Quick Tip: Using a Torque Wrench on Firearms
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- In today's quick tip, we're discussing the proper use of torque wrenches, particularly when installing an AR-15 barrel nut.
Key Points Covered:
Proper Orientation: It's proper practice to have your torque wrench set up at a 90-degree angle to the tool. This ensures accurate torque application. If the angle is less than 90 degrees, the actual torque applied will be greater, and if it's more than 90 degrees, the torque will be less.
Torque Accuracy: For AR-15 barrel nuts, if you're aiming for 50 foot-pounds, a slight deviation (about 4-5 foot-pounds) due to angle won't significantly impact your build. It's important, but not critical, to be precise within this range.
Practical Example: The video provides a detailed demonstration with a Knights Armament barrel nut wrench, emphasizing that minor deviations in torque application are within acceptable specifications.
For more insights and tips, check out the full video: Quick Tip: Using a Torque Wrench on Firearms.
Feel free to leave your comments or questions below, and don't forget to like and subscribe for more helpful tips from Brownells. Thanks for watching, and see you next time!
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Just put it at 90 degrees for best practice. If you are worried because you did it wrong in the past, chill, it's not a big deal.
And....have your torque calibrated. The error of a non-calibrated torque wrench is likely greater that the error of a socket a few degrees off of 90 degrees.
@@kato1224 don’t forget to ask them about dropping the slide on an empty chamber when you call.
@@CalebSavant sad to say, there's always going to be one in the comments.🫵Keep rockin it brother!✊
Caleb is correct if we all just think about how a lever applies force. At 90 degrees the intended lever to driver distance is as close to the center of that drive as you can be with a crows foot adapter. If you put that crows foot extended in line with the lever then you are increasing torque because you are lengthening your lever.
I've been a mechanic for more than 40 years and have torqued many car and truck parts over the years, but I have never torqued a barrel nut on an AR. I use a large steel crescent wrench I've had for years, I go by feel and get it nice and tight. Never had any trouble with the rifles or pistols I have assembled.
Same here, torque head bolts and maybe wheel nuts/bolts but never used a torque wrench on a barrel because I'm a mechanic and know when it's tight. 😉
I guess some guys think they are professionals when holding the magic torque wrench? I would probably use one torquing heads on a cummins though.
@melissasmess2773 that's the problem you " knowing it's tight" means your are probably deforming the aluminum. It isn't to make sure it's tight it's so make sure it isn't too tight. Anything Over 40 ft lbs on a muzzle device restrict the bore enough to stop a pin Guage
Being a mechanic and machinist as well, I do it by feel also, prep correctly, but I may torque it to the heavier side. Although never had a problem with the multiple rifle etc. I've built.
@@johnadams673I agree. But muzzle devices are completely different especially that end of the barrel, and yes my 80ftlbs could deform the aluminum of the upper threads, but will not affect anything unless you change barrels. Fortunately it hasn't did anything like that to date, the quality of the upper also plays into it as well.
Torque Test Channel went over this about 11 days ago in a video (this info was in part of it). But, the further you are out from the end of the wrench, the higher the torque will be applied. Essentially, you set the wrench value lower than your target.
Example.
Target is 50 ft lb. Normal length is 12", extended is 14" (2" extension). You set the wrench to 42-43 to get your 50 target. A 1" difference is less than the 5 ft lbs that's the mentioned +/- (set to 46).
Another factor is torque wrench length. A shorter wrench will have a much higher difference than a longer one.
You can make it easy to figure out with the Torque Wrench Extension Calculator app (I got it for Android). All that said, using the 90 degree offset is probably the easiest way to NOT have to deal with making changes.
I've always done the 90 degree position while realizing the extreme spread of the specified torque makes the 1-1/2"-ish extra extension if placed inline pretty much a moot point. The "gotta be precise" part of my brain rationalizes that keeping the tool at 90 degrees will minimize any error in the calibration of the torque wrench. I think that could also fall under the category of "making up crap", but that's my rational.
Thanks for the clarification !
its changing the length of the lever
The point being made in the video is that the extension (the specific one he is using) is so short that the difference is negligible.
@@JenkinsStevenD if you're a few degrees off 90, yes, probably doesn't matter a whole lot. But if you're inline and torqueing something more precise and critical, it can matter a lot depending upon the value.
Bro keeps his antiseize in the safe, next to the bazooka.
Well you don't want the projectile to get stuck in the tube do ya?
It's America dude. Of course he does.
That's not anti-sieze. LOL!
