Can YOU Tell Filed vs Unfiled Reeds apart?
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- Опубликовано: 23 мар 2024
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In this week's lesson I'll be conducting the ultimate unfiled vs filed reed test to see if there really is any difference. Can I tell the difference when playing or when listening? Can YOU tell the difference in the sound?
🎬 Synth Reeds Test video
• Synthetic Sax Reeds Te...
Chapters
00:25 What is Filed Anyway?
03:14 The Test
06:33 The Set Up
10:14 The Results
10:17 Reed #1
10:25 Reed #2
10:32 Reed #3
10:39 Reed #4
10:47 Reed #5
10:55 Reed #6
11:03 Reed #7
11:10 Reed #8
11:18 Reed #9
11:25 Reed #10
11:32 My Results
13:20 The Conclusion
14:56 Before You Go
15:46 End Music & Bloopers
Get Your Sax Together is a fun and informative channel, packed with free online saxophone lessons. My name’s Jamie Anderson and I’ve been a pro saxophonist since 1996. I release new content every Sunday at 7am UK so you can Sax Up Your Sunday! Subscribe and 🔔 click the bell icon (set to ALL) to get notified when new content is released. Thanks for watching! Jamie 🎷
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7 of 10 for me. You deserve a 10 for making this test. As a result I will continue using filed reeds. And unfiled!
Thanks
@GetYourSaxTogether
Outstanding scientific method and single blind research method Mr Anderson! Your work/protocols for this video really spoke to my Ph.D. (research, performance) in Music Composition & Theory,
New York University.
Thank you for this amazing and inspiring video.
We needed this !
Your fan,
Dr D
Thanks!
Interesting test! I like your final conclusion!
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Got also 8 out 10 correct, mixed up no. 4 and 10! But the difference is very subtle imho!
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There is a difference to me in how the reeds feel and respond filed vs unfiled. I don’t worry about what the companies claim they will sound like, I appreciate tge options to find the best fit for a given mpc. If it feels good, I’ll be able to get the sound I’m after on either cut.
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I'm with Jack Tyler... any perceived difference is too insignificant to matter. The mouthpiece matters more than the reed. I just purchased a Rascher mouthpiece for my soprano and it sounds completely different from my Dukoff 7 (bright and powerful) and a Riffault France R4 (plays smooth, fat, and warm). Yet my wife just cares if she likes the tune I'm playing and cares little about the color of the tone! Just yesterday one of my students still struggles with palm key pitches. At the end of the lesson, I took his horn with my mouthpiece and played them and chromatic notes up to an octave higher to exemplify that it's the player, not the equipment that controls the sound. While it's fun to have these discussions, my limited physics and statistics background steers me towards the player being the most significant factor. So, if you don't like your sound, it may just be the one in the mirror that needs to adapt.
Thanks for the comment
nah it matters!!! Music is all about subtlety! Thats like saying 5 or 6 notes out of tune isnt a big deal...it is
Covering reeds is going to affect the response of the reeds...but i guess you did it to all the reeds so they are all affected in the same way
It was obvious to me lol🤷🏾♂️
@@mambojazz1 hang on I didn’t cover them up hence I was playing them obvs. 🤣
7/10 right for me.
Very interesting test, thank you! Being a professional researcher, I much appreciated your blind test approach, such that you prevented yourself from unconsciously modifying your embouchure based on the reed type (which could have easily produced a brighter or darker sound).
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Thank you, Mr Anderson.
You're welcome!
your main conclusion was spot on , in sound and feel both, there's less variation between cuts and the actual reed.. that has been my conclusion over the years.
Also, it IS different when playing and listening, rather than just critically listening.
Thanks
Some Notes to the experiment and my experience in the end:
-the claim, that the reed only vibrates up to the point where the curve of the mouthpiece ends, is absurd.
a) all the fibres stretches also back and fourth when the reed goes up and down.
b) vibrations are way more complex than 1 dimension.
c) you could easy make an experiment with a long object, clamp it at a fix point, hit only one end and observe the other
d) if a reed only vibrates on the front ligatures would make no differences when clamped hard enough.
