Bear in mind that I’m not married to any of these choices and I am far from claiming this is an objective and purely fact-based bracket. I’m also making these picks in the moment without prior contemplation/research and trying not to spend an eternity thinking about each and every one. The bracket is also littered with characters with unseen/unknown potential, and that’s half the fun. I try to be consistent, and then forget about the precedences that I set for myself lol. TL;DR, don’t take it too seriously and feel free to present your own matchup outcomes without being rude :)
I’ll just say one thing cause I’ve already written too many comments... I think Sora beats MoM because despite being able to see the future, Sora can rewrite it. Also, even if it would look dumb, MoM only having 1 eye would be very cool, because he is clearly based on the Norse god Odin, who gave an eye for knowledge of the world. Also, KH Dark Road’s Odin appears to only have 1 visible eye, and luxu lost an eye too. I think that’s a cool parallel to explore, even if it means he has freaky cats eyes
Check it: Aqua and M Nort never fought. But, i believe that Aqua no games no brain fog no messing around could beat Terra. Plus the Lingering Will which i would say is just as strong if not a little bit weaker than Terra, beat Terranort who is relative to M Nort *on paper*. Basically i think Aqua could beat M Nort up until he gets the xblade
hey, commentary is making me feel like i missed a lot of lore involving the master of masters and the foretellers. i watched back cover, played through re:mind up to the point where you gain control of riku and get the data org battles (havent fought any of them yet tho), and watched all the melody of memory cutscenes. so what am i missing? from what im getting from your comentary, it sounds as if xigbar isnt the only org member that has been confirmed to be one of the foretellers. also you mentioned the master of masters being in some battle that i dont remember happening
@@technobecian If we're just talking about gun skill, then Xigbar's weapons have more modes than Clayton's shotgun - like fast-shooting pistol mode and long-range sniper rifle mode. This is, of course, not accounting for Xigbar's space magic.
Oh, hey. I made this bracket. In addition to what Patty said about not taking it all too seriously, here are a few things to keep in mind while watching the video: 1. Beast not being in this is a huge snub, no doubt about it. When I was piecing together the bracket, I really emphasized people who use swords, or some kind of weapon, so Beast slipped through the cracks. Odd that Simba and Scar made the cut though. In any case, Beast would be a 13 seed and get trashed by Xion. 2. I created this thinking that everyone would fight with every ability they have. So even though Sora is without Donald and Goofy for this bracket, he can still use his drive forms. Young Nort can reverse the battle. Master Nort can bust out the goat suit and change the battlefield if it’d help. You get the idea. 3. Keep in mind that determining the seed lines and the creation of a bracket is a subjective process in itself for the bracket maker. Think I really fucked something up? The good news is that your version of the bracket can reflect how you feel about each character’s strength. If I’m full of shit, you can correct me. That’s one of the fun things about a bracket that’ll never happen. It can bend to your tastes completely and you can’t be wrong. It’s like that old goat says: Rule 11: It’s all just a game so let loose and have fun with it!
@@newyorknole2225 It’s possible. It’s tough to place mythical beings. One might assume that they’re invincible. That being said, Zeus gets bodies by the titans in KH3, and Genie-Jafar can be physically attacked in KH2. So it appears both a god and a genie can be harmed. I also didn’t want to have Disney characters be too high in the seed lines. Something about that feels weird to me. Regardless, I don’t begrudge anyone who thinks these characters can make a run in this bracket, and possible meet up in the championship. I just had to make the assumption that most people would not make that leap.
@@innerlightproductions4987 I feel a better way to go about this is to take into consideration the characters fighting in field advantage for both of them and then thinking of how much of a fight the other could put up in that same field and then vice versa. So, like for Vanitas, the keyblade graveyard would be where has the advantage because he’s clearly familiar with the landscape and quite capable of just blitzing his opponents by riding a storm of dead keyblades. With Sora vs MoM... Why is MoM on the list? I feel he should’ve been excluded for lack of info and replaced with someone like Beast who’s been in 2 games and has some decent showings of his strength rather than a relatively unknown character. Or maybe Auron, or Zack, or even the player character of Union Cross.
I don't know how much of Greek mythology Disney decided to change. Hercules did end up being Hera's child there… I wouldn't sleep on the Titans being able to beat Zeus. In Disney are they just monsters or are they still gods themselves? If Zeus got tag teamed by gods from the generation before his own, assuming Titans→Olympians, that's not a low showing for him imo. If they're 'just' monsters, I have a hard time seeing anyone take them while they're not multitasking and locking Zeus down. Like how do they stack up to Chernabog? If they're each equivalent, that's quite a pickle.
very late reply, but I was wondering: are we considering temporary powers? e.g. Xemnas being infused with KH, Old Man Xehanort using the X-Blade, Marluxia using his final battle form from CoM? I know one of the more odd brackets was Old Man Xehanort vs. Terranort, but when you consider that Xehanort has wielded the X-Blade and Terranort doesn't it makes a lot more sense to put him ahead, even if Terranort is in theory "a better body". this is normally why I prefer in-game feats only when comparing characters, but given Disney characters and all the foretellers, that isn't as easy to do here.
I think jokes aside, that might actually be an interesting angle for them to take with MoM. We've had a main villain with enormous powers and skills. It would be cool to have one that relies entirely on manipulating people more powerful but less intelligent than him to get what he wants.
@@MBRSimsThat would be cool to be honest. In the final battle he would summon the strongest threat we ever saw and once this is done we have a battle with MOM, there we just smack him with a single combo while he tries to bargain with us. Kinda like the final boss in demons souls who is just laying there until we put him out of his misery.
It would have been nice for the end of KH3 to involve Sora and friends (old and new) pleasantly overwhelming his mom the night he returns for dinner. Nomura probably reconsidered because that would be too much like where the wild things are.
I am very disappointed you did not add Pluto to this list. From what I can gather, Pluto is deadass the most powerful character in Kingdom Hearts. For starters, in the KH1 Ultimania, Nomura has stated that Pluto traveled to many different worlds that we did not visit. But how? We know he met up with The King in Traverse Town, but after that, the next we see him is going through a Dark Corridor. Mickey could not have used that Dark Corridor because Mickey does not have that power. And that Dark Corridor is only one, not many, in which we know Pluto has traveled to. He has no Gummi Ship to do so, so how else did he do it? And speaking of Dark Corridors, he can travel not only through them, but the Lanes Between with absolutely no issue as we see him do in Kingdom Hearts II, in which we know unless you are a Princess of Heart or shielded by a Black Coat, you literally become corrupted or get destroyed (I don't remember) and we see Pluto succumb to neither of these things. This, on top of many reasons, I feel should be addressed. Was it because you knew Pluto would be too powerful and could not compete with anybody else? Or was it because you overlooked the sheer power of this dog? I await a very detailed and well put together response, Pat.
Terranort was severely underestimated. He blitzed Ventus and Lea and was gonna keep the streak going until Donald killed himself to stop him, using the strongest version of Flare ever used in a Square property. He was gonna kill Ven, Aqua and Sora singlehandedly in a 1v3 until Terra intervened. In terms of raw power, he is definitely stronger than Master Xehanort (assuming he isn't using the X-blade). In a fair fight, he's only ever had trouble with Lingering Will.
Not to downplay the one time they let a Disney character do something objectively kickass, but that is far from the strongest flare in a Square property simply because all the Bahamuts exist. It is probably the strongest actual spell in KH canon though
@@TheWonkster Wrong. Donald used Zettaflare. Zettaflare was used by bahamuth in FF14 to destroy the world. Donald is on par with bahamuths in terms of strongest flare.
@@CaptainStraya Late, but Re:Mind did have him still have trouble against Lingering Will although Sora did interrupt that fight if I remember correctly. Plus, I'd say losing to Aqua was at least partially due to losing his memory plus the internal struggle of Xehanort v Terra. KH3 has a mostly realised Terranort, although we could assume the internal struggle continues
@@CaptainStraya late af, but Terranort didn’t lose to aqua, he lost to himself, throughout the fight you see that the only reason aqua even stood a chance was due to the internal conflict of xehanort vs terra and we even get to see Terra helping aqua by taking over here and there. To make matters worse when none of this is happening she gets severely perception blitzed by him when he one shots Ventus in kingdom hearts 3. To be completely honest I haven’t seen a good aqua feat at all whatsoever, other than consistently getting toyed around by Vanitas who held back on his power until the keyblade graveyard, the only character I’ve seen aqua beat herself without anything helping her was Braig
Decent list but I feel like the MoM kind of ruins it, since it's just entirely speculation. We have no reason to believe he's physically strong. I mean if I had to bet for when we eventually see what he can do I think he will be deceptively strong but for the sake of this bracket he takes wins he has no place taking. If we're being strict on what the gods, genie and cloud can do I think we should also be strict on the MoM who thus far has only been shown to be a strategist. If he was replaced with Beast it probably would have made for a more fair and interesting bracket imo but hey it's fun to speculate on what the MoM can do I get it.
Bracket maker here. Regarding MoM, he was tough to place. I defaulted to giving him a 1 seed because, as the OG Keyblade wielder we see in the series and the direct mentor to other characters we’ve seen who kick ass (Aced and Invi specifically), I think it’s safe to assume that he can hold his own. If one were to fill out the bracket and think he’s unproven, which is a fine take, then they should probably have him lose to Peter Pan, or Genie for sure. Patty seemed pretty comfortable speculating what MoM can do. Others, perhaps appropriately, might not want to assume what he can do when filling out the bracket.
The most important thing is we know he has constant visions of the future from his keyblade. If he has said keyblade in the fight, you will never touch him, because he knows what you're doing before you do. It's an easy sweep to the top with that alone imo.
Gameplay is the mechanism for the player themselves to advance the story but cutscenes are the only "canon" power level as far as I'm concerned. Gameplay can also vary based on difficulty and build.
I mostly agree, but I think there are exceptions to that rule. Like lingering will, since you only know about most of his powers thanks to gameplay (at least before KH3)
From what we've seen he's mainly been extremely knowledgeable. I agree with him beating Genie since there's a high chance he'd know how to trap a Genie, but less sure with Sephiroth
To be fair, he's called the master of masters for a reason, he trained the foretellers and Luxu, who are incredibly powerful in their own right. It's hard to scale that, but I think he'd have to at least be on par with Yen Sid
@rangedweevil6150 Consider it like this, look at how teaser/secret boss characters been treated before Lingering Will Xemnas Young Xehanort Xehanort in 2FM cinematic Yozura Even Roxas in KH1 secret ending We all immediately see how they fight or thier main weapons, Masters is the sole exception and he has appeared in about 4 games now where we still don't know his abilities. I think it's on purpose where he'll either not fight or have something so unique the franchise hasn't done before. It'll be so disappointing if he just pulled out a keyblade like everyone else.
I really don't see how Riku beats Sora. We've seen Sora defeat a darkness-charged up Riku, Sora has a wide range of abilities with his keyblade that Riku doesn't, Sora is the one that gets sent in for the final battle while Riku is just another one of the guardians of light that creates the portal, and Riku struggles with a few heartless in the RoD. Who's the strongest enemy Riku has even defeated? Base Ansem SoD?
Granted he was far from defeated, but I feel the fact that Riku was able to hold his own against Master Xehanort possessing a younger and more able body (Young Xehanort) who had the ability to stop and rewind time deserves a mention because that's fairly impressive lmao Sora would still realistically win though
@@phoenixkh93 Technically speaking Roxas scales to Sora, and while they were both at half strength(because Roxas's "full power" is half of Sora's own power), he holds the advantage for the entire fight they had and would have won if he knew Sora could call back his Key-Blade.
"Mickey holds Riku back" "Me looking at the scene where Riku was trapped by a Demon Tower, and Mickey had to free him." Yeah, totally held him back there.
@@theamazingb2448 Not to mention a hate boner for Mickey that could very well have clouded their judgement. I mean, COULD Sora beat Mickey? With plot armor, sure he could. But otherwise I really don't see Sora beating someone with that many more years of training and experience than him. I just don't.
@@bubblebuddy6920 Okay, but Drive Forms weren't allowed in these match ups. So your point is invalid. Also MICKEY CAN FREEZE TIME for a surprisingly long time. That alone makes him completely busted and untouchable.
Titans in the mythology were the first sons of Uranus, god of the universe, and Gaia, goddess of the earth, who were incredibly strong, the wars between the gods and the Titans remade the earth, with the gods squeaking out a tight victory so they’re nothing to be scoffed at
what's really laughable is hermes getting bodied by pain and panic two characters that didn't even exist in greek mythology but I digress we could also think about it this way it's said in the movie herc has to drink every last drop of the mortality potion to become fully mortal meaning he must consume 100 percent of it he does drink all of it except a single drop which I would say is equivalent to a single percent meaning herc has 1 percent of zeuses strength so if herc can beat demyx by there own logic then zeus should beat xenhanort since I doubt demyx only has 1 percent of his strength like yeah he is stronger than demyx but clearly not by that much
I feel like we are forgetting that Sora had fought in every fight at the end of kh3, a battle that took a whole day and he helped everybody in their fight so by the time Sora fought Xehanort he was likely tired and beat while Xehanort was still fresh
Fantastic video guys - I had a really tough day of work yesterday and watched the first half last night. I laughed out loud several times! I feel like there are a lot a KH channels which are just so *serious*. Your videos are so creative and capture the sense of fun I felt playing the games as a child. KH was my all time favourite series growing up and I had no one to talk to about it, so this channel is definitely one of my happy places.
