Many engines came stock without a shroud, sure it helps quite a bit, as does an electric fan, My 71 Fairlane with the 221 Inline6 (Argentine Car) came from factory no shroud and does not have problems in everyday traffic, the key is that without a shroud the fan should be quite close to the raidiator to effectively pull air
@@gopnikcommissar7665 Yes I too have had cars with no shroud from factory with an inline 6. That doesn't change that a fan without a shroud is doing just about nothing.
I live In Oklahoma where it gets pretty hot in the summer. I am an old man so I drove many cars with a regular fan, including many without a shroud. I never had any problem with overheating unless I had a water leak or water pump failure.
@@jeffmiller3150 By how it runs? Reading plugs is a good thing to do. Light grey to light brown means you are at 14.7 to 1 or close AFR. Black cloud behind you means too rich. I grew up in the 60s and 70s where real mechanic skills were desired. Every kid wanted to be a mechanic. You watched your tools or they would get stolen. I am guessing you were 90s born when all cars were computer crap.
@@jeffmiller3150 If you are concerned get an AFR meter and weld a bung into your exhaust for a sensor and it will happily tell you what your AFR is. They aren't even particularly expensive and the AFR is just a resistor bridge with some LEDs to divide the voltage. The most expensive part is the sensor or if you can't weld maybe getting the muffler shop to drill a hole and weld in the needed bung. Alternatively, as others have pointed out, you can just pull your plugs which at some level is better because if you have a particular cylinder that is off your AFR meter won't help a lot.
In ‘76 my ‘67 SS396 Chevelle with a 4 speed was knocking off 15mpg totally stock except for Hedman headers. The old QJ worked great and as long as those monster secondaries stayed shut the economy was good. We used to push those old points & carb systems over 8 grand on small blocks.
Points are crap for reliability compared to OEM electrobic ignition. I'm not much of a fan of cheap point to electronic upgrades, but OEM quality is usually pretty good. No point rubbing block to wear, no timing change, no adjustment. Instead you're rewarded with constant spark intensity and timing that always staya the same (yes I know the timing chain wears and that alters the timing). All points give you is the ability to replace them in the field but if you have a GM based 4 pin module you could carry one of those in the glove compartment and change that in the field in about the same time.
Probably much faster than changing points? Aftermarket had better heat tolerance so were less likely to fail but best method was to fit them externally on a heatsink. Not a fan of distributor up against firewall but I guess you lear to live with it?
I pitched my point ignition distributor and swapped in a HEI back in the day on my 327 Chevrolet. Best thing i ever did. No more screwing around with adjustments, setting up the timing, and it bloody worked.
Exactly this. The whole point of electronic ignition is that it always works correctly, never needs adjustment, never goes out of tune. Points aren’t as reliable, they burn out in the middle of nowhere and leave your car running like donkey. And you can still just carry your original points in case the pertronix burns out, which it won’t.
Over the years I upgraded two Delco V8 "window" distributors with Mallory Unilite breakerless conversions. I was completely sold on the deal and also did a conversion for a good friend. He's convinced we both made wise decisions.
Back in 1975 I put a Mallory Unilite Module in may 69 Camaro SS. I still have the car it has an HEI distributer in it now but there is a Pertronics distributer in a box it will get at some point.
The thing people seem to forget, is the more stuff you add on or modify, the higher probability of something failing causing lots of headaches, will be the cliche of “unreliable old car”. The only thing I would modify which applies to cars built before 1963, would be to ditch the road draft tube, replacing it with a PCV valve. While the road draft tube may have worked many years ago, doesn’t do anything to remove vapors from the engine and can cause seals to blow out if it were to get clogged or restricted with something.
Electronic ignition does not need to replace and adjust, and generally don't go bad. Also if it sits awhile the points corrode and need cleaning. But I am an advocate for a shroud it helps at idle and slow driving.
In 25 years of driving and a dozen-odd vehicles I've never once had an electronic ignition module fail on me, but every year I have to sand and gap the points on my old boat when I drag it out of the shed after winter. Sure, it's not hard, but if I had an HEI unit I wouldn't even have to mess with it. Garbage take overall -- electric fans, fuel injection, and disc brakes are all great, and superior to what they replaced. For proof you can just look at the tens of millions of vehicles of the road today that last way longer with way less maintenance than that old Ford was ever designed to do. Old stuff is cool, but new stuff is for the most part objectively better.
I think the reason people put efi on classic cars is because most of the mechanics that can work on carburetors are retired, it’s getting harder to get service for carbs and it’s a daunting task for people who don’t have any experience working on em.
People's inability to properly adjust tune or understand the way a system works is why so many people think old stuff just overheated or road walked or pulled to one side during braking .
My modern vehicles ignition has never left me stranded. Neither has the points that was on the 283 in my Chevelle or the HEI on the 350. I'm guessing the 408 stroker gen 3 I'm putting in jt will be just as reliable.
Electronic ignitions perform flawlessly for years. Sure, when they go, they go and you have to replace them, like anything else. Old kick-start Harleys is where I discovered the difference. I've seen more than one old Harley transformed from an unreliable Garage Queen with points and condenser to one of those magical starts-the-first-kick-every-time machines because of electronic ignition. Undersized pulleys are for high performance engines that spend most of their time at high RPMs, so that whatever that belt is powering still spins at a closer-to-stock speed, preventing wear and failure. Racing stuff may not always be optimal for everyday street use.
I completely agree. Points will always get you home. A matchbook in the glove box is all you need : the striker to clean the points, the cover to gap them and you're on your way. When an electronic ignition goes out - and I've had three of them fail - you're done. And I'll keep my Carter AFB, thank you. The one thing I cannot stand on old muscle cars is 16 inch or larger wheel and tire combinations, the look is absolutely hideous.
Replacing the points with a pertronix was exactly what I did with my 1973 Thunderbird with a 460. It has never run so good. And I do know how to set points. I keep a set of points in the trunk just in case anything goes awry or they drop an EMP and none of this digital stuff works, but give me the pertronix anytime over a set of points.
Yes I've put them in a vw , old porsche (vw) and someones 60s mustang and currently an older f100 without issue. No fiddling around . I've had my share of fun with points on vehicles and previous military equipment
But if a emp was used your electrical system would not work. You could bury replacement parts as a backup but our world would be dark as nothing electrical would work
I replaced points with electronic because I was tired of them oxidizing and having to file them often. I went to sniper EFI because I took my carburetor to two different shops and they couldn't get it to run correctly and nobody wants to teach how to tune them. And when the fuel dries out of carbs it leaves a powdery residue and plugs up the carb meaning more tearing them down and maintenance. Just wasn't worth it anymore for me.
Tend to agree with most of what you've said but you loose me with points and condenser, I could not disagree more. I lived with points and condenser for a couple of decades because that's all there was, but once electronic ignition conversions became available I've converted everything from small engines (lawnmowers, chainsaws) to street vehicles. I would never, (I try not to say never), but I mean never again have a point and condenser ignition nor have I ever had an electronic conversion go bad.
They build an all-out BEAST of an engine, while keeping the transmission, rear-end, and, especially, the brakes, stock. They wind up what they deserve in the end.
The biggest advantage of an electronic ignition system over a points set up is that electronic ignitions vary the dwell. That is why many systems use a full 12v to the coil (HEI GM systems). They can help ignition components last longer as they don't have un-needed voltage at lower rpms and they can saturate the coil better at high rpms for better top end power, plus everything in between. Aftermarket ignition boxes and ignition modules often do not have as broad of a range as the factory units so I always try and get either a factory unit or a very high quality aftermarket. On Mopars I use the FBO brand that has microprocessor technology instead of the old school transistor units. I'm assuming Ford has something similar available. Ford's electronic ignitions from the later '70's and '80's work really well on stuff I've seen.
With few exceptions all coils are 6v coils not 12v. Some are internally ballasted but most are externally ballasted. If you want a full 12v coil that will hold up you have to buy one or get something where the coil is integrated like the HEI system. To my knowledge installing an GM HEI does not vary the dwell. The one I have is a distributor with an electronic trigger and a coil in the cap. There are no additional smarts. In response to distributors not managing high RPMs most vehicles do not have a high RPM issue especially old american iron which has a low top RPM. My old Datsun 240z, with a redline of 6500RPMs, had a points distributor and it held up to that red line just fine. I later put in a built 280zx motor with an electronic distributor. Left me stranded 300mi from home with only one shop 60mi away having a replacement. Fortunately (this was before cell phones) someone driving down the back road I was on stopped and got me to a parts store and back. After that I always carried a very expensive spare in the glovebox.
@@danielboughton3624 I copied this for you so you can understand how the HEI system works. I only mentioned HEI systems because I assume the Dura Spark and Mopar systems work the same but I'm not positive as I am a GM tech with 39 year experience. This is from the article; The Lost Art of Servicing GM HEI, published in Hemmings, March 26th, 2024. Another unique feature of HEI is a dwell period that responds to changes in engine speed. Identified as an expanding dwell, the saturation time of the coil is controlled by engine rpm. At idle, an HEI system will experience a dwell time of 10 to 15 degrees and will increase to 30 to 35 degrees by 2,500 to 3,000 rpm. The ignition now has the output when the engine needs it-at high speeds and under load. In a points system, it would take 10 milliseconds for the current to reach maximum with a coil that has 2.6 ohms of resistance. The primary windings of an HEI coil have only 0.5-ohm resistance, allowing maximum current to be reached in approximately 3.4 milliseconds. Because it takes less time to reach full coil potential, saturation can be obtained at much higher engine speeds. So this isn't my opinion or fantasy, it's how the damn thing works. Like it or not, a GM HEI distributor varies the dwell.
@@danielboughton3624 Also a 6 cylinder does not have to open and close the points as many times per one rpm as an 8 cylinder so it's usable rpm rang is increased.
@@1967davethewave Thank you for the response. I did a bit of poking but haven't found anything that explains exactly HOW they can vary the dwell. I have seen some reference to an external crank sensor as an input but that is perhaps for later HEI. I sure don't have one. Perhaps the issue I am having is the dwell is a function of RPMs and point gap (eliminated with the HEI). I can see the lower saturation time helping with increased output at speed but I don't see how you can change the actual dwell since it is a time based function of the trigger which is solely based on RPMs and how many times you fire. Some articles also claim the whole action is to cool the coil at lower speeds. What are your thoughts on that?
@@1967davethewave My HEI is on a 6cyl. It is a low RPM engine so the HEI probably does not add much value in terms of a hotter spark. It was certainly not a notable change. One thing electronic ignition is reported to do that has not been mentioned is help with bushing wear and the related scatter on a points distributor.
I bought a 1973 Ford F100 and my points quit after 100,000 miles. Got a set of points and condenser out of my glove box installed them on the side of the road and went on my way.
Former restorer here. - I totally get wanting to keep something stock. It works, it's simple, and often much cheaper to maintain. I think a car should suit the drivers needs. The reason I prefer resto-mod over stock is to improve the capabilities. My 66 Caprice has 4 shocks in the rear for better cornering, I swapped out the TH350 for a 700r4 to get a very much needed overdrive, I did the 4 wheel disc for better braking (even going backwards), and easier maintenance. - I hate messing with drum brakes. 😃 Running a 355 built for alcohol at 13:1 with a long duration cam and the motor runs cleaner inside than any stock one I've had. I'm still running Mallory Unilite components from the 80's. Absolutely love them.
Points vs Electronic ignition. Simple. I couldn't get my 327 running smoothly, even after point replacement and hours of tuning. An aftermarket HEI fixed it immediately. There's a reason we went from flathead V8's to OHV to OHC. Better performance. Your engine, your choice. PS: You mean thank you ConAgra farm lobby.
I just retired from trucking after 40 years. I've seen a LOT of innovation and change ... One thing is disc brakes on trucks. In this application, they're great - they have better stopping power than the drums, and they're less likely to overheat and fade. One interesting thing is the size of the front brake rotors and calipers (and pads) - they are MASSIVE, compared with the other 8 sets!!
LOL its funny how people look at the past and forget the bad. "the good old days" points were fine in the good old days when a engine would last 100,000 mile and be useless fouling plugs and burning oil at 130,000. You were expected to at least clean the points every few 1000 miles and change the cap rotor point and plugs every 10,000. then of coarse rebuild the carb and rebuild the suspension that would barley last 30,000 miles Also the problem the petronix has on fords is fords use a resistor wire and people dont read the instructions stating the petronix needs 12-14.5 volts. Points are awful you can set them perfect and they degrade from there. Also if you have enough spring pressure to rev rpms they wear out the rubbing block. factory ford duraspark ignitions are terrible the boxes are always failing and the spark past 4000 rpm is weak. There made CHEAP for max profit like many OEM parts were back in the day. Now a car will run 300,000 + with surprisingly little maintenance. Why because honda / toyota made good cars in the late 70's and forced the American car makers to build better cars into the 90's
100% agree. Honda made cars that could exceed the 1973 EPA regs while 'Detroit' wanted at least 10 years to catch up. Both Honda and Toyota have made some real dogs since that period though (starting around 2000 they started getting worse and worse) In my experience, I like OHC, much simpler than push rod motors. Problem is, Honda hasn't made a decent cam chain tensioner system since late 1970's (starting around 1978) They also pioneered 'wet belt' system, it's designed to fail
@@1crazypj if it were not for Honda's and Toyota we would be driving Vegas. I have seen many Hondas and Toyotas hit 300,000 with min maintenance. even late versions. its not just the EPA regs Detroit intentionally made disposable care (planed obsolescence) The imports made then look really bad now they make cars that can go 300,000+ but are so loaded with electronics' and sealed systems also very thin stressed castings they are impossible to "rebuild like the 60's cars. Its there latest angle for planed obsolescence. Ps there is a toyota 4 runner on mats of road recovery with over 300,000 now they cut it up into rock crawler and beat the out of it but it keeps on running
@@1crazypj Ps if you work in auto repair remember your only seeing the broken ones. and just decent maintenance would have avoided most of those issues.
@@tomhutchins1046 Yeah, some of them are great even today but Honda have had some real disaters. I always get the 'dogs' so I guess I am biased 😁 I bought a Mazda B2300 in 2004, did first oil change at 3,000 miles then deal did first 'official service at 6,000. I know it's a Ford Ranger with slightly modified 'box' (flared around rear wheels) Anyway, it's now done over 120,000 miles with mainly just oil changes (had an O2 sensor go out and coil failed few months ago on No. 1 cylinder) Apart from the first gear being a little 'crunchy' (from new no worse or better ?) it's running quite well,. I keep saying I'm going to build the '76 Pontiac Formula 400, it's been in pieces far too long
The biggest issue with modern cars is they are pretty much a total if anything major goes wrong (computerized transmission) or if they are more than 10yrs old. The difficulty of sourcing parts for aging vehicles or getting the damn part out of something like a newer BMW or Audi makes them junk once they start to need maintenance. I am currently working on two 90's vehicles and it has taken more time to just get the intake manifold off of either of them than it would take me to pull the engine on any of my older vehicles. The other things ignored with modern ignitions is that there isn't just a points or condenser to go bad. A failed crank sensor can leave you on the side of the road, a failed ignition module can leave you on the side of the road, a failed COP on a cylinder can do significant damage while you drive home, etc. Sourcing these parts can take days with most auto parts stores not keeping stock on the shelf. Modern engine systems are hands down a better experience but when they break they are considerably more work and $$ to diagnose and repair. This also, where I live, means you have to locate a mechanic which are rare as hens teeth. If your car is new enough and ideally under warranty you can take it to the dealer but if it is more than 5-10 years old (depending on the vehicle) you are going to have to do it yourself.
