Elrond survived the third kinslaying, saw how his brothers empire collapsed, and experienced the consequences of Isildurs betrayal his grim outlook on humanity is understandable as he has suffered much.
Elrond is a very interesting character, with ties to so many others. Having "twin" sons must have reminded him of his own twin brother, Elros. Did he ever see his brother again once Elros became the first king of Numenor? Elrond did a great job raising Aragorn who he must have loved as a son, so he must have been torn when Arwen and Aragorn fell in love. Never mind the fact that he was basically a single father once Celibrian felt she had no choice but to leave her family. I love how intricate these familial relationships are in Tolkien's works. Sometimes hard to keep track, but you help with that Matt. Another fantastic video.
Well said about Elrond's intricate familial relationships! So true - there's so much going on under the surface. As for whether Elrond ever saw Elros after Elros became king, I think the answer, unfortunately, is "no." There's no record of Elrond visiting Numenor, and the first Numenorean credited with sailing back to Middle-Earth was Veantur - who did so several years after Elros passed away.
From all the people who describe the lore I have to say you are one the top and most knowledgeable and any errors you make are so minuscule it doesn't even matter really. I know I already requested a talk through about ar Pharazon my favorite character of the lore but speaking elves my favorite being maedhros but second most fav is of course glorfindel. Who's your fav elf or fav character in the entire lore
Non Care Thanks so much for the compliment! I really appreciate it. As for my favorite "elf" in the lore, I'm going to go with Elrond's half-elven father, Earendil the Mariner. Many heroic deeds, and a willingness to sacrifice for others - and had a huge impact on the lore, between the actions of he and Elwing, and later, his children, Elrond and Elros.
Elrond, is the character who has seen it all, isn't he? He is the distillation of all of the greatness of the Noldor, Edain, and Maiar in Middle Earth. He had the birthright to claim the overlordship of all of the Noldorin houses due to his descent from Turgon. He could claim the rights of the overlordship of all of the Sindarin elves in Middle Earth as the sole surviving heir to Thingol. I suppose that his choice to live life as an Elf kept him from claiming the rights of the overlordship of the houses of the Edain being descended from the ruling families of all three. He holds the wisdom of his Maiar great-grandmother, Melian. He has duties that the overlord of the Noldor, Sindar, and Edain that he never shirks (except in Jackson's interpretation of his character in the films)(GET OFF MY LAWN). He embodies the intersection of all of the good in Illuvatar's creation. And he suffers for it. There are others who are older, born in the time before the coming of the moon and sun, but he is special. The other characters who have deep reservoirs of power and knowledge and ancient wisdom are not always present in the fight against Sauron. Galadriel retreats to Lorien and is not seen as an active participant in the second age conflicts (after her expulsion from Eregion by Celebrimbor). Her husband Celeborn is not mentioned as participating in, let alone acting as a leader of the Last Alliance. Cirdan plays only a small role by the time of the War of the Ring. Regardless of who else is there, Elrond is in it. He is at all of the councils. He fights Sauron at every turn. He preserves what he can and provides the haves necessary to support the struggle against Sauron. He perseveres to the end and loses his children. He reunites with his mother and wife but the children all make the choice of Elros, don't they? I was never clear on Elladan's and Elrohir's ultimate choice. The sacrifices he makes are greater than that of any of Tolkien's great heroes. Well done Matt!
Thanks, Thomas! I love your eloquent description of Elrond. As for his sons, Tolkien never stated whether they eventually sailed West. We know they stayed at Rivendell after Elrond sailed away. I was just chatting with another commenter about this topic. I think the most likely scenario is that Elrond sailed West to reunite with Celebrian, but Rivendell still needed leadership - so the sons stayed for a while until the majority of the elves had left, and then the twins likely joirneyed West to be reunited with their parents.
I think that Elladan & Elrohir eventually went west on the last ship(s) to sail from the Grey Havens & Tolkien just forgot to tell us about it. What alternatives did they have other than to sail west or become disembodied spirits(wraiths?) in Middle Earth? I like to think that Elrond & Celebrian had other children when they were reunited in Aman.
