Perhaps he figured that the vastly numerically superior enemy would keep sending bigger and bigger waves of raiders against their fort, and soon annihilate them, unless they got a taste of sword and polearms as well as shot and cannon. At any rate, he knew the raiding party wasn't too large for them to handle, and that the natives' clubs and arrows, and total lack of armour and shields, placed them at a colossal disadvantage on the open field. Because he had spent some time with them. War is more than tactical concerns, and strategy often appears irrational to the impetuous i.e. Cunctator in his strategies against Hannibal.
@@filipselakovic5428 agree, and perhaps they didn’t think they would be able to outlast a siege. They needed to be able to keep their supply lines open.
Also very effective to point your pikes out (towards the ground apparently) so your soldiers get tired before even seeing the enemy. And they were apparently totally useless as the enemy ran right past them.
@@imperatorglaber1752 No european adventurers who first came into America were mostly veterans of the wars in Europe and of the most pragmatic, ,adventurous and daring stock. They'd adapt more quickly than everyone and display incredible cunning and determination in all situations. That scene is just complete bullshit.
@henryspadt6160 not even close my guy. There would barely be that many people defending a colony that small. Most likely, they would have just fired at the natives from behind their walls, then just wait them out until they lost hope.
@@michaelhanson8296 i saw a video of an arab soldier playing clash royale while defending a position, so there are some madlads out there that probably would
If you pick up a history book you would know the English almost never had enough food to outlast native Americans, and that it took repeating guns and other natives for Americans to fully have it too themselves
In the Army, they have a saying, 'RHIP! Rank Has Its Privilege's! That's why NOW rank is not shown to enemy! If they REALLY had any balls, be in front to show how brave you are!
Tactically brilliant move there to march out with pikes in a skirmish formation. The extra spacing between individual pikemen allowed the english to surprise the natives by scattering themselves into the field allowing everyone to fight hand to hand with knives and swords. I dont think battles devolved like this anyway. Soldiers were more likely to stay in a formation. Nobody fights individual battles like this. If the formation breaks and you are fighting alone then you are more likely to panic and die.
THE WHOLE GOD DAMN ADVANTAGE EUROPEAN TROOPS HAVE BESIDES TECHNOLOGY IS ORGANIZATION AND DISCIPLINE! WHY WOULD THEY LOSE FORMATION! ESPECIALLY PIKES! AHHHHHHHHH
Its hard to overstate the advantage that a swordsman in steel armor has over a naked spearman or axemen untile you have held a sword and realize how much more nimbly it moves than an axe, even in the hands of an ameteur.
The movie is actually not only inaccurate about leaving the fort, but also inaccurate about how they would fight when they did. When Jamestown militia exited the fort of Jamestown to attack natives there were no pikes involved whatsoever. Those guys with the shields in this scene are called targeteers (because the shield is called a target) and they would stand in the front row with targets, pistols, swords etc. Right behind them would be the musketeers and because the targeteers had both plate/chainmail armor and targets it was difficult for the native arrows to injure them, so the line would wither down the Powhatan forces behind the target wall before finally charging, at which point the musketeers would either draw their own melee weapon or just use the matchlock as a club. tldr; pikes were NOT used in the new world, swords and shields were (because the entire thing is a giant forest like wtf r u gonna do with a pike bozo)
@@sarahjessicafarter7383 the issue is that the only records of Powhatan tactics are from colonists, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but iirc since they were fighting against colonists on an island they basically just stayed in the treeline during the siege with bows to stop them from leaving the fort and used canoes with more bowmen to blockade the side facing the mouth of the river. iirc Powhatan raids were described as starting with arrows and being followed by the warband charging with their clubs (the jamestown historical center channel has a good video of the different kinds of clubs). A raiding party was first encountered like 2 weeks into the arrival of the English when a group of about 200-300 Powhatan attacked the camp, only being scared off when the ships fired chainshot in the trees to collapse them on top of the native warriors. The Powhatan would later overwhelm the Jamestown blockhouses in similar ways, burning them down on either 1 or 2 separate occasions. in 1622 the Powhatan also demonstrated very skillful coordination when they laid attacks upon all settlements along the James River at the same time, slaughtering 347 people (a quarter of the population at that point). After the massacre the crown took over the venture and the citizen militias were equipped with weapons and armor from the Tower of London, ordered by their new leadership to wage a war of extermination against the Powhatan in revenge for the 1622 massacre
@@genericlegionaryrecruit7235 how about the spanish did they use pike and shot in the new world? i know at the time when they were colonizing they were still fighting tercio style, but did they fight like that in the new world?
@@shinobu2394 Generally? No. The tercio requires a certain weight of numbers to effectively mass fire and have a firm defense which wasn't present in the New World. In the New World, due to a relative inability to bring along considerable amounts of powder and shot (remember at the time that most arquebusiers carried 12 shots "One for every apostle") to the battlefield, the Spanish relied on much the same strategy of their English counterparts. Looking at most records which exist (Cortes' letters from 75 years earlier are still a good way to extrapolate if dated by this time), Spanish forces were usually around 40-50 men in a company, most of whom were armed sword and buckler with a few missile troops sprinkled in. (There is another comment which lampoons pikes in this as being unwieldy, which is a fair observation.) You might occasionally have a few horses or an overstrength company (1701 for example has the Santa Fe company in "Neuvo Mexico" at 100 men) but horses are a liability due to forage requirements as well. In short? No. A little longer, sword, shield, maybe the occasional arquebusier or musketeer, and even a crossbow or two. Hope this helps.
It is actually accurate how they fought white people actually lost war the only reason native indian agreed to peace is because they are peaceful people Spaniards, and whites were savages
They wouldn't have used cannonball projectiles while defending a fort, especially against an exceedingly thin line of attackers like this, they would have used some variation of grapeshot. Cannonballs, or round shot, would only be used in *attacking* a fort and subjecting it to artillery fire to destroy its walls.
Grapeshot wasn't invented until the Napoleonic era. Prior to then, exploding shot was the only alternative to solid, but it's unlikely that a colony would have people experienced enough with it in order for it to be used.
@@nobodyspecial4702 I'm not sure about this time period, but it wasn't unheard of for cannon to be loaded with metal scraps, stones, broken glass and such as an expedient measure before proper grape and canister were developed.