Thats why I was genuinely surprised that he didn’t even make it to the final 8. You got to remember that Aqua only beat him in the prime of him just being beaten by Lingering Will AND Terra’s consciousness fight back Xehanort back at the same time. That base KH3 scene in the Keyblade Graveyard where he bodies everyone just solidifies just how strong he was. Even if Donald took him out with Zettaflare, he took out the TRUE Dandelion Ventus and then completely bodied Axel within 2 seconds, among some of the most powerful people in the series. It’s literally Xehanort in a Healthy body and ALL the knowledge he has while he also has full control over Terra’s Heartless. I mean cmon, Terranort was so strong that his Heartless and Nobody are considered to be some of the most strongest villians in KH. For what its worth, you can argue that Terra technically is the strongest because of that and that he is such a strong host and with such a strong heart that the Guardian and Xemnas are comparable to Terra since it’s technically his Heartless and Nobody. Btw, Zettaflare is the most OP VERSION of flare ever to be cast (they follow metric unit prefixes, Zetta is the the seventh and is 10^21. Teraflare in Final Fantasy 14 restarted the world, so Zettaflare was literal the only thing they could do to disintegrate this man)
@@zachtemoro2116 I should correct you that Terra-Xehanort was still active and able to snare his three opponents even after he was beaten in gameplay. It took a non-combat situation (Terra's heart rebelling) to "win the fight".
@@MrAuthor3DS oh I know, I didn’t include that because I find him one shoting Ven and Axel within a blink of an eye more impressive and the fact that they literally needed the HIGHEST level spell possible in order to take him out. Also even though Lingering Will was kinda cheap shotted in Re:Mind, technically he was losing before that happened and whether or not future Sora did come back in base KH3 to fight Terranort, its still a win for Terranort that LW died and future Sora was defeated. I have no argument I could come up with that Sora could win against Terranort, he is just too strong. Even when you knock him down he just gets right back up with the same strength he had a second ago
@@zachtemoro2116 There is some arguments, the 13 data battles are canon to the story and Sora's data was able to defeat Terranort's data, and if i remember, Nomura said that Future Sora was grabbed by the guardian because he was tired (he defenitly fought way more people than Terranort before that fight).
On Sora needing to be saved by Donald and Goofy during his Xehanort fight, we need to also consider that Sora had already participated in EVERY clash with the darknesses AND dived after his friends after the wave of darkness did...that, which ymx said had consequences. He had really gone through it that day. You could also argue that he was off his game due to watching Kairi get bodied. So I think in a fight where Sora and Xehanort are both fresh, Sora wouldn’t struggle.
I've been saying ever since I finished KH3 for the first time that we NEED that solo Riku game. This could be their chance to go hard in the action game to appease that side of the fanbase (which I am on) before going back to Sora gameplay, hopefully having learned some new things to make the gameplay going forward even better.
I think this really depends on whether you consider limitcut data fights and yozora as Canon. If sora beats all those people's data, which is stronger than their actual characters, including master xehanort, while he's fighting alone, then nobody on this list (except big unknowns like true power of yen sid, MoM, etc.) should be able to touch sora. The scene in the realm of darkness where riku can't beat demon tower or aqua and sora has to come in and bail his ass out is pretty strong evidence that sora is stronger than riku at this point, and there really isn't any substantial evidence to the contrary.
When making the bracket, I definitely considered Yozora canon. The Limit Cut stuff is more ambiguous to me, but I did consider those fights in determining a few things (ex. How devastating the DMs are)
Nomura himself said in an interview that the data fights are canonically how strong the organization members are, so at that point the question would be if Cid made Data-Sora stronger than real Sora
Riku’s thing is that at this point, he’s immune to Darkness. He and Sora... that really would be an interesting matchup. Given that Sora doesn’t tend to use darkness outside of Anti/Rage form, that ability wouldn’t really effect their battle unless he entered that form. Sora’s had more practice overall, with a lot more hands-on training, while Riku has had some guidance from a keyblade master (Mickey). I think it could go either way if they went head to head, but with all of Sora’s formchanges, summons, the hecking attractions- he could park a ship on Riku’s head- and other protagonist powers, he might have an advantage. Riku is strong, yes. But can he match up to the sheer amount of crazy stuff Sora can pull off, and has pulled off? The argument now is “what about Riku’s protagonist powers?” He can do quite a few things that Sora can’t, yes. Dark magic, dream eater abilities, and likely also greater physical strength. He and Sora are tricky to pit against one another for this very reason- they’re both so strong! Riku has access to abilities like dark barrier and double flight in Dream Drop Distance, and I am pretty sure he retains them, and while I believe Sora doesn’t have access to some of those abilities in his standard form, he can use barrier in some of his formchanges, as well as gaining doubleflight- if I remember correctly- at some point during KH3. Overall, Sora is ridiculously OP, and so is Riku. I am now going to consult with the Discord Counsel and see what they have to say on the matter, and will add on to this following that!
man this is undeniable proof that id watch most things u make pat like you could read the telephone book in a 6h vid and id watch it wile doing other stuff
My thoughts on Master Xehanort vs Terra: Terranort on paper is better, but he’s intellectually inferior. I think that he is clearly pretty unhinged compared to calm and rational Master Xehanort. I think that being a fusion of two people makes him unstable, so while technically he could do anything xehanort can, he isn’t in the right place mentally to be as effective. Example: terranort toying with Aqua and Ven in the graveyard. If it was Master X, he would have said a poetic one liner, then just killed them. But terranort gloated around and gave Terra a chance to awaken. That sort of immaturity would be his downfall in that matchup.
I think it’s also sort of implied that even though Xehanort takes over Terra, not all of his abilities transfer over. In every Terranort battle he mostly uses abilities that Terra knew, more effectively than Terra since of course Master Xehanort is more knowledgeable, but we never see Terranort like raise the earth beneath him or anything like that and likewise Xehanort doesn’t really have any of Terranort’s movepool (as far as we’ve seen). I think the same can probably be said about Luxu after taking over Braig’s body, he’s probably not as strong as he once was.
I could see it going either way. I'd give the edge to Terranort vs Master Xehanort baseline both, Terranort with the Guardian solidly wins, but Master Xehanort with the X-Blade beats Terranort even with the Guardian. I'd argue that Terranort beats basically everyone when it comes to pure combat ability (Terra's physical strength/capabilities with Xehanort's experience/knowledge, Darkness mastery, and magic is absurd), but he has significant issues with certain matchups if Terra acts up and restarts the battle of wills (mainly Aqua and Ven, but I could see Roxas, Sora, or maybe even Xion reaching Tera to a lesser extent and pulling up an upset as a result).
This was an amazing video. If nothing else, it helped me realize that at some point more than halfway through KH3, offscreen, Terranort and Ansem SOD had to hash out who got the Guardian during the Keyblade War. There's a really good chance Terranort pulled rank on Ansem in the process, too. Quite a thought. Also, oh my gosh, Riku and Yozora are literally identical aside from the eyes. They're just rendered in KH and Fabula Nova Crystallis art styles. I never put that together.
I kind of feel like Mickey is canonically stronger than Sora, but in general I still love the amount of thought that went into this! But in general some of these were really tough calls. Good job!
I’ll defend Yozora here. I whole heartedly think Yozora beats Riku. Sora has saved and beaten Riku multiple times. And to take it into account that Riku was struggling to deal with Dark Aqua until Sora came in to not only help him beat the demon tide but go fight Dark Aqua as well. Not to mention that Sora has fought and comically beaten Sephiroth twice, fought against 1000 heartless, then handle Finsl Fantasy characters. Scaling that to what Riku has done, their strength and speed stats are farther apart. In the Yozora fight, his attacks art faster then any of Riku’s (even when he’s playable) His kit is dangerous. Being able to shorten your hp, steal hp and items, create a virtual yet physical holigraogic dome, summon clones and enemies of his world and steal. Your. Keyblade. Just feel like Yozora takes the cake completely
Also i’m still extremely unconvinced of Zeus’s power in Kingdom Hearts, as we have quite literally seen him do nothing, vs Larxene who we know for a fact is an extremely skilled, fast, and deadly fighter. Zeus was even taken out by the 3 titans that we went on to beat in KH3 at like level 8 or something lower.
Uuuuuh... deep cut Kingdom Hearts knowledge, Marluxia and Maleficent did kind of fight before... well, Lauriam, Marly's somebody did, back when he was a good boy and had a keyblade. And Maleficent actually beat him. Although, she had help in the form of one of the 13 original super powerful darknesses... we don't know if it actually helped the sorceress fight, though, the battle was off screen. So who knows! It's not like it actually matters :P thanks for the videos, Pat! Love putting them in the background while I'm doing my chores!
About the Zeus and titan stuff, in Greek mythology, if I’m not mistaken, titans came before gods and when Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades were born, and a whole bunch of stuff with some daddy issues, they ended up defeating all of the titan and kept the trapped forever
My argument is for Sora and this is my own head cannon reasoning why. I think sora is actually way more powerful than anything we have seen him be because he was never officially given a keyblade by anyone. He has been holding on to his power over the keyblade by sheer force of will as shown by taking it back from riku in kh1. The first keyblade that was given to him was at the end oh kh3 by xehanort and it was the xblade. I think now without being held back by not having to will his power over his weapon he can put his full power into his fighting.
Terra Nort deserved to go to the Final 4. Going off cutscenes alone the dude has pretty much taken EVERYTHING from some of the most powerful characters like it's nothing.
There are roughly 10 titles in total (including the games and movies). After those you’ll know what’s up. Everything is available in one putchase (KH All-in-one Package [PS4])
Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories 358/2 Days Kingdom Hearts II Birth By Sleep Re:Coded 0.2 A Fragmentary Passage Dream Drop Distance Back Cover Kingdom Hearts III Melody of Memories Dark Road
There is so much Riku cap in this video bro. Especially considering that Sora draws power "from his bonds", or whatever, dimensions away from his friends. Donald and Goofy not being bodily present for the fight doesnt mean that Sora can't benefit from their bond, thats what all the keychains on Sora's keyblade are anyways right. I would agree if something like Sora's time travel in Re:Mind was brought up as a feat. Sora wouldnt have been able to do it without Kairi and Namine, but Sora didn't have any issues with his bonds until he started to doubt himself. Riku is also slapped hard against the Demon Tower and Aqua fights, and Sora won when he fought the Aqua battle in Re:Mind, so it wasn't just him cleaning up after Riku.
@@apathy2454 My reasoning for Sora is that he just has more experience and arguably is better at magic, in terms of physical prowess Riku outshines Sora, but yiu also have to remember Sora is capable of duel weilding Keyblades and has his forms natively now, he in base doesn't match Riku but Riku only has darkness power that he is afraid of using according to ddd agaisnt Sora and his many forms
Come on, Sora has beaten Riku three times in KH1! That last time was a one on one match where Riku used all the Darkness Ansem gave him. Sora fought an exact replica of Riku four times in Castle Oblivion. And Sora had to save Riku and Mickey from Anti-Aqua and managed to get through to her where Riku didn't. While Riku passed the Mark of Mastery where Sora failed, Sora only failed because he got captured by the Organization. There was never any duel between Sora and Riku in the Mark of Mastery. If there was, Sora would have beaten Riku like he always did.
I hate to ruin a perfectly good bit, but Vanitas was trained by the main villain of the entire first Saga for 10 years. Geez Pat look at you forgetting important lore from the best Kingdom Hearts game lol I must amend my prior statement. It has been brought to my attention by some very reliable sources(Pat and Kiwi) that I may have exaggerated the timeline and it was actually closer to 3-5 years, to which I say... Ya got me. I bow my head in shame!
16:39 I disagree on this matchup. I tend to hold the cutscenes as equal to the gameplay. Riku only wins against Lexaeus because Ansem bails him out and possesses him at the last second. Riku Replica does not have a benefactor/dark-guardian-angel lording over him like the real Riku does, so he would probably lose after putting up a decent fight. There's also another cutscene to consider, where Riku Replica gets smacked around pretty easily by Larxene when he tries to avoid having his memories rewritten by Namine. So that weakens my opinion of his fighting abilities a bit more. Also ALSO, even if I did follow the game logic as the most definitive measure of battle prowess, then remember that real Riku beats Riku Replica every time they meet as well as in the very end, proving they are not equal in strength. So if Real Riku beats Riku Replica, then how can Riku Replica beat Lexaeus...who beat real Riku prior to getting help from Ansem? I like Riku Replica, but I'm of the opinion he would lose against Lexaeus.
In the GBA version of chain of Memories Riku beat Lexeaus and Lexeaus himself admits defeat. But then he tries to pull Riku in the darkness with his last strengh. Then Mickey needed to save Riku from Ansem but Ansem did not interfered in the battle with Lexeaus. But I guess Re Chain of Memorie is the canon one right? Also Riku Replica did grew stronger after killing Zexion and so did Riku after accepting the darkness. So Riku Replica defeating Lexeaus seems plausible.
