, but since we have (supposedly) standardized on the ANA 70-point scale that is just a slightly modified version of the original Sheldon Scale, grading companies, rather than intentionally trying to get the coveted "Most hardass grading company award", grades SHOULD be (and should is a very big word) relatively similar, not this completely divergent. We either have an industry standard or we don't. And if we don't, and each grading company is just making it up as they go, making it meaningless. Of course, we could comment about what kind of a dumbass sends a PCGS 70 to be crossed, and they "deserve" what they got due to being so greedy, but that is precisely what CAC is trying to do.
Don’t temp your luck cracking out straight graded, high grade coins.
Note to self, don't send them a raw coin unless it's blast white and relatively mark-free. Those dollars labeled scratched were VERY ticky-tack. On the other hand, seeing how stingy they are, buying a coin that's straight graded by them seems like a worthy buy.
I can't figure out why someone would try to cross NGC / PCGS coins to CACG? A new company without a track record to review. I'll keep mine as is! THanks for the info.
As much a commentary on CACG overly strict grading practices as it is on decision making in trying to cross coins to CACG. Also raises the possibility of seeking out otherwise nice-looking CACG holdered coins, cracking them out and sending them to one of the other TPG for a possible upgrade.
All in the eye of the beholder! Not a real fan of graded coins as a rule. Have used them as sort of a guide but generally purchase upon my own assessment especially as I only collect for personal pleasure not as a pure investment although it's nice to know there is some value in ones interest. Thanks for the video and my condolences to the person who submitted the coins for the most part anyone would be proud to own them
Incredible information here Daniel, thank you for sharing.
It appears CAC does not value toning as a desirable feature on coins. I personally love most toning on coins, especially if it’s rainbow toning spreading from the center of the coin outward.
IMO, PCGS and NGC are the two most reputable grading companies thus I will continue to send my coins for grading to either or. It’s just not worth sending to CAC. Thank you. 👏🏼
That's weird because a lot of old coins with dark natural toning get CAC stickered, even if the toning is unattractive. They seem to value coins that have never been messed with, and so when they give opinions on more modern coins with unusual colors they will give them details grades just in case they have been messed with.
It seems clear that CACG is grading conservatively. I just bought a CACG Walking Liberty in MS65+ and at first glance it looks like a 67. I'm quite sure PCGS and NGC would give it at least a 66. I suppose it will take time to find out how to price these coins fairly.
From a buyer's standpoint, these slabs are fantastic. Dealers, who pay to submit these coins, may not be so pleased.
The conservative grading I'm okay with. As a buyer. Knowing I'll likely not get a straight graded problem coin is nice.
Buy the coin, not the holder.
@CoinHelpu You mentioned that you use all the different grading services. If you haven’t done a video about it yet, it would be interesting to know when/why you would choose any given service over another. Really like your videos!😊
Remember Back in the day when a grading company didn’t like the look of a coin… They’d send it back “Body Bagged” just in a flip that said “Cleaned” etc. Sound familiar?
An old dealer once advised me while assembling a Dansco 7070 not to crack out MS graded coins, because they’d likely not get the same grade again. Words of Wisdom.
Some of those regrades I agree with and some I don't. The lesson is be very careful when you resubmit coins when you are happy with the grade they already have.
It's better to send the coins in their original PCGS or NGC holders to CAC for possible stickering as it's cheaper and you won't lose the original graded coin. I think CAC is very strict and some of my coins wouldn't sticker because of being cleaned but were in PCGS and NGC holders problem free. The higher the value of the coin the less likely it will get a CAC sticker or get into CACG holder. That $20K 1799 10$ gold coin in AU53 will most likely be deemed cleaned by CACG.
Good day Daniel, I believe that CAC is trying to be a very conservative grading company. I myself would not use them for any coins that you want to resubmit especially coins that has a 70 grade. Until they establish a list of how they will grade on errors and varieties. They already establish that coins with toning are environmental damages so no use sending them these types of coins to them. Thanks again Daniel for making a 14:23 co
Based on your video today Daniel which is quite informative, that I am of the opinion that CAC is just too conservative. I think Daniel that you speak for the vast majority of dealers who think that the opinions of the three best grading companies are usually really decent with some exceptions. ANACS NGC and PCGS offer respectable opinions. I think CAC's best role in their services should be to affirm their seal of approval OR if not to just simply not put their seal on a different holder. This was a horrible outcome for coins that IMO fall under coins that were probably toned due to exposure to paper on rolls, the case of OBW. Those Peace dollars are totally ruined by CACs grading. This brings us back to the idea of buying the coin and not the holder. Thank you Daniel.
Seems that CAC is TRYING to raise the standards. I think they have missed on this.
