Not only that, but even after all this time playing him, he's still collaborating with the filmmakers on how to do his character right. That's commitment.
“Though these games are traumatising, and sometimes physically harmful” I feel like you may be downplaying how harmful these games are considering the vast majority of people who are made play them end up dead in horrific ways
Idk man, locking a naked man in a room with broken glass on the floor, coating him in flammable jelly, poisoning him, and giving him a candle, and saying "good luck" is pretty murder if I've ever seen murder.
Versus the many, MANY others which are almost nigh impossible to do and are also just practically murder at that point, and I say many others, not just some or most of which are simple but still technically the guy leaving them in a situation where dying is very much imminent thus it’s still murder. “hASn’T KiLLeD AnYonE” my butt lmao
@@SCARFACE_805 I miss Saw 1-3 John when Hoffman didn't exist and there was no excuses for him. It's so clear when they started making retcons to the character and it was obvious from Saw 1-3 that Jigsaw was full of shit when it came to his logic. Now it's "oh he was so noble he really DID want to change people, it was all his APPRENTICES who broke the rules"
John claims he’s not a murderer because his traps kill his victims. However, John built the traps with the intention of killing the victim if they lose the game. He wants his victims to reevaluate their lives, but he does it while having murderous intents.
@@Sasha-vb3mh John demonstrated to be way more effective than the police. Criminals will stop their actions if they fear death at the first moment they're unconscious or just alone.
Another hole in John’s philosophy is that he regularly uses innocent family members of his victims in his tests. Eric Matthews’s son, Jeff’s wife, and Lawrence Gordon’s family are all examples of this. These people 100% DID NOT deserve to be part of his games. In addition, John is also willing to straight up kill people who survive his games if they did not complete them in the way that he intended. The most obvious example of this is when he leaves Adam to die at the end of the first film, despite Adam surviving his game. John is a deeply delusional man. And this is reflected in his philosophy
That's not even the bad part. Why are Gordon and Adam playing the game? What did they do wrong? Gordon didn't cheat on his wife and Adam was a Private Investigator. So they needed to learn a lesson about doing their jobs?
@@maskedman5657I think it’s because Tapp and Singh were getting close to him and so he used Gordon and Adam (who were also both being investigated and/or assisting Tapp) to lead them down a rabbit hole that would also lead away from John (John gives Hoffman Gordon’s pen light in a Saw V flashback helping to establish this). Ultimately, everyone involved in Saw 1 was a flawed person (other than Gordon’s family) and so using these flaws as a twisted justification for a game that would also work as a means of getting the Cops off his trail is in character for John as he has done similar things throughout the franchise even past 1. In his mind, he is a caring and compassionate person (especially to Amanda and maybe in some instances, Hoffman and Gordon and anyone who survives his Traps/Games) and while he has been screwed in his life many times unjustly, he uses these experiences to validate his ways of murdering people but in the end, he’s just a selfish, judgmental and hypocritical Man with many sob stories who can’t see his own flaws. So, he’s a Narcissist.
Lmao, true dat man! That "disguise" with the backwards cap and hoodie is ICONIC 😂😂😂, more films should include flashbacks where the character in focus rocks the ball-cap and hoodie combo, cuz man is it such a simple and fucking hilarious yet somewhat logical thing include in ANY film (like idk what it is man, but the fact that a disguise where you literally just throw on a hat and hoodie is so simple/stupid in the context of a movie or show that whike your watching a character use said disguise you'd naturally assume that it wouldn't work whatsoever IRL, yet in reality a simple disguise like that WOULD probably work pretty damn well when trying not to stand out around people who have never seen you. Like idk man that contrast in logic between reality and the logic you follow when watching a film is just hilarious in this particular situation since the change in context between reality and the film's reality completely changes your expectations on the disguise's success despite the fact that it works in the film and would most certainly work IRL, yet because your watching it happen via a movie you think it's stupid and unrealistic yet life is actually that simple and unrealistic in this situation. Like idk maybe I'm not conveying what I'm trying to say properly but the fact that reality can be just as simple and stupid as an "unrealistic" detail in a movie is just fucking hilarious to me!!! 🤣🤣🤣 (I really hope someone is able to understand what I'm trying to say here, cuz honestly I don't really understand it myself, but basically that expectation of something when done in real-life being more complicated than what a movie shows, yet turning out to LITERALLY be just as simple as the Movie showed it being is FUCKING HILARIOUS, to me atleast, and I hope I'm not the only one who thinks so or the only one that understands my explanation on why I find it hilarious, otherwise I'm fucked and probably crazy/stupid or both 🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣
that's the point, many villains especially those in real life have alluring personalities that pull u further into their ideology and start to even believe it or at least not shame the belief in said ideology no matter how grotesque it is the actor playing jigsaw has been performing this possibly the best in cinema history "a leader has to believe in his ideals so powerfully that they seem insane, as that's the only way their followers too would believe"
The Saw franchise is one of the most convoluted & messy series I've ever seen but also it's very entertaining to watch. John Kramer was a great villain
The timeline stopped making sense like 5 movies ago yet they keep retconning new stuff in with each new movie making it even less-sensical which is funny af.
So i watched the first Saw the other week, and noticed in a flashback that his cancer is affecting his brain. The specific areas of the brain were the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for inhibition control, impulsivity, and emotional regulation. That being said, his sickness could have made his psychotic tendencies worse as he literally couldn't control himself.
it’s very common for patients with certain types/stages of brain cancer to have complete personality changes so it’s an interesting theory. I think it would at the very least make him prone to delusions. course im no doctor but it’s a cool idea
I find the concept of Jigsaw pretty interesting. He genuinely thinks he is helping people, but we see his actions are still evil and hypocritical. Like they said in saw 2, "putting a gun to someones head and forcing them to pull the trigger is still murder." It doesn't matter what John says, what he does is blatant murder. It doesn't matter if everyone has a chance to escape, or if they died only to his traps, he is still killing them, no matter how much he claims to want to help them. It's ironic that John claims to despise murderers, but is blind to being just as bad as those people he hates.
The problem isn’t about John thinking that he never killed anyone. It’s fine for a psychopath like him to be delusional. The problem is that the directors, writers and actors themselves in real life keep claiming that John never killed anyone.
John Kramer has a sinister charisma that makes no sense because he's just an incredibly intelligent creep with a warped moral compass. Tobin Bell is just that magnetic and compelling of a performer.
I think that Tobin Bell's natural charm is one of the big reasons that people think you're supposed to actually believe him when he says he isnt a murderer
Doesn't he make some traps where multiple people are outright competing for survival? And some where the people in peril are at the complete mercy of someone else to save them? The 'everyone can survive my traps bro, they just need that will2live' line is bull
To be kind to John, many of those later games aren't made by John himself, but instead by his apprentices, which may influence their desires to do more harm than even John intended.
@@MrNiceVoice Amanda's game involved cutting a guy open to get a key and that guy was given no chance of survival at all and this was done by John himself no one else.
@@Immolator772 he died in the third movie and the movies afterwards show multiple scenes confirming that he left behind plans and instructions for future games did you even watch the movies mate?
I think the ultimate example of John's methods being flawed is through his own apprentices. Each one either never fully believed in what he did or took advantage of the position they had. While Logan had little involvement, his game in the 8th film was purely an act and revenge and led to pointless deaths to get to the man he wanted, who he flat out murdered. Hoffman only took part in these games because he was blackmailed by John, and he clearly gets a sadistic pleasure out of seeing people go through these trials. Not to mention how many murders he commits in the 6 and 7th films. Amanda just loses faith in John's methods by Saw 3, sure she was blackmailed by Hoffman but the doubt was clearly still there and i imagine the events of Saw X had something to do with leading her to making unwinnable traps. Gordon we know the least about, but the fact that he seems to have had little involvement in most of the traps and kept his involvement the most secret tells me he wanted to just be done with it all and move on, especially by the time he killed Hoffman.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. The people who passed John's tests didn't become better people, they became more jaded, bitter and sociopathic. Amanda eventually relapsed and became disillusioned with John's methods, which is why she partly put people in unescapable traps: Nobody changes. Hoffmann initially killed out of revenge, and then he was adopted as an apprentice. Jigsaw told him to stop feeling remorse for the deaths he had a hand in causing with their games, and Hoffmann deteriorated into a serial killer. Logan starts off as a war veteran who suffers from PTSD and makes a mistake while performing as a medical examiner. John takes advantage of his vulnerability to recruit him to his cause, and Logan eventually descends into making an inescapable trap to enact revenge against a corrupt cop, contrary to Jigsaws teachings. Gordon Lawrence is probably the closest to being the apprentice John desired, but even then he is so mentally unstable from his experiences that his wife and child leave him, so its not like winning the game made him a better husband and father. The whole reason Gordon was in that trap to begin with was partly because he took his family for granted. So of the four people we know of who passed John's tests and became his apprentices, 3 out of 4 became worse human beings who did not even adhere to John's philosophy, and the remaining one was a partial success at best, adhering somewhat to the philosophy but becoming unable to act as a father and husband to his kids. I'd also argue that anyone who truly appreciates life wouldn't endanger the lives of others by putting them in life or death situations, but that's another discussion.
I'd ask how Amanda was supposed to retrieve the key from that man's stomach without cutting him open when you say none of John's game was used to assure the death of any participant. Induced vomiting, perhaps. But let's not pretend John gave everyone a fair chance at survival, especially when their lives were in the hands of others.