-I never had a box of cane reeds where every reed sound the same. They naturally have already a variety in strength of 0,5 (or with select jazz of 0.33). If you work on those reeds, there would even be more variation besides the natural.
So I would have assumed a lot of differences, but a tendency in one direction is telling. So 80% is actually quite obvious. With all the problems of cane reeds, 100% can't be expected.
Although 10 is a very small sample size, I think the set up of the experiment is as good as it can get.
-with the combined test with a chance of 50% to get a right answer, 5 would not be the average on having it correct. It's 2,5, so getting 4 combined right is clearly over random average.
In my experience filed or unfiled is a small indicator if it is a better fit for jazz or classical mouthpieces. It has not much to do with the material or shoulder, it's rather for what/who it was designed and with what mouthpieces it were designed. French/classical mouthpieces have in tendency a shorter facing and are often more played with an lower angle in the mouth and a classical embouchure.
So my experience, filed reeds in tendency worked better with french/Classical mouthpieces and vice versa.
So another experiment could have been, selecting 2 typical American Jazz mouthpieces and 2 more conservative french jazz mouthpieces (shorter face) and criss cross them with the 10 reeds and note where you think it worked better.
Another thing in my experience, every time you take material of the reed it gets lighter and therefore brighter.
Of course, when you have less material on the filed reeds it will sound brighter...
(That's why, filing and reedgeeking the reeds maybe not the best decision....)
Wow. Serious comment! 👌🏻
@@GetYourSaxTogether it was a good video and thoughtful test.
I also did a lot of product tests and some development.
I can hear differences in the clips but they are so subtle as to be "within the error bars." I doubt most audiences would notice the differences and I believe most players could change any of those reeds to sound like any of the others with voicing/embouchure alterations. I've played both filed and unfiled for years, I think the overall shape and cut of the reed makes much more of a difference!
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The reeds I thought sounded best were a complete mixture of filed & unfiled 🤯
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Just like most sax gear, I think how you feel physically and psychologically when playing it is where the difference is. I don’t think any listener can tell.
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which leggerio would you use in place of the addario 3m?
I think there is a strength comparison chart. Don't know off hand, sorry
this was very interesting for i just got my first filed reed
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In January 2023, I bought 5 boxes of Tenor unfiled #3 soft. All 25 reeds were gone in about 7 weeks! I was disappointed and upset that every single reed played great for about 1 to 2 hours, and that's all! Every reed turned into a "frown" (or rainbow) shape after only 2 hours of use!
Have you given them a break in period? Some reeds change during their first hours and sometimes need some "relax time" back in their reed guard.
@@TobiasLeonHaecker I only play sax for about 2 hours per day, but almost every day. They can relax for the other 22 hours every day. haha But, seriously, I have been playing sax about 40 years. The average playing time for one reed is 8 to 10 hours. That's why I was upset when those 25 reeds only lasted about 2 hours each!
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Like a scientist, awesome! Great work! I never have heard a difference in general between filed and unfiled reeds. Made the test on my mobile, only 4 right 😂!
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Interesting video. I ended up with 7 correct but also ended up with 6 filed and only 4 unfilled! To my ears the U's sounded softer than the F's but I totally agree with your final conclusion. Over any box of reeds, all will have slightly different characteristics.
Thanks for doing this..🙂🎷
I had the exact same results.
Thanks!
I wouldn’t have used the reed geek to alter the reeds if you were trying to genuinely test them. Yes, some reeds may have been duds, but are those inconsistencies possibly exacerbated by the filing? Also, you said you tried to get the reeds to sound approximately the same-that sort of defeats the purpose of the test…
So the only difference was the cut, trying to make every other variable as consistent as poss
@@GetYourSaxTogether I understand your intent, but absent any specialized measurement equipment to ensure they are all the same, in all likeliness, by subjectively removing material for each reed, you likely brightened each reed in various amounts, causing the sound profiles to converge a bit.