I think you're right - that in listing all of the characters who sailed West, there were some, like the twins, that Tolkien didn't specifically mention. Though it is noteworthy that they decided to stay at Rivendell when their father left. The likely reasoning is that Elrond wanted to be reunited with Celebrian in the West, but Rivendell still needed leadership for a time, so the sons stayed to manage the place.
For a while I was getting the rings mixed up.... simply by thinking that Elrond must have the ring of water because he could command the flood at the fords of the Bruinen... but he had the most powerful ring... the ring of the air. How, then, could he command the water? Could it be that little bit of Maia in him? IDK... but I guess that's the nature of magic... a way to explain things that cannot yet be explained. Tho, I do think incantation is more important and often ovelooked. I read somewhere that Sauron or Morgoth tortured some of the eagles trying to learn the secret words to enable flight... so obviously, and especially since the world is a creation of music... vibration and frequency (which Tesla urges us to understand).... there ARE some secrets for singing or chanting things into existence or action.... incantation.
@@DorkLords = also, Aragorn recited an incantation over the blade that struck Frodo.... Gandalf issued words of command (incantation?)... I'd imagine that releasing intent through vibration and frequency is the "magic" used most often for the more powerful acts. (Please forgive all these comments.... I lost my voice 38 years ago to cancer.... and I can get carried away "talking" when I get the opportunity.... lol)
Great video Matt, very thorough material! Question, sorry if you've covered this in another video (still going through back log), but when you say the Valar, the gods, were to be convinced to come to east to help the elves fight Morgoth, what physical form do the gods take? Do the books ever explain it?
Justin Parker That's a great question! I was recently asked to do a video on the Valar, but I haven't done it, yet. Yes, the Silmarillion does give descriptions of the Valar. For example, here's a description of Tulkas, the Vala who defeated Melkor in hand to hand combat: “Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend.”
@@DorkLords Thanks! I wasn't aware of that passage. A video on them would be amazing, looking forward to it. I know Tolkien draws upon many mythologies but the Valar sound very Norse in appearance at least and are described like the poems would describe a Norse being. I know Melkor (or was it Sauron?) was locked in his physical form, so were the Valor not? Such that when they were west in their lands they wouldn't be physical and would only take form when they come to ME to help? Sorry I think about logistical things like this probably more than the author intends the reader to.
Justin Parker Well observed! Tolkien definitely had a Norse influence on his mythology. And yes, Melkor loses the power to change physical shape - meaning the Valar can change. Here's a great description of Melkor changing shape to challenge the Valar (before he lost the ability: "His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.”
Hey been watching your Lord of the rings/middleearth video's for the last few days have too say thier great i am fascinated by the lore that goes with it and the mind that can create such depth pretty much the same as george lucus in Star wars, i really like the video's on the years of trees and the frist age, , is thier any info on what happened to the evles who stayed at Cuiviénen did anyone ever travel their , blue wizaards,gandalf, aragon etc and the Vanyar / Ingwë, deals at the place of tranquility and bit of a long short is thier like history of valanor once the noldor left middle earth , as i know Olwë is at Alqualondë but just wonderng if thier is any info on the history of valanor? any way awesome stuff
Thanks so much for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying the videos. That's a great topic idea - I've added "the history of Valinor after the Noldor left" to my list. There is such info about Valinor - from Earnedil's arrival, to the decision to fight the War of Wrath, to dealings with Numenor and its downfall, to the decision to send the emissaries in the 3rd age, etc.
At Aragorn coronation in the movie (after Aragorn kissed Arwen) , there is 8 pointed star banner on sight possibly brought by one of Elrond company ; is that Maglor banner or star of Elendil banner? Is it written in the book , that Elrond bring any banner to that event?
Great observation! I checked out the scene and saw the banner. There is a reference to a silver banner in the book (quote below). I think in this case, the 8 pointed star is a symbol of the House of Elrond - referencing the Star of Earendil (his father). I've mainly seen the star of earendil with 6 points, but i've also seen depictions with 8. Here's the quote: “First rode Elrohir and Elladan with a banner of silver, and then came Glorfindel and Erestor and all the household of Rivendell, and after them came the Lady Galadriel and Celeborn, Lord of Lothlórien, riding upon white steeds and with them many fair folk of their land, grey-cloaked with white gems in their hair; and last came Master Elrond, mighty among Elves and Men, bearing the sceptre of Annúminas, and beside him upon a grey palfrey rode Arwen his daughter, Evenstar of her people."