I would believe that John truly believes "killing is distasteful" I'd Saw X didn't exploit one glaring contradiction to that claim: John FANTASIZED that the pickpocket lost the vacuum trap, as opposed to succeed. This implies his instinct to inflict maximum punishment on all contestants. By nature, he IS a killer.
Yes, there is a certain vindictiveness and bitterness to Jigsaw's mentality. He's dying, so he's bitter that everyone else doesn't appreciate life as much as he think they should.
@@JoeKrzcyz Yeah his real reasons for trapping people are getting back at people who crossed him and self righteous "punishment" of people not living their lives the way he wants.
Just finished a Saw marathon last week, perfect timing for this to come out! Honestly for me what makes John such a great villain, is that there’s some nuggets of truth with what he’s saying, but none of that condones the absolute horrible traps he puts people in in order to manufacture his form of “rehabilitation”. He’s like the epitome of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”
@@sam-ht6qvabsolutely insane how none of your points make sense, like why the fuck Taliban is in there all of the sudden ? And also "the road to heaven is paved with the blood of sinners." is such a cringy edgy line like I can't lmaoo, embarrassing really. And also just realized this, but Taliban would've agreed with your "gospel truth" which is the funniest irony if I ever see one, but then again I don't know if you're against or support the Taliban cause y'know, your argument is incoherent at best.
@@blobofmeatwhoexist8460 I'm sorry. I should have realized that most sinners don't have a high level of literacy. So I'll repeat myself. The road to heaven being paved with the blood of sinners isn't an opinion, dog. It is a fact that is literally written in the gospels that you are too illiterate to understand, dog. That's what's really cringe and embarrassing about you☠️ Thus, characters like Jigsaw and John Doe are completely justified for killing sinners. Was that coherent enough for you?
@@sam-ht6qvthe road to heaven is paved by the blood of those who worked, by the hands of the good it is constructed, and by the truly RIGHTCOUS are the ones who finish it, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, constructed by evil deads, and finished with the blood of the innocent or atleast that my view
Finally a video that can highlight Saw ridiculous narcissistic and hypocritical tendencies. I'm tired of people defending jigsaw for being sympathetic and not being a murderer (He is). And Saw further highlighted his Pyschopathic tendencies.
@@georgeliquor1236first degree murder on several accounts. Second degree murder on the officers entering his base in the second movie. Assisted murder and accomplice to murder for those killed by his students. Mutilation of the survivors. Plus thousands of smaller crimes that would take hours to list, including things like desecration of a corpse (any he cut jigsaw pieces out of), kidnapping, accomplice to kidnapping, and robbery. Murder includes creating traps and forcing people into them. You can play semantics all you want, they wouldn't have died in the way they did if John did not create those traps.
Didn't John create a couple of Me vs You traps where there's no way all participants can survive? I realize that most of those are created by his proteges, and my memory of the canon isn't so great, but I was pretty sure he made some traps where the "main" person trapped can make choices to survive but there were sacrificial people that were just the direct object of that person's choice.
I've seen a theory elsewhere that the seemingly doomed participants are victims who already failed their own "tests," but instead of dying right away their punishment was becoming fodder in another person's trap. It's established that there could be a ton of traps out there that the cops never discovered, and we see something like it happen with Donnie Wahlberg's character failing his test in Saw 2 then returning as part of the main trap in 4, so that could be the case. It honestly kinda fits with the other part of John's worldview, that fate is ultimately outside a person's own hands. Like all people, these failed participants made their choices, good or bad, and now whether they live or die because of them is up to forces beyond their control (in this case the actions of people in the next trap).
The trap in the very first movie was a Me vs. You trap. Dr. Gordon either had to kill the photographer or his wife and kids would die of poison. Someone will die whether he passes or fails his test.
@@thehumblevaudevillain If you like the Bourne films, you'll like "The Killer". Similar premise except Michael Fassbender's character is more like Anton Chigurh. If that makes any sense.
Agreed on The Killer! I was about to say that. But instead of just Michael Fassbender’s character alone, cover several characters in the movie like Vile Eye did for Pulp Fiction. Similar to Pulp Fiction, The Killer is a movie which shows the audience there are many reasons for doing evil things, and some of the reasons are understandable, even relatable, but what they *do* is still, evil.
First time I ever saw Tobin Bell was in Goodfellas. He plays Jimmy’s parole officer, but you’ll miss him if you blink. I’m so glad Tobin Bell’s preparation and opportunity came with a little luck. He was a solider in the Hollywood game for years. He finally found niche for himself as the dark vigilante John Kramer. He has become an iconic face to a cinematic institution, and I find it difficult to see anyone else as Jigsaw. Props to you, Mr. Bell!
People who call alot of extreme horror 'torture porn' have clearly never heard of a true torture porn movie, never mind watched one. Saw is litterly the most commercial extreme horror series, it is not comparable to the pure torture movies that do exist that could never be commercialised. Of course still horrific, but it is horror, but not deep shit direct to dvd horror.
@@StandardUserFromEarth Any recommendations for such a film? I'm a bit of a horror buff and I often rarely find myself scared at any movie I see nowadays
So you claim there is value in all of these movies beyond watching people suffer and getting a kick out of it? Stop lying to yourself people, this whole thing is just a ridiculous excuse to get innocent people into horrible artificial situations. The morality of it isn't deep at all
@@juliempankinn lol just stop talking as everything that you’re saying is just plain wrong. There IS value that’s FAR BEYOND “wAtChInG pEOpLe suFFer aN gEtTinG a kiCk ouT oF iT” lol NOT even close as the first Saw film PROVES that there’s depth and meaning to them all as the first film is critically acclaimed and praised for a REASON from how fantastic it all was at the start and John Kramer’s ideals and story was fleshed out even MORE so in the other films. Like Saw 2 and 3 and 4 that made him and even better character than before. Nobody here is “lYiNg” about anything and the ONLY person that needs to “sToP” is you and you and you alone here. The “whole thing” is NOT “jUsT a RiDicUlOuS eXcuSe tO gEt InNoCEnT pEoPlE iNtO hOrRiBLe aRtIfIcAl sItUaTiOns” lol NO it’s not AT ALL as most of the people in the traps ARE NOT “innocent” in the slightest and there’s a lesson to be learned FROM THEM being in those traps. Stop with this “tHe mOraLitY oF iT iSn’T dEeP aT aLl”, lol YES it is! The morality IS that deep as it makes you question if people need to feel true pain and suffering to change better as a person as there IS in depth thematic value to it all and the Vile Eye’s two videos ON John Kramer from the Saw series does highlight and showcase to everyone that there is depth and nuance to everything that’s happening in these movies and it showcases the complexity of John Kramer’s psyche that has layers to it all! What you’re saying here just doesn’t make ANY sense AT ALL if you actually bothered to PAY ATTENTION to the movies.
Yeah this guy is pretty evil. It isn’t that he would love to kill it’s that his methods to “ help “ people is evil. It also comes from an intensely arrogant point of view that he knows best. He’s a broken man finding reason in chaos but it’s a false ideal made by a fractured mind. He’s a menace and his path, while the way to him, is far from the truth. If life is a gift how everyone uses it is their choice and no one made him god to try and “ fix “ them. However isn’t it always the way that each villain is the hero in their own story. As it is with him but it’s a fantasy.
John Kramer is the last villain i’d ever want to cross paths with, the man is one of the most brilliant and well crafted psychopath villains out there. Everything from his intelligence how he easily evades the FBI, and how well put together his maniacal traps are.
never have to worry about that cause nobody has an intellect so powerful they can accurately predict the future like he does cause that's the only way he could make sure his plans go off perfectly.
@@Icykrissy2010 was so shit ae but tbf robert needs to sit in make up for like 8 hours a day and done as much movies as jigsaw he also done a tv show hopefully he makes a comeback
@@Icykrissythe role of Krueger is much more physical than that of John Kramer. Plus, by Englund's own admission, he's too "thick" to fit the silhouette of Krueger at the moment.
Also keep in mind two other important factors that you do not not mention in your video. Number one: Cecil not is not the only one at fault for creating Jigsaw. In fact, it wasn't his idea to rob Jill. That was all Amanda's doing. Cecil even had second thoughts and flat out said to Amanda that Jill has been good to them but Amanda with needing to get her fix so badly gloated Cecil into doing it. So really, had it not been for her, everyone would still be alive. Number two: with the release of Saw X and that John gets scammed out of a possible real last chance at happiness and was robbed of it. That's why he tore out his sketch of The Rack out of his book. He truly believed in the lie that he was cured. Until he found out the truth. It's one reason why he barely used Billy nor did he used any TV to interact with the people who scammed him. He was there in person watching the events unfolding. Making it his most personal and angry than he was already. Even more so than William's test later on in Saw 6. Sad part is that John wasn't the only one who was scammed by those people. He was just the only one who lived to the tell. Again, we don't fully (or even at all) condone John's actions, we understand where he is coming from. The man has been through so much in his life. Its kind of hard not to feel bad for the guy.
he has one tragedy that couldve happened by accident if his wife took a bad fall (the miscarriage) and because of it even though he has hardly developed an attachment to the unborn child (I understand its still incredibly sad) he just lets go of it all. For a man that's so intelligent he abandons his entire life over one tragedy to lead to multiple failures as a husband and human which were all his own doing, to the point he eventually fails at killing himself and then magically become the great manipulative planner in the world with plans that would essentially require seeing an accurate vision of the future to know how the will play out the way he wants.