I got 4/10 correct by listening with headphones. My answers corresponded 7/10 to Jamie's play test. I agree with Jamie's conclusion: the reeds are different in brightness but it's not correlated with filed/unfiled we'd expect from the physics. No need to waste time on choosing filed/unfiled.
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I based my decision on the very first note, listening to the entire passage was TMI. I was wrong 3 out of 10; I wrongly selected #1=F, #8=F, #9=U. Very interesting shootout, but sadly, I'm not a sax player. I'm here to try to gleen anything I can to help me imitate sax parts on keys with my basement band...and I think sax is just cool! I've not yet found a sax player willing to waste time playing with us in the basement:( Cheers!
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I’ve been using select jazz reeds for a few decades now, 3S & 3M, I’ve used both types a lot and I will say that on average the unfiled reeds are a bit darker, and!!! I get differences in both types in each box. I still play both types, I like the consistency I get from these reeds and when playing a gig I pretty much sound the same with either type. And I got 5 out of 10 on the comparison correct.
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it's more of the feel for me, I really like how filed reeds feel for me. never found an unfiled reed that feels right for me unfortunately.
Cool, thanks 🙏🏻
With your best efforts to be unbiased and scientific and my best efforts to be attentive, I've concluded that playing filed versus unfiled reeds does not matter at all. My guesses resulted in a low in accuracy of 40%.
The player is the biggest variable, in my view. How do you ensure that your lip pressure and pressure points, breath speed and air composition (moisture etc.) is the same for each test?
I think all that matters is that a player uses the set-up they are most comfortable with. It's all subjective, from player, to horn, to listener, as far as I'm concerned.
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6/10 right for me on audio…
Really hard to tell any difference.
I think your final conclusion is spot on. That is; the difference reed to reed is bigger. I play this brand and some years ago I tried out a few of each and settled for the unfiled.( not a very scientific or big test) I also agree that they are quite consistent and playable, however I always end up ranking them and find 1 or 2 that I think play the best. I’m not a fan of rotating reeds..why not stick with the best you got?
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It's too late now, but it would also have been interesting if you had ranked the reeds "favourite" to "least favourite" before knowing which was which, to see whether this was biased towards one type or the other. (Also, as someone else has said, it's possible that in preparing the reeds with the reed geek you also reduced any variability in sound/response which may have been influenced by filing, or which might have shown that individual reed to reed variability is more significant than filing).
Although I think it's all pretty irrelevant - as you said at the start, there are very few reeds where you can get the exact same cut filed or unfiled. So if I'm choosing which brand/"model" of reed to use there are multiple variables at play (the particular cane/synthetic material being used, and cut, as well as filing) so I am assessing the mix of these and just picking the reed I like most - regardless of filing.
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I was at 8 out of 10. Another possible pairing; Vandoren Javas green box is unfiled and red box is filed.
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I've always thought that a filed reed will speak a bit easier on starting a low note (such as in a ballad) and I would remove bark from a unfilled reed if low notes were a little unresponsive.
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I missed 6-7 only. I also thought it was more of a players preference than sound preference . Resistance and strength for reed start and play ability? I use 3s unfiled. Great reeds!
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I thought 3, 4, 6, and 8 were filed. I wasn’t sure if you had 5 and 5 from the start. Your method was explained after playtest. I’ve gone through a lot of reeds. I feel filed reeds play easier on very low register especially on bari sax. I feel that the amount of material near tip makes a bigger difference (example vandoren green box vs. v16).
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Enjoyable video. Personally, it's not anything I worry about. I enjoy the variety of Rico Orange reeds so filed vs unfiled doesn't bother me.
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I got numbers 2,6,7, correct. Great experiment. I always thought it was just the cane. Like going to the lumber store and by boards. Some are just better than others LOL
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The unfilled #7, #8 stood out for me as a darker tone, and #9 following grated my hearing - could that be the so-called buzzy nature of filled ? 🤷🏻.
