Electrocution Risk From On-Street EV Charging ⚡️🚘
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- Expert alert over electrocution risk from on-street EV charging
As the Government announces subsidies for on-street EV charging, experts reveal to us their grave concerns about the risk to pedestrians of electrocution…
…a man has been arrested following the death of electrician and TV star George Gilbey on a site in Essex…
…and the van mods that could see your insurance bills soar…
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Italian second fix installation 👉 • Secrets of Italian Ele...
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Time Stamps ⏱
00:00 Electrical News Weekly 08th April 2024
00:39 Experts alert over risk of electrocution for pedestrians from EV chargers
02:14 Investigation launched into death of famous electrician
02:56 Have you made any modifications to your van?
03:29 Electrician lucky to walk away after van flips
04:00 CK unveils new version of armour slice cable stripper
04:40 Question of the week
05:18 A great product - The Jakoda socket tester holder
05:52 Fluke is offering a buy one get one free offer on testers
06:15 Would you like to go to Italy for free?
07:05 We've just been to Italy for a second fix project
07:25 We want to hear from you
07:40 Thanks to our premium partners
09:00 Challenge words and winners
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£22.74 for a single trailing socket to keep your plug tester safe? April fools was last week mate 🤣
thats a bit of an ask for a pound shop plug with a bit of string in it...
Yeh wtf 😂😂 that guy invented that problem and then charged a fortune 😅
Don't know about getting electicitified by on street chargers but the charge for using them is absolutely shocking!
😂
👍🤣
That will change.
As for guy who sadly lost his life my heart felt condolences go out to his family and friends
As for the socket tester holder I made my own at a cost of £1.50 .
As the insurance companies targeting modified trade vans thats Bundy buggerd .
Add in the complication of your next-door neighbour potentially being on a different phase or leg, then the complications and risk only increase. Even with the current guidance the almost shared driveway space between the average UK semi-detached houses can be a questionable sport, when you squeeze yourself between cars trying to get into your own. Adjacent houses on long streets can be on different transformers, let alone phases. Of course, everyone has suitable areas for an earth rod, well away from earth rods from houses adjacent to and immediately behind their average new-build estate....
Some good points here. 🤔👍
For AC charging it's a problem. Not for DC.
Why should it be more dangerous if both vehicles are on different phases? Could you please explain? What combination of faults and code violations do you assume?
I think the issue is between two EVs close together and being plugged in for charging, not an EV and any car parked next to it.
So the issue is the distance between two charging posts, each of which may be on a different circuit.
@@Paul-yh8km Again, how can that be an issue? If the PE of either charging point is done according to standards it's properly earthed, supply PE/PEN is properly earthed and there is no significant difference in potential between the vehicle bodies. It doesn't matter if it's on the same phase or even the same transformer. It's all on the same potential and a buildup of dangerous voltage is not possible. Correct?
operatic and buddy Holly? Great job as always Joe 👏
Good guesses and thanks very much Sean. 😊
yey thanks for the win.
My local council has installed a number of 5kW chargers onto lamp-posts. Could these pose a similar risk, eg if a car charging from a lamppost is next to one charging from a home charger with cable across the pavement?
I am sure a big brown envelope to the IET will sort out any misgivings about off street charge points.
Marvellous timing after a debate I was having with an expert on the internet over on twitter. Excellent work brother spark 💪
What are the Regulations on “Earthing requirements for Inverters/ portable power stations e.g. Ecoflow Delta 2, and petrol generators ?”. Love the videos.
Look up BS7909, depending on the Generation size, no connection to general mass of ground is required.
Yeah but with a floating earth you still can only have 1 item of class 1 equipment fed from it( ie not 2 accessible points ) because of the same shock risk @@jameshughesdon5370
Because it's not fixed infrastructure, the guidance would be in the portable systems instructions.
There are literally hundreds of thousands of scenarios where portable tools and equipment could be in a dangerous electrical situation.
@@Paul-yh8kmBut you are supposed to be using:
1. Isolation transformers
2. Yellow coloured tools which operate at 110 volts which are centre tapped giving a line voltage of 55 volts.
Where's the risk?
As the generator is not earthed there would be no earth reference for the centre tap (unless you pushed a stake in the ground and connected the centre tap to that) so in the event of one leg of the transformer being grounded by a fault the other leg would go to 110V.
Would PME help in this scenario ? The the reference point of ground earthing would be common to all EV charge points so obviously with a risk assessment would this overcome
The 2 accessible points at different potential ??
No. Because you are relying on the physical ground as the means of connection between two separate EV chargers' earths, and that ground has a poor value of impedance.