I had a dream recently in which you covered Homelander from The Boys! He would definitely be a cool villain to analyze (as well as Vought in general). Anyway thanks for the great content! ❤
John’s way of therapy is eerily similar to the “tough love” of a parent. The narrator doesn’t mention this in the video, but besides the person who dies through these games, and the person who survives and becomes grateful for life, there is a third group of people: survivors who become even more broken through these experiences rather than healed. This is why I mentioned parents who discipline their kids. There might be some children who benefit from such “love”, but there also those who hugely suffer from such treatment, and you can never tell which group your child belongs to.
yeah those who hurted others for their own benefit. Seems like most people see his victims as good people, when he literally put rapists and manipulators in his traps.
@@Immolator772 no, it was John too. The depressed guy was literally kidnapped by John, and while he was dead when the smoker was taken, Hoffman only took him on Johns specific orders, meaning John picked him to be tested regardless, just for smoking.
I'm not really a fan of the Saw franchise and to me his reasons for doing what he did got more convoluted as the franchise went on but this new Saw movie that just came out seems like they went back to the basics.
Just like what Scream 5 has mocked, the sequels have become so insane and off the rails it’s time to get it back to the basics with a ‘requel’ and that’s how it usually works 😂
That’s the point. He finds more ways too excuse himself for killing innocent people than finding more ways for his victims too quote on quote “kill themselves”. For all we know, he could literally just be taking his sorrow & pity out on others because it entertains him, but finds Bs reasons too justify it.
Hell yeah, here we go. Love the Saw movies. John makes for a pretty funny character because of how absurdly serious and melodramatic he is. I feel like he'd be the kind of guy to put on the Jigsaw voice and talk about the value of life when the barista messes up his coffee order lmao. Yet at the same time he can show himself to be a pretty interesting and nuanced character. And, of course, a petty and vengeful psycho.
I’m always in the lookout for your content man! This just made my day! I love both your content AND your delivery, and thank you so much for the time and attention you give towards making your videos so great to watch. You're right, this franchise is MUCH more than murder porn. John is such an interesting villain. You have made this month amazing! this Please do more ASOIAF villains like ramsay!
If John really wanted to improve the lives of people, he'd have taken the drug addicts in his games and locked them up to detox and release them after, not try to maim them
That wouldn't do shit, coming from a recovered addict. I'd just go straight back to my dealer after. But definitely not after almost getting brutally murdered in a torturous trap.
Saw Films are essentially Batman movies with out Batman Jigsaw is essentially a combo of Riddler (games and riddles) Professor Pyg (the pig mask) Ventriloquist (the doll is basically scarface with John being Albert Lester) Deacon BlacFire (charismatic cult leader) The City itself is nameless, visually inspired by NYC and New Jersey (Both of which inspired Gotham) The city is a hopeless corrupt hellhole. Great video
I kinda feel like there are times where John and his apprentices test people who probably really don't deserve it. Like in Saw IV, where they test a police officer, Daniel Rigg because of his moral code and sense of justice. Jigsaw thinks Rigg needs to get over his "obsession", despite some of the victims were his friends. It's like Jigsaw is saying that Rigg is in the wrong because he just wants to be a good cop and save innocent lives from a delusional serial killer.
Really great video, been waiting for this one for a long time now! I'd like to add that in Saw X when John believes his tumor was removed, there's a scene that implies he was thinking about quitting his life as Jigsaw and retiring to enjoy the rest of his days (likely with Amanda as a daughter figure seeing as how his relationship with Jill wasn't left on great terms). This brief scene says a lot about John
I think what makes Jigsaw compelling isn't the idea of him being strictly a villain for villains, but that what he's doing is complicated. He believes what he's doing is right, and sometimes we the audience do too to some extent. But there are times that don't stand up as well under scrutiny, and there are times like Amanda which are affected by the fact he's not actually all seeing and all knowing as much as it may seem he is at times. (As much as I don't particularly like her style of things.) He's sympathetic and charismatic enough that you feel for the guy, even when you shouldn't. I think that's where the initial assessment came from honestly. But it's also easier to do so within the confines of a fictional setting and with other degrees of separation. I've found myself a bit on his side even though I'm probably also a candidate for 'rehabilatation'. (I pretty much can't do much for myself and my life is a game of am I depressed because I feel like crap or do I feel like crap because I'm depressed. Which I've found out depression is a comorbidity of a condition I have so that's a 'fun' little twist.) But I think it really is true that while he is human and prone to some of the messier human emotions, at the heart of it he really does mean to do good. Even if he's not.
So, according to your own logic, you're sympathetic and understanding towards a character that would torture and murder you for being depressed. Or if it were someone close to you that was shoplifting. How can people have no way of empathically putting themselves in a situation at all?
@@hichaelhighers My point is that I feel bad for him while realizing he's actually not always right in what he's doing. I can feel bad for people while acknowledging what he's doing is messed up. I feel bad for plenty of people who I don't agree with. Putting myself in the situation doesn't change my opinion. I really don't care for myself. I'm basically stuck watching myself fall apart at an increasingly rapid pace. You clearly have no idea what I'm about.
I love how you go about updates in a "Yes, and" fashion. Well done! 👏 I was hoping you would do a new video on Kramer since Saw X is so character-driven and no doubt provides new material. Thank you!
I have seen saw x yesterday and it was great loved it. I hope they make more starring tobin bell as the main character and not some background character.
SUGGESTIONS: Berlin from Money Heist Light Yagami from Death Note ✅ Makima from Chainsaw Man Lee Woo-Jin from Oldboy (2003)✅ Dr. Martin Brenner from Stranger Things Eren Yaegar from Attack on Titan Joe Goldberg from You Ryo Asuka from Devilman Crybaby William Afton from Five Nights at Freddy’s Slade from Teen Titans The Covenant from the Halo franchise Makarov from the COD: MW trilogy Chris McClean from Total Drama Lotso from Toy Story 3 O Dog from Menace 2 Society ✅ Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat Bill Cypher from Gravity Falls ✅ GLaDOS from the Portal series Homelander from The Boys Napoleon from Animal Farm Niander Wallace Jr. from Blade Runner 2049 Stormfront from The Boys Li’l Ze from City of God ✅ Tomie Kawakami from Junji Ito’s Tomie Gaku Yashiro from Erased Askeladd from Vinland Saga Oh Sangwoo from Killing Stalking CyberLife from Detroit: Become Human Jobu Tubaki from Everything Everywhere All At Once ✅ Thomas Shelby from Peaky Blinders✅ The world of Texhnolyze Hotline Miami 1 and 2 into one video Death from Puss in Boots: The Last Wish (I know he did Jack, so it’s good enough for me) Murkoff Corporation from the Outlast series Vicious from Cowboy Bebop Wrath/King Fuhrer Bradley from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood DIO Brando from Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure The Qu from All Tomorrows Junko Enoshima from the Danganronpa series Adam Smasher from the Cyberpunk series Ted Faro from the Horizon series
There is a strong element of tragedy tae John Krammer. He literally suffered insane trauma, and it led him tae madness. Given the way the films Saw 3D and Jigsaw ended, it is likely his legacy will continue for a long time. Logan spelt out quite clearly how he will never be caught (his game being a test run that allowed him his "justice), and it was implied that Gordon had embraced his role as Krammer's successor, given that he captured Hoffman with two others. Those two were likely the two lads frae the Love Triangle trap at the start of Saw 3D. That would imply that it was Gordon's trap. And now he has two apprentices.
I actually would say he's not void of empathy he saves the one guy because he comes to the realization he doesn't deserve to die for mixing up his x rays
Everybody always interprets that line as being about the X-rays and then says "that makes no sense, this movie sucks!" When it makes SO much more sense that the "honest mistake" was Kramer giving Logan too high a dosage and causing him to be knocked out for too long.
@@awhryan then it should’ve said that, why did Saw X make it clear as day of the agenda of the doctors and relationship of them and John to fuel the betrayal than Jigsaw did? I’ll tell you why Cuz Saw X is better written
@@awhryan It's literally both. John gave him too much and almost just directly killed him. Doing so made John likewise feel unable to judge the guy for _his_ honest mistake. It was a "okay, well, I guess we both screwed up, so like... yeah I guess I see where you're coming from".
I think John Kramer’s story is a cautionary tale of the dangers of taking justice into your own hands. No human being in this world, even a genius like John Kramer, should ever be the sole judge, jury, and executioner. We see people on the internet all the time who have a distasteful amount of barbarism on how they want to bring justice into this world, and I feel like John’s story is a testament of what happens when people gain the power to dish out their own distorted sense of heroism.
Fun fact: Saw was one of two major inspirations behind the Japanese visual novel franchise Danganronpa alongside Cube for the murder mystery plot, executions and mastermind plot twist (Junko Enoshima/John Kramer).
