When To Move Up In Performance With Your Ski Boots And Supportive Vs Minimal Footbeds
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2024
- There is a spectrum of performance within ski boots, from beginner all the way to the elite. In this podcast episode Tom Gellie chats with Brent Amsbury about when is a good time to look at moving up in performance. More aimed at the advanced skier out there who is wondering if a stiffer boot is really going to give them that next edge this episode aims to inform you on plug boots. The topic of supportive vs minimal footbeds is also discussed and pros and cons of both are presented as well as who might benefit from either type of footbed.
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I've owned a ski shop for over 40 years and have been fitting boots and making footbeds for all that time. But I feel that custom footbeds are way oversold. I agree with Brent, when he talked about the progression of the boot fitting that a skier goes through as the skier progresses through his/her skiing journey. At first, the skier is in a boot that's probably one size too big. ( I think that 60% of skiers are in boots that are one size too big.) And then they progress to a tighter boot and maybe they get a footbed in that second or third set of boots that probably fit a lot better and the skier attributes the better fit to the footbed because the boot fitter said a custom footbed would make the boot "so much better fitting" but in reality, the boot itself fits their foot so much better. Plus, I wonder how much of that "better fit" is due to the fact the skier just paid $200 for them, everyone has told them that footbeds are great. It's kind of like "The Emperor's New Clothes" effect. I think footbeds are way oversold and it's mostly because the ski shop makes a huge margin on them. Let's face it, money makes the world go around. (and I've owned a ski shop for over 40 years)
It's interesting to look at the history of custom footbeds. When they were first developed, they were very rigid and highly posted. Now most custom footbeds are being made without any posting at all and are much less rigid.
95% of good boot fitting is getting the skier into a shell that is right for their foot shape. The average skier, left to their own devices, will choose a boot that is too big or too wide for their foot. Quite often skiers purchasing boots either online, from big box stores, or from boot fitters that don't know what they are doing. will buy boots that are their street shoe size. The problem with this is that 95% of the time the size shoe they wear is one, to as much as, two sizes bigger than your measured size! And 90 % of recreational skiers should be using a ski boot that is their measured size. ( Most people do not know their measured size.)
A lot of skiers think they need to go with a plug boot to get a tighter more precise fit. i.e. Less movement inside the boot. But for 99% of most skiers, it's way overkill. And remember it takes many hours of a boot fitter's time ($$) of grinding and punching to make them fit. And Brent said it, the best way to get that kind of fit is to get a ZipFit liner (Assuming you have the proper shell for your foot.) But you have to get the right model. The right ZipFit model is mostly based on the relationship between your foot volume with respect to your shell volume. Make sure you see an experienced ZipFit boot fitter.
Thanks for your input especially coming from an owner of a ski shop. You have a long history of experience by the sounds of it. it is interesting hope many other factors are at play with boot fit when often it is claimed “my custom footbed was what made it great”.
Doing windsurfing really helped my skiing balance, due to the “free” feet and the amount of moving and the necessary balance. Which means necessary flexibility, strength and balance where just there!!
Great video, talking about all the topics. Having skied plug boots off and on for last 30 years, they very much have changed. I swap boots to suit what I am trying to do. A plug boot comes out rarely for me now, as most of the time I am happy to trade ultimate max go vs enjoying going skiing. I also have NO ROOM for other stuff like a thicker / built up footbed or even a CARV insert. I broke a pair of carv inserts in atomic prototype plug boots as the cable couldn't conform. My skiing now is mid 40's office guy with injuries, so 130 is a perfect daily driver.
Great educational video content!!! Thank you very very much for this discussion - I learned a lot 🙏
Great video and very informative! Thanks Tom! ⛷️🤙
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fantastic discussion and information. I’ve been in footbeds for 2 decades. Prior to that for 3 decades never had footbeds without any issues. From listening to you I’m going to try my stock footbeds next outings. I have a great fitting ski boot ( BOA Fischer RC4 130 ).