@@sofaris576 Granted, that is a good point to bring up. I haven't played the GBA version for about fifteen years and clearly there's no way I could have remembered that particular detail. But keep in mind that while people can hold whichever version they want as canon---ultimately, Square Enix chose to change it along with many other scenes to better fit their creative vision. Also, I acknowledge that Riku Replica becomes stronger after absorbing Zexion's remaining power, but that only occurs _after_ the battle with Lexaeus. He's already defeated at that point and so the increase in Riku Replica's power is irrelevant to him. I'm concerned with both Rikus' level of strength during the timeframe of Lexaeus' battle while he was still around---and at that time, Riku Replica hadn't yet absorbed Zexion's power and was still weaker than the real Riku. We then retread my previous point where Lexaeus knocks the real Riku out despite his injuries, resulting in a technical victory for Lexaeus. Riku Replica, having already lost to the real Riku up until that point (and every point after), would not have even made it that far. I say all of this because I'm inclined to favor the PS2 version (to bring things back on topic). Its sheer level of additional content and graphical sophistication satisfied many people's expectation of quality on par with that of its sibling games. That cosmetic assessment aside however, you can still value the GBA version as canon, but there are many reasons to consider the PS2 version's as well.
I though in these versus debates its common to compare the characters at there strongest known until now. Saying Lexaeus is stronger in that time frame snd thats why he wins the match up is like saying Radditz beats Goku becuse at one point in time he was stronger even though now Goku is kinda a god. I mean tecknicaly your right but its s wired way to go about a versus debate. Why should we not take Riku Replica getting stronger in to Account just becuse Lexseus is dead at this point? All of these Match ups are what if scenarios anyway.
@@sofaris576 The reason I localize my argument in the whole Chain of Memories era is because that's precisely when both characters did any fighting in the series at all. It's when they were both alive to even be comparable in the first place. You want me to evaluate Riku Replica's strength now? _He's been DEAD this whole time!_ His power peaked and ended in CoM and hasn't gone up one lick. I know he started living on inside the real Riku just before the events of KH3 as like a ghost or something, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as "getting stronger". Meanwhile, Lexaeus was recompleted and came back to life as Aeleus. So even if I did apply the current era argument now, Aeleus is now back on track getting stronger again. Riku Replica however, willingly gave up his chance at returning to life for Namine to be brought back. So Square Enix has twisted my arm and forced me to sample my data based only on what the series has given me.
@@AtomicF0x Riku Replica did get stronger in chain of memory after Lexaeus death. I did not say anything about after chain of memories. If I not misunderstood you, you disregarded Riku Replica getting stronger becuse it happend after Lexaeus death. Although its true that we dont know how much stronger he became. He did not acomplish anything with his new power. He just got defeated by Riku. I am not saying Riku Replica is defently stronger then Lexaeus but I still think its possebile.
It’s funny to hear “titans aren’t gods, they’re just big” - in the Disney movie, that’s pretty much true, they are mostly just big monsters. But in Greek myth, the titans weren’t actually necessarily that large, but they were actually stronger than the gods - namely, the gods (including Zeus and hades) are all children of the titans.
Respecting that this was done primarely for shits and giggles I still think this whole video would've profited greatly if at least some rules were implemented, mostly regarding consistency. Specifically the question: what do we count for power scaling? Story? Cutscenes? Gameplay? All of them? Because depending how you go about it one would need to change many parts of the bracket. For example if we were to go with Gameplay as the biggest factor then everyone with Stop (and it's upgrades) would move up several spots (since, well, being immobilized is pretty bad). Also someone like Seph would be rivaling other Seed 1s, given that he, at best, only needs two hits to kill every enemy via Heartless Angels. In the same vain the argument for Yozora basically would never change. He can steal your shit, how can you really defend against that (i.e: if he can use Xions stuff against her and come out on top than I really do not see how Riku can turn the tides there). The only characters that you would need to talk way more about would be every playable character because of the concept of level ups, skills and especially item usage. The both of you showed that dilemma with Master Xehanort vs. Terranort. Storywise it would make sense to put Terranort above Master since, well, he keeps everything great about himself just with the bonus of a better body. But gameplay-wise I think most would agree that Master just shts on Terranort all the time. So more specifications regarding the weighting of sources would have maybe helped out. Also I would auto-exclude characters which haven't shown anything, be it via gameplay or story/cutscene, which is mostly directed at MoM and Luxu. Too hard to really judge which easily leads to building them bigger with your expectations and wishes.
By the way, to me, the KH2 Genie Jafar fight plus him taking blizzard damage in KH1 are definitive proof genies aren’t invincible and can probably even be killed. I’m pretty sure the only reason the keyblade fully bounced off of The actual Genie in KH1 is because Sora just wasn’t aiming for him, but it wouldn’t be outlandish to say that one ultra powerful magic weapon at least has a pretty damn good chance at another powerful magic being.
I completely agree that Riku beats Sora. Up to the end of KH2 Sora wins hands down, but Riku is the GOAT during 3D and then gets banished to the Realm of Darkness for most of 3 because Namura knows he's stronger than Sora and didn't know how to handle it lol. Sora having final form back would be tough, but not unbeatable. It DOES have a time limit. Also I think i'd do a few matchups differently. For instance I think the case could be made that Terra was holding back Terranort during the story, and maybe if that restriction wasn't there then he would indeed be stronger than geriatric nort. But ultimately everyone gets bodied by Sora and Riku anyway so I think it doesn't matter too much. I love this vid haha, especially because the KH series is so wonky and you can make so many cases for people who shouldn't otherwise have them. Like how do you even rank the FF characters anyways? They are all god-level in their games, but don't do ass in KH. Who knows
sora without his friends? l mean, he was able to fight xemnas, roxas, riku two times in kh1, ansem in kh1, the literal heartless army in 2, and chased after what was essentially the grim reaper and fought him off to SAVE RIKU himself. oh, and topping Yozora. l think solo Sora is a bit underestimated
Some of those examples are tricky, especially the Yozora one, where I believe Yozora actually won just going off of the structure of the bad ending and the novel itself which has Yozora winning. Solo Sora is no doubt strong, but on the likes of characters such as Terra and Xehanort? No way.
@@Zoecoon in melody of memories tho, Sora saves Kairi, which he couldn't do if he was frozen. Plus, the game files calls the Yozora ending "fake" and the Sora ending "Real", and the luxord reveal being in a noncanon ending would be odd.
@@25shadow11 The Novel has Sora being beaten and Luxord being revealed likewise, and I don't see why it go along with that version unless it was the ideal ending, I always chopped the "Real" ending up to it being the ending you get by beating the boss which was intended for you to get through the next section of the game, which in that sense, it is the Real ending due to you completing that section. Never played Melody of Memories so I did not know that. Also, do we know when the Yozora fight took place? Does Sora reference it in Melody of Memory?
@@Zoecoon what is this "novel" you are speaking off? And in the files of KH3, the Sora winning ending is called "True ending". And At the end of MoM, Kairi is facing an apparition of Xehanort, but Sora controls her and saves the day, Xehanort remarking on how Soras voice can't reach them, meaning he's "outside of reality" in a fictional world(Quadratum, as the nameless star reveals the name of the world Sora is in, cause she remembers it when Riku mentions "city full of skyscrapers). So, it stands to reason that Sora rescued Kairi, it took place sometime after his battle with Yozora, which he won, then Riku uses the nameless star and Fairy godmother to reach Quadratum
@@25shadow11 I'll link you to the reddit post, or I can send you a direct screenshot of the page. If you want the screenshot add me on IG:tinyynick, and yes, I know its called the "True" ending, I just find it jarring for the novel implement Sora losing (from the bad ending) and also Luxord as the driver (from the good ending) almost as if its trying to remedy the confusion on the games part.
In my opinion, it comes down to either Sora or Master Xehanort. In Kingdom Hearts III, Master Xehanort's journal entry describes him as "the most powerful Keyblade Master of them all," and King Mickey tells Aqua and Riku, "I'll need both of your help if we're gonna push Xehanort out of this world," which shows that King Mickey thought that three Keyblade Masters were needed to defeat Xehanort (although I don't know how much we can trust what King Mickey says). Plus, as Terranort, he single-handedly defeats all of the guardians of light. Sora, on the other hand, was able to defeat Master Xehanort when he had the X-Blade and controlled Kingdom Hearts. True, Sora needed Donald and Goofy's help to deliver the final blow to Master Xehanort in the main story, but Sora's Recreated Data defeats Master Xehanort's Recreated Data all by himself in the Limitcut Episode. That data of Master Xehanort was not only recreated from when he had the X-Blade and controlled Kingdom Hearts, but it was also more powerful than the real Master Xehanort, as Cid said, "I must be better at this than I thought 'cause their data, it's so powerful, I can't access any of it." Additionally, what makes Sora so powerful is his connection to his friends. When Sora delivers his "my friends are my power" speech in Dream Drop Distance, Xigbar, aka Luxu, is literally shaking in his boots. In the end, I think Sora wins, but I think a case can be made for Master Xehanort.
This isn't gonna age well if we find out that Master of Masters is just a dude without any real combat powers. Still, we have to assume he has something
On the lore justification for Master Xehanort vs Terranort, I think MX was correct to think that possessing Terra would make him more powerful, but his plan only partially succeeded. Terra's resistance resulted in an amnesiac Terranort, who I believe was thereby robbed of much of his knowledge and skill, but still had tremendous raw power. I still take Terranort over MX, but a Terranort who fully possessed Terra and retained his knowledge would have annihilated Aqua in BBS and basically anyone on this bracket. In real canon it's a reasonably close matchup, but according to Master Xehanort's original hopes, it shouldn't have been.
A good comparison to make is between BBS terranort and KH3 terranort. In BBS terra was still resisting, whereas the other terranort seen in KH3 was completely taken over. Keep in mind KH3 terranort is technically an entire different character, since after xemnas and ansem were defeated they reformed back into terra and xehanort. The newly reformed terra was then properly norted, as opposed to the interrupted ritual seen in BBS. This would also explain why terranort bodied all the guardians of light in KH3 meanwhile he got beat by aqua in BBS. Essentially KH3 terranort > MX > BBS terranort
I'm 1000% sure that the MoM is supposed to be based on Jack from Agito XIII (which would explain why Yozora is Versus XIII Noctis) but that means 1. that he's gotta be a Demyx, and 2. he's probably extremely deadly with a blade. It's exciting to think about bc Jack is one of the strongest characters in DFFOO, meaning that he's one of the strongest Final Fantasy characters, period. (Definitely the /deadliest/ human character in his own canon, but absolutely indestructible in the timelines where he becomes a l'Cie.) I can't say for sure if Jack could best Sephiroth in a fight, but Cloud has canonically said that he thinks Jack is even more unpredictable than Sephiroth, so that's saying something. But yeah, if you wanna experience God Mode Demyx, play Type-0. He can 1HKO 90% of the enemies in the game with the basic attack from his default katana. It's just funny because he has That personality the whole time. With that said, Sora would beat MoM because Sora would talk to him and make him feel bad. That's how you beat Jack. You make him feel his own feelings.
So my opinion on the master nort vs Terra nort debate is master nort is already lv 99 and has the oversized mp bar to prove it, but when he takes over Terra he's putting his heart into a body that's much closer to level 25-30. So he's not able to use some of his OP abilities in that body yet. His physical traits are all increased because younger body with better stamina and strength but MUCH less magic proficiency, which seems to have been nort's go to. So in the moment master nort is stronger, but if nort didnt separate himself into a heartless and nobody he would have became much stronger long term
I honestly agree with almost everything on this bracket. Except with the Master Nort vs Tearra Nort bit. Sure the main goal of Xehanort was just to live to see the end of the keyblade war but when he says "Out with the old brittle vessel, in with the stronger younger new one." The same mind in a younger vessel could no doubt overpower the older one. But almost every fight after that bracket would end up exactly the same.
Terranort has an edge over Master Xehanort, Terranort with Guardian solidly wins, but Master Xehanort with the X-Blade probably beats Terranort, Guardian or no. Take away the X-Blade though and I think Terranort is the single strongest combatant in the series. He only ever loses in the entire series if Terra resists and restarts the battle of wills (which makes me think he loses to Aqua or Ven, and maybe Roxas/Sora/Xion depending on if their connection/resemblance to Ven is enough.)
This was a fun bracket and thought experiment. I can see Riku beating Sora, they kinda implied this with DDD. I feel like they are fairly close in terms of powers. I would probably say that Aqua could beat Master Nort. Aqua is kind of the eventuality that Xehanort couldn't really prepare for. There's the fact that Aqua would be more suspectible to darkness due to her time in RoD but I feel like a fully recovered Aqua would really be able to resist that more. The Back Cover/X characters along with Luxu and Yozora are all pretty unknown. For all we know they could clean up this entire bracket. So it'll be interesting to see whenever we get more from them fighting
The blatant Riku favoritism is wild. "The realm of darkness does something to you" sure, maybe its a debuff to others with minimal darkness resistance, but do you know who's IMMUNE to darkness? Riku. Sora meanwhile plunges headfirst into what had just recently made him comatose and sapped his powers, beats anti aqua for riku, and saves all three of them.
I’d still say Sora wins the Riku matchup in 3, we just haven’t seen what Riku is fully capable of at this point in time. Hopefully the Quadratum game changes that.