A poor (high) value of impedance means a high voltage across it when current flows.
And you can't control reliably what the value of impedance is between those two connections into the ground.
@@deang5622 It's still not an issue because you can't have a live chassis on an EV connected to an EVSE. That would result in a dead short as the chassis is directly connected tom both neutral and ground or the charge simply won't start.
Marvin the Martian slipped in there
It’s strange that your having such serious discussions about the dangers of EV charging. We don’t have any discussions in Sweden, at least not that’s very wide spread.
Maybe the Swedish are not blithering idiots and hypothetical discussions of vanishingly small probability incidents are not necessary. Over here he have people that like to lick mains cables because they've grown in a consequence free environment.
Do you have wide spread use of TNCS earthings systems?
@@efixx We use either a TNC or a TNS supply from the grid. For some years the TNS was favored to since the combined protective earth/neutral could become undersized due to harmonics. This is no longer a problem, or it was to expensive to run all cables as TNS so now the power suppliers are back in favor of TNC.
Yet we never discuss outside class 1 lighting
That is because it is very very safe and the man is scaremongering.
Operatic Marvin 🎤🎶
yay!!! we need more regulation and "expert" opinion...
Should have used isolation transformers in stead of capacitors
It’s strange that all building sites use 110V for safety but running 230V across a pavement is OK
fleeting, joy
is the cost really that much higher to just instal the ev charge point across the pavement?
Additional work, both physical and paper... 🤔
I will confess, I am struggling to see the potential risk scenario here. If this is with TNCS systems is this to do with loss of combined PEN? And if so, is the problem not solved by earth electrodes and PEN loss protection, which is available on some chargers. Therefore, is it just a regulation risk - e.g. it is still legal to install a system which could become dangerous. or is this a more fundamental issue?
If there is somebody who understands what the actual risk is and can enlighten me
Nothing to do with PEN protection.
On AC chargers all to do with the phase relationship of the output of two chargers.
Firstly you can't guarantee there is no phase shift on the output of a charger relative to its input.
Second, some chargers, notably solar types have inverters in them and you can guarantee nothing about the phase of the output from them.
The phase of adjacent chargers will not be synchronised to each other.
Third, there is a possibility two chargers next to each other could be on different phases of the 3 phase supply, meaning you could have a sizeable potential difference across the output of one charger to the other.
So the risk is not theoretical, but it is not necessarily present.
It is like having two UPS's at home.
There is no phase synchronisation between them. And they are not using a common earth.
If they were commoned to the same earth, that common earth ensures that the neutral on each are both at the same potential, which is zero or very close to zero.
@@deang5622 Thanks, could this issue therefore be solved by having a suitable safety isolation voltage in the design - i.e. greater than the 250 volt we would see in a typical domestic appliance?
@@gavinminion8515 Anything above 50 Volts AC is considered dangerous, in that it has the potential to cause death by electrocution. It's 120 Volts for DC.
Given the lack of phase synchronisation between EV chargers (AC here), to limit the maximum potential difference to 50 volts would require a maximum voltage output from each charger of 25 volts.
At that voltage, the chargers would certainly not be fast chargers! It wouldn't be practical.
Isolation transformers with a 1:1 ratio on the output of the AC chargers would help here. But I hate to think how big they would be on a level 2 charger at 22kW! It will probably weigh half a ton.
@@deang5622 Sorry, I think you misunderstood my question. I am talking about the isolation between electrical circuits and potential points of contact (external conductive surfaces). Given that we can design a safe enclosure for a 415V electrical system, and given that the phase differences you described would amount to a maximum of 415V, surely we can therefore design chargers to the same standards?
@@deang5622you talk with a lot of authority, I still don’t get it though, type 2 connector on cars is 3 phase, it expects to see all 3 phases, the grid is one synchronised machine. Even if we imagined some sort of island inverter driven supply that’s out of phase with the grid, I don’t see how you get to a voltage that’s beyond the safety rating of the car and equipment, every car I know is good to 440vac, and beyond that I imagine it becomes a problem for the car before it is for anyone around it.
Operatic
Puglia
Operatic and Marshon are the two words.
So you’re saying that EV car bodies are live when charging? First I’ve heard of that.
Provides an earth path and potentially a live path too
theyre grounded. but if theres a difference between the ground of one and the ground of another, theres a current path. just like static electricity
'..... in the event of a fault... '
Operatic and buddy Holly
Martian and Buddy Holly
Operatic and Marvin the marshal.