Disc brakes most definitely do not last longer. Drum brake shoes generally have longer life than disc brake pads and drums persisted in common use well well WELL into the age of disc brakes being common OE equipment for a reason. Drum brake systems are very reliable and while disc brakes inarguably have advantages, drums are a trusted, tried and true brake setup and even to this day are common on 2500 and up pickups, and still at all wheels on semis and tractor trailers.
@@jimsmith9819 Bro I work on heavy duty pickups for a living AND got my education on highway tractors - disc brake calipers are more failure prone and disc brake pads wear out much faster than drum brake shoes. You owning a heavy duty pickup with four wheel discs doesn't magically erase the fact that highway tractors to this very day still use drum brakes at all wheels and just a few years before your truck was built, my FRIEND'S Dodge Power Wagon came factory with four wheel drums. And rear drum brakes are still OE standard on nearly all dually pickups to this day. Do YOUR research bozo.
I understand the old-skool perspective of your rant, but point systems went away for really good reasons. I grew up replacing, gapping and setting the dwell on those. It sucks, and when they start floating or pitting, stuff goes sideways. Pertronix makes great stuff. The wide cap prevents arcing with high-energy coils. The distributor is kept at the back to prevent water contamination when rain blows through the radiator. Plug and play fuel injection is the best improvement you can make to any classic engine. Carbs work good. FI works better, producing more power, better mileage, easier starting and the perfect metering for all RPM's and loads.
Wrong! The distributor belongs under the water pump, like on the mid-90s Corvette and Roadmaster! Locating it there will automatically wash it periodically, when the water pump goes bad. A second distinct advantage is that water can splash onto the distributor from the road and wash the dust off, something that is exceedingly difficult to do with a top mounted distributor. Yes, yet another GM engineering breakthrough.
In the case of Chrysler products, the factory service manual has a 2 page spread detailing every aspect of the cooling system for all drive train combinations, emissions packages etcetera, and it goes into great detail. What do you think the odds of your car after 60 years having the correct diameter water pump impeller and blade count, it all matters. And contrary to current thought, lots of big blocks never had fan shrouds, unless they had optional final drive ratios, then they also got the larger capacity radiator. All the combinations were thoroughly tested, in all geographic zones, and they worked!
The big fad I cannot understand is how everybody nowadays puts those anachronistic oversize mag wheels on classic cars, typically a 55 to 57 Chevy. Every old car you see on Facebook, has those weird looking mags. The old cars commonly have anachronistic paint colors and body lowering, too. It's weird to me, like a picture of Bonnie and Clyde holding AR15's and talking on cellphones. I cannot understand why people do these things to classic cars. Those wheels must be expensive, too
No, points do not work fine. That erratic spark eats plugs, cap and rotor, all of which got changed every 15-20K miles and that bad spark will destroy pistons in high performance, wish I did not know this. Electronic ignition systems parts last 100K+ miles. Fixed/clutch fans do the least when you need them the most and waste power, fuel and belts. My electric fans rarely turn on and stop over heat. I saw a friend of my dads nearly lose an arm by one and I lost a rare hood and inner fender from a busted fixed fan. As to MSD, a weak spark at high rpm resistance destroys pistons, msds definitely help high performance. I have never had an electric fan, pertronix or msd fail in many years of use. What you should be encouraging is 3 point restraints, by far the greatest life saver ever. The entire fleet has electric fans, ignition, front disks and 3 point restraints for only one reason, they're better.
I agree with everything but the electric fan. There are 2 typs of clutch fans one it basically a slipper design. Yes there not very good . the other looks almost the same but sometimes has a coil on the front actually senses heat. my 95 ram 12 valve has one also my 64 300 k. the fan clutch actually senses heat. On a really hot day you can hear it come On. many of the cars in the 60's and 70's used them. I wouldn't use one on an engine over 6000 rpm or even 5000 consistently. People think electric fans are free energy but when you turn them on that alternator is working hard. Then of coarse in racing you shut the fans off make a pass then turn them on. But for reliability on a classic car or street /track performance car those clutch fans are hard to beat. I have had electric fans quit at the worst possible times. You know why you see all those PT cruisers junked? The electric fans stopped working and the average person doesn't catch it.
A good strong msd or whatever system even helps bone stock classic cars the difference is big. The OEm's spend all the money on super ignitions for a reason.
@@tomhutchins1046 I even use the cheap fans and drive my cars a lot. Perhaps because I do a lot of work to make my engines run cool the fans don't do much. Is that falcon a sprint? Sucks that the OEMs don't make simple durable like that any more. I don't believe their claims no market per the demand for those simple little rangers.
@@danontherun5685 You obviously were not around back in the day. LOL You could tell a falcon or Fairlane mustang back in the day they squeaked when hitting bumps. The front ends were worn out at 20,000 miles especially the inner pivots on the upper a frames. People would torch holes in them to add grease fittings. they also had guaranteed exhaust leaks on the 6 cylinders because they had 8 foot exhaust hangs by 2 studs and a donut. Sounded like a tractor. The rear ends on the stick shift ones were good for maybe 20,000 miles everybody would go to the junk yard and get the automatic ones to replace it and end up with gears too high. They were terrible by todays standards. It seemed like there was a gas station on every corner with repair bays not mini markets. There were also mom and pop auto parts stores and small machine shops every were. sat morning there would be lines of people trying to buy parts to patch up there classic cars to get to work Monday really. oh and safety the wrecks involving those cars back in the day were gruesome really bad.
@@tomhutchins1046 You must be a young feller from a different planet. I bought my first 57 ford in 1968, still have 2 of them and had well over 100 cars and trucks. The only car I ever bought new was my wifes 2017 Escape that just got economically totaled at 51K easy miles, bad trans. No sentient being would grease or torch a suspension bushing. How do you not know dry suspension bushings have always been deliberate? Front suspensions usually made it to 100K miles depending on climate and service. OEMs quit grease fittings and suspension failures are as common as they ever were and extremely expensive to fix. I recently bought an 82K mile 59 bird from the original owner with complete service records to new, no mechanical work. It has a cracked exhaust manifold and leaking vacuum modulator. Before it I had a 1960 bird. I rebuilt the front end at 132K miles and the engine and trans at 174K miles. Pre 70s American running gear commonly did 100K+ miles but failed only because the oil was terrible, no service and down draft tubes didn't work. And the reason people lined up for parts was they could fix the cars themselves. Now all just wait their turn to get bent over. Economically totaled running gear is now very common at low miles. Here's where you're really wrong, no restraints was the cause of higher fatality/injury rates. 3 point restraints are the biggest life save ever. 2 years ago my 60 bird got knocked into a parked full size SUV at 65 mph. No seat belt and just a minor black eye and drove it home with zero damage from the firewall back. The SUV rear tire pushed the driver seat into the steering wheel and would have killed people. I consider squarebirds are of the safest cars ever built due to special construction and mass. Crush zone is propaganda to sell cheap low mass plastic that are economically totaled by scraped bumper covers, yup I didn't fall for the covid theatre or biden either. Go ahead and try the malibu/59 chev crash test on me. Better yet see archive pics of car wrecks to see they didn't suffer cabin damage anymore than current units, even prewars. Since 2004 I've only driven cars older than 1960, because I can.
Drum brakes are fine until one of the parts inside lets go or the wheel cylinder pops. Guess how good they are then? Disc brakes are better because fewer parts means fewer opportunities for failure. Plus, they work better!
I agree mostly, points do wear but I'm sure you're not using it as daily driver so they will last way longer, unless you leave key on alot , can cause point arcing, I found that out when I was younger, and I do rec a shroud, simply for safety, another thing I learned the hard way!
I agree 100% and I am living proof because I got sick of junk electronic parts that burn out and went back to points. I just recently rebuilt an old prestolite dual point for my car and that's what I'm running now, it's in my videos. I don't know what the hype is with ignitions that cost well over a grand for a engines that ran for decades with points and no issues except for occasional maintenance. No one knows how to tune their engine anymore and I guess that MSD (multiple spark discharge) is the answer for them maybe? I can run my dual point to 6500rpm and it won't skip a beat. I'm not even going to get started about the fuel injection and the cost lol As I said, no one knows how to tune anymore. Great subject 👍
Yes, totally agree. I do like hei though. I had one burn out on me years ago so I went to the junk yard and got a couple extra modules for the glovebox. Never blew another but its really quick to plug in a new module and drive away. They make them for all brands now pretty much too.
Nah, I always liked them and never had any issues with them other than a great running engine that can handle more rpm's than a single point and stock electronic ignitions.
Pertronix main claim is eliminating the troublesome points condenser setup. I have one on an International loader tractor and figured out a nasty little problem: the tractor sits in an unheated shed and when it's any less than 10⁰ above the tractor cranks harder (most anything does) But I found it would crank and crank until the (new) battery gave up, and I'd have to jump it or pull out the charger/ starting unit. The slightest boost and the tractor started on the first couple cranks. I confirmed with the local shop ( works on lots of classics and a genius with odd electrical issues) that the Pertronix isn't getting enough voltage when the starter is pulling so hard. It's cold blooded but starts relatively easy with points. Pertronix is great but there are some pitfalls. Agree with you, besides the character of the classic is worth something in itself!
The pertronix unit has a 1V drop through the semiconductor switch. 1V less means a lot less current for fluxing the coil especially on a 6V system. Clean points have almost zero resistance and about 0.1V drop.
@@frederickcwinterburn1837 Yes the minute you clean them perfectly then when you start the car or store the car with points its down hill from there. Do you also believe a model T is a great commuter car?
The mods I hate the most are LS swaps, disc brake conversions, and those hideous oversized modern rims people like to put on classic car. All that crap looks so out of place on a classic car, and none of really helps a car's drivability that much.
Then don't do those mods! LS swaps are for people that want an easier engine to work on, cheap power, and because they are gear heads that know how to do a swap. Lots of scary videos of people keeping drums and trying to stop a high HP car. I agree, wheels over 18" are ugly.
Andrew, thanks for the comment. I have struggled for the last year over the wheel thing as I need to change from 4 to 5 lug. The consensus out there is "go to 17" for tire selection" but I just can't bring myself to live with that look. I've finally conceded to sticking with 15" so the car looks 'right'. Video on that coming in a few months.
If you install a roller motor, you will need a steel gear on the distributor. A 1985 mustang GT distributor comes with said gear, and you can use a 20 buck GM 4 pin igniter and a TFI coil. You get to not use points and ballast resistor, skip the duraspark box, and get a killer spark that will not poop out in upper RPMs. I got a 1 wire alternator, and a mini starter. Also used an electric fan. Yes...if you want to keep all the 60s tech in there it will work, but I didnt want to. I retain rear drums for reasons you stated, and will never swap out my carb. It works perfect.
The only deal with Carbs is the Fuel you can buy and the miles you’re going to drive it. I learned the lesson that you should clamp the in coming fuel line and run the carb out of gas for lay-up. ETOH is great for drinking, not so good for storing for engine fuel.
@@mongrelmotorsports More than likely its the quality of the belt. Also one of the problems with a Vbelt system. They went to a serpentine design for a reason. Its always easy to look back thinking oh the good old days and think they were so much better forgetting all the problems. Find a belt with a grooved back there much better.
With the fan belt pulley, I think you'll find that rubber doesn't grip aluminium anywhere near as well as steel. That's why push bikes with steel wheels use rubber brake pads and push bikes with alloy wheels use plastic brake pads.
As to points vs electronic ignition, with points the weak link is the condenser. A bad condenser will burn points causing a weak to no spark, and like the electronic ignition it can fail on a whim. Returning to the points, heat can cause the spring to weaken causing float and sticking which leads to misfires. Lastly, in performance situations, at high revs points can float even when new. As to fuel injection, it has long been far superior to carburators. From the 60's with the fuel injected Corvettes, though temperamental, the Rochester mechanical fuel injection far outperformed the 4bbl's of the day. And on modern cars has led to great fuel milage in cars that originally were gas hogs. Your rant sounds all to familiar to me. I have an acquaintance who continually gripes about computer controlled auto's, but keep in mind that during the muscle car era, about 500 was the ceiling for HP and yet today's computer controlled vehicles are knocking on the door of 1000 HP and achieving fuel milage rivaling much lower HP engines. Granted, not everyone is savvy enough to properly tune an electronic controlled vehicle, but there is nothing wrong with a person desiring to bring their classic car up to 21 century technology.
Agree to all, but one point. Cooling, fan and shroud. Hear me out. I went with a fan with a built on shroud that allows it to pull air through the entire core. Keep in mind we have added AC as well. We were able to remove the fan blade of course and the water pump lasted for over 20yrs. Life of the water pump is increased when you remove the weight of the spinning fan, and it does add some HP back, there will be less lost through the added amperage on the alternator. 6:24
electric fans require upgraded charging and overall electrical system work while a stock clutch fan with properly fitted shroud takes only slightly more horsepower to run and pulls WAAAAY more air if you have or want to run an AC
@@jasonkaiser5150Exactly. I installed a big radiator and dual electric fans with a shroud on a temp controller with a manual switch back in 2019. Never had problems. Look at how many new cars, bikes, utv's have electric fans. They work very well.
Thanks for the video. But my opinions are different. Steel pulley, ok. Points? For cheap, I prefer the oem duraspark 2. Carb? For a car that gets driven little, yes. If I drive it a lot I'm going efi. 69 years old, working on cars since I was 14. Spent 82-88 at Ford dealership. Cool to drive the mustangs as they evolved. But we had the escort, and 6.9 diesel too. 😢 Thanks for the rant! Be well my friends.
A fan shroud does help with cooling the engine though. It helps the fan pull cool air through the radiator. I totally agree with everything else you said. As for a car not having a parking brake, handbrake or emergency brake, as that part of a car has three things it can be called, the device is very much needed when parking on a hill, especially for vehicles with a standard transmission, an automatic trans that says ouch when the weight of the vehicle is laying on the parking gear, or in case of a car losing its brakes and needing the parking brake in that terrifying case of an emergency.
I keep a set of points in the glovebox to fall back on, but keep a Pertronix in the distributor. Why? Because condensers fail too often, and points need regular adjusting and replacement. Yes, Pertronix fail, and I have gone through about 3 of them in 15 years. I also use a CDI box. Why? Because I see real benefits of a stronger, and longer spark. If I were to pull that kind of juice through points, it would burn them out pretty quickly. But if the Pertronix (or points) just sends a low voltage trigger to the CDI box, I get a very strong spark, and dont burn out the distributor.
Depends on how one uses the car. A lot of what you say is true. If you cruise in 90 plus degree heat in traffic an electric fan is a no brainer. I see a lot of classics on the side of the road or cruising with the hood open a bit due to overheating. The maintenance log on my comet from the original owner had several overheating repairs, including having to pull the heads. Since I installed an electric fan with a 195 degree thermostadt, never a problem in gulf coast heat.
Rear disk brakes are better because they are smooth and predictable in emergency situations or hp driving. Drums are self energizing so they tend to grab suddenly. Also disks are some much more durable and easy to service.