Regarding Riku vs Yozora, I think Riku wins even if Yozora steals Riku's Keyblade. More than half of the franchise Riku never used a Keyblade to win and was able to defeat much of the Organization in Castle Oblivion, even the Riku techniques in Chain of Memories are of a high level, capable of designing different types of weapon without needing a Keyblade
You should do a video on the difference in difficulty between a proud mode kingdom key only run and a proud mode lvl 1 run! I dont think one exists yet :p also maybe a 100% completion series because we really like your commentary and watching you play, plus I think it would be the most fun for you
To weigh into the Terranort / Master Xehanort discussion - the way I always interpreted the canon is that Terranort is absolutely the most powerful version of Xehanort, but he suffers from a sort of Achilles heel. Terranort can do anything Xehanort can do (which is why I think he leads the attack against the Seven Lights at the start of the Keyblade Graveyard, a fight that I will remind you results in all their deaths until Sora does his time travel nonsense). Additionally, if Terranort wasn't stronger wouldn't Master Xehanort want to use his own body to create a Heartless and Nobody? Why use Terra's body unless he knew it was the superior model. Furthermore, Terra's the only 13 Darkness that DOES NOT LOSE in his fight against Sora - he wins, straight up summons some chains and takes out Ventus, Aqua, and Sora. Like, he doesn't even seem winded (he doesn't NEED to use any of Master Xehanort's most powerful abilities, he's crushing it just having a fun time with some chains). He only loses because of the intervention of Terra - which leads to Terranort's weakness: Terra. Terranort has, from the very beginning of his existence, been hindered by Terra's Lingering Will and Heart - remember that Xehanort takes over Terra AFTER a long fight in the graveyard, Terra is clearly tired, and then he becomes Terranort - Lingering Will probably only wins the following fight because Terranort is physically exhausted and Lingering Will is just a suit of armor fueled by rage. Then, it's safe to assume Terranort loses to Aqua due to the struggle going on inside him between Terra and Xehanort - Terra would do everything he can to prevent Aqua's death. After that he has amnesia for most of his life - hindering any knowledge of his powers and abilities. In the end, Terranort is defeated by a surprise attack from Terra. My point is this: we have never seen a totally fair fight against Terranort. Everything I've seen leads me to believe that in a fair fight he obliterates anyone with ease - but Master Xehanort ultimately deemed Terranort a failure because he was incapable of purging Terra from him and that meant Terranort would always be fighting with a disadvantage. Xehanort probably thinks of Ansem and Xemnas as the superior versions because they were finally able to suppress Terra entirely. SO as far as Terranort v. Anyone in this Bracket the question would have to be is Terra helping Terranort or hindering him? If he's helping I think Terranort wins every fight in this bracket without so much as a sweat (except maybe Sora, Aqua, and Riku). If Terra is holding Terranort back I think Terranort loses to Master Xehanort.
I genuinely think that Sora would’ve have needed PHYSICAL help from Donald and Goofy if he hadn’t just been the MVP of 5 Group Fights with the strongest wielders of darkness, got hit in the back with a cheep shot by a floating Keyblade, fought 13 replicas all at the same time, and then had to do a 3 for 3 battle with Xehanort, where he had to win every one of them while Xehanort could change forms and weapons, in which he finally gained the X-Blade, and Sora matched him blow for blow until the very end where he needed just a little bit of help from non-Keyblade weilding pals to tank a direct hit from the X-Blade and then not only deflect the attack but overpower it. Sora definitely gains great strength of heart from having friends and knowing they love him, and that’s very important, but Goofy says it himself that “It’s not like we will be much help without Keyblades” which is BULLSHIT, those two need their own Keyblades- but besides the point- Sora was MVP the entire season and most of the playoffs where in the final quarter of the final game he needed a bit of support. PUT SOME RESPECT ON HIS NAME.
I really don't wanna be THAT person but there's some match ups I want to argue about. 1. Injured Mickey fought off and kinda beat all 13 Xheanort ghosts or whatever they were alone till Sora and Kairi arrived and freed everyone else (everyone else being all the other keyblade weilders who fought and lost to said Xheanorts). Luxu is strong of course but we don't know how much, we haven't seen anything from him yet. So there's really no arguement for not giving the win to Mickey and I'm glad you did. 2. You didn't take into account the latest feats proven by Ven in UX, where we see him manifesting his powers as a true light. Sephiroth kinda loses to true/pure lights by lore. ALSO KH1 Sora beat Sephiroth, and you don't really think Ven is at least around that level by KH3? I don't think Sephiroth has given it his all in KH of course he's just a side boss but there's still too much of a case to make for Ven to be one of the strongest 5 characters in the series now. 3. You guys are REALLY hyping Eraqus up, what did he even do? We could assume he was stronger than start BBS Terra but when they fought towards the end Eraqus was going all out and Terra was just defending himself and he still beat him pretty easily. Now this Terra should scale to KH2 Riku, and this Riku would not really be that much stronger than Final Form Marluxia from CoM. Add the Xheanort boost he got in KH3 and there's no way he loses to Eraqus imo. 4. I don't think Xion could beat Yozora, but I want to point out your main argument was he can steal her stuff, Xion can mimic other people's stuff so she would be the one taking the stuff from Yozora but regardless
Interesting thoughts about Eraqus. I can see a case for Marly beating him. From my perspective, he’s possibly the most technical Keyblade wielder we’ve seen. A lot of Keyblade-based attacks, blocking, charges. I feel like he’s frustratingly patient as an actual boss battle. I never found that fight to be particularly easy, but that kind of thing will change from player to player and strat to strat. There’s something intimidating about his style. Maybe it’s just Mark Hamill’s screaming. Nevertheless, I think his seeding is justified given his history and skill.
Call it my head canon but part of the reason why I feel like sully beat Vanitas is because he's literally a being of a emotion. Sully literally scared the shit out of him and unbalanced him.
I feel like Terranort doesn’t have light powers at his control like MX bc he had to make him embrace darkness to be available as a vessel. Terranort also has all his inner turmoil going on blocking his memory and control of MX’s full arsenal. Terranort was more proof of concept/giving himself more time to enact a master plan than it was to be physically stronger, and was honestly kind of a botched proof of concept at that.
Something that I don’t think was properly considered: when Sora was lost in “a city”, and was kinda sorta not existing a little bit, he still managed to pull some Jedi projection shit and absolutely body Xehanort in Melody of Memory. Like, he doesn’t even exist and he kicked that man’s ass.
People are always going to yell and bitch whenever power scaling is involved. They let their emotion outweigh the logic. Don’t apologize to those sheep.
Actually, the Gula vs Genie got me thinking for a while. Like, genie's main weakness is obviusly that he is in a lamp, and even thought he is no longer trapped, i feel like a keyblade master is the best oponent against him. Like, maybe she can lock him somewhere with the keyblade if she knows what she's doing, and i dont think genie can just wipe someone out of existence, so maybe one she has some time to try that. Or maybe im just overthinking
Sorry but Riku as the winner makes No sense. Where Riku and Mickey failed(dark realm), Sora conquered. With no help from them or Donald and Goofy. If Riku and Mickey couldn’t defeat a dark aqua, how could Riku Solo MX? You’ve over played Riku and underplayed Sora and MX. clearly Sora is the winner or solo loses against MX
59:57 Coming back to this, in my head, I think the reason old Xehanort takes Terra-nort is because although he's implanted himself into a younger body, Terra-nort still has to expend energy to contend with Terra's heart/Lingering Will, which nerfs him a bit
Ok, so, if Genie isn’t free then if you don’t have someone to control genie he can’t do shit, and you implied that Genie is still tied to the lamp, so unless Aladdin isn’t there Gula could just rub the lamp and make Genie fight for him
Disagreements (R1): Vanitas over Auron: Vanitas may be a jobber, but Auron had some trouble with a very weakened Herc. And Vanitas > early/mid-game BBS Ven >= Base BBS Maleficent. I do agree with Aced over Luxord, though it may be interesting if Luxord turns out to be someone super strong. He _was_ throwing his fight in KH3 at least. Gula over Genie: I think there's a chance here. We _do_ see Sora hurt Genie Jafar straight up in KH2. And scaling Genie~=Genie Jafar and Gula>=lategame, pre-Roxas KH2 Sora seem reasonable. Maleficent over Marluxia: I think Maleficent gets a real bad rap. One big problem is that we don't know how her Dragon form works. Seemed voluntary in BBS but wasn't (maybe?) in KH1. Still, she seemed to low-diff Lauriam (understandable, as Lauriam ~= early/mid BBS Ven and UX Maleficent >= BBS Maleficent). And if we give her Dragon form, I'll take her. In my opinion, KH1 pre-Roxas Sora >= CoM mind-fricked Sora, he had Donald and Goofy for Maleficent. _AND_ Maleficent got a buff in Coded. People forget that last one, but she was able to all of a sudden ignore the Cornerstone. So I think she takes Marluxia again. And hey, they both have plants but only she has the fire to burn them. Ira over Zexion: LOLOLOLOLOL. This take was so dumb it hurt. KH3 Kairi did ok vs. an amped Xemnas and against MX. And yet you have Ava > Kairi (fine) but Zexion > Ira?!?!? Come on!
Sora beats Master of Masters because Sora does whatever possible to win. Even if he has to go back in time and rewrite the timeline. Sora beat the whole Organization in KH3 still having stamina for the final battle. Everyone else like Aqua needed to take a break after one battle, meanwhile Sora defeats the whole organization then fights Xehanort. And Sora beat Yozora. MoM will be his biggest fight, but he can do it.
Bear in mind that I’m not married to any of these choices and I am far from claiming this is an objective and purely fact-based bracket. I’m also making these picks in the moment without prior contemplation/research and trying not to spend an eternity thinking about each and every one. The bracket is also littered with characters with unseen/unknown potential, and that’s half the fun. I try to be consistent, and then forget about the precedences that I set for myself lol.
TL;DR, don’t take it too seriously and feel free to present your own matchup outcomes without being rude :)
I’ll just say one thing cause I’ve already written too many comments... I think Sora beats MoM because despite being able to see the future, Sora can rewrite it.
Also, even if it would look dumb, MoM only having 1 eye would be very cool, because he is clearly based on the Norse god Odin, who gave an eye for knowledge of the world. Also, KH Dark Road’s Odin appears to only have 1 visible eye, and luxu lost an eye too. I think that’s a cool parallel to explore, even if it means he has freaky cats eyes
Check it: Aqua and M Nort never fought. But, i believe that Aqua no games no brain fog no messing around could beat Terra. Plus the Lingering Will which i would say is just as strong if not a little bit weaker than Terra, beat Terranort who is relative to M Nort *on paper*. Basically i think Aqua could beat M Nort up until he gets the xblade
Please do a video on BBS.
hey, commentary is making me feel like i missed a lot of lore involving the master of masters and the foretellers. i watched back cover, played through re:mind up to the point where you gain control of riku and get the data org battles (havent fought any of them yet tho), and watched all the melody of memory cutscenes. so what am i missing? from what im getting from your comentary, it sounds as if xigbar isnt the only org member that has been confirmed to be one of the foretellers. also you mentioned the master of masters being in some battle that i dont remember happening
Sora saved riku like 4 times. Rikus heart wasnt strong enough to go to the final world.
Mickey may beat Tarzan in a fight but on a meta level Tarzan outwitted the mouse and is free from his iron reign so I think he's the true winner
He escaped from the mouse like a North Korean refugee.
I’m going to miss Disney Tarzan but it’s probably for the best.
See you around, ape man.
Tarzan is like the final girl in a slasher movie, he managed to survive Michael Mouse Meyers
@@niktri8312 Tarzan best girl
@@nerdychocobo mind blowing holy shit
A small part of me wanted to see Clayton get in just to see how "a guy with a gun" stacks up.
Clayton vs Xigbar who would win
@@technobecian If we're just talking about gun skill, then Xigbar's weapons have more modes than Clayton's shotgun - like fast-shooting pistol mode and long-range sniper rifle mode. This is, of course, not accounting for Xigbar's space magic.
Too bad Gaston was never featured in the games his voice actor Richard Whites still alive
"Have you considered shooting him in the f*cking face?"
@@patdornoff9383 I always thought it was weird Gaston and Lefou weren't in the game.
Oh, hey. I made this bracket. In addition to what Patty said about not taking it all too seriously, here are a few things to keep in mind while watching the video:
1. Beast not being in this is a huge snub, no doubt about it. When I was piecing together the bracket, I really emphasized people who use swords, or some kind of weapon, so Beast slipped through the cracks. Odd that Simba and Scar made the cut though. In any case, Beast would be a 13 seed and get trashed by Xion.
2. I created this thinking that everyone would fight with every ability they have. So even though Sora is without Donald and Goofy for this bracket, he can still use his drive forms. Young Nort can reverse the battle. Master Nort can bust out the goat suit and change the battlefield if it’d help. You get the idea.
3. Keep in mind that determining the seed lines and the creation of a bracket is a subjective process in itself for the bracket maker. Think I really fucked something up? The good news is that your version of the bracket can reflect how you feel about each character’s strength. If I’m full of shit, you can correct me. That’s one of the fun things about a bracket that’ll never happen. It can bend to your tastes completely and you can’t be wrong.
It’s like that old goat says: Rule 11: It’s all just a game so let loose and have fun with it!
Genie and Zeus are VASTLY undervalued.
@@newyorknole2225 It’s possible. It’s tough to place mythical beings. One might assume that they’re invincible. That being said, Zeus gets bodies by the titans in KH3, and Genie-Jafar can be physically attacked in KH2. So it appears both a god and a genie can be harmed. I also didn’t want to have Disney characters be too high in the seed lines. Something about that feels weird to me. Regardless, I don’t begrudge anyone who thinks these characters can make a run in this bracket, and possible meet up in the championship. I just had to make the assumption that most people would not make that leap.