I have a high instep and a high instep footbed which I actually feel pushed my foot too high in the boot. Your information is priceless. Far too many ski shop boot fitters up here in Canada really don’t understand true body mechanics. They think they do. It’s complicated and as a skier you have to become informed so you make the right decisions. 👍
Give those stock insoles a go! I hear so often that other the person feels no difference or they like it better
I'm 67 and can still lay down a great turn because I have been working on my skiing and equipment for decades. I will spend a lot of time on wide beginner trails and do many of the exercises I've learned over the years from instructing or racing. However, I also have Parkinson's and my timing and balance isn't what it used to be. Also my strength isn't there anymore even though I work out. That being said, I use Atomic WC plug boots.
I could use a half size smaller shells, but I cram my feet in as it is. I use a hair dryer to warm the shells so I can get my feet in the morning. After skiing I have to go inside for a while for the shells to loosen up so I can get them off. Because I don't ski everyday, my feet don't shrink too much during the ski season so I can use a very thin pair of socks. What is the fit I'm looking for? I'm looking for a snug, but even fit overall. I think the thinnest liners used put too much stress on your knee ligaments and completely lock any subtle changes you can attain with your ankles. In the mid 1970s Lange had a very stiff and high boot that just locked your knee; and subsequently there were many knee injuries. My instep buckle is not too tight because I don't want to compress my instep vein and nerve which will give you cold feet. I also use a heated footbed which has been great. I have the battery cord go up my legs and the battery is either attached to my belt or an inside pocket.
My liners are standard Mimic fit WC liners. I may eventually go to the Mimic Pro liners which are partially foamed. My liners are a Frankenstein project. They have the standard foam pads many racers use, but I have managed to use a cork goo (like in Zipfit liners) in small plastic bags that flow to fill voids. I also use rubber pads that are vulcanized like tube tires as well.
Because I don't ski everyday, my feet don't change that much and I wear Crocs so my feet can spread out within a confined surface. Marcel Hirscher used to pack a dozen ski boots during the ski season. Most WC skiers will have three different ski boots. One for SL, one for GS, and one for SG and DH. Because my feet don't shrink very much, I can get fairly good performance out of them when unbuckled, and of course better performance when they are buckled. If you watch WC skiers in the start house, they will only tighten up their buckles one or two latches because they are properly sized. The pretty good skier on your home hills will latch their boots twice at the top of the lift. Of course their boots are not sized properly and they end up getting cold feet and pressure points. My point is that if you want to be a great skier you will have to mess around with your boots; by your own trial and error, your local boot fitter, or at the highest levels an elite boot fitter with factory support.
wow...what an excellent bit of info....I was struggling all last yr with my new boot setup..dalbello world cup 140 flex with zipfit liners...what a nightmare...the LACK of setup and fit information for a specific liner to boot is the most critical part of the equation...is this gonna work with this shell...more importantly is the shell the correct size for that specific liner..meaning aftermarket liner....if the first or entry stage prep work to fit the liner to the boot is not followed all else fails...needless to say i fell into the narrative of " good skiers need stiff boots"....boy was i wrong...work in progress boys and girls...thx for the info....fantastic show
Zipfits are highly recommend because the liners that come with boots, especially plugs are simply the wrong size. It's not always that the last is too small some of the liners I've seen are ridiculously small for the boot. . Also the tightness of the buckles on top of the foot can affect stiffness massively, often more so than the actual stiffness rating. as when you push through its that area that deforms. The tighter the buckle the less deformity the stiffer the effect.
Totally agree, and my foot is very narrow 92 at 275 and I have this problem where my foot buckle has to be tight and I lose boot stiffness adjustment with that buckle if I need to soften the boot, if it's loose my feet just too loose inside, and I'm in 92/265 boot
I just listened to this on my long run, and - as a snowboarder - it was really nice to hear the messaging of equipment to match speed, strength, and skill.
In particular, the idea behind flatter surface vs. footbeds reminded me of the barefoot/natural running ideas that changed running a decade ago. Your guest mentioned a pure carbon-fibre footbed. Could you explain the choice? Would that offer a mechanical advamtage like today's carbon-plate running shoes?
1) IIUC, Tom prefers minimal footbeds over traditional ("posted") custom orthotics because he finds the latter restrict mobility. But not all posted orthotics do this. It depends on your feet and the kind of orthotics you have made for them. I have rigid, supinated feet, and thus my orthotics are posted on their lateral sides, which makes it easier for my feet to roll inward (i.e., pronate), thus *facilitating* their mobility. So the equation is not as simple as posted orthotics = less mobility. It's sometimes posted orthotics = more mobility.