My opinion for what it’s worth. If you plan on keeping your classic car stock or pretty damn close to stock. I agree with everything you just said. All the stuff you took off. Well, that’s race car stuff not cruise around stock engine stuff. I have no problem with points. But they do have there limits. That’s why they came out with duel point ignition. You start hitting 6500 and above RPM’s, lower the gear ratio, add lots of HP. That all kind of requires Better ignition (MSD) Better Cooling (shroud) Better carburetor (Holley) For example. I agree with you about all the EFI crap. I love carburetors. And I just hate seeing LS classic car swaps.
351c4v/429cj guy here: points: pertronix 1 since 1987. never ever had an issue. strong spark. Pulley: it's all about the way its installed AND the right flat belt if groove is flat for surface contact.(I do not run these but helped install) Sniper: Sorry but you know zip about them. the improvement is all over the place IF installed properly, my engine now uses 1/3 less fuel than before with me not having a different right foot. At cruise near 1/2 as with previous different 650/750 carbs. There is no programming unless you want to, you can simply enter what you want or move some curves. Many sensors?? Only one extra, the 0.2 sensor. Harness is minimum. To install them you need read the doc. which is what many do not do! Best investment I did in over 3 decades. Rear rotors: I kinda agree for my mustangs, but if you have driven a wilwood on all 4, well, that's a totally a different braking experience, but yeah, it's pricey and I haven't done it for this reason. Otherwise, they are much more than a cosmetic improvement as you suggest.
Every time Ive worked on a car with Pertronix they have had without exception has a weak yellow spark barely exceeding that which is found with a stock points system. By contrast I use a shortened primary resistance wire with the Ford Duraspark system and am rewarded with a bright blue spark which sometimes exceeds 1 1/2 inches in length. The only caveat is always using a high quality ignition module. You can keep your Pertronix, I will never use it. I also exclusively use Edelbrock (formerly Carter/Federal Mogul) carburetion, avoiding Holley whenever possible due to power valve failures a well as having gaskets below the fuel level.
@@donreinke5863 Let me add some water in my own wine... I have these Pertronix P1 for 3 decades and the spark is strong as if installed yesterday. Pertronix was the new kid in town at the time for pointless solutions. That having said, lots has probably changed in the manufacturing process. I know many had issues with defect P3's. So I can imagine there can be issues with the newer versions of the P1 that have probably undergone changes in the fabrication process/materials to save a buck or two. A trend really visible these days in aftermarket parts where new means nothing anymore due to lack of quality control.
@@FabriceClosier Another advantage to petronixs is it does not care about a little slop in the distributor bushings. Unlike points. I truly feel sorry for a company trying to make a living selling electronics to 'hobbyists'". Its like going to the zoo and giving a Swiss watch to a monkey (with instructions) and a warrantee.
With Pertronix , to answer your question is you do not have to adjust them every six months or deal with burnt or pitted point contacts , failed condensers . Pertronix or any factory electronic ignitions such as a Dura Spark II is a great advance in ignition and better spark . Yes points work good , as long as you buy NOS vintage sets if you can find them , today's auto parts points are pretty crappy as are the condensers. The MSD boxes are not always a bad idea . The issues are they fail often stranding you . With points you can usually get going with a screwdriver . So there is NOT only one view . It depends on the application . Your ford there could use a much better STOCK OEM FORD TFI e core coil and wires = Better spark , easier starts ,longer plug life . Yes your 130 hp 289 2 barrel doesn't need any fan shroud . But here you are with your aluminum radiator . Cmon pop for the original since that's your rant . Original is good , but to say that the original manufactures knew what they were doing .. your right , keeping COSTS DOWN , hence horrible drum brakes and single reservoir master cylinders that lock up , induce uncontrolled skidding and accidents , nothing great and nothing safe about that . Only when forced to do so by safety standards , did disc brakes and dual master cylinders start to become standard equipment . Far better braking and far shorter and controlled panic stops . Your probably a bias ply tire is better cause they knew what they were doing person as well ? There are many many things unnecessary that people do , but hey it's their car and really not up to you right ? Fan shrouds are a great help on every vehical , hence why they all use them especially in traffic . Not your falcon or my 66 mustang 200 6 perhaps . In any case nope rear disc's are not needed on your falcon or many other cars or trucks , drums work pretty well on the rear , and the conversions are kits , weird rotors you have to special order with some oem mishmash parts to make it work, plus alot of other mods , so yes not so great usually . Sniper EFI and all of those are a huge ordeal , cost way too much, and are 1980s technology . Carbs work and are pretty easy to fix on the roadside if you breakdown . No real flaming here , but let's not try to say that 70 year old car technology is better, or they did it right , they did what it was for the times . BTW those aluminum pullys you took off were for looks and yeah wrong diameter and does not correctly grip the belts . Abit of condesending tone there and you were not right about everything you wanted to say .
@@mongrelmotorsports That's not the general opinion from ford types. And my experience. If your going to run a duraspark pick the one with the blue plastic around the plug the other's had emission's ignition retard and strange settings built in. Even when the duraspark works it is really weak and RPM limited compared to even the orange Chrysler unit.
I agree 110%. Points work, carbs work, etc. They're simple to fix, etc. Look at the electronics they put on today-> always breaking, no way to fix enough to ya to town etc. I like a shroud for hand protection. And I agree with rear disc.
I am 76 years old and lived with points and carbs for years. They were a constant source of maintenance and problems. My 52 Chevy 3100 has a 5.3 Chevy engine with factory fuel injection. I wouldn't have an engine with points and a carb. I replaced the rear brakes on the truck with disks, which greatly improved braking. This was probably because I was incompetent in setting the proportioning valve for the disk/drum combination that I bought the truck with. Also the rear discs come with an emergency brake, didn't cost too much and were pretty easy to install. Compared to drums discs are simpler, easier to maintain, and work better. I agree with that stock radiators and fans always worked just fine. I also agree that EFI conversion kits are very expensive, and seem to require quite a bit of work to install and get to work right. Bottom line is its all situational. If you don't mind the maintenance associated with points and carbs, they might be right for you. I use my pickup as a daily driver and want it to start easily and run smoothly every time, and require minimal maintenance, so a "modern" engine is the right choice for me.
If you absolutely have to have EFI in place of a carburetor, for a driver at least, an OEM setup, scavenged from a wrecked but intact car, is going to be your best bet.
hey this guy is right on the money,although i agree about the mrg fuel regulator sitting on the manifold thats a no no. the garbage fuel we have nowadays is why some folks convert to EFI but all you really need is a phenolic spacer under the carb and maybe an electric fuel pump with a decent regulator and the hot starting issue will mostly be resolved. i drive old ford work trucks and never really needed the disc brake conversion.unless you racing the drum system is fine -If maintained correctly.
My big rant is chopping tops. I hate that. and slamming EVERYTHING to the ground. Especially trucks. WHY?????? It looks incredibly stupid. And don't even get me started on the 28 inch wheels.
LOL, can't disagree. My personal hatred is shaved door handles. Why do people hate door handles so much? Once again, adding complexity and a failure point to a car for the sake of vanity. But those things are personalizations for style more than some alleged mechanical improvement.
@@schlomoshekelstein908 Congratulations. You win the "Dumbest reply on RUclips" award for the next hour. The FIRST lowered truck I ever saw was in the early 70's and I can assure you the perp was a 100% European descent paleface. You cant go to a car show or cruise anywhere in this country without seeing a truck lowered by a "white person".
@schlomoshekelstein908 save the racism cletus. Here in the Midwest, pale male slammed dually trucks are the rage. Besides, Mexican hydraulic 'switches' aint just lowered. Stick to your dodge product.
My take on distributors I run a modified 300 6 with an hei unit The truck is an 83, federal emissions made in Canada Came with TFi and the feedback carb I've done fuel economy and 0 to 75 times due to this being my daily driver Points is great because it's simple but it's still limited I have to run 035 plug gap to 045 Have to run a ballast resistor Anytime I went over 045 gap it would destroy the points nomatter where I would set their gap to So I tested pertronix which gained over the points but not much, was great to remove the ballast Allowed the truck to run at 055 gap but would struggle and lose spark over 060 I moved to my current hei unit and installed an msd 65?K coil I'm currently running 080 gapped plugs and soon to 090 and 100 for my experiments My results over 10 or more tests All at 65mph cruise at 2200 rpm Points at 040 gave back about 24mpg Pertronix 25 055 gap Then with hei 055 about 24.5-25mpg 065 25.5-26 075 26 080 26.5 Again this is with a modded 6 I'm running vacuum bleed similar to how Luke's carb cheater works The valve was opened 100% each time bleeding off 3.5Inhg The only variable being plug gap and distributor setup
Ahhh, you caught that. And I don't disagree at all. That one is a placeholder until I come up with something that doesn't just breathe hot engine bay air. It bugs me, but it's chrome and looks purty, so there's that.
And here I am a guy wishing it was legal (here in scandinavia) to put a carb and points ignition on a jeep cherokee xj. And drum brakes rear are just awesome (unless one drives like a speedfreak) always lubing up the rear disc brakes a few times a year on my own and wifes car because they are not used enough and sticking....
1. Theres more SBC's under old ford hoods than ford for a reason. 2. HEI is on point and runs hotter , easier to service , extends plug life and doesn't bounce at high RPM and just plain more reliable. 3. I agree on carbs , just use the right one for displacement, bigger ain't always better. Power and performance is a balancing game. 4.at least get a light weight flex fan, that bomber propeller sucks power at all RPMs and doesn't do any good at freeway speeds. BEST, go electric pusher , works when you need 'em, doesnt chop off fingers , doesnt suck HP and gets stuff out from under the hood that you have to worry about and work around.just a big win! 5.BRAKES. disc front, drum back, yep! And get the best you can ! Well worth every penny. 6.GET SOME BLOODY HEADERS! And cross overs on the straightest pipes you can .every bend sucks power. The least resistance improves mileage and performance. Quit being a car fudd , they built these things as cheap and quickly as they could to make money , theres tons of potential in these old engines , but they needed to just make the general public happy.
Agree except on headers...what a giant PITA they are most of the time. Leaks, burnt plug wires, difficult to install. The hipo small block manifolds on my car flow almost as well. I did add an H pipe too.
@@mongrelmotorsports No any exhaust manifold wont even get close to the performance of a long tube header. with a little thinking and a good quality set of headers most issues can be avoided.
@@mongrelmotorsports long tube headers are not the priority. 4 wheel disk brakes or at least front disks and a dual cylinder 5 lug wheels is. Mustang parts should fit. I seem to remember the 6 cylinder steering linkage was different. if you still have the 6cylinder rear those thing don't even hold up to the 6. A 57 -60 ford 9 inch is the correct width. or an 8inch out of a mustang.
I've run a March aluminum underdrive pulley set on my 332" stroker for about 26 years, no squeaks, and the V belt holds up well, even shifting the engine at 8500 rpm. With 11:1 compression and full 34 deg of timing by 1500 rpm, and with a very lightweight crank assembly and flexplate/converter, my throttle response is pretty quick, still no belt slippage. I would say the groove angles aren't matching up to the belt correctly on your setup, combined with the much greater mass of your mechanical fan that it had to turn, was your slippage issue. Mine doesn't even have p/s pump, so all it has to turn besides the underdriven water pump is the ultra lightweight pulleys and the alternator, which is also underdriven. As for MSD ignition, it is useful for performance, but for a low rpm street duty, I'd just run the stock motorcraft electronic ignition. It's pretty damn reliable. I've only had 1 MSD box failure in decades of using them, so they are pretty solid too. Nowadays, stuff is more likely to be made in china, so I'd be more inclined to go back to stock NOS parts. I still run a Race Demon Holley-style carburetor and make 530hp with it, lol I love carbs and I'm not a fan of fuel injection, but then I also still run an old solid flat tappet cam, too. Again, chinese crap makes modern flat tappets unreliable as hell, so the next engine I build will have a roller. As for the mechanical fan, they rob 20-25 or more hp, and I've seen them fail at 6000+ rpm and imbed a blade in the hood of a car, so I would never run one of the old style fans on any engine. But for a stock setup, a modern clutch style fan would work great, they don't rob much hp,(5 maybe?) and are reliable. But one consideration of an electric fan is the longevity of the water pump bearings and seals will improve without a fan bolted to it. Fans get dirty, so they'll rarely be perfectly in balance. As for rear drum brakes, I agree with your assessment too, I run a 1959 thunderbird 9" axle in my Mustang II, still with the stock drums, which are huge(11 inch?) and rear drums really work great, especially in a 2450 lb car, and believe me, it's seen high speeds(3.10 gears) and has stopped nicely. I built the car for road course racing, but I really just use it as a street car. Hell, my civic beater still has drums in the back, and they need less maintenance and last longer than rear discs, with all the moving parts covered and protected by the drums. Plus, the drum style parking brake is stronger and more durable. Interior view of my car revving.. Squeak free zone lol ruclips.net/user/shortsqtsW7Cy9ybc
There's nothing wrong with points ignition, but there's nothing wrong with electronic ignition either. I personally don't care for pertronix products (they're a bit cheesy in the quality department for my taste), but they get the job done. MSD is pretty good if you get a good old fashioned one but where a lot of people go wrong and cuss out MSD is when they try to be lazy and run all the points style wiring through it (the big resistor and/or the resistive ignition wire on Fords - it won't work well, don't do that folks!). And 2, MSD can't work under 9v so a lot of crank and no start problems are when the starter sags the voltage below 9v and the MSD box literally shuts off. That's not limited strictly to MSD, there's a lot of aftermarket electronics that shut off below 9v, MSD and Holley are just the common ones. Also, slapping 4bbl Holley double pumpers, single planes and ridiculously oversized cams in street cars, that mod destroys drivability. As far as fans go, if my car doesn't have a shroud when I get it and it overheats a bit in traffic, I go straight to electric and put the mechanical fan in my spare parts box. The AC will work a LOT better if you've got it, especially sitting in traffic when it's 103 outside. Carbs can go either way; if it's a classic you're putting 5,000 a year on that sits around a lot, TBI is the way to go, yes it IS that much better in that application. Carbs are not for the young, the uninitiated amateur.. or the lazy! But.. I love a good Carter AFB style or Quadrajet, none of that cheap Chinese Holley shit
At 9 volts you have other issues to worry about. Gm Hei's start to fail at around11 volts. A lot of racers "oval track) will try to run without an alternator and don't realize what's up.
@tomhutchins1046 yeah back in the bad old days the only way to get around that particular can of worms, if you weren't gonna run an alternator, those big boom boom bass audio capacitors did the trick, you didn't have to haul a big heavy deep cycle battery around the track (edit: just a small lightweight one). That was a pretty well-kept secret for a long time
@@Drmcclung LOL show me somebody that ran a cap instead of a battery. How did they start the car. Could you be confusing a magneto ignition like your lawn mower? Big caps? you do realize CDI stands for Capacitive discharge ignition? Yes with an alternator you can run a small battery and in the last 25 years many have run 16 volt battery's and alternators. The battery starts the car then acts like a long term Stable capacitor. There is no free energy something has to charge your caps which are very short tern storage. caps are usually used to dampen voltage surges they cannot produce power or even store power over the long run. Also anytime you disconnect a DC cap it with create a huge voltage spike. I have been around a long time. if you actually tried to do what you say you got nothing from it and were really lucky you didnt fry something. ALL pro race cars "other than older sprint cars with mags Have an alternator and battery for a reason.
@@Drmcclung Ps one of the tricks is to use the white wire on an mSD for your points and it really takes the load of the points and turns it into a trigger.
