Just played this yesterday, and this is a very accurate review. I'll enjoy it a lot more next time, now that I know how it works. But people like my wife would hate it. Wayyy too complicated. Though it feels like it wouldn't be too hard to make a simplified variant. Something like removing the vault cards would be the easiest. Though I almost feel like the spell cards need a change too. Maybe single-tier spells, or somehow combine the supporters and spells into a single card. So maybe you *get* a supporter, but can't use the ability (spell) until you research them and place a token on them. That would probably streamline this a lot. I'm not experienced enough to figure out how that would impact the balance, though.
I have the opportunity to play this game once each year when I get together with a couple of friends from out of state. This game steadily has moved up in my top 10. The hidden scoring options puts this game over the top compared to other worker placement games. I enjoy the cutthroat opportunities in this game, not all games. I also really enjoy that the players control the length of the round having the ability for players to end a round earlier or later that some players may want. I enjoy games in which the players directly control length of game (ex. Seasons, Terraforming Mars). It's a huge table hog and has some bloat, but in my opinion this deserves more accolades than it's getting these many years later.
Man, this game looks really appealing to me. But I'm not so sure my gaming buddies would enjoy the complexity. I'm curious about whether this game or, say, Five Tribes would produce more analysis paralysis.
I got to play this, it is a solid game. It has a LOT of components, but they do work together well. I think a simpler version is possible with the components if you want less to deal with - perhaps remove the worker abilities, remove the artifacts and money, plus the elector cards and rooms that deal with those. That would put the focus solidly on the most magical aspects of the game, and cut the number of choices for placement enormously. I cannot wait for my kickstarter copy to come in, I have a lot of friends I will be sharing this with.
Thanks, Tom. Great review, you've touched on the positives and the negatives. If the game is "for me" and not "for everyone", then that just means more fun for me :)
It really isn't all that complex. I can teach it in 10 to 15 minutes vs. a lot of heavy games take 30 or so minutes to explain. Gameplay is very simple. On your turn you (optionally) take one Fast-Action, then either place a mage, use a card, or take a Bell Tower card. That's all there is to it.
I played this game today. It was really cool, but I can't help but notice a couple of design flaws. The student councils/yellow mages - why would anyone pick those? I see no relative benefits compared to other classes. Also there's not enough variety in the influence cards. Even if you don't put marks on them, you still have a high chance of guessing them since there's not many in the pool. I would like to see them changing the rules for yellow mages and make them stronger. As they are now, the yellow mages just remains unplayed almost every game. I would like to hear from the people who had more experience with the game on why they think the student council/yellow mages are okay. Also, as a personal opinion, the red mages and the spells screwing up everyone is the most fun part of the game for me.
+Straddllw You would not purposely pick them. But you would have them if, for instance, you played a candidate that starts with 2 of them. Or if you use a Supporter that gave you a red mage but there were no more red mages, so you get a yellow one.
Interesting review. I'm waiting anxiously for mine to arrive, but I expect teaching it will be a chore (unlike Battlecon). But maybe some features can be introduced gradually over a few plays.
We're having a professional tutorial done by Watch It Played, so that should make the learning and teaching pretty easy. :) There are many choices, but the objectives are usually clear, so AP isn't as much of a problem as you might imagine.
Yeah Battlecon is still hard for me to grasp, as a new teacher though I find it's time I'm lacking more then anything else. Level99 makes some awesome games.
I got my copy and have played this once now, personally I'm in love with it. My wife still isn't clear what was going on, our new gamer friend got it during the play through and seemed to like it, and our experienced gamer friend spent awhile afterwards going through all the components and coming up with the best combos. The basics of the game are simple, and most spots are not available at the start of the game, since merit spots and shadow spots aren't available to most people. Really, if it sounds like it might be something you like, give it a shot.
Looks great. Unfortunately I'm the one who has to teach games in my group and I've grown tired of teaching games that have so many little things going on. At this point I would rather play games that are easy to teach and still have a fair amount of depth. Such as Eclipse or Chaos in the Old World. But I would be down to play this if someone else was doing the teaching.
lordxmugen That game was not nearly as complicated as TI3. The mechanics are all quite simple tbh - the only thing complicated are all the special abilities of each space.