I think they are more correct on grading than a company that is pumping out thousands of coins a day . With the mass amount of coins that funnel through there , there might be errors in grading because of not being as thorough as they should be . Tens of thousands of 2023 ASE slabs out there right now . How can they be really objective if they are being objective at all . I know your opinion will vary from mine , these are my thoughts as a novice to numismatics. Have a good one
It would be interesting to take some CAC stickered PCGS/NGC slabs remove the CAC stickers and send those in for grading to see if they're downgraded.
Totally agree with you Daniel about AI bcuz I truly believe at times that us humans get it wrong. We can one minute call it something it is not. I say a simple answer for grading should be a 3 way grading standard. Number 1 is a reputable numismatic grade your coins and then it'll have to be graded by AI and if both are in agreement then one final numismatic grader to approve of both human and AI gradings. I know that's a lot but it would keep true authentics and weed out the human errors.... Just my thoughts
Thank you Daniel very informative.
All grading companies should all have the same value and basis for grading coins but like you said as human grading each one might grade it more liberally while the next one might judge it conservatively and it shouldn't matter who grades a coin it should be consistent no matter who grades and where
Tempted to dip all my silver with toning before sending them for grading due to companies labeling them as questionable color. Pretty Irritating to see "questionable color" with obvious natural toning.
I agree!
Holy cow, that was absolutely brutal. Thanks for sharing. AI would be tough to pull off to detect luster and cleaning but it's likely inevitable. Cool part is if the scans are saved, it could literally rank coins overall instead of just grade, so you'd know exactly if you have the #1 best coin.
Interesting. No more Sheldon scale, just rank them from top to bottom. Hum…
Cracking questionable coins out of straight-graded PCGS and NGC holders is a fool’s game. Even more foolish is to crack out MS70 coins. What are they hoping for? MS71? How much money was wasted on downgrading these coins? Is CACG too strict? Possibly. But I’d rather have these coins in PCGS and NGC holders anyway, as the market for coins they’ve graded is well established.
Be careful what you wish for with AI grading. The software may end up being just as strict (perhaps more so) than CACG. When your AI-graded coins all come back with details grades, you may suddenly miss the human equation in coin grading.
AI would not be more strict, it would be way more consistent and actually be able to figure out what exactly happened to each coin. I’ve not over looked anything when it comes to AI.
@@CoinHELPu It’s simply too early to tell. A computer will be able to see damage that most people would overlook. The question is how sensitive will it be set for determining a grade. It will only be as good as the human programming behind it.
Why the fuck people are paying big premiums for brand new silver eagles that nobody can tell from the next grade down is the better question.
@@mjanovec it’s not to early. It would be calibrated to ignore anything that can’t be seen with a 5x loupe and the whole intention of AI is deep learning. It will form a grade baseline for all grades.
@@CoinHELPuI’d like to see it done. Run the tests!
I do like that both CAC stickers and the PCGS stickers are retained. Two opinions are better than one!
Thanks for the information, watching and liking your vids
If only someone from CAC could comment on some of these graded coins. How coins cross over and what are their grading standards related to toned or scratched coins. I'm wondering if CAC is now classifying all toned coins as Env Damaged as a standard grade.
Thank you for the information 👍😊.
So far I've sent 3 submissions to CACG. I've encountered a little bit of what you received here as well. It's clear to me that CACG doesn't want to straight grade anything with color not on the Sunnywood scale, anything with carbon spots, rough surfaces, scratches or any suggestion of interrupted luster. That's fine now that I understand what the rules are. I got a batch of straight grades but every coin was one or 2 grades lower than I believed were deserved. I guess this means that straight graded CACG coins are top, top.
Big opportunity to buy up all CAC details slabs at a bargain, crack and resubmit elsewhere. 👍🏼
There is no bargain when buying a CAC coin, CAC coins demand a premium over all grading companies...
Imagine my surprise to find out that CAC is now a 'Coin Grading Service' instead of a 'Coin Grade Verification Service' which is what they started out as? I guess I've been out of it for far too long.
Having said this, it appears to me that 'CAC' is now vying for that 'Top Spot' in the Grading Company Industry.
I agree with Daniel, on this limited aspect and with strict limitations AI can do it better. No hangover need apply
Mr. Daniel Thank you as always for sharing. I agree that AI is the next step in grading and potentially advancing the hobby because it will be a true impartial, non-bias and unemotional evaluation. I'm sure there will be some scrutiny at first but all technology will have to work out the bugs before it can be refined.
Just curious - how is AI going to work with toning?
This CAC is INSANE, hands down. They completely change the hobby! Kick them to the curb! Everyone relies on the current established standards, so to completely dismantle the established to this degree is like I stated, "INSANE." I guess I should have just said, " I don't care for the radical change?" Yes, that sounds more politically correct.