I feel most people don't do him enough justice. They just write him off as a superhero "incel" whens he's a lot better written then you're dumb buzzword category you made for him
One point when u brought up he never intended to kill anyone in Saw he slashed detective Tapp throat. If that isn’t with intent to kill then I must be blind
I think that MatPat makes a great point in his analysis of John’s Effect on his victims. Because a lot of people do appreciate life even more after a trauma, but most suffer from PTSD and other negative effects afterwards. And John’s first reaction after the Death of Gideon and his diagnosis with cancer is depression and attempred suicide. Not appreciation. That only comes after his attempted suicide and comes in an obsession with fixing others. Kinda a brilliantly written villian😅
Fucking Love this channel. Character studies are my thing, especially on tragic characters. So obviously this channel hits the mark, perfectly. You're a cool ass dude, what's your name, uh, well, The Vile Eye 😅. 👍
8:00 No game ensures the death of any participant?? What about Amanda's game where either she or the guy with the key inside him were not going to make it out? Or what about the bathroom game in Saw 1? Gordon has to kill Adam or his family will be murdered. Or what about every trap in Saw 6, which were all overseen by John? He doesn't have any real philosophy.
Logan nelsen was to me and gordon the only good apperentaces and successors, but i could see him like dexter continuing the cult so he is johns best. Plus he has military training, was tortured so has suffered like a them and medical and possible police skills and knowledge.
Tomorrow is my birthday and I want to thank you for such an excellent month of content! This horror stuff is incredible. I hope you have an amazing Halloween and that we can expect more of your tremendous work.
You probably won’t be able to do so since the lore is a little all over the world place but I hope one day you do William Afton from the FNAF franchise
I think it's more of a statement of the insane the quality that Vile's videos have reached more than a slight. Especially since we are watching a remaster of an older video haha
W video like always Mr. Vile Eye. Hopefully you could do any of the Sopranos side characters or the Byrds’ family from Ozark since I’m about to finish the show. Hopefully you cover any of them this coming November.
remember in saw 6 when the insurance broker had to choose between the young single loner and the family woman? That loner dude died without having any say in the matter simply because he didn't have friends, just to prove a point to somebody else (somebody who was a giant dick btw). That guy and many other were tied up in Jigsaw's games but weren't given that critical choice of "live or die" it was wait to be saved, or hope to be selected to live. Pretty much everyone who died in Saw 3, died because of Jeff's inability to complete any of his games, and not because of any choice the victims made during the game. Jigsaw himself seemed to be losing his way in regards to his own already twisted philosophy towards the end, trying to prove that his broken methods work when in reality, it only half worked on one person, Amanda. I like to think that that's part of the idea but Idk, saw can be a bit silly at times with the plot but I love it lol
I always see John Kramer as an Anti Villain, because he's not doing all these tests for his personal sadistic plessure, but he believes that his torturous methods are the best way to rehabilitate someone.
@@maskedman5657 Ok that might be true, and yes he's a hypocrite, but in the end of the day he's still doing all this out of a purpose of redeeming people that he sees as ungrateful of life and other people's lives in his own philosophy; which makes him a Anti Villain.
@@maskedman5657 My guy, you’re arguing with someone with an pfp of the guy’s persona. You’re not gonna get very fair in the way of making a point against them.
well, you say none of the games are meant to just kill the person, but due to writing bs that's essentially what some of em are. "oh you sawed your leg off but 10 seconds too slowly? too bad chucklefuck" "took a part of your brain out? nah still die" "have to rip out chains from parts your body? lol one of em is literally in your jaw so you physically don't have the force required to free it" hell some people that die have no way of getting out on their own, it's someone else that has to free them. it's a bit rigged.
I think the other important thing to note is that John’s apprentices…actually end up getting pretty twisted: - Amanda creates unwinnable traps because she eventually snaps and thinks nobody actually changes; - Mark is solely in it to cover his own ass - he was an unwilling participant in the games to begin with and Jigsaw coerced him into it; - Lawrence went on a huge downward spiral that resulted in his wife taking their daughter and leaving, and the two victims of the first trap in Saw 7 have no character development; - Logan I don’t recall much about (don’t recall if I saw Jigsaw or am just going off of the clips I’ve seen), but the impression I got was that he was using the trap to get revenge for his dead wife; and - The rookie from Spiral was just a copycat killer exacting revenge on the police force that killed his father or were complicit in its cover-up. When I was younger I thought that Kramer saw himself as a Virgil-esque figure leading his victims through a hell tailored to fit their “crime,” to be reborn and rehabilitated. At the end of the day, now that I’ve grown I see that John is just a sick, broken man who has destroyed more lives than he’s helped.
Never really thought about this until you brought up John's history, but this all makes what he put Jeff through in Saw 3 especially evil. Like him, Jeff lost a child and went through a lot of grief that affected their relationship with others. Forcing Jeff to forgive everyone involved, help them out, and destroy the remaining keepsakes of his son; meanwhile John holds onto his grudges and pretty much tortures everyone who ever wronged him or made a mistake.
Truly an incredibly well written character with excellent presentation, capabilities and motivation. It's a pity his goal amounted to little more than petty revenge.
and that's what makes these movies not worth watching. unless you are a weirdo yourself who actually likes the displayed torture, i don't see a reason to go through all that disgust and horror for just another revenge story. I'm sure Mr Bells performance is great, that alone won't do it for me though.
The fact that Tobin Bell is still playing Jigsaw at his age is terrific, amazing actor.
Yeah, but not the best on vinyl record prices.
Yeah. He's so terrific. Speaking monotone and always saying the same thing must be super difficult!
To be fair, he doesn't have to do anything physically, but as far as exposition and being a creepy villian, he does well.
Not only that, but even after all this time playing him, he's still collaborating with the filmmakers on how to do his character right. That's commitment.
@@jessewhite5930yes, being able to consistently play a role for nearly 2 decades is a very hard accomplishment that very few actors can achieve.
I named my son after the first meat packing plant I bought too
“Though these games are traumatising, and sometimes physically harmful”
I feel like you may be downplaying how harmful these games are considering the vast majority of people who are made play them end up dead in horrific ways
Been waiting for this one
Idk man, locking a naked man in a room with broken glass on the floor, coating him in flammable jelly, poisoning him, and giving him a candle, and saying "good luck" is pretty murder if I've ever seen murder.
Yea that's one of the least doable ones 😢
Versus the many, MANY others which are almost nigh impossible to do and are also just practically murder at that point, and I say many others, not just some or most of which are simple but still technically the guy leaving them in a situation where dying is very much imminent thus it’s still murder.
“hASn’T KiLLeD AnYonE” my butt lmao
Mark Hoffman helped John with that trap so it's more than likely he tampered with it to make it harder/unwinnable.
@@SCARFACE_805 I miss Saw 1-3 John when Hoffman didn't exist and there was no excuses for him. It's so clear when they started making retcons to the character and it was obvious from Saw 1-3 that Jigsaw was full of shit when it came to his logic. Now it's "oh he was so noble he really DID want to change people, it was all his APPRENTICES who broke the rules"
@@therebelofchaos1674 I get what you mean but it wouldn't make sense for a frail cancer patient to do all that work alone.
John claims he’s not a murderer because his traps kill his victims. However, John built the traps with the intention of killing the victim if they lose the game. He wants his victims to reevaluate their lives, but he does it while having murderous intents.
As well as causing them pain.
**Loads punishments with murderous intent**
He’s playing God and he has no business doing so. He’s insane and should’ve been imprisoned/institutionalized
@@Sasha-vb3mh John demonstrated to be way more effective than the police. Criminals will stop their actions if they fear death at the first moment they're unconscious or just alone.
Idk about murderous intent the dude driven himself to suicide in his car
Another hole in John’s philosophy is that he regularly uses innocent family members of his victims in his tests. Eric Matthews’s son, Jeff’s wife, and Lawrence Gordon’s family are all examples of this. These people 100% DID NOT deserve to be part of his games.
In addition, John is also willing to straight up kill people who survive his games if they did not complete them in the way that he intended. The most obvious example of this is when he leaves Adam to die at the end of the first film, despite Adam surviving his game.
John is a deeply delusional man. And this is reflected in his philosophy
Innocent Family Member: I want to live. John: well uh shit….. Jigsaw first interaction with a survivor who just wants to live
That's not even the bad part.
Why are Gordon and Adam playing the game? What did they do wrong? Gordon didn't cheat on his wife and Adam was a Private Investigator. So they needed to learn a lesson about doing their jobs?
@@maskedman5657 FRR
@@maskedman5657 Maybe John needed a private eye and/or a doctor to help to to continue his crimes, and the motivation was just one base to test them
@@maskedman5657I think it’s because Tapp and Singh were getting close to him and so he used Gordon and Adam (who were also both being investigated and/or assisting Tapp) to lead them down a rabbit hole that would also lead away from John (John gives Hoffman Gordon’s pen light in a Saw V flashback helping to establish this).
Ultimately, everyone involved in Saw 1 was a flawed person (other than Gordon’s family) and so using these flaws as a twisted justification for a game that would also work as a means of getting the Cops off his trail is in character for John as he has done similar things throughout the franchise even past 1.
In his mind, he is a caring and compassionate person (especially to Amanda and maybe in some instances, Hoffman and Gordon and anyone who survives his Traps/Games) and while he has been screwed in his life many times unjustly, he uses these experiences to validate his ways of murdering people but in the end, he’s just a selfish, judgmental and hypocritical Man with many sob stories who can’t see his own flaws. So, he’s a Narcissist.