I have a hard time of thinking Elrond as an Half-elf in Peter Jackon's adaptation, since he is played Hugo Weaving, who looks more like he is playing a Vulcan from Star Trek than a Half-elf, with his arched eyebrows, pointy ears and stern face.
Sorry this isn’t directly related to the video but would you be able to explain how Legolas has blonde hair? No know blonde is a rare color of the vanyar bloodline but how does Legolas get it all the way in the third age? His dad had silver hair if I remember right and I believe he was Sindarin.... or was was he silven those always trip me up. HELP ME!!
Great question! You're right about the rarity of blonde haired elves. And I don't think Tolkien ever definitively states Legolas' hair color. However, in The Hobbit, Tolkien describes Thranduil this way: “...and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair." So, it is possible that Legolas was in fact a blonde.
@@DorkLords I do hope you'll be musing on the likely ultimate fate of Maglor who we see wandering off on his own after the end of the War of Wrath. (Perhaps you do so in the Silmarils episode...). I'm also looking forward to your Maedhros episode and hope to see you compare the deaths of Maedhros and Gollum.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Elrond survived the third kinslaying, saw how his brothers empire
collapsed, and experienced the consequences of Isildurs betrayal his
grim outlook on humanity is understandable as he has suffered much.
Monsignor Martinez Good point - particularly about seeing Numenor fall. That would be incredibly personal for him.
Elrond is a very interesting character, with ties to so many others. Having "twin" sons must have reminded him of his own twin brother, Elros. Did he ever see his brother again once Elros became the first king of Numenor? Elrond did a great job raising Aragorn who he must have loved as a son, so he must have been torn when Arwen and Aragorn fell in love. Never mind the fact that he was basically a single father once Celibrian felt she had no choice but to leave her family. I love how intricate these familial relationships are in Tolkien's works. Sometimes hard to keep track, but you help with that Matt. Another fantastic video.
Well said about Elrond's intricate familial relationships! So true - there's so much going on under the surface.
As for whether Elrond ever saw Elros after Elros became king, I think the answer, unfortunately, is "no." There's no record of Elrond visiting Numenor, and the first Numenorean credited with sailing back to Middle-Earth was Veantur - who did so several years after Elros passed away.
From all the people who describe the lore I have to say you are one the top and most knowledgeable and any errors you make are so minuscule it doesn't even matter really. I know I already requested a talk through about ar Pharazon my favorite character of the lore but speaking elves my favorite being maedhros but second most fav is of course glorfindel. Who's your fav elf or fav character in the entire lore
Non Care Thanks so much for the compliment! I really appreciate it. As for my favorite "elf" in the lore, I'm going to go with Elrond's half-elven father, Earendil the Mariner. Many heroic deeds, and a willingness to sacrifice for others - and had a huge impact on the lore, between the actions of he and Elwing, and later, his children, Elrond and Elros.
Well, Elrond sees his father every night in the sky.
Yep - I love that imagery!
Elrond, is the character who has seen it all, isn't he? He is the distillation of all of the greatness of the Noldor, Edain, and Maiar in Middle Earth. He had the birthright to claim the overlordship of all of the Noldorin houses due to his descent from Turgon. He could claim the rights of the overlordship of all of the Sindarin elves in Middle Earth as the sole surviving heir to Thingol. I suppose that his choice to live life as an Elf kept him from claiming the rights of the overlordship of the houses of the Edain being descended from the ruling families of all three. He holds the wisdom of his Maiar great-grandmother, Melian.
He has duties that the overlord of the Noldor, Sindar, and Edain that he never shirks (except in Jackson's interpretation of his character in the films)(GET OFF MY LAWN). He embodies the intersection of all of the good in Illuvatar's creation. And he suffers for it.
