Glenn DID NOT say that volume doesn't matter that much... Contrary to the title and T&C guy. What Glenn said was you can't specify desired dimensions/shape AND volume separately... They are related. Volume is indeed important...
Volume is needed to determine how many liters can float a person for their height & weight for sure. But if you are getting a specific model of surfboard for its performance characteristics then you can either size it to a specific volume if you prefer or dimensions but not both. If you want a total custom board made to specific dimensions and a volume that can be done, but it wont be a Glenn Pang model. What we find is that surfers want a specific model but at volumes that can't be accommodated unless a design change is made and that would inherently no longer make it the model. Hope this helps to clarify 🙂
I heard an interview recently with a successful RUclipsr... she said YT encourages the use of what essentially amounts to click-bait titles. I'm finding it very frustrating. For some of the channels I watch, the poster says stuff like "now that I have your attention", or "I don't mean that literally"... they're apologising for what YT wants from them to get more views. 😕🤷♂️
This is the best explanation I’ve seen for changing dimensions on a surfboard. I’ve surfed a lot in the last 10 years (tried to work it out over 30+ different boards) but I still haven’t made sense of it in my head even after speaking to all the experts I’ve met along the way.
I learned something from surfing standing river waves where you can just jump into the wave already standing. My favorite board has been a thin, wide 4'10" with a squash tail and 5 boxes so it can be a twinzer, a regular tri, or a twinzer + a little trailer. I'm 57, 5'9" and 220 or so, ex OC6 racer, long time barbell trainer, long torso, barrel chest. Obviously I couldn't paddle that board into anything! Basically that board is everything I need to ride, without the foam i need to paddle in. The same applies to the little tow-in boards that work fine in huge surf, as long as you have a little help from a big ski. The shape and thickness of a regular paddle-in surfboard has to be a balance between getting into waves, and performing once you pop up. Especially with a legend like GP as a shaper, I think I would tell him what I want the board to do, and then STFU. Maybe for another order, I might say, I want a board like that one but with a slightly different tail. But other than that, the best thing I could do would be to tell the shaper what I want the board for, then STFU and go home. It's not that volume doesn't matter. It's that surfers, unless they're shapers or pros who are guinea pigs for designs and get handed piles of boards to try, don't know WTF we really want or need. So we need to have some humility and STFU. Let the artist do his job. 🙂
I'm 6'4 230 65yrs old Started riding a monster at 60. Board 8"10 4" thick pulled in nose tail quad. What a difference the board made flys turns. Starter riding longboards at at 55 along with my short boards 7.0 7.6 Now i exclusively ride my monsta. Catch wave pumping turing so different than longboard. Old man hotdog model 😊
When I order a board, I always tell the shaper to make the board feel thin, but be on the thicker side, and to keep it so the width makes it loose but is also has a really stable feeling, like the board is wide... I usually include, that I want the board to feel really light, but be strong with a big stringer and extra glass, but I mostly just listen to the shaper and what he suggests
Great video in the last 12 months ive ridden boards from 29 litres all the way to 40l but and they all worked for the purpose they were designed for. Then you throw in rocker and you can get a 34l board that paddles better than a 40l board.
At around seven minutes, he says he would go wider and thicker for a heavier surfer of the same height. Isn’t that just the same as increasing volume? Doing that will definitely add volume. Seems like he’s splitting hairs.
What Glenn is specifically referring to is that surfers ask for a specific model of board but then ask for specific dimensions with a specific volume. It can't be done. So yes, increasing a model of surfboards width & thickness will increase the volume and thats ok. Its when a surfer says "I want this board thicker and wider AND I want this volume with it." It can't happen.
in my experience w having a few boards RE-shaped for custom I just increased thickness maybe 1/4" to 2/3" max there by not really effecting the overall shape. has been great for my size.
I have a swear jar in my workshop. The only word that customers have to pay for is ''volume''! I made a buddy of mine who's a bit of a heavier build a 6'2 quad with a pretty wide square tail as he kept sinking narrower tails on his pop up and killing all his speed by the time he got to his feet. The board works well for him with that wide tail. A few weeks late another buddy asked if I could make the same board for him but with less volume. I told him ''no worries, I'll just shape it exactly the same but I'll give it a fish tail and then it'll have less volume as most of the tail foam will be removed''. He didn't want that, obviously, but he couldn't tell me where he wanted the volume removed from. Not the tail, so then what, the centre point, the chest, the nose, the width, the length?! In the end, we agreed that instead of shaping it at 2 3/4'' I'd shape it at 2 1/2'' at the same width and in this conversation the lesson was learn't that thickness, width and length are more important and accurate specifications that ''volume'', especially if you have no clue where you want volume placed or taken away from.
And even then, most surfers might think we want more or less volume here or there, but really we have no idea how that would actually work. At 57, I have gained a fair bit of knowledge and skill in different areas. But the most important thing I've gained, is knowing what I don't know, and respecting the knowledge and skills of other people like shapers. STFU is an important skill, too. In some cases, I'll get the best results if I just stay out of the way.
Volume definitely matters to an extent. It's a handy reference point to work around regarding what works for you regarding your weight, ability etc. Volume of course is always determined by the dimensions of a board, which may not be obvious to everybody.
if anyone doesn’t get this, any board at any (specific) dimensions is essentially a piece of ‘space’. ie you can not have 3ftx3ftx3ft cube which does not have a volume of 9 cubic ft. its just with surfboards we measure the volume in litres instead of cubic feet/inches which confuses things.