The line “complex lore” overcut with the image of him in that hoodie and backward baseball cap disguise is gold
Lmao, true dat man! That "disguise" with the backwards cap and hoodie is ICONIC 😂😂😂, more films should include flashbacks where the character in focus rocks the ball-cap and hoodie combo, cuz man is it such a simple and fucking hilarious yet somewhat logical thing include in ANY film (like idk what it is man, but the fact that a disguise where you literally just throw on a hat and hoodie is so simple/stupid in the context of a movie or show that whike your watching a character use said disguise you'd naturally assume that it wouldn't work whatsoever IRL, yet in reality a simple disguise like that WOULD probably work pretty damn well when trying not to stand out around people who have never seen you. Like idk man that contrast in logic between reality and the logic you follow when watching a film is just hilarious in this particular situation since the change in context between reality and the film's reality completely changes your expectations on the disguise's success despite the fact that it works in the film and would most certainly work IRL, yet because your watching it happen via a movie you think it's stupid and unrealistic yet life is actually that simple and unrealistic in this situation. Like idk maybe I'm not conveying what I'm trying to say properly but the fact that reality can be just as simple and stupid as an "unrealistic" detail in a movie is just fucking hilarious to me!!! 🤣🤣🤣 (I really hope someone is able to understand what I'm trying to say here, cuz honestly I don't really understand it myself, but basically that expectation of something when done in real-life being more complicated than what a movie shows, yet turning out to LITERALLY be just as simple as the Movie showed it being is FUCKING HILARIOUS, to me atleast, and I hope I'm not the only one who thinks so or the only one that understands my explanation on why I find it hilarious, otherwise I'm fucked and probably crazy/stupid or both 🤣🤣🤣😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣
@@theleonpasta7336i love this comment
I can’t help to like John, even though he does psychotic stuff. I think that’s because of Tobin’s bells performance as him, truly captivating.
Same
I know what you mean. Hes still insanely full of shit that he tricks himself “im not killing anyone” lol riiiiiight i love his character though
@@lucasb7705 He's infinitely more complex than most horror movie villains even though he's a massive hypocrite and still a complete psycho
He’s a good guy. Can’t say a bad thing about him 👍🏻
that's the point, many villains especially those in real life have alluring personalities that pull u further into their ideology and start to even believe it or at least not shame the belief in said ideology no matter how grotesque it is
the actor playing jigsaw has been performing this possibly the best in cinema history
"a leader has to believe in his ideals so powerfully that they seem insane, as that's the only way their followers too would believe"
The Saw franchise is one of the most convoluted & messy series I've ever seen but also it's very entertaining to watch. John Kramer was a great villain
The traps/creativity doesn’t get enough credit
The timeline stopped making sense like 5 movies ago yet they keep retconning new stuff in with each new movie making it even less-sensical which is funny af.
So i watched the first Saw the other week, and noticed in a flashback that his cancer is affecting his brain. The specific areas of the brain were the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for inhibition control, impulsivity, and emotional regulation. That being said, his sickness could have made his psychotic tendencies worse as he literally couldn't control himself.
Interesting theory
it’s very common for patients with certain types/stages of brain cancer to have complete personality changes so it’s an interesting theory. I think it would at the very least make him prone to delusions. course im no doctor but it’s a cool idea
I find the concept of Jigsaw pretty interesting. He genuinely thinks he is helping people, but we see his actions are still evil and hypocritical. Like they said in saw 2, "putting a gun to someones head and forcing them to pull the trigger is still murder."
It doesn't matter what John says, what he does is blatant murder. It doesn't matter if everyone has a chance to escape, or if they died only to his traps, he is still killing them, no matter how much he claims to want to help them.
It's ironic that John claims to despise murderers, but is blind to being just as bad as those people he hates.
The problem isn’t about John thinking that he never killed anyone. It’s fine for a psychopath like him to be delusional.
The problem is that the directors, writers and actors themselves in real life keep claiming that John never killed anyone.
John Kramer has a sinister charisma that makes no sense because he's just an incredibly intelligent creep with a warped moral compass. Tobin Bell is just that magnetic and compelling of a performer.
I think that Tobin Bell's natural charm is one of the big reasons that people think you're supposed to actually believe him when he says he isnt a murderer
Yeah he reminds me of an evil Clint Eastwood.
Doesn't he make some traps where multiple people are outright competing for survival? And some where the people in peril are at the complete mercy of someone else to save them?
The 'everyone can survive my traps bro, they just need that will2live' line is bull
To be kind to John, many of those later games aren't made by John himself, but instead by his apprentices, which may influence their desires to do more harm than even John intended.
@@MrNiceVoice Amanda's game involved cutting a guy open to get a key and that guy was given no chance of survival at all and this was done by John himself no one else.
Jesus, do people even pay attention to these movies? He literally dies in the second movie, how did he make the other traps from the afterlife!?
@@Immolator772 he died in the third movie and the movies afterwards show multiple scenes confirming that he left behind plans and instructions for future games did you even watch the movies mate?
@@spencerreid2086 he literally made all the traps, but he never made them unbeatable.
Another character from the Saw franchise that deserves an episode: Amanda Young.
And then Mark Hoffman.
I'm not sure that Lawrence Gordon should be on the list since he has less amount of screentime aside from the first film
I think the ultimate example of John's methods being flawed is through his own apprentices. Each one either never fully believed in what he did or took advantage of the position they had.
While Logan had little involvement, his game in the 8th film was purely an act and revenge and led to pointless deaths to get to the man he wanted, who he flat out murdered.
Hoffman only took part in these games because he was blackmailed by John, and he clearly gets a sadistic pleasure out of seeing people go through these trials. Not to mention how many murders he commits in the 6 and 7th films.
Amanda just loses faith in John's methods by Saw 3, sure she was blackmailed by Hoffman but the doubt was clearly still there and i imagine the events of Saw X had something to do with leading her to making unwinnable traps.
Gordon we know the least about, but the fact that he seems to have had little involvement in most of the traps and kept his involvement the most secret tells me he wanted to just be done with it all and move on, especially by the time he killed Hoffman.
You got a great point there
That's pretty much what I was thinking. The people who passed John's tests didn't become better people, they became more jaded, bitter and sociopathic. Amanda eventually relapsed and became disillusioned with John's methods, which is why she partly put people in unescapable traps: Nobody changes.
Hoffmann initially killed out of revenge, and then he was adopted as an apprentice. Jigsaw told him to stop feeling remorse for the deaths he had a hand in causing with their games, and Hoffmann deteriorated into a serial killer.
Logan starts off as a war veteran who suffers from PTSD and makes a mistake while performing as a medical examiner. John takes advantage of his vulnerability to recruit him to his cause, and Logan eventually descends into making an inescapable trap to enact revenge against a corrupt cop, contrary to Jigsaws teachings.
Gordon Lawrence is probably the closest to being the apprentice John desired, but even then he is so mentally unstable from his experiences that his wife and child leave him, so its not like winning the game made him a better husband and father. The whole reason Gordon was in that trap to begin with was partly because he took his family for granted.
So of the four people we know of who passed John's tests and became his apprentices, 3 out of 4 became worse human beings who did not even adhere to John's philosophy, and the remaining one was a partial success at best, adhering somewhat to the philosophy but becoming unable to act as a father and husband to his kids.
I'd also argue that anyone who truly appreciates life wouldn't endanger the lives of others by putting them in life or death situations, but that's another discussion.
spot...on.@@JoeKrzcyz
I'd ask how Amanda was supposed to retrieve the key from that man's stomach without cutting him open when you say none of John's game was used to assure the death of any participant.
Induced vomiting, perhaps. But let's not pretend John gave everyone a fair chance at survival, especially when their lives were in the hands of others.
I would believe that John truly believes "killing is distasteful" I'd Saw X didn't exploit one glaring contradiction to that claim:
John FANTASIZED that the pickpocket lost the vacuum trap, as opposed to succeed. This implies his instinct to inflict maximum punishment on all contestants. By nature, he IS a killer.
Yes, there is a certain vindictiveness and bitterness to Jigsaw's mentality. He's dying, so he's bitter that everyone else doesn't appreciate life as much as he think they should.
@@JoeKrzcyz Yeah his real reasons for trapping people are getting back at people who crossed him and self righteous "punishment" of people not living their lives the way he wants.
Just finished a Saw marathon last week, perfect timing for this to come out! Honestly for me what makes John such a great villain, is that there’s some nuggets of truth with what he’s saying, but none of that condones the absolute horrible traps he puts people in in order to manufacture his form of “rehabilitation”. He’s like the epitome of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”
@@sam-ht6qvabsolutely insane how none of your points make sense, like why the fuck Taliban is in there all of the sudden ?
And also "the road to heaven is paved with the blood of sinners." is such a cringy edgy line like I can't lmaoo, embarrassing really.
And also just realized this, but Taliban would've agreed with your "gospel truth" which is the funniest irony if I ever see one, but then again I don't know if you're against or support the Taliban cause y'know, your argument is incoherent at best.
@@blobofmeatwhoexist8460 I'm sorry. I should have realized that most sinners don't have a high level of literacy. So I'll repeat myself.
The road to heaven being paved with the blood of sinners isn't an opinion, dog. It is a fact that is literally written in the gospels that you are too illiterate to understand, dog. That's what's really cringe and embarrassing about you☠️
Thus, characters like Jigsaw and John Doe are completely justified for killing sinners. Was that coherent enough for you?