Bad parts is bad parts. Whether they are original equipment configuration are a more so called updated or modern configuration. And like you said, new is not always better.
You are right on about points ignition. I actually purchased the pertronix set for my 65 falcon 6, but changed my mind about installing it after reading and hearing about too many failures. I instead, stocked up on nos points and condensors at auto swap meets. Brands like filko, autolite and motorcraft. Wont use the new china junk. I drive my falcon as a daily driver and shes as reliable as when she was new!
for me rear disc swap is for ease of pad replacement an helps keeping axle/tire under the car/truck if stuff breaks. i like a carburetor over efi but having to rebuild a carb every 6 to 8 months over the fuel eating gaskets an anything rubber kind of sucks
Changing a 67 289 ign.system from point to electronic is easy,need the pieces for it,i had a 78 302 distr.and it fit perfect,just like it was made for it,and the car runs well too,having the wiring harness for the box and distributor makes it look stock.
@@mongrelmotorsports There were not very many factory ac's on falcons . I dont think i have ever seen a fan shroud on the older falcons. Also check the gap between the rotor and the cap terminal. those big caps were designed for more voltage than your points ignition can do. You dont need the big cap for points so its very possible its hurting not helping
Does it really matter what type of brakes you have??? These days everyone's driving distracted, staring at their cellphones & cracking up without ever touching the brake peddle anyway.
It mattered for me on my old Land Cruiser. The front leaf spring made adjusting the twin single leading cylinders a huge pain. I still have them on the back but did a bolt on conversion for the front. Explaining to someone how to adjust twin leading brakes is an exercise in frustration as well. Beyond that if you have to use the brakes often on a race track or coming down a steep grade the shoes will get hot more readily than disc brakes. In addition the drum brakes will grab with less pressure so you can run them w/o a booster but they can also lock up more readily and stay locked if you jab 'em hard and the stars align.
Twin cylinder drum brakes...had those on a Ford Courier. I wanted to inflict physical harm on the guy who designed those. And they didn't have auto adjusters, so I was under there once a month tightening them up.
I put an MSD pointless billet distributor in my car that can only run with a MSD spark box and an electric fan and aftermarket size radiator and in the end it was not because I thought it was bling or would make my car go faster but it was to compensate for tuning issues before I took the time to really sit and think about the root cause of the problems. The idle was rough, engine chugged on acceleration, car overheated etc. Once I took time to research how to do a basic carburetor tune with metering rods and springs and jets and idle adjust with vacuum gauge it idled and drove so much better it was like night and day. Then I rebuilt my engine and flushed out about 2 pounds of rust chunks from the block I went back to pulley driven fan and factory size radiator with no shroud and it does not overheat. I think for myself and many others they are trying to fix a problem by throwing parts and fancier new tech at it when just taking the time to get a decent understanding and a good tune up will save lots of time and money.
Most likely the problem with your under drive pulley and belt slipping is cause by two things. First, a worn belt, and second, the angle of the belt groove is either wrong, and/or it is too wide. Either instance will cause the belt not to have a very large contact pattern, and slip. Pulley groove angle should be 34 degrees for smaller pulleys such as your for A, B, or C series belts. The pulley groove angle for A, B, and C series belts varies from 34 to 38 degrees, with the smaller degree angle being for smaller pulleys.
HEI is so basic and its easy to carry spare parts and easy to change. I do run a carb though. But I disagree on the use of MSD boxes, they are not necessary and they burn out.
@@iancoachwerksllc Hei was designed to be a simple cheap factory way to make high voltage at low RPMs and thats all there good for. I have never had an MSD box burn out. Of coarse i read the instructions.
Ford Durafail ignition sucks, modules are failure prone. The modified for Ford GM HEI works wonders. 1 wire. Uses same ignition modules as early 80s GM cars. Dirt simple and reliable. Overall I like off the shelf stuff. If something goes wrong parts are readily available. Underdrive crank pulley can cause overheating in traffic. I despise those bicycle tires and rims people insist on ruining cars with. The HOOD look doesn't work on these cars, or any car TBH.
The only problem I ever had with Ford electronic was when I was turning a little 302 7200 on a regular occasion. I had more problems with the HEI. Didn't think much of either one's problems,because they're both easy to fix.
My 79 T/A was notorious for getting hot after a hard run so aftermarket upgrade for cooling was nice. The EFI is great for long distance drives that involve elevation change as well as other benefits. Drums are a royal pain in the ass to replace. No old school mechanic says " I love replacing and adjusting shoes."
@@mongrelmotorsports i have been running the same Hays Maganapulse electronic unit with Judson electronic magneto coil since 1975. no parts available for the Hays. ran on both chevy and pontiac. i have used HEI also. but that wouldn't fit with the tri power intake
Yeah idk it takes a rather significant elevation change to have a real. Noticable effect on Engine performance any change that does happen is negligible as far as mileage goes sure if I drove from fla to Denver fuel injection would certainly be the way to go obviously but for the most part most people are not going to jump in a classic car and travel the whole country it's just not the car to do that in the comfort alone is one reason nevermind the fuel economy part why drive the t/a when the Toyota is way more comfortable and gets 35 mpg it's a no brainer but for weekends and having fun of course the Toyota is not the car to drive so yeah putting fuel injection on a car it never came from the factory with is a waste of time and money as it's been proven that other than a better cold start there is really nothing to be gained not in performance or economy if so then the original carb and ignition system was lacking in some way big time ..
@@GlennManchester I've unfortunately felt said elevation change driving from Jacksonville FL to Cripple Creek CO. Terrible feeling driving up a 2 lane pass with a wall on one side and an absolute drop off down a mountain on the other with nowhere to turn around and your car absolutely struggling to breathe going 15mph in first gear. The thought of breaking down on that type of road with nowhere to pull off probably took a few years off my life. 😫
WARNING ⚠️ My good man: That fan you showed without a shroud on it sends chills down my spine because it reminds me of my co workers brother who was killed by a fan that looks identical to yours. He was leaning over the radiator and the fan didn’t have a shroud…one of the fan blades broke free and cut his neck open to the point where his head was barely attached to his body and he died almost instantly. Apparently the rivets let go or the thin metal of the blade fatigues and developed a stress crack…? Get a better fan. Put a shroud around that fan for the love of god.
Likely story, a story of a fan that goes for years with no incidents then when someone is leaning over it, it comes apart and kills somebody, I’m sure! lol 😮
A plastic shroud would offer zero safety. Can't say I've seen many steel ones. Yes, there are some fans that are prone to failure from age, especially plastic ones.
I love electric fans because it makes it quieter, cleans up room in the engine bay, but most importantly is it helps my cars heat up quicker in the winter. Although yes a clutch fan works great still.
The problems I usually see with electric fans is a lot of them are very poor at moving air, and wiring them up to work without a manual switch can be a bother. They do save a lot of space and won't chop your arm off when the engine is running.
Most people don't have the patience to learn how to make proper adjustments and maintain the old stuff, especially since most (even "professional") mechanics also don't and have been messing up carb, distributor, and points adjustments, by not following specified adjustment for the life of most of these old cars. If you know your ish, get a good carb and some good Raybestos shoes adjust it all as it should be and you'll be good to go. Dual master cylinder on a car with a single is the first mod I would do if it's not a concours car.
For me, I restore to stock from factory unless it's used for racing. Old cars need to be in an Everyday driving state condition. That means NO Problems when you turn the key.
I agree with most of everything you said. I have and 88 Mustang 5.0, and i did convert the rear brakes to disc, but i used factory SN95 components and the perking brake was already there. Stops a lot better then it did with the drums. Also I have a 83 F100 under restoration in a 1000 parts at the moment. Was thinking about converting to EFi but decided to stick with the 2 barrel carb . Worked good before and will be working good after reassembly . EFI is too expensive. I don't know what the obsession is with big horse power these days. Everybody wants to go fast on the street. For what?
My guess is that 95% of all classic car owners cannot change a set of points, and at every 3000 miles? Maybe half of their shops know how? Who has a dwell meter and a timing light anymore? Setting timing with no fan shroud? Ouch! The rest I can agree with. If you have a 150 hp engine, not much is needed to keep it happy. Nice work.
I'll agree most classic owners have no idea how to work on their cars which explains most mods and LS conversions. I still have my Craftsman dwell meter from when I was kid.
@oldman-zr2ru me too! Lol. Like a large horizontal calculator with a dial! I even have a backup to check accuracy of the first. Ok. Now I am laughing out loud!
If the points are right then the dwell is right. Dwell meters only were used for a short period of time because the electronics and points overlap was not particularly long. Beyond that you can set 'em by eye or with a matchbook cover or a biz card as suggested in the video and the car will run. Might not be perfect but it will get you on down the road. Having a spare for an electronic ignition module is quite a bit more expensive. Any way around it adding more complex systems like fuel injection with a pile of sensors and an aftermarket ECU does not increase the pool of mechanics that can work on your car.
@@Ghost_2366 You make a good point. If you are chasing more HP to get down the strip faster, that's a completely different goal. Most of the guys I know with classic 60s and 70s cars will never see a drag strip, yet they will spend $$ on brand name 'improvements' just for open hood cred.
Amen!! Everyone knows the guy that needs to rechip and mod. the intake for ( better) performance. Ya right. Auto manufacturers have spent millions engineering your car for optimal performance. The after market is often just reengineering what has been done already, just to sell you something.
In 1966 they spent about $50k engineering that car. Every innovation mandated by the govt was paid for in blood. Your premise is laughable. Any 2024 cars using points, carbs, no passenger side mirror? Steel dash, drum brakes?
Old technology becomes obsolete when better technology is developed. Just because it's original does not mean it's better... cars from the 50's 60s and 70s were high maintenance, low efficiency and low performance and had poor reliability. Anyone that thinks points are better? Needs their head checked..
@@sandervanderkammen9230 I don’t believe he said they were better, I think he said they were sufficient with regards to performance and reliability in the average hot rod/daily driver.
I agree with you on carbs. But give me one example where a pertronix gave out? Do you personally know someone. I've ran them for literally over 3 decades, not one problem. Points on the other hand, they are only get worse as soon as you fire-up the engine. And if you're that concerned, carry points in your glovebox.
I'm a huge fan of electronic ignitions but I had 2 Pertronixs give out on my '69 Super Bee. The first one was the basic Pertronix Ignitor system. I had used one on my '68 Charger years before and loved it. So when the first system failed on the Super Bee I replaced it with a more expensive Ignitor II. It lasted about 2 months and it failed. I researched it and Pertronix was having issues all over the place according to forums and RUclips. So I put a factory electronic ignition system on the Super Bee and it was fine for the next year until I sold it. Maybe this was just a temporary thing and I happened to be unlucky enough to have been caught right in the middle of it, this was 2016/2017, but I did have 2 failures right in a row.
The reason my car has points is the Pertronix lost it's smoke. Uncle Tony had one fail on his Charger which he documented on his channel. Like any electronic device, they are not infallible. And in fairness as I mentioned, I did run one on an FE Ford for over a decade and never had a problem.
For anyone who runs around in traffic, a fan shroud is highly recomended. Without a shroud, your fan is doing just about nothing.
Many engines came stock without a shroud, sure it helps quite a bit, as does an electric fan, My 71 Fairlane with the 221 Inline6 (Argentine Car) came from factory no shroud and does not have problems in everyday traffic, the key is that without a shroud the fan should be quite close to the raidiator to effectively pull air
@@gopnikcommissar7665 Yes I too have had cars with no shroud from factory with an inline 6. That doesn't change that a fan without a shroud is doing just about nothing.
I live In Oklahoma where it gets pretty hot in the summer. I am an old man so I drove many cars with a regular fan, including many without a shroud. I never had any problem with overheating unless I had a water leak or water pump failure.
Meh.@@gopnikcommissar7665
@@mitchelpinion1852a lot of times after years of driving , it's not uncommon to have a clogged radiator.
I agree with the carby thing.
No computer, no sensors, no “check engine” lights…
And carburettors run perfectly fine if they are in good order.
With out sensors and a check end light how do you know if it's too rich or to lean??🤷
@@jeffmiller3150 By how it runs? Reading plugs is a good thing to do. Light grey to light brown means you are at 14.7 to 1 or close AFR. Black cloud behind you means too rich. I grew up in the 60s and 70s where real mechanic skills were desired. Every kid wanted to be a mechanic. You watched your tools or they would get stolen. I am guessing you were 90s born when all cars were computer crap.
@@jeffmiller3150 If you are concerned get an AFR meter and weld a bung into your exhaust for a sensor and it will happily tell you what your AFR is. They aren't even particularly expensive and the AFR is just a resistor bridge with some LEDs to divide the voltage. The most expensive part is the sensor or if you can't weld maybe getting the muffler shop to drill a hole and weld in the needed bung. Alternatively, as others have pointed out, you can just pull your plugs which at some level is better because if you have a particular cylinder that is off your AFR meter won't help a lot.
In ‘76 my ‘67 SS396 Chevelle with a 4 speed was knocking off 15mpg totally stock except for Hedman headers. The old QJ worked great and as long as those monster secondaries stayed shut the economy was good. We used to push those old points & carb systems over 8 grand on small blocks.
Quadrabogs are great carbs, but very misunderstood.
Points are crap for reliability compared to OEM electrobic ignition. I'm not much of a fan of cheap point to electronic upgrades, but OEM quality is usually pretty good.
No point rubbing block to wear, no timing change, no adjustment. Instead you're rewarded with constant spark intensity and timing that always staya the same (yes I know the timing chain wears and that alters the timing).
All points give you is the ability to replace them in the field but if you have a GM based 4 pin module you could carry one of those in the glove compartment and change that in the field in about the same time.
Probably much faster than changing points?
Aftermarket had better heat tolerance so were less likely to fail but best method was to fit them externally on a heatsink.
Not a fan of distributor up against firewall but I guess you lear to live with it?
I pitched my point ignition distributor and swapped in a HEI back in the day on my 327 Chevrolet. Best thing i ever did.
No more screwing around with adjustments, setting up the timing, and it bloody worked.
Exactly this. The whole point of electronic ignition is that it always works correctly, never needs adjustment, never goes out of tune. Points aren’t as reliable, they burn out in the middle of nowhere and leave your car running like donkey. And you can still just carry your original points in case the pertronix burns out, which it won’t.
Over the years I upgraded two Delco V8 "window" distributors with Mallory Unilite breakerless conversions. I was completely sold on the deal and also did a conversion for a good friend. He's convinced we both made wise decisions.
Back in 1975 I put a Mallory Unilite Module in may 69 Camaro SS. I still have the car it has an HEI distributer in it now but there is a Pertronics distributer in a box it will get at some point.
Same here. HEI in the Chevelle 1998-2022. I'm building a 408 stroker gen 3 for it now.
The thing people seem to forget, is the more stuff you add on or modify, the higher probability of something failing causing lots of headaches, will be the cliche of “unreliable old car”. The only thing I would modify which applies to cars built before 1963, would be to ditch the road draft tube, replacing it with a PCV valve. While the road draft tube may have worked many years ago, doesn’t do anything to remove vapors from the engine and can cause seals to blow out if it were to get clogged or restricted with something.
Electronic ignition does not need to replace and adjust, and generally don't go bad. Also if it sits awhile the points corrode and need cleaning. But I am an advocate for a shroud it helps at idle and slow driving.