The forts cannons would have been their mostly to protect the colony from spanish ships, but you could cram a cannon with broken links of chain, rocks etc and let it blast.
Epic scene, but totally far-fetched. The early settlers were not stupid, and they were not all just farmers and blacksmiths. They were not newbies at close melee combat. Voyages to the New World were well equiped for protection by sending a company of experienced men as an armed force. European soldiers were very good at being soldiers, and the armor was well designed for warding off blunt impact weapons. There is no record of pikes being used in north America at that time. Gun powder and edged weapons were the norm. While an attack of fast light warriors could easily have broken any infantry line, the individual combat that would have followed would not have been so one-sided. Massacres did occur, but by both sides.
Yea there’s a reason they won most battles, once they studied how the natives fought, something never shown, they simply adapted their tactics. In fact in most cases the skilled European swordsmen made easy work because, contrary to battles back home, they simply hacked and slashed their way through because the natives had no armor.
Very true, but you also have to understand that. Europeans weren't idiots before they even landed. They kept their ships, mainly in 3S and 4's to accommodate for a large number of people to land in several these areas. They slept on the ships even though they could stand they never let the ships leave unless it was to regain supplies, and if they knew they could hold. First of all, the Europeans never would look at grass in front of their Fort. Get that long, they would cut it down to prevent a sneak attack like this. Econd of all the Europeans would set up the artillery on a higher level, not at ground level, but where they could honestly fire into large crowds. And it was about half a football field, 2 a full football field length. Of open field that the enemy would have to cross, preferably, the Indians tacked at night and they would never attack in small numbers. They would rally other villages to attack. The Europeans knew this and they would use their muskets as their best weapon. But they knew that they couldn't get far of it, but the British weren't very stupid, they carried. Such things as boarding axes, cutlasses and very much. So footlock pistolls. The British held their 4 positions and would never go out to meet them. Because they knew they wouldn't last 5 seconds on open ground. The British's british fallback plan was if the settlement was taken. Uber, treat to the boats. And one thing that they were really keen about was. When the enemy was about to overrun the settlement, the sailors were told to stay aboard ship even if the sentiment was ready or not, so the sailors would open fire into the settlement to cause panic among the native tribes, but most of the time it did because they had never seen such large objects coming. Down in destroying 4 or 5 people in one thing that they did realize is once the European started firing. These it wasn't m. It was an epic because they had so many of them. The native Americans would fall back. But then another European tactic that they did is because the Europeans knew that the natives couldn't do this. Large-scale attack that often they would go hunting. And eventually, men, that would be on that settlement for years at a time would figure out a way back to the native village and to go there and slaughter. Slaughter them to send a clear message that they will not tolerate their settlements being attacked. And if you attack our servants, we will attack your village. The native Americans started to realize this and start to fall back. And over time, the Europeans started to venture out and build farms and settlements. But the rule was simple. You destroy enough of the forest to keep your settlement alive. And that means by establishing farms. But mainly when the Europeans did do this, they decided it was a good idea to make an outer wall. For the farmers and for a defensive wine over time, they didn't need it. But they would have to keep that wall for right now.
there is record of serious massacres in Jamestown's history (although not around the movie's supposed time period) and battles in John Smith's General Historie of Virginia. Fair that the settlers would be familiar at close quarters, but in the face of those more agile why would they not be overpowered in this way. It's brutal, but not far-fetched from what happened at different times in history. It doesn't seem so one-sided, Malick focuses on the English getting overpowered, but most wider shots still show plenty of back-and-forth combat between the English and natives.
muskets are sh!tty, and misfire a lot. they do look cool though. nickle-plated weapons that use pre-assembled rounds from the next century such as double-barrels and 6-shooters were superior.
@@kikstertiger79 ...says a guy with a Norman-English first name and a Spanish surname meaning war 🤦🏻♂️ and who probably only speaks Spanish and English 🤡 did your little ego think that your disgusting ignorant display of hatred towards whites (even though you're also white) would meet with praise? nobody in the Americas could live without weapons... if you have a problem with colonialists you need to first remove your western clothes, shoes, phone and forget your literacy, education, language, lifestyle, probably even not exist due to how many people died in infancy before, and never use a road, railtrack, plane, tools, central heating, air conditioning, cutlery, any maufactured products, never watch a movie, read a book, know about the history of any part of the world, probably including your own, never eat any food or drink any drink that isn't local to your immediate area, give up access to the world market, and basically be nothing besides a stoneage subsistence farmer 🤷🏻♂️ or potential Aztec sacrifice... never drink beer, never use the interenet, etc... then you can criticise colonists (from which you are descended).
Why didn't they just stay in the fort first? cover the cannons with a pike wall at the gates/openings while the arquebusiers poke their guns between the wall stakes and thin their numbers first? Once the enemy has lost enough of their numbers, then fall to formation and advance. That was just silly going out like that. You want to take away the natives close combat advantage, not give it to them. I'm sure by that time they all would have known better than to try and go hand to hand with tribesmen who have been doing it for thousands of years.
the whole problem with the scene is the pikes, cuz the actual colonists didn't use them. They made shield walls and had the musketeers fire from right behind them when they werent all inside the fort itself because the shield and armor was really hard for the natives to do anything against
Wie hier bei 2:12 gibt's auch bei der Anfangsschlachtszene in "The Revenant" einen Indianer, der inmitten der Kämpfe leicht entrückt übers Schlachtfeld wandert - wahrscheinlich irgendein spirituelles Mutter Erde-Ding, Traumfänger, etc. Der Häuptling heißt A'tuataa-i, was so viel bedeutet wie: "Der große braune Puma, der sich am Morgen aufmacht, zu jagen, es sich dann aber anders überlegt und er noch eine Runde döst"
When you have matchlock firearms against a foe armed with bows and arrows and clubs and you fire a volley, you're pretty much on par with your foe weapon-wise.
@Tim J And those warriors have been training their whole lives with bow and arrow. But the European settlers had some armor to give some protection for their vital organs (well hit a femoral artery and youre pretty much screwed). But you are absolutely correct. Personally, I think it was the repeating rifle, brass cartridge, smokeless powder, that phased out the bow and arrow in the late 1800s centuries later from 1607.