Jamie, I'd say, unintentionally, your results do confirm what every teacher of music says, "record yourself, then listen back to truly hear how you sound", as you did get more right when listening back to your own playing.
Even if not conclusive, it's good enough for me to use these tests to go for UNFILLED as the ones my senses gravitated towards. PS I didn't get all of them correct.
Oh, have you done a comparison test for Reed vs plastic?
Thanks for another great video.
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8/10, though i was very clueless on most of them
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Hi Jamie! Great test! 2, 5, 7, 9 and 10 = same category to me when listening in the car, if that counts. I thought they would be filled. If you get the results of many here and at ICM, then you have a good number for stats! If one can at least separate the category, that would be already very interesting, even if it is the wrong one. Also, if you test synthetic reeds (if such a thing as filled and unfilled exist in the synthetic reeds world), then you would isolate even more the "filled vs unfilled" variable.
Thanks!
Dear Jamey, I am big fan of your channel and of your "scientific" approach to several aspects of the saxophone . Just one comment on the interpretation of your results when you combine the playing and listening tests. In this case, the probability of getting them both right by chance is 25%, not 50% (it's like the probability of getting tails twice when throwing a coin). Therefore, your finding of 4 out of 10 is higher than what your would expect by chance only, and it is a further indication that an appreciable difference is present.
I did a random test and, scored 5.
@@bonsaiphil9924 50% of correct answers is the "expected result" for a single test (e.g. listening) with random answers. If you do two independent tests (playing and listening), the "expected" fraction of cases where both answers are correct is 25%. Of course, the results of a single experiment can be significantly different from these expected values.
🙏 Thanks
6 out of 10 correct. Not statistically significant but I thought the first two sounded very similar so that could have ended up as 8/10. I think there is a slight difference. Maybe.
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I got 4 correct 4-7 love the riff
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At first thought - before you got to any tests - if you look at a selection of reeds from the butt end they are not all an even curve or thickness. This could mean that the cut of the vamp may be (slightly) uneven towards the back allowing slightly more mass at the ligature end. If the purpose of filed reeds is to guarantee the reed profile is an accurate section of a circle then that should mean the cutting of the reed is more exact- ???
Great comment
And I been playing for almost 30 years lol
There you go!
This whole debate about filed and unfilled reeds, silver plate, lacquered, unlacquered.. from a LISTENER’S POV, I really don’t care and I would not know. I’m not gonna walk into a pub or a concert hall, and be able to tell what reed filed or unfiled, or what saxophone lacquered or plated or otherwise that the saxophonist on stage is using!
What I would only be able to tell is this - whether the saxophonist has a good tone, a great tone, or a shitty tone! That’s all!
These little differences would matter more to the player themselves because I do admit that the feels one gets from playing with different stuff would be more tangible because the player is in direct contact with these.
And as the saying goes - if it makes you feel better while playing then go ahead and get it! If it makes no difference for you, that’s fine too!
Fair enough! 🙏
@@GetYourSaxTogether lol! I just realized I might have come across like I was screaming hahaha! I was way too excited about this topic 🤣😂
I definitely prefer filed!! 😅😅
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I got 8/10 correct. I use unfiled reeds as a new sax player.
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I got 8/10 correct!
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6/10 for me . But , i think i agree with jack , its probably the difference in the reed i heard , not the cut . Thanks Jamie .
Cool. Maybe!
8 correct for me.
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8 correct for me
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OK, Sax Newbie here, so get our your salt. If you have high blood pressure and are on a salt free diet, perhaps you shouldn't read this.