In 25 years of driving and a dozen-odd vehicles I've never once had an electronic ignition module fail on me, but every year I have to sand and gap the points on my old boat when I drag it out of the shed after winter. Sure, it's not hard, but if I had an HEI unit I wouldn't even have to mess with it. Garbage take overall -- electric fans, fuel injection, and disc brakes are all great, and superior to what they replaced. For proof you can just look at the tens of millions of vehicles of the road today that last way longer with way less maintenance than that old Ford was ever designed to do. Old stuff is cool, but new stuff is for the most part objectively better.
I think the reason people put efi on classic cars is because most of the mechanics that can work on carburetors are retired, it’s getting harder to get service for carbs and it’s a daunting task for people who don’t have any experience working on em.
Edelbrock makes a decent , easy to work on carb, I just love. Simple is best, when it comes to reliability
People's inability to properly adjust tune or understand the way a system works is why so many people think old stuff just overheated or road walked or pulled to one side during braking .
You lost me at points are better ignitions
Never had a set of point leave me high and dry. Can’t say that about E ignition
I don't think I said they were better. My point was the a/m electronic ignition isn't necessarily better, especially on a non-race car.
@@mongrelmotorsports Actually it is much better even in daily driver use.
@@triumph9252My experience is the exact opposite of yours.
My modern vehicles ignition has never left me stranded. Neither has the points that was on the 283 in my Chevelle or the HEI on the 350. I'm guessing the 408 stroker gen 3 I'm putting in jt will be just as reliable.
Electronic ignitions perform flawlessly for years. Sure, when they go, they go and you have to replace them, like anything else. Old kick-start Harleys is where I discovered the difference. I've seen more than one old Harley transformed from an unreliable Garage Queen with points and condenser to one of those magical starts-the-first-kick-every-time machines because of electronic ignition. Undersized pulleys are for high performance engines that spend most of their time at high RPMs, so that whatever that belt is powering still spins at a closer-to-stock speed, preventing wear and failure. Racing stuff may not always be optimal for everyday street use.
I'm curious should I upgrade a Corvair to a water pump?
Mid engined v8 conversion. Had one once cool car.
Install a Porsche engine!🤷
Good idea, an air cooled water pump!
I completely agree. Points will always get you home. A matchbook in the glove box is all you need : the striker to clean the points, the cover to gap them and you're on your way. When an electronic ignition goes out - and I've had three of them fail - you're done. And I'll keep my Carter AFB, thank you.
The one thing I cannot stand on old muscle cars is 16 inch or larger wheel and tire combinations, the look is absolutely hideous.
Replacing the points with a pertronix was exactly what I did with my 1973 Thunderbird with a 460. It has never run so good. And I do know how to set points. I keep a set of points in the trunk just in case anything goes awry or they drop an EMP and none of this digital stuff works, but give me the pertronix anytime over a set of points.
Yes I've put them in a vw , old porsche (vw) and someones 60s mustang and currently an older f100 without issue. No fiddling around . I've had my share of fun with points on vehicles and previous military equipment
But if a emp was used your electrical system would not work. You could bury replacement parts as a backup but our world would be dark as nothing electrical would work
@@carlstephens1532Drive a vintage diesel
@robertarthurs328 anything electric would not work , you would still need parts that had been stored correctly
@@carlstephens1532Nope , just fuel
I replaced points with electronic because I was tired of them oxidizing and having to file them often. I went to sniper EFI because I took my carburetor to two different shops and they couldn't get it to run correctly and nobody wants to teach how to tune them. And when the fuel dries out of carbs it leaves a powdery residue and plugs up the carb meaning more tearing them down and maintenance. Just wasn't worth it anymore for me.
On cooling it depends on where you're at.
I saw 70s fords over heat when new in fl summer. Those 400 f150 ran hot.
Tend to agree with most of what you've said but you loose me with points and condenser, I could not disagree more. I lived with points and condenser for a couple of decades because that's all there was, but once electronic ignition conversions became available I've converted everything from small engines (lawnmowers, chainsaws) to street vehicles. I would never, (I try not to say never), but I mean never again have a point and condenser ignition nor have I ever had an electronic conversion go bad.
They build an all-out BEAST of an engine, while keeping the transmission, rear-end, and, especially, the brakes, stock. They wind up what they deserve in the end.
The biggest advantage of an electronic ignition system over a points set up is that electronic ignitions vary the dwell. That is why many systems use a full 12v to the coil (HEI GM systems). They can help ignition components last longer as they don't have un-needed voltage at lower rpms and they can saturate the coil better at high rpms for better top end power, plus everything in between. Aftermarket ignition boxes and ignition modules often do not have as broad of a range as the factory units so I always try and get either a factory unit or a very high quality aftermarket. On Mopars I use the FBO brand that has microprocessor technology instead of the old school transistor units. I'm assuming Ford has something similar available. Ford's electronic ignitions from the later '70's and '80's work really well on stuff I've seen.
With few exceptions all coils are 6v coils not 12v. Some are internally ballasted but most are externally ballasted. If you want a full 12v coil that will hold up you have to buy one or get something where the coil is integrated like the HEI system. To my knowledge installing an GM HEI does not vary the dwell. The one I have is a distributor with an electronic trigger and a coil in the cap. There are no additional smarts. In response to distributors not managing high RPMs most vehicles do not have a high RPM issue especially old american iron which has a low top RPM. My old Datsun 240z, with a redline of 6500RPMs, had a points distributor and it held up to that red line just fine. I later put in a built 280zx motor with an electronic distributor. Left me stranded 300mi from home with only one shop 60mi away having a replacement. Fortunately (this was before cell phones) someone driving down the back road I was on stopped and got me to a parts store and back. After that I always carried a very expensive spare in the glovebox.
@@danielboughton3624 I copied this for you so you can understand how the HEI system works. I only mentioned HEI systems because I assume the Dura Spark and Mopar systems work the same but I'm not positive as I am a GM tech with 39 year experience.
This is from the article; The Lost Art of Servicing GM HEI, published in Hemmings, March 26th, 2024.
Another unique feature of HEI is a dwell period that responds to changes in engine speed. Identified as an expanding dwell, the saturation time of the coil is controlled by engine rpm. At idle, an HEI system will experience a dwell time of 10 to 15 degrees and will increase to 30 to 35 degrees by 2,500 to 3,000 rpm. The ignition now has the output when the engine needs it-at high speeds and under load.
In a points system, it would take 10 milliseconds for the current to reach maximum with a coil that has 2.6 ohms of resistance. The primary windings of an HEI coil have only 0.5-ohm resistance, allowing maximum current to be reached in approximately 3.4 milliseconds. Because it takes less time to reach full coil potential, saturation can be obtained at much higher engine speeds.
So this isn't my opinion or fantasy, it's how the damn thing works. Like it or not, a GM HEI distributor varies the dwell.
@@danielboughton3624 Also a 6 cylinder does not have to open and close the points as many times per one rpm as an 8 cylinder so it's usable rpm rang is increased.
@@1967davethewave Thank you for the response. I did a bit of poking but haven't found anything that explains exactly HOW they can vary the dwell. I have seen some reference to an external crank sensor as an input but that is perhaps for later HEI. I sure don't have one. Perhaps the issue I am having is the dwell is a function of RPMs and point gap (eliminated with the HEI). I can see the lower saturation time helping with increased output at speed but I don't see how you can change the actual dwell since it is a time based function of the trigger which is solely based on RPMs and how many times you fire. Some articles also claim the whole action is to cool the coil at lower speeds. What are your thoughts on that?
@@1967davethewave My HEI is on a 6cyl. It is a low RPM engine so the HEI probably does not add much value in terms of a hotter spark. It was certainly not a notable change. One thing electronic ignition is reported to do that has not been mentioned is help with bushing wear and the related scatter on a points distributor.
I bought a 1973 Ford F100 and my points quit after 100,000 miles. Got a set of points and condenser out of my glove box installed them on the side of the road and went on my way.
Former restorer here. - I totally get wanting to keep something stock.
It works, it's simple, and often much cheaper to maintain.
I think a car should suit the drivers needs.
The reason I prefer resto-mod over stock is to improve the capabilities.
My 66 Caprice has 4 shocks in the rear for better cornering,
I swapped out the TH350 for a 700r4 to get a very much needed overdrive,
I did the 4 wheel disc for better braking (even going backwards), and easier maintenance.
- I hate messing with drum brakes. 😃
Running a 355 built for alcohol at 13:1 with a long duration cam and the motor runs cleaner inside than any stock one I've had.
I'm still running Mallory Unilite components from the 80's. Absolutely love them.
Points vs Electronic ignition. Simple. I couldn't get my 327 running smoothly, even after point replacement and hours of tuning. An aftermarket HEI fixed it immediately. There's a reason we went from flathead V8's to OHV to OHC. Better performance. Your engine, your choice.
PS: You mean thank you ConAgra farm lobby.
I just retired from trucking after 40 years. I've seen a LOT of innovation and change ...
One thing is disc brakes on trucks. In this application, they're great - they have better stopping power than the drums, and they're less likely to overheat and fade. One interesting thing is the size of the front brake rotors and calipers (and pads) - they are MASSIVE, compared with the other 8 sets!!
LOL its funny how people look at the past and forget the bad. "the good old days" points were fine in the good old days when a engine would last 100,000 mile and be useless fouling plugs and burning oil at 130,000. You were expected to at least clean the points every few 1000 miles and change the cap rotor point and plugs every 10,000. then of coarse rebuild the carb and rebuild the suspension that would barley last 30,000 miles Also the problem the petronix has on fords is fords use a resistor wire and people dont read the instructions stating the petronix needs 12-14.5 volts. Points are awful you can set them perfect and they degrade from there. Also if you have enough spring pressure to rev rpms they wear out the rubbing block. factory ford duraspark ignitions are terrible the boxes are always failing and the spark past 4000 rpm is weak. There made CHEAP for max profit like many OEM parts were back in the day. Now a car will run 300,000 + with surprisingly little maintenance. Why because honda / toyota made good cars in the late 70's and forced the American car makers to build better cars into the 90's
100% agree.
Honda made cars that could exceed the 1973 EPA regs while 'Detroit' wanted at least 10 years to catch up.
Both Honda and Toyota have made some real dogs since that period though (starting around 2000 they started getting worse and worse)
In my experience, I like OHC, much simpler than push rod motors.
Problem is, Honda hasn't made a decent cam chain tensioner system since late 1970's (starting around 1978)
They also pioneered 'wet belt' system, it's designed to fail
@@1crazypj if it were not for Honda's and Toyota we would be driving Vegas. I have seen many Hondas and Toyotas hit 300,000 with min maintenance. even late versions. its not just the EPA regs Detroit intentionally made disposable care (planed obsolescence) The imports made then look really bad now they make cars that can go 300,000+ but are so loaded with electronics' and sealed systems also very thin stressed castings they are impossible to "rebuild like the 60's cars. Its there latest angle for planed obsolescence. Ps there is a toyota 4 runner on mats of road recovery with over 300,000 now they cut it up into rock crawler and beat the out of it but it keeps on running
@@1crazypj Ps if you work in auto repair remember your only seeing the broken ones. and just decent maintenance would have avoided most of those issues.
@@tomhutchins1046 Yeah, some of them are great even today but Honda have had some real disaters.
I always get the 'dogs' so I guess I am biased 😁
I bought a Mazda B2300 in 2004, did first oil change at 3,000 miles then deal did first 'official service at 6,000.
I know it's a Ford Ranger with slightly modified 'box' (flared around rear wheels)
Anyway, it's now done over 120,000 miles with mainly just oil changes (had an O2 sensor go out and coil failed few months ago on No. 1 cylinder)
Apart from the first gear being a little 'crunchy' (from new no worse or better ?) it's running quite well,.
I keep saying I'm going to build the '76 Pontiac Formula 400, it's been in pieces far too long
The biggest issue with modern cars is they are pretty much a total if anything major goes wrong (computerized transmission) or if they are more than 10yrs old. The difficulty of sourcing parts for aging vehicles or getting the damn part out of something like a newer BMW or Audi makes them junk once they start to need maintenance. I am currently working on two 90's vehicles and it has taken more time to just get the intake manifold off of either of them than it would take me to pull the engine on any of my older vehicles. The other things ignored with modern ignitions is that there isn't just a points or condenser to go bad. A failed crank sensor can leave you on the side of the road, a failed ignition module can leave you on the side of the road, a failed COP on a cylinder can do significant damage while you drive home, etc. Sourcing these parts can take days with most auto parts stores not keeping stock on the shelf. Modern engine systems are hands down a better experience but when they break they are considerably more work and $$ to diagnose and repair. This also, where I live, means you have to locate a mechanic which are rare as hens teeth. If your car is new enough and ideally under warranty you can take it to the dealer but if it is more than 5-10 years old (depending on the vehicle) you are going to have to do it yourself.
Ethanol in gas reduces our MPG.
fyi, GM distributors are on the rear of the engine, disc brakes dont need adjusting like drum brakes do and last longer
Disc brakes most definitely do not last longer. Drum brake shoes generally have longer life than disc brake pads and drums persisted in common use well well WELL into the age of disc brakes being common OE equipment for a reason. Drum brake systems are very reliable and while disc brakes inarguably have advantages, drums are a trusted, tried and true brake setup and even to this day are common on 2500 and up pickups, and still at all wheels on semis and tractor trailers.
@@christcarscountry6870 i disagree, i have an 86 3500- with four wheel disc brakes do some actual research
@@jimsmith9819 Bro I work on heavy duty pickups for a living AND got my education on highway tractors - disc brake calipers are more failure prone and disc brake pads wear out much faster than drum brake shoes. You owning a heavy duty pickup with four wheel discs doesn't magically erase the fact that highway tractors to this very day still use drum brakes at all wheels and just a few years before your truck was built, my FRIEND'S Dodge Power Wagon came factory with four wheel drums. And rear drum brakes are still OE standard on nearly all dually pickups to this day. Do YOUR research bozo.
FYI, not all GM distributors are on the rear of the engine. Buick and Cadillac engines had them in the front.
@cdglasser as a general rule they are
I agree with everything except the shroud. I don't know the climate where you live, but, in Southern Nevada we need all the help we can get!
I understand the old-skool perspective of your rant, but point systems went away for really good reasons. I grew up replacing, gapping and setting the dwell on those. It sucks, and when they start floating or pitting, stuff goes sideways. Pertronix makes great stuff. The wide cap prevents arcing with high-energy coils. The distributor is kept at the back to prevent water contamination when rain blows through the radiator. Plug and play fuel injection is the best improvement you can make to any classic engine. Carbs work good. FI works better, producing more power, better mileage, easier starting and the perfect metering for all RPM's and loads.
Wrong! The distributor belongs under the water pump, like on the mid-90s Corvette and Roadmaster! Locating it there will automatically wash it periodically, when the water pump goes bad. A second distinct advantage is that water can splash onto the distributor from the road and wash the dust off, something that is exceedingly difficult to do with a top mounted distributor. Yes, yet another GM engineering breakthrough.
@@goldenhawk352 Flat heads had the same problems . not one of GM's better ideas. Even humidity would kill the LT1's
The points on my ‘71 F100 would only last about 6 months; the cheap Electronic Ignition I installed solved that problem.
No complaints from me. I'm a firm believer of "if it aint broke, don't fix it." The bling don't mean a thing. :)
You do you. Everybody is different and each custom car is different. Heck, what we want from our cars are different.
