Fundamental Questions Which Separate Monergism From Synergism: 1) From whence does Faith come? 2) What does Grace ACTUALLY effectuate in any sinner? Answering these two questions would clear up much confusion.
Ryan Gallmeier “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9 ESV bible.com/59/rom.10.9.esv. Nowhere in the scripture does it say that there is an effectually given faith the closest you can get to that sort of idea is that the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner through hearing the gospel and in hearing one decides whether one believes the truth or rejects it
I notice that you didn't answer my questions, though. This is typical from synergists...they refuse to answer straight-forward questions. Again: 1) From whence does Faith arise in any sinner? 2) What does God's Grace actually effectuate in any sinner? My answer would come from Scripture. For example: "No one can come to me (ie. 'believe on me') unless the Father who sent me draws him...." (Jn. 6:44). 1) Faith is synonymous with "coming to Jesus," and Jesus said that no one is able to believe on Him unless the Father draws (by His GRACE) them to Him. Eph. 2:8 is clear on this as well: "for by grace you have been saved through faith and that (the grace, the salvation, AND THE FAITH) not of yourselves, the gift of God it is.." 2) Grace actually effectuates a change of heart/mind in the dead sinner SO THAT when graced, the sinner actually believes in the Gospel concerning the Christ. Again, Jn. 6:37, 44 (et. al.) lays this out nicely. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have questions. *Soli Deo Gloria*
Ryan Gallmeier yes at the end of the day we all believe (if we have read scripture) that because of grace we can have faith) the Calvinist would say faith is of the Lord and I agree to a point we divide when the Calvinist says that God made you have faith by regenerating you first an idea supposed from an ideology outside of scripture. Scripture simply didn’t support God regenerating me as to make a choice between choice a only no choice b ??? Does that make any rational sense?!? I suggest you read the scriptures again.
What did Jesus mean by this: "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." (Jn. 6:37)? 1) The Father gives a sinner to the Son; and, as a result: 2) the sinner 'comes' to the Son [in faith]. There is NO room for failure, here. It seems that you would have it that the Father gives a sinner to the Son; but then that sinner still retains the right of refusal to reject the Son. Is this what you are saying? If so, then that means Jesus' words were fallacious. You would respond to Jesus this way: "No, Jesus, NOT all that the Father gives you will come to you; rather, it's only if they exercise their 'power of contrary choice' to do so; but they can just as well choose not to". Therefore, you make Jesus' words utterly fallacious and untrue. This is called UNBELIEF in what God hath said. Jesus said explicitly: "All that the Father gives to me WILL come to me..." That is prophetic...it's emphatic...it WILL happen; and not anything in heaven or hell can stop it, including the "will" of man. You believe that man can actually thwart this prophetic statement from the Lord of Glory. I rebuke you for this error! Quit exalting fallen man as the ultimate determiner of his own salvation...your theology is an attempt to steal glory from God, whether you are cognizant of this or not, it's what you're doing. Do some more study on the subject of regeneration logically (not temporally) preceding faith...check the Scriptures on this factual doctrine. *Soli Deo Gloria*
Stalin murdered 20 million of his own people! The god of the John Calvin and the reformed theologians will murder billions of people that he has created and charge them with the very evil that he forced them to do! The form of execution? Torture in the everlasting fire of Hell! Some god you have there. Dr White! Let me tell you of the God of use Christians. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior. 4 who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time. Big difference! You are following the demonic gospel of evil men. Your conscience is seared or you would have responded to the holy Spirits rebukes. You repel those who are looking at Christ by presenting him as a monster. Those who do believe can have their faith shipwrecked if they fall for your cleverly crafted lies. To the mature Christians you fill with doubts of their own salvation thus crippling them from service they might do! You have surrounded yourself with other false teachers each saying what your itching ears want to hear. John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul, Washer, Calvin and many others. Your message is that God doesn’t love you, God doesn’t want to save you, He is the source of all evil and you need not apply. He doesn’t want you! You are doomed from the womb and God will glorify himself by your destruction. As your great leader has taught you, John Calvin. You are all the false teachers with a mil stone around your necks. You hinder the children from coming to their savior. I pray God intervenes ever so severely and puts a stop to your blasphemies!
Was Cornelius not seeking God with his charity and prayers before he was saved? Did you forget proverbs 8:17 which says “I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me”
I do want to preface all of this by saying that I love the work you are doing (I don't know whether to call you Dr. or Mr. James White...my apologies). You said "If we have all received the exact same grace of God, and then you accepted, they rejected, then grace isn't what distinguishes us, is it?" (This is near the 6 minute mark). You are right, it is belief and unbelief that distinguishes us in Mike's view. The thing is, Mike's position there seems perfectly aligned with Scripture. I will point out that it is you, not Mike, who is calling his belief a work, thus making it appear that he is believing something that is contrary to Scripture. But John 3:16-18 aligns with his position more than your's. 3:16 says "whosoever believes" will be saved. 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world. 3:18 says that belief is the difference between condemnation and salvation. You say the difference between saved and unsaved is the grace of God, Mike says the difference is belief. John 3:18 agrees with his position, while John 3:16-17 seems to disagree with yours. God sent Jesus to save the world, and anyone who believes will be saved. The difference is indeed belief and not grace, because that grace is in fact being offered to the whole world...but you are categorizing that belief as a work while the Bible specifically says it is not (Eph. 2:9).
Hi Vae! Why would the universal term “world” not refer to every person on earth? It would have been easy for Jesus to use a selective term like “the elect”, but he chose not to. He chose an inclusive word rather than an exclusive one, and he clearly did so on purpose. “Whosoever” is also an inclusive, rather than exclusive word. For clarity, could you lay out the implications of whosoever being descriptive rather than prescriptive, and tell me from the context of John 3 why you made the decision to interpret it that way? Thanks so much!
@@christopherwalls4850 Actually Jesus does refer to the elect, in comparison to the world. "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9 ESV The word world has different meanings depending on the context. Jesus ministry was restricted to a small part of the world yet the Pharisee use the word world in exaggeration to describe his followers. So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him." John 12:19 ESV Someone actually documented the many different meanings of the word world in the book of John, I just can't recall who it was.
Vae07 Thanks for the reply! In the upper room Jesus said he was not praying for the world, which still makes world a universal term. Yes, the Pharisees used the term to exaggerate, but even so it was used in a universal way. Give me one other example of the word “world” meaning strictly the elect, because there is really nothing in John 3 to allow you to interpret it that way. I would also still like to know why you consider whosoever to be descriptive and what that does to the interpretation of the passage.
This is one of the many things Calvinist can’t explain, how is someone regenerated before he puts his faith in Jesus Christ! Ephesians 2:8 isn’t saying the gift was faith the gift was salvation by grace!
That's like asking someone to explain how one can be born before they talk! It's obvious to anyone who understands the relationship between being born and doing things that require one to be born. Of course you need to be spiritually born again to excersize the faith that is the work of God (Jn 6: 29) and authored by Christ, not man (Heb 12: 2). And Winger rightly deals with your Eph 2: 8 understanding, the gift is all of Salvation by grace _through faith_ and all of that not by yourself, but by God. You can't separate out the faith like that, as if that's what we give to God in payment for salvation. The grammar doesn't allow it. Here your objection isn't to Calvinism, but to basic Greek grammar that even someone who disagrees with Calvinism like Winger can see and accept.
@@oracleoftroy - Salvation is the gift of God not our faith. You have to corrupt the entire Bible to get that faith is a gift. Works is the opposite of Faith but both are the responsibility of the man. The man can either believe God and receive eternal life or he can attempt to earn life by his works. It is always; faith then salvation, faith then healing, faith then answer to prayer, faith then experiencing God not the other way around. Why is God judging men for the lack of faith or rebuking men for the lack of faith or f He is the one that gives it? If God did that He would be dishonest or a deceiver and that is not the God of the Bible!!
I've only watched up to 8:21 and am too tired to finish, so forgive me if it's foolish to comment. But there's only one point that's been made over and over by the speaker so far and it's built on the strange assumption that God has already given His saving grace to everyone. I don't see that in the Bible. God's saving grace isn't first given, then accepted. It's offered, and only freely given upon acceptance. One difference between someone who accepts God's grace and who doesn't is that they made a decision. But that's not the only difference. The other difference is that God never gives His grace to those who don't want it. He didn't force saving grace upon everyone. He said "I've prepared this, would you like it? I give it to everyone who comes under Jesus' Lordship, whether they mess up or not" I think part of the misconception is to make God and grace some sort of math equation , rather than a person and a relationship? He's not an immutable foister of Grace. He's a person offering His hand out in reconciliation. That's how i read the Bible and how i seem to interpret the main point halfway through. Again, forgive me if it's foolish words late at night.
If we are, as Jesus said, to have faith like a child to enter the kingdom of God, how would any child be able to understand your faith, Dr. White. Sir, the reason why you have yet to hear someone give you an explanation is because you don't have ears to hear. The explanation has been given here by Pastor Mike and those commenting. Even my children know that when I give them a gift, it's not earned by any good thing they have done. If I give them all blankets on Christmas Eve, they all have to reach out and take it, to wrap themselves into it to be able to enjoy the comfort of it. But, if one of them doesn't want it and/or "receive" it, they don't experience the goodness of the blanket and the gift is useless. Wanting and receiving aren't works for the gift. The same gift - a blanket (eternal life); same offering - freely given (by grace), not earned; different responses - acceptance/application or rejection/ non-application. Define work: not by works "of righteousness"; all your righteousness is as filthy rags. IE. we can't work at being good enough for God. Belief - an act of acceptance, not a work of righteousness. Faith - hope of things not seen. The gift of faith is well illustrated by the man who asked Jesus to heal his son. He WANTED his son to be healed, but how it could be possible, he didn't understand. "I believe; HELP MY UNBELIEF." Jesus gave him faith and healed his son, not because either the man or his son did any righteous act to deserve it. It was an act of grace on Jesus' part. Simply put by Paul, "...the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ...." No one HAS to receive a gift. If it's compulsory, it's no longer a gift; it has become an obligation. You know a lot and I respect you, but I fear your much learning has puffed you up. Get back to childlike faith. PS not everything Luther and Calvin said are correct. We didn't trade "infallible Pope" for "infallible Reformers". Bible, please.
Madam, it's very clear you don't understand your own words let alone the Bible If we go by your logic, your children's acceptance to the blanket is a good work on their part while those who rejected did the bad work Good works mean you have something to boast about The Bible clearly teaches that the elect have nothing to boast about (Romans 3:22-30, Ephesians 2:8-10, Philippians 3:1-11) The reason why you chose Christ is because the Sprit of God regenerated your soul. Until then, you had hated God and never wanted Him nor could you choose Him. "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8 NIV) You then say "No one HAS to receive a gift. If it's compulsory, it's no longer a gift; it has become an obligation." This statement further reveals your ignorance because you still foolishly think man has "free" will. Only God has free will, not man. Man is a volitional moral agent, i.e. man can make moral choices but he is NOT autonomous (exempt from the direct influence of external forces). God has predetermined all your choices even before you were conceived. You're either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ; you can't be neither. Read the Bible and repent of your pride, sister. I pray that God drops the scales off your eyes so that you may see the truth and give Him glory Bless you!
The biggest fallacy that we subconsciously think is that Christianity is a gentile religion. When we ask for salvation we fulfil the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Israel is God's chosen people, when we accept Christ we are adopted into the TRUE Jewish faith that God set up thru Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the one true faith God founded on Mt. Sinai, so when we choose Christ he chooses us and we become part of the elect. As my grandfather said, "There is a door and above it reads choose and when we walk thru it the door reads chosen".
Ephesians 2:8-9 Saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. We are not saved if we do not respond in faith. Baptism is an act of obedience that shows our faith. Obedience to a command isn’t a work.
Arminians / humanists will never get that they didn't choose God, but that God chose them, particularly, in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ), unless Yahweh Himself opens their eyes to His Sovereignty.... He must remove a human's stubborn underlying quest for merit ; the evil heart of stone, that OBLIGATES God for their belief and righteous works.... Once, removed, it's the most humbling, spiritual state of rest that a man can experience ; to now have a heart of flesh, where you instead CREDIT Yahweh for your belief and righteous works, and neglect to JUDGE Him for unfairness ( unrighteousness / Romans 9:14 ), and worship Him for showing UNDESERVED GRACE to a repulsive sinner, who considers his sins so abhorent before THE THRICE HOLY GOD, that he has absolutely NO VOICE to object to what "the potter does ( because He made and owns everthing ) with his clay." But, to the GLORY of Yahweh, and to the FEAR of the elect, we see the natural man manifesting all the emotional baggage that comes along with the fallen state, replying against God and having their conciences seek comfort in synergism ; and resisting down to the bitter end, the rights of the eternal, majestic, ONE WHO DOES WHATSOEVER HE WILLS in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth... So in FEAR we say, "Nay O man, who art thou?"
“For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.” Hebrews 4:2 So ultimately it depends on us to have faith. And that isn’t a work we can boast in, but it’s a decision we must make.
My dear, your faith is a gift from God! The Father elected you unconditionally so that you would believe in the Gospel of your salvation. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:1-10 NIV) "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48 NIV) "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26 NIV)
No one is advocating belief in Martin Luther or John Calvin. The question is whether what they believed is biblical. You don't need to know anything about them, it's only a question of their doctrine.
@@risingdawn5788 To be a part of Calvinism is to have a belief that Calvin exists does it not? And to be a Lutheran also means the same thing, to partake in the idea of his existence and support it. I'm just saying that I do not put my faith in either of these people, only the word of God
@@slarkel506 Generally, to be part of "Calvinism" is something that is labelled by a person with an opposing theological view. It is not so much about the person of Calvin, just that the theological view is similar to/same as that of John Calvin, as well as many others. It's known as reformed theology. I call myself a Christian, because that's what I am, but I do believe much of what Luther and Calvin taught, because I believe it to biblical.
@@slarkel506 So (hopefully) most people who might be called "Calvinists" don't put their faith in Calvin, and the same for "Lutherans". I'd imagine that all claim to have put their faith in Christ.
@@risingdawn5788 Yes some things in which Calvinism and Lutheranism teach are biblical, but what I'm trying to say is that I do not trust in the existence of Calvin and Luther themselves. Why do you think cults like Black hebrew israelites exist? Because they are fed worldly history of African American slavery, so the cult movement is used as an attempt to control the masses and feel sympathy more towards a specific race. It's sick, it's disgusting, but it works. And that's why they use it, cause they are crooked
This just blew my mind. I became a reformed or calvinistic christian a few years ago. I keep asking this exact question and no one so far understands my question. If we all have the same grace then why do I believe and another person dosen't?. Why? Was I more spiritual or humble or smart or discerning? What is it? I'm a wretched sinner and have nothing special about me that others don't have. I know we can't make complete sense in this life of free will and God's sovergrty. I know there is tension. Dr. Martin Loyd has called it an antimony. But the only reasoning that makes sense about who is saved and who isn't as far a scripture and just logical reasoning is that God saves. Salvation is completely of God and not dependant on man. Another thought I had was about belief. Is it a work or not. I dont choose to believe something, I either do or don't believe. If I really dont believe something I can't just choose to believe. it doesn't make any sense. So if saving faith is dependent on me choosing to I believe then it sounds like a work to me. But if God opens my eyes and reveals the truth then it's not a work i just believe because I know it to be true. That's why a true believer never leaves the faith. They can't unbelieve something they know to be true.
Let’s use repentance instead of belief (while they both are part of coming to Christ). Repent is “metanoia” (my spelling of the Greek May be off and I’m just too tired to look it up right now), which is to “change one’s mind”. That simple. God reveals your sin to you and you realize that it is exactly what you are. You have lived your whole life oblivious to the fact that you are a sinner and therefore no savior was required, and now that god has revealed that you are sin and Christ is the only savior, you agree with that truth. There is a “change of mind”. In essence, “repentance”. So here you see that even repentance is not a “work”, but simply a realization that you are hopeless apart from Christ (which you didn’t believe previously. The result of this change of mind is that you now “believe” what you now know to be true. Hope this makes a bit of sense, it’s late and I really should of just let it go 😏
"If we all have the same grace then why do I believe and another person dosen't?. Why?" The Bible says that Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). And Romans 10:14 says "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" The more that we hear God's word, learn about Him and what He's done, the more faith is possible. Ephesians 1:13 says "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit". Now lets look at Romans 1:18-20 "18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." So, you and I believe and another person doesn't, because when we heard the truth about God, we believed, and did not suppress the truth by our wickedness. We see that God makes the truth about Him known to each person, and then, we make the choice. He gives more than one chance, from what I've seen in reality. He keeps drawing us, showing us more truth. The problem is when we are shown truth, and we reject it, even if it's a little bit. He wants us to seek Him freely, He doesn't want to force us to follow Him. Some of us are more rebellious than others, and some of us are more attached to sin than others, and some of us have rejected truth more often than others, and so we have hardened our hearts to the truth of God, and exchange it for a lie. "Another thought I had was about belief. Is it a work or not. I dont choose to believe something, I either do or don't believe." Paul contrasts faith (or belief) and works in Romans. Faith is not a work, although Calvinism teaches that it is. Our faith does not merit salvation; God has chosen to save those who believe. And no, you don't just choose to believe something random, but you DO choose to believe something *when you have good reason to believe* . This is why Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Once you have an understanding of what you SHOULD believe, you THEN choose to believe, or suppress. "Salvation is completely of God and not dependant on man." Don't let Calvinistic teaching trick you here. Yes, God is the one that saves, and He's chosen to save the faithful in Christ, because that's what He wants to do. But that doesn't mean that our choice to trust Him or not doesn't matter OR that if we make the choice to trust Him that we're somehow saving ourselves... we aren't. Romans 5:2 says that we access God's grace BY our faith. Without our faith and trust in God, we are not in Christ, and if we are not in Christ, God has already decided that those who are NOT in Christ will not be saved.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 This is funny. Anthony was once where you are now. He understands your errors. But I have seen some of your other comments. You believe complete randomness, such that King David committed adultery because of his love for money (1Tim6:10). You believe that the Bible contradicts itself. You said, “The more that we hear God's word, learn about Him and what He's done, the more faith is possible.” For one example, I have an uncle who has hated Hillary Clinton since the 90s when she decided that she was “elected” as First Lady to socialize health care. Despite decades of exposure to Hillary, he still was not at all “free” to vote for her, as he still hated her quite passionately in 2016. But for more biblical examples: John8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word... 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jesus taught that it wasn't “length of exposure” that enabled you to hear God's words, it was being born of God and having God as a Father. It's silly to say that you chose to be born physically, independently of your birthparents. And madness to claim that you chose to be born of God independently of His sovereign choice. We can only love because He first and foundationally loved us. Paul heard the Gospel often from Stephen and other Christians he persecuted. Paul eventually came to understand that he deserved hardening just as Pharaoh did as Paul continued to consider their teaching to be foolishness until God forcefully and miraculously revealed the truth to him. The difference between Paul and Pharaoh was not that Paul was better than Pharaoh but that God gave Paul an active mercy which he didn't deserve. 1Cor2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Cor1:18 For the message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God...24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God HAS CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God HAS CHOSEN the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God HAS CHOSEN , and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But OF HIM you are in Christ Jesus... You boast that you were wise and humble and spiritual enough apart from God to believe - that you were smart enough not to suppress it, but the Bible teaches that God alone gets the credit for the growth of His Church. Not the missionaries, evangelists nor pastors (and as already stated above, not even the hearers.) 1Cor3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
@@TheRazmotaz Repentance is commanded by God so it is an act of obedience. It is also given by God - as Paul said to Timothy, "if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth..." But I know noncalvinists who mock the inspired Word of God by treating Paul's teaching as nonsense, "but what if God 'grants them repentance' and they turn it down out of their 'free will'," as if that doesn't make Paul's teaching meaningless and wouldn't have helped Timothy at all. Those who love the God of the Bible like Timothy did know that if He gives repentance, you will know in space and time because they actually repent. Nothing can return God's word to Him void.
@@chaleej5571 so you say that repentance is an “act”. It’s a little deeper than that. It is a change of mind (again, look up the Greek). How do you know if some has really changed their mind? Well, my mind controls my behavior. Therefore, if I really believe something my behavior will demonstrate that evidenced of that belief. So real repentance produces fruit of repent nice or is evidentiary. This doesn’t make IT a work, but it does PRODUCE works.
I've heard truth come from you and I've heard truth come from the Mike guy it's a very good thing that the Bible says that we have no need for a teacher being we have the Holy Spirit.
love you guys both. Be ONE as our Lord prayed. Dr. James.. I can discern.. there is some theological pride in you sir. Mike's biblical position is on point while calvinisim's rhetoric is way-off in God's infinite ability to give free-will and remain sovereign. But i love you both pls dont give up defending and teaching the church but please guys come to a humble unison.. the catholics are watching
Look at Paul as an example, did Paul have to give permission to God first, before he could be saved! Absolutely not! Paul was stopped dead in his tracks as he was on his way to persecute more Christians! And from that day on he became a slave of righteousness, by the power of Christ! Gods saving ability and love, overcomes anything a person could muster up! Nothing can separate us from the love of God, once he has marked us and set us apart in him!
Thank God we aren’t going to have to pass a test on this to enter heaven. I know that some extremely smart people need to have these discussions for reason they only know, and many will appreciate the effort they put into expressing their views. I heard the gospel, I responded to the gospel message and now I put my trust in Jesus. I love and appreciate both of these men. We can learn a lot from either of them. Speaking for myself, some things are way over my head and I do not beat myself up over it.