@@sam-ht6qvMan I missed pathetic edgy teens like you, I thought they’d gone extinct from too much cringe or turning into soft femboys
@@sam-ht6qv Wow! Please educate me good sir! You seem so much more wise than me!
@@sam-ht6qvthe road to heaven is paved by the blood of those who worked, by the hands of the good it is constructed, and by the truly RIGHTCOUS are the ones who finish it, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, constructed by evil deads, and finished with the blood of the innocent or atleast that my view
Finally a video that can highlight Saw ridiculous narcissistic and hypocritical tendencies. I'm tired of people defending jigsaw for being sympathetic and not being a murderer (He is). And Saw further highlighted his Pyschopathic tendencies.
he's so judgemental
The charges officer?
@@babynautilushe puts sex workers and drug addicts in his traps but not any war criminals or oil barons, interesting
@@cathoderayguns He's worse than John Doe
@@georgeliquor1236first degree murder on several accounts. Second degree murder on the officers entering his base in the second movie. Assisted murder and accomplice to murder for those killed by his students. Mutilation of the survivors. Plus thousands of smaller crimes that would take hours to list, including things like desecration of a corpse (any he cut jigsaw pieces out of), kidnapping, accomplice to kidnapping, and robbery.
Murder includes creating traps and forcing people into them. You can play semantics all you want, they wouldn't have died in the way they did if John did not create those traps.
His tactics/traps are also EXTREMELY well thought out (all things considered).
Didn't John create a couple of Me vs You traps where there's no way all participants can survive? I realize that most of those are created by his proteges, and my memory of the canon isn't so great, but I was pretty sure he made some traps where the "main" person trapped can make choices to survive but there were sacrificial people that were just the direct object of that person's choice.
I've seen a theory elsewhere that the seemingly doomed participants are victims who already failed their own "tests," but instead of dying right away their punishment was becoming fodder in another person's trap. It's established that there could be a ton of traps out there that the cops never discovered, and we see something like it happen with Donnie Wahlberg's character failing his test in Saw 2 then returning as part of the main trap in 4, so that could be the case.
It honestly kinda fits with the other part of John's worldview, that fate is ultimately outside a person's own hands. Like all people, these failed participants made their choices, good or bad, and now whether they live or die because of them is up to forces beyond their control (in this case the actions of people in the next trap).
The trap in the very first movie was a Me vs. You trap. Dr. Gordon either had to kill the photographer or his wife and kids would die of poison. Someone will die whether he passes or fails his test.
he also forced Amanda to unalive a random guy to get a key to her trap
He wasn't a random guy, he was a POS, listen to the tape
I think Michael Fassbender's character in "The Killer" which I saw over the weekend would make an excellent subject for the Vile Eye treatment.
How was the movie BTW? No spoilers please. Just wanna know if its a great watch
@@thehumblevaudevillain It's really good, especially if you are a David Fincher fan
@@thehumblevaudevillain If you like the Bourne films, you'll like "The Killer". Similar premise except Michael Fassbender's character is more like Anton Chigurh. If that makes any sense.
Agreed on The Killer! I was about to say that. But instead of just Michael Fassbender’s character alone, cover several characters in the movie like Vile Eye did for Pulp Fiction. Similar to Pulp Fiction, The Killer is a movie which shows the audience there are many reasons for doing evil things, and some of the reasons are understandable, even relatable, but what they *do* is still, evil.
First time I ever saw Tobin Bell was in Goodfellas. He plays Jimmy’s parole officer, but you’ll miss him if you blink.
I’m so glad Tobin Bell’s preparation and opportunity came with a little luck.
He was a solider in the Hollywood game for years. He finally found niche for himself as the dark vigilante John Kramer.
He has become an iconic face to a cinematic institution, and I find it difficult to see anyone else as Jigsaw.
Props to you, Mr. Bell!
He appears in an episode of The Sopranos as the head of a military school that Tony wants to send his son AJ to.
Nicely done! John Kramer is definitely one of the horror icons. Calling Saw series purely torture porn is not right.
People who call alot of extreme horror 'torture porn' have clearly never heard of a true torture porn movie, never mind watched one.
Saw is litterly the most commercial extreme horror series, it is not comparable to the pure torture movies that do exist that could never be commercialised. Of course still horrific, but it is horror, but not deep shit direct to dvd horror.
@@StandardUserFromEarth You say "commercial", you mean "mainstream", right? I think that's what you're trying to say and I hope it is!
@@StandardUserFromEarth Any recommendations for such a film? I'm a bit of a horror buff and I often rarely find myself scared at any movie I see nowadays
So you claim there is value in all of these movies beyond watching people suffer and getting a kick out of it? Stop lying to yourself people, this whole thing is just a ridiculous excuse to get innocent people into horrible artificial situations. The morality of it isn't deep at all
@@juliempankinn lol just stop talking as everything that you’re saying is just plain wrong. There IS value that’s FAR BEYOND “wAtChInG pEOpLe suFFer aN gEtTinG a kiCk ouT oF iT” lol NOT even close as the first Saw film PROVES that there’s depth and meaning to them all as the first film is critically acclaimed and praised for a REASON from how fantastic it all was at the start and John Kramer’s ideals and story was fleshed out even MORE so in the other films. Like Saw 2 and 3 and 4 that made him and even better character than before.
Nobody here is “lYiNg” about anything and the ONLY person that needs to “sToP” is you and you and you alone here. The “whole thing” is NOT “jUsT a RiDicUlOuS eXcuSe tO gEt InNoCEnT pEoPlE iNtO hOrRiBLe aRtIfIcAl sItUaTiOns” lol NO it’s not AT ALL as most of the people in the traps ARE NOT “innocent” in the slightest and there’s a lesson to be learned FROM THEM being in those traps.
Stop with this “tHe mOraLitY oF iT iSn’T dEeP aT aLl”, lol YES it is!
The morality IS that deep as it makes you question if people need to feel true pain and suffering to change better as a person as there IS in depth thematic value to it all and the Vile Eye’s two videos ON John Kramer from the Saw series does highlight and showcase to everyone that there is depth and nuance to everything that’s happening in these movies and it showcases the complexity of John Kramer’s psyche that has layers to it all! What you’re saying here just doesn’t make ANY sense AT ALL if you actually bothered to PAY ATTENTION to the movies.
Yeah this guy is pretty evil. It isn’t that he would love to kill it’s that his methods to “ help “ people is evil. It also comes from an intensely arrogant point of view that he knows best. He’s a broken man finding reason in chaos but it’s a false ideal made by a fractured mind. He’s a menace and his path, while the way to him, is far from the truth. If life is a gift how everyone uses it is their choice and no one made him god to try and “ fix “ them. However isn’t it always the way that each villain is the hero in their own story. As it is with him but it’s a fantasy.
John Kramer is the last villain i’d ever want to cross paths with, the man is one of the most brilliant and well crafted psychopath villains out there. Everything from his intelligence how he easily evades the FBI, and how well put together his maniacal traps are.
never have to worry about that cause nobody has an intellect so powerful they can accurately predict the future like he does cause that's the only way he could make sure his plans go off perfectly.
John Kramer!!!! Its amazing that Tobin Bell is still rocking him in his 80s!
Meanwhile, Robert Englund (Freddy Krueger) retired his role at 56.
Tobin Bell is swallowing fake blood on a seesaw at 81
@@Icykrissywhat was the last Nightmare On Elm Street movie?
@@an-animal-lover 2010 with a different actor
@@Icykrissy2010 was so shit ae but tbf robert needs to sit in make up for like 8 hours a day and done as much movies as jigsaw he also done a tv show hopefully he makes a comeback
@@Icykrissythe role of Krueger is much more physical than that of John Kramer. Plus, by Englund's own admission, he's too "thick" to fit the silhouette of Krueger at the moment.
Also keep in mind two other important factors that you do not not mention in your video.
Number one: Cecil not is not the only one at fault for creating Jigsaw. In fact, it wasn't his idea to rob Jill. That was all Amanda's doing. Cecil even had second thoughts and flat out said to Amanda that Jill has been good to them but Amanda with needing to get her fix so badly gloated Cecil into doing it. So really, had it not been for her, everyone would still be alive.
Number two: with the release of Saw X and that John gets scammed out of a possible real last chance at happiness and was robbed of it. That's why he tore out his sketch of The Rack out of his book. He truly believed in the lie that he was cured. Until he found out the truth. It's one reason why he barely used Billy nor did he used any TV to interact with the people who scammed him. He was there in person watching the events unfolding. Making it his most personal and angry than he was already. Even more so than William's test later on in Saw 6. Sad part is that John wasn't the only one who was scammed by those people. He was just the only one who lived to the tell.
Again, we don't fully (or even at all) condone John's actions, we understand where he is coming from. The man has been through so much in his life. Its kind of hard not to feel bad for the guy.
he has one tragedy that couldve happened by accident if his wife took a bad fall (the miscarriage) and because of it even though he has hardly developed an attachment to the unborn child (I understand its still incredibly sad) he just lets go of it all. For a man that's so intelligent he abandons his entire life over one tragedy to lead to multiple failures as a husband and human which were all his own doing, to the point he eventually fails at killing himself and then magically become the great manipulative planner in the world with plans that would essentially require seeing an accurate vision of the future to know how the will play out the way he wants.