AT-4
😂
Yeah. With a regular crows foot it’s negligible. When you’re putting the torque wrench on a armorers tool and it ads a bit more length it’s still in the single digits over the setting. There’s a simple math equation to figure it out to be exact. Multiply the torque # you want by the length of your wrench (from center of the ratchet head, to the line on the center of the handle) then divide what you get by the complete length of the wrench and the added extension combined and that’s what you set the wrench to.
Yeah, the crows foot add a few inches of off-set, unlike a regular socket. But prolly not enough to make a colossal difference.
I believe that Caleb is so technical in all facets of life, that his comb has a digital drag meter, so that he gets the perfect wave in the doo every time
A thorough discussion of torque wrenches is available on the “Torque Wrench Channel”. The torque difference is dependent on the length of the adapter, a longer adapter added to the length of the wrench means a higher torque. Always pull or push a torque wrench using the grip portion of the wrench, it matters. Did you know that an airman going through “fundies” in weapons class once said that the closed end of a combination wrench was used to hang it on the tool board? Partially true!
The closed end is used to break the 🔩 the open end is to remove the 🔩
Oddly good timing for the video
Because there is almost always a range of torque values, although I have encountered situations where an exact torque is specified, I torque to 75% of the max value and call it good.
Well while we are geeking out on torque wrenches, on Caleb’s particular torque wrench, it’s extremely important to remember to set the torque wrench at the proper lower torque setting after using the wrench and before storing for any length of time. It says on the wrench what the proper storage torque setting is.
Well, you've got the "standard" AR Armorer's wrench right there....... It sure would have been nice if you had showed how to use it with a milspec barrel nut.
With an average range of 30 to 80 fpt on the barrel nut it gives a lot of leeway for setting it...
Great video, now add to it any "compound" added to the threads and how it can affect torque
Good information
90 degrees huh, welp I learned something new today. Thanks…
I torque my rings, bases and action screws on my R 700 ........ now i must run off to see if i can find what inch pounds i use.
The title states "torque wrench on firearms" but it seems like this was pretty specific to the AR-15 barrel nut, whereas I see specific torque called for in mounting scopes, etc. - probably would have been good to mention a bit more outside of the one application.
Good Video
Thanks!!
Just flip a couple pages from your old physic book: torque is just force per unit radius. It's only a couple sine and cosine equations away from calculation of that torque between the two pivot points.
In short, you're splitting hair by just moving the pivot point over by 2 inches; it doesn't matter.
I mostly build M-4 style carbines and I never use a torque wrench because the spec is 30-80 ft-lbs. So, when you tighten up your barrel nut after being snug to align the gas tube, 99.9% of the time you will be more than over 40 ft-lbs which is plenty tight.
So in other words, you do it wrong.
@@johnadams673 How is it wrong when my barrels stay tight and half of the armorers in the military don't use torque wrenches?
@jimscott5705 lol wrong and wrong again. They follow the 23&p manual
@@johnadams673 You sound so sure of yourself. My father in law and my wife's uncle were armorors in the navy and said they quit using torque wrenches because you can tell by feel after you do a few tear downs and assemblies.
@@jimscott5705 I probably fixed a few hundred rifles they fucked up
I always do 90 just because its the correct way but if i did it at a weird angle I dont think id worry to much and re-do it or anything like that.
This shouldn't be a problem at all with all the "Master" AR builders we have in this Country. The old "I build ARs all the time" my fav. "On my next build" or "On my last build" I don't know how the Gun manufacturers are staying afloat we have so many.
Honestly it's not super common. I've got a lot of firearms enthusiast friends, and I'm the only one who builds shit. They sometimes actually pay me to make builds for them, but they definitely still buy from big stores. (As do I, btw. Sometimes you just want a specific rifle as per the manufacturer)
@@ultrazerglings2233 I get it, it's just some people go to the extreme trying to make themselves sound like they have a line of people around the corner waiting to get a rifle from them and then list a list of the most exspensive parts found on the market and how they all shot sub MOA and so on. They tell everyone How To do the best thing. I am in the process of doing one myself but not going to sound like I do it all the time and know the best way of doing it. Just look at some of the commits.
Good information and as a car guy, BTDT but good to see again. My question is do you use Blue (242/243) Loctite on some parts?? Seems like a drop on that barrel nut would be good and I have used it on the scope mount screws. Thoughts??
HELL NO
Your wrench should be at 45 degrees from then barrel lug wrench adapter so you get a correct torque tightness . You probably didn’t get what your wrench was set to .