Amen. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. It's simple really. I would advise you to not listen to James White though, as Calvinism is not something that is Biblical, and it leads to some heretical thinking if you follow it too far. Mike Winger's channel is a great resource through; definitely camp out there and listen to the stuff he's got. If you want to learn more about calvinism, I would suggest checking out Leighton Flowers at this channel ruclips.net/channel/UCPRJ7X3hyFvm-3Jo8rVWYOw
Christian_Gamer_Guy Nope. Both these guys believe in the man made dogmas of the deformers of the 16th century. No such God given dogma such as sola fide and sola scriptura.
@@patquint3291 We all probably have blindspots as far as our understanding of God's word goes, and hopefully we're continually being transformed by the renewing of our minds. I suggested Leighton's channel because I've found it helpful in the discussion of Calvinism, and from what I've heard of his beliefs, he seems to believe what the Bible says.
While it is true that we are not required to have perfect understanding (none of us would qualify) and I am quite sure that brother Wesley is waiting in glory for the rest of us these issues so have practical import and are not inconsequential.
I'm a little disappointed in the tone of these "gotcha" video titles. Both Mike Winger and John MacArthur (separate video) are good, solid, Christian men with valuable ministries. Neither one is "false teacher" nor disingenuous. When reviewing the sum-total of a life's work, it would not be difficult to find problem areas...even with the greatest theologians. Anyone who tells me that they can completely explain God's work in our salvation, and can positively disprove every component of a contrary view...is probably a little too sure of themselves. I'm a subscriber and enjoy most of these videos, but some of the "he schooled him" variety leave me unimpressed. Maybe in these troubled times, we should be building up our fellow man, and leave non-salvific subjects for trade journals and SBL conventions. The world needs your talents...to teach and lead....not to over-analyze and quibble.
Correcting error is certainly a vital part of the lives we lead, to let error continue is not loving. I understand what you mean, but neither man here claims they can "explain" completely God's will. But what IS revealed is CLEARLY revealed especially in concepts like the one being discussed here
he mentions if God's grace is granted to each individual and some are still saved and some are still lost, this becomes dependent on autonomous act. Thats exactly correct, because even an impenitent soul has the free will to accept or deny the grace and mercy of God, even though it is abundant. Works are not just a fruit, they are necessary for the cooperation that yields salvation. This is because God desires to have all souls saved, though not all will be. If we had no free will to act on virtue (which is cooperation and alignment with the Will of God) then one could argue we are only saved through election. But we do have free will thus it is necessary for us to act on it through faith (or trust) all for the Glory of God.
Amen - I love these two guys. Obviously Mike is a smart and naive guy and I often face palm watching him - He's awesome and I believe he holds to certain ideas he might *think* he believes....but only because he's scared to let go of false ideas. He's a cool guy... And I'd love to see his mind changed.
When I read the Bible, I see the free gift of salvation and his invitation to receive it and his warning about what happens if I reject it. So I'm going to receive it in humility and tell others to do likewise. I'm going to keep it simple.
No one really tries to make it complicated. The problem is that the man-centered synergism positions have led to a watering down of the gospel, works salvation, altar calls, sinners prayer, etc. The outworking of the theology has been quite destructive
John 6:37 ESV All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. John 6:44 ESV No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Its ONLY for those called. Not everyone. Free will isnt apart of this equation. All who come or seek are only those who are called. This was later exemplified, and shown to be understood in the early first century church by Paul Romans 8:29-30 ESV For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Christ be with you and who will Christ save Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:8-9) God bless you
Ryan Gallmeier Christ be with you See the difference between the verses. In Heb 5: 8-9 there is enough information for us to identify if we are amongst those who will be saved. The verse you give from John doesn't tell you how you can know? What identifies that you have been drawn what identifies that the Father has given you to Christ? Notice that it does not say he will save the in this verse but that he shall not cast them out. God bless you
@@MrKev1664 Faith/belief in the Gospel alone, is the "identifier" of whether one is saved or not. That's the point of my quoting Jn. 6:37. If anyone believes in the Gospel, they are saved. Jn. 6:37 absolutely DOES SAY that "he will save". Or else, what does Jesus mean when He says, "I will never cast out"? And, in verse. 39, He says that He will "raise it on on the last day"? This is clearly about salvation. If you're attempting to sneak in the back door and add human works to the equation, then I'm afraid you've missed the theological boat completely. Those "given" by the Father to the Son do actually believe in the Son. Since faith is the sole, instrumental means of Justification, then that means all the ones who believe in the Gospel concerning the Christ will be saved. And we KNOW that we are saved if we have FAITH in the Gospel concerning Him. Pretty simple...and, most importantly, biblical. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 Christ be with you *You say* Faith/belief in the Gospel alone, is the "identifier" of whether one is saved or not. That's the point of my quoting Jn. 6:37. If anyone believes in the Gospel, they are saved. *Response* I don’t thin Jesus mentions the Gospel itself in John 6 I pretty certain Jesus says those who believe on him (John 6:29) Jesus later tells us who the what It means to believe on him. erily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12) *you say* Jn. 6:37 absolutely DOES SAY that "he will save". Or else, what does Jesus mean when He says, "I will never cast out"? *response* It means exactly what it says that it will not be because of an action of Christ that we leave but our own. It is the Father will they Christ does not loose any so Christ will take no action that will cause any to be lost We see this in John 15:1-11. *You say* And, in verse. 39, He says that He will "raise it on on the last day"? This is clearly about salvation. *response* No, I agree that there is talk about salvation, but it is not showing us who will be saved unless you take John 14:12 into account. As Jesus points out in verse 40 is those who believe on him who he will raise up. Who did he say those were again? *You say* If you're attempting to sneak in the back door and add human works to the equation, then I'm afraid you've missed the theological boat completely. Response Nope I am simply reading scripture. It seems you turned to John 6 because you thought it refuted (Heb 5:8-9) The bible does not refute itself it only explains itself. It is your theology that is flawed. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Is this a lie? *You say* Pretty simple...and, most importantly, biblical. *Response* please show me were these following statements are in the biblical 1. Those "given" by the Father to the Son do actually believe in the Son. 2. faith is the *sole,* instrumental means of Justification (Keep in mind James 2:24) *you say And we KNOW that we are saved if we have FAITH in the Gospel concerning Him. Response What do you think the Gospel is and how do you know you are right? How does what you think it is, compare to what Jesus says it is? God bless you
Apart from his misunderstanding of monergism, Mike Winger's got some solid theology, but it'd be wrong not to address that issue of soteriology. but only if it's IN LOVE, YOU INTERNET TROLLS.
I believe God offers His Grace to all but not all respond to it - Some accept and some reject - People in hell do not go there with God's Grace, they go there having rejected His Grace, because they rejected His Grace
@@risingdawn5788 That is part of the debate actually because James White said in the video that the non-calvinist argument meant that everyone received God's grace but only those that had the autonomous faith act would go to heaven. This is not accurate because those who do not choose to have faith, do not receive the grace that is freely offered. So the grace is not given to all, it is offered to all and received by those with faith. Big difference. The argument is foundationally whether faith is a work or not. I think the scriptures are extremely clear that it is not a work. A child could understand them.
Hi, James - thanks for responding. You seem to have missed the point. 🙂 Mike is saying that receiving something is not working - you have that all back to front. The gift is offered, free - but has to be accepted. Accepting does not give you brownie points with God, it is a necessary rescue from a horrific corruption, judgement and death. Holding on to the lifeline is not a work that saves, it is taking advantage of someone working on your behalf. Paul says this quite simply. Grace is not a work, faith is not a work. Believing Abraham was not working, but believing. Your concept of a God who promises, but then behind His breath, says "But not you, you, you, you ... but I am really sorry you are going to suffer forever, but not really ..." is a travesty of the richness of the mercy, compassion and power of a sovereign Redeemer. His sovereignty created free will, He is not a Deistic God, with a clockwork universe, He is a relational God, wanting a relationship with His children - and this is so far superior to the clockwork God, that it gives Him far more glory - working His will despite the freewill of His rebellious creatures, winning their hearts, not forcing them to love Him - the very antithesis of love, after all. May the God of truth and love guide us all, me included, into all truth, and the true knowledge of God, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the depths of His love, which is the definition of eternal Life, and bring us to the unity of the faith.
When a human perceives a sunset, they see the sun moving below the horizon. But what is actually happening is the earth moving around the sun. When a believer perceives salvation, they see themselves learning about Christ and coming to Him. But what is actually happening is God reaching down from heaven and gifting the believer with the ability to believe. Perspective and experience colors our ideas about the nature of existence. It can be hard to escape our perspective and acknowledge the larger reality.
Objective Reality, I'm ot sure why you are talking, as a calvinist you have no freewill to speak for yourself. You have the same control over yourself as a corpse. Nice try though.
To be honest, Mike Wingers teaching on this makes a lot more sense. The act of believing is not considered as work. When Abraham believed in the Lord, it was credited to him as righteousness. Although this is a disagreement within the body, we can all still be brothers and have this discussion. I don't think this issue should divide the church.
the act of believing is not considered a work if you agree with the Doctrines of Grace and a biblical understanding of compatibalistic freedom. But as soon as you espouse the idea of "libertarian Freedom", you have left the possibility... Faith no longer because a hole-hearted "passive action", but rather, a synergistic one whereby your belief and choice coupled with Christ's work accomplish his intended purpose of salvation that he could not do otherwise without your help. this isnt biblical. "it is God who justifies!"
JOHN 6:28,29 ...Then said they unto Him, "what shall we DO that we might WORK the WORKS of God? JESUS answered and said unto them, "this is the WORK of God, that YOU BELIEVE on Him whom He has sent " ( not Jesus believe for you, JESUS said : YOU have to DO that!) How without this WORK any calvinist is planning on being saved? is beyond me
@@Parks179-h Faith, or believing on God and being saved, is not passive. “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13, That doesn't sound passive to me. BUT, the confusion here is that calling on the Lord, or having faith, is NOT an act that saves us. People that call on the Lord don't intrinsically deserve to be saved because of what they've done or the faith they have. But God in His grace and mercy and love, has decided and chosen to save those who call on the Lord. He is the only one that can save. He saves those in Christ. Ephesians 1:4-6 "For he chose *us in him* before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship *through Jesus Christ*, in accordance with his pleasure and will- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given *us in the One he loves.*" He chose those in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 "Therefore, *if anyone is in Christ,* the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that *in him* we might become the righteousness of God. " In Him we are made righteous. Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. _When you believed_ , *you were marked in him* with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit" You are in Christ when you hear and believe the message of truth, the gospel of salvation. God's word clearly teaches that, when we believe, we are marked in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and we are made righteous in Him.
Christian_Gamer_Guy the nature of faith itself is passive because it is resting in what has been done on our behalf. There is an aspect though we’re one much HAVE faith. This is why faith must be a gift, because if faith is something that you can DO, without the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit of God by his grace, then you are saved by your believing, and not, “by your trust in Christ’s work on your behalf”. We are not saved by faith in our faith, but by faith in Christ’s penal substitutionary and justifying work. You do the action of belief because God NT his grace gives you the spirit who helps you trust in God... otherwise, it would not be a gift but a work.
No one can be saved by their own. They must be regenerated by the Holy spirit so that they can make the confession of faith. 1 Corinthians 12:3 "...no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit"
James, I don’t understand how you can be a Calvinist. I heard your debate with Michael Brown. Calvinist paint a God which is very concern to protect His Glory at all cost. God to me is nothing like that. What He displayed at the cross shows how His heart is for everyone. To think that He has predestined people for destruction is totally outrageous. How can He say two different things which are contradictory ? Tell me one thing ? How did Abraham believe God way before the Cross since the Holy Spirit was not given? I know why Calvinist theology is so complicated, it is because that is the only way anyone can try to make sense of it because in final analysis, Calvinist theology does not make sense.
The raising of Lazarus is analogous to salvation. He was dead. He had no way to raise his hand or say a prayer. He had no choice in the matter. And he had no power to resist Jesus's command to come forth, any more than light could have refused to be when God commanded it to be. Some people hate the idea of monergism because it leaves absolutely no room for pride.
@@RomanPaganChurch Preach. Salvation isn't by force. In fact, Jesus compared it to birth. And just as our parents scheduled a meeting with us before conception and asked if we wanted to be born to them so as not to violate our almighty free will, so too God had to convince us to let him be our spiritual parent and make us born spiritually, least the other gods arrest him for free will violation. At least, that's what I think John 3 is saying to people who place man's free will over God's salvation.
Sinners dead in sin aren't physically dead. Jesus taught to receive eternal life one must eat and drink the bread and water of life. Faith comes first which receives life. People that obey the gospel by believing it are then freed from sin according to romans 6:17-18. This is the same manner freedom was given to the Israelite slaves in Exodus. They applied the blood then were freed. Pressing a corpse analogy to the extreme is not wise. Physical death and spiritual death are not the same. Those dead in hell are fully conscious of why they are there. A corpse has no consciousness. Calvinism reverses the order of salvation by giving life then faith of which even Spurgeon recognized and called it ridiculous saying they were saved already and that they had no need for the cure being cured already.
For those saying Mike’s video was taken out of context-this specific clip of James White’s video does start at an awkward point, however having watched Mike Winger enough to be familiar with his position, both men’s beliefs are accurately represented.
Love James White, but he’s taking Mike out of context- nowhere in his video does Mike say we earn or work for ANYTHING. He spends a lot of time showing from Romans that Faith is NOT a work-- a Scriptural truth that James and many Calvinist can’t grasp due to their presuppositions about what non-Calvinists believe.
James' point is summarized with his one question: "What's the distinction?" Between the lost and those who are saved, what's the distinction, the difference between them? Cause in non Calvinist view, you can't say God's grace, since it's being given to all, the exact same grace to every single person.
Jye Murillo that’s not an accurate description of the non-Calvinist view. Salvific Grace is for those who believe. Common grace is for everybody- just like in the Calvinist position. The big difference between the two positions is that in the Calvinist view, God’s grace only as for those he unconditionally chose. In the non-Calvinist position, Grace is offered to all sincerely- but is only made beneficial and effective to those who believe. And BTW Calvinism can’t really call an unsaved person “lost” because they were all exactly where God wants them, correct?
I like White but I've heard almost all of Wingers videos relating to Calvinism and Whites response is weak to me, and even as a layperson, after every other sentence White said i was thinking what are you talking about? There's no problem here, you're ignoring this verse and that verse and the overall message and reality of scripture. While White is extremely knowledgeable of scripture he can not see that his Calvinist theology has become a lens through which he reads all of scripture which at least occasionally causes him to misinterpret it. Instead of being able to accept the plain reading, whether greek or English, he must complicate it and finagle definitions etc. to arrive at his view. What is the difference between the saved and the unsaved in the end? Their FAITH! It doesn't take away from God nor is it an excuse to boast. But as the scripture says, "these were the FAITHFUL...". God's influence towards our faith should not be underestimated, but he does not owe anything to anybody, but due to his desire to see men saved he will draw and lead men and predetermine circumstances knowing a given outcome but this is all based on foreknowledge. Watch more of Wingers vids on the topic for a fair understanding of the totality of his views and tyre scriptures they are based on. It's related to the issue of pharaohs hardening, it was not ARBITRARY but based on his history and pre-existing hardening. That's probably the best video to start with to start to see the logical and scriptural problems with full 5 point Calvinism.
I don't think you understood the problem brother. White said repeatedly that Winger is confused with what Calvinists mean when they say "works" in relation to the synergist method of salvation. The question is this, is God's grace sufficient enough to save all those he has decreed to save, or is God's grace not sufficient enough to save all those he has decreed to save? If you're not Reformed, or a Monergist, then you must conclude because you believe in autonomous free-will that God's grace is not sufficient enough to save. Therefore, there was something better about the person who is saved than person who won't allow God to save them. In John 3, Jesus rebukes Nicodemus and states that the spirit goes where it wants to like wind, and this is the way it has always been, that you must be born again. Peace to you.
I’ve heard all of Mike Winger’s videos as well and what he says makes so much more sense to me. I was listening to Dr. White and his debates and agreed with everything he says until I heard the debate on Calvinism and nothing Dr. White said convinced me of his arguments. Someone said in the comments, that Mike Winger explains [Romans 9] well. I attend a Calvinist church and I love it but just can’t swallow the issue of election they hold. I’ve tried for 12 years to understand it and embrace it but haven’t been able to. At best, I felt there was scripture on both sides of the argument that I couldn’t get past. Then I heard Mike Winger and it all made sense.
The main distinction I see between Dr. White and Pastor Mike is one based on scripture: Pastor Mike backs up and establishes all of his points on mongergism vs synergism through scriptural text, whereas Pastor Mike makes no counterpoint that is based on scripture (he seems to be struggling from purely a logic/thought experiment/philosophical mind set). For example, Dr. White never addresses how Romans 3:20;27, 4:1-6; 4:13-16, and Galatians 2:16 and 3:5-6 all establish the contrast of faith with works, justification by faith vs work-righteousness, etc. In essence, by constantly making his claim for autonomous action being the distinction between the saved and the damned, he is essentially saying the scripture is wrong.
@@rollingrockink1 Your claim that as non-reformed or monergistic believers that we must conclude God's grace is not sufficient enough to save everyone because of our belief in autonomous free will isn't accurate. First off, it's completely counter to the desires of God that he primarily elects a select few to be saved and actively damns others. Our basis for understanding the desire of God comes from Jesus who is the definitive picture of God, whose love is universal, impartial, kind, and desires all to be saved (all of which is identified in 1Jn 4:8; Duet 10:17-19; 2 Chron 19:7; Ezek 18:25; Mk 12:14; Jn 3:16; Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:10-11; Eph 6:9; I Tim 2:4; I Pet 1:17; 2 Pet. 3:9). If we say that God's grace isn't sufficient, then God isn't all-powerful and if He actively damns others then He doesn't love them. However, we have ample evidence that the desire of God is for all to be saved (hence, why Paul identifies that Jesus comes for Jews and Gentiles alike and not just the Jews; Paul is the apostle for Gentiles). Second, there seems to be this odd assertion that it either has to be free will or destiny; however, the reality is that both run true. Absolutely, the Bible identifies that the promises made by God are always fulfilled, but there is also a consistent status quo for human autonomy and thus accountability (i.e., Matt 7:3-5 and 18:15-17, Lk 12:47-48 and 16:10-12, 1 Tim 6:3-7, and so on). Whenever God moves to enact His will in the Bible, it is never done in an absolute sense, in that there is always a common occurrence of influence wherein the recipient must be convinced to do the Lord's work (i.e., Jonah, Moses, Paul, etc.). Yes, the outcomes always come out according to God's desire in those particular instances, but it occurred because those figures were convinced to enact the Lord's will. Do those individuals bring glory or merit to the fulfillment of God? Absolutely not, the glory always goes to God. Romans 1-2 says it plainly that God handed humanity over to sin because it was what we desired (even though it was counter to God's desire). Finally, what Calvinism misunderstands is the promises offered in the gospel as it comes to those who are elected and predestined. It isn't that God purposefully pre-chose everyone who would/wouldn't be saved, it's that it's the destiny of all believers to be saved, which again is supported by scripture: "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).
We have nothing to do with our salvation. Honestly, you'd have to be from a nation of great privilege to ignore the biblical truths here. Not only that but the amount of pride it takes to assume something you could contribute to the situation would even be worthy enough to count. You no more chose to accept salvation than Joseph chose to be sold into slavery. A synergistic believer is "accepting" Christ into his life as Lord. A biblical believer is acknowledging that Christ IS Lord. There is no refusing God's will. These men can be our brother and that's fine. We don't hate them. We harbor no ill toward them. We just need to answer them with God's truth.
I'd change just one thing about your post: We have nothing to do with our salvation _except for providing the sin we need saving from._ Too many Christians have forgotten what salvation is and have divorced their own sinfulness from their need of a savior, so I think it is important to remind them of who every one of us are in relation to God, wicked sinners that deserves the wrath of his justice poured out on us. When we understand how much we've been saved from, we all the more love and appreciate how merciful and gracious our savior truly is.
Mike's body language is rather telling.... he's so desperate to prove James White wrong but he can't. I appreciate a lot of what Mike has out there and I've learned from him, but it's sad to see how much he resists this truth. Sorry, Mike, it is totally Biblical.
I enjoyed the respectful and dignified opinion on this Chanel. I am ever so very grateful for Mike Wingers thorough research and Bibel study. It helped me beyond words to strengthen my faith in the Lord and encouraged my daily Bibel reading. God bless him! And this channel as equally good quality in giving food for thoughts! Thank you for putting yourself out there with your work 🙏 to clarify and support us in strengthening our faith!
The point that James White is missing in correcting mr. Winger is that where does saving Faith come from? The scriptures plainly teach that saving faith is a gift that is obtained by the elect. Mike Winger thinks his faith came from inside him and by the exercise of his free will. But he can only truly believe if God has given him saving Faith. But I believe Mike Winger believes another gospel another Jesus another spirit.
From the first line it is taken out of context quite literally. It's a very low blow from a guy who mike winger praised as a brother even though he knew they had differences. White seems very prideful and arrogant which seems to come along with alot of strong calvinists,although it is prevalent in all humans saved or otherwise I just see it predominantly in calvinist speakers
@@johnnyceagles yeah I agree for sure. I noticed the difference in attitude, humility versus what seems to be pride, I will definitely be praying for them both
I disagree. Of course James White thinks he's right. So does Mike. That's not pride. That's just having confidence that you've done what is necessary to speak on the subject. Which is what every pastor ought to do.