I'm a bit confused. I understand that he's saying that if you change a specific model to much with volume and or dimensions then it's no longer that model... I get that but why not just shape the board based on the customers needs and not be beholden to one particular model? I'm assuming that he's talking about that type of customer that's hell bent on making so many changes to a model but still expects it to surf the same. Why not just do a custom board with the customers input along with the shapers knowledge and wisdom? A side note... I also don't understand why every modern short board under 6 ft has to be a potato chip with under 30 of volume. The best board I've ever had was when I was a kid. I don't remember the exact #'s but it was 5'4, over 19" wide, squash tail thruster, moderate to low rocker... it was really thick though, it had to be over 40 liters and it ripped. I surfed that thing in 2 ft slop to double overhead. It wasn't sluggish at all. You could snap turns or do big drawn out round houses. It was super easy to paddle. I actually surfed it well into my early 20's and if I still had it I'd probably still be surfing it. It didn't lack "performance". Great video
Such a great video. I remember when volume first came out as a major factor for surfboard, manufactures, and everybody that didn’t know what they were talking about only would look at volume. Trust the shaper and their model.
Great point Scott! We greatly appreciate your feedback as this helps us determine new content to create! This is a wonderful topic that we have noted and will be looking into creating a video of. In the meantime, we have another Glenn Pang video on rocker coming out soon! Make sure you've subscribed and hit the notification bell so you don't miss out!
Let`s say it's not impossible to have a 5`10" x 18 1/4" x 2 1/4" with 30L, but the shape won't be as a shortboard used by kelly (something like a mini sim). Lots of surfers know the volume they need, the dimensions and the shape (coz they already tried something similar). Of course a person which has surfed for week or days, defo don't know nothing about these things, Actually new surfers know just about dimensions, not even the shape matters for them. Volume is more for the surfers with lots of boards surfed. When I shape a board (not a shaper, I just make my own boards), I know exactly dimensions, shape and volume. Using boardcad, I can make myself an idea of: what blank I need, how much rocker, how much I have to skin the blank in diffrent areas, etc etc.
you are doing a diservice to volumes. they are super important and yo even say it between the lines... i always use true form scaling to the approximate volume I need.... thats the best advise...
These videos are fantastic. Much thanks to the crew, writers and both on-camera guys (Glenn and ?). I'm learning so much and will go to T&C for my next custom board. Love that you're giving so much valuable info!
I made a one inch thick longboard 3 years ago, it glides/rides like any other longboard, probably more controllable, and you can duckdive it, only negative effect is paddling speed.
good vid! the surfers performance factors in too', so many people think' they can shred', on the pros', skinny' and very narrow' nosed ', board not'! peace
Thought it was interesting to comments on the surfers weight distribution. I have big legs and butt and average upper body. Thought that would play a part in where the volume should be, but good to hear its just the overall weight that matters. Great explanation. Thanks
I'm 69 years old and we never thought about volume (unless it was beer). It was always dimensions. Length, width, thickness and other variables. Volume and liters was never in our vocabulary because all of our boards were hand shaped. The terms volume and liters came into play when boards became pop out's (not 100% hand shaped). A lot of boards are complete pop outs from start to finish now. If you asked a shaper in the 80's or earlier about volume and liters, they would say WTF are you talking about? This is not science class...
used to own a glenn pang shaped t&c from the 1980's. one of the best 2 boards ever owned. the other one was a similar 6'8 shaped by the other glenn,..... minami. does t&c do vacuum bag eps boards? if so what type of stringer if any? thanks
He's not saying volume doesn't matter .. he's saying you can't demand specific volume AND specific dimensions, just basic logic right? Wave conditions is such a huge factor too, I find funny when people care so much about dimensions or volume. Are we talking overhead winter waves? Small summer waves?
So if I want an an everyday performance groveler (like the SINR) and I just want it to catch waves and paddle easier (for more of a beginner surfer) while having close to the same maneuverability-which of the 3 measurements (length, width, thickness) would I want more of? Can this be achieved with different bottom contours (like a V that pokes out further than normal if the board is thicker and wider)? Or is there really no right answer?
Great question! It would be a blend of factors that you have mentioned. But if you are looking for a specific model that you would like customized to your style of surfing, we highly encourage you to contact our surfboard factory manager Vance! He is a legend at getting the right board in the right surfers hands! You can reach him at (808) 621-5000 Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST or you can email him at TCBoards@TCSurf.com.
Totally agree with Master Pang...I always thought the whole focus on Volume was total BS. Because I am a tall thin guy with long legs and if someone is short and chubby and wide with short legs but if we same weight, we are definitely not going to ride the same boards at all!
Volume is important to me because I'm tall and I have heavy bones and I need a board that floats me well. I need to be able to get out into the line up quickly and out-hustle other people for waves.
Normally on a performance board, I'll be around 36L (with more rocker and narrow boards) but I'll float the same with a fish board with only 32L. That make me think that volume distribution it's so important, it depends on the board the volume that will suits you! I'm 90kg and 1.79m
Thanks guys, it is the best video i saw on the volume topic that concerns especially people with uncommon measures like me :) for a skinny tall guy (6'0, 135 lbs) how do you think i can keep a similar surf experience as intended, by ordering stock dimensions, just 2-3 sizes smaller (by height) or this will be too far off and i better order custom thinner board at my normal height?
We recommend talking to our factory manager Vance at our surfboard factory! He will help get you the best board for your height, weight, and riding style. Factory is open Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST. You can call Vance at (808) 621-5000 or email him at tcboards@tcsurf.com 🤙🏼
I'm a beginner surfer. Surfing a wave bandit 8 foot. I've gotten pretty good because I've been bodyboarding since the early 90's. What board should I get to transition to next? I"m 6 foot 185 lbs.
Aloha Alex! Excellent question! Our surfboard factory manager Vance is a master at helping people at determining the perfect board based on their experience, height/weight, & goals with surfing. Give him a call today at (808) 621-5000 or email him at TCboards@TCsurf.com. He's at the factory Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST.
Remember also, the better you are, the less volume comes into play, I'm a bigger guy, got wrapped up in the volume thing, found out .. as long as I can surf it, it'll work, at 6ft i use a 6"4 or 6ft for storms, but i was going 6'8" 7 ft .. and wasn't necessary even with a few pounds with age ...