Good guesses Kevin.😊
No, surely not🤦🏻
Martian and operatic 🤙
Martian and Operatic🤞
Martian & Operatic 🤞🤞🤞
This is talking about a standard EV, connected via a compliant type 2 cable to a compliant wallbox charger. These have been used to charge millions of EVs all over the world for over a decade now and there is not even a single reported case of someone being electrocuted by this equipment. I think this puts in perspective the click-bait thumbnail and the irrational fear this is trying to create. An awful lot of unlikely and concurrent faults would need to occur for anything untoward to happen and over 10 years of zero reported incidents puts the purported risk in its true perspective.
There is no risk even if the car drops in water… once everyone believes that it is the time to finally reduce costs by dramatically increasing voltage… 800v and beyond!
Martian window sticker and operatic music good luck all
Buddy Holly and operatic
Martian and Operatic
marvin and operatic, still no goody bag 😒
Operatic Martian?
Marvin the marshal , pizza oven
Isn't that a bit far fetched when talking about an area with a proper TN-System and standard confirming install of the charging points? What kind of scenarios are there in britain that something like this could be an issue?
Street lighting could be fed from a different supply transformer to properties in a street or have a different earthing arrangement.
@@efixx Thanks for the reply. But even then - the distribution network has coordinated grounding of the PEN in regular intervals, many (or all in case of newly built or renovated areas) of the end consumers' PEN are grounded, public lighting supply PEN is grounded in regular intervals as well, even the charging point is ussually grounded, correct? It's all nailed to earth.
Where could a difference in potential between two vehicle bodies even originate? How can it get to touch voltage >= 50V without tripping at least one of the RCD / leakage monitoring devices involved?
Isn't that a completely theoretic problem that would require a combination of many different faults and standard violations to become acually dangerous?
@@CymaphoreNo.
It is not just about earthing.
There are two problems here. Earthing is one. The light standard can be on a different phase to the EV charger.
Worst case they could be 120° apart, and the maximum voltage differential would be 400Volts RMS.
@@CymaphoreRCD's are nothing to do with a touch voltage. They are detecting a current.
@@deang5622 Why should that be a problem?
I'm living in continental europe. Here, every room is on a different phase. When we install in workshops or commercial kitchens even two sockets next to each other could be on different phases. There is nothing wrong or problematic about that when done according to standards... That's why I'm wondering.
Martian and operatic
That’s ridiculous, I don’t see why EV charging on street is any different to side by side in a public charging , many have different suppliers right next to each other, who’s to say either are connected to the same network..
Or perhaps the installers of the public charging infrastructure performed the required risk assessment?
It's usually a single company that installs public charging and it's usually on a site controlled/owned by one company, so the details of earthing and circuits would be better known.
eg. Gridserve would design the whole site.
Another individual that thinks they are better trained and more knowledgeable than the engineers in the IET.
You should be on a comedy show. I would pay to watch you.
Where does this foolishness come from?
martian and operatic wouild be my guess!
Madness
I think it’s Martian and operatic
For people with on street parking outside their terraced house, I would install a swing out arm from the first floor which dangles the charge cable down directly from above the footprint of the vehicle. So there's no trailing cable across the pavement.
Kids would love those.
The video showed a different solution. There was a lady plugging in the charger and you can see the cable is fed through a channel embedded in the pavement similar to drainage channels.
Evlousion. Martian
Operatic and pizza
The EV charger and EV are protected by a RCD, charging on street won’t render the RCD protection function.
And what if the RCD fails? It doesn't trip because there is too much leakage current?
Bye bye Mr. Smith, we've just killed you.
It is better to design it in such a way to prevent an electric shock risk from occurring rather than rely on a protective device to prevent electrocution.
@@deang5622 if theres leakage current, thatll only make it trip faster 😉
@@techheck3358 The magnitude of leakage current does not impact the speed at which the RCD trips. That's a misperception. So a 100mA RCD is not necessarily going to trip more slowly than a 30mA RCD.
I realise you may be joking but there is a misperception which I wanted to clear up.
The presence of leakage current beyond the trip threshold for that particular device will cause it to trip.
@@deang5622 right. But if you have a 30mA RCD with 20mA of leakage from other appliances, you only need 10mA to trip. The leakage brings you closer to the threshold
@@techheck3358 Depends on whether the leakage is DC or AC and whether the RCD can handle it.
If you've got 20mA of DC leakage current on a Type AC or type A RCD in a non fault scenario, then it ain't gonna trip when a genuine earth fault occurs.
martian, operatic
Marvin the martian and operatic
“Electrocution Risk From On-Street EV Charging”.GBNews ,Talk TV and Geoff Buys cars are gonna love that 🤣.Oh well at least Electric Cars don’t give you cancer and make your kids cough .