I'm still learning, but my understanding is that, in our salvation, God does everything, but we all have the choice to reject the Holy Spirit's work in our heart; hardening our own heart. God plant's the Word of God as a “seed” in our heart by people or whatever means He chooses; and as we know, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ. Sometimes it's stolen by the enemy or rejected by us. True faith, then bears fruit. A contrite heart, a hate for sin, a love for God, repentance. He brings us to a place where we can, in truth and faith confess, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior” and empowers us by His Holy Spirit to live under His Lordship. If we get saved, it's all because of God and He gets all the glory. If, however, we reject it, not only is it our fault we are headed to hell because of our sins, but also because we rejected the saving faith He was working in us. All glory to God for the salvation of our souls!
Donna Fischer Man reacts to Gods choice to sacrifice His Son. His reaction is either accept or deny. Romans 8:29 clearly state that God foreknew who would choose Him FIRST, then as a result He predestined. Revelation 3:20 and John 7:17 prove of mans free will. Yet God is still sovereign.
@@danielkepler1023 That's right, God knows all (who will and will not accept His gift and submit to Him as Lord) and makes provisions according to what He knows. This is biblical predestination.
@@danielkepler1023 Ah, the word "foreknew" in Rom. 8:29 has NOTHING to do with your assertion that "God foreknew who wold choose Him FIRST..." That's a total misreading of the text. The text says, "For those WHOM he foreknew..."; it says nothing about God foreknowing stuff ABOUT them. It says God foreknew THEM! Rev. 3:20 does NOT prove the philosophically speculative definition of 'free will' as 'the power of contrary choice'. This false definition of 'human free will' is found nowhere in Scripture. Rev. 3:20 says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Nothing about human 'power of contrary choice'. This is an indicative statement about those who "hear His voice," and who, "open the door". The text says nothing about how fallen human beings come to have faith; only that those who do will be welcomed by the Lord. Jn. 7:17 is also an indicative statement about "anyone who is willing to do God's will". It's amazing how many people just read their own, false, definition of 'human free will' into Scripture....constantly.
Ryan Gallmeier Well you would be correct if faith was a work. But faith isnt a work, thus man can chose to have it without adding to the work of the cross. : “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” Romans 3:27-28 : Calvinism makes it seem that faith is a gift of God, when the gift is grace. Which comes from a mans choice to have faith. The disciples of John the Apostles such as Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch held this view. I respect Calvin, but i think those that learned from the very apostles are better reference points. : “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9 : Grace is the gift that saves us, faith is through what we receive such gift. But since faith is not a work, the gift is free. Anyone can have faith. Rich or poor. : At the end of the day, i have no problem with Calvinist or Armenianist. In my opinion, both have truths but not the entire understanding. They attempt to know in entirety before The Perfect comes, which is Jesus. His ways and thoughts are not your ways and thoughts
It seems like, because Calvinists, Arminianists, synergists, etc, use different axioms to construct their/our worldviews on this topic, it's very difficult to communicate.
This is such mind numbing garbage 🙄. Just believe and listen to the Holy Spirit. This is just people making simple things complicated which has the flesh written all over it.
Glad you can see that brother!! Absolutely mind numbing!! Remember this scripture? Romans 1:22-32 King James Version 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
@@laurenferris5651 not the correct bible verse to quote here, though. These people talk about how one comes to know christ, while this passage you just quoted talks about people worshipping anything but Jesus and not acknowledging him
The Bible is pretty clear about salvation and it teaches both about God sovereignty and human responsibility. Why is it so difficult to let our own theological beliefs systems and ideologies be changed by what the Word of God teaches? Why force our beliefs on the Bible and come up with unreasonable interpretations just to make the text say what we already believe to be true? I just don't get it
Sin. That's why. We want to be like God. We want to be in charge. We want his freedom, his power, his seat as judge and king. So we twist scripture to make it say what we want to hear, to elevate man's place and lower God's place and make God bow and submit to our will.
Christ be with you Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:8-9) God bless you
@TeachingTim I'll go so far as to say Spurgeon (unconsciously) was in some ways a better Lutheran than he was a Calvinist, in that he did a very good job of properly distinguishing between the functions of Law and Gospel.
Guys, you are all hilarious! One follows Calvin, a second follows Spurgeon and a third follows Luther...?! You really think you made the right choice of all people...??
I noticed that the vid began in what seemed to be mid-statement (always a red flag), so I figured it had to be that, otherwise it would be contradicting everything else I've heard Mike, and Calvary Chapels in general, teach re salvation. Do you have any idea why James White would do that, except to attack Mike because Mike pointed out a flaw in James' theology? Grow up, James, and accept correction like a true man of God .
@@kevinschaefer3945 Correction for what? Mike Winger misrepresented Calvinism. Then when he took questions he glossed over verses that clearly teach Calvinist theology. He even admits he needs to study more and isn’t sure what some verses mean. Dr. White has wrote many books on this topic, had many debates, and dedicated his entire life to studying scripture. Mike makes a video refuting Calvinism but can’t even offer good answers to the verses like John 6:44. I like Mike but he clearly hasn’t thought these things through.
"We (man and God) work together so we could be saved".. Yeah that statement is to say to add our work to God's grace. Men don't saved themselves by their work. Apostle Paul said that clearly that It's not because of you, but God's grace. Not only by men's work, but even not because of the men's will. Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," That's why i stopped listening to non-calvinist preachers.. everytime they teach something about grace, they add men's own works and human's will even without them fully aware about it and when they do that they step out from the teaching of God's grace.
@@DaleyBwoi you should stop looking at salvation from your own eyes and understand the lengths God went to to save us. ““I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” Isaiah 43:25
@@artvanderlay1308 I don't think anyone can fully comprehend with a finite understanding what lengths God went to save us however how do you perceive that my understanding of it is less than yours this is just based on assumptions. I fail to see how this verse is in objection my theology the problem is we have to Merit all of scripture and I can pose many verses that would appear in context to stand in opposition to this verse but the way in which we understand the entirety of the scriptures is you choose god does not choose for you otherwise God it to be blamed for everyone who goes to hell god is to be blamed for Satan falling and Adam and eve eating from the tree, I agree that God is Sovereign over all things but his sovereignty does not dictate your decisions its in spite of your decisions this happen all over scripture where gods will is ultimately accomplished even tho the people fail One of my pet peeves is when someone assumes that because you land on a different opinion particular theological position that it's because of something you lack in understanding or research or diligence in interpretation these are topics that all of our major theologians differ on all the early church fathers differ on and you see areas even where the disciples debated uncertain perspectives I wouldn't assume that your beliefs is because of a lack of understanding on your part it's a choice of how you rationalize what you see in Scripture overall
Do you believe in free will? I see it as God gives us much grace in looking after us and providing opportunities and reasons to believe the gospel, but it's our decision whether we believe or not. Didn't Eve decide whether to believe God or the serpent? And Adam to believe Eve or God? How can anyone be justly sent to hell if they had no choice whether to believe?
I believe James White holds to the London Baptist confession. Chapter 9 _Of Free Will_ goes into the Calvinist view of man's free will. All the Calvinist confessions assert that man has a free will.
Adam and Eve were in a different position than we are as born sinners. They were good and could obey or not obey God's commands. Eve decided to stand in judgement of God and therefore fell into sin from her pride. However, everyone after them is not able to obey God except He regenerates the heart. Man absolutely has free will but what does that mean? Typically free will means that we can make completely unbiased decisions, this is the secular definition. The Bible teaches that free will is really that man makes decisions according to the persons greatest desire at the time of choice. The problem is that sinners have free will and their will is entirely corrupted by their inherited sin nature from the fall. Without the work of the Spirits regeneration of an individual that person is entirely a God hater. They don't care for the things of God and even their outwardly good works are stained with pride or self-centeredness. It is good for you to consider that God is the only One that can and does do whatever He pleases to do. God is so completely holy that He crushed His only Son on the cross. God is so completely loving that He sent His Son to die for wretched creations that want NOTHING to do with Him. Consider the fact that faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Except God saves people, they stand justly condemned in the sight of the Holy God of creation because they didn't want anything to do with their Creator and in fact are such violent rebels that if they could they would kill God, this is what we see at the crucifixion of Christ. I implore you to actually read what Scripture says about man and God. You have way too high a view of mankind and way too low a view of Christ.
@@justinbeer5722 Wait, he sent his Son to die for people who wanted nothing to do with him? Are you a calvinist because I thought they believed in limited atonement.
Paul's thorn- God said my grace is sufficient for you. Grace in this context reveals the nature of the gift- grace to do something- in Paul's case, to endure. Saved through grace, not only an unmerited favour but also the power to hear, to receive by faith. The recipient is not passive but receptive by the gift of grace at work in such a person. In other words Gods grace works in and through
Pauls thorn is persecution. Read the whole chapter. Thats why God didnt take it away because persecution is promised. It has zero to do with being saved. The context is all within the christian life.
@@JH-hx2cl The thorn was most likely a physical infirmity. Persecution was mentioned as another example later. The point is that grace = power. 2Cor12 is contrasting God's power (grace) with Paul's weakness. 1Cor15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Grace is not just power for the Christian life, but the renewing, heart-changing power that brings us into the Christian life. That's why Paul also says that salvation by grace through faith is not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Same kind of language.
Scripturally, it is all grace. Justification could not possibly occur unless God had already provided the grace (undeserved favor) for it to occur. Works testify in the life of the saved person of God's grace in salvation, but salvation occurs entirely by God, and not by man's will, which is also under God's sovereignty.
After listening to both Mike's and James' position on this (as well as reading John Piper's explanation), I feel like the Calvinist position is the most Biblically sound. It's interesting that many Synergists/Arminians will accuse Monergists/Calvinists of "twisting scripture" to fit their doctrine. But I feel like the most straightforward (but careful) reading of Scripture leads us to the Calvinist position.
Amen! I am amazed at how often they claim that if we just read the Bible in a plain and straightforward fashion, we wouldn't be Calvinists, but then put out tons of videos trying to "de-Calvinize" the Bible. You never see that from our side; the Bible is already "Calvinized".
Good to hear/read, Alison! Always remember, as Reformed Christians the bottom line is God's miraculous, powerful, efficacious GRACE ALONE in the salvation of sinners. That's what we exalt in. All synergistic groups ultimately end up trampling upon the efficacious nature of God's Grace in salvation; most of them don't mean to do this, but it is evident if you know the issues. God-speed in your studies of the truth. *Soli Deo Gloria*
SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE ERRORS OF CALVINISM John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" Mark 16:15-16 " And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that BELEIVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Revelations 3:20" Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." John 11:26" and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?" Acts 2:38" Peter replied, "Repent(one must repent, theres no preordained repentance one musy repent) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And YOU WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (not you already have). Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him(who loves him??... People who have repented and accepted the gospel), who have been called according to his purpose. For those God FOREKNEW(key word here foreknew not foremade) he also predestined(he predestines those he foreknew) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.( key word "he that endure" , this is on your own part) Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.( This is the end of this scripture who are the elect here??... The ones who have endured not the ones God made before they were born as elect. He foreknew however he didn't foremake) Shalom!
@@Jesusmyhopeofglory that's a strawman maam. I wonder how you could deduce that from the scriptures i gave. Of course God is sovereign but he has revealed himself to us and his ways in scriptures. The scriptures i gave you are clear and i enjoin you to read them all including the whole chapters for what they say not what calvin says
God elected Christ. Everyone who unites themselves with Christ by faith is elected. There is power in the prepositional phrase “in Him” that Calvinists don’t appreciate. Monergism/Synergism are artificial categories that are irrelevant to Scripture and confuse the issue. Calvinists introduce these categories to win arguments. Winger is right. The Biblical categories are merit/grace.
That's silly. People make up words to help clarify concepts. "Monergism" and "Synergism" are just as artificial as "prepositional phrase" or theological terms like "Trinity". We make up words to label a concept so we don't have to give a 1000+ word explanation every time we want to talk about God's grace alone saving (monergism) or God's grace working in cooperation with man to save (Synergism). That's just how language works and if your complaint had any weight, it would equally refute you.
@@oracleoftroy I didn’t just say that the “words” were made up. I said the categories were artificial. Go take time to understand the difference before you label an idea as silly.
@@HealingWord_Psalm107-20What is artificial about the categories? They seem quite apt given that on Calvinism all that contributes positively to salvation is the work of God, including our faith, and on most non-calvinist systems, humans need to provide some quality of their own, maybe with some assistance by God, but not much more, to actualize the offer of salvation. That difference is important enough to justify labeling them. You not liking that those categorical differences are being called out isn't enough to prove that those differences aren't meaningful. Don't get me wrong, merit and grace are also fine categories to use when discussing this. A robust debate would consider the implications of both of these angles and more. In my experience, non-calvinists reject the monergism/synergism distinction because it too easily reveals the man centric motivation they have for diminishing God's role and raising man's role in salvation.
I'm not even a Calvinist but I know that even my will to seek God, is a gift of grace! we can't even seek or desire God due to our sinful nature. Also the early church believed this too. The canons at the 2nd council of Orange are pretty clear. It is not a 'work' as Mike said- but a gift of grace. we do not 'partake' in salvation because we can do nothing to save ourselves. __Trent affirms the council of Orange-this demonstrates that for 1000 years the early church affirmed the view that Augustin held and Pope Boniface gave it his signature & ecumenical authority. So mike disagrees here with the early church as well as scripture. "The sixth canon of Orange teaches that in matters of salvation, we cannot make the first move. Any move we make (e.g. belief, will, desire, prayer, etc.) toward God is itself already a gift of God’s grace working in us. In no place does the Council of Trent deny this. *In fact, Trent affirms this very doctrine* in chapter five of session six, and in Canon 3 of that same session, which reads: Canon 3: *If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.* "
Lol you just literally categorized yourself as a Calvinist. It’s like saying, “I’m not an atheist nor an agnostic, but there is literally not a shred of evidence that God exist” John 6:44... “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” This is one of the main verses used to uphold the Calvinist/Augustinian view. Notice that when John 6:44 claims that when God draws us... we “can” come to Christ. “Can” comes from the Greek word “dunatai”... which means potential ability (not inevitable action). Proof of this is when the same word- with the same structure- was used in Matt 3:9, where John the Baptist told the Pharisees, “dont say ‘we have Abraham as our father’, for God CAN raise up children to Abraham from stones.” But did God raise up children from stones... of course not! Because “can” is potential ability... not inevitable action. Furthermore, what people in your camp like to ignore is context. Jesus said in the end of that chapter that “it is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. My WORDS are spirit and life.” Compare this to Romans 10 when it said, “how will they believe in Him whom they have not heard” and “FAITH COMES FROM HEARING, and HEARING BY THE WORDS OF CHRIST.” So, hearing the words of Christ is definitely the mechanism, the “drawing” of the Father, that makes faith in Christ POSSIBLE for all (when they hear the gospel). John 5:34 is THEE PROOF for this. In John 5:34, Jesus told the Jews “who were not willing to come to Him in v.40” that, “I say these things that YOU (the unbelieving Jews) may be saved.” This is called Scriptural consistency. Contextual analysis of a single verse. The Augustinian view is simply not tenable with verses like John 6:44
@@progodspeed2311 ok so I think you ignored what I actually said in light of church history and the canons at the 2nd council of orange. you should read them if you haven't already...if you have then you will come to the same conclusion as me and be in agreement with 1500 years of church history. the canons haven't been abrogated, they still stand have ecumenical authority. if you take issue with what THEY say (not what I say or 'my camp') then you need to take it up with Augustine & TCF ;) Just read the canons then get back to me
@@Em.G.. Appeal to Authority... a logical fallacy when you dismiss someone’s argument on the basis of appealing to a group/person. Instead of saying, “the councils said so”, you ought to say, “the councils interpret the passage this way, on the basis of these grounds.” Then it will be logical to say, “the councils said so” Here’s a claim... faith in Christ is NOT given to you. Romans 10:17 says, “faith COMES FROM HEARING. And HEARING by the WORDS OF CHRIST.” Notice it doesn’t say, “faith is given.” When ANYONES hears the gospel, they can believe. This makes sense where Christ told the Jews who were “not willing to come” to Him that “I say things that YOU may be saved” (John 5:34) Romans 10 also says, “how will the believe in Him whom they have not heard.” Which is implying that unless one hears the gospel... they cannot come to Jesus. Which makes sense in light of John 6 where it says “no one can come unless drawn” and “flesh profits nothing... MY WORDS are spirit and life” in the same chapter. I’m saying because of these verses... the councils you appeal to are in error. It doesn’t matter if they have been holding on to erroneous claims for a second or for a million years... error will always be error.
@@progodspeed2311 you decided to reply to my original comment without even looking at the canons smh. You tried to make this into a Calvinist/your team vs us situation. Again, as I said, if you read them and disagree then take it up with Augustine and church history. This is not MY opinion, it is Church history :) anyway, I don't debate or like to go back and forth too many times, so peace of Christ be with you brother/sister
@@progodspeed2311 you obviously wanna argue lol. I'm far from illiterate when it comes to Scripture. nice try though. You said the Augustinian view is not tenable in view of John 6:44...and my response again is GO LOOK AT THE CANONS! who even are you to argue with Augustine AND the Canons and the whole of church history LOL obviously you know better that Augustine, the canons, Trent etc. ok scholar! LOLLLLL you're literally trying to argue with me over my agreement with the canons haha go away
The exodus is a direct representation of Us and Christ. “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.” Hebrews 3:19 ESV “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16 ESV What need is there for the gospel if God has to specifically open the hearts of certain individuals....is it really the Word that has power? Certainly NOT! This is where Calvinism is so wrong. The Word has power to bring life to ALL! there are none who seek HIM, so God seeks US....if we respond to HIS call, we will be saved! Gods grace is the fact that we even have a choice because we don’t deserve one and we’re destined for death. “do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,” Hebrews 3:8 ESV The Bible is full of free will and I chuckle when calvinists say “show me where it says “”free will”” in the Bible.” Does the Bible also talk about nuclear fusion? But we know it’s a thing right? Calvinism is so far from the truth
_"What need is there for the gospel if God has to specifically open the hearts of certain individuals."_ What need is there of a gospel if man doesn't need a savior because he can same himself?
He's basically saying that it's wrong to imply that the synergistic way of understanding salvation means that man is also saving himself along with God. Dr White's refutation of this is that synergism's claim is that God is trying to save everybody, but only those who believe end up saved because they righteously chose to believe while the unrighteous did not. The problem with this is that it assumes that the person had faith because they were humble enough to believe, but the biblical claim is that God reaches within us and grants us repentance and faith even though we're prideful. We receive faith through the grace of God. It's His gift to us, not our gift to him.
Falcon I’m guessing you’re a Calvinist jumping up to defend James White? There is nothing wrong with responding to someone as long as you allow someone to complete their explanation before you respond. Cutting someone’s explanation in half and responding to that and then moving onto the next point should look suspicious to anyone.
There are multiple verses to support their (Calvinism & Arminism) view or key points but let's sum up this way, in a broader sense or quick conclusion.. The Bible says we are "Spiritually dead" now, how can a dead man do something to be made alive or regenerated? First of all he had to be made alive because a dead man cannot hear or respond. The same is true spiritually. If we are dead in our sin, as the Bible teaches we cannot respond to the gospel call and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We must first be made alive. At the heart of this doctrine of election the answer to the question is: why does one believe the gospel and other does not? Is it because one is smarter, has better reasoning capabilities, or possess some other characteristics that allows him to realize the importance of the gospel message? Or is it because of what God does something unique in the lives of those whom he saves? If it's is because of what the person believes does or is, then in a sense he is responsible for his salvation and has a reason to boast. However, if the difference is solely that God does something unique in the hearts and lives of those who believe in Him and are saved, then there is no ground of boasting and salvation is totally a sovereign act of God (see John 11: 43) A good example of Jesus raising Lazarus. Salvation is something He does which enables us to believe the gospel call, not something that comes as a result of our belief. This fact will definitely crush down many proffesing Christians but it is what it is. He does everything according to His will and mercy Psalm 115:3. Am a sinner saved by His Grace and mercy and not by my will Amen.
Amen! So often they view man as not being a creature that completely and wholeheartedly despises God by nature. Just look at the world and it's clear what's in the natural human heart and it sure isn't a desire to know who God is. I see the belief of arminianism to be a matter of pride, they fundamentally cannot consistantly believe that everything comes from God and all thanks for it belongs to Him. A clear way to see that faith must come from God is whether God is the source of all truth or not, if he is then if your having faith is true than by necessity it has come from God else not all truth is from God. I don't think any Christian would say that there's truth outside of God so a simple argument like this should clearly show that God should be acknowledged and thanked for what he has given you but their pride keeps them from accepting that. I pray that the Lord humbles them that they might know him better and worship Him for all he does.