@@thes.a.s.s.1361 Basically it was revolver that changed everything. Comanches were totally dominating skirmishes with their rapid firing bows before. Once people got revolvers they got change to return fire rapidly.
Probably because these aren’t soldiers, they’re settlers with weapons they’ve just been handed. There’s some captains at Jamestown, but that’s it. This is not a trained military garrison.
In real life at the Battle of the little Bighorn, a Sioux warrior described seeing another Sioux warrior who was shot in the lower jaw. The entire lower section of his face was ripped off & all he had left was a bloody flailing tongue. The Sioux warrior who saw this immediately began "heaving" in his words. Then he fell to his knees & cried. The Sioux won that battle by completely destroying the 7th cavalry in "about the time it takes a hungry man to eat his breakfast" as quoted by the Indians who fought in the battle. . .
Clad in armor, well acquainted with hand-to-hand combat, with the advantage (albeit limited) of firearms - defeated by a bunch of loosely formed and unprotected natives. Yeah, you bet.
You know what.. Read history books. You can get ten different perspectives on the same subject. It takes longer and its a far better plot but it's worth it. Remember the more you read the smarter you get. It doesn't work that way with videos. Like this one.
@@ViktoriousDead Hoplite Warfare does predate Alexander the great. This is true. However, I think what Bryan meant to put was that Alexander refinded the phalanx and such. Swapping out weapons here or changing depth of ranks there. Various stuff that's too large for me to sufficiently cover. However I wouldn't say medieval/ren revived phalanx formation exactly. It was more how Heavy cavalry brought about the usage of pike formations. This is why France was feared due to their excellent cavalry and their employment of Swiss Mercenaries who loved their pikes. Later Spain would form the Tercio which an adaptable formation for range, cav, and infantry engagements. To the east we see Jan Zizka using wagon forts as mobile fortifications against Teutonic Knights. Really interesting to see just how much flexibility there was to warfare considering the technological limitation that some see the era's prior to modern history with.
Pike formations (pike and shot tactics) have as much in common with a phalanx formation as ww2 fire and maneuver has with the Napoleonic wars. Absolutely nothing. Pike squares were flexible (made up of tiny units commanded by a lieutenant or captain of sorts, and who employed various close and ranged weapons and who could maneuver close to other similar units within a larger unit, nothing like the large phalanx run by a single commander), and which could face any direction or all directions with ease. They could break up in smaller units, and they were filled with musketeers who would come out shoot and move back within the ranks and reload, or just use a sword, a bill or a halberd. And most importantly, they did not need any support from other fighting units because they were combined arms, unlike the phalanx which relied on other unit types (cavalry and skirmishers) to keep their rear and flanks secure, and worse, they struggled in even the slightest uneven terrain which regularly broke up the formation. The pike squares are the invention of the independent Swiss confederations which they developed to fight the French cavalry, and which were inspired exactly 0% by ancient Greece warfare style, but rather it was an ingenious way to beat heavy infantry and cavalry with firearms, then keeping the musketeers and pistoleers safe to reload. I understand history is boring and it is more confortable to be ignorant on various topics, but what i do not get is what is the point of spreading complete nonsense on the internet such as because both these guys were using long sticks they must be related and they must have been influenced somehow. Because that is the only thing pike formations had in common with phalanx formations: a long stick. Dismounted knights or Vikings fought more Greek-like than these guys,. This innovation, absolutely unrelated to Greek culture rediscovery during renaissance led to critical warfare innovations which turned the comparatively tiny European armies (to the rest of the world) into absolute military steamrollers which rendered every other military power utterly obsolete and incapable of putting up any meaningful fight. Tightly integrated combined arms, fighting as a single unit, made up of professional soldiers capable to fight in formation and accomplish complex tasks and maneuvering by following an officer, and who drill all day long is the type of warfare which dominates every battlefield to this day. The pike would be soon dropped and replaced by shorter weapons, to then be completely replaced with the bayonet. It was never about the pike, it just happened to be in favour during that era because the main threat was heavy cavalry. Otherwise, fighting in formation like the Greeks has always been a thing.
Native Indians trained their young to hunt and fight as kids So those Braves in the fight sleekly muscled are built to fight, not surprised they were one-shotting people
Are they chanting “King George “ when they advance? This wouldn’t make sense because they are settlers of Jamestown named after the current king James.
Directors! The reality is NOT boring!!!! We don't need mindless open battles without formation. Why do so many think that soldiers want to die? Military tactics were called Art of War someday ...
Open melee combat is more visually cinematic to the audience than a bunch of guys standing around in squares shoving eachother back and forth. The average audience member isn't a military history nerd and doesn't care about historical accuracy.
They are still effective in forest... But you need more men. And they can still stand a chance... but when they broke ranks when the natives attacked, they are doomed.
@@linming5610 you’re right, this movie tho makes it look pathetic. I did some research and found many armies in Europe won wars for centuries entirely on their pike formations.
So you have a fort with high walls, pretty much impossible for any native warband to breach, but you abandon the fort and choose to brawl with the enemy, genius.
I need to look into this specific battle, or set of circumstances, but as far as I know, the steel armor and steel weapons of the colonizers were so dominant on the battlefield that the native Americans really had no shot in a straight up fight. Also, yes, why in the world leave the fort?
They left the fort to clear out and defeat the Indians. If they didn’t they’d stay in the fort, unable to leave to scavenge food or collect water without being overwhelmed far from the fort. This would also leave it undefended and destroyed by the Indians. The skirmish was to inflict casualties in the Indians and force them to retreat from the vicinity.
The fact they couldve easily defended that attack if they stayed in the wall like a fucking line of mine moving towards the enemy with no actual sight and every shot counts as it takes a long time to reload plus they had no melee at all pure gujs expect for the ones with swords
dude they never get that shit right in movies like armor was actually OP as fuck irl but in movies theyre just paper, there only one thing, and its a video game where they actually kinda get close to how OP armor was, kingdom come deliverence
Captain Smith and Pocahontas Had a very mad affair When her daddy tried to kill him She said, "Daddy, oh, don't you dare" He gives me fever With his kisses Fever when he holds me tight Fever I'm his missus And daddy, won't you treat him right?