@@innerlightproductions4987 I feel a better way to go about this is to take into consideration the characters fighting in field advantage for both of them and then thinking of how much of a fight the other could put up in that same field and then vice versa. So, like for Vanitas, the keyblade graveyard would be where has the advantage because he’s clearly familiar with the landscape and quite capable of just blitzing his opponents by riding a storm of dead keyblades. With Sora vs MoM... Why is MoM on the list? I feel he should’ve been excluded for lack of info and replaced with someone like Beast who’s been in 2 games and has some decent showings of his strength rather than a relatively unknown character. Or maybe Auron, or Zack, or even the player character of Union Cross.
I don't know how much of Greek mythology Disney decided to change. Hercules did end up being Hera's child there…
I wouldn't sleep on the Titans being able to beat Zeus. In Disney are they just monsters or are they still gods themselves?
If Zeus got tag teamed by gods from the generation before his own, assuming Titans→Olympians, that's not a low showing for him imo.
If they're 'just' monsters, I have a hard time seeing anyone take them while they're not multitasking and locking Zeus down. Like how do they stack up to Chernabog? If they're each equivalent, that's quite a pickle.
very late reply, but I was wondering: are we considering temporary powers? e.g. Xemnas being infused with KH, Old Man Xehanort using the X-Blade, Marluxia using his final battle form from CoM? I know one of the more odd brackets was Old Man Xehanort vs. Terranort, but when you consider that Xehanort has wielded the X-Blade and Terranort doesn't it makes a lot more sense to put him ahead, even if Terranort is in theory "a better body".
this is normally why I prefer in-game feats only when comparing characters, but given Disney characters and all the foretellers, that isn't as easy to do here.
I unironically really appreciate the level of thought that went into putting the bracket together.
agreed
Jesus, the good healer loves you my friend
@@joshua2400 :) thank you
This list is lacking Woody from Toy Story.
He once murdered a man with words.
Woody wasn't in the list because he would have been way too OP
He’s too powerful
Riku, as the largest Kingdom Heart, would simply eat the others
Now I need a futurama world so lrrrr can cannonicly say this.
"No one can defeat Riku" is the "No one can deflect the emerald splash" of KH
Except several characters can and have defeated Riku
@@insertnamehere2746 that’s the joke. “No one can deflect the emerald splash” is repeatedly proven wrong in jojo.
Or "No one can use Vegeta's technique!"
@@ventusray6892 I like "The legendary Super Saiyan!" going to "It's a super saiyan bargain sale…"
@@Chance57 "You're not dealing with the average saiyan anymore..."
“What does Riku win?” “All his friends are dead” I fucking LOST IT 😂
The idea of Sora bludgeoning Michael Mouse to death with the handle of the keyblade is so cathartic.
it would be hilarious if MoM was a con-man with absolutely no powers at all
I think jokes aside, that might actually be an interesting angle for them to take with MoM. We've had a main villain with enormous powers and skills. It would be cool to have one that relies entirely on manipulating people more powerful but less intelligent than him to get what he wants.
@@MBRSimsThat would be cool to be honest. In the final battle he would summon the strongest threat we ever saw and once this is done we have a battle with MOM, there we just smack him with a single combo while he tries to bargain with us. Kinda like the final boss in demons souls who is just laying there until we put him out of his misery.
When I first saw the bottom left bracket I thought MoM referred to Sora's mom. Is Sora's mom secretly the most powerful character in the KH universe?
I was trying to figure out how the game Melody of Memory can canonically fight.
@@timdavis6567 hahaha
It would have been nice for the end of KH3 to involve Sora and friends (old and new) pleasantly overwhelming his mom the night he returns for dinner.
Nomura probably reconsidered because that would be too much like where the wild things are.
Mom = MoM confirmed
Sora dinner ready! Sora? Sora? Snaaaaaaakkkkkkeeeeeeeee!?!
Also, it kills me every time you say “Michael Mouse”
I am very disappointed you did not add Pluto to this list. From what I can gather, Pluto is deadass the most powerful character in Kingdom Hearts. For starters, in the KH1 Ultimania, Nomura has stated that Pluto traveled to many different worlds that we did not visit. But how? We know he met up with The King in Traverse Town, but after that, the next we see him is going through a Dark Corridor. Mickey could not have used that Dark Corridor because Mickey does not have that power. And that Dark Corridor is only one, not many, in which we know Pluto has traveled to. He has no Gummi Ship to do so, so how else did he do it? And speaking of Dark Corridors, he can travel not only through them, but the Lanes Between with absolutely no issue as we see him do in Kingdom Hearts II, in which we know unless you are a Princess of Heart or shielded by a Black Coat, you literally become corrupted or get destroyed (I don't remember) and we see Pluto succumb to neither of these things. This, on top of many reasons, I feel should be addressed. Was it because you knew Pluto would be too powerful and could not compete with anybody else? Or was it because you overlooked the sheer power of this dog? I await a very detailed and well put together response, Pat.
Very good question. Maybe Pluto is a being of light, since he is unaffected by darkness(as far as we have seen.)
Pluto is the Master of Masters confirmed
Terranort was severely underestimated. He blitzed Ventus and Lea and was gonna keep the streak going until Donald killed himself to stop him, using the strongest version of Flare ever used in a Square property. He was gonna kill Ven, Aqua and Sora singlehandedly in a 1v3 until Terra intervened. In terms of raw power, he is definitely stronger than Master Xehanort (assuming he isn't using the X-blade). In a fair fight, he's only ever had trouble with Lingering Will.
In bbs he did lose to lingering will and aqua, but in kh3 he basically seemed unstoppable
Not to downplay the one time they let a Disney character do something objectively kickass, but that is far from the strongest flare in a Square property simply because all the Bahamuts exist. It is probably the strongest actual spell in KH canon though
@@TheWonkster Wrong. Donald used Zettaflare. Zettaflare was used by bahamuth in FF14 to destroy the world. Donald is on par with bahamuths in terms of strongest flare.
@@CaptainStraya Late, but Re:Mind did have him still have trouble against Lingering Will although Sora did interrupt that fight if I remember correctly.
Plus, I'd say losing to Aqua was at least partially due to losing his memory plus the internal struggle of Xehanort v Terra. KH3 has a mostly realised Terranort, although we could assume the internal struggle continues
@@CaptainStraya late af, but Terranort didn’t lose to aqua, he lost to himself, throughout the fight you see that the only reason aqua even stood a chance was due to the internal conflict of xehanort vs terra and we even get to see Terra helping aqua by taking over here and there. To make matters worse when none of this is happening she gets severely perception blitzed by him when he one shots Ventus in kingdom hearts 3. To be completely honest I haven’t seen a good aqua feat at all whatsoever, other than consistently getting toyed around by Vanitas who held back on his power until the keyblade graveyard, the only character I’ve seen aqua beat herself without anything helping her was Braig
really loved seeing the master of masters fighting peter pan
You mean putting peter pan in his place lol
Decent list but I feel like the MoM kind of ruins it, since it's just entirely speculation. We have no reason to believe he's physically strong. I mean if I had to bet for when we eventually see what he can do I think he will be deceptively strong but for the sake of this bracket he takes wins he has no place taking. If we're being strict on what the gods, genie and cloud can do I think we should also be strict on the MoM who thus far has only been shown to be a strategist. If he was replaced with Beast it probably would have made for a more fair and interesting bracket imo but hey it's fun to speculate on what the MoM can do I get it.
Bracket maker here. Regarding MoM, he was tough to place. I defaulted to giving him a 1 seed because, as the OG Keyblade wielder we see in the series and the direct mentor to other characters we’ve seen who kick ass (Aced and Invi specifically), I think it’s safe to assume that he can hold his own. If one were to fill out the bracket and think he’s unproven, which is a fine take, then they should probably have him lose to Peter Pan, or Genie for sure. Patty seemed pretty comfortable speculating what MoM can do. Others, perhaps appropriately, might not want to assume what he can do when filling out the bracket.
@@innerlightproductions4987 completely understandable, I personally wouldn't but I can see why others might.
The most important thing is we know he has constant visions of the future from his keyblade. If he has said keyblade in the fight, you will never touch him, because he knows what you're doing before you do. It's an easy sweep to the top with that alone imo.
Gameplay is the mechanism for the player themselves to advance the story but cutscenes are the only "canon" power level as far as I'm concerned. Gameplay can also vary based on difficulty and build.
I mostly agree, but I think there are exceptions to that rule. Like lingering will, since you only know about most of his powers thanks to gameplay (at least before KH3)
Nah MoM's book ends with a blue man yelling its showtime.
As one of the mentioned 7 sports fans watching this, i really enjoyed the explanations of march madness to pat.
I don't think Master of Masters should have been included, no qualms otherwise.
Yeah he felt too “vaguely powerful”
From what we've seen he's mainly been extremely knowledgeable. I agree with him beating Genie since there's a high chance he'd know how to trap a Genie, but less sure with Sephiroth
To be fair, he's called the master of masters for a reason, he trained the foretellers and Luxu, who are incredibly powerful in their own right. It's hard to scale that, but I think he'd have to at least be on par with Yen Sid
@rangedweevil6150 Consider it like this, look at how teaser/secret boss characters been treated before
Lingering Will
Xemnas
Young Xehanort
Xehanort in 2FM cinematic
Yozura
Even Roxas in KH1 secret ending
We all immediately see how they fight or thier main weapons, Masters is the sole exception and he has appeared in about 4 games now where we still don't know his abilities. I think it's on purpose where he'll either not fight or have something so unique the franchise hasn't done before. It'll be so disappointing if he just pulled out a keyblade like everyone else.
Scar vs Tarzan is something I wish we could have seen lol
Somewhere in the multiverse there’s a movie where Scar, Tarzan, Simba, Clayton, Gaston, Sabor and The Beast are all in the same movie
@@nickp3949 called Kingdom Hearts
@@TheChckster But they’re not actually together, they’re in their own worlds. Not the same thing.
@@nickp3949 all in the same movie. not world
MoM is going to end up as a total joke boss when kh5 comes out in 24 years
I really don't see how Riku beats Sora. We've seen Sora defeat a darkness-charged up Riku, Sora has a wide range of abilities with his keyblade that Riku doesn't, Sora is the one that gets sent in for the final battle while Riku is just another one of the guardians of light that creates the portal, and Riku struggles with a few heartless in the RoD. Who's the strongest enemy Riku has even defeated? Base Ansem SoD?
Granted he was far from defeated, but I feel the fact that Riku was able to hold his own against Master Xehanort possessing a younger and more able body (Young Xehanort) who had the ability to stop and rewind time deserves a mention because that's fairly impressive lmao
Sora would still realistically win though
also Roxas beat Riku (before Riku used Ansems powers), and Sora can beat Roxas so it has to be Sora the winner right?
@@phoenixkh93 Riku has improved dramatically post darkness era, c’mon
@@megamanx1291 yeah but so has Sora, mores I would say. I mean Sora can summon Disney rides to do his bidding haha
@@phoenixkh93 Technically speaking Roxas scales to Sora, and while they were both at half strength(because Roxas's "full power" is half of Sora's own power), he holds the advantage for the entire fight they had and would have won if he knew Sora could call back his Key-Blade.
"Mickey holds Riku back"
"Me looking at the scene where Riku was trapped by a Demon Tower, and Mickey had to free him."
Yeah, totally held him back there.
Right. Seem like they had some favoritism for tiki as a character, rather than facing the facts that Sora is clearly stronger than him.
@@theamazingb2448 Not to mention a hate boner for Mickey that could very well have clouded their judgement. I mean, COULD Sora beat Mickey? With plot armor, sure he could. But otherwise I really don't see Sora beating someone with that many more years of training and experience than him. I just don't.
@@renegadeguardian Final form wipes Michael from existence lmao
@@bubblebuddy6920 Okay, but Drive Forms weren't allowed in these match ups. So your point is invalid. Also MICKEY CAN FREEZE TIME for a surprisingly long time. That alone makes him completely busted and untouchable.
@@renegadeguardian he literally said in the video he made the list with drive forms allowed
Titans in the mythology were the first sons of Uranus, god of the universe, and Gaia, goddess of the earth, who were incredibly strong, the wars between the gods and the Titans remade the earth, with the gods squeaking out a tight victory so they’re nothing to be scoffed at
what's really laughable is hermes getting bodied by pain and panic two characters that didn't even exist in greek mythology but I digress we could also think about it this way it's said in the movie herc has to drink every last drop of the mortality potion to become fully mortal meaning he must consume 100 percent of it he does drink all of it except a single drop which I would say is equivalent to a single percent meaning herc has 1 percent of zeuses strength so if herc can beat demyx by there own logic then zeus should beat xenhanort since I doubt demyx only has 1 percent of his strength like yeah he is stronger than demyx but clearly not by that much
I feel like we are forgetting that Sora had fought in every fight at the end of kh3, a battle that took a whole day and he helped everybody in their fight so by the time Sora fought Xehanort he was likely tired and beat while Xehanort was still fresh
And Xehanort has the X blade. But sure, Riku beats him. Totally.