This was a Great one, Daniel.
Blessings,
Louis
LOL you sound ridiculous. JA started NGC and helped cofound PCGS. Its not a radical change, its a return to the old standards from 1980. I will say some of those ms details scratch coins were a bit harsh, but i agree with many of the quest color grades.
Gerry Fortin sent 11 Seated Liberty dimes that had been straight graded by PCGS & NGC to CACG for grading. Out of the 11, 8 came back with details grading.
Thanks for this video. Very eye opening. I wonder if some of those Lincoln cents turned color after being holders by PCGS years ago? Some of the scratched coins were pretty harshly graded by CACG. But to be honest, I wonder how some of them made it past PCGS. The silver eagles were hammered by CACG so I will not be sending any modern coins to them. My experience tells me never to send in a valuable coin that is straight graded by PCGS unless your just trying for a crossover or a green bean!
WOW , hard ta see the down grading " CAC " put on these coins . I thought that a green bean sticker was great ! What an eye opener for me . I've been colecting for more than 60 years . ( tho I have been robed 3 times ) and yes they were in a safe too . Seeing this I would NEVER send any coin too CAC . Thank you so much for this and other videos on RUclips . Tom , Daytona Beach , FL. 28, Feb. 2024 .
Very interesting and educational (for me) video. Thanks. I am assuming the dealer noted broke those coins out of their original holders to submit to CAGC? At the loss he is or will take to sell in the new holders he now has to consider sending back to PCGS/NGC to have a chance at recouping all his grading fees and original cost !! 🤯 Wow...good luck. I don't think conservation is the word I would use for the CAGC results but I'm just a relative rookie when it comes to grading.
Interesting, on the ASE's it goes to show that PCGS and NGC aren't really grading the coins when it comes to full monster box dealer submissions. They are just deciding on a certain number of 70's to send back and calling the rest 69's without really looking at the coins unless there is a clear flaw to give it a 68.
With this bit of information, I've wanted to get some of my collection graded. Looked into the memberships and fees for submissions and for a freetime hobby I do on occasion, I can't justify spending the money. Among alot of the collectors forums and pages online recommend getting your submissions checked by no less than 3 independent coin dealers and get their opinions first before the considerable investment that may have unsatisfactory results. As a newbie to the hobby, it's fun and exciting to find really nice gems hidden in pocket change and coin rolls but it really discourages the hunt and preservation of the history of the coins in general when your questioning the grading process behind these global currency grading companies.
My recommendation is to send 10 of your best coins to ANACS coin grading service. From those results to you can build on your submission savvy, and if a coin comes back the grade you needed you might jump into the resubmission ring to PCGS or NGC for crossover. It's a slow process but coin grading by humans is 80% consistent at best.
I feel like I have seen a lot of CAC coins (little green sticker on a PCGS /NGC holder) that are toned, so that surprised me. CAC was explained to me like 1 in 10 coins come back with the sticker on it, and 1 and 1,000 come back with the gold sticker. So, that being said, you would think they would be way more conservative with their grades.
I've seen red cents tone like that over time sitting in my Dansco album.
Some tough returns. Not sure why anyone would chance the 1921 Peace. Should have left well enough alone. Thanks for sharing
Great video. I am not suprised, I've seen many videos like this from the coin geek and a few others. As well as chatting with people on the IG community. I definitely think CAC is the lowest of the 5 companies. Idc what anyone else says. Their incompetence is out of hand.
Seems like they're really scrutinizing the coins a little too much. How can they just put a "details" label & say "scratched obverse/reverse"? That's what grading is all about! If there are scratches then that knocks the grade down a point or two but it should still get a designated grade unless there's clear evidence that the submission has been cleaned! I'm thinking that they're going to lose some business by playing games with people.
Also, I'm certain that I've been subscribed to you for years now & yet I checked & was unsubscribed! RUclips has been doing some shady things to people's channels. Just FYI.
Thanks Daniel ! When I started the video, I thought CAC got it wrong but the more I watched, I think they got allot of them correct. Toning is touchy but marks, wear and such, shouldnt be and thats where they might have missed some of them and graded too low. To keep it short and hard to convey here...do you want a fluffy grade or a precise grade? Until AI is introduced into helping or even taking over grading completely, you're going to get a fluffy (opinionated type) grade...and that's what grading is for the most part, an opinion. You want truth. You don't want a maybe or could be. In my opinion, and it might not be stated this way in grading, an MS70 should be an absolutely perfect coin in every way to the eye (not a electron microscope). Introducing an AI might destroy what has been graded if resubmitted but IMO, it is, or it isn't. CAC is looking to be too conservative in some ways and in others, right on. Can't wait to see more instances where previously graded coins were sent to CAC. In the end, we need AI.