Fantastic battle tactics send your troops into tall grass in an environment the enemy is well versed in warfare, wouldn't be me. Stay in the fortified fort.
none, spanish forces as small as 40 men were able to defeat native american armies that numbered in the tens of thousands, and only a few hundred were able to conquer the Mayan and Aztek civilizations. this is hollywood, the whites were unequaled in military combat and technology at the time, the natives stood no chance.
@@danielbuchanan4027 Yes and no, they were able to take the capital and hold the native government hostage with no outside assistance, despite being outnumbered thousands to one. While they ultimately retreated and came back after recruiting natives for their force, they still made up the bulk destructive force of the army sowing chaos and causing enemy lines to break as they were frightened of the impenetrable armored men riding "giant dogs" and having "the power of thunder" that could blow them away from great distance.
I guess this encapsulates all that is wrong with Hollywood combat. Good defensive position? Leave it for no good reason, we must get massacred. Terrain with lot of concealment? Lets go there so we can be massacred. Fight in a line, formation, herd? No, lets mix everyone together (ignore how would that even come about), so instead of a battle its actually of duels or getting killed from behind (humans love when that happens to them and seek it out). These people have no idea what war is and why it is horrible, so they cope by manufacturing nonsense.
Tbf this is very well portrayed this ain't a fort but a settlement, if they don't go out there to fight and reduce their numbers... they will physically be unable to ever leave the fort to gather resources, this is a die or die situation... not much you could do in a situation like that, funny enough there's a lot of books on situations like these you can get, and unlike the movies the west Indians weren't really having the best time of their lives when it came to fighting armoured opponents, specially conquistador style armour like these lot. But the whole battle made no sense... that I won't dissagree
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Good thinking by the commander to send all his men out of the walled fort and into tall grass, tactical mastermind
Men to men talk.
In fairness, nobody would have anticipated that. Maybe he was going for the element of surprise first and foremost? Hahaha 🤣
Perhaps he figured that the vastly numerically superior enemy would keep sending bigger and bigger waves of raiders against their fort, and soon annihilate them, unless they got a taste of sword and polearms as well as shot and cannon. At any rate, he knew the raiding party wasn't too large for them to handle, and that the natives' clubs and arrows, and total lack of armour and shields, placed them at a colossal disadvantage on the open field. Because he had spent some time with them. War is more than tactical concerns, and strategy often appears irrational to the impetuous i.e. Cunctator in his strategies against Hannibal.
@@filipselakovic5428 agree, and perhaps they didn’t think they would be able to outlast a siege. They needed to be able to keep their supply lines open.
Also very effective to point your pikes out (towards the ground apparently) so your soldiers get tired before even seeing the enemy. And they were apparently totally useless as the enemy ran right past them.
Leaving my walled fortress to be slaughtered in the open by the enemy. That's exactly the sort of thing I do playing Age of Empires !
It’s historicaly accurate
The Europeans most likely were arrogant.
Total war empire
@@imperatorglaber1752 No european adventurers who first came into America were mostly veterans of the wars in Europe and of the most pragmatic, ,adventurous and daring stock. They'd adapt more quickly than everyone and display incredible cunning and determination in all situations. That scene is just complete bullshit.
@henryspadt6160 not even close my guy. There would barely be that many people defending a colony that small. Most likely, they would have just fired at the natives from behind their walls, then just wait them out until they lost hope.
Not a phone in sight, just people living in the moment...
Don't think most people would be using their phones in a battle at any time
I don’t this is the best example in which to bring that up
@@michaelhanson8296 i saw a video of an arab soldier playing clash royale while defending a position, so there are some madlads out there that probably would
just dudes being dudes
@@michaelhanson8296 Dude....i just saw a tik took of an african sodier in the middle ofa battle.....your arguent is invalid.
At first I thought the battle scene was confusing but when I saw the film was directed by Terence Malick it all made sense.
my first time watching I didn't know, I kept thinking it looked and felt like The Thin Red Line
Now imagine The Bourne Identity directed by Terrence Malick
Looks like they sallied to flush out the natives but got themselves flanked too early to rally properly...
fkn opponents archers cost only 100 food and fire through the walls wth am i supposed to do :O
I see they learned siege defense from Game of Thrones 👍
If you pick up a history book you would know the English almost never had enough food to outlast native Americans, and that it took repeating guns and other natives for Americans to fully have it too themselves
Imagine being that guy with the little shield but it’s for another guy you have to protect
Based
Suppose he gets extra beer rations for it, then it all makes sense.
What kind of bullshit shield is that anyway 😂
@@Loilicorne17615 its called a buckler, a shield used by swordsmen for parrying, and riposte, however the shield kinda sucks
In the Army, they have a saying, 'RHIP! Rank Has Its Privilege's! That's why NOW rank is not shown to enemy! If they REALLY had any balls, be in front to show how brave you are!
Tactically brilliant move there to march out with pikes in a skirmish formation. The extra spacing between individual pikemen allowed the english to surprise the natives by scattering themselves into the field allowing everyone to fight hand to hand with knives and swords.
I dont think battles devolved like this anyway. Soldiers were more likely to stay in a formation. Nobody fights individual battles like this. If the formation breaks and you are fighting alone then you are more likely to panic and die.
Tha is why Braveheart sucks.
"The entirety of this scene is bullshit." - Me, military history genius
THE WHOLE GOD DAMN ADVANTAGE EUROPEAN TROOPS HAVE BESIDES TECHNOLOGY IS ORGANIZATION AND DISCIPLINE! WHY WOULD THEY LOSE FORMATION! ESPECIALLY PIKES! AHHHHHHHHH
Don't forget that they dropped the pikes and retreated. If they had held the formation with pikes in hand, the thing would have been different
Stupid move, leaving the fortress and exposing themselves.
Its hard to overstate the advantage that a swordsman in steel armor has over a naked spearman or axemen untile you have held a sword and realize how much more nimbly it moves than an axe, even in the hands of an ameteur.
The movie is actually not only inaccurate about leaving the fort, but also inaccurate about how they would fight when they did. When Jamestown militia exited the fort of Jamestown to attack natives there were no pikes involved whatsoever. Those guys with the shields in this scene are called targeteers (because the shield is called a target) and they would stand in the front row with targets, pistols, swords etc. Right behind them would be the musketeers and because the targeteers had both plate/chainmail armor and targets it was difficult for the native arrows to injure them, so the line would wither down the Powhatan forces behind the target wall before finally charging, at which point the musketeers would either draw their own melee weapon or just use the matchlock as a club.
tldr; pikes were NOT used in the new world, swords and shields were (because the entire thing is a giant forest like wtf r u gonna do with a pike bozo)
Ok now explain Powtahan military tactics.