It matters when you are using an old ass barrel nut that needs to be clocked to align with the gas tube. Why use a torque wrench and not set it correctly. Most torque wrenches are not calibrated regularly and are already off 5 ft/lbs. I made a vid on this years ago because companies like yours had "instructional" videos showing it done wrong.
Makes sense.
I use German torque specs for everything. Yup it's guten tight!
The longer your torque adapter is, the more it matters.
The AR upper will constrict around the barrel extension around 55 to 60 ft lbs..After that the extra torque is pointless, other than alignment purpose..
Caleb places the torque wrench on the table like the table's made of glass that could shatter at any moment.
Guessing the reason is not to peak the microphone?
Exactly
Caleb, you’re mostly right with the adapter you were using. But if someone was torquing with a standard armorers wrench, or some adapter that is substantially longer, there will be a very significant difference in torque applied
2:45 you had that backwards
I was always told 35-55. but never had any issues with doing it up by hand. tighten it up til its snug then one good grunt and your good.
Most people can wing it and get it close enough. But a Harbor Freight torque wrench is about 12 bucks with a coupon and they are fairly accurate for what they are, so it doesn't make sense to not have one if you build ARs or do any DIY mechanical work. You can not guess a torque value as close as even a cheap Harbor Freight torque wrench. Even those crappy things are within a pound or three if you store it correctly.
For the Al Gore Rhythm.
Length of handle shouldn't matter. Angle may. The torque is calibrated to the length. Usually, the longer the handle, the higher the torque adjustments on the wrench. If you use a cheater, you may not feel the wrench cam over. And torque is a steady apply of pressure, not a jerking motion.
"I can explain it to you , I can't understand it for you." RTF FOOLS.
well.... i never
So take it apart and do it right.😱😭.Nice videos
I'll say it, just torque it down anywhere near 40lbs and it'll be fine. Don't over think it.
The Internet is full of pseudo-experts, most of whom have probably never done much as touched a wrench.
Sometimes the difference matters, sometimes it doesn’t. Knowing the difference will save you a LOT of time, and give you just as good results-if not better, because now you can spend more time & energy working on the details that *do* matter.
One way is the right way.
The other is wrong.
The only reason you can use the torque wrench in either way and get away with it, is because there's so large a tolerance in the torque spec.
If you were torquing something with a lot tighter tolerances or a lower torque specification like a scope mount screw..... You would break what you're torquing.
There is a math equation to work out the added length that a Crow's foot adds to a wrench.
I get that big tolerance covers you for the bad job torquing and/or to be able to align the gas tube notch on the nut. But apply this to critical small bolts and nut and you will be buying the item again because you just ripped the threads out.
If a manual calls for it during reassembly, you use it ofc you aren't really going to have 1 in a combat situation
Tighten it until it strips the threads, then an additional quarter turn on everything.
The only reason you're using a torque wrench in the first place is for accuracy, so why deliberately do it incorrectly. I own a shooting range and have a very heavy table with a large vice mounted on it. I can clamp an AR in the vice and fire it. I have torqued the barrel nuts from 10 FP up to 90 FP and have found that the sweet spot is around 35 to 50. The longer and heaver the barrel is the higher it needs to be torqued, but only by about +15 FP for barrels as short as 7" up to 20". So a thin 10.5" pistol barrel seems to work best at around 35FP and a 20" heavy barrel works best at around 50FP. If you have a 24" barrel I would start at 50 and test it, then try 60FP and see if it improves or go's down hill, I bet it would improve a bit.
You’re making the aircraft mechanics twitch..
1:38 dont do this 😂. Your wives or plus ones will thank you.
It's less than 5% difference. It doesn't matter.
You're applying more torque, not less to the nut with the adapter towards the front at 0°
Quarter turn from shear.
Don’t care about. Any of this crap unfortunately I don’t own or support gun….
I just use a pipe wrench and tighten everything down until I kind of feel the aluminum giving away and then I stop
Isn't spec for the barrel nut like 30-80ft-lbs? Nothing in the automotive world has a spread like that. Aim for the middle of that and you can do all sorts of things wrong and still be in spec.
Exactly. You could use handfeel and a regular ratchet drive and get it right more than half the time on a spread like that
The reason for that spread is for gas tube alignment on the barrel nuts that use the delta ring assembly, most handguard manufacturers that I have used recommend 40-45 ft-lbs.