I don't understand how a proportional increase can preserve the pure form and performance capabilities of a shape. Wouldn't proportionally stretching a 5'7 HPSB to 6'6 make it perform completely differently? Unless the wave and the rider were proportioned at the same scale? This would be like expecting a 9 inch wide skateboard proportionally increased from 8.25 inch to be as easy to flip and rotate as the original. There must be pretty clear boundaries to this, and I suspect they are narrower than anticipated.
Lets say you have a 5' 5" HRT model. You likely wont catch a double overhead wave with that board. But you love the speed, lift, and turning ability of the board. So you get it sized up to a 6' 6" for example. Now you have the same performance characteristics and can catch bigger heavier surf and you will still have that speed, lift & turning ability that you liked because its the same model. Yes it will perform slightly different because its bigger and there is more board to move around but the performance characteristics are all still there. We hope that helps to clarify 🙂
Hey Paul! Give our surfboard factory manager a call! His name is Vance and hes super knowledgable about getting the right board in the right surfers hands! You can call him at (808) 621-5000 Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST or you can email him at TCboards@TCsurf.com
yeah this could be explained better. Totally understand giving dimension 'or' volume. But volume matters a great deal due to the float it provides which also could be calculated by giving dimensions instead. for instance, when I used to surf as a 6' 185 lbs in california, I needed 2.5 in the middle of a 6'4 thruster thumb tail, that tapered down to a round rail not pinched and 19.5 wide, that was the best performing short board dimensions for me not sure the equaivalent liters but knew the dimensions for weight. if I tried to get less then 2.5 in the middle and more boxed rails at that same length or narrower, I could not catch the waves where I wanted to catch them, was late, sat up on it neam airpits, when boards was level.
How does adjusting a models length affect the rocker? Does it just go up proportionately? For example: If you had a 5'6" with 2.5" tail rocker and 5" nose rocker, would that model change if you proportionally stretched the model out to a 6'2"?
O.k. Exactly how do you determine the 'volume'? Is it all in a scanned computer program or do you sink the board in a pool and measure the raise of the displaced water level at the edge of pool. Also why is it in litres and not fluid ounces. Was this 'volume' measurement developed in Australia. Please reply.
There are different ways to measure volume, although we measure it via a computer program. And thats an excellent question about the units. Not sure haha.
Many brands give to the customers some comparison table which says “for X weight rider, you should get Y volume board with Z skill level”. Do you think this is not a way to use such tables to find the right volume?
Could not agree more.. I’m old but still get plenty of waves. Particular about outside shape but always order thinner boards.. they definitely feel more nimble once moving which , I believe is where the fun happens..& for me it is about the fun.. great video
I didn’t get the sense that he’s saying Volume doesn’t matter. He’s saying be careful about the starting point as you cannot force an equation. Start with dimensions and you’ll eventually arrive at the volume. Or start with Volume and he can work it the other way, fleshing out the shape and dimensions to achieve said volume.
Yes & no. Glenn just feels that surfers put too much emphasis on volume and also try to get boards shaped to specific dimensions and volumes. His theory is get the model you want, size it to the dimensions you need, and the volume you get is the volume you get. Thus making volume not the most important thing when buying a surfboard.
I have two boards same length One is thicker, wider and more foam but the other board that is thinner narrower and less width paddles way faster. More foam doesnt generally mean better or easier to paddle, its the outline, rails and rocker. Thanks for a great video
I created a table for Firewire of a couple of pro surfers I know and surface area of the hydroplaning surface of their boards. I scaled the dims for a range of body weights because all waves move at the same speed for everyone (note: I assumed Reynolds numbers would be close enough) . They didn't like what I showed them because their advice is based on volume. You are right, volume isn't the critical measure it's hydroplaning surface area. There is a but because rocker effects effective hydroplaning area. Outline and volume effect pre hydroplaning drag and for longboards, Reynolds number is a factor...... Good discussion, thanks for posting it. PS Stating you have practiced something for a long time is just arguing status. Pride shouldn't be an argument winner. Just because I'm older than Glenn doesn't mean my facts make a better case.
So how does it apply to groms? My son rides a 4’6” board and weights 54lbs but he can’t effectively duck dive that board at its current volume of 15L. How does volume NOT effect the ability to duck dive?
I don’t think in any way, it’s a controversial opinion to say that you can’t have the exact dimensions you want and volume unless you did the calculations beforehand. Obviously, the volume is going to have to come from somewhere whether it’s adding to the thickness, the width or whatever you decide to do. I get the point that you guys are making. But I think anyone that said I want this exact dimension, and this liters is at a misunderstanding about how it works.
I grabbed a G. Pang with about 6" of the nose broken off and took it out. Absolutely ripped. I ended up just patching the end off, it was ugly as hell but the thing worked amazing.
I think saying volume doesn't matter is a little bit unfair. I think it's a useful rough guideline because for a lot of us it's difficult to know exactly what length/width/thickness we need, especially if you're getting a quiver for different waves/conditions. If you know you usually ride 28-32 liters, then you can use that as a guideline and fine tune from there depending on the model and specific waves you want to surf.
Rocker will affect how a board paddles as much as volume too and once you are up and planning, volume doesnt matter at all. I made a HPSB that was 1.25” thick with standard rails (as close as i could get them) and once up and riding, you would never know it wasnt a normal thickness. Very responsive too.
@@TandCSurf Try it!! Take a known good shape, and only modify it to be 1.25 thick, keep the tail and nose thickness the same, and keep the rails as ''normal'' as possible. use 2 5-ply stringers spaced a good few inches apart and a standard 4s+4s/4s glass job and give it to an advanced surfer who doesn't need paddling volume. The responsiveness is worth the experiment!!! Where is board design going to go from here?
I did a similar thing ….. super thin 1.75” for my body weight (100kg). But the board was wide …. 22.5”. It was awful to paddle but caught waves easily🤷
(X1-X0)•(Y1-Y0)•(Z1-Z0) = V That being said you can leave a lot of foam under the front foot and thins out towards the rails nose and tail and get an exceptionally high performance board that paddles well catches waves well and is fast down the line and turns on a dime in the pocket. But when you make your own boards it defeats the purpose because I think this is talking about asking for a model and wanting different volumes while not wanting to change any dimensions. So yes you have to change x,y, or z.