@@sarahjessicafarter7383 the issue is that the only records of Powhatan tactics are from colonists, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but iirc since they were fighting against colonists on an island they basically just stayed in the treeline during the siege with bows to stop them from leaving the fort and used canoes with more bowmen to blockade the side facing the mouth of the river. iirc Powhatan raids were described as starting with arrows and being followed by the warband charging with their clubs (the jamestown historical center channel has a good video of the different kinds of clubs). A raiding party was first encountered like 2 weeks into the arrival of the English when a group of about 200-300 Powhatan attacked the camp, only being scared off when the ships fired chainshot in the trees to collapse them on top of the native warriors. The Powhatan would later overwhelm the Jamestown blockhouses in similar ways, burning them down on either 1 or 2 separate occasions. in 1622 the Powhatan also demonstrated very skillful coordination when they laid attacks upon all settlements along the James River at the same time, slaughtering 347 people (a quarter of the population at that point). After the massacre the crown took over the venture and the citizen militias were equipped with weapons and armor from the Tower of London, ordered by their new leadership to wage a war of extermination against the Powhatan in revenge for the 1622 massacre
@@genericlegionaryrecruit7235 how about the spanish did they use pike and shot in the new world? i know at the time when they were colonizing they were still fighting tercio style, but did they fight like that in the new world?
@@shinobu2394 Generally? No. The tercio requires a certain weight of numbers to effectively mass fire and have a firm defense which wasn't present in the New World. In the New World, due to a relative inability to bring along considerable amounts of powder and shot (remember at the time that most arquebusiers carried 12 shots "One for every apostle") to the battlefield, the Spanish relied on much the same strategy of their English counterparts.
Looking at most records which exist (Cortes' letters from 75 years earlier are still a good way to extrapolate if dated by this time), Spanish forces were usually around 40-50 men in a company, most of whom were armed sword and buckler with a few missile troops sprinkled in. (There is another comment which lampoons pikes in this as being unwieldy, which is a fair observation.) You might occasionally have a few horses or an overstrength company (1701 for example has the Santa Fe company in "Neuvo Mexico" at 100 men) but horses are a liability due to forage requirements as well.
In short? No. A little longer, sword, shield, maybe the occasional arquebusier or musketeer, and even a crossbow or two.
Hope this helps.
It is actually accurate how they fought white people actually lost war the only reason native indian agreed to peace is because they are peaceful people Spaniards, and whites were savages
Why would you leave a fortified position?
Because its a propaganda movie
@@mynamejeff785 oh it's one of those "james town" movies
because they wanted to give the natives a fair chance....
They are men.
People make mistakes all the time
They wouldn't have used cannonball projectiles while defending a fort, especially against an exceedingly thin line of attackers like this, they would have used some variation of grapeshot. Cannonballs, or round shot, would only be used in *attacking* a fort and subjecting it to artillery fire to destroy its walls.
Grapeshot wasn't invented until the Napoleonic era. Prior to then, exploding shot was the only alternative to solid, but it's unlikely that a colony would have people experienced enough with it in order for it to be used.
@@nobodyspecial4702 I'm not sure about this time period, but it wasn't unheard of for cannon to be loaded with metal scraps, stones, broken glass and such as an expedient measure before proper grape and canister were developed.
The forts cannons would have been their mostly to protect the colony from spanish ships, but you could cram a cannon with broken links of chain, rocks etc and let it blast.
exploding shot is also more expensive to build than just solid iron cannonballs.
Epic scene, but totally far-fetched. The early settlers were not stupid, and they were not all just farmers and blacksmiths. They were not newbies at close melee combat. Voyages to the New World were well equiped for protection by sending a company of experienced men as an armed force. European soldiers were very good at being soldiers, and the armor was well designed for warding off blunt impact weapons. There is no record of pikes being used in north America at that time. Gun powder and edged weapons were the norm. While an attack of fast light warriors could easily have broken any infantry line, the individual combat that would have followed would not have been so one-sided. Massacres did occur, but by both sides.
Yea there’s a reason they won most battles, once they studied how the natives fought, something never shown, they simply adapted their tactics. In fact in most cases the skilled European swordsmen made easy work because, contrary to battles back home, they simply hacked and slashed their way through because the natives had no armor.
In movies the more advanced side gets nerfed. XD
Very true, but you also have to understand that. Europeans weren't idiots before they even landed. They kept their ships, mainly in 3S and 4's to accommodate for a large number of people to land in several these areas. They slept on the ships even though they could stand they never let the ships leave unless it was to regain supplies, and if they knew they could hold. First of all, the Europeans never would look at grass in front of their Fort. Get that long, they would cut it down to prevent a sneak attack like this. Econd of all the Europeans would set up the artillery on a higher level, not at ground level, but where they could honestly fire into large crowds. And it was about half a football field, 2 a full football field length. Of open field that the enemy would have to cross, preferably, the Indians tacked at night and they would never attack in small numbers. They would rally other villages to attack. The Europeans knew this and they would use their muskets as their best weapon. But they knew that they couldn't get far of it, but the British weren't very stupid, they carried. Such things as boarding axes, cutlasses and very much. So footlock pistolls. The British held their 4 positions and would never go out to meet them. Because they knew they wouldn't last 5 seconds on open ground. The British's british fallback plan was if the settlement was taken. Uber, treat to the boats. And one thing that they were really keen about was. When the enemy was about to overrun the settlement, the sailors were told to stay aboard ship even if the sentiment was ready or not, so the sailors would open fire into the settlement to cause panic among the native tribes, but most of the time it did because they had never seen such large objects coming. Down in destroying 4 or 5 people in one thing that they did realize is once the European started firing. These it wasn't m. It was an epic because they had so many of them. The native Americans would fall back. But then another European tactic that they did is because the Europeans knew that the natives couldn't do this. Large-scale attack that often they would go hunting. And eventually, men, that would be on that settlement for years at a time would figure out a way back to the native village and to go there and slaughter. Slaughter them to send a clear message that they will not tolerate their settlements being attacked. And if you attack our servants, we will attack your village. The native Americans started to realize this and start to fall back. And over time, the Europeans started to venture out and build farms and settlements. But the rule was simple. You destroy enough of the forest to keep your settlement alive. And that means by establishing farms. But mainly when the Europeans did do this, they decided it was a good idea to make an outer wall. For the farmers and for a defensive wine over time, they didn't need it. But they would have to keep that wall for right now.