I had a dream recently in which you covered Homelander from The Boys! He would definitely be a cool villain to analyze (as well as Vought in general). Anyway thanks for the great content! ❤
Vile, I would love to make a suggestion. Turn your analytical force on Frieza, emperor of Universe 7 from the dragon ball franchise.
John’s way of therapy is eerily similar to the “tough love” of a parent.
The narrator doesn’t mention this in the video, but besides the person who dies through these games, and the person who survives and becomes grateful for life, there is a third group of people: survivors who become even more broken through these experiences rather than healed.
This is why I mentioned parents who discipline their kids. There might be some children who benefit from such “love”, but there also those who hugely suffer from such treatment, and you can never tell which group your child belongs to.
Tough love to kids is not the same thing as torture in intent to kill
Nice try tho, you failed
yeah those who hurted others for their own benefit. Seems like most people see his victims as good people, when he literally put rapists and manipulators in his traps.
@@Immolator772he also put smokers and mentally ill people in his traps, people who did nothing wrong but not live up to his standards.
@@nicknamed1267 that was Hoffman
@@Immolator772 no, it was John too. The depressed guy was literally kidnapped by John, and while he was dead when the smoker was taken, Hoffman only took him on Johns specific orders, meaning John picked him to be tested regardless, just for smoking.
I'm not really a fan of the Saw franchise and to me his reasons for doing what he did got more convoluted as the franchise went on but this new Saw movie that just came out seems like they went back to the basics.
Just like what Scream 5 has mocked, the sequels have become so insane and off the rails it’s time to get it back to the basics with a ‘requel’ and that’s how it usually works 😂
That’s the point.
He finds more ways too excuse himself for killing innocent people than finding more ways for his victims too quote on quote “kill themselves”.
For all we know, he could literally just be taking his sorrow & pity out on others because it entertains him, but finds Bs reasons too justify it.
Hell yeah, here we go. Love the Saw movies.
John makes for a pretty funny character because of how absurdly serious and melodramatic he is. I feel like he'd be the kind of guy to put on the Jigsaw voice and talk about the value of life when the barista messes up his coffee order lmao. Yet at the same time he can show himself to be a pretty interesting and nuanced character. And, of course, a petty and vengeful psycho.
I’m always in the lookout for your content man! This just made my day! I love both your content AND your delivery, and thank you so much for the time and attention you give towards making your videos so great to watch. You're right, this franchise is MUCH more than murder porn. John is such an interesting villain. You have made this month amazing! this Please do more ASOIAF villains like ramsay!
If John really wanted to improve the lives of people, he'd have taken the drug addicts in his games and locked them up to detox and release them after, not try to maim them
That wouldn't do shit, coming from a recovered addict. I'd just go straight back to my dealer after. But definitely not after almost getting brutally murdered in a torturous trap.
One of the most underrated actors
Saw Films are essentially Batman movies with out Batman
Jigsaw is essentially a combo of
Riddler (games and riddles)
Professor Pyg (the pig mask)
Ventriloquist (the doll is basically scarface with John being Albert Lester)
Deacon BlacFire (charismatic cult leader)
The City itself is nameless, visually inspired by NYC and New Jersey
(Both of which inspired Gotham)
The city is a hopeless corrupt hellhole.
Great video
I kinda feel like there are times where John and his apprentices test people who probably really don't deserve it.
Like in Saw IV, where they test a police officer, Daniel Rigg because of his moral code and sense of justice. Jigsaw thinks Rigg needs to get over his "obsession", despite some of the victims were his friends. It's like Jigsaw is saying that Rigg is in the wrong because he just wants to be a good cop and save innocent lives from a delusional serial killer.
Really great video, been waiting for this one for a long time now! I'd like to add that in Saw X when John believes his tumor was removed, there's a scene that implies he was thinking about quitting his life as Jigsaw and retiring to enjoy the rest of his days (likely with Amanda as a daughter figure seeing as how his relationship with Jill wasn't left on great terms). This brief scene says a lot about John
I need you to do purple man from FNAF. Underated villain
Excellent analysis on him. This is the best dissection of John’s character I’ve seen :3
I think what makes Jigsaw compelling isn't the idea of him being strictly a villain for villains, but that what he's doing is complicated.
He believes what he's doing is right, and sometimes we the audience do too to some extent. But there are times that don't stand up as well under scrutiny, and there are times like Amanda which are affected by the fact he's not actually all seeing and all knowing as much as it may seem he is at times. (As much as I don't particularly like her style of things.)
He's sympathetic and charismatic enough that you feel for the guy, even when you shouldn't. I think that's where the initial assessment came from honestly.
But it's also easier to do so within the confines of a fictional setting and with other degrees of separation.
I've found myself a bit on his side even though I'm probably also a candidate for 'rehabilatation'.
(I pretty much can't do much for myself and my life is a game of am I depressed because I feel like crap or do I feel like crap because I'm depressed. Which I've found out depression is a comorbidity of a condition I have so that's a 'fun' little twist.)
But I think it really is true that while he is human and prone to some of the messier human emotions, at the heart of it he really does mean to do good. Even if he's not.
So, according to your own logic, you're sympathetic and understanding towards a character that would torture and murder you for being depressed.
Or if it were someone close to you that was shoplifting.
How can people have no way of empathically putting themselves in a situation at all?
@@hichaelhighers My point is that I feel bad for him while realizing he's actually not always right in what he's doing.
I can feel bad for people while acknowledging what he's doing is messed up. I feel bad for plenty of people who I don't agree with.
Putting myself in the situation doesn't change my opinion. I really don't care for myself. I'm basically stuck watching myself fall apart at an increasingly rapid pace.
You clearly have no idea what I'm about.
I love how you go about updates in a "Yes, and" fashion. Well done! 👏
I was hoping you would do a new video on Kramer since Saw X is so character-driven and no doubt provides new material. Thank you!
I have seen saw x yesterday and it was great loved it. I hope they make more starring tobin bell as the main character and not some background character.
Videos like this remind me of how much I enjoyed seeing the expansion of John's life as the story progressed. And also how much Saw 3D sucked.
You should do Wilson Fisk/Kingpin from the Daredevil Netflix TV series
SUGGESTIONS:
Berlin from Money Heist
Light Yagami from Death Note ✅
Makima from Chainsaw Man
Lee Woo-Jin from Oldboy (2003)✅
Dr. Martin Brenner from Stranger Things
Eren Yaegar from Attack on Titan
Joe Goldberg from You
Ryo Asuka from Devilman Crybaby
William Afton from Five Nights at Freddy’s
Slade from Teen Titans
The Covenant from the Halo franchise
Makarov from the COD: MW trilogy
Chris McClean from Total Drama
Lotso from Toy Story 3
O Dog from Menace 2 Society ✅
Shao Kahn from Mortal Kombat
Bill Cypher from Gravity Falls ✅
GLaDOS from the Portal series
Homelander from The Boys
Napoleon from Animal Farm
Niander Wallace Jr. from Blade Runner 2049
Stormfront from The Boys
Li’l Ze from City of God ✅
Tomie Kawakami from Junji Ito’s Tomie
Gaku Yashiro from Erased
Askeladd from Vinland Saga
Oh Sangwoo from Killing Stalking
CyberLife from Detroit: Become Human
Jobu Tubaki from Everything Everywhere All At Once ✅
Thomas Shelby from Peaky Blinders✅
The world of Texhnolyze
Hotline Miami 1 and 2 into one video
Death from Puss in Boots: The Last Wish (I know he did Jack, so it’s good enough for me)
Murkoff Corporation from the Outlast series
Vicious from Cowboy Bebop
Wrath/King Fuhrer Bradley from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood
DIO Brando from Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure
The Qu from All Tomorrows
Junko Enoshima from the Danganronpa series
Adam Smasher from the Cyberpunk series
Ted Faro from the Horizon series
Ryo would be cool
A whole list. Great suggestions
Could you cover Eren Yeager from Attack on Titan?
Jigsaw killer- "Congratulations, yourstill alive. So many people are so ungrateful to be alive, but not you ,not anymore.
There is a strong element of tragedy tae John Krammer. He literally suffered insane trauma, and it led him tae madness.
Given the way the films Saw 3D and Jigsaw ended, it is likely his legacy will continue for a long time.
Logan spelt out quite clearly how he will never be caught (his game being a test run that allowed him his "justice), and it was implied that Gordon had embraced his role as Krammer's successor, given that he captured Hoffman with two others. Those two were likely the two lads frae the Love Triangle trap at the start of Saw 3D. That would imply that it was Gordon's trap.
And now he has two apprentices.
I actually would say he's not void of empathy he saves the one guy because he comes to the realization he doesn't deserve to die for mixing up his x rays
That never made sense, Jigsaw movie as a whole just shouldn’t be canon….just ugh
Everybody always interprets that line as being about the X-rays and then says "that makes no sense, this movie sucks!" When it makes SO much more sense that the "honest mistake" was Kramer giving Logan too high a dosage and causing him to be knocked out for too long.
@@awhryan then it should’ve said that, why did Saw X make it clear as day of the agenda of the doctors and relationship of them and John to fuel the betrayal than Jigsaw did? I’ll tell you why
Cuz Saw X is better written
@@awhryan It's literally both. John gave him too much and almost just directly killed him. Doing so made John likewise feel unable to judge the guy for _his_ honest mistake. It was a "okay, well, I guess we both screwed up, so like... yeah I guess I see where you're coming from".
arguably the only screw up john ever really makes once he becomes jigsaw which doesn't make sense.@@PosthumanHeresy
Now do a vileeye on Kramer from Seinfeld.
the “Laugh Factory” incident…
This analysis was magnificent; one of your best. Well done.