@@andrewdevita629 Riku fans lmao
@@andrewdevita629 not to mention sora did the whole thing twice (arguably 3 times) and literally rewrote destiny
22:00 in the KH 358/2 manga Herc destroys Demyx in a match, even after Demyx participates in doping
"People are screaming right now. Because it's Xion. It's a brand" Amazing
Fantastic video guys - I had a really tough day of work yesterday and watched the first half last night. I laughed out loud several times! I feel like there are a lot a KH channels which are just so *serious*. Your videos are so creative and capture the sense of fun I felt playing the games as a child. KH was my all time favourite series growing up and I had no one to talk to about it, so this channel is definitely one of my happy places.
"You don't got Mufasa on the right side do you?"
"I DO-- *30 SECOND AD BREAK.......*
...... NOT"
Kingdom Hearts power scaling
Bro Terranort against anyone without plot armor, he claps easily.
They couldn't even justify Sora beating him even with plot armor. That's why Sora lost to him in Remind
Thats why I was genuinely surprised that he didn’t even make it to the final 8. You got to remember that Aqua only beat him in the prime of him just being beaten by Lingering Will AND Terra’s consciousness fight back Xehanort back at the same time. That base KH3 scene in the Keyblade Graveyard where he bodies everyone just solidifies just how strong he was. Even if Donald took him out with Zettaflare, he took out the TRUE Dandelion Ventus and then completely bodied Axel within 2 seconds, among some of the most powerful people in the series. It’s literally Xehanort in a Healthy body and ALL the knowledge he has while he also has full control over Terra’s Heartless. I mean cmon, Terranort was so strong that his Heartless and Nobody are considered to be some of the most strongest villians in KH. For what its worth, you can argue that Terra technically is the strongest because of that and that he is such a strong host and with such a strong heart that the Guardian and Xemnas are comparable to Terra since it’s technically his Heartless and Nobody.
Btw, Zettaflare is the most OP VERSION of flare ever to be cast (they follow metric unit prefixes, Zetta is the the seventh and is 10^21. Teraflare in Final Fantasy 14 restarted the world, so Zettaflare was literal the only thing they could do to disintegrate this man)
@@zachtemoro2116 I should correct you that Terra-Xehanort was still active and able to snare his three opponents even after he was beaten in gameplay. It took a non-combat situation (Terra's heart rebelling) to "win the fight".
@@MrAuthor3DS oh I know, I didn’t include that because I find him one shoting Ven and Axel within a blink of an eye more impressive and the fact that they literally needed the HIGHEST level spell possible in order to take him out. Also even though Lingering Will was kinda cheap shotted in Re:Mind, technically he was losing before that happened and whether or not future Sora did come back in base KH3 to fight Terranort, its still a win for Terranort that LW died and future Sora was defeated. I have no argument I could come up with that Sora could win against Terranort, he is just too strong. Even when you knock him down he just gets right back up with the same strength he had a second ago
@@zachtemoro2116 There is some arguments, the 13 data battles are canon to the story and Sora's data was able to defeat Terranort's data, and if i remember, Nomura said that Future Sora was grabbed by the guardian because he was tired (he defenitly fought way more people than Terranort before that fight).
Auron to Vanitas in their fight: Why are you running? WHY ARE YOU RUNNING?!
I'm late asf but 😭💀💀💀 damn you win!
@@MissSimone02 No one's late if we're all having fun 😄
On Sora needing to be saved by Donald and Goofy during his Xehanort fight, we need to also consider that Sora had already participated in EVERY clash with the darknesses AND dived after his friends after the wave of darkness did...that, which ymx said had consequences. He had really gone through it that day. You could also argue that he was off his game due to watching Kairi get bodied. So I think in a fight where Sora and Xehanort are both fresh, Sora wouldn’t struggle.
Yikes, thats a hot take😅. I think Peak MX vs Peak Sora, Sora gets bodied.
When Aced sees himself paired with Luxord:
Aced: Why am I here? You tell me!
I've been saying ever since I finished KH3 for the first time that we NEED that solo Riku game. This could be their chance to go hard in the action game to appease that side of the fanbase (which I am on) before going back to Sora gameplay, hopefully having learned some new things to make the gameplay going forward even better.
*“Unbreakable Chains” starts playing in the background*
Me: *flashbacks of struggling forever to beat Vanitas from when I was young*
I think this really depends on whether you consider limitcut data fights and yozora as Canon. If sora beats all those people's data, which is stronger than their actual characters, including master xehanort, while he's fighting alone, then nobody on this list (except big unknowns like true power of yen sid, MoM, etc.) should be able to touch sora. The scene in the realm of darkness where riku can't beat demon tower or aqua and sora has to come in and bail his ass out is pretty strong evidence that sora is stronger than riku at this point, and there really isn't any substantial evidence to the contrary.
When making the bracket, I definitely considered Yozora canon. The Limit Cut stuff is more ambiguous to me, but I did consider those fights in determining a few things (ex. How devastating the DMs are)
Nomura himself said in an interview that the data fights are canonically how strong the organization members are, so at that point the question would be if Cid made Data-Sora stronger than real Sora
Mickey survived the microwave. He is not to be underestimated.
Riku’s thing is that at this point, he’s immune to Darkness. He and Sora... that really would be an interesting matchup. Given that Sora doesn’t tend to use darkness outside of Anti/Rage form, that ability wouldn’t really effect their battle unless he entered that form. Sora’s had more practice overall, with a lot more hands-on training, while Riku has had some guidance from a keyblade master (Mickey). I think it could go either way if they went head to head, but with all of Sora’s formchanges, summons, the hecking attractions- he could park a ship on Riku’s head- and other protagonist powers, he might have an advantage. Riku is strong, yes. But can he match up to the sheer amount of crazy stuff Sora can pull off, and has pulled off?
The argument now is “what about Riku’s protagonist powers?” He can do quite a few things that Sora can’t, yes. Dark magic, dream eater abilities, and likely also greater physical strength. He and Sora are tricky to pit against one another for this very reason- they’re both so strong! Riku has access to abilities like dark barrier and double flight in Dream Drop Distance, and I am pretty sure he retains them, and while I believe Sora doesn’t have access to some of those abilities in his standard form, he can use barrier in some of his formchanges, as well as gaining doubleflight- if I remember correctly- at some point during KH3. Overall, Sora is ridiculously OP, and so is Riku. I am now going to consult with the Discord Counsel and see what they have to say on the matter, and will add on to this following that!
That's a loooong council
This is sick! I’ve always wanted to see this! Just loved the thought of kh charecters battling
man this is undeniable proof that id watch most things u make pat
like you could read the telephone book in a 6h vid and id watch it wile doing other stuff
My thoughts on Master Xehanort vs Terra: Terranort on paper is better, but he’s intellectually inferior. I think that he is clearly pretty unhinged compared to calm and rational Master Xehanort. I think that being a fusion of two people makes him unstable, so while technically he could do anything xehanort can, he isn’t in the right place mentally to be as effective. Example: terranort toying with Aqua and Ven in the graveyard. If it was Master X, he would have said a poetic one liner, then just killed them. But terranort gloated around and gave Terra a chance to awaken. That sort of immaturity would be his downfall in that matchup.
I think it’s also sort of implied that even though Xehanort takes over Terra, not all of his abilities transfer over. In every Terranort battle he mostly uses abilities that Terra knew, more effectively than Terra since of course Master Xehanort is more knowledgeable, but we never see Terranort like raise the earth beneath him or anything like that and likewise Xehanort doesn’t really have any of Terranort’s movepool (as far as we’ve seen).
I think the same can probably be said about Luxu after taking over Braig’s body, he’s probably not as strong as he once was.
I could see it going either way. I'd give the edge to Terranort vs Master Xehanort baseline both, Terranort with the Guardian solidly wins, but Master Xehanort with the X-Blade beats Terranort even with the Guardian.
I'd argue that Terranort beats basically everyone when it comes to pure combat ability (Terra's physical strength/capabilities with Xehanort's experience/knowledge, Darkness mastery, and magic is absurd), but he has significant issues with certain matchups if Terra acts up and restarts the battle of wills (mainly Aqua and Ven, but I could see Roxas, Sora, or maybe even Xion reaching Tera to a lesser extent and pulling up an upset as a result).
This was an amazing video. If nothing else, it helped me realize that at some point more than halfway through KH3, offscreen, Terranort and Ansem SOD had to hash out who got the Guardian during the Keyblade War. There's a really good chance Terranort pulled rank on Ansem in the process, too. Quite a thought.
Also, oh my gosh, Riku and Yozora are literally identical aside from the eyes. They're just rendered in KH and Fabula Nova Crystallis art styles. I never put that together.
Aqua and Baymax, both forgotten and corrupted in a dark realm
I kind of feel like Mickey is canonically stronger than Sora, but in general I still love the amount of thought that went into this! But in general some of these were really tough calls. Good job!
I’ll defend Yozora here. I whole heartedly think Yozora beats Riku. Sora has saved and beaten Riku multiple times. And to take it into account that Riku was struggling to deal with Dark Aqua until Sora came in to not only help him beat the demon tide but go fight Dark Aqua as well.
Not to mention that Sora has fought and comically beaten Sephiroth twice, fought against 1000 heartless, then handle Finsl Fantasy characters.
Scaling that to what Riku has done, their strength and speed stats are farther apart.
In the Yozora fight, his attacks art faster then any of Riku’s (even when he’s playable) His kit is dangerous. Being able to shorten your hp, steal hp and items, create a virtual yet physical holigraogic dome, summon clones and enemies of his world and steal. Your. Keyblade. Just feel like Yozora takes the cake completely
Also i’m still extremely unconvinced of Zeus’s power in Kingdom Hearts, as we have quite literally seen him do nothing, vs Larxene who we know for a fact is an extremely skilled, fast, and deadly fighter. Zeus was even taken out by the 3 titans that we went on to beat in KH3 at like level 8 or something lower.
Uuuuuh... deep cut Kingdom Hearts knowledge, Marluxia and Maleficent did kind of fight before... well, Lauriam, Marly's somebody did, back when he was a good boy and had a keyblade. And Maleficent actually beat him. Although, she had help in the form of one of the 13 original super powerful darknesses... we don't know if it actually helped the sorceress fight, though, the battle was off screen.
So who knows! It's not like it actually matters :P thanks for the videos, Pat! Love putting them in the background while I'm doing my chores!
About the Zeus and titan stuff, in Greek mythology, if I’m not mistaken, titans came before gods and when Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades were born, and a whole bunch of stuff with some daddy issues, they ended up defeating all of the titan and kept the trapped forever
My argument is for Sora and this is my own head cannon reasoning why. I think sora is actually way more powerful than anything we have seen him be because he was never officially given a keyblade by anyone. He has been holding on to his power over the keyblade by sheer force of will as shown by taking it back from riku in kh1. The first keyblade that was given to him was at the end oh kh3 by xehanort and it was the xblade. I think now without being held back by not having to will his power over his weapon he can put his full power into his fighting.
Terra Nort deserved to go to the Final 4. Going off cutscenes alone the dude has pretty much taken EVERYTHING from some of the most powerful characters like it's nothing.
I've played Kingdom Hearts since I was a kid and I still have no idea who the f-ck some of these characters are.
A fair few of them are chi characters who've only been in mobile games and back cover
There are roughly 10 titles in total (including the games and movies). After those you’ll know what’s up. Everything is available in one putchase (KH All-in-one Package [PS4])
Kingdom Hearts
Chain of Memories
358/2 Days
Kingdom Hearts II
Birth By Sleep
Re:Coded
0.2 A Fragmentary Passage
Dream Drop Distance
Back Cover
Kingdom Hearts III
Melody of Memories
Dark Road
Xigbar can snipe Scar easily, but then gets arrested for poaching.
There is so much Riku cap in this video bro. Especially considering that Sora draws power "from his bonds", or whatever, dimensions away from his friends. Donald and Goofy not being bodily present for the fight doesnt mean that Sora can't benefit from their bond, thats what all the keychains on Sora's keyblade are anyways right. I would agree if something like Sora's time travel in Re:Mind was brought up as a feat. Sora wouldnt have been able to do it without Kairi and Namine, but Sora didn't have any issues with his bonds until he started to doubt himself. Riku is also slapped hard against the Demon Tower and Aqua fights, and Sora won when he fought the Aqua battle in Re:Mind, so it wasn't just him cleaning up after Riku.
Tbh, I never will see Riku as stronger than Sora, even without friends I don't see Riku outdoing Sora
Yeah I just can’t imagine Riku ever beating Sora in anything but a footrace
@@apathy2454 My reasoning for Sora is that he just has more experience and arguably is better at magic, in terms of physical prowess Riku outshines Sora, but yiu also have to remember Sora is capable of duel weilding Keyblades and has his forms natively now, he in base doesn't match Riku but Riku only has darkness power that he is afraid of using according to ddd agaisnt Sora and his many forms
In ddd I think riku is clearly better but by khiii endgame sora has caught up. He does save riku from darkqua
@@blazingfury057 sora can only use dual Keyblades with his drive forms which he can't access without his friends
@@DeathGodRiku well, he can dual wield with oathkeeper and oblivion form changes, which he can do by himself now
I don’t agree with a good chunk of this, but I was entertained all the same. Great job.
16:03 knocked me out. I was *not* expecting Masamune to look like that, good one.
I THOUGHT IT WAS NORMAL WHAT THE FUCK
It doesn’t look edited
Wait, what's wrong with it? It looks normal to me
Is it edited?
@@aleisshiki3649 it's not
Being a sports fan I have to say I appreciate the amount of sports that are involved.