Tom and Brent also talk about how posted orthotics "rein you in" and are thus good up to about 30*. But applying an online protractor to screengrabs of my ski videos indicates my angles go up to 60*. I don't feel my orthotics are limiting me.
2) I agree an overprecise boot can hinder intermediate skiers. But it should be noted that even if you get a boot that fits great, and has the appropriate flex, it could still have entirely the wrong geometry for you. And it's not just about fwd lean. It's also about, e.g., whether the cuff tracks forward, in, or out as you flex. Consider also the Fisher Somatech design (not sure if they're still made), which put you in an abducted stance; that works great for some, and terribly for others. Finding the boot with the right geometry for you is the trickiest thing of all. IMO it's harder than getting the footbeds right, and harder than getting the canting right.
Totally with you there. The hardest part is the overall boot geometry that will suit your feet and legs
Thanks for the great podcast. In the video you mentioned bare footed balance exercises for high level skiers; would it be possible to share them at all?
I have a strength and mobility category on the Big Picture Skiing website and app. In there you will find many exercises for the feet as well as the rest of the body.
One of the best videos and its content is pure schooling! After many years skiing and wondering all these many details, this video has some much to learn. So the Tecnica mach !, 130 flex is under what category? This boots are not letting you to relax.Freeride? What about the Dalbello Krypton 130? Again, super stiff, amazing control and respond, but crazy stifness......Thank you guys! Great video!
Hi Tom, I know you are one to challenge ideas / widely held believes to all aspects skiing. In this interview you both share the same point of view, but it doesn't seem its as clear cut as, the higher your ability the transition should be made to no footbed/flat base (very summaried). I was at a bootfitters recently to get new liners, and eventually we started talking about footbeds. Now I already brought my custom footbeds to the shop (so there wasn't any additional sales opportunity for him), but said I took them out to have a better connection to the ski/different parts of the foot etc. He immediately said, do you listen to Reilly / Tom Gellie / BPS, and if so he can't work with me. It was clear he is on the other side of what you are saying here. He has fitted boots for a long time and a pedorthist. I listened to what he had to say, as I always want to hear both sides of the arguement and form my own conclusion. My understanding is some top ski racers have footbeds as this helps with alignment and also comfort (to the extent they can feel their foot other than just complete pain) which helps them better manipulate their feet and hence the ski. To say removing your footbed will provide a better connection to your foot, to the ski and the snow I don't fully buy. It would be naive to think ski racers with footbeds can't feel/engage seperate parts of your foot (ball, heel, arch etc), adapt their ski/snow interaction they are experiencing and not achieve the same high performance turns if they didn't have a footbed. The argument against footbeds as a con to increase sales feels like a weaker point, as your reputation as a bootfitter (if you been in the game long enough) would surpass the need for a quick buck. There are good points made from both sides conveyed equally as passionately, and I am personally still on the fence about this given the conflicting ideas. It feels like bootfitting is a pseudo-science/dark art. It would be interesting if you talked to someone else who didn't share your view (footbeds at top level skiing) to see if there is some common ground there. In all likelihood, it will be based on the individual's anatomy.
I agree, doing a podcast with a guru boot fitter that totally believes that everyone should have a footbed would be a very interesting podcast! I also agree that boot fitting, when it comes to custom footbeds and shaft alignment/canting is a pseudo-science/dark art.
Well first of all if someone won’t work with you based on who you like or listen to…. Well thats an interesting interesting stand point. So is looking at ski racers as the reason why or why not to choose a footbed. As i say in the beginning, to be bale to see my point of view you need to understand what I have studied, what outcomes come from what is put under the foot and how you think about skiing technique. I dont openly disclose all of these factors that I like about minimal footbeds and how to setup a boot to make it work. Part of why again comes down to technique and how I teach is my IP and how i make a living. if I do disclose my main thoughts its behind the paywall of my website because I know then the person listening has committed to hearing me out. You don’t need to choose one side or the other. Being on the fence is fine. Choose what you like and know why you have done so.
@@TheHELMskiIm up for it. Who do you suggest and I wonder if they would be interested in the discussion?
Is there a good way for non-professional skiers to discern when they've maxxed out their boots and should move up to a higher flex index? Especially given they'll prob be skiing differing conditions all the time from hard to soft, on piste to off piste, groomed pistes to mogulled ones?