A blind man can’t see unless someone gives him sight. A deaf man can’t hear unless someone opens his ears. This is the state of Man It is done for us. Grace is given. Us being able to know God is because he allowed himself to be known. I’m with you 👍🏾
You just made a false equivocation fallacy, which I see that is very very very prevalent among reformed thinkers like yourself. You defined being "dead to God" in Ephesians 2 to the physical death that all life on earth experience. They cannot be defined in like terms. Reasons are below: 1.) People that are dead to God still have a conscience that accuses them of right and wrong, which Romans 2:14-16 claims that this is the very basis on which God judges humanity (particularly those who never heard God's Word). Romans 2:15 and Acts 17:26-27 even teaches that they can act on this and find God even if they never hear of Him by name. Acts 17:26-27 literally says that anyone can "grope" for God like a blind man, and STILL find Him. 2.) Romans 1:18-20 shows how every man has a general revelation of God revealed to them through nature. It literally says that God made these things "evident to them." 3.) Matt 10:14 and Hebrews 10:26 teach that those who hear the gospel and reject it will receive a heightened punishment far worse imaginable, worse than the standard punishment. It doesn't make sense to heighten the severity of someone's punishment if its impossible to respond to it. It's only consistent when God increases their punishment when they could've responded to it with their increased knowledge of the gospel. Therefore, if being dead to God is the same as physical death, then they shouldn't be able to convicted by their conscience, they shouldn't be able to perceive God through nature, and they most certainly shouldn't even be able to listen to gospel... let alone be commanded to obey it. QED being dead to God is not equivalent to saying that they cannot respond to God... there are just too many passages to suggest otherwise. Final proof is John 5:34, where Jesus told Jews who ultimately did not receive Him (v.40), "... I say these things to you that you may be saved."
@@progodspeed2311 His comment wasn't at all a false equivocation. The only way you can prove it is is by proving that spiritually dead people can do what is spiritual. If physically dead people can't take part in the physical world than spiritually dead people can't take part in the spiritual world. In other words you aren't arguing against him but rather the scriptures themselves which have used talked of spiritual death and are now saying back at the Word of God that the writers used an incorrect phrase because spiritual death doesn't mean spiritual death. The burden is on you to prove the writers analogy to be incorrect and quoting verses that talk of man's obligation and knowledge that he should choose spiritual things does not prove that man by nature wants to choose spiritual things which is the point of being spiritually dead. In other words your argument was an equivocation fallacy itself.
@@bat-stranger3067 Romans 4:5 says, “... but to Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.” It doesn’t say to Him who justifies the “godly” who believes. So, the notion that you must be spiritual to believe is a FLAT OUT contradiction to Romans 4:5, where it says that the ungodly is justified through his faith. All the Bible says is that you can’t live to God (that is LIVING spiritually) while being dead to God.
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith, "AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES", it is a gift of god, not of works lest any man should boast. Even our faith is a gift of God. When you come to understand these terms it really is humbling and awe inspiring that he would choose us for salvation. How much more so now, being chosen by God, that we should serve him.
God delegated to mankind the ability to make moral choices. He left Adam and Eve in the garden with a choice. We can choose for or against Him and live with the consequences. God does the saving, we do the choosing. Calvinism distorts the revealed and declared character of God: "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowldege of the truth." Calvinism sets that statement on its ear along with other principles of the bible.
@@shorelanderrealty We are under the New Covenant, friend. Adam was under works; We are of Grace. By Grace are ye saved, through Faith in CHRIST, not of him who wills nor him who works, but of GOD.
@@aaronfisher3003 That's not really the issue. The issue is that it is weird to agree with the Calvinist that God's gift is (salvation by grace through faith) and then deny one or more of (God gives the salvation), (God gives the grace), (God gives the faith). Since specifically faith being a gift is denied, how does that comport with scripture that teaches that everything we have is a gift (e.g. 1 Corinthians 4: 7) and more specifically, that faith isn't something we author, but Christ (e.g. Hebrews 12: 2). Mike Winger is correct that the whole thing is a gift, but his insistance that faith is something that originates in us seems inconsistent with scripture when we find that not only is the whole of salvation by grace through faith a gift from God, but each part originates with God (not man) as well, thus faith (or any other piece of salvation) is not something that man produces to merit the gift of salvation that they may boast.
@@oracleoftroy Jesus being the author and perfector of the faith (Hebrews 12:2) in no way implies a believers' faith is not a freewill response. If faith is purely a gift from God, why did Jesus repeatedly rebuke the disciples for their lack of faith? Was Jesus rebuking them for not having something that only He could give?
Mike's got some good stuff, but the bottom line is that he consistently misunderstands or misrepresents Reformed theology on these points. He defines his terms as he chooses and then fails to truly engage with the Reformed tradition because he doesn't show that he understands *their* definitions. Where this gets even more frustrating for me is when I see so many Christian brothers and sisters who are absolutely in love with this guy and consequently often fail to either recognize where he may be mistaken or practically refuse to believe that he could be mistaken.
We are saved by grace through believing the gospel. Believing is contrary to working. Belief isn't a work that we do, but believing is something that men must do.
Claiming that men, fallen in Adam (being spiritual children of the wicked one), can conjure up Saving Faith within themselves [out of the cauldron of their own "libertarian free will"] is making faith a "work" of fallen man...rather than being a gift from God, infused into the sinner by God's GRACE ALONE. THAT is why the Reformed claim that all synergistic groups make belief a "work" of man.
Ryan Gallmeier Christ be with you Faith comes from hearing (Rom 10:17) Jesus tells us calling him Lord is we don’t do as he says. (Luke 6:46-49) No one gets saving Faith by themselves but by abiding in Christ and that is only done by keeping his commandments. (John 15:1-11) God bless you
@@MrKev1664 Hearing the Gospel call is the instrumental means by which sinners come to believe (Rom. 10:17); however, this is the EXTERNAL MEANS, and no one is able to come to faith simply by hearing the Gospel. Something else...something else very important must accompany the EXTERNAL CALL (aka. the "General Call") of the Gospel in order for any sinner to believe it: God's DRAWING [by Grace and the power of the Holy Spirit]. This can be called the INTERNAL CALL (aka. the "Effectual Call"). God Himself, in the Effectual Call, by His Grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, actually infuses Faith into those whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3-14). Jesus taught that the Father would give a people to the Son, and as a result, they would actually come to the Son; that is, "believe in Him" (Jn. 6:37). Jesus also taught that it was in NO ONE'S power to conjure up faith within themselves (Jn. 6:44), but that the Father must first do the effectual drawing if anyone was to come to saving faith in the Messiah. Which means: if you have faith in the Son/Messiah...you should PRAISE GOD for the faith that He Himself gave you. You should thank Him everyday for bringing you to the Son. However, if anyone thinks they conjured up faith within themselves (like Mike Winger does), then they cannot give God thanks, or praise for His glorious, miraculous, efficacious GRACE...and, they might as well thank and praise themselves because they were better than all the others who could have also conjured up faith within themselves, but chose not to. Hope this helps. *Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647 Christ be with you As I said no one does it alone, of course, we need God. What forms does Gods aid come in? How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:14-17) Jesus Christ chose this as his method of Spreading the Gospel. o ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matt 28:19-20) None of us knows if we are amonst the elect But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:9-11) God bless you
In the RUclips clip, note James White's false use of mathematical percentages to quantitatively render that which is qualitative. When math is used to depict the idea of synergism, then the knee jerk tendency is to sum up your part + God's part and arrive at 100%. Since you tend to give credit to God alone, you will tend to give 0% to yourself and 100% to God. This now appears as if you do nothing and God does everything and it appears to prove monergism. The question that needs to be asked of White is from does he assume the liberty to build math equations to denote the qualitative ? God's work and man's response are two separate categories, and hence one should not fall into the trap of trying to sum up efforts of God and man mathematically They are categorically different. James White himself has told the Muslims that there is no analogy on earth for the Trinity (be it math or using natural phenomenon) Yet he happily uses up math analogies for synergism. He is a big talker about 'being consistent'. Yet is he consistent now ?
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and NOT ONLY FOR OURS but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." - 1 John 2:2 "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL PEOPLE, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL PEOPLE." - Romans 5:18 "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, and especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10
I just started listening to Mike winger, I got halfway through this video of him and came here to hear james white say exactly what I was thinking the whole video lol it seems like if it weren't for that one phrase "free will choice" Mike Winger might be a calvinist. God knows everything... God made the world.. God did it all.. Calvinism has just always made sense to me because it supports the truth that God is all-mighty and all-knowing and I really think that somewhere deep down non-reformed brothers and sisters know it as well, but they just get caught up in the phrase "free will". But anyway God bless'em and keep telling it to them straight.
So it makes sense to you that God predistined people to hellfire? That is God to you? That would be very immoral. To let man be born in sin and that the only way for them to be saved would be if God wants them to. That doesnt sound like the God of the bible at all. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son so that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everylasting life" If calvinism were true this promise would be a lie. God reaches out to us first with his love and grace, but we have the free will to either believe and accept that grace or to disregard that and sign our own damnation. For love there must be free will. Love doesnt exist without free will. God is a God of love and relations. He wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to love him. We cant do that without free will. Otherwise he might aswel have made pre programmed robots. But again then it wouldnt be love
@@menknurlan whosoever believe in Him that were drawn by the Father, unless he wouldn't believe. John 6:43-44 (KJV) "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, MURMUR NOT AMONG YOURSELVES. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day." Men already in condemnation before God revealed His grace through His Son. John 3:17-18 (KJV) "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Look at the word "ALREADY" at verse above.
@jsea321 we're all would NOT to choose God if the Father wasn't draw us to His Son. John 6:44 (KJV) "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day." We were all in condemnation before God draw us to His Son so we can believe. John 3:18 (KJV) "He that believeth on him is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." The word ALREARY explaining The word "For God sent not his Son into THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD; but that the world through him might be saved" (verse 17). The world is in condemnation already, but that's why Jesus come so that the world through him might be saved, they which "DRAWN BY THE THE FATHER TO CHRIST. 1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV) "BUT OF HIM ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:" 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (KJV) "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING brethren, how that NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, HATH GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE." That's why we cannot say that we believe because we understand the Gospel by our understanding, but rather it was given to us. The Gospel is a foolish thing according to our flesh mind, so it would be automatically be rejected by our flesh mind. That's why so many reject it, but Christians do accept it. Why? Because the Father draw us to Jesus. John 6:45 (KJV) "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. EVERY MAN THEREFORE THAT HATH HEARD, AND HATH LEARNED OF THE FATHER, COMETH UNTO ME." Noted that word "EVERY MAN", not some, but EVERY MAN that heard the Father. Now how many people have heard the gospel but only some that come to Jesus?
Mike's take on calvinism is unbiblical, but regardless it's tiring waiting for him to make a point as he tip toes around, trying not to be offensive. He should be more direct so it doesn't take an hour to state a position.
They do not have the love of God in their teachings as central. I have had some Calvinist pastors confess as much to me when I brought in up to them. The Westminster Confession does not center on the love of God, even though the Scripture does (1 Corithians 13, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John, etc.) Also, Calvinists don't seem to take the warnings of Scripture to heart, from what I can see. Perhaps this leads to a false sense of confidence and more. We must all stay humble. If we are humble first, our confidence before God is more likely to be real. We don't just give live by these words (assent), but by actually doing them. Maybe Calvinists need to be reminded of these things.
Just be consistent, JW. Tell the lost there is nothing whatsoever they must do or believe to be saved. If God loves them. If God wants them. He’ll just save them. 🤷🏻♂️
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.” Romans 9:14-16 ESV
Bro... why don't Calvinist ever post verses in light of their context. You must consider two things when reading Romans 9: 1.) "Though the twins were not yet born and HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, '.The older will serve the younger'” (Romans 9:11-12). Look closely to how God elects... look how he looks at these people... He looks at them having not done anything good or bad. In simpler terms... their sinful or righteous actions were not taken into account when God was considering who to elect; therefore, it has nothing to do with their salvation or damnation. This must not be confused with reformed doctrine of "unconditional election", where God is choosing from among sinners who've already sinned. 2.) "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants" (Romans 9:8). The children of flesh are the Jews who think they are the true sons of Abraham by virtue of physically descending from him... whereas the true children of Abraham are those who by virtue of faith (Gal 3:7) are chosen. Romans 9 is all about God having the right to choose among the people of faith rather than the direct descendant of Abraham. This flows with Romans 9:30-31, where it talks about how it is the Gentiles- who didn't seek to attain righteousness- who have attained God's righteousness, whereas the Jews didn't. Romans asks why? Because they did not pursue righteousness by faith (v.32). The chapter never eliminated the possibility for the Jews to come to faith.
@@progodspeed2311 I never said I was a Calvinist, also this passage emphasizes God’s sovereignty and his ordinance over what happened to the Jews that rejected Christ, and how he elected Gentiles outside of supposed Israel. These are true “Israelites” according to salvation. Yes this is talking about salvation, are you kidding me? Every chapter before and after chapter 9 are about salvation. Read the context I don’t know what point you’re trying to make honestly, it’s not making any sense
We are DEAD in our sin so how can I say I have done anything? No one comes unless God Draws,Its very clear.🧐Just learned about Election and predestination from RC Sproul.It was so wonderful to get it!
@@laurenferris5651 That's like saying "Apostle Paul thought us the Gospel of Jesus Christ." And then you saying, " Shouldn't you learn from Jesus not from Apostle Paul?" In 1 Cor 3:10 Paul says, that he Paul like a skilled builder laid the foundation which is Jesus Christ. RC is not like Paul in terms of authority of writing scripture, but he is also skilled in laying foundations and walls of biblical truth.
@@tomk4984 RC taught many false things; I would not advise listening to him. He is not comparable to Paul, and he ended up deceiving many into believing Calvinism is what the Bible teaches, when it should be obvious that it doesn't.
You should read John 12:32, and know that there is no person alive that God is not drawing to himself. Ephesians 1 says that those who are in Christ are predestined to be holy and blameless in His sight. It's talking to and about the faithful who are *IN* Christ Jesus, as Paul says in verse 1. He then tells us in verse 13 that we, or anyone, is put into Christ when they hear the truth of the gospel and believe, and then we are sealed with the Spirit. That's how we become one of those who are predestined for the adoption of sonship. Nowhere does it say that certain people are elected or predestined TO BELIEVE, which is what calvinism teaches... I beg you to run from Calvinism, it is not what the bible is teaching, and if followed consistently, it shows a different god that is not the God of the bible.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 In John 12:20 Who is Jesus talking to? Greeks. The Greeks came and said they wanted to talk to Jesus. So when Jesus said I will draw ALL people to myself, he means people from all kinds of tribes and nations. Because Jesus earthly ministry was only to the Jews. All doesn't always mean every single person on planet earth, is does sometimes but we can only figure out by context. We know this from practical daily use of the English language. If I'm talking to my group of friends and say "You're all invited to go to lunch together". I'm not saying every single person on earth is invited, but I mean all people of my friends are invited. Also if everyone on earth was drawn then they would be saved. Since John 6:44 says those that the father draws He will raise up on the last day. So if everyone was drawn then everyone would be raised up to eternal life.
I think the question Dr. White should consider is IF NO ONE WANTED TO BE SAVED, why did God choose to elect so few since they all did not want a relationship with God? His question is far easier to answer in a world where there is free will, it makes the possibility that some will not choose God even if God's desire is for all to be saved.
How do you know God only elected a few? The Bible indicates that in innumerable multitude will be saved, and personally I believe that the final tally will have a majority of people who ever existed saved. I think you are importing non-Calvinist assumptions into your question.
@@oracleoftroy Jesus says that broad and wide is the path to destruction and that narrow is the gate that leads to life, few finds it. This means, going by calvinism, that God will only save a few while letting the majority perish.
@@LaCréé.e I agree with the passage; in fact, going by Romans 1-3, I would say that so few find it that the number is zero. Salvation isn't by man's effort to find the path, but by God who is mighty to save. And God will save as many as he wants to.
Its public record, it is the facts! Calvin was a murderer, torturer and you call it him having a problem with anger that we all have to deal with? Before Calvin it was Augustine who invented the Calvinist "Election" Heresy. It does not teach unconditional election. The only condition that God puts on salvation is that the person receives it because they desire it and THEY put their faith in Him. But wait I almost forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you take every time the scriptures says "World" which is 20 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Whosoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "All" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect If you take every time the scriptures says "Everyman" which is 6 times and twist and force it to say Elect Then yes Calvin got it right. and Reformed Theology is true! WINK WINK Even the cult of the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses could take twisting lessons from the Deformed Theology pretending to be Christianity. TRUTH IN LOVE
i hope to keep track of this conversation until there are a thousand windows within windows
Apologetical Inception
Aaron Hart hahaha, I love that reference 😂
😂😂😂😂
Thought I was the only one expecting that!!
😂 😂 good one!
Mike Winger needs lots of correction.
Nah this guy does.
Fundamental Questions Which Separate Monergism From Synergism:
1) From whence does Faith come?
2) What does Grace ACTUALLY effectuate in any sinner?
Answering these two questions would clear up much confusion.
Ryan Gallmeier “because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Romans 10:9 ESV
bible.com/59/rom.10.9.esv. Nowhere in the scripture does it say that there is an effectually given faith the closest you can get to that sort of idea is that the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner through hearing the gospel and in hearing one decides whether one believes the truth or rejects it
I notice that you didn't answer my questions, though.
This is typical from synergists...they refuse to answer straight-forward questions.
Again:
1) From whence does Faith arise in any sinner?
2) What does God's Grace actually effectuate in any sinner?
My answer would come from Scripture.
For example:
"No one can come to me (ie. 'believe on me') unless the Father who sent me draws him...." (Jn. 6:44).
1) Faith is synonymous with "coming to Jesus," and Jesus said that no one is able to believe on Him unless the Father draws (by His GRACE) them to Him.
Eph. 2:8 is clear on this as well: "for by grace you have been saved through faith and that (the grace, the salvation, AND THE FAITH) not of yourselves, the gift of God it is.."
2) Grace actually effectuates a change of heart/mind in the dead sinner SO THAT when graced, the sinner actually believes in the Gospel concerning the Christ. Again, Jn. 6:37, 44 (et. al.) lays this out nicely.
Hope this helps.
Let me know if you have questions.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Ryan Gallmeier yes at the end of the day we all believe (if we have read scripture) that because of grace we can have faith) the Calvinist would say faith is of the Lord and I agree to a point we divide when the Calvinist says that God made you have faith by regenerating you first an idea supposed from an ideology outside of scripture. Scripture simply didn’t support God regenerating me as to make a choice between choice a only no choice b ??? Does that make any rational sense?!? I suggest you read the scriptures again.
What did Jesus mean by this: "All that the Father gives me will come to me..." (Jn. 6:37)?
1) The Father gives a sinner to the Son; and, as a result:
2) the sinner 'comes' to the Son [in faith].
There is NO room for failure, here.
It seems that you would have it that the Father gives a sinner to the Son; but then that sinner still retains the right of refusal to reject the Son.
Is this what you are saying?
If so, then that means Jesus' words were fallacious.
You would respond to Jesus this way:
"No, Jesus, NOT all that the Father gives you will come to you;
rather, it's only if they exercise their 'power of contrary choice' to do so; but they can just as well choose not to".
Therefore, you make Jesus' words utterly fallacious and untrue.
This is called UNBELIEF in what God hath said.
Jesus said explicitly: "All that the Father gives to me WILL come to me..."
That is prophetic...it's emphatic...it WILL happen; and not anything in heaven or hell can stop it, including the "will" of man.
You believe that man can actually thwart this prophetic statement from the Lord of Glory.
I rebuke you for this error!
Quit exalting fallen man as the ultimate determiner of his own salvation...your theology is an attempt to steal glory from God, whether you are cognizant of this or not, it's what you're doing.
Do some more study on the subject of regeneration logically (not temporally) preceding faith...check the Scriptures on this factual doctrine.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
Ryan Gallmeier Judas was given by the father😱
There is none “none” no not one that seeks after God.God alone,God alone saves. Thank you Jesus.
Stalin murdered 20 million of his own people! The god of the John Calvin and the reformed theologians will murder billions of people that he has created and charge them with the very evil that he forced them to do! The form of execution? Torture in the everlasting fire of Hell! Some god you have there. Dr White! Let me tell you of the God of use Christians. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior. 4 who wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time. Big difference! You are following the demonic gospel of evil men. Your conscience is seared or you would have responded to the holy Spirits rebukes. You repel those who are looking at Christ by presenting him as a monster. Those who do believe can have their faith shipwrecked if they fall for your cleverly crafted lies. To the mature Christians you fill with doubts of their own salvation thus crippling them from service they might do! You have surrounded yourself with other false teachers each saying what your itching ears want to hear. John Piper, John MacArthur, RC Sproul, Washer, Calvin and many others. Your message is that God doesn’t love you, God doesn’t want to save you, He is the source of all evil and you need not apply. He doesn’t want you! You are doomed from the womb and God will glorify himself by your destruction. As your great leader has taught you, John Calvin. You are all the false teachers with a mil stone around your necks. You hinder the children from coming to their savior. I pray God intervenes ever so severely and puts a stop to your blasphemies!
You can seek after God. You can seek God. God does not command impossibilities! Dogma.
@@josephmyers9843 What about Romans 3?
Was Cornelius not seeking God with his charity and prayers before he was saved? Did you forget proverbs 8:17 which says “I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me”
@@truth7416 Dang brother. I can't tell if this is excessive or just honest and accurate.
I think the best argument against "synergism" is J.I. Packers Introductory essay to the "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" by John Owen.
I'm tempted to make a reaction video of this video simply to add to the confusion.