Please excuse My bad grammar it was the microphone on my cell phone
there is record of serious massacres in Jamestown's history (although not around the movie's supposed time period) and battles in John Smith's General Historie of Virginia. Fair that the settlers would be familiar at close quarters, but in the face of those more agile why would they not be overpowered in this way. It's brutal, but not far-fetched from what happened at different times in history. It doesn't seem so one-sided, Malick focuses on the English getting overpowered, but most wider shots still show plenty of back-and-forth combat between the English and natives.
This kids is why your parents tell you to mow the lawn , you never know who's sneaking up in there
Love how the pikemen just disappear when they're needed most to protect the musketeers lol
Conquistadores
@@SantiagoHMex brown savages
Damn, i love those old muskets
Those are matchlocks. You should make one.
@@talisdorman.9796 i would want to, after all, i want to be in the firearms technology
@@narcotics-eb3om Unless you're high on narcotics 24/7 that industry would be very depressing
@@talisdorman.9796 It's the Battle of Little Bigboys
muskets are sh!tty, and misfire a lot. they do look cool though.
nickle-plated weapons that use pre-assembled rounds from the next century such as double-barrels and 6-shooters were superior.
“To the devils Gentleman!”
“God. Save. The. King!”
Based.
The first thanksgiving fight ever.
Reminds me of the brief battle scene from Black Robe despite it being different from this scene
I can’t believe a video from 1607 is more clear than bank security cameras
As innacurate as the fighting is technically, this scene is actually very emotional and well executed
@Tim J waht is not 'technically'?
A scene to amuse the anti colonials... cinema is fashion and polítics of the moment
@@kikstertiger79 ...says a guy with a Norman-English first name and a Spanish surname meaning war 🤦🏻♂️
and who probably only speaks Spanish and English 🤡
did your little ego think that your disgusting ignorant display of hatred towards whites (even though you're also white) would meet with praise?
nobody in the Americas could live without weapons...
if you have a problem with colonialists you need to first remove your western clothes, shoes, phone and forget your literacy, education, language, lifestyle, probably even not exist due to how many people died in infancy before, and never use a road, railtrack, plane, tools, central heating, air conditioning, cutlery, any maufactured products, never watch a movie, read a book, know about the history of any part of the world, probably including your own, never eat any food or drink any drink that isn't local to your immediate area, give up access to the world market, and basically be nothing besides a stoneage subsistence farmer 🤷🏻♂️ or potential Aztec sacrifice... never drink beer, never use the interenet, etc...
then you can criticise colonists (from which you are descended).
@@kikstertiger79 the Indians also had guns. They traded fur with the French to get them.
They still lost 🤦
Shut up, you just spoke out of your back end, brother knows nothing of the 17th century
Why didn't they just stay in the fort first? cover the cannons with a pike wall at the gates/openings while the arquebusiers poke their guns between the wall stakes and thin their numbers first? Once the enemy has lost enough of their numbers, then fall to formation and advance. That was just silly going out like that. You want to take away the natives close combat advantage, not give it to them. I'm sure by that time they all would have known better than to try and go hand to hand with tribesmen who have been doing it for thousands of years.
Good idea, let's go share this with them so they don't make that mistake again
the whole problem with the scene is the pikes, cuz the actual colonists didn't use them. They made shield walls and had the musketeers fire from right behind them when they werent all inside the fort itself because the shield and armor was really hard for the natives to do anything against
We could simply burn down the fortress
@@Daylon91We? 😅
@MrRikardoe I am Nakota Sioux so native american maybe not from the right tribe but nevertheless
This is some game of thrones, battle of winterfell, level strategy
This movie doesn't get enough attention and credit. The whole sequence starting at 115 cost me a flashback. Bravo to the folks that made thsi happen.
Dude forgot he had Alexander blood in him. Couldve continued the phalanx formation.
Wie hier bei 2:12 gibt's auch bei der Anfangsschlachtszene in "The Revenant" einen Indianer, der inmitten der Kämpfe leicht entrückt übers Schlachtfeld wandert - wahrscheinlich irgendein spirituelles Mutter Erde-Ding, Traumfänger, etc. Der Häuptling heißt A'tuataa-i, was so viel bedeutet wie: "Der große braune Puma, der sich am Morgen aufmacht, zu jagen, es sich dann aber anders überlegt und er noch eine Runde döst"
5yo girl: Can we buy Pochahontas movie Mum?
Mum: we have Pochahontas at home
The Pochahontas:
Since we're in the mood upload some Apocalypto scenes please
Those go in my Johnny's Sword and Shield channel but yes great film!
@@JohnnysWarStories wait...you have another channel?
@@GannicusMisteriosdeHonduras ohyes! One dedicated to Sword and Shield. ruclips.net/video/kjts2uOOmO4/видео.html
@@JohnnysWarStories I subbed Johnny
@@GannicusMisteriosdeHonduras my man
The English White Settlers refused to leave.
I perfectly understand that the Natives did not want them to stay.
Yeah nobody likes illegal immigrants
Thank you for posting this video.
When you have matchlock firearms against a foe armed with bows and arrows and clubs and you fire a volley, you're pretty much on par with your foe weapon-wise.
@Tim J And those warriors have been training their whole lives with bow and arrow. But the European settlers had some armor to give some protection for their vital organs (well hit a femoral artery and youre pretty much screwed). But you are absolutely correct. Personally, I think it was the repeating rifle, brass cartridge, smokeless powder, that phased out the bow and arrow in the late 1800s centuries later from 1607.
@@thes.a.s.s.1361 Basically it was revolver that changed everything. Comanches were totally dominating skirmishes with their rapid firing bows before. Once people got revolvers they got change to return fire rapidly.