Of course in an ideal world you'd prob ski lots of different boots, but in reality you have to select something whilst in a shop. And with flex indices being inconsistent between boots, even more tricky to judge.
In retrospect, the only thing that bothered me about my racing ski boots (Dalbello DRS WC M, Flex 150) was that I didn't buy them much earlier. On a hard slope with GS racing skis (Racetiger GSR FIS 1, 83 m, R 25 m) or with slalom racing skis (Racetiger SLR WC FIS, 1.65 m, R 12.5 m) and carved turns it is of course a dream. That's what they're made for.
But they also work perfectly off-piste with freeride skis (K2 Mindbender 1.79m, center width 108 mm). I just loosen the buckles a bit to get a little more room for movement and absorption. Even the instructor at the freeride training for ski instructors (a member of the national demo team) was of the opinion that freeride ski boots are actually not really good for skiing. They are simply too soft and never fit perfectly. Their only advantage is that it makes it much more pleasant to climb uphill in the snow to reach the next run. For him, that was the main reason why he didn't wear his racing ski boots off-piste. Which, by the way, he actually did on a day when we only left directly from the lift exit without any subsequent additional ascent.
And of course, walking up in knee-deep snow with skis on my back was pretty shitty with racing boots, I almost died.
Mogul skiing also works to my complete satisfaction. With the 25 m radius GS skis you can not only do long, carved turns at full throttle, but also agile, drifted short turns at full throttle. And the racing boots don't bother me at all on the zip line down.
And even when giving ski lessons, I ski in the racing ski boots all day long, as comfortable as slippers. Now, of course, I only fastened the buckles with my little finger.
As a connection between my skis and my feet, I will definitely never use anything other than racing ski boots until the end of my days. With the "normal boots" I never had this kind of performance and fun and at the same time with so little or, to be precise, no pain at all.
I 100% agree on all the above points. Never been happier in my plug boots
@@Bigpictureskiing Today Hintertux Glacier with good visibility, grippy natural snow, an estimated 200 young racers and otherwise hardly any tourists. A French team let me take part in GS training, what more could you want. Skiing is simply awesome, life can go on like that.😎
Hello Tom, it would be great to hear your views on BOA. Maybe a discussion with Brent?
Just uploaded a podcast on that topic tonight.
Hi Tom, I must be psychic! Thanks.
@@garyholland4227 Seriously!!! 😦
Would appreciate any advice/experience/knowledge on this probably common experience I am having regarding ski boots.
TLDR: I have 102mm last feet. I am confident that 130flex race oriented boots be ideal for my style. However, having tried on this kind of boot without any adjusting, I literally couldn’t wear them for more than a minute. Would it be possible to adjust a boot like this for my feet?
For context, I am a passionate skier who loves to ski all kinds of terrain but especially groomers. Pretty much 80% of my skiing distance on an average day is realised using carving. As a freeskier, I put all my effort into getting high edge angles and trying to get my hip to the ground. Currently, I can consistently put my hand on the snow without forcing. I currently ski slalom FIS 159cm skis with a 110flex 26.5 size boot. Having never had a pair of my own boots, or skis for that matter, I am currently trying to find myself a pair that can bring in performance - especially precision - and be relatively comfortable (as in I can ski without too much pain). Hence, the boots I have been drawn too are 130flex racing oriented ski boots.
However, even in the 110flex 26.5 size boots I have, which are at least 0.5 too large in size (to illustrate I would have to almost fully buckle all upper buckles in order to prevent my heel from moving and getting blisters), I would get horrible foot cramp often preventing me from skiing for many minutes. My foot last is 102mm and therefore when I tried an atomic redster 130flex boot with a 96mm last , I could literally feel my blood flow decreasing. I really believe, this kind of boot has the performance I am looking for. Hence, I was wondering if I could ever fit this kind of boot. In the podcast, it is mentioned that certain ski racers can have their 92mm last boots fit their 102mm last feet. While I understand, that these are boots they are only going to use for 10-20 runs a day would it be plausible for me to fit high last (96+mm) 130 flex race oriented boots for daily use after having them adjusted by a bootfitter? If so, to what extent may they need to be adjusted? It feels like milling would be mandatory.