I do want to preface all of this by saying that I love the work you are doing (I don't know whether to call you Dr. or Mr. James White...my apologies). You said "If we have all received the exact same grace of God, and then you accepted, they rejected, then grace isn't what distinguishes us, is it?" (This is near the 6 minute mark). You are right, it is belief and unbelief that distinguishes us in Mike's view. The thing is, Mike's position there seems perfectly aligned with Scripture. I will point out that it is you, not Mike, who is calling his belief a work, thus making it appear that he is believing something that is contrary to Scripture. But John 3:16-18 aligns with his position more than your's. 3:16 says "whosoever believes" will be saved. 3:17 says God sent Jesus to save the world. 3:18 says that belief is the difference between condemnation and salvation. You say the difference between saved and unsaved is the grace of God, Mike says the difference is belief. John 3:18 agrees with his position, while John 3:16-17 seems to disagree with yours. God sent Jesus to save the world, and anyone who believes will be saved. The difference is indeed belief and not grace, because that grace is in fact being offered to the whole world...but you are categorizing that belief as a work while the Bible specifically says it is not (Eph. 2:9).
correction...you don't call his belief a "work", but that is the implication of the phrase "autonomous act".
The text "Whosoever believes" is descriptive, not prescriptive. And the word "world" does not refer to every single human being on earth.
Hi Vae! Why would the universal term “world” not refer to every person on earth? It would have been easy for Jesus to use a selective term like “the elect”, but he chose not to. He chose an inclusive word rather than an exclusive one, and he clearly did so on purpose. “Whosoever” is also an inclusive, rather than exclusive word.
For clarity, could you lay out the implications of whosoever being descriptive rather than prescriptive, and tell me from the context of John 3 why you made the decision to interpret it that way?
Thanks so much!
@@christopherwalls4850
Actually Jesus does refer to the elect, in comparison to the world.
"I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."
John 17:9 ESV
The word world has different meanings depending on the context.
Jesus ministry was restricted to a small part of the world yet the Pharisee use the word world in exaggeration to describe his followers.
So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him."
John 12:19 ESV
Someone actually documented the many different meanings of the word world in the book of John, I just can't recall who it was.
Vae07 Thanks for the reply! In the upper room Jesus said he was not praying for the world, which still makes world a universal term. Yes, the Pharisees used the term to exaggerate, but even so it was used in a universal way. Give me one other example of the word “world” meaning strictly the elect, because there is really nothing in John 3 to allow you to interpret it that way. I would also still like to know why you consider whosoever to be descriptive and what that does to the interpretation of the passage.
This is one of the many things Calvinist can’t explain, how is someone regenerated before he puts his faith in Jesus Christ! Ephesians 2:8 isn’t saying the gift was faith the gift was salvation by grace!
That's like asking someone to explain how one can be born before they talk! It's obvious to anyone who understands the relationship between being born and doing things that require one to be born. Of course you need to be spiritually born again to excersize the faith that is the work of God (Jn 6: 29) and authored by Christ, not man (Heb 12: 2).
And Winger rightly deals with your Eph 2: 8 understanding, the gift is all of Salvation by grace _through faith_ and all of that not by yourself, but by God. You can't separate out the faith like that, as if that's what we give to God in payment for salvation. The grammar doesn't allow it. Here your objection isn't to Calvinism, but to basic Greek grammar that even someone who disagrees with Calvinism like Winger can see and accept.
@@oracleoftroy - Salvation is the gift of God not our faith. You have to corrupt the entire Bible to get that faith is a gift. Works is the opposite of Faith but both are the responsibility of the man. The man can either believe God and receive eternal life or he can attempt to earn life by his works. It is always; faith then salvation, faith then healing, faith then answer to prayer, faith then experiencing God not the other way around. Why is God judging men for the lack of faith or rebuking men for the lack of faith or f He is the one that gives it? If God did that He would be dishonest or a deceiver and that is not the God of the Bible!!
I've only watched up to 8:21 and am too tired to finish, so forgive me if it's foolish to comment. But there's only one point that's been made over and over by the speaker so far and it's built on the strange assumption that God has already given His saving grace to everyone. I don't see that in the Bible. God's saving grace isn't first given, then accepted. It's offered, and only freely given upon acceptance. One difference between someone who accepts God's grace and who doesn't is that they made a decision. But that's not the only difference. The other difference is that God never gives His grace to those who don't want it. He didn't force saving grace upon everyone. He said "I've prepared this, would you like it? I give it to everyone who comes under Jesus' Lordship, whether they mess up or not" I think part of the misconception is to make God and grace some sort of math equation , rather than a person and a relationship? He's not an immutable foister of Grace. He's a person offering His hand out in reconciliation. That's how i read the Bible and how i seem to interpret the main point halfway through. Again, forgive me if it's foolish words late at night.
Having a link to the clips would be a good addition.
If we are, as Jesus said, to have faith like a child to enter the kingdom of God, how would any child be able to understand your faith, Dr. White. Sir, the reason why you have yet to hear someone give you an explanation is because you don't have ears to hear. The explanation has been given here by Pastor Mike and those commenting.
Even my children know that when I give them a gift, it's not earned by any good thing they have done. If I give them all blankets on Christmas Eve, they all have to reach out and take it, to wrap themselves into it to be able to enjoy the comfort of it. But, if one of them doesn't want it and/or "receive" it, they don't experience the goodness of the blanket and the gift is useless. Wanting and receiving aren't works for the gift. The same gift - a blanket (eternal life); same offering - freely given (by grace), not earned; different responses - acceptance/application or rejection/ non-application.
Define work: not by works "of righteousness"; all your righteousness is as filthy rags.
IE. we can't work at being good enough for God.
Belief - an act of acceptance, not a work of righteousness.
Faith - hope of things not seen.
The gift of faith is well illustrated by the man who asked Jesus to heal his son. He WANTED his son to be healed, but how it could be possible, he didn't understand. "I believe; HELP MY UNBELIEF." Jesus gave him faith and healed his son, not because either the man or his son did any righteous act to deserve it. It was an act of grace on Jesus' part.
Simply put by Paul, "...the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ...." No one HAS to receive a gift. If it's compulsory, it's no longer a gift; it has become an obligation.
You know a lot and I respect you, but I fear your much learning has puffed you up. Get back to childlike faith.
PS not everything Luther and Calvin said are correct. We didn't trade "infallible Pope" for "infallible Reformers". Bible, please.
Madam, it's very clear you don't understand your own words let alone the Bible
If we go by your logic, your children's acceptance to the blanket is a good work on their part while those who rejected did the bad work
Good works mean you have something to boast about
The Bible clearly teaches that the elect have nothing to boast about (Romans 3:22-30, Ephesians 2:8-10, Philippians 3:1-11)
The reason why you chose Christ is because the Sprit of God regenerated your soul. Until then, you had hated God and never wanted Him nor could you choose Him.
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8 NIV)
You then say "No one HAS to receive a gift. If it's compulsory, it's no longer a gift; it has become an obligation."
This statement further reveals your ignorance because you still foolishly think man has "free" will. Only God has free will, not man. Man is a volitional moral agent, i.e. man can make moral choices but he is NOT autonomous (exempt from the direct influence of external forces). God has predetermined all your choices even before you were conceived. You're either a slave to sin or a slave to Christ; you can't be neither.
Read the Bible and repent of your pride, sister.
I pray that God drops the scales off your eyes so that you may see the truth and give Him glory
Bless you!
The biggest fallacy that we subconsciously think is that Christianity is a gentile religion. When we ask for salvation we fulfil the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. Israel is God's chosen people, when we accept Christ we are adopted into the TRUE Jewish faith that God set up thru Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the one true faith God founded on Mt. Sinai, so when we choose Christ he chooses us and we become part of the elect. As my grandfather said, "There is a door and above it reads choose and when we walk thru it the door reads chosen".
Ephesians 2:8-9 Saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. We are not saved if we do not respond in faith. Baptism is an act of obedience that shows our faith. Obedience to a command isn’t a work.
" God elects everyone, yet everyone does not assent to God's election". What is that position called and where is that discussed?
Arminians / humanists will never get that they didn't choose God, but that God chose them, particularly, in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ), unless Yahweh Himself opens their eyes to His Sovereignty.... He must remove a human's stubborn underlying quest for merit ; the evil heart of stone, that OBLIGATES God for their belief and righteous works.... Once, removed, it's the most humbling, spiritual state of rest that a man can experience ; to now have a heart of flesh, where you instead CREDIT Yahweh for your belief and righteous works, and neglect to JUDGE Him for unfairness ( unrighteousness / Romans 9:14 ), and worship Him for showing UNDESERVED GRACE to a repulsive sinner, who considers his sins so abhorent before THE THRICE HOLY GOD, that he has absolutely NO VOICE to object to what "the potter does ( because He made and owns everthing ) with his clay."
But, to the GLORY of Yahweh, and to the FEAR of the elect, we see the natural man manifesting all the emotional baggage that comes along with the fallen state, replying against God and having their conciences seek comfort in synergism ; and resisting down to the bitter end, the rights of the eternal, majestic, ONE WHO DOES WHATSOEVER HE WILLS in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth... So in FEAR we say, "Nay O man, who art thou?"
“For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.” Hebrews 4:2
So ultimately it depends on us to have faith. And that isn’t a work we can boast in, but it’s a decision we must make.
My dear, your faith is a gift from God! The Father elected you unconditionally so that you would believe in the Gospel of your salvation.
"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:1-10 NIV)
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48 NIV)
"Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26 NIV)
I Like Mike winger, he Gives great advice on dealing with Jehovah witnesses. However on this point he is off, James white is spot on, almost always is
I don't believe in Martin Luther and Calvin, they are not in the Bible so I am not trusting it :P
No one is advocating belief in Martin Luther or John Calvin. The question is whether what they believed is biblical. You don't need to know anything about them, it's only a question of their doctrine.
@@risingdawn5788 To be a part of Calvinism is to have a belief that Calvin exists does it not? And to be a Lutheran also means the same thing, to partake in the idea of his existence and support it. I'm just saying that I do not put my faith in either of these people, only the word of God
@@slarkel506 Generally, to be part of "Calvinism" is something that is labelled by a person with an opposing theological view. It is not so much about the person of Calvin, just that the theological view is similar to/same as that of John Calvin, as well as many others. It's known as reformed theology.
I call myself a Christian, because that's what I am, but I do believe much of what Luther and Calvin taught, because I believe it to biblical.
@@slarkel506 So (hopefully) most people who might be called "Calvinists" don't put their faith in Calvin, and the same for "Lutherans". I'd imagine that all claim to have put their faith in Christ.
@@risingdawn5788 Yes some things in which Calvinism and Lutheranism teach are biblical, but what I'm trying to say is that I do not trust in the existence of Calvin and Luther themselves. Why do you think cults like Black hebrew israelites exist? Because they are fed worldly history of African American slavery, so the cult movement is used as an attempt to control the masses and feel sympathy more towards a specific race. It's sick, it's disgusting, but it works. And that's why they use it, cause they are crooked
This just blew my mind. I became a reformed or calvinistic christian a few years ago. I keep asking this exact question and no one so far understands my question. If we all have the same grace then why do I believe and another person dosen't?. Why? Was I more spiritual or humble or smart or discerning? What is it? I'm a wretched sinner and have nothing special about me that others don't have. I know we can't make complete sense in this life of free will and God's sovergrty. I know there is tension. Dr. Martin Loyd has called it an antimony. But the only reasoning that makes sense about who is saved and who isn't as far a scripture and just logical reasoning is that God saves. Salvation is completely of God and not dependant on man. Another thought I had was about belief. Is it a work or not. I dont choose to believe something, I either do or don't believe. If I really dont believe something I can't just choose to believe. it doesn't make any sense. So if saving faith is dependent on me choosing to I believe then it sounds like a work to me. But if God opens my eyes and reveals the truth then it's not a work i just believe because I know it to be true. That's why a true believer never leaves the faith. They can't unbelieve something they know to be true.
Let’s use repentance instead of belief (while they both are part of coming to Christ). Repent is “metanoia” (my spelling of the Greek May be off and I’m just too tired to look it up right now), which is to “change one’s mind”. That simple. God reveals your sin to you and you realize that it is exactly what you are. You have lived your whole life oblivious to the fact that you are a sinner and therefore no savior was required, and now that god has revealed that you are sin and Christ is the only savior, you agree with that truth. There is a “change of mind”. In essence, “repentance”.
So here you see that even repentance is not a “work”, but simply a realization that you are hopeless apart from Christ (which you didn’t believe previously. The result of this change of mind is that you now “believe” what you now know to be true.
Hope this makes a bit of sense, it’s late and I really should of just let it go 😏
"If we all have the same grace then why do I believe and another person dosen't?. Why?"
The Bible says that Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).
And Romans 10:14 says "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" The more that we hear God's word, learn about Him and what He's done, the more faith is possible.
Ephesians 1:13 says "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit".
Now lets look at Romans 1:18-20 "18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
So, you and I believe and another person doesn't, because when we heard the truth about God, we believed, and did not suppress the truth by our wickedness. We see that God makes the truth about Him known to each person, and then, we make the choice. He gives more than one chance, from what I've seen in reality. He keeps drawing us, showing us more truth. The problem is when we are shown truth, and we reject it, even if it's a little bit. He wants us to seek Him freely, He doesn't want to force us to follow Him. Some of us are more rebellious than others, and some of us are more attached to sin than others, and some of us have rejected truth more often than others, and so we have hardened our hearts to the truth of God, and exchange it for a lie.
"Another thought I had was about belief. Is it a work or not. I dont choose to believe something, I either do or don't believe."
Paul contrasts faith (or belief) and works in Romans. Faith is not a work, although Calvinism teaches that it is. Our faith does not merit salvation; God has chosen to save those who believe. And no, you don't just choose to believe something random, but you DO choose to believe something *when you have good reason to believe* . This is why Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Once you have an understanding of what you SHOULD believe, you THEN choose to believe, or suppress.
"Salvation is completely of God and not dependant on man."
Don't let Calvinistic teaching trick you here. Yes, God is the one that saves, and He's chosen to save the faithful in Christ, because that's what He wants to do. But that doesn't mean that our choice to trust Him or not doesn't matter OR that if we make the choice to trust Him that we're somehow saving ourselves... we aren't. Romans 5:2 says that we access God's grace BY our faith. Without our faith and trust in God, we are not in Christ, and if we are not in Christ, God has already decided that those who are NOT in Christ will not be saved.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 This is funny. Anthony was once where you are now. He understands your errors.
But I have seen some of your other comments. You believe complete randomness, such that King David committed adultery because of his love for money (1Tim6:10). You believe that the Bible contradicts itself.
You said, “The more that we hear God's word, learn about Him and what He's done, the more faith is possible.”
For one example, I have an uncle who has hated Hillary Clinton since the 90s when she decided that she was “elected” as First Lady to socialize health care. Despite decades of exposure to Hillary, he still was not at all “free” to vote for her, as he still hated her quite passionately in 2016. But for more biblical examples:
John8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Jesus taught that it wasn't “length of exposure” that enabled you to hear God's words, it was being born of God and having God as a Father. It's silly to say that you chose to be born physically, independently of your birthparents. And madness to claim that you chose to be born of God independently of His sovereign choice. We can only love because He first and foundationally loved us.
Paul heard the Gospel often from Stephen and other Christians he persecuted. Paul eventually came to understand that he deserved hardening just as Pharaoh did as Paul continued to consider their teaching to be foolishness until God forcefully and miraculously revealed the truth to him. The difference between Paul and Pharaoh was not that Paul was better than Pharaoh but that God gave Paul an active mercy which he didn't deserve.
1Cor2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cor1:18 For the message of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God...24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God HAS CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God HAS CHOSEN the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God HAS CHOSEN , and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But OF HIM you are in Christ Jesus...
You boast that you were wise and humble and spiritual enough apart from God to believe - that you were smart enough not to suppress it, but the Bible teaches that God alone gets the credit for the growth of His Church. Not the missionaries, evangelists nor pastors (and as already stated above, not even the hearers.)
1Cor3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
@@TheRazmotaz Repentance is commanded by God so it is an act of obedience.
It is also given by God - as Paul said to Timothy, "if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth..."
But I know noncalvinists who mock the inspired Word of God by treating Paul's teaching as nonsense, "but what if God 'grants them repentance' and they turn it down out of their 'free will'," as if that doesn't make Paul's teaching meaningless and wouldn't have helped Timothy at all.
Those who love the God of the Bible like Timothy did know that if He gives repentance, you will know in space and time because they actually repent. Nothing can return God's word to Him void.
@@chaleej5571 so you say that repentance is an “act”. It’s a little deeper than that. It is a change of mind (again, look up the Greek). How do you know if some has really changed their mind? Well, my mind controls my behavior. Therefore, if I really believe something my behavior will demonstrate that evidenced of that belief. So real repentance produces fruit of repent nice or is evidentiary. This doesn’t make IT a work, but it does PRODUCE works.
I've heard truth come from you and I've heard truth come from the Mike guy it's a very good thing that the Bible says that we have no need for a teacher being we have the Holy Spirit.
A disagreement amongst brothers. These kind of discussions are important. Iron sharpening iron.
love you guys both. Be ONE as our Lord prayed. Dr. James.. I can discern.. there is some theological pride in you sir. Mike's biblical position is on point while calvinisim's rhetoric is way-off in God's infinite ability to give free-will and remain sovereign. But i love you both pls dont give up defending and teaching the church but please guys come to a humble unison..
the catholics are watching
Look at Paul as an example, did Paul have to give permission to God first, before he could be saved! Absolutely not! Paul was stopped dead in his tracks as he was on his way to persecute more Christians! And from that day on he became a slave of righteousness, by the power of Christ! Gods saving ability and love, overcomes anything a person could muster up! Nothing can separate us from the love of God, once he has marked us and set us apart in him!
At least these two men can argue their points without attacking one another. I respect that.
Yeah I love both of them. Very thankful to God for them.
Yeah not many can especially these days so hats off they handled themselves so well.
Something missing from many RUclipsrs, the love for one another that shows they are disciples, love to see it
Thank God we aren’t going to have to pass a test on this to enter heaven. I know that some extremely smart people need to have these discussions for reason they only know, and many will appreciate the effort they put into expressing their views. I heard the gospel, I responded to the gospel message and now I put my trust in Jesus. I love and appreciate both of these men. We can learn a lot from either of them. Speaking for myself, some things are way over my head and I do not beat myself up over it.
Amen. Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. It's simple really. I would advise you to not listen to James White though, as Calvinism is not something that is Biblical, and it leads to some heretical thinking if you follow it too far. Mike Winger's channel is a great resource through; definitely camp out there and listen to the stuff he's got.
If you want to learn more about calvinism, I would suggest checking out Leighton Flowers at this channel ruclips.net/channel/UCPRJ7X3hyFvm-3Jo8rVWYOw
Christian_Gamer_Guy Nope. Both these guys believe in the man made dogmas of the deformers of the 16th century. No such God given dogma such as sola fide and sola scriptura.
@@patquint3291 We all probably have blindspots as far as our understanding of God's word goes, and hopefully we're continually being transformed by the renewing of our minds. I suggested Leighton's channel because I've found it helpful in the discussion of Calvinism, and from what I've heard of his beliefs, he seems to believe what the Bible says.
While it is true that we are not required to have perfect understanding (none of us would qualify) and I am quite sure that brother Wesley is waiting in glory for the rest of us these issues so have practical import and are not inconsequential.
Good point and Simply well spoken!
I'm a little disappointed in the tone of these "gotcha" video titles. Both Mike Winger and John MacArthur (separate video) are good, solid, Christian men with valuable ministries. Neither one is "false teacher" nor disingenuous. When reviewing the sum-total of a life's work, it would not be difficult to find problem areas...even with the greatest theologians. Anyone who tells me that they can completely explain God's work in our salvation, and can positively disprove every component of a contrary view...is probably a little too sure of themselves. I'm a subscriber and enjoy most of these videos, but some of the "he schooled him" variety leave me unimpressed. Maybe in these troubled times, we should be building up our fellow man, and leave non-salvific subjects for trade journals and SBL conventions. The world needs your talents...to teach and lead....not to over-analyze and quibble.
Amen
true
Correcting error is certainly a vital part of the lives we lead, to let error continue is not loving. I understand what you mean, but neither man here claims they can "explain" completely God's will. But what IS revealed is CLEARLY revealed especially in concepts like the one being discussed here
I agree
he mentions if God's grace is granted to each individual and some are still saved and some are still lost, this becomes dependent on autonomous act.
Thats exactly correct, because even an impenitent soul has the free will to accept or deny the grace and mercy of God, even though it is abundant.
Works are not just a fruit, they are necessary for the cooperation that yields salvation. This is because God desires to have all souls saved, though not all will be. If we had no free will to act on virtue (which is cooperation and alignment with the Will of God) then one could argue we are only saved through election.
But we do have free will thus it is necessary for us to act on it through faith (or trust) all for the Glory of God.
I would love to see these two flesh this out in a discussion. Have him on the channel Dr. White!
Amen - I love these two guys. Obviously Mike is a smart and naive guy and I often face palm watching him - He's awesome and I believe he holds to certain ideas he might *think* he believes....but only because he's scared to let go of false ideas.
He's a cool guy...
And I'd love to see his mind changed.
@@jeremycbarnhart2305 I've yet to see anything from Mike that warrants a face palm. What stuff are you talking about!?
When I read the Bible, I see the free gift of salvation and his invitation to receive it and his warning about what happens if I reject it. So I'm going to receive it in humility and tell others to do likewise. I'm going to keep it simple.
Amen. The gospel is so simple, yet so many try to make it complicated?
Thank you so much ❤
No one really tries to make it complicated. The problem is that the man-centered synergism positions have led to a watering down of the gospel, works salvation, altar calls, sinners prayer, etc. The outworking of the theology has been quite destructive
AMEN love it
John 6:37 ESV
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:44 ESV
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Its ONLY for those called. Not everyone. Free will isnt apart of this equation. All who come or seek are only those who are called.