There are others who are older, born in the time before the coming of the moon and sun, but he is special. The other characters who have deep reservoirs of power and knowledge and ancient wisdom are not always present in the fight against Sauron. Galadriel retreats to Lorien and is not seen as an active participant in the second age conflicts (after her expulsion from Eregion by Celebrimbor). Her husband Celeborn is not mentioned as participating in, let alone acting as a leader of the Last Alliance. Cirdan plays only a small role by the time of the War of the Ring. Regardless of who else is there, Elrond is in it. He is at all of the councils. He fights Sauron at every turn. He preserves what he can and provides the haves necessary to support the struggle against Sauron. He perseveres to the end and loses his children. He reunites with his mother and wife but the children all make the choice of Elros, don't they? I was never clear on Elladan's and Elrohir's ultimate choice.
The sacrifices he makes are greater than that of any of Tolkien's great heroes.
Well done Matt!
Thanks, Thomas! I love your eloquent description of Elrond. As for his sons, Tolkien never stated whether they eventually sailed West. We know they stayed at Rivendell after Elrond sailed away. I was just chatting with another commenter about this topic. I think the most likely scenario is that Elrond sailed West to reunite with Celebrian, but Rivendell still needed leadership - so the sons stayed for a while until the majority of the elves had left, and then the twins likely joirneyed West to be reunited with their parents.
I think it be funny if Elrond pushed him into the volcano and destroy the one ring right away lol
That would have saved a lot a trouble! 🙂 Much shorter story.
I think that Elladan & Elrohir eventually went west on the last ship(s) to sail from the Grey Havens & Tolkien just forgot to tell us about it. What alternatives did they have other than to sail west or become disembodied spirits(wraiths?) in Middle Earth?
I like to think that Elrond & Celebrian had other children when they were reunited in Aman.
I think you're right - that in listing all of the characters who sailed West, there were some, like the twins, that Tolkien didn't specifically mention. Though it is noteworthy that they decided to stay at Rivendell when their father left. The likely reasoning is that Elrond wanted to be reunited with Celebrian in the West, but Rivendell still needed leadership for a time, so the sons stayed to manage the place.
For a while I was getting the rings mixed up.... simply by thinking that Elrond must have the ring of water because he could command the flood at the fords of the Bruinen... but he had the most powerful ring... the ring of the air. How, then, could he command the water? Could it be that little bit of Maia in him? IDK... but I guess that's the nature of magic... a way to explain things that cannot yet be explained. Tho, I do think incantation is more important and often ovelooked. I read somewhere that Sauron or Morgoth tortured some of the eagles trying to learn the secret words to enable flight... so obviously, and especially since the world is a creation of music... vibration and frequency (which Tesla urges us to understand).... there ARE some secrets for singing or chanting things into existence or action.... incantation.
Right - we see the power of incantation present in Luthien, the singing duel between Finrod and Sauron, and the songs of Tom Bombadil.
@@DorkLords = also, Aragorn recited an incantation over the blade that struck Frodo.... Gandalf issued words of command (incantation?)... I'd imagine that releasing intent through vibration and frequency is the "magic" used most often for the more powerful acts. (Please forgive all these comments.... I lost my voice 38 years ago to cancer.... and I can get carried away "talking" when I get the opportunity.... lol)
@@tylerbarrett6652 No need to apologize! I love trading theories with obviously learned Tolkien enthusiasts such as yourself. 🙂
Great video Matt, very thorough material! Question, sorry if you've covered this in another video (still going through back log), but when you say the Valar, the gods, were to be convinced to come to east to help the elves fight Morgoth, what physical form do the gods take? Do the books ever explain it?
Justin Parker That's a great question! I was recently asked to do a video on the Valar, but I haven't done it, yet. Yes, the Silmarillion does give descriptions of the Valar. For example, here's a description of Tulkas, the Vala who defeated Melkor in hand to hand combat: “Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor. He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend.”
@@DorkLords Thanks! I wasn't aware of that passage. A video on them would be amazing, looking forward to it. I know Tolkien draws upon many mythologies but the Valar sound very Norse in appearance at least and are described like the poems would describe a Norse being. I know Melkor (or was it Sauron?) was locked in his physical form, so were the Valor not? Such that when they were west in their lands they wouldn't be physical and would only take form when they come to ME to help? Sorry I think about logistical things like this probably more than the author intends the reader to.