I could sometimes tell a difference, or at least think there was a difference, though truthfully, to me, coming through the rather cheapish speakers on my PC, it was pretty subtle. But - here's something I've been checking out. Almost all my reeds, VanDoren, Rico, BetterSax, and Juno characteristically have symmetry issues. At the butt, one rail is thicker than the other, and they're unfiled.. So this would require a slightly different slope from the cut section to the tip in order to get both rails to end with the same thickness at the tip. Now, I only have a few examples of "filed" reeds, both VanDorens. At the boundary of the filed section, both rails are the same dimension. So the process of filing has corrected the seemingly inherent difference 'tween the rail thicknesses. So that means the slope of each rail, from the filed mark to the tip, can be the same for that reed. I'm talking less than 0.2 mm difference at the butt, so perhaps it's not enough to matter, but then again... perhaps this small difference matters more in the feel of the reed, the consistency of tone and the ease of play more than the sound.
Anyway, gotta get back to practicing. It's just like going to school again. Learn to reed right and a rhythmic tic.
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8/10 correct
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Hey I got 8 out of 10! I always thought filed ones had more "nasal" frequencies which I don't really like. Seems like that criterion actually did the trick for me to tell them apart 🤔
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Wouldn’t the way to do this test properly be to create reeds that are MUCH bigger where the reed connects to the table and is held down with the ligature?
If there is any noticeable difference, a person could say that added mass on the reed under the ligature can make a difference.
Online polls don’t really mean anything because the quality of the listener’s ear can’t be guaranteed. Then additionally you need somebody else to put the reed on for you so that it is a blind test. *Edit to add that after the test it was shown that it was indeed double blind*
Cool idea for the testing and video, but I think nobody is going to change their opinion or see actual evidence this way.
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Maybe testing reeds without using the reed Geek to adapt the reed would have provided a better control test!
Just trying to reduce any other variable other than the cut really
8/10 right, I stick to my opinion, there IS an audible difference.
Thanks 🙏🏻
but does it matter?
If I hear it then it does matter to me
@@bob_dubois 8/10 indicates that the different might be noticable. But also, since it wasnt 10/10 , that the difference was so small that it really doesnt matter.
I got the first 5 correct listening on laptop speakers, then suffered from sound saturation
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You can tell the difference between a Legere Signature Cut and the Legere American. I feel the American is superior
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I couldn’t tell any difference!
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I was 5 of 10 coin flip.. Study only works if completed for all filed or all unfiled as well for differences and consistency to see if each read set vaiation is major variable
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Got 6/10 but have been using Legere signature for a couple of years now so it was just guesswork really.
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I couldn't tell the difference between UF and F. All I noticed was that #1 and #6 maybe sounded a litlle bit more buzzy, but it was too marginal to be notable. In my view the difference would be where the cane is grown throughout the world, California, Argentina, Italy, France etc. (the cane density, moisture content, grain size and so on) and again, it is too marginal to be worthy of note. By the way, I store my reeds for years and am currently playing 2016 La Voz. Over the years the reeds take on a slightly different character from a playing point of view but soundwise it is again too marginal. Old dried out reeds buzz a bit more, which I like. Newer reeds can be a bit dull to start with. They all play in the end and I never discard reeds ... I just put them aside. I agree with Jack but will be more polite with the term codswallop! 🙂
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As much as I know in every box of reeds there are slight differences. So no wonder you felt a difference when playing, you always will. 🤷♀️
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Surely a sound test over a phone/iPad is a waste if time. The speakers on these devices aren’t accurate enough.
use ear phones then.
I don’t know if I can agree with this. Sure, the speakers on these devices aren’t Harmon Kardon or Bose or some other quality speaker but they definitely aren’t terrible, either. Superior enough to hear any differences on this test, though. I would think that consistency is key here. Since there is a difference between speakers you would want to listen to the entire test on one set of speakers and not be switching it up as you are listening.
I honestly didn’t hear much of a difference and concluded that any difference I could hear was probably variance between cane and not much more. Now it would be interesting if the test was done on synthetic reeds to remove this variance, but as far as I know there is no such thing as filed synthetic reeds.
I agree. The tiny difference is in the player's mind, not the audience's ears.