My theory is. If I sit on a board and my nipples are below the surface of the water than it's too small at 52yrs old. If i sit right at or inch above my nipples its a Hi performance or perfect for head high waves. The higher I sit the bigger/more volume and better I love for bigger or slower waves.
It's all about trim speed . Too much foam on a sizable , powerful , and fast wave is not good . If you are too high on the water , you won't have of the board ; Most exp. Surfers know this. When surfing the smallest of waves rideable you need more volume and less rocker.
When it comes to paddling, float is subordinate to wetted surface area,. So in slower and moderate conditions you'll want more width than thickness. But in faster conditions you'll want more thickness than width. Wide and straighter templates for more planning, narrow and curvier for more control. Same with the rocker. The right board for Hawaiian conditions is not going to look the same as the right board for San Diego conditions, and neither of those will be optimal for N Florida conditions. One size doesn't fit most, let alone all.
Some really good points. Most surfers are their own worst enemy when it comes to ordering custom boards. It’s best to know your true skill level, your age/fitness, the type of waves you will be riding, how you surf (front foot / back foot / vertical / down the line) and let the shaper suggest models that might work best for your situation.
Back 200s was all dimensions and it’s been like that for donkeys years and evryone was happy now with liters it confuses people I always liked when I surfed 6’6 x 2.5x 19.5
So putting some extra foam under the chest is going to make it have to much swing weight? I've built around 70 boards, so I understand the concept of swing weight....but how much does an extra liter of surfboard foam weigh?? Pretty sure if I taped it to the deck of your board, you wouldn't feel it at all. Yeah, a longboard is going to have more swing weight than a shortboard. The same shortboard with a little extra foam under the chest....I would rather have that than widening or lengthening the board
The only thing that has me triggered here is the click bait title of this video. He never claimed that volume didn't matter that much. He simply explained what a proportional change is, and by limiting a shaper to specific dims and a specific volume, you are forcing them to change the model. I am a surfer/shaper who only rides my own boards and this experience has convinced me that volume matters more than people think, and that 80% of surfers are grossly under volumed. So I thought I'd be having having to argue that this is more surf industry convincing average punters that they need to be riding boards with way too much rocker and way too little volume because that's what the pros ride, forgetting of course that we aren't pros. But instead I end up agreeing with everything that was said here because this video wasn't actually about volume at all.
Every single “pure form” of damn near every board is too wide for me with rails that need to be knifed out a bit…which always trips me out hoping for the best with an order
You should give our surfboard factory a call! (808) 621-5000 or you can email them at TCboards@TCsurf.com. Our factory manager Vance is super knowledgable about dialing in surfboards for customers and will absolutely help get you the perfect surfboard!
It's where the volume is for sure! Bottom line is forget about volume and to a certain extent MODELS. Think more about where you want to go with your surfing and then go with a real shaper. You can't get everything out of a single board design. This is my humble opinion.
This was so informative and easy to understand! Gonna treat myself to a custom board next season and will definitely refer back to this video!
So glad it helped! You deserve a custom board!
Glenn DID NOT say that volume doesn't matter that much... Contrary to the title and T&C guy. What Glenn said was you can't specify desired dimensions/shape AND volume separately... They are related. Volume is indeed important...
Volume is needed to determine how many liters can float a person for their height & weight for sure. But if you are getting a specific model of surfboard for its performance characteristics then you can either size it to a specific volume if you prefer or dimensions but not both. If you want a total custom board made to specific dimensions and a volume that can be done, but it wont be a Glenn Pang model. What we find is that surfers want a specific model but at volumes that can't be accommodated unless a design change is made and that would inherently no longer make it the model. Hope this helps to clarify 🙂
I heard an interview recently with a successful RUclipsr... she said YT encourages the use of what essentially amounts to click-bait titles. I'm finding it very frustrating. For some of the channels I watch, the poster says stuff like "now that I have your attention", or "I don't mean that literally"... they're apologising for what YT wants from them to get more views. 😕🤷♂️
Yes....especially for paddling and catching waves.
Volume doesn't matter when your young.
All good , I am 58 and 195 so in my case if I don’t get the volume I won’t catch enough waves. That is my 40 plus years experience riding waves.
🤙🏼
U might catch one per session in Fl. Gotta get on a longboard!!!
This is the best explanation I’ve seen for changing dimensions on a surfboard. I’ve surfed a lot in the last 10 years (tried to work it out over 30+ different boards) but I still haven’t made sense of it in my head even after speaking to all the experts I’ve met along the way.
Mahalo!
I learned something from surfing standing river waves where you can just jump into the wave already standing.
My favorite board has been a thin, wide 4'10" with a squash tail and 5 boxes so it can be a twinzer, a regular tri, or a twinzer + a little trailer.
I'm 57, 5'9" and 220 or so, ex OC6 racer, long time barbell trainer, long torso, barrel chest. Obviously I couldn't paddle that board into anything! Basically that board is everything I need to ride, without the foam i need to paddle in. The same applies to the little tow-in boards that work fine in huge surf, as long as you have a little help from a big ski.
The shape and thickness of a regular paddle-in surfboard has to be a balance between getting into waves, and performing once you pop up.
Especially with a legend like GP as a shaper, I think I would tell him what I want the board to do, and then STFU. Maybe for another order, I might say, I want a board like that one but with a slightly different tail.
But other than that, the best thing I could do would be to tell the shaper what I want the board for, then STFU and go home.
It's not that volume doesn't matter. It's that surfers, unless they're shapers or pros who are guinea pigs for designs and get handed piles of boards to try, don't know WTF we really want or need.
So we need to have some humility and STFU. Let the artist do his job. 🙂
🤙🏼
This has to be the best explanation of surfboard design VS volume.
Mahaloz!