In the case of Chrysler products, the factory service manual has a 2 page spread detailing every aspect of the cooling system for all drive train combinations, emissions packages etcetera, and it goes into great detail. What do you think the odds of your car after 60 years having the correct diameter water pump impeller and blade count, it all matters. And contrary to current thought, lots of big blocks never had fan shrouds, unless they had optional final drive ratios, then they also got the larger capacity radiator. All the combinations were thoroughly tested, in all geographic zones, and they worked!
The big fad I cannot understand is how everybody nowadays puts those anachronistic oversize mag wheels on classic cars, typically a 55 to 57 Chevy. Every old car you see on Facebook, has those weird looking mags. The old cars commonly have anachronistic paint colors and body lowering, too. It's weird to me, like a picture of Bonnie and Clyde holding AR15's and talking on cellphones. I cannot understand why people do these things to classic cars. Those wheels must be expensive, too
You are absolutely right, those big wheels look like shit
No, points do not work fine. That erratic spark eats plugs, cap and rotor, all of which got changed every 15-20K miles and that bad spark will destroy pistons in high performance, wish I did not know this. Electronic ignition systems parts last 100K+ miles. Fixed/clutch fans do the least when you need them the most and waste power, fuel and belts. My electric fans rarely turn on and stop over heat. I saw a friend of my dads nearly lose an arm by one and I lost a rare hood and inner fender from a busted fixed fan. As to MSD, a weak spark at high rpm resistance destroys pistons, msds definitely help high performance. I have never had an electric fan, pertronix or msd fail in many years of use. What you should be encouraging is 3 point restraints, by far the greatest life saver ever. The entire fleet has electric fans, ignition, front disks and 3 point restraints for only one reason, they're better.
I agree with everything but the electric fan. There are 2 typs of clutch fans one it basically a slipper design. Yes there not very good . the other looks almost the same but sometimes has a coil on the front actually senses heat. my 95 ram 12 valve has one also my 64 300 k. the fan clutch actually senses heat. On a really hot day you can hear it come On. many of the cars in the 60's and 70's used them. I wouldn't use one on an engine over 6000 rpm or even 5000 consistently. People think electric fans are free energy but when you turn them on that alternator is working hard. Then of coarse in racing you shut the fans off make a pass then turn them on. But for reliability on a classic car or street /track performance car those clutch fans are hard to beat. I have had electric fans quit at the worst possible times. You know why you see all those PT cruisers junked? The electric fans stopped working and the average person doesn't catch it.
A good strong msd or whatever system even helps bone stock classic cars the difference is big. The OEm's spend all the money on super ignitions for a reason.
@@tomhutchins1046 I even use the cheap fans and drive my cars a lot. Perhaps because I do a lot of work to make my engines run cool the fans don't do much. Is that falcon a sprint? Sucks that the OEMs don't make simple durable like that any more. I don't believe their claims no market per the demand for those simple little rangers.
@@danontherun5685 You obviously were not around back in the day. LOL You could tell a falcon or Fairlane mustang back in the day they squeaked when hitting bumps. The front ends were worn out at 20,000 miles especially the inner pivots on the upper a frames. People would torch holes in them to add grease fittings. they also had guaranteed exhaust leaks on the 6 cylinders because they had 8 foot exhaust hangs by 2 studs and a donut. Sounded like a tractor. The rear ends on the stick shift ones were good for maybe 20,000 miles everybody would go to the junk yard and get the automatic ones to replace it and end up with gears too high. They were terrible by todays standards. It seemed like there was a gas station on every corner with repair bays not mini markets. There were also mom and pop auto parts stores and small machine shops every were. sat morning there would be lines of people trying to buy parts to patch up there classic cars to get to work Monday really. oh and safety the wrecks involving those cars back in the day were gruesome really bad.
@@tomhutchins1046 You must be a young feller from a different planet. I bought my first 57 ford in 1968, still have 2 of them and had well over 100 cars and trucks. The only car I ever bought new was my wifes 2017 Escape that just got economically totaled at 51K easy miles, bad trans.
No sentient being would grease or torch a suspension bushing. How do you not know dry suspension bushings have always been deliberate? Front suspensions usually made it to 100K miles depending on climate and service. OEMs quit grease fittings and suspension failures are as common as they ever were and extremely expensive to fix.
I recently bought an 82K mile 59 bird from the original owner with complete service records to new, no mechanical work. It has a cracked exhaust manifold and leaking vacuum modulator. Before it I had a 1960 bird. I rebuilt the front end at 132K miles and the engine and trans at 174K miles. Pre 70s American running gear commonly did 100K+ miles but failed only because the oil was terrible, no service and down draft tubes didn't work. And the reason people lined up for parts was they could fix the cars themselves. Now all just wait their turn to get bent over. Economically totaled running gear is now very common at low miles.
Here's where you're really wrong, no restraints was the cause of higher fatality/injury rates. 3 point restraints are the biggest life save ever. 2 years ago my 60 bird got knocked into a parked full size SUV at 65 mph. No seat belt and just a minor black eye and drove it home with zero damage from the firewall back. The SUV rear tire pushed the driver seat into the steering wheel and would have killed people. I consider squarebirds are of the safest cars ever built due to special construction and mass.
Crush zone is propaganda to sell cheap low mass plastic that are economically totaled by scraped bumper covers, yup I didn't fall for the covid theatre or biden either. Go ahead and try the malibu/59 chev crash test on me. Better yet see archive pics of car wrecks to see they didn't suffer cabin damage anymore than current units, even prewars. Since 2004 I've only driven cars older than 1960, because I can.
Drum brakes are fine until one of the parts inside lets go or the wheel cylinder pops. Guess how good they are then? Disc brakes are better because fewer parts means fewer opportunities for failure. Plus, they work better!
Aluminum is too soft. The groove just wears out. The belt can't squeez into it. The belt just bottoms out in the groove.
I agree mostly, points do wear but I'm sure you're not using it as daily driver so they will last way longer, unless you leave key on alot , can cause point arcing, I found that out when I was younger, and I do rec a shroud, simply for safety, another thing I learned the hard way!
If you can’t be bothered to tinker once every 6 months.
Then you shouldn’t own a classic car.
I second the fan shrouding
I lost Half my thumb to a belt that wasn’t guarded like it came.
I'd add a shroud...if they existed for this car. So far it's been unnecessary to keep it cool.
May I please add, giant wheels and rubber band tires?
Coming in a video next month.
Yes, to my car!
@@ramblerdave1339 That crud only belongs on KIA and Daihatsu makes.
I agree 100% and I am living proof because I got sick of junk electronic parts that burn out and went back to points. I just recently rebuilt an old prestolite dual point for my car and that's what I'm running now, it's in my videos. I don't know what the hype is with ignitions that cost well over a grand for a engines that ran for decades with points and no issues except for occasional maintenance. No one knows how to tune their engine anymore and I guess that MSD (multiple spark discharge) is the answer for them maybe? I can run my dual point to 6500rpm and it won't skip a beat. I'm not even going to get started about the fuel injection and the cost lol As I said, no one knows how to tune anymore. Great subject 👍
Yes, totally agree. I do like hei though. I had one burn out on me years ago so I went to the junk yard and got a couple extra modules for the glovebox. Never blew another but its really quick to plug in a new module and drive away. They make them for all brands now pretty much too.
@@will7its I did a video on old junk yard parts, nothing wrong with them. I just test them and if the part is good, it's good lol
You know what they used to call dual points? "double trouble."
Nah, I always liked them and never had any issues with them other than a great running engine that can handle more rpm's than a single point and stock electronic ignitions.
@@MikesMoparShop And some people like to drop heavy things on there foot also
Pertronix main claim is eliminating the troublesome points condenser setup. I have one on an International loader tractor and figured out a nasty little problem: the tractor sits in an unheated shed and when it's any less than 10⁰ above the tractor cranks harder (most anything does) But I found it would crank and crank until the (new) battery gave up, and I'd have to jump it or pull out the charger/ starting unit. The slightest boost and the tractor started on the first couple cranks. I confirmed with the local shop ( works on lots of classics and a genius with odd electrical issues) that the Pertronix isn't getting enough voltage when the starter is pulling so hard. It's cold blooded but starts relatively easy with points. Pertronix is great but there are some pitfalls. Agree with you, besides the character of the classic is worth something in itself!
The pertronix unit has a 1V drop through the semiconductor switch. 1V less means a lot less current for fluxing the coil especially on a 6V system. Clean points have almost zero resistance and about 0.1V drop.
@@frederickcwinterburn1837 Yes the minute you clean them perfectly then when you start the car or store the car with points its down hill from there. Do you also believe a model T is a great commuter car?
Using a Model T for comparison is really showing desperation to make a point.
@@mongrelmotorsports Actually its an attempt to make something clear with the use of exaggeration. A commonly used tactic.
@@mongrelmotorsports Oh and current fluxing the coil is just fictitious statement. Thats not even how a coil works.
The mods I hate the most are LS swaps, disc brake conversions, and those hideous oversized modern rims people like to put on classic car. All that crap looks so out of place on a classic car, and none of really helps a car's drivability that much.
Amen!!! Nothing better than 15" Cragars ... those modern things that are bigger than the wheels on my 18-wheeler truck are FUGLY ...
Then don't do those mods! LS swaps are for people that want an easier engine to work on, cheap power, and because they are gear heads that know how to do a swap. Lots of scary videos of people keeping drums and trying to stop a high HP car. I agree, wheels over 18" are ugly.
Dont forget to add a poorly engineered mustang 2 rack and pinion!
Don't get me started...check out the horrid and frightening one on a Mustang on Kiwi Classics and Customs channel.
Andrew, thanks for the comment. I have struggled for the last year over the wheel thing as I need to change from 4 to 5 lug. The consensus out there is "go to 17" for tire selection" but I just can't bring myself to live with that look. I've finally conceded to sticking with 15" so the car looks 'right'. Video on that coming in a few months.
If you install a roller motor, you will need a steel gear on the distributor. A 1985 mustang GT distributor comes with said gear, and you can use a 20 buck GM 4 pin igniter and a TFI coil. You get to not use points and ballast resistor, skip the duraspark box, and get a killer spark that will not poop out in upper RPMs. I got a 1 wire alternator, and a mini starter. Also used an electric fan. Yes...if you want to keep all the 60s tech in there it will work, but I didnt want to. I retain rear drums for reasons you stated, and will never swap out my carb. It works perfect.
The only deal with Carbs is the Fuel you can buy and the miles you’re going to drive it. I learned the lesson that you should clamp the in coming fuel line and run the carb out of gas for lay-up. ETOH is great for drinking, not so good for storing for engine fuel.
I’m an aging Boomer, and I endorse this rant.
Your belt is bad.
If it holds the shape of the belt track when removed.
It’s worn out.
Yup
That belt was brand new when the engine went in this spring. Ruined by the Chinesium pulleys.
@@mongrelmotorsports More than likely its the quality of the belt. Also one of the problems with a Vbelt system. They went to a serpentine design for a reason. Its always easy to look back thinking oh the good old days and think they were so much better forgetting all the problems. Find a belt with a grooved back there much better.
With the fan belt pulley, I think you'll find that rubber doesn't grip aluminium anywhere near as well as steel. That's why push bikes with steel wheels use rubber brake pads and push bikes with alloy wheels use plastic brake pads.
As to points vs electronic ignition, with points the weak link is the condenser. A bad condenser will burn points causing a weak to no spark, and like the electronic ignition it can fail on a whim. Returning to the points, heat can cause the spring to weaken causing float and sticking which leads to misfires. Lastly, in performance situations, at high revs points can float even when new.
As to fuel injection, it has long been far superior to carburators. From the 60's with the fuel injected Corvettes, though temperamental, the Rochester mechanical fuel injection far outperformed the 4bbl's of the day. And on modern cars has led to great fuel milage in cars that originally were gas hogs.
Your rant sounds all to familiar to me. I have an acquaintance who continually gripes about computer controlled auto's, but keep in mind that during the muscle car era, about 500 was the ceiling for HP and yet today's computer controlled vehicles are knocking on the door of 1000 HP and achieving fuel milage rivaling much lower HP engines.
Granted, not everyone is savvy enough to properly tune an electronic controlled vehicle, but there is nothing wrong with a person desiring to bring their classic car up to 21 century technology.
Yes get the napa hd condenser or other good brand. Points set up right will fire at low rpm
so will start with a semi dead battery or bump start.
Ooooh, electric gizmos are scary.
Agree to all, but one point. Cooling, fan and shroud. Hear me out. I went with a fan with a built on shroud that allows it to pull air through the entire core. Keep in mind we have added AC as well. We were able to remove the fan blade of course and the water pump lasted for over 20yrs. Life of the water pump is increased when you remove the weight of the spinning fan, and it does add some HP back, there will be less lost through the added amperage on the alternator. 6:24
Better, yes. Necessary? Probably not, though with adding the a/c condenser on your car it may have been.
How much power and mpg is that fan using. Electric fans are a good add. Always worried about putting a finger in there. Also easier to work around.
E fans can and do fail, leaving you with a serious overheat. That iron fan may be inefficient but will never let him down.
@Dannysoutherner you can run duel fans. One on a sensor and one with a manual switch. I have never had a problem.
electric fans require upgraded charging and overall electrical system work while a stock clutch fan with properly fitted shroud takes only slightly more horsepower to run and pulls WAAAAY more air if you have or want to run an AC
@@jasonkaiser5150Exactly. I installed a big radiator and dual electric fans with a shroud on a temp controller with a manual switch back in 2019. Never had problems. Look at how many new cars, bikes, utv's have electric fans. They work very well.
Thanks for the video. But my opinions are different. Steel pulley, ok. Points? For cheap, I prefer the oem duraspark 2. Carb? For a car that gets driven little, yes. If I drive it a lot I'm going efi. 69 years old, working on cars since I was 14. Spent 82-88 at Ford dealership. Cool to drive the mustangs as they evolved. But we had the escort, and 6.9 diesel too. 😢 Thanks for the rant! Be well my friends.
A fan shroud does help with cooling the engine though. It helps the fan pull cool air through the radiator. I totally agree with everything else you said. As for a car not having a parking brake, handbrake or emergency brake, as that part of a car has three things it can be called, the device is very much needed when parking on a hill, especially for vehicles with a standard transmission, an automatic trans that says ouch when the weight of the vehicle is laying on the parking gear, or in case of a car losing its brakes and needing the parking brake in that terrifying case of an emergency.
I keep a set of points in the glovebox to fall back on, but keep a Pertronix in the distributor. Why? Because condensers fail too often, and points need regular adjusting and replacement. Yes, Pertronix fail, and I have gone through about 3 of them in 15 years. I also use a CDI box. Why? Because I see real benefits of a stronger, and longer spark. If I were to pull that kind of juice through points, it would burn them out pretty quickly. But if the Pertronix (or points) just sends a low voltage trigger to the CDI box, I get a very strong spark, and dont burn out the distributor.
Depends on how one uses the car. A lot of what you say is true. If you cruise in 90 plus degree heat in traffic an electric fan is a no brainer. I see a lot of classics on the side of the road or cruising with the hood open a bit due to overheating. The maintenance log on my comet from the original owner had several overheating repairs, including having to pull the heads. Since I installed an electric fan with a 195 degree thermostadt, never a problem in gulf coast heat.
Rear disk brakes are better because they are smooth and predictable in emergency situations or hp driving. Drums are self energizing so they tend to grab suddenly. Also disks are some much more durable and easy to service.
My opinion for what it’s worth.