Justin Parker Well observed! Tolkien definitely had a Norse influence on his mythology. And yes, Melkor loses the power to change physical shape - meaning the Valar can change. Here's a great description of Melkor changing shape to challenge the Valar (before he lost the ability: "His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.”
Hey been watching your Lord of the rings/middleearth video's for the last few days have too say thier great i am fascinated by the lore that goes with it and the mind that can create such depth pretty much the same as george lucus in Star wars, i really like the video's on the years of trees and the frist age, , is thier any info on what happened to the evles who stayed at Cuiviénen did anyone ever travel their , blue wizaards,gandalf, aragon etc and the Vanyar / Ingwë, deals at the place of tranquility and bit of a long short is thier like history of valanor once the noldor left middle earth , as i know Olwë is at Alqualondë but just wonderng if thier is any info on the history of valanor? any way awesome stuff
Thanks so much for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying the videos. That's a great topic idea - I've added "the history of Valinor after the Noldor left" to my list. There is such info about Valinor - from Earnedil's arrival, to the decision to fight the War of Wrath, to dealings with Numenor and its downfall, to the decision to send the emissaries in the 3rd age, etc.
At Aragorn coronation in the movie (after Aragorn kissed Arwen) , there is 8 pointed star banner on sight possibly brought by one of Elrond company ; is that Maglor banner or star of Elendil banner?
Is it written in the book , that Elrond bring any banner to that event?
Great observation! I checked out the scene and saw the banner. There is a reference to a silver banner in the book (quote below). I think in this case, the 8 pointed star is a symbol of the House of Elrond - referencing the Star of Earendil (his father). I've mainly seen the star of earendil with 6 points, but i've also seen depictions with 8. Here's the quote:
“First rode Elrohir and Elladan with a banner of silver, and then came Glorfindel and Erestor and all the household of Rivendell, and after them came the Lady Galadriel and Celeborn, Lord of Lothlórien, riding upon white steeds and with them many fair folk of their land, grey-cloaked with white gems in their hair; and last came Master Elrond, mighty among Elves and Men, bearing the sceptre of Annúminas, and beside him upon a grey palfrey rode Arwen his daughter, Evenstar of her people."
@@DorkLords well understood . Thank you Dork Lord
All I took away from this is that Aragorn and Arwen are great-great-great...cousins.
Martí Capdevila Giavotto Yep... cousins.
I have a hard time of thinking Elrond as an Half-elf in Peter Jackon's adaptation, since he is played Hugo Weaving, who looks more like he is playing a Vulcan from Star Trek than a Half-elf, with his arched eyebrows, pointy ears and stern face.
Good point - there is a very Vulcan-like aspect to his performance.
Sorry this isn’t directly related to the video but would you be able to explain how Legolas has blonde hair? No know blonde is a rare color of the vanyar bloodline but how does Legolas get it all the way in the third age? His dad had silver hair if I remember right and I believe he was Sindarin.... or was was he silven those always trip me up. HELP ME!!
Great question! You're right about the rarity of blonde haired elves. And I don't think Tolkien ever definitively states Legolas' hair color. However, in The Hobbit, Tolkien describes Thranduil this way: “...and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair."
So, it is possible that Legolas was in fact a blonde.
@@DorkLords he was emo. I bet he dyed it purple. This generation of elves don’t know how easy they got it!!
Bottle-blonde Legolas.
@@DorkLords that’s my new band name. Called it
Maglor.
Keyboard Dancers Timely suggestion! He's been coming up a lot in my Maedhros videos. I'm recording part 2 today - and Maglor features heavily.
@@DorkLords I do hope you'll be musing on the likely ultimate fate of Maglor who we see wandering off on his own after the end of the War of Wrath. (Perhaps you do so in the Silmarils episode...). I'm also looking forward to your Maedhros episode and hope to see you compare the deaths of Maedhros and Gollum.
Keyboard Dancers Thou art psychic! I have both of those topics written in my notes.