Agreed 👌
Mahalo!@@tldrttyl
I'm 6'4 230 65yrs old
Started riding a monster at 60. Board 8"10 4" thick pulled in nose tail quad. What a difference the board made flys turns.
Starter riding longboards at at 55 along with my short boards 7.0 7.6
Now i exclusively ride my monsta. Catch wave pumping turing so different than longboard.
Old man hotdog model 😊
Yea you!
When I order a board, I always tell the shaper to make the board feel thin, but be on the thicker side, and to keep it so the width makes it loose but is also has a really stable feeling, like the board is wide... I usually include, that I want the board to feel really light, but be strong with a big stringer and extra glass, but I mostly just listen to the shaper and what he suggests
🤙🏼
Lawl
Great video in the last 12 months ive ridden boards from 29 litres all the way to 40l but and they all worked for the purpose they were designed for. Then you throw in rocker and you can get a 34l board that paddles better than a 40l board.
🤙🏼
T&C makes some of the dopest sticks in the game. LOVE their designs.
Yeww yewww! Mahalo Ben!
I'm so happy to see this video with clear explanation. The volume discussions made me crazy. Thank you for making this great video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
At around seven minutes, he says he would go wider and thicker for a heavier surfer of the same height. Isn’t that just the same as increasing volume? Doing that will definitely add volume. Seems like he’s splitting hairs.
What Glenn is specifically referring to is that surfers ask for a specific model of board but then ask for specific dimensions with a specific volume. It can't be done. So yes, increasing a model of surfboards width & thickness will increase the volume and thats ok. Its when a surfer says "I want this board thicker and wider AND I want this volume with it." It can't happen.
Planning area x force. Force being paddling strength and wave energy.
in my experience w having a few boards RE-shaped for custom I just increased thickness maybe 1/4" to 2/3" max there by not really effecting the overall shape. has been great for my size.
@@ocean4lifem8
I have a swear jar in my workshop. The only word that customers have to pay for is ''volume''!
I made a buddy of mine who's a bit of a heavier build a 6'2 quad with a pretty wide square tail as he kept sinking narrower tails on his pop up and killing all his speed by the time he got to his feet. The board works well for him with that wide tail.
A few weeks late another buddy asked if I could make the same board for him but with less volume. I told him ''no worries, I'll just shape it exactly the same but I'll give it a fish tail and then it'll have less volume as most of the tail foam will be removed''. He didn't want that, obviously, but he couldn't tell me where he wanted the volume removed from. Not the tail, so then what, the centre point, the chest, the nose, the width, the length?! In the end, we agreed that instead of shaping it at 2 3/4'' I'd shape it at 2 1/2'' at the same width and in this conversation the lesson was learn't that thickness, width and length are more important and accurate specifications that ''volume'', especially if you have no clue where you want volume placed or taken away from.
And even then, most surfers might think we want more or less volume here or there, but really we have no idea how that would actually work.
At 57, I have gained a fair bit of knowledge and skill in different areas. But the most important thing I've gained, is knowing what I don't know, and respecting the knowledge and skills of other people like shapers.
STFU is an important skill, too. In some cases, I'll get the best results if I just stay out of the way.
Thank you guys this was super informative and so cool to watch!! it helps with the visualization perfectly
Absolutely! Stoked you like the video!
This vid series by Glenn is gold.
Mahalo!
Volume definitely matters to an extent. It's a handy reference point to work around regarding what works for you regarding your weight, ability etc. Volume of course is always determined by the dimensions of a board, which may not be obvious to everybody.
Exactly! A reference point regarding your height and weight.
Finally !! A great video that simplifies Dims/ vol
Glad you liked it!
Most detailed video about this subject. Great job!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Super interesting and useful explanations about the scientific technicalities of board design!
Glad you liked it!
if anyone doesn’t get this, any board at any (specific) dimensions is essentially a piece of ‘space’. ie you can not have 3ftx3ftx3ft cube which does not have a volume of 9 cubic ft.
its just with surfboards we measure the volume in litres instead of cubic feet/inches which confuses things.
🤙🏼
Super helpful! Fun quick watch and great points addressed. Mahalo T&C!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Everyone wants the magic balance … comfortable padel and good performance hahaah congrats on the video by the way please release more !
Mahalo! Will Do!
I'm a bit confused. I understand that he's saying that if you change a specific model to much with volume and or dimensions then it's no longer that model... I get that but why not just shape the board based on the customers needs and not be beholden to one particular model? I'm assuming that he's talking about that type of customer that's hell bent on making so many changes to a model but still expects it to surf the same. Why not just do a custom board with the customers input along with the shapers knowledge and wisdom?
A side note... I also don't understand why every modern short board under 6 ft has to be a potato chip with under 30 of volume. The best board I've ever had was when I was a kid. I don't remember the exact #'s but it was 5'4, over 19" wide, squash tail thruster, moderate to low rocker... it was really thick though, it had to be over 40 liters and it ripped. I surfed that thing in 2 ft slop to double overhead. It wasn't sluggish at all. You could snap turns or do big drawn out round houses. It was super easy to paddle. I actually surfed it well into my early 20's and if I still had it I'd probably still be surfing it. It didn't lack "performance".
Great video
Yewww, sick video T&C! Cool hearing Glenn's perspective.
Mahalo!
4:17 CNC shapes.
Great vid. What Glenn says speaks volumes.
haha 🤣
Such a great video. I remember when volume first came out as a major factor for surfboard, manufactures, and everybody that didn’t know what they were talking about only would look at volume.
Trust the shaper and their model.
Thanks for sharing!
I would love to hear from Glenn on how rockers and concaves have changed over the years. Modern boards handle so much different.
Great point Scott! We greatly appreciate your feedback as this helps us determine new content to create! This is a wonderful topic that we have noted and will be looking into creating a video of. In the meantime, we have another Glenn Pang video on rocker coming out soon! Make sure you've subscribed and hit the notification bell so you don't miss out!