Agreed. We must begin using AI for grading, but the grading companies must also keep anything that might cause human "subjectivity" out of the programing, i.e.; anything known about the owner, other collections, current prices, etc. etc. Otherwise, big companies submitting may get a better grade than the average Joe on the street. What CAC did to these grades spells doom for what was a respected company. I'd never send anything there anymore, whereas in the past, I may have.
great video thank you !
No way I would EVER send a PCGS graded coin to CAC. WTF did they think would happen? A higher grade?
Thanks Daniel!
I agree with CACG on the toning issues - most of those coins appeared artificially toned to me and should never have received a straight grade from PCGS/NGC. A few of the scratched coins seemed more minor and I wonder if the CACG graders felt the coins had additional more subtle problems that contributed to the details grade. CACG appears to be very strict and after everyone sees this video they may not be receiving too many more crackout submissions. I definitely have more confidence in buying their straight graded coins after watching this video. I am confused about how to submit to CACG - would love for you to do a video on that regarding crossover submissions, pricing, how to submit, turnaround times, legacy grades for CAC stickered coins - do they keep the plus grade on the coin?, etc.
Maybe the long term market impact will be a grading deflation. And a lower survival rate of slabbed coins (!)
New to all this but as a rookie Ive seen so much where you could call it human interpretation as far as grading I totally agree it’s time for “AI” for coin grading.
Thanks for sharing because I was going to go to CAC for grading but now I'm not. Also, I had a 1921s Morgan Dollar that was already graded by ICG at MS66 and I took it to PCGS and they bumped it all the way down to DAMAGE and AU. I lost $12k dealing with PCGS and now my coin is only worth about $27. I think I will go with ANACS or NGC. I will definitely stay away from PCGS and CAC unless I'm just getting a sticker from CAC to go along with ANACS or NGC grading.
You could have opted for minimum grade and not had them reholdered it, but in an ICG holder it was not going to sell for that much.
When it comes to grading coins , I think it should be graded accordingly ( proof should be graded as proof ) . Those Peace Dollars were not proof and some of the scratches should actually be called "Bag marks " even if they were Uncirculated they were still put into a bag with other coins for shipping , the grading should take that into consideration and allow for it . Also you are correct in saying Environmental Damage is a Vague term most of the time . Thanks for the vid .
Who implied that any of the Peace Dollars shown were proofs?
'Bag marks' do not include scratches imparted from objects that weren't other coins.
I agree with you regarding toning / 'environmental damage'. Back when 'BU' was king, 'toning' was widely regarded as tarnish and was often dipped away. When the GSA dollars were released for sale, some of those who ordered lower priced examples that were not labeled 'Uncirculated' ('tarnish' was a disqualifier) received beautifully toned mint state Morgan, Peace, or in some cases Seated Dollars.
Toning is, essentially, 'environmental damage'. Taste is subjective.
Wow, i was recently told this was the opposite that PCGS disliked toned coins and cac loved toned coins.
The pink Clevland wrappers create that beautiful toning.
I’d love those peace ladies too
The last cents were Enders. Sometimes nice sometimes not. But no question on color here.
CAC got too big for their britches
Totally agree AI should grade coins
Interesting, the dealer rolled the dice wonder how much was lost on a gamble
It’s simple. If you are trying to make money, submit to NGC or PCGS. If you collect or invest, buy CACG coins. That’s my take.
I used to think PCGS was bad for the questionable colour and details grading for submissions... I feel bad for the person who submitted these coins.
100% shows why i wont be sending any coins to CAC for grading as all of these coins were graded wrong. the PCGS grade is good and should never change so now those coins would be broke back out and send back to PCGS to be put back into another holder
Warning! Viewer discretion is advised. Send the kids out of the room.
Good day Sir Daniel. Very nice info again. It's all about business sir, thats why. But anyway, I like the coins you've shown. Merry Christmas...
Now it would be interesting to see if NGC and PCGS will give the old grades again :D
Grading coins is Opinions vs Opinions, You are right, We need a better way. AI might help.
I definitely agree with your comment on a.i. grading! Now is the time.
It would be interesting to crack coins out of PCGS and NGC slabs with CAC stickers on them already, then submit them to CACG raw, and see if if CACG agrees with their OWN standards.
Strongly agree that AI is the future of coin grading. The coin community also needs to deal with the issue of cleaning. A light cleaning that the average, well-qualified dealer can't be sure of should not be the kiss of death for a coin like it is now.
Will AI make a distinction between a light cleaning and a heavy cleaning? Or will it simply apply a details grade to both, even if the cleaning is so light that the human eye can barely see it? I suspect a lot of collectors wouldn’t want to know the truth about many of the coins in their collections. They may have a lot more cleaned coins than they realize.