Come on, Sora has beaten Riku three times in KH1! That last time was a one on one match where Riku used all the Darkness Ansem gave him. Sora fought an exact replica of Riku four times in Castle Oblivion. And Sora had to save Riku and Mickey from Anti-Aqua and managed to get through to her where Riku didn't. While Riku passed the Mark of Mastery where Sora failed, Sora only failed because he got captured by the Organization. There was never any duel between Sora and Riku in the Mark of Mastery. If there was, Sora would have beaten Riku like he always did.
Sam: “Yeah I don’t really respect titles in video games or in real life.” Also Sam: “Yeah, I mean Aqua IS a master” 🧐🤭😉
Oof, I've been exposed :(
I hate to ruin a perfectly good bit, but Vanitas was trained by the main villain of the entire first Saga for 10 years. Geez Pat look at you forgetting important lore from the best Kingdom Hearts game lol
I must amend my prior statement. It has been brought to my attention by some very reliable sources(Pat and Kiwi) that I may have exaggerated the timeline and it was actually closer to 3-5 years, to which I say... Ya got me. I bow my head in shame!
Axel literally gets 1 shot by Terranort in the game there shoulda been no question 🤣😅🤣😅
Mix up the brackets and battlefields and I would definitely watch this type of video again, make it a semi regular series Pat
16:39 I disagree on this matchup. I tend to hold the cutscenes as equal to the gameplay. Riku only wins against Lexaeus because Ansem bails him out and possesses him at the last second. Riku Replica does not have a benefactor/dark-guardian-angel lording over him like the real Riku does, so he would probably lose after putting up a decent fight. There's also another cutscene to consider, where Riku Replica gets smacked around pretty easily by Larxene when he tries to avoid having his memories rewritten by Namine. So that weakens my opinion of his fighting abilities a bit more. Also ALSO, even if I did follow the game logic as the most definitive measure of battle prowess, then remember that real Riku beats Riku Replica every time they meet as well as in the very end, proving they are not equal in strength. So if Real Riku beats Riku Replica, then how can Riku Replica beat Lexaeus...who beat real Riku prior to getting help from Ansem? I like Riku Replica, but I'm of the opinion he would lose against Lexaeus.
In the GBA version of chain of Memories Riku beat Lexeaus and Lexeaus himself admits defeat. But then he tries to pull Riku in the darkness with his last strengh. Then Mickey needed to save Riku from Ansem but Ansem did not interfered in the battle with Lexeaus. But I guess Re Chain of Memorie is the canon one right? Also Riku Replica did grew stronger after killing Zexion and so did Riku after accepting the darkness. So Riku Replica defeating Lexeaus seems plausible.
@@sofaris576 Granted, that is a good point to bring up. I haven't played the GBA version for about fifteen years and clearly there's no way I could have remembered that particular detail. But keep in mind that while people can hold whichever version they want as canon---ultimately, Square Enix chose to change it along with many other scenes to better fit their creative vision.
Also, I acknowledge that Riku Replica becomes stronger after absorbing Zexion's remaining power, but that only occurs _after_ the battle with Lexaeus. He's already defeated at that point and so the increase in Riku Replica's power is irrelevant to him. I'm concerned with both Rikus' level of strength during the timeframe of Lexaeus' battle while he was still around---and at that time, Riku Replica hadn't yet absorbed Zexion's power and was still weaker than the real Riku. We then retread my previous point where Lexaeus knocks the real Riku out despite his injuries, resulting in a technical victory for Lexaeus. Riku Replica, having already lost to the real Riku up until that point (and every point after), would not have even made it that far.
I say all of this because I'm inclined to favor the PS2 version (to bring things back on topic). Its sheer level of additional content and graphical sophistication satisfied many people's expectation of quality on par with that of its sibling games. That cosmetic assessment aside however, you can still value the GBA version as canon, but there are many reasons to consider the PS2 version's as well.
I though in these versus debates its common to compare the characters at there strongest known until now. Saying Lexaeus is stronger in that time frame snd thats why he wins the match up is like saying Radditz beats Goku becuse at one point in time he was stronger even though now Goku is kinda a god. I mean tecknicaly your right but its s wired way to go about a versus debate. Why should we not take Riku Replica getting stronger in to Account just becuse Lexseus is dead at this point? All of these Match ups are what if scenarios anyway.
@@sofaris576 The reason I localize my argument in the whole Chain of Memories era is because that's precisely when both characters did any fighting in the series at all. It's when they were both alive to even be comparable in the first place. You want me to evaluate Riku Replica's strength now? _He's been DEAD this whole time!_ His power peaked and ended in CoM and hasn't gone up one lick. I know he started living on inside the real Riku just before the events of KH3 as like a ghost or something, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as "getting stronger". Meanwhile, Lexaeus was recompleted and came back to life as Aeleus. So even if I did apply the current era argument now, Aeleus is now back on track getting stronger again. Riku Replica however, willingly gave up his chance at returning to life for Namine to be brought back. So Square Enix has twisted my arm and forced me to sample my data based only on what the series has given me.
@@AtomicF0x Riku Replica did get stronger in chain of memory after Lexaeus death. I did not say anything about after chain of memories. If I not misunderstood you, you disregarded Riku Replica getting stronger becuse it happend after Lexaeus death.
Although its true that we dont know how much stronger he became. He did not acomplish anything with his new power. He just got defeated by Riku. I am not saying Riku Replica is defently stronger then Lexaeus but I still think its possebile.
Thank god I’m not the only person who is irritated by an unseeded bracket. This is indeed the best internet bracket I’ve ever seen.
It’s funny to hear “titans aren’t gods, they’re just big” - in the Disney movie, that’s pretty much true, they are mostly just big monsters.
But in Greek myth, the titans weren’t actually necessarily that large, but they were actually stronger than the gods - namely, the gods (including Zeus and hades) are all children of the titans.
i did address this ignorance in a follow up vid
D:
Respecting that this was done primarely for shits and giggles I still think this whole video would've profited greatly if at least some rules were implemented, mostly regarding consistency.
Specifically the question: what do we count for power scaling? Story? Cutscenes? Gameplay? All of them? Because depending how you go about it one would need to change many parts of the bracket. For example if we were to go with Gameplay as the biggest factor then everyone with Stop (and it's upgrades) would move up several spots (since, well, being immobilized is pretty bad). Also someone like Seph would be rivaling other Seed 1s, given that he, at best, only needs two hits to kill every enemy via Heartless Angels. In the same vain the argument for Yozora basically would never change. He can steal your shit, how can you really defend against that (i.e: if he can use Xions stuff against her and come out on top than I really do not see how Riku can turn the tides there). The only characters that you would need to talk way more about would be every playable character because of the concept of level ups, skills and especially item usage.
The both of you showed that dilemma with Master Xehanort vs. Terranort. Storywise it would make sense to put Terranort above Master since, well, he keeps everything great about himself just with the bonus of a better body. But gameplay-wise I think most would agree that Master just shts on Terranort all the time. So more specifications regarding the weighting of sources would have maybe helped out.
Also I would auto-exclude characters which haven't shown anything, be it via gameplay or story/cutscene, which is mostly directed at MoM and Luxu. Too hard to really judge which easily leads to building them bigger with your expectations and wishes.
By the way, to me, the KH2 Genie Jafar fight plus him taking blizzard damage in KH1 are definitive proof genies aren’t invincible and can probably even be killed. I’m pretty sure the only reason the keyblade fully bounced off of The actual Genie in KH1 is because Sora just wasn’t aiming for him, but it wouldn’t be outlandish to say that one ultra powerful magic weapon at least has a pretty damn good chance at another powerful magic being.
I completely agree that Riku beats Sora. Up to the end of KH2 Sora wins hands down, but Riku is the GOAT during 3D and then gets banished to the Realm of Darkness for most of 3 because Namura knows he's stronger than Sora and didn't know how to handle it lol. Sora having final form back would be tough, but not unbeatable. It DOES have a time limit.
Also I think i'd do a few matchups differently. For instance I think the case could be made that Terra was holding back Terranort during the story, and maybe if that restriction wasn't there then he would indeed be stronger than geriatric nort. But ultimately everyone gets bodied by Sora and Riku anyway so I think it doesn't matter too much.
I love this vid haha, especially because the KH series is so wonky and you can make so many cases for people who shouldn't otherwise have them. Like how do you even rank the FF characters anyways? They are all god-level in their games, but don't do ass in KH. Who knows
sora without his friends? l mean, he was able to fight xemnas, roxas, riku two times in kh1, ansem in kh1, the literal heartless army in 2, and chased after what was essentially the grim reaper and fought him off to SAVE RIKU himself. oh, and topping Yozora. l think solo Sora is a bit underestimated
Some of those examples are tricky, especially the Yozora one, where I believe Yozora actually won just going off of the structure of the bad ending and the novel itself which has Yozora winning. Solo Sora is no doubt strong, but on the likes of characters such as Terra and Xehanort? No way.
@@Zoecoon in melody of memories tho, Sora saves Kairi, which he couldn't do if he was frozen. Plus, the game files calls the Yozora ending "fake" and the Sora ending "Real", and the luxord reveal being in a noncanon ending would be odd.
@@25shadow11 The Novel has Sora being beaten and Luxord being revealed likewise, and I don't see why it go along with that version unless it was the ideal ending, I always chopped the "Real" ending up to it being the ending you get by beating the boss which was intended for you to get through the next section of the game, which in that sense, it is the Real ending due to you completing that section. Never played Melody of Memories so I did not know that. Also, do we know when the Yozora fight took place? Does Sora reference it in Melody of Memory?
@@Zoecoon what is this "novel" you are speaking off? And in the files of KH3, the Sora winning ending is called "True ending". And At the end of MoM, Kairi is facing an apparition of Xehanort, but Sora controls her and saves the day, Xehanort remarking on how Soras voice can't reach them, meaning he's "outside of reality" in a fictional world(Quadratum, as the nameless star reveals the name of the world Sora is in, cause she remembers it when Riku mentions "city full of skyscrapers). So, it stands to reason that Sora rescued Kairi, it took place sometime after his battle with Yozora, which he won, then Riku uses the nameless star and Fairy godmother to reach Quadratum
@@25shadow11 I'll link you to the reddit post, or I can send you a direct screenshot of the page. If you want the screenshot add me on IG:tinyynick, and yes, I know its called the "True" ending, I just find it jarring for the novel implement Sora losing (from the bad ending) and also Luxord as the driver (from the good ending) almost as if its trying to remedy the confusion on the games part.
In my opinion, it comes down to either Sora or Master Xehanort. In Kingdom Hearts III, Master Xehanort's journal entry describes him as "the most powerful Keyblade Master of them all," and King Mickey tells Aqua and Riku, "I'll need both of your help if we're gonna push Xehanort out of this world," which shows that King Mickey thought that three Keyblade Masters were needed to defeat Xehanort (although I don't know how much we can trust what King Mickey says). Plus, as Terranort, he single-handedly defeats all of the guardians of light.
Sora, on the other hand, was able to defeat Master Xehanort when he had the X-Blade and controlled Kingdom Hearts. True, Sora needed Donald and Goofy's help to deliver the final blow to Master Xehanort in the main story, but Sora's Recreated Data defeats Master Xehanort's Recreated Data all by himself in the Limitcut Episode. That data of Master Xehanort was not only recreated from when he had the X-Blade and controlled Kingdom Hearts, but it was also more powerful than the real Master Xehanort, as Cid said, "I must be better at this than I thought 'cause their data, it's so powerful, I can't access any of it." Additionally, what makes Sora so powerful is his connection to his friends. When Sora delivers his "my friends are my power" speech in Dream Drop Distance, Xigbar, aka Luxu, is literally shaking in his boots.
In the end, I think Sora wins, but I think a case can be made for Master Xehanort.
This isn't gonna age well if we find out that Master of Masters is just a dude without any real combat powers. Still, we have to assume he has something
On the lore justification for Master Xehanort vs Terranort, I think MX was correct to think that possessing Terra would make him more powerful, but his plan only partially succeeded. Terra's resistance resulted in an amnesiac Terranort, who I believe was thereby robbed of much of his knowledge and skill, but still had tremendous raw power. I still take Terranort over MX, but a Terranort who fully possessed Terra and retained his knowledge would have annihilated Aqua in BBS and basically anyone on this bracket. In real canon it's a reasonably close matchup, but according to Master Xehanort's original hopes, it shouldn't have been.
A good comparison to make is between BBS terranort and KH3 terranort.
In BBS terra was still resisting, whereas the other terranort seen in KH3 was completely taken over. Keep in mind KH3 terranort is technically an entire different character, since after xemnas and ansem were defeated they reformed back into terra and xehanort. The newly reformed terra was then properly norted, as opposed to the interrupted ritual seen in BBS.
This would also explain why terranort bodied all the guardians of light in KH3 meanwhile he got beat by aqua in BBS.
Essentially KH3 terranort > MX > BBS terranort
I think yall may be sleeping on ven. I have a feeling in the future he will fully embrace the light and become insanely powerful.