Thanks, that was so easy to understand, nice job guys
Our pleasure!
Let`s say it's not impossible to have a 5`10" x 18 1/4" x 2 1/4" with 30L, but the shape won't be as a shortboard used by kelly (something like a mini sim).
Lots of surfers know the volume they need, the dimensions and the shape (coz they already tried something similar). Of course a person which has surfed for week or days, defo don't know nothing about these things, Actually new surfers know just about dimensions, not even the shape matters for them. Volume is more for the surfers with lots of boards surfed.
When I shape a board (not a shaper, I just make my own boards), I know exactly dimensions, shape and volume. Using boardcad, I can make myself an idea of: what blank I need, how much rocker, how much I have to skin the blank in diffrent areas, etc etc.
🤙🏼
you are doing a diservice to volumes. they are super important and yo even say it between the lines...
i always use true form scaling to the approximate volume I need.... thats the best advise...
Thanks for the advice
These videos are fantastic. Much thanks to the crew, writers and both on-camera guys (Glenn and ?). I'm learning so much and will go to T&C for my next custom board. Love that you're giving so much valuable info!
Mahalo Philip! So stoked to hear you enjoyed the content and we look forward to getting you the best custom board you've ever had!!
Mahalo! @@TandCSurf
Trigger warning. Surfing is hard! 🤣👌 Excellent video. Mahalo
Mahalo!
I made a one inch thick longboard 3 years ago, it glides/rides like any other longboard, probably more controllable, and you can duckdive it, only negative effect is paddling speed.
🤙🏼
good vid! the surfers performance factors in too', so many people think' they can shred', on the pros', skinny' and very narrow' nosed ', board not'! peace
Mahalo!
Literally a perfect video for me! 6’7” 250lbs!
Yessah big man!
Thought it was interesting to comments on the surfers weight distribution. I have big legs and butt and average upper body. Thought that would play a part in where the volume should be, but good to hear its just the overall weight that matters. Great explanation. Thanks
🤙🏼
I'm 69 years old and we never thought about volume (unless it was beer). It was always dimensions. Length, width, thickness and other variables. Volume and liters was never in our vocabulary because all of our boards were hand shaped. The terms volume and liters came into play when boards became pop out's (not 100% hand shaped). A lot of boards are complete pop outs from start to finish now. If you asked a shaper in the 80's or earlier about volume and liters, they would say WTF are you talking about? This is not science class...
Very true
This channel is so valuable. Informative and appealing in presentation. Keep the good work up! Definitely will give one of your boards a go!
Much appreciated!
omg it happend! thx for this ! such a tired to hear about volume it important
You're welcome!!
loved this!
🤙🏼
used to own a glenn pang shaped t&c from the 1980's. one of the best 2 boards ever owned. the other one was a similar 6'8 shaped by the other glenn,..... minami. does t&c do vacuum bag eps boards? if so what type of stringer if any? thanks
He's not saying volume doesn't matter .. he's saying you can't demand specific volume AND specific dimensions, just basic logic right? Wave conditions is such a huge factor too, I find funny when people care so much about dimensions or volume. Are we talking overhead winter waves? Small summer waves?
A lot of surfers don't understand that concept of dimensions and volume unfortunately. You make some great points about wave conditions as well 🤙🏼
So if I want an an everyday performance groveler (like the SINR) and I just want it to catch waves and paddle easier (for more of a beginner surfer) while having close to the same maneuverability-which of the 3 measurements (length, width, thickness) would I want more of? Can this be achieved with different bottom contours (like a V that pokes out further than normal if the board is thicker and wider)? Or is there really no right answer?
Great question! It would be a blend of factors that you have mentioned. But if you are looking for a specific model that you would like customized to your style of surfing, we highly encourage you to contact our surfboard factory manager Vance! He is a legend at getting the right board in the right surfers hands! You can reach him at (808) 621-5000 Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST or you can email him at TCBoards@TCSurf.com.
Totally agree with Master Pang...I always thought the whole focus on Volume was total BS. Because I am a tall thin guy with long legs and if someone is short and chubby and wide with short legs but if we same weight, we are definitely not going to ride the same boards at all!
Volume is important to me because I'm tall and I have heavy bones and I need a board that floats me well. I need to be able to get out into the line up quickly and out-hustle other people for waves.
🤙🏼
Normally on a performance board, I'll be around 36L (with more rocker and narrow boards) but I'll float the same with a fish board with only 32L.
That make me think that volume distribution it's so important, it depends on the board the volume that will suits you!
I'm 90kg and 1.79m
🤙🏼
Thanks guys, it is the best video i saw on the volume topic that concerns especially people with uncommon measures like me :) for a skinny tall guy (6'0, 135 lbs) how do you think i can keep a similar surf experience as intended, by ordering stock dimensions, just 2-3 sizes smaller (by height) or this will be too far off and i better order custom thinner board at my normal height?
We recommend talking to our factory manager Vance at our surfboard factory! He will help get you the best board for your height, weight, and riding style. Factory is open Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST. You can call Vance at (808) 621-5000 or email him at tcboards@tcsurf.com 🤙🏼
I'm a beginner surfer. Surfing a wave bandit 8 foot. I've gotten pretty good because I've been bodyboarding since the early 90's. What board should I get to transition to next? I"m 6 foot 185 lbs.
Aloha Alex! Excellent question! Our surfboard factory manager Vance is a master at helping people at determining the perfect board based on their experience, height/weight, & goals with surfing. Give him a call today at (808) 621-5000 or email him at TCboards@TCsurf.com. He's at the factory Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST.
Remember also, the better you are, the less volume comes into play, I'm a bigger guy, got wrapped up in the volume thing, found out .. as long as I can surf it, it'll work, at 6ft i use a 6"4 or 6ft for storms, but i was going 6'8" 7 ft .. and wasn't necessary even with a few pounds with age ...