This was later exemplified, and shown to be understood in the early first century church by Paul
Romans 8:29-30 ESV
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
No one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws him. John 6
Christ be with you
and who will Christ save
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:8-9)
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 your question: "and who will Christ save?".
Answer: "all that the father gives to me will come to me..." (Jn. 6:37).
Ryan Gallmeier
Christ be with you
See the difference between the verses.
In Heb 5: 8-9 there is enough information for us to identify if we are amongst those who will be saved.
The verse you give from John doesn't tell you how you can know?
What identifies that you have been drawn what identifies that the Father has given you to Christ?
Notice that it does not say he will save the in this verse but that he shall not cast them out.
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 Faith/belief in the Gospel alone, is the "identifier" of whether one is saved or not.
That's the point of my quoting Jn. 6:37.
If anyone believes in the Gospel, they are saved.
Jn. 6:37 absolutely DOES SAY that "he will save".
Or else, what does Jesus mean when He says, "I will never cast out"?
And, in verse. 39, He says that He will "raise it on on the last day"?
This is clearly about salvation.
If you're attempting to sneak in the back door and add human works to the equation, then I'm afraid you've missed the theological boat completely.
Those "given" by the Father to the Son do actually believe in the Son. Since faith is the sole, instrumental means of Justification, then that means all the ones who believe in the Gospel concerning the Christ will be saved.
And we KNOW that we are saved if we have FAITH in the Gospel concerning Him.
Pretty simple...and, most importantly, biblical.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647
Christ be with you
*You say*
Faith/belief in the Gospel alone, is the "identifier" of whether one is saved or not.
That's the point of my quoting Jn. 6:37.
If anyone believes in the Gospel, they are saved.
*Response*
I don’t thin Jesus mentions the Gospel itself in John 6
I pretty certain Jesus says those who believe on him (John 6:29)
Jesus later tells us who the what It means to believe on him.
erily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)
*you say*
Jn. 6:37 absolutely DOES SAY that "he will save".
Or else, what does Jesus mean when He says, "I will never cast out"?
*response*
It means exactly what it says that it will not be because of an action of Christ that we leave but our own.
It is the Father will they Christ does not loose any so Christ will take no action that will cause any to be lost
We see this in John 15:1-11.
*You say*
And, in verse. 39, He says that He will "raise it on on the last day"?
This is clearly about salvation.
*response*
No, I agree that there is talk about salvation, but it is not showing us who will be saved unless you take John 14:12 into account.
As Jesus points out in verse 40 is those who believe on him who he will raise up.
Who did he say those were again?
*You say*
If you're attempting to sneak in the back door and add human works to the equation, then I'm afraid you've missed the theological boat completely.
Response
Nope I am simply reading scripture.
It seems you turned to John 6 because you thought it refuted (Heb 5:8-9)
The bible does not refute itself it only explains itself.
It is your theology that is flawed.
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Is this a lie?
*You say*
Pretty simple...and, most importantly, biblical.
*Response*
please show me were these following statements are in the biblical
1. Those "given" by the Father to the Son do actually believe in the Son.
2. faith is the *sole,* instrumental means of Justification (Keep in mind James 2:24)
*you say
And we KNOW that we are saved if we have FAITH in the Gospel concerning Him.
Response
What do you think the Gospel is and how do you know you are right?
How does what you think it is, compare to what Jesus says it is?
God bless you
I like both James and Mike as teachers.
Love both of these guys! Praying for both of you fighting on the frontlines for the faith. Proud to call you both brothers in Christ
Amen!
Apart from his misunderstanding of monergism, Mike Winger's got some solid theology, but it'd be wrong not to address that issue of soteriology. but only if it's IN LOVE, YOU INTERNET TROLLS.
@@Stanzi18 Lol bro, not sure who you were calling internet trolls, but it sounds like something an internet troll would say 😅 God bless anyway hehe
@@joshuaj.jackson not you lol I just know other people get around to reading these comments as well, so it was just in case one of them had seen lol
@@joshuaj.jackson sorry for the misunderstanding. 🙏
I believe God offers His Grace to all but not all respond to it - Some accept and some reject - People in hell do not go there with God's Grace, they go there having rejected His Grace, because they rejected His Grace
Yes, I don't think anyone's denying that are they?
The divide over "Calvinism" is why some respond and some do not.
@@risingdawn5788 That is part of the debate actually because James White said in the video that the non-calvinist argument meant that everyone received God's grace but only those that had the autonomous faith act would go to heaven. This is not accurate because those who do not choose to have faith, do not receive the grace that is freely offered. So the grace is not given to all, it is offered to all and received by those with faith. Big difference. The argument is foundationally whether faith is a work or not. I think the scriptures are extremely clear that it is not a work. A child could understand them.
@@therealzacharnold
Amen! Well said! 👋👋👋
The unregenerate cannot please God (Romans 8:8).
Debate over
Brilliant answer, wish James White could understand it!!
This is actually a tough topic and worthy of contemplation.
Hi, James - thanks for responding. You seem to have missed the point. 🙂 Mike is saying that receiving something is not working - you have that all back to front. The gift is offered, free - but has to be accepted. Accepting does not give you brownie points with God, it is a necessary rescue from a horrific corruption, judgement and death. Holding on to the lifeline is not a work that saves, it is taking advantage of someone working on your behalf. Paul says this quite simply. Grace is not a work, faith is not a work. Believing Abraham was not working, but believing. Your concept of a God who promises, but then behind His breath, says "But not you, you, you, you ... but I am really sorry you are going to suffer forever, but not really ..." is a travesty of the richness of the mercy, compassion and power of a sovereign Redeemer. His sovereignty created free will, He is not a Deistic God, with a clockwork universe, He is a relational God, wanting a relationship with His children - and this is so far superior to the clockwork God, that it gives Him far more glory - working His will despite the freewill of His rebellious creatures, winning their hearts, not forcing them to love Him - the very antithesis of love, after all. May the God of truth and love guide us all, me included, into all truth, and the true knowledge of God, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the depths of His love, which is the definition of eternal Life, and bring us to the unity of the faith.
When a human perceives a sunset, they see the sun moving below the horizon. But what is actually happening is the earth moving around the sun. When a believer perceives salvation, they see themselves learning about Christ and coming to Him. But what is actually happening is God reaching down from heaven and gifting the believer with the ability to believe. Perspective and experience colors our ideas about the nature of existence. It can be hard to escape our perspective and acknowledge the larger reality.
The earth is flat
@@kbschannel2355 oh boy
It’s actually the earth rotating not moving around the sun
Objective Reality, I'm ot sure why you are talking, as a calvinist you have no freewill to speak for yourself. You have the same control over yourself as a corpse. Nice try though.
@@atyt11 Nice strawman. He has the free will God established by what he ordains, per WCF 3.1.
To be honest, Mike Wingers teaching on this makes a lot more sense. The act of believing is not considered as work. When Abraham believed in the Lord, it was credited to him as righteousness.
Although this is a disagreement within the body, we can all still be brothers and have this discussion. I don't think this issue should divide the church.
the act of believing is not considered a work if you agree with the Doctrines of Grace and a biblical understanding of compatibalistic freedom. But as soon as you espouse the idea of "libertarian Freedom", you have left the possibility... Faith no longer because a hole-hearted "passive action", but rather, a synergistic one whereby your belief and choice coupled with Christ's work accomplish his intended purpose of salvation that he could not do otherwise without your help. this isnt biblical. "it is God who justifies!"
JOHN 6:28,29 ...Then said they unto Him, "what shall we DO that we might WORK the WORKS of God? JESUS answered and said unto them, "this is the WORK of God, that YOU BELIEVE on Him whom He has sent "
( not Jesus believe for you, JESUS said : YOU have to DO that!)
How without this WORK any calvinist is planning on being saved? is beyond me
@@Parks179-h Faith, or believing on God and being saved, is not passive.
“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13, That doesn't sound passive to me. BUT, the confusion here is that calling on the Lord, or having faith, is NOT an act that saves us. People that call on the Lord don't intrinsically deserve to be saved because of what they've done or the faith they have. But God in His grace and mercy and love, has decided and chosen to save those who call on the Lord. He is the only one that can save. He saves those in Christ.
Ephesians 1:4-6 "For he chose *us in him* before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship *through Jesus Christ*, in accordance with his pleasure and will- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given *us in the One he loves.*"
He chose those in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 "Therefore, *if anyone is in Christ,* the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that *in him* we might become the righteousness of God.
"
In Him we are made righteous.
Ephesians 1:13 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. _When you believed_ , *you were marked in him* with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"
You are in Christ when you hear and believe the message of truth, the gospel of salvation.
God's word clearly teaches that, when we believe, we are marked in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and we are made righteous in Him.
Christian_Gamer_Guy the nature of faith itself is passive because it is resting in what has been done on our behalf.
There is an aspect though we’re one much HAVE faith. This is why faith must be a gift, because if faith is something that you can DO, without the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit of God by his grace, then you are saved by your believing, and not, “by your trust in Christ’s work on your behalf”. We are not saved by faith in our faith, but by faith in Christ’s penal substitutionary and justifying work.
You do the action of belief because God NT his grace gives you the spirit who helps you trust in God... otherwise, it would not be a gift but a work.
Christian_Gamer_Guy you add disagreeing with historic Protestant tradition by the way... not just me.
No one can be saved by their own. They must be regenerated by the Holy spirit so that they can make the confession of faith.
1 Corinthians 12:3 "...no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit"
Oh no, the guy from Acts17Apologetics is a Calvinist. Shame
@@TheOtherCaleb read the verse I quoted
@@TheOtherCaleb he is also mod for Sam Shamoun.
And Sam is not a calvinist.
As Mike Winger would say.."This is totally out of context"...listen to the whole talk...
Jann Macdougall What specifically is out of context?
Christ be with you
Both speak nonsense
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 yeah. Non sense.
@@TheLordismyportion I love how when you ask, nobody responds
@@TheLordismyportion best to listen to Mike Mike yourself
James, I don’t understand how you can be a Calvinist. I heard your debate with Michael Brown. Calvinist paint a God which is very concern to protect His Glory at all cost. God to me is nothing like that. What He displayed at the cross shows how His heart is for everyone. To think that He has predestined people for destruction is totally outrageous. How can He say two different things which are contradictory ? Tell me one thing ? How did Abraham believe God way before the Cross since the Holy Spirit was not given? I know why Calvinist theology is so complicated, it is because that is the only way anyone can try to make sense of it because in final analysis, Calvinist theology does not make sense.
In Genesis and Hebrews it says basically Abraham had nothing to offer and “righteousness was credited to him”.
The raising of Lazarus is analogous to salvation. He was dead. He had no way to raise his hand or say a prayer. He had no choice in the matter. And he had no power to resist Jesus's command to come forth, any more than light could have refused to be when God commanded it to be.
Some people hate the idea of monergism because it leaves absolutely no room for pride.
That's an awful analogy. God is not a god-of-force hence Satan and his fallen angels.
@@RomanPaganChurch Preach. Salvation isn't by force. In fact, Jesus compared it to birth. And just as our parents scheduled a meeting with us before conception and asked if we wanted to be born to them so as not to violate our almighty free will, so too God had to convince us to let him be our spiritual parent and make us born spiritually, least the other gods arrest him for free will violation.
At least, that's what I think John 3 is saying to people who place man's free will over God's salvation.
Sinners dead in sin aren't physically dead. Jesus taught to receive eternal life one must eat and drink the bread and water of life. Faith comes first which receives life.
People that obey the gospel by believing it are then freed from sin according to romans 6:17-18. This is the same manner freedom was given to the Israelite slaves in Exodus. They applied the blood then were freed.
Pressing a corpse analogy to the extreme is not wise. Physical death and spiritual death are not the same. Those dead in hell are fully conscious of why they are there. A corpse has no consciousness.
Calvinism reverses the order of salvation by giving life then faith of which even Spurgeon recognized and called it ridiculous saying they were saved already and that they had no need for the cure being cured already.
@reddog9484 what about parable of sower? Why are there 4 kinds of land? Farmer makes or land makes itself?
For those saying Mike’s video was taken out of context-this specific clip of James White’s video does start at an awkward point, however having watched Mike Winger enough to be familiar with his position, both men’s beliefs are accurately represented.
"it's whether man can autonomously determine the success of God's efforts to save him". This statement does not accurately represent Mike.
Love James White, but he’s taking Mike out of context- nowhere in his video does Mike say we earn or work for ANYTHING. He spends a lot of time showing from Romans that Faith is NOT a work-- a Scriptural truth that James and many Calvinist can’t grasp due to their presuppositions about what non-Calvinists believe.
Paul says in ephesians 1 that faith is a gift from God.
@@jasonburlingame6739
No, the gender in Ephesians verse refers to the whole phrase, "For by grace you have been saved," not just the word "faith."
White is amazing at attacking arguments that don’t exist. He is a charlatan. Steer clear.
James' point is summarized with his one question: "What's the distinction?"
Between the lost and those who are saved, what's the distinction, the difference between them? Cause in non Calvinist view, you can't say God's grace, since it's being given to all, the exact same grace to every single person.
Jye Murillo that’s not an accurate description of the non-Calvinist view.
Salvific Grace is for those who believe. Common grace is for everybody- just like in the Calvinist position. The big difference between the two positions is that in the Calvinist view, God’s grace only as for those he unconditionally chose.
In the non-Calvinist position, Grace is offered to all sincerely- but is only made beneficial and effective to those who believe.
And BTW Calvinism can’t really call an unsaved person “lost” because they were all exactly where God wants them, correct?
The whole premise is 100% grace given by God through the act of Christ
Christ be with you
so Jesus was wrong
God bless you
David Andrew Asirvatham We are saved by Grace working through Love.
Right but the question remains, do you accept or reject this free grace?
We're saved by grace through Christ's works .
I like White but I've heard almost all of Wingers videos relating to Calvinism and Whites response is weak to me, and even as a layperson, after every other sentence White said i was thinking what are you talking about? There's no problem here, you're ignoring this verse and that verse and the overall message and reality of scripture. While White is extremely knowledgeable of scripture he can not see that his Calvinist theology has become a lens through which he reads all of scripture which at least occasionally causes him to misinterpret it. Instead of being able to accept the plain reading, whether greek or English, he must complicate it and finagle definitions etc. to arrive at his view. What is the difference between the saved and the unsaved in the end? Their FAITH! It doesn't take away from God nor is it an excuse to boast. But as the scripture says, "these were the FAITHFUL...". God's influence towards our faith should not be underestimated, but he does not owe anything to anybody, but due to his desire to see men saved he will draw and lead men and predetermine circumstances knowing a given outcome but this is all based on foreknowledge. Watch more of Wingers vids on the topic for a fair understanding of the totality of his views and tyre scriptures they are based on. It's related to the issue of pharaohs hardening, it was not ARBITRARY but based on his history and pre-existing hardening. That's probably the best video to start with to start to see the logical and scriptural problems with full 5 point Calvinism.
I don't think you understood the problem brother. White said repeatedly that Winger is confused with what Calvinists mean when they say "works" in relation to the synergist method of salvation.
The question is this, is God's grace sufficient enough to save all those he has decreed to save, or is God's grace not sufficient enough to save all those he has decreed to save?
If you're not Reformed, or a Monergist, then you must conclude because you believe in autonomous free-will that God's grace is not sufficient enough to save. Therefore, there was something better about the person who is saved than person who won't allow God to save them.
In John 3, Jesus rebukes Nicodemus and states that the spirit goes where it wants to like wind, and this is the way it has always been, that you must be born again.
Peace to you.
I’ve heard all of Mike Winger’s videos as well and what he says makes so much more sense to me. I was listening to Dr. White and his debates and agreed with everything he says until I heard the debate on Calvinism and nothing Dr. White said convinced me of his arguments. Someone said in the comments, that Mike Winger explains [Romans 9] well. I attend a Calvinist church and I love it but just can’t swallow the issue of election they hold. I’ve tried for 12 years to understand it and embrace it but haven’t been able to. At best, I felt there was scripture on both sides of the argument that I couldn’t get past. Then I heard Mike Winger and it all made sense.
The main distinction I see between Dr. White and Pastor Mike is one based on scripture: Pastor Mike backs up and establishes all of his points on mongergism vs synergism through scriptural text, whereas Pastor Mike makes no counterpoint that is based on scripture (he seems to be struggling from purely a logic/thought experiment/philosophical mind set). For example, Dr. White never addresses how Romans 3:20;27, 4:1-6; 4:13-16, and Galatians 2:16 and 3:5-6 all establish the contrast of faith with works, justification by faith vs work-righteousness, etc. In essence, by constantly making his claim for autonomous action being the distinction between the saved and the damned, he is essentially saying the scripture is wrong.
@@rollingrockink1 Your claim that as non-reformed or monergistic believers that we must conclude God's grace is not sufficient enough to save everyone because of our belief in autonomous free will isn't accurate.
First off, it's completely counter to the desires of God that he primarily elects a select few to be saved and actively damns others. Our basis for understanding the desire of God comes from Jesus who is the definitive picture of God, whose love is universal, impartial, kind, and desires all to be saved (all of which is identified in 1Jn 4:8; Duet 10:17-19; 2 Chron 19:7; Ezek 18:25; Mk 12:14; Jn 3:16; Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:10-11; Eph 6:9; I Tim 2:4; I Pet 1:17; 2 Pet. 3:9). If we say that God's grace isn't sufficient, then God isn't all-powerful and if He actively damns others then He doesn't love them. However, we have ample evidence that the desire of God is for all to be saved (hence, why Paul identifies that Jesus comes for Jews and Gentiles alike and not just the Jews; Paul is the apostle for Gentiles).
Second, there seems to be this odd assertion that it either has to be free will or destiny; however, the reality is that both run true. Absolutely, the Bible identifies that the promises made by God are always fulfilled, but there is also a consistent status quo for human autonomy and thus accountability (i.e., Matt 7:3-5 and 18:15-17, Lk 12:47-48 and 16:10-12, 1 Tim 6:3-7, and so on). Whenever God moves to enact His will in the Bible, it is never done in an absolute sense, in that there is always a common occurrence of influence wherein the recipient must be convinced to do the Lord's work (i.e., Jonah, Moses, Paul, etc.). Yes, the outcomes always come out according to God's desire in those particular instances, but it occurred because those figures were convinced to enact the Lord's will. Do those individuals bring glory or merit to the fulfillment of God? Absolutely not, the glory always goes to God. Romans 1-2 says it plainly that God handed humanity over to sin because it was what we desired (even though it was counter to God's desire).
Finally, what Calvinism misunderstands is the promises offered in the gospel as it comes to those who are elected and predestined. It isn't that God purposefully pre-chose everyone who would/wouldn't be saved, it's that it's the destiny of all believers to be saved, which again is supported by scripture: "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16).
@@greyknight627 I read the first sentence where I think you meant to say Dr White, and then I stopped reading.
We have nothing to do with our salvation.
Honestly, you'd have to be from a nation of great privilege to ignore the biblical truths here.
Not only that but the amount of pride it takes to assume something you could contribute to the situation would even be worthy enough to count.
You no more chose to accept salvation than Joseph chose to be sold into slavery.
A synergistic believer is "accepting" Christ into his life as Lord.
A biblical believer is acknowledging that Christ IS Lord.
There is no refusing God's will.
These men can be our brother and that's fine. We don't hate them. We harbor no ill toward them. We just need to answer them with God's truth.
I'd change just one thing about your post: We have nothing to do with our salvation _except for providing the sin we need saving from._
Too many Christians have forgotten what salvation is and have divorced their own sinfulness from their need of a savior, so I think it is important to remind them of who every one of us are in relation to God, wicked sinners that deserves the wrath of his justice poured out on us. When we understand how much we've been saved from, we all the more love and appreciate how merciful and gracious our savior truly is.
@@oracleoftroy Absolutely. This was a great addition.
Mike's body language is rather telling.... he's so desperate to prove James White wrong but he can't. I appreciate a lot of what Mike has out there and I've learned from him, but it's sad to see how much he resists this truth. Sorry, Mike, it is totally Biblical.
I enjoyed the respectful and dignified opinion on this Chanel. I am ever so very grateful for Mike Wingers thorough research and Bibel study. It helped me beyond words to strengthen my faith in the Lord and encouraged my daily Bibel reading. God bless him!
And this channel as equally good quality in giving food for thoughts! Thank you for putting yourself out there with your work 🙏 to clarify and support us in strengthening our faith!
The point that James White is missing in correcting mr. Winger is that where does saving Faith come from? The scriptures plainly teach that saving faith is a gift that is obtained by the elect. Mike Winger thinks his faith came from inside him and by the exercise of his free will. But he can only truly believe if God has given him saving Faith. But I believe Mike Winger believes another gospel another Jesus another spirit.
I'm just saying as far as a viewer goes, Mikes video here is totally taken out of context
From the first line it is taken out of context quite literally. It's a very low blow from a guy who mike winger praised as a brother even though he knew they had differences. White seems very prideful and arrogant which seems to come along with alot of strong calvinists,although it is prevalent in all humans saved or otherwise I just see it predominantly in calvinist speakers
@@johnnyceagles yeah I agree for sure. I noticed the difference in attitude, humility versus what seems to be pride, I will definitely be praying for them both
I disagree. Of course James White thinks he's right. So does Mike. That's not pride. That's just having confidence that you've done what is necessary to speak on the subject. Which is what every pastor ought to do.