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8/10, I flipped no. 2 and 8…
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I had 5 correct
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You had more "inflections" on the filed reed examples.
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The tiny difference is in the player's perception of how the reed performs. I don't think the audience can hear any difference. If this was the point you were trying to make, I don't think you hit the mark. Good idea for a video, however.
Thanks
I got 9 right and 1 wrong
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6/10
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I've played both unfiled and filed. I find the filed more free blowing.
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5/10
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I got 8/10 but I agree it’s a negligible difference
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7 Correct. However, Do the test again and I'll bet it will be different results.
Maybe!
I tried to guess which ones are filed or unfiled while listening
F - Filed
U - Unfiled
1. F
2. U
3. U
4. U
5. F
6. U
7. U
8. F
9. F
10. F
I got mine the other way around 😂 basically I got it all wrong hahahahahhaaha
Still noticed a difference though!
6/10, which in no way proves I know what I'm talking about
Thanks 🙏🏻
Thanks for doing this! I scored 6/10 listening through my phone/earbud. I'm not a pro player but am a "gigging amateur" who plays for free.
As to filed/unfiled, I have tried the VanDoren Jazz Select Red and Green variants on a few different mouthpieces, and my only conclusion is that I want to play what feels/works better for me - the Greens (unfiled). Cheers!
Oh, a pet peeve: the name is pronounced "dahDAIRryoh", not "DEE-ah". You can hear Jim D'Addario himself say it at 1:07 in this 'factory tour' video: m.ruclips.net/video/OlVaT6tjSPQ/видео.html
Thanks!
I think it’s mostly marketing BS. I have played both filed and unfiled reeds and personally I find very little difference. But in my opinion reeds are too personal to the individual for my opinion to matter. My best advice to anyone is try a lot of different reeds and see what YOU like best and then stick with that. If you like unfiled and I like filed, it makes ZERO difference.
That's fair comment
My guess was:
1 U
2 U
3 F
4 F
5 U
6 F
7 U
8 F
9 F
10 U
I guess it's pretty close
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“Controversy”.
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I can't hear any difference. I put 10 pieces of paper in a hat (5 of each) tossed them around, pulled them out at random and scored 5?
Playing in a band, I'd be surprised if any listener could tell hear a difference: "I just love the sound of that filed reed on the tenor sax!"
Fair enough! 🙏
great test BUT pity that you disclosed the right answer before you got comments...
now the comments isnt worth much...
but: whatever if people may hear the difference or not, the difference is so small that it really doesnt matter.
Still interesting to see what others think
@@GetYourSaxTogether yes, the discussion is interesting, but from my experience these discussion are pften heavily biased...
Nope. I can' tell the difference so I don't even have to watch the entire video now. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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4/10.... Still not conclusive for me.
Fair enough! 🙏
WRONG😆 They are literally different🤣
Laugh it up fuzz ball.
@@GetYourSaxTogether Whats a fuzz ball?! Im agreeing with you even you yourself said they sound different and I agree🤣
Filed reeds. Yuk. The only ONE that I was happy with was Hemke. They re thin and have no warmth whatsoever. Yuk. They re not “dark”. Just stuffy and unfocused and actually bright in a strident way. Yuk. Yuk.
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And that’s just a start!!!!
There is zero difference between the two.
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Mmmm.... Not enough tests to be statistically meaningful mate.
Please repeat it 10 times ;-)
That would be a fun RUclips video. 100 tests! 🤣
I've had to listen to hundreds of hours of sax players talking about reeds in real life and now this is being recomended in my feed. Enough already!
🤷♀️ Lots of other vids...
I have had enough nonsense talk of trumpet players talking about silly buzzing and leadpipes enough already...see how that makes you sound?!🤣 Whats the lesson?!🤣
I got 8 out of 10 as well.
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It might be coincidence, but i have controlled my reeds after seeing your video and 9 of 10 are unfilled........?🤔🪵🪚🪓Marca,Rigotti, F.Hemke, Better Sax,
Cool