It would easily be done. My feet are wider than yours at 105mm and 107mm. Ive made 92mm and 96mm last boots fit for all day comfort. It took grinding and punching but its more than worth it. A boot fitter that is happy to work with you on this will make it happen.
Hey, If my feet is 27cm long and normally I wear 27.5cm shoes should I try smaller ski boots size like 26,5? In some videos they say that we should buy smaller size, but in others they say we should add like 1cm to normal size... I feel first is correct if we are looking for peefect fit or am I wrong ?
i don't know your feet but for me yes, my 27.3 cm foot (smallest one) is comfortable in a 26.5 boot tecnica and rossi (comfortable after they are worn in)
So I feel like getting plug boots, but I don’t really fit the descriptions you mention. I got myself a pair of Atomic Hawx 130 boots and they’re just not giving me the stability that I’d expect when leaning on the fronts. I hopped into them on the slope and thought: woah, these are not stiff at all. What do I do?
Can’t answer this question sorry. Need to be in person or at least over zoom to check multiple factors. One being leaning on the front of your boots. Good skiers don’t lean on the front of their boots. They balance through their feet and use the ankle to flex forward.
Your answer helps a lot, though. I tend to enjoy skiing the most when I find the middle/the centre of the balance/lean and stay there more or less. Yet I still hear people saying: crush the front of the boots! So thanks a lot for this! You’re great. By the way the video about the hand to the snow drill is top notch, a “classic” to watch before every season and show to every skier.
Somehow I always tend to not have footbeds or if there is one it has to be flat and not soft. Seams that footbeds take away connection to the ski and you lose provided information from the ski.
I feel this too. Others dont. It’s personal.
@@Bigpictureskiing And another odd thing I have is if my feed doesn't get information from skis they become kind of lazy, and then I have to be more aware and think all the time to keep them active. If they get information then I don't need to think it just happens naturally.
The carbon inserts rock. Hassle to move between boots though.
He’s just added new versions that are more trim to fit and you buy in packs of 3-5
@@Bigpictureskiing What carbon inserts are you guys referring to? Thanks!
Plug boots provide a very special quality of pain very intimate and only approved for professional masochists. You must like pain. even the liners of plugs are painful even outside the shell. Fitting the liner is required, often cutting out parts and splitting toe box seams to relieve pain but only a little. My boot fitting team gets sad quickly when I grimace putting my boots on between operations. I tell them with tears in my eyes it's not all their fault, I still like them. Find a good sadist as a boot fitter... they understand your pain.... but that doean't stop them from torturing your feet. ruclips.net/video/K8fuBiOwNmk/видео.html
Promo-SM
So if a just moved up to a Head Raptor WCR 120/130 from an Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 am I gonna get my ass kicked? 😂
I think you’ll have a better experience. The plastic change alone should feel smoother and damper
@@Bigpictureskiing exactly what I was going for! I’m 6’1 215 and a physically strong skier and I could feel the Hawx bellow and pinch my instep when I really got into the flex
“Your gear is not going to ski for you”
So true!!!!
when your level 5 Canadian instructors
gets you to undo all your buckles and do ski exercises
and when the teacher rips turns with boots unbuckled gives you perspective
on skills
I have a flat feet and tried to use two different custom footbeds. However, they are very uncomfortable as the common wisdom is to give flat feet a lot of arch support to modify the feet.
This can be a very bad solution in skiing as it can cause circulation problems. It also made it difficult for me to access fore/aft as the high arch support created a teeter-totter that locked my feet on the middle.
After testing multiple different soles, molding boots and trying paddings, I noticed that the best solution was just to use flat footbed and go down one boot size.
This process took three seasons. I think many intermediate skiers with flat feet don't the patience to find a best solution for them, if the professional boot fitter recommends them custom insoles that cause them pain and make it difficult to ski.
This video was kind of a validation for me. Maybe different foot shapes are something you could address in your future videos to help people to enjoy skiing more.🎿
If your feet are genetically as flat as mine are a bunch of arch support feels like crumpled wad of cardboard, don't do it get a proper foot bed from a podiariast if necessary. other wise a very low profile arch support with the thinnest sole. You mainly need to take up excess space under the foot to keep the bony parts inside their custom designed torture chambers. get your footbed before dissecting and destroying your new, very expensive boots.