If you plan on keeping your classic car stock or pretty damn close to stock.
I agree with everything you just said.
All the stuff you took off.
Well, that’s race car stuff not cruise around stock engine stuff.
I have no problem with points. But they do have there limits.
That’s why they came out with duel point ignition.
You start hitting 6500 and above RPM’s, lower the gear ratio, add lots of HP.
That all kind of requires
Better ignition (MSD)
Better Cooling (shroud)
Better carburetor (Holley)
For example.
I agree with you about all the EFI crap.
I love carburetors.
And I just hate seeing LS classic car swaps.
351c4v/429cj guy here: points: pertronix 1 since 1987. never ever had an issue. strong spark. Pulley: it's all about the way its installed AND the right flat belt if groove is flat for surface contact.(I do not run these but helped install) Sniper: Sorry but you know zip about them. the improvement is all over the place IF installed properly, my engine now uses 1/3 less fuel than before with me not having a different right foot. At cruise near 1/2 as with previous different 650/750 carbs. There is no programming unless you want to, you can simply enter what you want or move some curves. Many sensors?? Only one extra, the 0.2 sensor. Harness is minimum. To install them you need read the doc. which is what many do not do! Best investment I did in over 3 decades. Rear rotors: I kinda agree for my mustangs, but if you have driven a wilwood on all 4, well, that's a totally a different braking experience, but yeah, it's pricey and I haven't done it for this reason. Otherwise, they are much more than a cosmetic improvement as you suggest.
Every time Ive worked on a car with Pertronix they have had without exception has a weak yellow spark barely exceeding that which is found with a stock points system. By contrast I use a shortened primary resistance wire with the Ford Duraspark system and am rewarded with a bright blue spark which sometimes exceeds 1 1/2 inches in length. The only caveat is always using a high quality ignition module. You can keep your Pertronix, I will never use it. I also exclusively use Edelbrock (formerly Carter/Federal Mogul) carburetion, avoiding Holley whenever possible due to power valve failures a well as having gaskets below the fuel level.
@@donreinke5863 Let me add some water in my own wine... I have these Pertronix P1 for 3 decades and the spark is strong as if installed yesterday. Pertronix was the new kid in town at the time for pointless solutions. That having said, lots has probably changed in the manufacturing process. I know many had issues with defect P3's. So I can imagine there can be issues with the newer versions of the P1 that have probably undergone changes in the fabrication process/materials to save a buck or two. A trend really visible these days in aftermarket parts where new means nothing anymore due to lack of quality control.
@@FabriceClosier Another advantage to petronixs is it does not care about a little slop in the distributor bushings. Unlike points. I truly feel sorry for a company trying to make a living selling electronics to 'hobbyists'". Its like going to the zoo and giving a Swiss watch to a monkey (with instructions) and a warrantee.
With Pertronix , to answer your question is you do not have to adjust them every six months or deal with burnt or pitted point contacts , failed condensers . Pertronix or any factory electronic ignitions such as a Dura Spark II is a great advance in ignition and better spark . Yes points work good , as long as you buy NOS vintage sets if you can find them , today's auto parts points are pretty crappy as are the condensers. The MSD boxes are not always a bad idea . The issues are they fail often stranding you . With points you can usually get going with a screwdriver . So there is NOT only one view . It depends on the application . Your ford there could use a much better STOCK OEM FORD TFI e core coil and wires = Better spark , easier starts ,longer plug life . Yes your 130 hp 289 2 barrel doesn't need any fan shroud . But here you are with your aluminum radiator . Cmon pop for the original since that's your rant . Original is good , but to say that the original manufactures knew what they were doing .. your right , keeping COSTS DOWN , hence horrible drum brakes and single reservoir master cylinders that lock up , induce uncontrolled skidding and accidents , nothing great and nothing safe about that . Only when forced to do so by safety standards , did disc brakes and dual master cylinders start to become standard equipment . Far better braking and far shorter and controlled panic stops . Your probably a bias ply tire is better cause they knew what they were doing person as well ? There are many many things unnecessary that people do , but hey it's their car and really not up to you right ? Fan shrouds are a great help on every vehical , hence why they all use them especially in traffic . Not your falcon or my 66 mustang 200 6 perhaps . In any case nope rear disc's are not needed on your falcon or many other cars or trucks , drums work pretty well on the rear , and the conversions are kits , weird rotors you have to special order with some oem mishmash parts to make it work, plus alot of other mods , so yes not so great usually . Sniper EFI and all of those are a huge ordeal , cost way too much, and are 1980s technology . Carbs work and are pretty easy to fix on the roadside if you breakdown . No real flaming here , but let's not try to say that 70 year old car technology is better, or they did it right , they did what it was for the times . BTW those aluminum pullys you took off were for looks and yeah wrong diameter and does not correctly grip the belts . Abit of condesending tone there and you were not right about everything you wanted to say .
Great reply. Agree with most of what you said. My condescension was just tongue-in-cheek. Everyone should do whatever they want to their own car.
And i thought i was long winded. oh duraspark boxes SUCK
Duraspark was good...when it first came out. The problem today is they are all ancient and going bad, and aftermarket replacements are poor quality.
@@mongrelmotorsports That's not the general opinion from ford types. And my experience. If your going to run a duraspark pick the one with the blue plastic around the plug the other's had emission's ignition retard and strange settings built in. Even when the duraspark works it is really weak and RPM limited compared to even the orange Chrysler unit.
I agree 110%. Points work, carbs work, etc. They're simple to fix, etc. Look at the electronics they put on today-> always breaking, no way to fix enough to ya to town etc. I like a shroud for hand protection. And I agree with rear disc.
Point ignition, not a problem , But 1975 hei on GM works and works.
I am 76 years old and lived with points and carbs for years. They were a constant source of maintenance and problems. My 52 Chevy 3100 has a 5.3 Chevy engine with factory fuel injection. I wouldn't have an engine with points and a carb. I replaced the rear brakes on the truck with disks, which greatly improved braking. This was probably because I was incompetent in setting the proportioning valve for the disk/drum combination that I bought the truck with. Also the rear discs come with an emergency brake, didn't cost too much and were pretty easy to install. Compared to drums discs are simpler, easier to maintain, and work better. I agree with that stock radiators and fans always worked just fine. I also agree that EFI conversion kits are very expensive, and seem to require quite a bit of work to install and get to work right. Bottom line is its all situational. If you don't mind the maintenance associated with points and carbs, they might be right for you. I use my pickup as a daily driver and want it to start easily and run smoothly every time, and require minimal maintenance, so a "modern" engine is the right choice for me.
If you absolutely have to have EFI in place of a carburetor, for a driver at least, an OEM setup, scavenged from a wrecked but intact car, is going to be your best bet.
You did the EFI swap correctly, with a factory EFI engine !! The aftermarket systems never run quite as seamlessly as your 5.3 (At best!!)
hey this guy is right on the money,although i agree about the mrg fuel regulator sitting on the manifold thats a no no. the garbage fuel we have nowadays is why some folks convert to EFI but all you really need is a phenolic spacer under the carb and maybe an electric fuel pump with a decent regulator and the hot starting issue will mostly be resolved. i drive old ford work trucks and never really needed the disc brake conversion.unless you racing the drum system is fine -If maintained correctly.
My big rant is chopping tops. I hate that. and slamming EVERYTHING to the ground. Especially trucks. WHY?????? It looks incredibly stupid. And don't even get me started on the 28 inch wheels.
LOL, can't disagree. My personal hatred is shaved door handles. Why do people hate door handles so much? Once again, adding complexity and a failure point to a car for the sake of vanity. But those things are personalizations for style more than some alleged mechanical improvement.
@@mongrelmotorsports mexicans do all that stuff lmao! ive never seen a white person lower a truck
I despise the squated trucks. Looks like a dog taking a shit and looks just plain stupid.
@@schlomoshekelstein908 Congratulations. You win the "Dumbest reply on RUclips" award for the next hour. The FIRST lowered truck I ever saw was in the early 70's and I can assure you the perp was a 100% European descent paleface. You cant go to a car show or cruise anywhere in this country without seeing a truck lowered by a "white person".
@schlomoshekelstein908 save the racism cletus. Here in the Midwest, pale male slammed dually trucks are the rage.
Besides, Mexican hydraulic 'switches' aint just lowered.
Stick to your dodge product.
My take on distributors
I run a modified 300 6 with an hei unit
The truck is an 83, federal emissions made in Canada
Came with TFi and the feedback carb
I've done fuel economy and 0 to 75 times due to this being my daily driver
Points is great because it's simple but it's still limited
I have to run 035 plug gap to 045
Have to run a ballast resistor
Anytime I went over 045 gap it would destroy the points nomatter where I would set their gap to
So I tested pertronix which gained over the points but not much, was great to remove the ballast
Allowed the truck to run at 055 gap but would struggle and lose spark over 060
I moved to my current hei unit and installed an msd 65?K coil
I'm currently running 080 gapped plugs and soon to 090 and 100 for my experiments
My results over 10 or more tests
All at 65mph cruise at 2200 rpm
Points at 040 gave back about 24mpg
Pertronix 25 055 gap
Then with hei
055 about 24.5-25mpg
065 25.5-26
075 26
080 26.5
Again this is with a modded 6
I'm running vacuum bleed similar to how Luke's carb cheater works
The valve was opened 100% each time bleeding off 3.5Inhg
The only variable being plug gap and distributor setup
You mentioned "brand X" distributer location. What about my 292? And the points work great, not so easy to change.
You missed the most common mistake & you have it right on top of your engine, that "hot air" performance & economy reducing air cleaner.
Ahhh, you caught that. And I don't disagree at all. That one is a placeholder until I come up with something that doesn't just breathe hot engine bay air. It bugs me, but it's chrome and looks purty, so there's that.
@@mongrelmotorsports Well, it is stock- C8ZZ-9600-W
boy do I miss the days of adjusting drum brakes /s. big cap on that dizzy. is that original?
And here I am a guy wishing it was legal (here in scandinavia) to put a carb and points ignition on a jeep cherokee xj. And drum brakes rear are just awesome (unless one drives like a speedfreak) always lubing up the rear disc brakes a few times a year on my own and wifes car because they are not used enough and sticking....
Rear disc parking brakes...ugh. A constant source of despair on my Fiat 124s back in the day.
@@mongrelmotorsports Because its a FIAT ( Fix it again tony) rear disks are much better than drums now. In every way
1. Theres more SBC's under old ford hoods than ford for a reason.
2. HEI is on point and runs hotter , easier to service , extends plug life and doesn't bounce at high RPM and just plain more reliable.
3. I agree on carbs , just use the right one for displacement, bigger ain't always better. Power and performance is a balancing game.
4.at least get a light weight flex fan, that bomber propeller sucks power at all RPMs and doesn't do any good at freeway speeds.
BEST, go electric pusher , works when you need 'em, doesnt chop off fingers , doesnt suck HP and gets stuff out from under the hood that you have to worry about and work around.just a big win!
5.BRAKES. disc front, drum back, yep! And get the best you can ! Well worth every penny.
6.GET SOME BLOODY HEADERS! And cross overs on the straightest pipes you can .every bend sucks power.
The least resistance improves mileage and performance.
Quit being a car fudd , they built these things as cheap and quickly as they could to make money , theres tons of potential in these old engines , but they needed to just make the general public happy.
Agree except on headers...what a giant PITA they are most of the time. Leaks, burnt plug wires, difficult to install. The hipo small block manifolds on my car flow almost as well. I did add an H pipe too.
@@mongrelmotorsports No any exhaust manifold wont even get close to the performance of a long tube header. with a little thinking and a good quality set of headers most issues can be avoided.
Can't install what they don't make.
Mustang headers should me the same as falcon
@@mongrelmotorsports long tube headers are not the priority. 4 wheel disk brakes or at least front disks and a dual cylinder 5 lug wheels is. Mustang parts should fit. I seem to remember the 6 cylinder steering linkage was different. if you still have the 6cylinder rear those thing don't even hold up to the 6. A 57 -60 ford 9 inch is the correct width. or an 8inch out of a mustang.
I've run a March aluminum underdrive pulley set on my 332" stroker for about 26 years, no squeaks, and the V belt holds up well, even shifting the engine at 8500 rpm. With 11:1 compression and full 34 deg of timing by 1500 rpm, and with a very lightweight crank assembly and flexplate/converter, my throttle response is pretty quick, still no belt slippage. I would say the groove angles aren't matching up to the belt correctly on your setup, combined with the much greater mass of your mechanical fan that it had to turn, was your slippage issue. Mine doesn't even have p/s pump, so all it has to turn besides the underdriven water pump is the ultra lightweight pulleys and the alternator, which is also underdriven. As for MSD ignition, it is useful for performance, but for a low rpm street duty, I'd just run the stock motorcraft electronic ignition. It's pretty damn reliable. I've only had 1 MSD box failure in decades of using them, so they are pretty solid too. Nowadays, stuff is more likely to be made in china, so I'd be more inclined to go back to stock NOS parts. I still run a Race Demon Holley-style carburetor and make 530hp with it, lol I love carbs and I'm not a fan of fuel injection, but then I also still run an old solid flat tappet cam, too. Again, chinese crap makes modern flat tappets unreliable as hell, so the next engine I build will have a roller. As for the mechanical fan, they rob 20-25 or more hp, and I've seen them fail at 6000+ rpm and imbed a blade in the hood of a car, so I would never run one of the old style fans on any engine. But for a stock setup, a modern clutch style fan would work great, they don't rob much hp,(5 maybe?) and are reliable. But one consideration of an electric fan is the longevity of the water pump bearings and seals will improve without a fan bolted to it. Fans get dirty, so they'll rarely be perfectly in balance. As for rear drum brakes, I agree with your assessment too, I run a 1959 thunderbird 9" axle in my Mustang II, still with the stock drums, which are huge(11 inch?) and rear drums really work great, especially in a 2450 lb car, and believe me, it's seen high speeds(3.10 gears) and has stopped nicely. I built the car for road course racing, but I really just use it as a street car. Hell, my civic beater still has drums in the back, and they need less maintenance and last longer than rear discs, with all the moving parts covered and protected by the drums. Plus, the drum style parking brake is stronger and more durable.
Interior view of my car revving.. Squeak free zone lol ruclips.net/user/shortsqtsW7Cy9ybc
There's nothing wrong with points ignition, but there's nothing wrong with electronic ignition either. I personally don't care for pertronix products (they're a bit cheesy in the quality department for my taste), but they get the job done. MSD is pretty good if you get a good old fashioned one but where a lot of people go wrong and cuss out MSD is when they try to be lazy and run all the points style wiring through it (the big resistor and/or the resistive ignition wire on Fords - it won't work well, don't do that folks!). And 2, MSD can't work under 9v so a lot of crank and no start problems are when the starter sags the voltage below 9v and the MSD box literally shuts off. That's not limited strictly to MSD, there's a lot of aftermarket electronics that shut off below 9v, MSD and Holley are just the common ones. Also, slapping 4bbl Holley double pumpers, single planes and ridiculously oversized cams in street cars, that mod destroys drivability. As far as fans go, if my car doesn't have a shroud when I get it and it overheats a bit in traffic, I go straight to electric and put the mechanical fan in my spare parts box. The AC will work a LOT better if you've got it, especially sitting in traffic when it's 103 outside. Carbs can go either way; if it's a classic you're putting 5,000 a year on that sits around a lot, TBI is the way to go, yes it IS that much better in that application. Carbs are not for the young, the uninitiated amateur.. or the lazy! But.. I love a good Carter AFB style or Quadrajet, none of that cheap Chinese Holley shit
At 9 volts you have other issues to worry about. Gm Hei's start to fail at around11 volts. A lot of racers "oval track) will try to run without an alternator and don't realize what's up.