No. Just getting to the real argument and the real problem with what Mike Winger believes.
Not shocking from James White. Not the most loving debater or critic.
I'm still learning, but my understanding is that, in our salvation, God does everything, but we all have the choice to reject the Holy Spirit's work in our heart; hardening our own heart.
God plant's the Word of God as a “seed” in our heart by people or whatever means He chooses; and as we know, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ. Sometimes it's stolen by the enemy or rejected by us. True faith, then bears fruit. A contrite heart, a hate for sin, a love for God, repentance. He brings us to a place where we can, in truth and faith confess, “Jesus is my Lord and Savior” and empowers us by His Holy Spirit to live under His Lordship.
If we get saved, it's all because of God and He gets all the glory.
If, however, we reject it, not only is it our fault we are headed to hell because of our sins, but also because we rejected the saving faith He was working in us.
All glory to God for the salvation of our souls!
God changes the heart of a sinner and then we choose God. Awakened from dead in sin and tresspas to alive.
Donna Fischer Man reacts to Gods choice to sacrifice His Son. His reaction is either accept or deny. Romans 8:29 clearly state that God foreknew who would choose Him FIRST, then as a result He predestined. Revelation 3:20 and John 7:17 prove of mans free will. Yet God is still sovereign.
@@danielkepler1023 That's right, God knows all (who will and will not accept His gift and submit to Him as Lord) and makes provisions according to what He knows. This is biblical predestination.
@@danielkepler1023 Ah, the word "foreknew" in Rom. 8:29 has NOTHING to do with your assertion that "God foreknew who wold choose Him FIRST..." That's a total misreading of the text.
The text says, "For those WHOM he foreknew..."; it says nothing about God foreknowing stuff ABOUT them. It says God foreknew THEM!
Rev. 3:20 does NOT prove the philosophically speculative definition of 'free will' as 'the power of contrary choice'. This false definition of 'human free will' is found nowhere in Scripture.
Rev. 3:20 says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."
Nothing about human 'power of contrary choice'.
This is an indicative statement about those who "hear His voice," and who, "open the door".
The text says nothing about how fallen human beings come to have faith; only that those who do will be welcomed by the Lord.
Jn. 7:17 is also an indicative statement about "anyone who is willing to do God's will".
It's amazing how many people just read their own, false, definition of 'human free will' into Scripture....constantly.
Ryan Gallmeier Well you would be correct if faith was a work. But faith isnt a work, thus man can chose to have it without adding to the work of the cross.
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“Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” Romans 3:27-28
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Calvinism makes it seem that faith is a gift of God, when the gift is grace. Which comes from a mans choice to have faith. The disciples of John the Apostles such as Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch held this view. I respect Calvin, but i think those that learned from the very apostles are better reference points.
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“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9
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Grace is the gift that saves us, faith is through what we receive such gift. But since faith is not a work, the gift is free. Anyone can have faith. Rich or poor.
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At the end of the day, i have no problem with Calvinist or Armenianist. In my opinion, both have truths but not the entire understanding. They attempt to know in entirety before The Perfect comes, which is Jesus. His ways and thoughts are not your ways and thoughts
It seems like, because Calvinists, Arminianists, synergists, etc, use different axioms to construct their/our worldviews on this topic, it's very difficult to communicate.
Calvinism is a puppet show, Arminianism is a sporting event
@@EricSmyth4Christ good one! p.s. I am a calvinist. I cannot but be a calvinist, I was predestined to be a calvinist.
This is such mind numbing garbage 🙄.
Just believe and listen to the Holy Spirit. This is just people making simple things complicated which has the flesh written all over it.
Glad you can see that brother!! Absolutely mind numbing!! Remember this scripture? Romans 1:22-32
King James Version
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
@@laurenferris5651 not the correct bible verse to quote here, though.
These people talk about how one comes to know christ, while this passage you just quoted talks about people worshipping anything but Jesus and not acknowledging him
The Bible is pretty clear about salvation and it teaches both about God sovereignty and human responsibility.
Why is it so difficult to let our own theological beliefs systems and ideologies be changed by what the Word of God teaches?
Why force our beliefs on the Bible and come up with unreasonable interpretations just to make the text say what we already believe to be true?
I just don't get it
Sin. That's why.
We want to be like God. We want to be in charge. We want his freedom, his power, his seat as judge and king. So we twist scripture to make it say what we want to hear, to elevate man's place and lower God's place and make God bow and submit to our will.
The New Testament is quite clear that human will aka "resposibility" isn't applicable to salvation.
Notice in the thumbnail that, at one point, James is responding to himself responding to Mike. 😂
Is it Dr James White, or "Dr" James White, or Mr James White, based on a fake store-bought phd.
Divine decree? Chapter verse? Also White is taking Winger out of context. But hey, that’s what he does/
Nothing taken out of context, my friend... Winger is in error and White corrected him.
as Charles Spurgeon the Prince of Preachers put it, "So you're asking me what is a Calvinist? He is the one who says, "Salvation is of the LORD."
Christ be with you
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Heb 5:8-9)
God bless you
@TeachingTim
Christ be with you
Calvinists seem to have forgotten to read 2 Peter 1:1-11
God bless you
@TeachingTim I'll go so far as to say Spurgeon (unconsciously) was in some ways a better Lutheran than he was a Calvinist, in that he did a very good job of properly distinguishing between the functions of Law and Gospel.
Please place your maxim where you found it. It is stinking up the room.
Guys, you are all hilarious! One follows Calvin, a second follows Spurgeon and a third follows Luther...?! You really think you made the right choice of all people...??
If one believes that man has to give permission to God to save him,that's the wrong God.
For anyone watching, go watch Mike’s original video. The clips here don’t include the full context of what he says.
Yet, those of us who have watched ALL three seem to be here thanking God for them both, while praying for Mikey.
Why didn't he play what he said before and after? And what video is it?
I noticed that the vid began in what seemed to be mid-statement (always a red flag), so I figured it had to be that, otherwise it would be contradicting everything else I've heard Mike, and Calvary Chapels in general, teach re salvation. Do you have any idea why James White would do that, except to attack Mike because Mike pointed out a flaw in James' theology? Grow up, James, and accept correction like a true man of God .
@@kevinschaefer3945 Correction for what? Mike Winger misrepresented Calvinism. Then when he took questions he glossed over verses that clearly teach Calvinist theology. He even admits he needs to study more and isn’t sure what some verses mean. Dr. White has wrote many books on this topic, had many debates, and dedicated his entire life to studying scripture. Mike makes a video refuting Calvinism but can’t even offer good answers to the verses like John 6:44. I like Mike but he clearly hasn’t thought these things through.
@@Ephesians-rz7zpExactly in what ways was Calvinism misrepresented?
I love both of them.. they both have moved mountains for the faith and the kingdom of God.
I love that they can have this discussion!
"We (man and God) work together so we could be saved".. Yeah that statement is to say to add our work to God's grace.
Men don't saved themselves by their work.
Apostle Paul said that clearly that It's not because of you, but God's grace.
Not only by men's work, but even not because of the men's will.
Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
That's why i stopped listening to non-calvinist preachers.. everytime they teach something about grace, they add men's own works and human's will even without them fully aware about it and when they do that they step out from the teaching of God's grace.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It is God that gives the faith to believe so yes, it is ALL by Grace.
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!””
Galatians 2:21
Righteousness is through righteousness... Righteousness=Almsgiving... wooo
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
Hebrews 10:26 NIV
@@DaleyBwoi you should stop looking at salvation from your own eyes and understand the lengths God went to to save us.
““I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.”
Isaiah 43:25
@@artvanderlay1308 I don't think anyone can fully comprehend with a finite understanding what lengths God went to save us however how do you perceive that my understanding of it is less than yours this is just based on assumptions. I fail to see how this verse is in objection my theology the problem is we have to Merit all of scripture and I can pose many verses that would appear in context to stand in opposition to this verse but the way in which we understand the entirety of the scriptures is you choose god does not choose for you otherwise God it to be blamed for everyone who goes to hell god is to be blamed for Satan falling and Adam and eve eating from the tree, I agree that God is Sovereign over all things but his sovereignty does not dictate your decisions its in spite of your decisions this happen all over scripture where gods will is ultimately accomplished even tho the people fail
One of my pet peeves is when someone assumes that because you land on a different opinion particular theological position that it's because of something you lack in understanding or research or diligence in interpretation these are topics that all of our major theologians differ on all the early church fathers differ on and you see areas even where the disciples debated uncertain perspectives I wouldn't assume that your beliefs is because of a lack of understanding on your part it's a choice of how you rationalize what you see in Scripture overall
Don't base bible with 1 verse.
Do you believe in free will? I see it as God gives us much grace in looking after us and providing opportunities and reasons to believe the gospel, but it's our decision whether we believe or not.
Didn't Eve decide whether to believe God or the serpent? And Adam to believe Eve or God? How can anyone be justly sent to hell if they had no choice whether to believe?
I believe James White holds to the London Baptist confession. Chapter 9 _Of Free Will_ goes into the Calvinist view of man's free will. All the Calvinist confessions assert that man has a free will.
Adam and Eve were in a different position than we are as born sinners. They were good and could obey or not obey God's commands. Eve decided to stand in judgement of God and therefore fell into sin from her pride. However, everyone after them is not able to obey God except He regenerates the heart. Man absolutely has free will but what does that mean? Typically free will means that we can make completely unbiased decisions, this is the secular definition. The Bible teaches that free will is really that man makes decisions according to the persons greatest desire at the time of choice. The problem is that sinners have free will and their will is entirely corrupted by their inherited sin nature from the fall. Without the work of the Spirits regeneration of an individual that person is entirely a God hater. They don't care for the things of God and even their outwardly good works are stained with pride or self-centeredness.
It is good for you to consider that God is the only One that can and does do whatever He pleases to do. God is so completely holy that He crushed His only Son on the cross. God is so completely loving that He sent His Son to die for wretched creations that want NOTHING to do with Him. Consider the fact that faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). Except God saves people, they stand justly condemned in the sight of the Holy God of creation because they didn't want anything to do with their Creator and in fact are such violent rebels that if they could they would kill God, this is what we see at the crucifixion of Christ. I implore you to actually read what Scripture says about man and God. You have way too high a view of mankind and way too low a view of Christ.
@@justinbeer5722 Wait, he sent his Son to die for people who wanted nothing to do with him? Are you a calvinist because I thought they believed in limited atonement.
That's what I'm wondering: how can anyone be justly sent to hell if they had no choice? That would make God unjust
I hope that the LORD keeps you going with whatever is true and I hope he shuts your mouth with whatever is not, same with me
That’s a neat claymore in the back.
It's a beauty!
Paul's thorn- God said my grace is sufficient for you. Grace in this context reveals the nature of the gift- grace to do something- in Paul's case, to endure. Saved through grace, not only an unmerited favour but also the power to hear, to receive by faith. The recipient is not passive but receptive by the gift of grace at work in such a person. In other words Gods grace works in and through
Pauls thorn is persecution. Read the whole chapter. Thats why God didnt take it away because persecution is promised.
It has zero to do with being saved. The context is all within the christian life.
@@JH-hx2cl
The thorn was most likely a physical infirmity. Persecution was mentioned as another example later.
The point is that grace = power. 2Cor12 is contrasting God's power (grace) with Paul's weakness.
1Cor15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Grace is not just power for the Christian life, but the renewing, heart-changing power that brings us into the Christian life.
That's why Paul also says that salvation by grace through faith is not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Same kind of language.
Scripturally, it is all grace. Justification could not possibly occur unless God had already provided the grace (undeserved favor) for it to occur. Works testify in the life of the saved person of God's grace in salvation, but salvation occurs entirely by God, and not by man's will, which is also under God's sovereignty.
After listening to both Mike's and James' position on this (as well as reading John Piper's explanation), I feel like the Calvinist position is the most Biblically sound. It's interesting that many Synergists/Arminians will accuse Monergists/Calvinists of "twisting scripture" to fit their doctrine. But I feel like the most straightforward (but careful) reading of Scripture leads us to the Calvinist position.
Amen! I am amazed at how often they claim that if we just read the Bible in a plain and straightforward fashion, we wouldn't be Calvinists, but then put out tons of videos trying to "de-Calvinize" the Bible. You never see that from our side; the Bible is already "Calvinized".
I think you want to watch this video about RC Sproul accidently casting doubt on St. Augustine's conversion - ruclips.net/video/Q_1FgaJMoFg/видео.html
Thanks Dr White. I've only recently been able to see these truths and fortunately found a reformed Presbyterian church in my small city
Good to hear/read, Alison!
Always remember, as Reformed Christians the bottom line is God's miraculous, powerful, efficacious GRACE ALONE in the salvation of sinners.
That's what we exalt in.
All synergistic groups ultimately end up trampling upon the efficacious nature of God's Grace in salvation; most of them don't mean to do this, but it is evident if you know the issues.
God-speed in your studies of the truth.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
In my case it took 40 years to see the truth. No worries, God is never in a hurry.
SCRIPTURES ABOUT THE ERRORS OF CALVINISM
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
Mark 16:15-16 " And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that BELEIVETH and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Revelations 3:20" Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."
John 11:26" and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Acts 2:38" Peter replied, "Repent(one must repent, theres no preordained repentance one musy repent) and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And YOU WILL receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (not you already have).
Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him(who loves him??... People who have repented and accepted the gospel), who have been called according to his purpose. For those God FOREKNEW(key word here foreknew not foremade) he also predestined(he predestines those he foreknew) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.( key word "he that endure" , this is on your own part)
Matthew 24:31 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.( This is the end of this scripture who are the elect here??... The ones who have endured not the ones God made before they were born as elect. He foreknew however he didn't foremake)
Shalom!
Toyosi Oyejobi so you don’t believe God is sovereign over ALL HIS creation?
@@Jesusmyhopeofglory that's a strawman maam. I wonder how you could deduce that from the scriptures i gave. Of course God is sovereign but he has revealed himself to us and his ways in scriptures.
The scriptures i gave you are clear and i enjoin you to read them all including the whole chapters for what they say not what calvin says
God elected Christ. Everyone who unites themselves with Christ by faith is elected. There is power in the prepositional phrase “in Him” that Calvinists don’t appreciate.
Monergism/Synergism are artificial categories that are irrelevant to Scripture and confuse the issue. Calvinists introduce these categories to win arguments.
Winger is right. The Biblical categories
are merit/grace.
That's silly. People make up words to help clarify concepts. "Monergism" and "Synergism" are just as artificial as "prepositional phrase" or theological terms like "Trinity". We make up words to label a concept so we don't have to give a 1000+ word explanation every time we want to talk about God's grace alone saving (monergism) or God's grace working in cooperation with man to save (Synergism). That's just how language works and if your complaint had any weight, it would equally refute you.
@@oracleoftroy I didn’t just say that the “words” were made up. I said the categories were artificial. Go take time to understand the difference before you label an idea as silly.
@@HealingWord_Psalm107-20What is artificial about the categories? They seem quite apt given that on Calvinism all that contributes positively to salvation is the work of God, including our faith, and on most non-calvinist systems, humans need to provide some quality of their own, maybe with some assistance by God, but not much more, to actualize the offer of salvation. That difference is important enough to justify labeling them. You not liking that those categorical differences are being called out isn't enough to prove that those differences aren't meaningful.
Don't get me wrong, merit and grace are also fine categories to use when discussing this. A robust debate would consider the implications of both of these angles and more. In my experience, non-calvinists reject the monergism/synergism distinction because it too easily reveals the man centric motivation they have for diminishing God's role and raising man's role in salvation.
Apostle Paul clearly didn't give God permission to saved him.. It just happened to him.
I'm not even a Calvinist but I know that even my will to seek God, is a gift of grace! we can't even seek or desire God due to our sinful nature.
Also the early church believed this too. The canons at the 2nd council of Orange are pretty clear. It is not a 'work' as Mike said- but a gift of grace. we do not 'partake' in salvation because we can do nothing to save ourselves.
__Trent affirms the council of Orange-this demonstrates that for 1000 years the early church affirmed the view that Augustin held and Pope Boniface gave it his signature & ecumenical authority. So mike disagrees here with the early church as well as scripture.
"The sixth canon of Orange teaches that in matters of salvation, we cannot make the first move. Any move we make (e.g. belief, will, desire, prayer, etc.) toward God is itself already a gift of God’s grace working in us. In no place does the Council of Trent deny this. *In fact, Trent affirms this very doctrine* in chapter five of session six, and in Canon 3 of that same session, which reads:
Canon 3: *If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.* "
Lol you just literally categorized yourself as a Calvinist. It’s like saying, “I’m not an atheist nor an agnostic, but there is literally not a shred of evidence that God exist”
John 6:44... “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” This is one of the main verses used to uphold the Calvinist/Augustinian view.
Notice that when John 6:44 claims that when God draws us... we “can” come to Christ. “Can” comes from the Greek word “dunatai”... which means potential ability (not inevitable action). Proof of this is when the same word- with the same structure- was used in Matt 3:9, where John the Baptist told the Pharisees, “dont say ‘we have Abraham as our father’, for God CAN raise up children to Abraham from stones.” But did God raise up children from stones... of course not! Because “can” is potential ability... not inevitable action.
Furthermore, what people in your camp like to ignore is context. Jesus said in the end of that chapter that “it is the Spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. My WORDS are spirit and life.” Compare this to Romans 10 when it said, “how will they believe in Him whom they have not heard” and “FAITH COMES FROM HEARING, and HEARING BY THE WORDS OF CHRIST.” So, hearing the words of Christ is definitely the mechanism, the “drawing” of the Father, that makes faith in Christ POSSIBLE for all (when they hear the gospel). John 5:34 is THEE PROOF for this.
In John 5:34, Jesus told the Jews “who were not willing to come to Him in v.40” that, “I say these things that YOU (the unbelieving Jews) may be saved.”
This is called Scriptural consistency. Contextual analysis of a single verse. The Augustinian view is simply not tenable with verses like John 6:44
@@progodspeed2311 ok so I think you ignored what I actually said in light of church history and the canons at the 2nd council of orange. you should read them if you haven't already...if you have then you will come to the same conclusion as me and be in agreement with 1500 years of church history. the canons haven't been abrogated, they still stand have ecumenical authority. if you take issue with what THEY say (not what I say or 'my camp') then you need to take it up with Augustine & TCF ;)
Just read the canons then get back to me
@@Em.G.. Appeal to Authority... a logical fallacy when you dismiss someone’s argument on the basis of appealing to a group/person.
Instead of saying, “the councils said so”, you ought to say, “the councils interpret the passage this way, on the basis of these grounds.” Then it will be logical to say, “the councils said so”
Here’s a claim... faith in Christ is NOT given to you. Romans 10:17 says, “faith COMES FROM HEARING. And HEARING by the WORDS OF CHRIST.” Notice it doesn’t say, “faith is given.” When ANYONES hears the gospel, they can believe. This makes sense where Christ told the Jews who were “not willing to come” to Him that “I say things that YOU may be saved” (John 5:34)
Romans 10 also says, “how will the believe in Him whom they have not heard.” Which is implying that unless one hears the gospel... they cannot come to Jesus. Which makes sense in light of John 6 where it says “no one can come unless drawn” and “flesh profits nothing... MY WORDS are spirit and life” in the same chapter.
I’m saying because of these verses... the councils you appeal to are in error. It doesn’t matter if they have been holding on to erroneous claims for a second or for a million years... error will always be error.
@@progodspeed2311 you decided to reply to my original comment without even looking at the canons smh. You tried to make this into a Calvinist/your team vs us situation.
Again, as I said, if you read them and disagree then take it up with Augustine and church history.
This is not MY opinion, it is Church history :) anyway, I don't debate or like to go back and forth too many times, so peace of Christ be with you brother/sister
@@progodspeed2311 you obviously wanna argue lol. I'm far from illiterate when it comes to Scripture. nice try though. You said the Augustinian view is not tenable in view of John 6:44...and my response again is GO LOOK AT THE CANONS! who even are you to argue with Augustine AND the Canons and the whole of church history LOL
obviously you know better that Augustine, the canons, Trent etc. ok scholar! LOLLLLL
you're literally trying to argue with me over my agreement with the canons haha go away
The exodus is a direct representation of Us and Christ.
“So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.”
Hebrews 3:19 ESV
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
Romans 1:16 ESV
What need is there for the gospel if God has to specifically open the hearts of certain individuals....is it really the Word that has power? Certainly NOT! This is where Calvinism is so wrong.
The Word has power to bring life to ALL! there are none who seek HIM, so God seeks US....if we respond to HIS call, we will be saved! Gods grace is the fact that we even have a choice because we don’t deserve one and we’re destined for death.
“do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,”
Hebrews 3:8 ESV
The Bible is full of free will and I chuckle when calvinists say “show me where it says “”free will”” in the Bible.” Does the Bible also talk about nuclear fusion? But we know it’s a thing right?
Calvinism is so far from the truth
_"What need is there for the gospel if God has to specifically open the hearts of certain individuals."_
What need is there of a gospel if man doesn't need a savior because he can same himself?
^
Hence the new covenant where God doesn't write His law on tablets of stone but on the heart.
The only way Dr White could be any better is if he came to the Presbyterian side ... 💦👶🏻..... muhahahahah !
Regeneration precedes faith
Lol
I can’t even tell what Mike is trying to say because James cuts him off every 2 seconds...
just go watch his videos
bob polo you mean before James did a response to a response to a response? Yeah, I did after I wrote that...