🤙🏼
I don't understand how a proportional increase can preserve the pure form and performance capabilities of a shape. Wouldn't proportionally stretching a 5'7 HPSB to 6'6 make it perform completely differently? Unless the wave and the rider were proportioned at the same scale? This would be like expecting a 9 inch wide skateboard proportionally increased from 8.25 inch to be as easy to flip and rotate as the original. There must be pretty clear boundaries to this, and I suspect they are narrower than anticipated.
Lets say you have a 5' 5" HRT model. You likely wont catch a double overhead wave with that board. But you love the speed, lift, and turning ability of the board. So you get it sized up to a 6' 6" for example. Now you have the same performance characteristics and can catch bigger heavier surf and you will still have that speed, lift & turning ability that you liked because its the same model. Yes it will perform slightly different because its bigger and there is more board to move around but the performance characteristics are all still there. We hope that helps to clarify 🙂
Great video guys, big question I am 5.8” x 87 kilos, average surfer what board size width and fitness would you recommend for me then? 🤷🏼♂️
Hey Paul! Give our surfboard factory manager a call! His name is Vance and hes super knowledgable about getting the right board in the right surfers hands! You can call him at (808) 621-5000 Mon-Fri 10am-5pm HST or you can email him at TCboards@TCsurf.com
yeah this could be explained better. Totally understand giving dimension 'or' volume. But volume matters a great deal due to the float it provides which also could be calculated by giving dimensions instead. for instance, when I used to surf as a 6' 185 lbs in california, I needed 2.5 in the middle of a 6'4 thruster thumb tail, that tapered down to a round rail not pinched and 19.5 wide, that was the best performing short board dimensions for me not sure the equaivalent liters but knew the dimensions for weight. if I tried to get less then 2.5 in the middle and more boxed rails at that same length or narrower, I could not catch the waves where I wanted to catch them, was late, sat up on it neam airpits, when boards was level.
How does adjusting a models length affect the rocker? Does it just go up proportionately? For example: If you had a 5'6" with 2.5" tail rocker and 5" nose rocker, would that model change if you proportionally stretched the model out to a 6'2"?
If its a proportional change then model will stay the same. The rocker may change in proportion with the board but its still the same model.
@@TandCSurf sorry I meant to say “would the rocker dimensions change if you stretched the model out to a 6’2””
Yes they would change but if its a proportional change the performance of the rocker will still perform as originally intended.
O.k. Exactly how do you determine the 'volume'? Is it all in a scanned computer program or do you sink the board in a pool and measure the raise of the displaced water level at the edge of pool. Also why is it in litres and not fluid ounces. Was this 'volume' measurement developed in Australia. Please reply.
There are different ways to measure volume, although we measure it via a computer program. And thats an excellent question about the units. Not sure haha.
Good work on the video. Keep it up! A lot of us older guys don't even think about volume, we still go by the dimensions.
Thanks! Will do!
Many brands give to the customers some comparison table which says “for X weight rider, you should get Y volume board with Z skill level”.
Do you think this is not a way to use such tables to find the right volume?
Thats definitely a helpful option for determining what size board will float someone
Could not agree more.. I’m old but still get plenty of waves. Particular about outside shape but always order thinner boards.. they definitely feel more nimble once moving which , I believe is where the fun happens..& for me it is about the fun.. great video
Mahalo!
I didn’t get the sense that he’s saying Volume doesn’t matter. He’s saying be careful about the starting point as you cannot force an equation. Start with dimensions and you’ll eventually arrive at the volume. Or start with Volume and he can work it the other way, fleshing out the shape and dimensions to achieve said volume.
Yes & no. Glenn just feels that surfers put too much emphasis on volume and also try to get boards shaped to specific dimensions and volumes. His theory is get the model you want, size it to the dimensions you need, and the volume you get is the volume you get. Thus making volume not the most important thing when buying a surfboard.
I have two boards same length
One is thicker, wider and more foam but the other board that is thinner narrower and less width paddles way faster.
More foam doesnt generally mean better or easier to paddle, its the outline, rails and rocker.
Thanks for a great video
Thanks for sharing!
Back in the 90s when i was a grom volume wasnt even talked about.. was all about the dims.
🤙🏼
You know Glenn I think the round pins work great in weaker waves plenty of advantages over a squash in the weaker stuff
🤙🏼
It would be nice to know how each surfboard brand determines their model's volume. I'm assuming it's computer generated.
Computer generated volume is definitely one way of determining a models volume. 🤙🏼
I created a table for Firewire of a couple of pro surfers I know and surface area of the hydroplaning surface of their boards. I scaled the dims for a range of body weights because all waves move at the same speed for everyone (note: I assumed Reynolds numbers would be close enough) . They didn't like what I showed them because their advice is based on volume.
You are right, volume isn't the critical measure it's hydroplaning surface area. There is a but because rocker effects effective hydroplaning area. Outline and volume effect pre hydroplaning drag and for longboards, Reynolds number is a factor......
Good discussion, thanks for posting it. PS Stating you have practiced something for a long time is just arguing status. Pride shouldn't be an argument winner. Just because I'm older than Glenn doesn't mean my facts make a better case.
So how does it apply to groms? My son rides a 4’6” board and weights 54lbs but he can’t effectively duck dive that board at its current volume of 15L. How does volume NOT effect the ability to duck dive?
Thanks great vid
Glad you enjoyed it
This is a real true about volume
🤙🏼
I don’t think in any way, it’s a controversial opinion to say that you can’t have the exact dimensions you want and volume unless you did the calculations beforehand. Obviously, the volume is going to have to come from somewhere whether it’s adding to the thickness, the width or whatever you decide to do. I get the point that you guys are making. But I think anyone that said I want this exact dimension, and this liters is at a misunderstanding about how it works.
Absolutely
A good shaper once said ‘I can make a sphere of any volume you like….it doesn’t mean it will surf’
Love that ^ 🤙🏼
I grabbed a G. Pang with about 6" of the nose broken off and took it out. Absolutely ripped. I ended up just patching the end off, it was ugly as hell but the thing worked amazing.