90 seconds in and already shaking my head at the bs tactics
Probably because these aren’t soldiers, they’re settlers with weapons they’ve just been handed. There’s some captains at Jamestown, but that’s it. This is not a trained military garrison.
When you go toe to toe is not the same. Heroes will be defined differently
you should also upload this video in johnny's swords and sheild channel
In real life at the Battle of the little Bighorn, a Sioux warrior described seeing another Sioux warrior who was shot in the lower jaw. The entire lower section of his face was ripped off & all he had left was a bloody flailing tongue. The Sioux warrior who saw this immediately began "heaving" in his words. Then he fell to his knees & cried. The Sioux won that battle by completely destroying the 7th cavalry in "about the time it takes a hungry man to eat his breakfast" as quoted by the Indians who fought in the battle. . .
This movie should have been rated R and longer.
Thanks for Posting
Clad in armor, well acquainted with hand-to-hand combat, with the advantage (albeit limited) of firearms - defeated by a bunch of loosely formed and unprotected natives. Yeah, you bet.
Jamestown soldiers almost certainly did not fire exploding cannon shells. It would have been solid shot or some form of grapeshot or scrap shot
Great idea for the soldiers to stand outside the wall that they specifically built to defend against the enemy
Surely all the high brush in front of the fort would have been cleared and hacked away daily to give clear view and warning of approach?
You know what.. Read history books. You can get ten different perspectives on the same subject. It takes longer and its a far better plot but it's worth it. Remember the more you read the smarter you get. It doesn't work that way with videos. Like this one.
but smart people is less happy.. so let us watch our videos
Intersting how medieval/renaissance warfare revived the phalanx/phalanges formation the Greeks and Alexander developed.
Alexander didn’t develop them at all, not in the slightest, that’s like saying George Washington invented line infantry tactics
@@ViktoriousDead Hoplite Warfare does predate Alexander the great. This is true. However, I think what Bryan meant to put was that Alexander refinded the phalanx and such. Swapping out weapons here or changing depth of ranks there. Various stuff that's too large for me to sufficiently cover.
However I wouldn't say medieval/ren revived phalanx formation exactly. It was more how Heavy cavalry brought about the usage of pike formations. This is why France was feared due to their excellent cavalry and their employment of Swiss Mercenaries who loved their pikes.
Later Spain would form the Tercio which an adaptable formation for range, cav, and infantry engagements.
To the east we see Jan Zizka using wagon forts as mobile fortifications against Teutonic Knights.
Really interesting to see just how much flexibility there was to warfare considering the technological limitation that some see the era's prior to modern history with.
Pike formations (pike and shot tactics) have as much in common with a phalanx formation as ww2 fire and maneuver has with the Napoleonic wars. Absolutely nothing. Pike squares were flexible (made up of tiny units commanded by a lieutenant or captain of sorts, and who employed various close and ranged weapons and who could maneuver close to other similar units within a larger unit, nothing like the large phalanx run by a single commander), and which could face any direction or all directions with ease. They could break up in smaller units, and they were filled with musketeers who would come out shoot and move back within the ranks and reload, or just use a sword, a bill or a halberd. And most importantly, they did not need any support from other fighting units because they were combined arms, unlike the phalanx which relied on other unit types (cavalry and skirmishers) to keep their rear and flanks secure, and worse, they struggled in even the slightest uneven terrain which regularly broke up the formation. The pike squares are the invention of the independent Swiss confederations which they developed to fight the French cavalry, and which were inspired exactly 0% by ancient Greece warfare style, but rather it was an ingenious way to beat heavy infantry and cavalry with firearms, then keeping the musketeers and pistoleers safe to reload.
I understand history is boring and it is more confortable to be ignorant on various topics, but what i do not get is what is the point of spreading complete nonsense on the internet such as because both these guys were using long sticks they must be related and they must have been influenced somehow. Because that is the only thing pike formations had in common with phalanx formations: a long stick. Dismounted knights or Vikings fought more Greek-like than these guys,. This innovation, absolutely unrelated to Greek culture rediscovery during renaissance led to critical warfare innovations which turned the comparatively tiny European armies (to the rest of the world) into absolute military steamrollers which rendered every other military power utterly obsolete and incapable of putting up any meaningful fight. Tightly integrated combined arms, fighting as a single unit, made up of professional soldiers capable to fight in formation and accomplish complex tasks and maneuvering by following an officer, and who drill all day long is the type of warfare which dominates every battlefield to this day.
The pike would be soon dropped and replaced by shorter weapons, to then be completely replaced with the bayonet. It was never about the pike, it just happened to be in favour during that era because the main threat was heavy cavalry. Otherwise, fighting in formation like the Greeks has always been a thing.
Native Indians trained their young to hunt and fight as kids
So those Braves in the fight sleekly muscled are built to fight, not surprised they were one-shotting people
Are they chanting “King George “ when they advance? This wouldn’t make sense because they are settlers of Jamestown named after the current king James.
2:13 that has to be Walker from Fear the walking Dead
@Johnny's War Stories, can you upload that The Eight Hundred Desparte Battle Scene please.
I did upload it. Sadly. the studio decided to block it in several countries.
@@JohnnysWarStories I meant reupload it.
@@JohnnysWarStories Though still a bummer that the studio had to block it. I loved that scene.
Yah me too. Sorry dude i can't risk a copyright strike.
@@JohnnysWarStories I can see. Maybe Operation Chromite then?
Another good clip! You are choosing your clips very well
When you and your friend just spawned in rust and you all decide to raid a random player camp
Directors! The reality is NOT boring!!!! We don't need mindless open battles without formation. Why do so many think that soldiers want to die? Military tactics were called Art of War someday ...
Open melee combat is more visually cinematic to the audience than a bunch of guys standing around in squares shoving eachother back and forth. The average audience member isn't a military history nerd and doesn't care about historical accuracy.
@@MichaelCasanovaMusic You have clearly not understood my point in any way.
Pocahontas understood the English language at this point. She coulda talked her father in letting her negotiate instead of this
The English colonies almost died fighting the Indians while the Spanish colonies were able to control almost all of America 😂😂😂
Pike formations are such a limited thing why the hell would they be used in wilderness ?
They are still effective in forest... But you need more men. And they can still stand a chance... but when they broke ranks when the natives attacked, they are doomed.