I'm 1000% sure that the MoM is supposed to be based on Jack from Agito XIII (which would explain why Yozora is Versus XIII Noctis) but that means 1. that he's gotta be a Demyx, and 2. he's probably extremely deadly with a blade. It's exciting to think about bc Jack is one of the strongest characters in DFFOO, meaning that he's one of the strongest Final Fantasy characters, period. (Definitely the /deadliest/ human character in his own canon, but absolutely indestructible in the timelines where he becomes a l'Cie.) I can't say for sure if Jack could best Sephiroth in a fight, but Cloud has canonically said that he thinks Jack is even more unpredictable than Sephiroth, so that's saying something.
But yeah, if you wanna experience God Mode Demyx, play Type-0. He can 1HKO 90% of the enemies in the game with the basic attack from his default katana. It's just funny because he has That personality the whole time.
With that said, Sora would beat MoM because Sora would talk to him and make him feel bad. That's how you beat Jack. You make him feel his own feelings.
So my opinion on the master nort vs Terra nort debate is master nort is already lv 99 and has the oversized mp bar to prove it, but when he takes over Terra he's putting his heart into a body that's much closer to level 25-30. So he's not able to use some of his OP abilities in that body yet. His physical traits are all increased because younger body with better stamina and strength but MUCH less magic proficiency, which seems to have been nort's go to. So in the moment master nort is stronger, but if nort didnt separate himself into a heartless and nobody he would have became much stronger long term
I honestly agree with almost everything on this bracket. Except with the Master Nort vs Tearra Nort bit. Sure the main goal of Xehanort was just to live to see the end of the keyblade war but when he says "Out with the old brittle vessel, in with the stronger younger new one." The same mind in a younger vessel could no doubt overpower the older one. But almost every fight after that bracket would end up exactly the same.
Terranort has an edge over Master Xehanort, Terranort with Guardian solidly wins, but Master Xehanort with the X-Blade probably beats Terranort, Guardian or no.
Take away the X-Blade though and I think Terranort is the single strongest combatant in the series. He only ever loses in the entire series if Terra resists and restarts the battle of wills (which makes me think he loses to Aqua or Ven, and maybe Roxas/Sora/Xion depending on if their connection/resemblance to Ven is enough.)
This was a fun bracket and thought experiment. I can see Riku beating Sora, they kinda implied this with DDD. I feel like they are fairly close in terms of powers. I would probably say that Aqua could beat Master Nort. Aqua is kind of the eventuality that Xehanort couldn't really prepare for. There's the fact that Aqua would be more suspectible to darkness due to her time in RoD but I feel like a fully recovered Aqua would really be able to resist that more.
The Back Cover/X characters along with Luxu and Yozora are all pretty unknown. For all we know they could clean up this entire bracket. So it'll be interesting to see whenever we get more from them fighting
The blatant Riku favoritism is wild. "The realm of darkness does something to you" sure, maybe its a debuff to others with minimal darkness resistance, but do you know who's IMMUNE to darkness? Riku. Sora meanwhile plunges headfirst into what had just recently made him comatose and sapped his powers, beats anti aqua for riku, and saves all three of them.
I’d still say Sora wins the Riku matchup in 3, we just haven’t seen what Riku is fully capable of at this point in time. Hopefully the Quadratum game changes that.
Regarding Riku vs Yozora, I think Riku wins even if Yozora steals Riku's Keyblade. More than half of the franchise Riku never used a Keyblade to win and was able to defeat much of the Organization in Castle Oblivion, even the Riku techniques in Chain of Memories are of a high level, capable of designing different types of weapon without needing a Keyblade
You should do a video on the difference in difficulty between a proud mode kingdom key only run and a proud mode lvl 1 run! I dont think one exists yet :p also maybe a 100% completion series because we really like your commentary and watching you play, plus I think it would be the most fun for you
To weigh into the Terranort / Master Xehanort discussion - the way I always interpreted the canon is that Terranort is absolutely the most powerful version of Xehanort, but he suffers from a sort of Achilles heel. Terranort can do anything Xehanort can do (which is why I think he leads the attack against the Seven Lights at the start of the Keyblade Graveyard, a fight that I will remind you results in all their deaths until Sora does his time travel nonsense). Additionally, if Terranort wasn't stronger wouldn't Master Xehanort want to use his own body to create a Heartless and Nobody? Why use Terra's body unless he knew it was the superior model. Furthermore, Terra's the only 13 Darkness that DOES NOT LOSE in his fight against Sora - he wins, straight up summons some chains and takes out Ventus, Aqua, and Sora. Like, he doesn't even seem winded (he doesn't NEED to use any of Master Xehanort's most powerful abilities, he's crushing it just having a fun time with some chains). He only loses because of the intervention of Terra - which leads to Terranort's weakness: Terra. Terranort has, from the very beginning of his existence, been hindered by Terra's Lingering Will and Heart - remember that Xehanort takes over Terra AFTER a long fight in the graveyard, Terra is clearly tired, and then he becomes Terranort - Lingering Will probably only wins the following fight because Terranort is physically exhausted and Lingering Will is just a suit of armor fueled by rage. Then, it's safe to assume Terranort loses to Aqua due to the struggle going on inside him between Terra and Xehanort - Terra would do everything he can to prevent Aqua's death. After that he has amnesia for most of his life - hindering any knowledge of his powers and abilities. In the end, Terranort is defeated by a surprise attack from Terra. My point is this: we have never seen a totally fair fight against Terranort. Everything I've seen leads me to believe that in a fair fight he obliterates anyone with ease - but Master Xehanort ultimately deemed Terranort a failure because he was incapable of purging Terra from him and that meant Terranort would always be fighting with a disadvantage. Xehanort probably thinks of Ansem and Xemnas as the superior versions because they were finally able to suppress Terra entirely. SO as far as Terranort v. Anyone in this Bracket the question would have to be is Terra helping Terranort or hindering him? If he's helping I think Terranort wins every fight in this bracket without so much as a sweat (except maybe Sora, Aqua, and Riku). If Terra is holding Terranort back I think Terranort loses to Master Xehanort.
I genuinely think that Sora would’ve have needed PHYSICAL help from Donald and Goofy if he hadn’t just been the MVP of 5 Group Fights with the strongest wielders of darkness, got hit in the back with a cheep shot by a floating Keyblade, fought 13 replicas all at the same time, and then had to do a 3 for 3 battle with Xehanort, where he had to win every one of them while Xehanort could change forms and weapons, in which he finally gained the X-Blade, and Sora matched him blow for blow until the very end where he needed just a little bit of help from non-Keyblade weilding pals to tank a direct hit from the X-Blade and then not only deflect the attack but overpower it.
Sora definitely gains great strength of heart from having friends and knowing they love him, and that’s very important, but Goofy says it himself that “It’s not like we will be much help without Keyblades” which is BULLSHIT, those two need their own Keyblades- but besides the point-
Sora was MVP the entire season and most of the playoffs where in the final quarter of the final game he needed a bit of support. PUT SOME RESPECT ON HIS NAME.
I really don't wanna be THAT person but there's some match ups I want to argue about.
1. Injured Mickey fought off and kinda beat all 13 Xheanort ghosts or whatever they were alone till Sora and Kairi arrived and freed everyone else (everyone else being all the other keyblade weilders who fought and lost to said Xheanorts). Luxu is strong of course but we don't know how much, we haven't seen anything from him yet. So there's really no arguement for not giving the win to Mickey and I'm glad you did.
2. You didn't take into account the latest feats proven by Ven in UX, where we see him manifesting his powers as a true light. Sephiroth kinda loses to true/pure lights by lore. ALSO KH1 Sora beat Sephiroth, and you don't really think Ven is at least around that level by KH3? I don't think Sephiroth has given it his all in KH of course he's just a side boss but there's still too much of a case to make for Ven to be one of the strongest 5 characters in the series now.
3. You guys are REALLY hyping Eraqus up, what did he even do? We could assume he was stronger than start BBS Terra but when they fought towards the end Eraqus was going all out and Terra was just defending himself and he still beat him pretty easily. Now this Terra should scale to KH2 Riku, and this Riku would not really be that much stronger than Final Form Marluxia from CoM. Add the Xheanort boost he got in KH3 and there's no way he loses to Eraqus imo.
4. I don't think Xion could beat Yozora, but I want to point out your main argument was he can steal her stuff, Xion can mimic other people's stuff so she would be the one taking the stuff from Yozora but regardless
Interesting thoughts about Eraqus. I can see a case for Marly beating him. From my perspective, he’s possibly the most technical Keyblade wielder we’ve seen. A lot of Keyblade-based attacks, blocking, charges. I feel like he’s frustratingly patient as an actual boss battle. I never found that fight to be particularly easy, but that kind of thing will change from player to player and strat to strat. There’s something intimidating about his style. Maybe it’s just Mark Hamill’s screaming. Nevertheless, I think his seeding is justified given his history and skill.
Call it my head canon but part of the reason why I feel like sully beat Vanitas is because he's literally a being of a emotion. Sully literally scared the shit out of him and unbalanced him.
Dolan’s got nothing on my gal Xion, she’s got like 50 different battle armors ready to go
But zettaflare?
@@langleysenterprise5134 Zettaflare didn't even take out Terranort with no armor lmao
@@handsoaphandsoap zettaflare did take out terranort but donald dies afterwards so it would just be a draw
@@langleysenterprise5134 unconfirmed, we never saw the body. besides terranort got nothing on my gal xion either tbh
I feel like Terranort doesn’t have light powers at his control like MX bc he had to make him embrace darkness to be available as a vessel. Terranort also has all his inner turmoil going on blocking his memory and control of MX’s full arsenal. Terranort was more proof of concept/giving himself more time to enact a master plan than it was to be physically stronger, and was honestly kind of a botched proof of concept at that.
most characters choose between light and darkness while riku uses both effectively and sora lets darkness take him over for a short while
Sora also wields light better than anyone else though, so is being a true master of one better than being adept with both?
Something that I don’t think was properly considered: when Sora was lost in “a city”, and was kinda sorta not existing a little bit, he still managed to pull some Jedi projection shit and absolutely body Xehanort in Melody of Memory. Like, he doesn’t even exist and he kicked that man’s ass.
People are always going to yell and bitch whenever power scaling is involved. They let their emotion outweigh the logic. Don’t apologize to those sheep.
Actually, the Gula vs Genie got me thinking for a while. Like, genie's main weakness is obviusly that he is in a lamp, and even thought he is no longer trapped, i feel like a keyblade master is the best oponent against him.
Like, maybe she can lock him somewhere with the keyblade if she knows what she's doing, and i dont think genie can just wipe someone out of existence, so maybe one she has some time to try that. Or maybe im just overthinking
Slight correction, Gula is a he.
Sorry but Riku as the winner makes No sense. Where Riku and Mickey failed(dark realm), Sora conquered. With no help from them or Donald and Goofy. If Riku and Mickey couldn’t defeat a dark aqua, how could Riku Solo MX? You’ve over played Riku and underplayed Sora and MX. clearly Sora is the winner or solo loses against MX
The idea that disney characters were going to be in a fighting game was absurd pitting them against each other is ridiculous. I love it.
59:57 Coming back to this, in my head, I think the reason old Xehanort takes Terra-nort is because although he's implanted himself into a younger body, Terra-nort still has to expend energy to contend with Terra's heart/Lingering Will, which nerfs him a bit
I think Terrannort vs MX is entirely dependent on if we’re considering the X-Blade
Ok, so, if Genie isn’t free then if you don’t have someone to control genie he can’t do shit, and you implied that Genie is still tied to the lamp, so unless Aladdin isn’t there Gula could just rub the lamp and make Genie fight for him
Goofy has implied that Donald used Zettaflare more than once, so he would win without a doubt
Disagreements (R1):
Vanitas over Auron: Vanitas may be a jobber, but Auron had some trouble with a very weakened Herc. And Vanitas > early/mid-game BBS Ven >= Base BBS Maleficent.
I do agree with Aced over Luxord, though it may be interesting if Luxord turns out to be someone super strong. He _was_ throwing his fight in KH3 at least.
Gula over Genie: I think there's a chance here. We _do_ see Sora hurt Genie Jafar straight up in KH2. And scaling Genie~=Genie Jafar and Gula>=lategame, pre-Roxas KH2 Sora seem reasonable.
Maleficent over Marluxia: I think Maleficent gets a real bad rap. One big problem is that we don't know how her Dragon form works. Seemed voluntary in BBS but wasn't (maybe?) in KH1. Still, she seemed to low-diff Lauriam (understandable, as Lauriam ~= early/mid BBS Ven and UX Maleficent >= BBS Maleficent). And if we give her Dragon form, I'll take her. In my opinion, KH1 pre-Roxas Sora >= CoM mind-fricked Sora, he had Donald and Goofy for Maleficent. _AND_ Maleficent got a buff in Coded. People forget that last one, but she was able to all of a sudden ignore the Cornerstone. So I think she takes Marluxia again. And hey, they both have plants but only she has the fire to burn them.
Ira over Zexion: LOLOLOLOLOL. This take was so dumb it hurt. KH3 Kairi did ok vs. an amped Xemnas and against MX. And yet you have Ava > Kairi (fine) but Zexion > Ira?!?!? Come on!
Man, with Dark Road, this Maleficent take has aged like fine wine.
Sora beats Master of Masters because Sora does whatever possible to win. Even if he has to go back in time and rewrite the timeline. Sora beat the whole Organization in KH3 still having stamina for the final battle. Everyone else like Aqua needed to take a break after one battle, meanwhile Sora defeats the whole organization then fights Xehanort. And Sora beat Yozora. MoM will be his biggest fight, but he can do it.