Please don't use AI for the art
Why not
We might.... 😬
@@efixx because I switch over every time I see ai rubbish
the
Have you tried to touch "Bare metal" on a modern car. Go on, have a go! Go outside now and try to find a bare metalic surface? You can't, well you can, but you've almost certainly got to lift the bonnet to do it! This is because modern cars are very very very well corrosion protected. Everything on the outside is coated, painted, insulated, trimmed, covered or in someway protected.
And who the heck spends time touching both all the cars they pass AND all the street furniture at the same time? (and how long are their arms!)
Go on, try it again, walk down the street and try and simultaneously touch some BARE metal on the car AND some bare metal on street furniture? It's litterally such alow risk as to be irrelevant......
Well if Musk's truck ever gets sold in the UK, you have a bare metal example!
That's an incredibly stupid response.
We are talking about a charging electrical infrastructure that will be around for many years.
You cannot rely on current manufacturing techniques of painting cars to prevent electrocution.
If you think a car's paintwork is a sufficient technical control to prevent electrocution, you should not be an electrician. If you are not an electrician, don't train to be one.
A key focus of an electrician has to be safety.
@@deang5622 er,not only am i an electrician, chances are the car you drive has my electrical and electronic system in it, and that includes BEVs up to 900vdc!
real safety must incorporate and consider practical risks. I mean, we don't mandate that everyone has to wear a fire proof hat just in case they catch on fire, not because you can't catch on fire, but because it is vanishiningly unlike.
Real risk is probability multiplied by severity.
Here, not only is the severity actually quite low (most people do NOT die from direct contact to 240Vac) but the probability is vanishingly low because it would have to be a multiple fault, ie multiple earth faults, earth path failures, and the requirement to touch both of those at some conductive point. This, in reality simply does not happen often enough to warrant significant mitigation.
You also need to consider that a coating ABSOLUTE IS CONSIDERED ELECTIRCAL INSULATION.
Everything you use and touch has creepage and clearance determined by sensible legislation, and coatings absolutely are routinely used. Everything from a toaster to a BEV has at somepoint some thin coating or membrane being used as an isolation device. For X class caps, to PC solder resist, to varnish on transformers, paint and anodising on heat sinks etc etc
When you consider ALL this, then you find that the best route is to maximise safety WHERE SIGNIFICANT RISK EXISTS. ie it is better to spend time, money and effort fixing the most danegrous, most probable risks first. Wasting time and money on ridiculous risks that in the real world present no appreciable danger (question, so far, in nearly 15 years of BEVS, how many people i the world have recieved and electrical shock from them???) is in fact the stupid thing to do.......
@@Paul-yh8km ok, so there is a single example, so now to add to
1) Simultaneous earth faults that are not mitigated by alternate means
2) cars parked close enough together to touch
3) weird people who spend their time touching cars in the street
we also need to add
3) Both cars must be cybertrucks (which not currently certified for EU sale)
Sorry, but i'll file that under "so unlikely as to litterally be a non problem"
🙂
@@maxtorque2277 not to mention, an earth rod costs £9!
The "expert alerts" are so blatantly anti-EV propaganda, it's not even funny anymore. How often does it even happen that someone puts his hands on two blank metal parts of two adjacent cars, or one car and a street light, and both happen to have an electrical fault at the same time that the onboard charging system does not detect? EVSE equipment is generally required to either have an internal GFCI or be connected to a GFCI-protected circuit and be able to detect earthing faults. It is nearly impossible for the alerted problems to occur without malicious tampering with the involved equipment.
Who exactly goes round touching two cars at the same time ? This is just more pathetic anti-EV FUD
I can imagine when cars parked up closely to each other as there was a picture in the show. People can easily touch two cars next to each other in the summer with less insulation clothes on...
And it's also assuming both vehicles have ground faults.
@@TheNewFaceOfHSP Only one vehicle having an earth fault (or another earth fault in the installation supplying it) might do the trick.
Done it casually myself passing between cars.
So that Ship that crashed into and demolished the bridge in Baltimore was that carrying electric cars too ?
This just shows how there is no common sense in the political world. The risk of cables all over the place was obvious to some of us so why not to the powers that be.
Surprised that Efixx has taken the click bait route on EV charging safety. Why not just report on the technical discussions within the IET code rather than amp it up. A scary Headline and AI generated image all in one go just what I might expect from some other channels.
Delving into the intricacies of the IET code of practice isn't a news story. However, the fact that the government launched a taxpayer-funded grant scheme and ignored the requirements outlined in the COP is.
Martian , operatic.
Ps I won the other week and you never got back to me
Martian and Operatic
Martian and Operatic
Martian and Operatic
Martian and Operatic
Martian and Operatic