@theunofficialresults231 Yep. It's kind of like a castle nut on a ball joint. You torque it to low end of spec, then if it doesn't line up you tighten to the first available notch to put the pin in.
Don't go more than 40 to 45 foot pounds if you try to go to 80 then you will break it.
@kato1224 There is no reason why 40 wouldn't be plenty
I just do 2 oga dogas. Never had a problem.
I give it 2 and a half oga dogas. So that means your doing it wrong
@@manuelmorales5729 dang, I'll have to go take everything apart and add that 1/2 oga doga to them. Thanks for the technical info bro.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
While variation on a barrel but does not matter, the castle nut is different. There is less tolerance for the castle nut torque and it is possible to over torque causing stress on the threads of the receiver extension which can lead to premature failure.
Good observation. I think he should make a video about castle nuts using the Brownells Armorors Wrench with the torque wrench.
The torque wrench reads on a completely different axis than what you are trying to torque, so it's always wrong. But it doesn't really matter. The barrel nut's only function is holding the barrel in place so that it stays in a position where the bolt can fit, and lined up with your optic. All the explosions are contained within the barrel (and locked bolt) assembly.
On several of my sponsored videos for a certain manufacturer I had people argue this very thing...but the manufacturer gave the video the ok before posting it so I really didn't see the problem...
Funny thing is they said the same C...the difference in minimal given the sizable tolerance...
Mathematically speaking, yes, there’s a difference.
REALITY-
1) The calibration on a torque wrench has an allowable +/- deviation.
2) The torque spec on any fastener you’re working with has an allowable range of torque to be applied,.
3) The center-to-center distance a barrel nut wrench would add to the overall length is extremely minuscule.
Getting pissy about this is somebody who truly doesn’t know any better attempting to flex an intellectual muscle they don’t actually have.
This is pretty useful information and I thank you for it.
I am installing a new buffer tube on an AR15 lower receiver. Is it not absolutely necessary I use a torque wrench for that? I have one, but just a plain Doublestar castle nut wrench that cannot work with a torque wrench.
I insist it be at at 90 degrees. I have been a mechanic and and ind=strument tech and various other jobs and skills. The best results have always been following the rules. 90 degrees or you don't need to work on my AR15...it is that simple.
You didn’t speak to torque sequence, speed of torque and the direction you’re facing. I personally stick with what my dad thought me, tighten till it’s “good n tight” (European accent).
Truck mechanic for 30 years. Never worried about it cant always be at 90
NO! That is 100% incorrect. The torque wrench measures from the handle to the head, and you have to compensate for any attachment regardless of angle if you are trying to be spot on. However, almost all torque specs are a range, and a simple crow's foot type wrench won't put you outside of the range if you are set for the middle of it.
If you were torquing a pipe flange in a nuclear power plant, sure it would matter but everything has a tolerance anyway. Which generally allows being over but not under..
That's interesting, I thought the torque would increase if you went in straight because it's longer.
I've barreled hundreds of ar uppers with zero field failures and have never touched one of them... If you are trying to hit a torque spec on a barrel nut you will never be able to line up the gas tube.
Well, that solves the mystery of my wife having a torque wrench in the kitchen!
Well of course! It's for tightening that thingy in the back of the microwave.
@@rickalexander2801 Roger that. She also hits me with it on Wednesdays after 6PM.
Unless you’re dealing with seals or lenses the reason for a torque wrench is to do something tight enough without fucking the threads.
I make it clap when I torque
I use a torque wrench for barrel nuts, but anybody who is not a mechanical idiot can get it within spec with a regular wrench. The torque range is actually pretty wide and 50 lbs is pretty easy to hit with that length of wrench.
Broke a couple of teeth on the Barrel Nut trying to torque.
its basic physics...
You increase the torque when the crows foot is in line with the torque wrench
My castle nut (at the rear over the buffer tube) came loose. Its a complete rifle and it was never staked.
I have a torque wrench but need to get a castle nut attachment, whats the best way to index (time?) The buffer tube so it is straight up and down?
Do people just eyeball it?
If its not totally straight the butpad on the sock will be at an angle, and my OCD will drive me crazy.
The receiver endplate is supposed to keep the buffer tube timed correctly. Improper installation and cheap parts can "strip" out the channel on the tube or the little tab on the endplate. Check there for wear marks.
It's always the clean-cut, mild-mannered guys that have AT-4s in their safes.
I’d like you to do a video on the torque difference if using a crows foot over a Magpul wrench. If using the same torque value what increase is added by the length of the Magpul wrench.