Please analyze snow from the hunger games
I think John Kramer’s story is a cautionary tale of the dangers of taking justice into your own hands.
No human being in this world, even a genius like John Kramer, should ever be the sole judge, jury, and executioner.
We see people on the internet all the time who have a distasteful amount of barbarism on how they want to bring justice into this world, and I feel like John’s story is a testament of what happens when people gain the power to dish out their own distorted sense of heroism.
“No game John has ever made has ensured the death of any participant”
Uh. Literally the first movie, Amanda’s game involved someone dying *guaranteed*
saw if gideon lived :
kid: so whats your name?
gideon: gideon meat packing plant kramer
Fun fact: Saw was one of two major inspirations behind the Japanese visual novel franchise Danganronpa alongside Cube for the murder mystery plot, executions and mastermind plot twist (Junko Enoshima/John Kramer).
I felt a lot of Saw vibes when seeing this game.
You should analyze the evil of Tighten from Megamind
I feel most people don't do him enough justice. They just write him off as a superhero "incel" whens he's a lot better written then you're dumb buzzword category you made for him
Heck yeah! A vile eye video to boost my mood for the week! Can’t wait for the next one. Could a potential analysis be on Frank Fontaine from Bioshock?
Ooh, yes. Bioshock has some great villains that could be covered
One point when u brought up he never intended to kill anyone in Saw he slashed detective Tapp throat. If that isn’t with intent to kill then I must be blind
Thank God for this man, always a treat from you Mr. Vile Eye, thank you again
I think that MatPat makes a great point in his analysis of John’s Effect on his victims. Because a lot of people do appreciate life even more after a trauma, but most suffer from PTSD and other negative effects afterwards. And John’s first reaction after the Death of Gideon and his diagnosis with cancer is depression and attempred suicide. Not appreciation. That only comes after his attempted suicide and comes in an obsession with fixing others. Kinda a brilliantly written villian😅
My mom sent me this
Fucking Love this channel. Character studies are my thing, especially on tragic characters. So obviously this channel hits the mark, perfectly. You're a cool ass dude, what's your name, uh, well, The Vile Eye 😅. 👍
Please make one about Mark Hoffman 🙏🏻🙏🏻
I would love to see a video analyzing Jackie Cogan from "Killing Them Softly".
Please you gotta do an analysis on chucky, AKA: Charles lee ray from the child play series
I think Amanda from this franchise would be an appropriate video for this series.
You want to play a game?
Do Hoffman.
8:00 No game ensures the death of any participant?? What about Amanda's game where either she or the guy with the key inside him were not going to make it out? Or what about the bathroom game in Saw 1? Gordon has to kill Adam or his family will be murdered. Or what about every trap in Saw 6, which were all overseen by John? He doesn't have any real philosophy.
Amazing Halloween present
Logan nelsen was to me and gordon the only good apperentaces and successors, but i could see him like dexter continuing the cult so he is johns best. Plus he has military training, was tortured so has suffered like a them and medical and possible police skills and knowledge.
Tomorrow is my birthday and I want to thank you for such an excellent month of content! This horror stuff is incredible. I hope you have an amazing Halloween and that we can expect more of your tremendous work.
You probably won’t be able to do so since the lore is a little all over the world place but I hope one day you do William Afton from the FNAF franchise
You're my all time favorite youtuber vile! Thanks for this one! You have always gotten better and better and im here for it!🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤❤
So your saying there was a point when he was worse? Poor choice of words
I think it's more of a statement of the insane the quality that Vile's videos have reached more than a slight. Especially since we are watching a remaster of an older video haha
@@damienduncan646 EXACTLY! thanks!
You should redo the video on Patrick Bateman after you’ve read the book as he is much more sadistic and evil in it.
Watched this movie last night. I would say SAW X was probably the most in-depth movie in regards to Kramers backstory and his warped morality complex.
That movie was ass
You should absolutely cover Randall Flagg from the Stephen King mythos
Got a couple autographs and one of the inked in blood posters from Tobin. Love him sm
John Kramer may just be a killer with a gimmick, but damn if it isn't one of the coolest gimmicks in cinema.
Love this character and the actor.
Similar line of thought - Warhammer 40k’s Konrad Curze aka Night Haunter
Jigsaw doesnt torture people to death on worldwide tv for attempting suicide.
@@YOSSARIAN313 was just thinking their aims aims similar though - making people better
@@hamishsewell5990 jigsaw actually lets people live conrad killed every criminal on nostramo
@@YOSSARIAN313 fair point.
Better idea IMO: The Emperor from WH40K
Analyzing Evil: Christopher Moltisanti next from the Sopranos, please. You did Tony Soprano so well
Analyzing evil on Chucky from Childs play
Really nice Thx you so much
W video like always Mr. Vile Eye. Hopefully you could do any of the Sopranos side characters or the Byrds’ family from Ozark since I’m about to finish the show. Hopefully you cover any of them this coming November.
WE GOING TO PLAY A GAME WITH THIS ONE 😩😩😩💯💯
The Vile Eye should do a video on the main characters from "The Town".
John kramer and Tobin Bell himself is great.
Jean-Baptiste Grenouille from Perfume: The Story of a Murderer
Best horror anti-villain ever!
remember in saw 6 when the insurance broker had to choose between the young single loner and the family woman? That loner dude died without having any say in the matter simply because he didn't have friends, just to prove a point to somebody else (somebody who was a giant dick btw). That guy and many other were tied up in Jigsaw's games but weren't given that critical choice of "live or die" it was wait to be saved, or hope to be selected to live. Pretty much everyone who died in Saw 3, died because of Jeff's inability to complete any of his games, and not because of any choice the victims made during the game.
Jigsaw himself seemed to be losing his way in regards to his own already twisted philosophy towards the end, trying to prove that his broken methods work when in reality, it only half worked on one person, Amanda. I like to think that that's part of the idea but Idk, saw can be a bit silly at times with the plot but I love it lol
I always see John Kramer as an Anti Villain, because he's not doing all these tests for his personal sadistic plessure, but he believes that his torturous methods are the best way to rehabilitate someone.
Yeah, admirable motives but his methods are very questionable and outright inhumane.
@@ALIEN-DUDE That what makes an Anti Villain, in which they see no wrong into doing what they think it's right in their perspective.
Dude you're tripping. John is most definitely doing this for his sadistic pleasure. Hes a hypocrite
@@maskedman5657 Ok that might be true, and yes he's a hypocrite, but in the end of the day he's still doing all this out of a purpose of redeeming people that he sees as ungrateful of life and other people's lives in his own philosophy; which makes him a Anti Villain.
@@maskedman5657
My guy, you’re arguing with someone with an pfp of the guy’s persona.
You’re not gonna get very fair in the way of making a point against them.
ANALYSISING EVIL TIGHTEN FROM MEGAMIND
GAME OVER!
- Jigsaw
well, you say none of the games are meant to just kill the person, but due to writing bs that's essentially what some of em are.
"oh you sawed your leg off but 10 seconds too slowly? too bad chucklefuck"
"took a part of your brain out? nah still die"
"have to rip out chains from parts your body? lol one of em is literally in your jaw so you physically don't have the force required to free it"
hell some people that die have no way of getting out on their own, it's someone else that has to free them.
it's a bit rigged.
I think the other important thing to note is that John’s apprentices…actually end up getting pretty twisted:
- Amanda creates unwinnable traps because she eventually snaps and thinks nobody actually changes;
- Mark is solely in it to cover his own ass - he was an unwilling participant in the games to begin with and Jigsaw coerced him into it;
- Lawrence went on a huge downward spiral that resulted in his wife taking their daughter and leaving, and the two victims of the first trap in Saw 7 have no character development;
- Logan I don’t recall much about (don’t recall if I saw Jigsaw or am just going off of the clips I’ve seen), but the impression I got was that he was using the trap to get revenge for his dead wife; and
- The rookie from Spiral was just a copycat killer exacting revenge on the police force that killed his father or were complicit in its cover-up.
When I was younger I thought that Kramer saw himself as a Virgil-esque figure leading his victims through a hell tailored to fit their “crime,” to be reborn and rehabilitated. At the end of the day, now that I’ve grown I see that John is just a sick, broken man who has destroyed more lives than he’s helped.
You should remaster Micheal Myers from the 2018 trilogy
Never really thought about this until you brought up John's history, but this all makes what he put Jeff through in Saw 3 especially evil. Like him, Jeff lost a child and went through a lot of grief that affected their relationship with others. Forcing Jeff to forgive everyone involved, help them out, and destroy the remaining keepsakes of his son; meanwhile John holds onto his grudges and pretty much tortures everyone who ever wronged him or made a mistake.
Can you cover Azula from Avatar the Last Airbender?
He did
Truly an incredibly well written character with excellent presentation, capabilities and motivation. It's a pity his goal amounted to little more than petty revenge.
and that's what makes these movies not worth watching.
unless you are a weirdo yourself who actually likes the displayed torture, i don't see a reason to go through all that disgust and horror for just another revenge story.
I'm sure Mr Bells performance is great, that alone won't do it for me though.