Would have been nice for Kickstarter backers to get their paid copies before Vasel got his free copy. There still would have been plenty of time for a review before it hits retail.
They're on a boat still. The free copies were a lot fewer in number, so they could afford to have them shipped by air; that would have been WAY too expensive to do that for the kickstarter copies. It would have been logistically impossible for us to have our copies first.
@James Oh, pleaaaase. Swallow that worthless pout. No, it is an excellent idea to send it to reviewers early, and it probably (almost obviously) comes from the private copies of the designers.
I went to boardgames to avoid the anime-influences in every other aspect of our culture. I'll probably still buy this, but I will cringe each time those trite anime character designs hit the table. I have to wonder what Tom thinks in this regard. I agree that it seems a bit much, however; with my group, we house rule a lot anyhow. I love worker placement games, and if Tom likes it, I might have to stop by my LGS and give it a try. And; a note to all those anime fans out there: I'm not uneducated about the art form, I graduated from Kansas City Art Institute with a fine arts degree. I know and love art, using it every day at my work and home. I just can't stand the inevitability of seeing this style at least once every day. IMHO, Cowboy Bebop reigns supreme, and the likes of Spriggan, Akira, GITS, and Outlaw Star have lost far too much in the way of inspiring new artists and writers.
Tom Vasel STILL can't pronounce 'Indines' right? Seriously? Great review and all, as usual, but every time I hear his pronunciation of 'Indines', makes me cringe.
I wonder how many more reviews Tom could do if he didn't spend time dumping everything on the table and picking it up again
This game looks amazing, and I can't WAIT to get my copy.
Man, I'm pretty excited about this. This looks great. It may take awhile to explain everything, but it seems like it will be easily grasped.
Just played this yesterday, and this is a very accurate review. I'll enjoy it a lot more next time, now that I know how it works. But people like my wife would hate it. Wayyy too complicated.
Though it feels like it wouldn't be too hard to make a simplified variant. Something like removing the vault cards would be the easiest. Though I almost feel like the spell cards need a change too. Maybe single-tier spells, or somehow combine the supporters and spells into a single card. So maybe you *get* a supporter, but can't use the ability (spell) until you research them and place a token on them. That would probably streamline this a lot. I'm not experienced enough to figure out how that would impact the balance, though.
I have the opportunity to play this game once each year when I get together with a couple of friends from out of state. This game steadily has moved up in my top 10. The hidden scoring options puts this game over the top compared to other worker placement games. I enjoy the cutthroat opportunities in this game, not all games. I also really enjoy that the players control the length of the round having the ability for players to end a round earlier or later that some players may want. I enjoy games in which the players directly control length of game (ex. Seasons, Terraforming Mars). It's a huge table hog and has some bloat, but in my opinion this deserves more accolades than it's getting these many years later.
Man, this game looks really appealing to me. But I'm not so sure my gaming buddies would enjoy the complexity. I'm curious about whether this game or, say, Five Tribes would produce more analysis paralysis.
I got to play this, it is a solid game. It has a LOT of components, but they do work together well.
I think a simpler version is possible with the components if you want less to deal with - perhaps remove the worker abilities, remove the artifacts and money, plus the elector cards and rooms that deal with those. That would put the focus solidly on the most magical aspects of the game, and cut the number of choices for placement enormously.
I cannot wait for my kickstarter copy to come in, I have a lot of friends I will be sharing this with.
Thanks, Tom. Great review, you've touched on the positives and the negatives. If the game is "for me" and not "for everyone", then that just means more fun for me :)
I guess I'm weird. That didn't seem too complex to me.
It really isn't all that complex. I can teach it in 10 to 15 minutes vs. a lot of heavy games take 30 or so minutes to explain.
Gameplay is very simple. On your turn you (optionally) take one Fast-Action, then either place a mage, use a card, or take a Bell Tower card. That's all there is to it.
I played this game today. It was really cool, but I can't help but notice a couple of design flaws. The student councils/yellow mages - why would anyone pick those? I see no relative benefits compared to other classes. Also there's not enough variety in the influence cards. Even if you don't put marks on them, you still have a high chance of guessing them since there's not many in the pool.