@@defiance1790 cool
He's basically saying that it's wrong to imply that the synergistic way of understanding salvation means that man is also saving himself along with God. Dr White's refutation of this is that synergism's claim is that God is trying to save everybody, but only those who believe end up saved because they righteously chose to believe while the unrighteous did not. The problem with this is that it assumes that the person had faith because they were humble enough to believe, but the biblical claim is that God reaches within us and grants us repentance and faith even though we're prideful. We receive faith through the grace of God. It's His gift to us, not our gift to him.
Falcon I’m guessing you’re a Calvinist jumping up to defend James White?
There is nothing wrong with responding to someone as long as you allow someone to complete their explanation before you respond. Cutting someone’s explanation in half and responding to that and then moving onto the next point should look suspicious to anyone.
There are multiple verses to support their (Calvinism & Arminism) view or key points but let's sum up this way, in a broader sense or quick conclusion.. The Bible says we are "Spiritually dead" now, how can a dead man do something to be made alive or regenerated? First of all he had to be made alive because a dead man cannot hear or respond. The same is true spiritually. If we are dead in our sin, as the Bible teaches we cannot respond to the gospel call and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. We must first be made alive. At the heart of this doctrine of election the answer to the question is: why does one believe the gospel and other does not? Is it because one is smarter, has better reasoning capabilities, or possess some other characteristics that allows him to realize the importance of the gospel message? Or is it because of what God does something unique in the lives of those whom he saves? If it's is because of what the person believes does or is, then in a sense he is responsible for his salvation and has a reason to boast. However, if the difference is solely that God does something unique in the hearts and lives of those who believe in Him and are saved, then there is no ground of boasting and salvation is totally a sovereign act of God (see John 11: 43) A good example of Jesus raising Lazarus. Salvation is something He does which enables us to believe the gospel call, not something that comes as a result of our belief.
This fact will definitely crush down many proffesing Christians but it is what it is. He does everything according to His will and mercy Psalm 115:3.
Am a sinner saved by His Grace and mercy and not by my will Amen.
Amen!
So often they view man as not being a creature that completely and wholeheartedly despises God by nature. Just look at the world and it's clear what's in the natural human heart and it sure isn't a desire to know who God is.
I see the belief of arminianism to be a matter of pride, they fundamentally cannot consistantly believe that everything comes from God and all thanks for it belongs to Him. A clear way to see that faith must come from God is whether God is the source of all truth or not, if he is then if your having faith is true than by necessity it has come from God else not all truth is from God. I don't think any Christian would say that there's truth outside of God so a simple argument like this should clearly show that God should be acknowledged and thanked for what he has given you but their pride keeps them from accepting that. I pray that the Lord humbles them that they might know him better and worship Him for all he does.
A blind man can’t see unless someone gives him sight.
A deaf man can’t hear unless someone opens his ears.
This is the state of Man
It is done for us.
Grace is given. Us being able to know God is because he allowed himself to be known.
I’m with you 👍🏾
You just made a false equivocation fallacy, which I see that is very very very prevalent among reformed thinkers like yourself. You defined being "dead to God" in Ephesians 2 to the physical death that all life on earth experience. They cannot be defined in like terms. Reasons are below:
1.) People that are dead to God still have a conscience that accuses them of right and wrong, which Romans 2:14-16 claims that this is the very basis on which God judges humanity (particularly those who never heard God's Word). Romans 2:15 and Acts 17:26-27 even teaches that they can act on this and find God even if they never hear of Him by name. Acts 17:26-27 literally says that anyone can "grope" for God like a blind man, and STILL find Him.
2.) Romans 1:18-20 shows how every man has a general revelation of God revealed to them through nature. It literally says that God made these things "evident to them."
3.) Matt 10:14 and Hebrews 10:26 teach that those who hear the gospel and reject it will receive a heightened punishment far worse imaginable, worse than the standard punishment. It doesn't make sense to heighten the severity of someone's punishment if its impossible to respond to it. It's only consistent when God increases their punishment when they could've responded to it with their increased knowledge of the gospel.
Therefore, if being dead to God is the same as physical death, then they shouldn't be able to convicted by their conscience, they shouldn't be able to perceive God through nature, and they most certainly shouldn't even be able to listen to gospel... let alone be commanded to obey it.
QED being dead to God is not equivalent to saying that they cannot respond to God... there are just too many passages to suggest otherwise. Final proof is John 5:34, where Jesus told Jews who ultimately did not receive Him (v.40), "... I say these things to you that you may be saved."
@@progodspeed2311 His comment wasn't at all a false equivocation. The only way you can prove it is is by proving that spiritually dead people can do what is spiritual. If physically dead people can't take part in the physical world than spiritually dead people can't take part in the spiritual world. In other words you aren't arguing against him but rather the scriptures themselves which have used talked of spiritual death and are now saying back at the Word of God that the writers used an incorrect phrase because spiritual death doesn't mean spiritual death. The burden is on you to prove the writers analogy to be incorrect and quoting verses that talk of man's obligation and knowledge that he should choose spiritual things does not prove that man by nature wants to choose spiritual things which is the point of being spiritually dead. In other words your argument was an equivocation fallacy itself.
@@bat-stranger3067 Romans 4:5 says, “... but to Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.” It doesn’t say to Him who justifies the “godly” who believes.
So, the notion that you must be spiritual to believe is a FLAT OUT contradiction to Romans 4:5, where it says that the ungodly is justified through his faith. All the Bible says is that you can’t live to God (that is LIVING spiritually) while being dead to God.
Mike Winger misrepresented Calvinism in his video and didn’t address the fundamental texts of Scripture that was brought to him.
It really seems to boil down to:
Do we receive grace through having faith? Or do we receive faith by the grace of God?
"Faith is a gift"
ephesians 2:8-9
faith is a gift from God
if we all have faith that can save, it is your autonomous choice that got you the grace and salvation...
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith, "AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES", it is a gift of god, not of works lest any man should boast. Even our faith is a gift of God. When you come to understand these terms it really is humbling and awe inspiring that he would choose us for salvation. How much more so now, being chosen by God, that we should serve him.
God delegated to mankind the ability to make moral choices. He left Adam and Eve in the garden with a choice. We can choose for or against Him and live with the consequences. God does the saving, we do the choosing. Calvinism distorts the revealed and declared character of God: "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowldege of the truth." Calvinism sets that statement on its ear along with other principles of the bible.
@@shorelanderrealty We are under the New Covenant, friend. Adam was under works; We are of Grace. By Grace are ye saved, through Faith in CHRIST, not of him who wills nor him who works, but of GOD.
Faith itself is not a gift of God. Salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God. This is a favorite misinterpretation by fatalistic Calvinists.
@@aaronfisher3003 That's not really the issue. The issue is that it is weird to agree with the Calvinist that God's gift is (salvation by grace through faith) and then deny one or more of (God gives the salvation), (God gives the grace), (God gives the faith). Since specifically faith being a gift is denied, how does that comport with scripture that teaches that everything we have is a gift (e.g. 1 Corinthians 4: 7) and more specifically, that faith isn't something we author, but Christ (e.g. Hebrews 12: 2).
Mike Winger is correct that the whole thing is a gift, but his insistance that faith is something that originates in us seems inconsistent with scripture when we find that not only is the whole of salvation by grace through faith a gift from God, but each part originates with God (not man) as well, thus faith (or any other piece of salvation) is not something that man produces to merit the gift of salvation that they may boast.
@@oracleoftroy Jesus being the author and perfector of the faith (Hebrews 12:2) in no way implies a believers' faith is not a freewill response. If faith is purely a gift from God, why did Jesus repeatedly rebuke the disciples for their lack of faith? Was Jesus rebuking them for not having something that only He could give?
Mike's got some good stuff, but the bottom line is that he consistently misunderstands or misrepresents Reformed theology on these points. He defines his terms as he chooses and then fails to truly engage with the Reformed tradition because he doesn't show that he understands *their* definitions. Where this gets even more frustrating for me is when I see so many Christian brothers and sisters who are absolutely in love with this guy and consequently often fail to either recognize where he may be mistaken or practically refuse to believe that he could be mistaken.
We are saved by grace through believing the gospel. Believing is contrary to working. Belief isn't a work that we do, but believing is something that men must do.
Christ be with you
What do you think the Gospel is? (Luke 9:22-24)
Shouldn't we be believing Jesus Christ (2 John 9)
God bless you
Claiming that men, fallen in Adam (being spiritual children of the wicked one), can conjure up Saving Faith within themselves [out of the cauldron of their own "libertarian free will"] is making faith a "work" of fallen man...rather than being a gift from God, infused into the sinner by God's GRACE ALONE.
THAT is why the Reformed claim that all synergistic groups make belief a "work" of man.
Ryan Gallmeier
Christ be with you
Faith comes from hearing (Rom 10:17)
Jesus tells us calling him Lord is we don’t do as he says. (Luke 6:46-49)
No one gets saving Faith by themselves but by abiding in Christ and that is only done by keeping his commandments. (John 15:1-11)
God bless you
@@MrKev1664 Hearing the Gospel call is the instrumental means by which sinners come to believe (Rom. 10:17); however, this is the EXTERNAL MEANS, and no one is able to come to faith simply by hearing the Gospel.
Something else...something else very important must accompany the EXTERNAL CALL (aka. the "General Call") of the Gospel in order for any sinner to believe it: God's DRAWING [by Grace and the power of the Holy Spirit].
This can be called the INTERNAL CALL (aka. the "Effectual Call").
God Himself, in the Effectual Call, by His Grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, actually infuses Faith into those whom He chose in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:3-14).
Jesus taught that the Father would give a people to the Son, and as a result, they would actually come to the Son; that is, "believe in Him" (Jn. 6:37).
Jesus also taught that it was in NO ONE'S power to conjure up faith within themselves (Jn. 6:44), but that the Father must first do the effectual drawing if anyone was to come to saving faith in the Messiah.
Which means: if you have faith in the Son/Messiah...you should PRAISE GOD for the faith that He Himself gave you. You should thank Him everyday for bringing you to the Son.
However, if anyone thinks they conjured up faith within themselves (like Mike Winger does), then they cannot give God thanks, or praise for His glorious, miraculous, efficacious GRACE...and, they might as well thank and praise themselves because they were better than all the others who could have also conjured up faith within themselves, but chose not to.
Hope this helps.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@ryangallmeier6647
Christ be with you
As I said no one does it alone, of course, we need God.
What forms does Gods aid come in?
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:14-17)
Jesus Christ chose this as his method of Spreading the Gospel.
o ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matt 28:19-20)
None of us knows if we are amonst the elect
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:9-11)
God bless you
In the RUclips clip, note James White's false use of mathematical percentages to quantitatively render that which is qualitative.
When math is used to depict the idea of synergism, then the knee jerk tendency is to sum up your part + God's part and arrive at 100%.
Since you tend to give credit to God alone, you will tend to give 0% to yourself and 100% to God.
This now appears as if you do nothing and God does everything and it appears to prove monergism.
The question that needs to be asked of White is from does he assume the liberty to build math equations to denote the qualitative ?
God's work and man's response are two separate categories, and hence one should not fall into the trap of trying to sum up efforts of God and man mathematically
They are categorically different.
James White himself has told the Muslims that there is no analogy on earth for the Trinity (be it math or using natural phenomenon)
Yet he happily uses up math analogies for synergism.
He is a big talker about 'being consistent'. Yet is he consistent now ?
Talk about a point going right over your head
Good point. Watch out, you've angered the calvinists and are threatening their false doctrine.
I am so disappointed, you were highly recommended and right out of the gate you insult Catechism.
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and NOT ONLY FOR OURS but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." - 1 John 2:2
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for ALL PEOPLE, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for ALL PEOPLE." - Romans 5:18
"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL PEOPLE, and especially of those who believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10
I just started listening to Mike winger, I got halfway through this video of him and came here to hear james white say exactly what I was thinking the whole video lol it seems like if it weren't for that one phrase "free will choice" Mike Winger might be a calvinist. God knows everything... God made the world.. God did it all.. Calvinism has just always made sense to me because it supports the truth that God is all-mighty and all-knowing and I really think that somewhere deep down non-reformed brothers and sisters know it as well, but they just get caught up in the phrase "free will". But anyway God bless'em and keep telling it to them straight.
@jsea321 We have free will to sin not to choose God.
So it makes sense to you that God predistined people to hellfire? That is God to you? That would be very immoral. To let man be born in sin and that the only way for them to be saved would be if God wants them to. That doesnt sound like the God of the bible at all. "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son so that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everylasting life"
If calvinism were true this promise would be a lie.
God reaches out to us first with his love and grace, but we have the free will to either believe and accept that grace or to disregard that and sign our own damnation.
For love there must be free will. Love doesnt exist without free will. God is a God of love and relations. He wants to have a relationship with us. He wants us to love him. We cant do that without free will. Otherwise he might aswel have made pre programmed robots. But again then it wouldnt be love
Calvinism isn't biblical sorrt
@@menknurlan whosoever believe in Him that were drawn by the Father, unless he wouldn't believe.
John 6:43-44 (KJV) "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, MURMUR NOT AMONG YOURSELVES.
NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Men already in condemnation before God revealed His grace through His Son.
John 3:17-18 (KJV) "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Look at the word "ALREADY" at verse above.
@jsea321 we're all would NOT to choose God if the Father wasn't draw us to His Son.
John 6:44 (KJV) "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER which hath sent me DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day."
We were all in condemnation before God draw us to His Son so we can believe.
John 3:18 (KJV) "He that believeth on him is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
The word ALREARY explaining The word "For God sent not his Son into THE WORLD TO CONDEMN THE WORLD; but that the world through him might be saved" (verse 17).
The world is in condemnation already, but that's why Jesus come so that the world through him might be saved, they which "DRAWN BY THE THE FATHER TO CHRIST.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV) "BUT OF HIM ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (KJV) "FOR YE SEE YOUR CALLING brethren, how that NOT MANY WISE MEN AFTER THE FLESH, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, HATH GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE."
That's why we cannot say that we believe because we understand the Gospel by our understanding, but rather it was given to us.
The Gospel is a foolish thing according to our flesh mind, so it would be automatically be rejected by our flesh mind.
That's why so many reject it, but Christians do accept it. Why?
Because the Father draw us to Jesus.
John 6:45 (KJV) "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. EVERY MAN THEREFORE THAT HATH HEARD, AND HATH LEARNED OF THE FATHER, COMETH UNTO ME."
Noted that word "EVERY MAN", not some, but EVERY MAN that heard the Father.
Now how many people have heard the gospel but only some that come to Jesus?
Mike's take on calvinism is unbiblical, but regardless it's tiring waiting for him to make a point as he tip toes around, trying not to be offensive. He should be more direct so it doesn't take an hour to state a position.
Keep in mind, folks, James and Mike are brothers and this is a family discussion. 🙌
Synergism is stupid, taking away Gods glory alone
What you really mean is that - Thinking that "synergism" takes away from God's glory is stupid
God only glories in puppet shows
Extremely well explained by Dr. White
Why are Calvinists such unpleasant people?
Pride?
They do not have the love of God in their teachings as central. I have had some Calvinist pastors confess as much to me when I brought in up to them. The Westminster Confession does not center on the love of God, even though the Scripture does (1 Corithians 13, 2 Cor. 5, 1 John, etc.) Also, Calvinists don't seem to take the warnings of Scripture to heart, from what I can see. Perhaps this leads to a false sense of confidence and more. We must all stay humble. If we are humble first, our confidence before God is more likely to be real. We don't just give live by these words (assent), but by actually doing them. Maybe Calvinists need to be reminded of these things.
Why are anti-Calvinists such unpleasant people?
This guy only takes tiny snips of Mike's video at a time. So people can't hear the context... This guy is clearly a Calvinist 🤦♂️
Just be consistent, JW. Tell the lost there is nothing whatsoever they must do or believe to be saved. If God loves them. If God wants them. He’ll just save them. 🤷🏻♂️
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”
Romans 9:14-16 ESV
Bro... why don't Calvinist ever post verses in light of their context. You must consider two things when reading Romans 9:
1.) "Though the twins were not yet born and HAD NOT DONE ANYTHING GOOD OR BAD, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, '.The older will serve the younger'” (Romans 9:11-12). Look closely to how God elects... look how he looks at these people... He looks at them having not done anything good or bad. In simpler terms... their sinful or righteous actions were not taken into account when God was considering who to elect; therefore, it has nothing to do with their salvation or damnation. This must not be confused with reformed doctrine of "unconditional election", where God is choosing from among sinners who've already sinned.
2.) "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants" (Romans 9:8). The children of flesh are the Jews who think they are the true sons of Abraham by virtue of physically descending from him... whereas the true children of Abraham are those who by virtue of faith (Gal 3:7) are chosen. Romans 9 is all about God having the right to choose among the people of faith rather than the direct descendant of Abraham.
This flows with Romans 9:30-31, where it talks about how it is the Gentiles- who didn't seek to attain righteousness- who have attained God's righteousness, whereas the Jews didn't. Romans asks why? Because they did not pursue righteousness by faith (v.32). The chapter never eliminated the possibility for the Jews to come to faith.
@@progodspeed2311 I never said I was a Calvinist, also this passage emphasizes God’s sovereignty and his ordinance over what happened to the Jews that rejected Christ, and how he elected Gentiles outside of supposed Israel. These are true “Israelites” according to salvation. Yes this is talking about salvation, are you kidding me? Every chapter before and after chapter 9 are about salvation. Read the context I don’t know what point you’re trying to make honestly, it’s not making any sense
We are DEAD in our sin so how can I say I have done anything? No one comes unless God Draws,Its very clear.🧐Just learned about Election and predestination from RC Sproul.It was so wonderful to get it!
Shouldn't you learn from Jesus and not RC Sproul?
@@laurenferris5651 That's like saying "Apostle Paul thought us the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
And then you saying, " Shouldn't you learn from Jesus not from Apostle Paul?"
In 1 Cor 3:10 Paul says, that he Paul like a skilled builder laid the foundation which is Jesus Christ. RC is not like Paul in terms of authority of writing scripture, but he is also skilled in laying foundations and walls of biblical truth.
@@tomk4984 RC taught many false things; I would not advise listening to him. He is not comparable to Paul, and he ended up deceiving many into believing Calvinism is what the Bible teaches, when it should be obvious that it doesn't.
You should read John 12:32, and know that there is no person alive that God is not drawing to himself.
Ephesians 1 says that those who are in Christ are predestined to be holy and blameless in His sight. It's talking to and about the faithful who are *IN* Christ Jesus, as Paul says in verse 1. He then tells us in verse 13 that we, or anyone, is put into Christ when they hear the truth of the gospel and believe, and then we are sealed with the Spirit. That's how we become one of those who are predestined for the adoption of sonship. Nowhere does it say that certain people are elected or predestined TO BELIEVE, which is what calvinism teaches...
I beg you to run from Calvinism, it is not what the bible is teaching, and if followed consistently, it shows a different god that is not the God of the bible.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 In John 12:20 Who is Jesus talking to? Greeks. The Greeks came and said they wanted to talk to Jesus.
So when Jesus said I will draw ALL people to myself, he means people from all kinds of tribes and nations. Because Jesus earthly ministry was only to the Jews.
All doesn't always mean every single person on planet earth, is does sometimes but we can only figure out by context. We know this from practical daily use of the English language. If I'm talking to my group of friends and say "You're all invited to go to lunch together". I'm not saying every single person on earth is invited, but I mean all people of my friends are invited.
Also if everyone on earth was drawn then they would be saved. Since John 6:44 says those that the father draws He will raise up on the last day.
So if everyone was drawn then everyone would be raised up to eternal life.
I wish you listened to the whole video though.
I think the question Dr. White should consider is IF NO ONE WANTED TO BE SAVED, why did God choose to elect so few since they all did not want a relationship with God? His question is far easier to answer in a world where there is free will, it makes the possibility that some will not choose God even if God's desire is for all to be saved.
How do you know God only elected a few? The Bible indicates that in innumerable multitude will be saved, and personally I believe that the final tally will have a majority of people who ever existed saved. I think you are importing non-Calvinist assumptions into your question.
@@oracleoftroy Jesus says that broad and wide is the path to destruction and that narrow is the gate that leads to life, few finds it. This means, going by calvinism, that God will only save a few while letting the majority perish.
@@LaCréé.e I agree with the passage; in fact, going by Romans 1-3, I would say that so few find it that the number is zero. Salvation isn't by man's effort to find the path, but by God who is mighty to save. And God will save as many as he wants to.
Its public record, it is the facts!
Calvin was a murderer, torturer and you call it him having a problem with anger that we all have to deal with?
Before Calvin it was Augustine who invented the Calvinist "Election" Heresy.
It does not teach unconditional election. The only condition that God puts on salvation is that the person receives it because they desire it and THEY put their faith in Him.
But wait I almost forgot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you take every time the scriptures says "World" which is 20 times and twist and force it to say Elect
If you take every time the scriptures says "Whoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect
If you take every time the scriptures says "Whosoever" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect
If you take every time the scriptures says "All" which is 16 times and twist and force it to say Elect
If you take every time the scriptures says "Everyman" which is 6 times and twist and force it to say Elect
Then yes Calvin got it right. and Reformed Theology is true! WINK WINK
Even the cult of the Mormons and the Jehovah Witnesses could take twisting lessons from the Deformed Theology pretending to be Christianity.
TRUTH IN LOVE
Mike Winger is very confident in how wrong he is.