@@linming5610 you’re right, this movie tho makes it look pathetic. I did some research and found many armies in Europe won wars for centuries entirely on their pike formations.
@@linming5610 they needed more men with shields and swords like the Spaniards employed against the Aztecs.
At least they got one volley in before breaking formation within seconds and getting beaten to death.
When worlds collide.
So much for those guns.
When the pro-gamer joins the server 1:55
What just happened? Confusing to say the least. Thanks anyway.
A poor attempt at showing off a clash of cultures.
I know I’m not the only dude who thinks about being transported to a place like those walls with an ar10 and a solid LPVO.
Get working on that time machine lol
Is he John Smith? Jamestown?
Yes he is.
I don't know if you posted the battle scenes from The Eagle of the 9th. But if you haven't you should
Good suggestion!
So you have a fort with high walls, pretty much impossible for any native warband to breach, but you abandon the fort and choose to brawl with the enemy, genius.
They probably thought they’d look like cowards if they hid
did they ever mention that pocahantas was like 11 years old and john was 25???
Then they didn’t actually have a romantic relationship, did they?
Could everyone stop fighting and live in peace.
I need to look into this specific battle, or set of circumstances, but as far as I know, the steel armor and steel weapons of the colonizers were so dominant on the battlefield that the native Americans really had no shot in a straight up fight.
Also, yes, why in the world leave the fort?
You mean the fort made of flammable wood?
They left the fort to clear out and defeat the Indians. If they didn’t they’d stay in the fort, unable to leave to scavenge food or collect water without being overwhelmed far from the fort. This would also leave it undefended and destroyed by the Indians. The skirmish was to inflict casualties in the Indians and force them to retreat from the vicinity.
Man i remember that movie it was very good
*Magua has joined the server*
The fact they couldve easily defended that attack if they stayed in the wall like a fucking line of mine moving towards the enemy with no actual sight and every shot counts as it takes a long time to reload plus they had no melee at all pure gujs expect for the ones with swords
No Emergency Services during a Period like that!
So much Suffering!
Right on, shows the peace loving natives lololol😂
What a shit pike wall...
In movies the more advanced side gets debuff
Player must be a noob commander by sending all his men out of the fort lmao
What give to see history through the eyes of my Powhatan ancestors
Round shot instead of grape?
Are They Spanish?
This reminds me of Heroes and Castles by Foursaken Media
0% Armor
0% Weaponry
0% Metal
100% BMFs
Fun movie. Please share more clips similar to this.
Что за кино ?
Regin of His Majesty King James the 1st.
The Natives' arrows won't penetrate the English Armor.
dude they never get that shit right in movies like armor was actually OP as fuck irl but in movies theyre just paper, there only one thing, and its a video game where they actually kinda get close to how OP armor was, kingdom come deliverence
Music inspired by ‘Aguirre, Wrath of God’ ?
Those Pikemen didn't last long.
Never leave the Fort…or boat
A type of tree now.
how the hell did the formation break so quickly
Fear.
@@garcalej those are completely drilles and trained soldiers, they don't break so easily
@@theamorphousflatsch2699 Well they’re breaking….
@@garcalej no shit, my point being that its an unrealistic battle depiction
@@theamorphousflatsch2699 It’s a movie, dude.
I’m going to enjoy the cool fact that I live 20min from where all this supposedly happened 😅 at least three grade school years we went to Jamestown.
Captain Smith and Pocahontas
Had a very mad affair
When her daddy tried to kill him
She said, "Daddy, oh, don't you dare"
He gives me fever
With his kisses
Fever when he holds me tight
Fever
I'm his missus
And daddy, won't you treat him right?
Fantastic battle tactics send your troops into tall grass in an environment the enemy is well versed in warfare, wouldn't be me. Stay in the fortified fort.
Dirty savages.... they got theirs in the end
I agree those savages should had been wiped face off the planet earth never to remembered by history again
@Xx1997_DoomerxX why? And when it happens to your people, remember what you wished on others.
@Siziji u realize this is a movie right ?
I wondered about that, is there an account of this battle in history?
none, spanish forces as small as 40 men were able to defeat native american armies that numbered in the tens of thousands, and only a few hundred were able to conquer the Mayan and Aztek civilizations. this is hollywood, the whites were unequaled in military combat and technology at the time, the natives stood no chance.
In Meso-America, they had the help of a few hundred thousand local allied natives as well to be a bit more accurate
@@danielbuchanan4027 Yes and no, they were able to take the capital and hold the native government hostage with no outside assistance, despite being outnumbered thousands to one. While they ultimately retreated and came back after recruiting natives for their force, they still made up the bulk destructive force of the army sowing chaos and causing enemy lines to break as they were frightened of the impenetrable armored men riding "giant dogs" and having "the power of thunder" that could blow them away from great distance.
Those pike formations were too loose. And were of no use in a battle like this.
А что за фильм?
why did the polearm guys break ranks and charge off? lol
Because they aren't soldiers by the look of it, most likely poor trained militia at best or standard civvies of the colony/town handed a pike.
I guess this encapsulates all that is wrong with Hollywood combat.
Good defensive position? Leave it for no good reason, we must get massacred.
Terrain with lot of concealment? Lets go there so we can be massacred.
Fight in a line, formation, herd? No, lets mix everyone together (ignore how would that even come about), so instead of a battle its actually of duels or getting killed from behind (humans love when that happens to them and seek it out).
These people have no idea what war is and why it is horrible, so they cope by manufacturing nonsense.
One would think Alexander would know how to use his pikes better...
Nha, los tercios eran expertos, esto es una película y siempre dejan en ridículo a los imperios pero España era el pías que mejor manejaba las picas
I love Indians they have no fear
Did cannonballs explode in those days?
The Europeans were lucky that the natives didn't know that firearms were useless when it rained.
Tbf this is very well portrayed this ain't a fort but a settlement, if they don't go out there to fight and reduce their numbers... they will physically be unable to ever leave the fort to gather resources, this is a die or die situation... not much you could do in a situation like that, funny enough there's a lot of books on situations like these you can get, and unlike the movies the west Indians weren't really having the best time of their lives when it came to fighting armoured opponents, specially conquistador style armour like these lot. But the whole battle made no sense... that I won't dissagree