I would like to see them changing the rules for yellow mages and make them stronger. As they are now, the yellow mages just remains unplayed almost every game. I would like to hear from the people who had more experience with the game on why they think the student council/yellow mages are okay.
Also, as a personal opinion, the red mages and the spells screwing up everyone is the most fun part of the game for me.
+Straddllw You would not purposely pick them. But you would have them if, for instance, you played a candidate that starts with 2 of them. Or if you use a Supporter that gave you a red mage but there were no more red mages, so you get a yellow one.
Interesting review. I'm waiting anxiously for mine to arrive, but I expect teaching it will be a chore (unlike Battlecon). But maybe some features can be introduced gradually over a few plays.
We're having a professional tutorial done by Watch It Played, so that should make the learning and teaching pretty easy. :) There are many choices, but the objectives are usually clear, so AP isn't as much of a problem as you might imagine.
Yeah Battlecon is still hard for me to grasp, as a new teacher though I find it's time I'm lacking more then anything else. Level99 makes some awesome games.
I got my copy and have played this once now, personally I'm in love with it. My wife still isn't clear what was going on, our new gamer friend got it during the play through and seemed to like it, and our experienced gamer friend spent awhile afterwards going through all the components and coming up with the best combos.
The basics of the game are simple, and most spots are not available at the start of the game, since merit spots and shadow spots aren't available to most people. Really, if it sounds like it might be something you like, give it a shot.
This game is really simple. There is a lot in the box...but they are all options.
I’d love to hear what Tom would have cut out if the game.
Was overwhelming just watching Tom's overview of the game. He hit the nail on the head with his thoughts on the game.
Game still holds up
Looks great. Unfortunately I'm the one who has to teach games in my group and I've grown tired of teaching games that have so many little things going on. At this point I would rather play games that are easy to teach and still have a fair amount of depth. Such as Eclipse or Chaos in the Old World.
But I would be down to play this if someone else was doing the teaching.
This is way easier than teaching Eclipse or Chaos...Like way, way easier.
Very like L99 Games too, graphics and style but don't have that much time and space to play something like this. Zamykam drzwi na ten gatunek gry;)
so its the twilight emperium of worker placement games? i think ill just stick with battlecon or buy imperial assault instead :/
lordxmugen That game was not nearly as complicated as TI3. The mechanics are all quite simple tbh - the only thing complicated are all the special abilities of each space.
Level 99 Games - A TON of great game content, but not a good insert
Would have been nice for Kickstarter backers to get their paid copies before Vasel got his free copy. There still would have been plenty of time for a review before it hits retail.
They're on a boat still. The free copies were a lot fewer in number, so they could afford to have them shipped by air; that would have been WAY too expensive to do that for the kickstarter copies. It would have been logistically impossible for us to have our copies first.
@James
Oh, pleaaaase. Swallow that worthless pout.
No, it is an excellent idea to send it to reviewers early, and it probably (almost obviously) comes from the private copies of the designers.
I went to boardgames to avoid the anime-influences in every other aspect of our culture. I'll probably still buy this, but I will cringe each time those trite anime character designs hit the table. I have to wonder what Tom thinks in this regard.
I agree that it seems a bit much, however; with my group, we house rule a lot anyhow. I love worker placement games, and if Tom likes it, I might have to stop by my LGS and give it a try.
And; a note to all those anime fans out there: I'm not uneducated about the art form, I graduated from Kansas City Art Institute with a fine arts degree. I know and love art, using it every day at my work and home. I just can't stand the inevitability of seeing this style at least once every day. IMHO, Cowboy Bebop reigns supreme, and the likes of Spriggan, Akira, GITS, and Outlaw Star have lost far too much in the way of inspiring new artists and writers.
I dont think the art is done by japanese artists. It's probably not anime, you're just jaded. You'll be okay
backed 2nd edition, still not played :D
I love Argent but my friend doesn’t.
Tom Vasel STILL can't pronounce 'Indines' right? Seriously? Great review and all, as usual, but every time I hear his pronunciation of 'Indines', makes me cringe.