@tomhutchins1046 yeah back in the bad old days the only way to get around that particular can of worms, if you weren't gonna run an alternator, those big boom boom bass audio capacitors did the trick, you didn't have to haul a big heavy deep cycle battery around the track (edit: just a small lightweight one). That was a pretty well-kept secret for a long time
@@Drmcclung LOL show me somebody that ran a cap instead of a battery. How did they start the car. Could you be confusing a magneto ignition like your lawn mower? Big caps? you do realize CDI stands for Capacitive discharge ignition? Yes with an alternator you can run a small battery and in the last 25 years many have run 16 volt battery's and alternators. The battery starts the car then acts like a long term Stable capacitor. There is no free energy something has to charge your caps which are very short tern storage. caps are usually used to dampen voltage surges they cannot produce power or even store power over the long run. Also anytime you disconnect a DC cap it with create a huge voltage spike. I have been around a long time. if you actually tried to do what you say you got nothing from it and were really lucky you didnt fry something. ALL pro race cars "other than older sprint cars with mags Have an alternator and battery for a reason.
@@Drmcclung Ps one of the tricks is to use the white wire on an mSD for your points and it really takes the load of the points and turns it into a trigger.
@@tomhutchins1046 might want to read thoroughly what I actually wrote 😉
Bad parts is bad parts. Whether they are original equipment configuration are a more so called updated or modern configuration. And like you said, new is not always better.
You are right on about points ignition. I actually purchased the pertronix set for my 65 falcon 6, but changed my mind about installing it after reading and hearing about too many failures. I instead, stocked up on nos points and condensors at auto swap meets. Brands like filko, autolite and motorcraft. Wont use the new china junk. I drive my falcon as a daily driver and shes as reliable as when she was new!
Pertronix aint as good as some people think it is.
PERTONIX is vastly superior to points... which is all that's matters
for me rear disc swap is for ease of pad replacement an helps keeping axle/tire under the car/truck if stuff breaks. i like a carburetor over efi but having to rebuild a carb every 6 to 8 months over the fuel eating gaskets an anything rubber kind of sucks
Rebuilding carb every 6 months??😂 Try running "Rec" fuel, it's a little pricey, but it is what your carb was designed to run, minus lead.
I have multiple motorcycles with carbs too. Haven't had to rebuild one yet.
Changing a 67 289 ign.system from point to electronic is easy,need the pieces for it,i had a 78 302 distr.and it fit perfect,just like it was made for it,and the car runs well too,having the wiring harness for the box and distributor makes it look stock.
Pretty sure that is a duraspark pointless ignition that didn't come out till 75. That car probably also came from the factory with a fan shroud.
73 and the pickup is very good. MSD used ford pickups for years. The ford ignition box IS AWFUL.
Fan shroud only on a/c equipped ones. The distributor is a plain old FoMoCo points unit, just with the newer cap conversion.
@@mongrelmotorsports There were not very many factory ac's on falcons . I dont think i have ever seen a fan shroud on the older falcons. Also check the gap between the rotor and the cap terminal. those big caps were designed for more voltage than your points ignition can do. You dont need the big cap for points so its very possible its hurting not helping
mate out here i got the xw fairmont 302 WITH points xt wagon 351c and zc fairlane 302 WITH points GB700 bosch
Does it really matter what type of brakes you have??? These days everyone's driving distracted, staring at their cellphones & cracking up without ever touching the brake peddle anyway.
It mattered for me on my old Land Cruiser. The front leaf spring made adjusting the twin single leading cylinders a huge pain. I still have them on the back but did a bolt on conversion for the front. Explaining to someone how to adjust twin leading brakes is an exercise in frustration as well. Beyond that if you have to use the brakes often on a race track or coming down a steep grade the shoes will get hot more readily than disc brakes. In addition the drum brakes will grab with less pressure so you can run them w/o a booster but they can also lock up more readily and stay locked if you jab 'em hard and the stars align.
Twin cylinder drum brakes...had those on a Ford Courier. I wanted to inflict physical harm on the guy who designed those. And they didn't have auto adjusters, so I was under there once a month tightening them up.
@@mongrelmotorsports Exactly. The rear ones rarely need to be adjusted but the fronts...
100% Right! So many of these modern mods are done for looks or just to say I did this. Don't lose the spirit of the muscle car.
Yup i miss spending every sat -sun filing points and rebuilding carbs ect. The good old days
I have 3 motorcycles with points and carbs. I haven't had problems with any of them. I don't expect this car to be any different.
@@mongrelmotorsports how many miles a year do you rack up on any of them?
A few thousand a piece. Same as the cars.
@@mongrelmotorsports And as a hobby thats fine. daily driving NOOOO. I have better things to do with my time.
I put an MSD pointless billet distributor in my car that can only run with a MSD spark box and an electric fan and aftermarket size radiator and in the end it was not because I thought it was bling or would make my car go faster but it was to compensate for tuning issues before I took the time to really sit and think about the root cause of the problems. The idle was rough, engine chugged on acceleration, car overheated etc. Once I took time to research how to do a basic carburetor tune with metering rods and springs and jets and idle adjust with vacuum gauge it idled and drove so much better it was like night and day. Then I rebuilt my engine and flushed out about 2 pounds of rust chunks from the block I went back to pulley driven fan and factory size radiator with no shroud and it does not overheat. I think for myself and many others they are trying to fix a problem by throwing parts and fancier new tech at it when just taking the time to get a decent understanding and a good tune up will save lots of time and money.
I love this reply. Funny how actually tuning and fixing problems works!
By far HEI is more reliable. And MSD box is literally the easiest mod.
Never have a set of points leave me stranded.
Yup as long as you keep them in your pocket when your driving your modern car you will be fine.
I have.
i agree on everything that u pointed out in this video. except a fan shroud does help redirect the air flow were it needs to be over the radiator.
Most likely the problem with your under drive pulley and belt slipping is cause by two things. First, a worn belt, and second, the angle of the belt groove is either wrong, and/or it is too wide. Either instance will cause the belt not to have a very large contact pattern, and slip. Pulley groove angle should be 34 degrees for smaller pulleys such as your for A, B, or C series belts. The pulley groove angle for A, B, and C series belts varies from 34 to 38 degrees, with the smaller degree angle being for smaller pulleys.
Come on man! Points SUK!!!!!! And you know it!
HEI is so basic and its easy to carry spare parts and easy to change. I do run a carb though. But I disagree on the use of MSD boxes, they are not necessary and they burn out.
@@iancoachwerksllc Hei was designed to be a simple cheap factory way to make high voltage at low RPMs and thats all there good for. I have never had an MSD box burn out. Of coarse i read the instructions.
@ so your assuming i have had one burn up on me and I dont read instruction
@@iancoachwerksllc yes . . . she is a real scholar !
@@iancoachwerksllc also: She may read the instructions but she doesn't know how to spell very well. She should got back to Word School".
Ford Durafail ignition sucks, modules are failure prone. The modified for Ford GM HEI works wonders. 1 wire. Uses same ignition modules as early 80s GM cars. Dirt simple and reliable. Overall I like off the shelf stuff. If something goes wrong parts are readily available. Underdrive crank pulley can cause overheating in traffic. I despise those bicycle tires and rims people insist on ruining cars with. The HOOD look doesn't work on these cars, or any car TBH.
The only problem I ever had with Ford electronic was when I was turning a little 302 7200 on a regular occasion. I had more problems with the HEI. Didn't think much of either one's problems,because they're both easy to fix.
Duraspark distributors work very well with a MSD 6AL, screw GMs HEI, on a Ford.@@timothybyrom5560
My 79 T/A was notorious for getting hot after a hard run so aftermarket upgrade for cooling was nice. The EFI is great for long distance drives that involve elevation change as well as other benefits. Drums are a royal pain in the ass to replace. No old school mechanic says " I love replacing and adjusting shoes."
Can't argue with a single point you made. I'm still reluctant to trust a/m EFI though.
@@mongrelmotorsports i have been running the same Hays Maganapulse electronic unit with Judson electronic magneto coil since 1975. no parts available for the Hays. ran on both chevy and pontiac. i have used HEI also. but that wouldn't fit with the tri power intake
Yeah idk it takes a rather significant elevation change to have a real. Noticable effect on Engine performance any change that does happen is negligible as far as mileage goes sure if I drove from fla to Denver fuel injection would certainly be the way to go obviously but for the most part most people are not going to jump in a classic car and travel the whole country it's just not the car to do that in the comfort alone is one reason nevermind the fuel economy part why drive the t/a when the Toyota is way more comfortable and gets 35 mpg it's a no brainer but for weekends and having fun of course the Toyota is not the car to drive so yeah putting fuel injection on a car it never came from the factory with is a waste of time and money as it's been proven that other than a better cold start there is really nothing to be gained not in performance or economy if so then the original carb and ignition system was lacking in some way big time ..
@@GlennManchester I've unfortunately felt said elevation change driving from Jacksonville FL to Cripple Creek CO. Terrible feeling driving up a 2 lane pass with a wall on one side and an absolute drop off down a mountain on the other with nowhere to turn around and your car absolutely struggling to breathe going 15mph in first gear. The thought of breaking down on that type of road with nowhere to pull off probably took a few years off my life. 😫
WARNING ⚠️
My good man:
That fan you showed without a shroud on it sends chills down my spine because it reminds me of my co workers brother who was killed by a fan that looks identical to yours.
He was leaning over the radiator and the fan didn’t have a shroud…one of the fan blades broke free and cut his neck open to the point where his head was barely attached to his body and he died almost instantly.
Apparently the rivets let go or the thin metal of the blade fatigues and developed a stress crack…?
Get a better fan.
Put a shroud around that fan for the love of god.
Likely story, a story of a fan that goes for years with no incidents then when someone is leaning over it, it comes apart and kills somebody, I’m sure! lol 😮
A plastic shroud would offer zero safety. Can't say I've seen many steel ones. Yes, there are some fans that are prone to failure from age, especially plastic ones.
I love electric fans because it makes it quieter, cleans up room in the engine bay, but most importantly is it helps my cars heat up quicker in the winter. Although yes a clutch fan works great still.
The problems I usually see with electric fans is a lot of them are very poor at moving air, and wiring them up to work without a manual switch can be a bother. They do save a lot of space and won't chop your arm off when the engine is running.
I am biased toward them because my dumb ass isn't going to lose my fingers to an E-fan.
They have put sbc's in to many cars that aren't Chevys. I like the motor and badge to match.
Most people don't have the patience to learn how to make proper adjustments and maintain the old stuff, especially since most (even "professional") mechanics also don't and have been messing up carb, distributor, and points adjustments, by not following specified adjustment for the life of most of these old cars. If you know your ish, get a good carb and some good Raybestos shoes adjust it all as it should be and you'll be good to go. Dual master cylinder on a car with a single is the first mod I would do if it's not a concours car.
For me, I restore to stock from factory unless it's used for racing. Old cars need to be in an Everyday driving state condition. That means NO Problems when you turn the key.
I agree with most of everything you said. I have and 88 Mustang 5.0, and i did convert the rear brakes to disc, but i used factory SN95 components and the perking brake was already there. Stops a lot better then it did with the drums. Also I have a 83 F100 under restoration in a 1000 parts at the moment. Was thinking about converting to EFi but decided to stick with the 2 barrel carb . Worked good before and will be working good after reassembly . EFI is too expensive. I don't know what the obsession is with big horse power these days. Everybody wants to go fast on the street. For what?
If there is a factory bolt-in option for rear disc, I'm all for it. I did that on one car of mine. But these big dollar kits just aren't necessary.
My guess is that 95% of all classic car owners cannot change a set of points, and at every 3000 miles? Maybe half of their shops know how? Who has a dwell meter and a timing light anymore? Setting timing with no fan shroud? Ouch! The rest I can agree with. If you have a 150 hp engine, not much is needed to keep it happy. Nice work.
I'll agree most classic owners have no idea how to work on their cars which explains most mods and LS conversions. I still have my Craftsman dwell meter from when I was kid.
@oldman-zr2ru me too! Lol. Like a large horizontal calculator with a dial! I even have a backup to check accuracy of the first. Ok. Now I am laughing out loud!
If the points are right then the dwell is right. Dwell meters only were used for a short period of time because the electronics and points overlap was not particularly long. Beyond that you can set 'em by eye or with a matchbook cover or a biz card as suggested in the video and the car will run. Might not be perfect but it will get you on down the road. Having a spare for an electronic ignition module is quite a bit more expensive. Any way around it adding more complex systems like fuel injection with a pile of sensors and an aftermarket ECU does not increase the pool of mechanics that can work on your car.
This guy is a classic car owner. He's not a gearhead or power enthusiast. Nothing wrong with ditching old tech for new if that's what you're into.
@@Ghost_2366 You make a good point. If you are chasing more HP to get down the strip faster, that's a completely different goal. Most of the guys I know with classic 60s and 70s cars will never see a drag strip, yet they will spend $$ on brand name 'improvements' just for open hood cred.
Amen!! Everyone knows the guy that needs to rechip and mod. the intake for ( better) performance. Ya right. Auto manufacturers have spent millions engineering your car for optimal performance. The after market is often just reengineering what has been done already, just to sell you something.
Not true, they design them to meet a compromise, of performance, fuel mileage and quiet operation. The second two hurt power output.
In 1966 they spent about $50k engineering that car. Every innovation mandated by the govt was paid for in blood.
Your premise is laughable. Any 2024 cars using points, carbs, no passenger side mirror? Steel dash, drum brakes?
Old technology becomes obsolete when better technology is developed.
Just because it's original does not mean it's better... cars from the 50's 60s and 70s were high maintenance, low efficiency and low performance and had poor reliability.
Anyone that thinks points are better? Needs their head checked..
@@sandervanderkammen9230 I don’t believe he said they were better, I think he said they were sufficient with regards to performance and reliability in the average hot rod/daily driver.
I agree with you on carbs. But give me one example where a pertronix gave out? Do you personally know someone. I've ran them for literally over 3 decades, not one problem. Points on the other hand, they are only get worse as soon as you fire-up the engine. And if you're that concerned, carry points in your glovebox.
I'm a huge fan of electronic ignitions but I had 2 Pertronixs give out on my '69 Super Bee. The first one was the basic Pertronix Ignitor system. I had used one on my '68 Charger years before and loved it. So when the first system failed on the Super Bee I replaced it with a more expensive Ignitor II. It lasted about 2 months and it failed. I researched it and Pertronix was having issues all over the place according to forums and RUclips. So I put a factory electronic ignition system on the Super Bee and it was fine for the next year until I sold it. Maybe this was just a temporary thing and I happened to be unlucky enough to have been caught right in the middle of it, this was 2016/2017, but I did have 2 failures right in a row.
I'll put my hand up on one giving out. Didn't last but maybe a year and would have left me stuck but I had a set of points and a rotor in the vehicle.
The reason my car has points is the Pertronix lost it's smoke. Uncle Tony had one fail on his Charger which he documented on his channel. Like any electronic device, they are not infallible. And in fairness as I mentioned, I did run one on an FE Ford for over a decade and never had a problem.
With experience comes wisdom!