Guess I've been torquing wrong my whole life... but i never had a barrel fall off mid shoot either- lol. - RED
All of that is true, but because we're using a torque wrench with a limiting mechanism, it doesn't matter. The limiting mechanism won't let you over torque the nut, unless you continue to apply force after the break. If you rotate the barrel nut wrench to be at an angle to the torque wrench the force being applied that contributes to the actual torque that spins the nut (i.e. the moment = force x distance) is the applied force times the sin of the angle at which the force is applied (torque = Fsin(theta) x distance). If the barrel nut wrench is at 90 degrees, the sin of 90 degrees = 1. So, 100% of the applied force goes into the torque as work to rotate the nut. If the barrel nut wrench was rotated at 60 degrees (sin 60 = 0.866) then 86.6% of the applied force rotates the nut and you need to apply more force to get nut to rotate and break the torque limiting mechanism than if you kept it at 90. This explanation is the "why" behind the scenes. But the bottom line is - because the torque wrench head has a torque limiting mechanism in it, it won't let you over torque the barrel nut. So it doesn't matter. However, for good practice and to make sure 100% of your force translates into work to move the nut, keep it at 90 degrees.
I torque a lot of things on cars. Some things don't matter that much. When replacing a clothers dryer pulley, it said to torque the screws in inch/pounds. Since I had a wrench I did it. It tightened the screws more than I would have without the wrench. I kept wondering if the screws would break or strip out, but they didn't. I don't know if the screws would have vibrated out if I had not tightend them to specs. Many years later, it still dries clothes.
I’ve only ever torqued scope mounts. It’s a torque screwdriver, so no lever involved. Still this is interesting stuff! I’ve learned something new.
When torquing down the barrel nut, what is the minimum safe distance for the back blast on that shoulder fired launcher?
Good Video. The new lever arm ratio to nominal will be the change in your torque. If it's enough to matter could depend on whether you're already at the limits of the allowable range.
"stop picking the pepper out of the fly shit", as my dad would say ! great job Caleb, but again, u forgot to say 'kung fu grip'.. cheers from the woods of Maine ! Semper Fi !
👍
Great video
A longer *Moment Arm* will increase the *pound-foot (lb⋅ft)* of torque, not reduce it as you stated. Anyway, point taken...may not really matter on an AR barrel, but does on the Aircraft I fly
I came across a video from Torque Test Channel, titled "You're Using a Torque Wrench Wrong: MythBusting 10 Do's & Dont's".
It was very interesting.
Brownells likely watched the same video.
That's the first thing I thought of too when I saw this video. The surprising factoid I took away from that video was how much lube on the threads effects the final torque.
@@TuttleScott working in aviation where i swear to god some people have an unhealthy obsession with lubing threads i can absolutely attest to that
Just torque it until something breaks, and on the next one, go a little less.
Good piece of advice. I use Torque Wrenches regularly on Vehicles. I’ve built out Custom ARs and Remington 700s with Remage Barreles. Those are the only two Applications I’ve encountered where a Lb-Ft Torque Wrench is to be used. Every other torque rating is measured in Lb-In so you will need a Torque Driver that measures in that value. Also keep in mind that 12 lb-in is 1 lb-ft so like on a Geissele Rail Forend, the two main Set Screws are reared for 5 lb-ft in the instructions, which is also 60 lb-in. Things you gotta be mindful of. The 90-degree position depends on whether I’m mounting or removing a Barrel. If mounting the Barrel, I use the 90-Degree Position. If removing the Barrel, I go 0-Degree for slightly more leverage to loosen the Barrel Nut. I’ve been tinkering, building, fixing, tricking out, all over anything Mechanical since I was old enough to climb counters, so videos like this and literature about it are things I’m all over. Thanks for posting.
If you’re ever watching a video and they say “just give it a good tighten.”
Run.
Any extension on the torque ratchet will and leverage and screw torque spec.
The part of the wrench with the square drive is called the hinge. It is a lever whose pivot point is the pin at the top of the tube. Think of it like a school ground teeter-toter. One side goes from the pivot pin to the center of the square drive, the other goes from the pivot pin, down inside the tube where a spring presses a steel cube against the hinge. If you attach a crowsfoot to the sqdr, inline with the wrench, you've lengthened one end of the lever. Using the crowsfoot at 90 degrees, minimizes the change in length. Torque wrenches of the style shown are best used where the desired torque value is 75% of the maximum range of the wrench.
Found the guy bitching in the comment sections!