🤙🏼
I think saying volume doesn't matter is a little bit unfair. I think it's a useful rough guideline because for a lot of us it's difficult to know exactly what length/width/thickness we need, especially if you're getting a quiver for different waves/conditions. If you know you usually ride 28-32 liters, then you can use that as a guideline and fine tune from there depending on the model and specific waves you want to surf.
Rocker will affect how a board paddles as much as volume too and once you are up and planning, volume doesnt matter at all. I made a HPSB that was 1.25” thick with standard rails (as close as i could get them) and once up and riding, you would never know it wasnt a normal thickness. Very responsive too.
Sick!
@@TandCSurf Try it!! Take a known good shape, and only modify it to be 1.25 thick, keep the tail and nose thickness the same, and keep the rails as ''normal'' as possible. use 2 5-ply stringers spaced a good few inches apart and a standard 4s+4s/4s glass job and give it to an advanced surfer who doesn't need paddling volume. The responsiveness is worth the experiment!!! Where is board design going to go from here?
I did a similar thing ….. super thin 1.75” for my body weight (100kg). But the board was wide …. 22.5”. It was awful to paddle but caught waves easily🤷
(X1-X0)•(Y1-Y0)•(Z1-Z0) = V
That being said you can leave a lot of foam under the front foot and thins out towards the rails nose and tail and get an exceptionally high performance board that paddles well catches waves well and is fast down the line and turns on a dime in the pocket. But when you make your own boards it defeats the purpose because I think this is talking about asking for a model and wanting different volumes while not wanting to change any dimensions. So yes you have to change x,y, or z.
Mahalo for sharing!
Depends where the volume is ?
My theory is. If I sit on a board and my nipples are below the surface of the water than it's too small at 52yrs old. If i sit right at or inch above my nipples its a Hi performance or perfect for head high waves. The higher I sit the bigger/more volume and better I love for bigger or slower waves.
🤙🏼
@@TandCSurf with that being said I just bought the t&c sinner 5'9" model. Can't wait to try it. Chee!
It's all about trim speed . Too much foam on a sizable , powerful , and fast wave is not good . If you are too high on the water , you won't have of the board ; Most exp. Surfers know this. When surfing the smallest of waves rideable you need more volume and less rocker.
🤙🏼
Right on ! I hope the survivors of Maui figure things out . Don't sell your land to those greedy pigs .
Factors such as viscosity of water means any change in scale will change a board's character. Concepts such a 'model' are just that, a concept.
🤙🏼
When I see a guy with a soft top, I always ask him who shaped it. It’s a great conversational tool.
haha 🤣
Dome to flat Deck can adjust some volume
You're absolutely correct! We made a video talking about surfboard decks which you can check out here: ruclips.net/video/oWEj1dPe1mI/видео.html
When it comes to paddling, float is subordinate to wetted surface area,. So in slower and moderate conditions you'll want more width than thickness. But in faster conditions you'll want more thickness than width.
Wide and straighter templates for more planning, narrow and curvier for more control. Same with the rocker.
The right board for Hawaiian conditions is not going to look the same as the right board for San Diego conditions, and neither of those will be optimal for N Florida conditions. One size doesn't fit most, let alone all.
Yes! 🍻🤙🏻
🤙🏼
He wanted to say it
If it goes it goes
Yessah
If you ever get the chance to go to the T&C FACTORY.....GO!
Agreed!!
Some really good points. Most surfers are their own worst enemy when it comes to ordering custom boards. It’s best to know your true skill level, your age/fitness, the type of waves you will be riding, how you surf (front foot / back foot / vertical / down the line) and let the shaper suggest models that might work best for your situation.
Right on!
In shapers we trust!
Agreed!
Back 200s was all dimensions and it’s been like that for donkeys years and evryone was happy now with liters it confuses people I always liked when I surfed 6’6 x 2.5x 19.5
Sounds like speed vs. performance. If you want one, you have to sacrifice the other to a point per the design!
He's right, volume is a tool, but the tail is the most important and fins.
Thank god for saying the truth
🤙🏼
Surface area and rail thickness
🤙🏼
I don't even use this much science when I put together a downhill mountain bike.
NPJ doesn't know the volume of any of his boards, but surf one and you'll be blown away and not care one bit about vol.
Glass it yourself too☀️
So putting some extra foam under the chest is going to make it have to much swing weight? I've built around 70 boards, so I understand the concept of swing weight....but how much does an extra liter of surfboard foam weigh?? Pretty sure if I taped it to the deck of your board, you wouldn't feel it at all. Yeah, a longboard is going to have more swing weight than a shortboard. The same shortboard with a little extra foam under the chest....I would rather have that than widening or lengthening the board
The only thing that has me triggered here is the click bait title of this video. He never claimed that volume didn't matter that much. He simply explained what a proportional change is, and by limiting a shaper to specific dims and a specific volume, you are forcing them to change the model.
I am a surfer/shaper who only rides my own boards and this experience has convinced me that volume matters more than people think, and that 80% of surfers are grossly under volumed. So I thought I'd be having having to argue that this is more surf industry convincing average punters that they need to be riding boards with way too much rocker and way too little volume because that's what the pros ride, forgetting of course that we aren't pros. But instead I end up agreeing with everything that was said here because this video wasn't actually about volume at all.
Every single “pure form” of damn near every board is too wide for me with rails that need to be knifed out a bit…which always trips me out hoping for the best with an order
You should give our surfboard factory a call! (808) 621-5000 or you can email them at TCboards@TCsurf.com. Our factory manager Vance is super knowledgable about dialing in surfboards for customers and will absolutely help get you the perfect surfboard!
Volume is good for bigger guys who want a smaller board
Volume does matter when the waves are hopelessly gutless like where i live.
It's where the volume is for sure! Bottom line is forget about volume and to a certain extent MODELS. Think more about where you want to go with your surfing and then go with a real shaper. You can't get everything out of a single board design. This is my humble opinion.
Mahalo for sharing!